0:00:21 > 0:00:23Good evening and welcome to CF99.
0:00:23 > 0:00:26Tonight, on St Dwynwen's Day and on Burns Night,
0:00:26 > 0:00:28we'll be looking at the future of the UK.
0:00:28 > 0:00:32Is a divorce on the cards in the new Act of Union?
0:00:32 > 0:00:35Is the call for a parliament for England on the increase?
0:00:35 > 0:00:38More than enough to discuss.
0:00:38 > 0:00:42How about putting the red roses and the haggis to one side for half an hour.
0:00:42 > 0:00:45Join in the discussion by Tweeting us on #CF99.
0:00:45 > 0:00:50The three who have eaten their porridge ready for a debate tonight
0:00:50 > 0:00:53are the AMs, Bethan Jenkins from Plaid Cymru
0:00:53 > 0:00:55and Paul Davies from the Conservatives.
0:00:55 > 0:00:58Also joining us is Professor Richard Wyn Jones
0:00:58 > 0:01:01from the Wales Governance Centre at Cardiff University.
0:01:01 > 0:01:05He's in our Westminster studio. Thanks for your company.
0:01:05 > 0:01:08Do you agree that Scotland should be an independent country?
0:01:08 > 0:01:12That's the question Alex Salmond wants Scottish people
0:01:12 > 0:01:14to answer in autumn 2014.
0:01:14 > 0:01:18The debate has been started but plenty to decide.
0:01:18 > 0:01:21Will there be a second question, devo-max, perhaps,
0:01:21 > 0:01:24that would offer further powers to the Scottish Parliament.
0:01:24 > 0:01:26Who will be allowed to vote?
0:01:26 > 0:01:30The big question for us is what will be the implications of the debate
0:01:30 > 0:01:32and the vote for us in Wales.
0:01:32 > 0:01:33Owain Clarke is in Edinburgh.
0:01:41 > 0:01:44A referendum on independence isn't just an idea or aspiration
0:01:44 > 0:01:46these days but an event.
0:01:46 > 0:01:49They are already preparing the ground.
0:01:49 > 0:01:52Despite the rows over details, nobody's in any doubt
0:01:52 > 0:01:55that the vote will take place in three years' time.
0:01:55 > 0:01:57There will be celebrations here tonight.
0:01:57 > 0:02:00An' cut ye up wi' ready slight.
0:02:00 > 0:02:04They won't be praising Mr Salmond's vision, but the life
0:02:04 > 0:02:08of one of the nation's most famous people, the poet, Robbie Burns.
0:02:08 > 0:02:13It's possibly no coincidence that Mr Salmond has chosen this day
0:02:13 > 0:02:17to outline the preparation he wants to see in the referendum.
0:02:18 > 0:02:23From poet to literary legend, Burns' journey was a remarkable one.
0:02:23 > 0:02:26Three centuries on from the 1707 Union,
0:02:26 > 0:02:31the people of Scotland elected a majority pro-independence government,
0:02:31 > 0:02:35the government I'm proud to lead to revisit that decision.
0:02:36 > 0:02:39This time the decision will be made democratically
0:02:39 > 0:02:41by the people of Scotland.
0:02:41 > 0:02:45Over breakfast, an opportunity to discuss it
0:02:45 > 0:02:47with some students in Edinburgh.
0:02:47 > 0:02:51For Scottish people who live in Edinburgh and in Scotland,
0:02:51 > 0:02:55the economy, politics, education, health, the welfare state
0:02:55 > 0:02:58are things that will turn opinion.
0:02:58 > 0:03:02These are the things that Salmond needs to concentrate on.
0:03:02 > 0:03:08How important is it that Salmond has this choice in the referendum
0:03:08 > 0:03:13from devolving financial powers, this idea of devo-max.
0:03:13 > 0:03:20I would argue it's more than just policy
0:03:20 > 0:03:23and that's what he really wants.
0:03:23 > 0:03:27I think he would be more than happy with devo-max
0:03:27 > 0:03:30and I think that's what will happen.
0:03:30 > 0:03:33The Scottish people I've spoken to
0:03:33 > 0:03:36and from what I've been reading in the papers,
0:03:36 > 0:03:38I get the feeling they'd be more than happy
0:03:38 > 0:03:43and supportive of devo-max and independence is a step too far.
0:03:45 > 0:03:48What would the affects be outside Holyrood?
0:03:48 > 0:03:53Not everyone knows that one part of Wales has beaten Alex Salmond to it.
0:03:54 > 0:03:59# Wales, England and Llanrwst!#
0:04:01 > 0:04:06In 1947, this place, Llanrwst, tried for membership to the UN
0:04:06 > 0:04:10because Llywelyn ap Gruffydd in the 13th century
0:04:10 > 0:04:13had earmarked the town as an independent state.
0:04:13 > 0:04:17Perhaps some would wonder what would Llanrwst's status would be
0:04:17 > 0:04:19if the UK should split,
0:04:19 > 0:04:23but the effect on Wales is definitely being discussed.
0:04:23 > 0:04:27This is something for the Scottish electorate
0:04:27 > 0:04:29but it will effect everyone in the UK.
0:04:29 > 0:04:34That's why it's something we, in Wales, have to take an interest in.
0:04:34 > 0:04:38Scotland leaving the UK would impact on Wales.
0:04:38 > 0:04:40In my opinion it would be disappointing
0:04:40 > 0:04:44if they left the UK, I think Scotland strengthens
0:04:44 > 0:04:51the relationship between the different areas of the UK.
0:04:51 > 0:04:57Naturally, Holyrood and Alex Salmond is centre of attention today.
0:04:57 > 0:05:00But the excitement of the debate in Scotland
0:05:00 > 0:05:02over the next few years
0:05:02 > 0:05:06will have repercussions further than this place.
0:05:08 > 0:05:10Bethan Jenkins, you must be jealous
0:05:10 > 0:05:13watching what's happening in Scotland,
0:05:13 > 0:05:16but nothing has been won by Alex Salmond yet.
0:05:16 > 0:05:18He could lose.
0:05:18 > 0:05:24I think it's an exciting time for Scotland and Nationalists
0:05:24 > 0:05:27to see what the SNP has done in Government
0:05:27 > 0:05:30and what it is offering with regard to having a referendum
0:05:30 > 0:05:33on independence for Scotland.
0:05:33 > 0:05:37Today we've seen the question and details about the consultation.
0:05:37 > 0:05:42I think Scotland should decide when that happens.
0:05:47 > 0:05:53We have to look at what's happening to see how Wales will be affected.
0:05:53 > 0:05:59What about this second question, this idea of a devo-max?
0:05:59 > 0:06:02That idea seems to be very popular.
0:06:02 > 0:06:05But it's hard to see how a referendum
0:06:05 > 0:06:09that gave different choices would work.
0:06:09 > 0:06:11From what I understand,
0:06:11 > 0:06:15it will be a part of the consultation that'll take place.
0:06:15 > 0:06:19I think it's important that we at least consider this option
0:06:19 > 0:06:23because, maybe people aren't totally confident at the moment
0:06:23 > 0:06:26with complete independence, but want more powers.
0:06:26 > 0:06:31That is what we want in Wales with more powers over the police
0:06:31 > 0:06:34and broadcasting, for example.
0:06:34 > 0:06:37Richard Wyn Jones, on the second question.
0:06:37 > 0:06:42Is Alex Salmond inviting Labour to adopt devo-max?
0:06:42 > 0:06:47He doesn't want it himself, but wants it on the paper.
0:06:47 > 0:06:51Will Labour adopt it?
0:06:51 > 0:06:54I was listening to Carwyn Jones talking
0:06:54 > 0:06:58and expressing these concerns.
0:06:58 > 0:07:02What strikes me is that if Carwyn Jones
0:07:02 > 0:07:07feels so strongly about the future of Scotland,
0:07:07 > 0:07:13then it's amazing that he hasn't got more power on this matter
0:07:13 > 0:07:17as the main Labour politician in Wales.
0:07:17 > 0:07:21As a Labour politician isn't knocking Ed Miliband's door
0:07:21 > 0:07:23every day and asking him,
0:07:23 > 0:07:28why aren't you offering something like devo-max to us?
0:07:28 > 0:07:30Why are you sticking to Calman
0:07:30 > 0:07:34and the process that has been a disaster for the parties?
0:07:34 > 0:07:40With regard to Alex Salmond himself, this is perfect.
0:07:40 > 0:07:44If the Unionist Parties do not offer
0:07:44 > 0:07:48something better than Calman,
0:07:48 > 0:07:52then this measure going through the Parliament behind me
0:07:52 > 0:07:56has lost all credibility.
0:07:56 > 0:08:01And if they don't do that, the SNP is going to be in a situation
0:08:01 > 0:08:06where it can say to the voters in Scotland,
0:08:06 > 0:08:09"Look, we've given the Unionist Parties this offer,
0:08:09 > 0:08:13but they have rejected it.
0:08:13 > 0:08:17They want to stick with something that's lost all credibility.
0:08:17 > 0:08:21What about it? Let's go for it."
0:08:21 > 0:08:27It strikes me the Unionists are taking an incredible gamble.
0:08:27 > 0:08:31What about the "No" campaign?
0:08:31 > 0:08:35Paul Davies, do you agree with most people that a Tory leader
0:08:35 > 0:08:36shouldn't be a leader.
0:08:36 > 0:08:41The Scots don't want a Tory from Eton telling them what to do?
0:08:41 > 0:08:44It's unfortunate with regard to timing?
0:08:44 > 0:08:46I don't think so.
0:08:46 > 0:08:49What's important is that the people of Scotland
0:08:49 > 0:08:54have the right to a referendum if that is what they want.
0:08:54 > 0:08:57Alex Salmond has at last made a statement today
0:08:57 > 0:09:04about the question, but it's up to the people of Scotland in the end.
0:09:04 > 0:09:10I don't think the people of Scotland will vote in favour of independence
0:09:10 > 0:09:15when that time comes.
0:09:15 > 0:09:17But who should lead the "No" campaign then?
0:09:17 > 0:09:23I think the question should be asked earlier than 2014
0:09:23 > 0:09:26because there will be this uncertainty now.
0:09:26 > 0:09:29But who should lead the "No" campaign?
0:09:29 > 0:09:32I think they should hold the referendum as soon as possible.
0:09:32 > 0:09:35Who should lead the "No" campaign?
0:09:35 > 0:09:39It's matter for politicians in Scotland I think.
0:09:39 > 0:09:43We'll have to see who will lead that campaign.
0:09:43 > 0:09:47A part of the problem here for the Conservatives
0:09:47 > 0:09:53and Labour is that a disastrous thing for the campaign
0:09:53 > 0:09:58would be a perception that London chose the leader of the campaign
0:09:58 > 0:09:59and was interfering.
0:09:59 > 0:10:02Alex Salmond has created
0:10:02 > 0:10:07a very clever situation here, hasn't he?
0:10:07 > 0:10:13It's as if he appears to be talking for Scotland,
0:10:13 > 0:10:17and the UK Government is talking as a foreign Government.
0:10:17 > 0:10:23The Unionist Parties have created this situation for themselves.
0:10:23 > 0:10:27I was listening to Paul Davies, and I respect him
0:10:27 > 0:10:29but the SNP wanted a referendum
0:10:29 > 0:10:34during the last Parliament between 2007 and 2011.
0:10:34 > 0:10:42The Unionist Parties stopped it at that time.
0:10:42 > 0:10:47Once the SNP wins, the Unionist Parties change their position
0:10:47 > 0:10:51and say they want a referendum tomorrow.
0:10:51 > 0:10:57There is no credibility.
0:10:57 > 0:11:01It's no surprise that Alex Salmond is on top of the world.
0:11:01 > 0:11:07If you say the SNP wants a referendum as soon as possible,
0:11:09 > 0:11:12why don't they hold the referendum this year?
0:11:12 > 0:11:17What I'm saying is that the SNP has tried to get a measure
0:11:17 > 0:11:21through the Scottish Parliament, but didn't push it through
0:11:21 > 0:11:23because the Unionist Parties said the Scottish people
0:11:23 > 0:11:27should not vote be able to vote on this matter.
0:11:27 > 0:11:31My point is this, the problem is the Unionist Parties
0:11:31 > 0:11:35don't have any strategy as far as I can see.
0:11:35 > 0:11:39They're just responding over time.
0:11:39 > 0:11:45There is no consistency, so it's easy for the SNP to be in control.
0:11:45 > 0:11:50Bethan Jenkins, let's look at the knock-on effect in Wales.
0:11:50 > 0:11:57Carwyn Jones says any change would have an effect on Wales.
0:11:57 > 0:12:03We're only 11 months on from the last referendum on devolution in Wales.
0:12:03 > 0:12:06They are talking about
0:12:06 > 0:12:11an independence referendum in Wales by 2020.
0:12:11 > 0:12:14Is it inevitable we move in that direction now?
0:12:14 > 0:12:18If Scotland becomes independent,
0:12:18 > 0:12:21then we'll have to discuss the future of the UK.
0:12:21 > 0:12:26Today we've heard David Melding, the Conservative Assembly member,
0:12:26 > 0:12:31talking about federalisation within the UK.
0:12:31 > 0:12:33I think the Conservatives need to catch up
0:12:33 > 0:12:36with the discussion in the context of the constitution
0:12:36 > 0:12:40or future of Wales because Scotland is so close to independence now.
0:12:40 > 0:12:42A British federal, how would that work?
0:12:42 > 0:12:48I have been campaigning with David Melding for a federal system.
0:12:48 > 0:12:53I think that is the only way we're going to protect the UK.
0:12:53 > 0:12:59I want to see a federal system in Britain.
0:12:59 > 0:13:04Richard, do you think there is much chance
0:13:04 > 0:13:07of having a federal system?
0:13:07 > 0:13:10Would it have worked? Is it too late for Scotland?
0:13:10 > 0:13:14You could argue that the best time to do this
0:13:14 > 0:13:17would have been before the great war.
0:13:17 > 0:13:23The problem with federalism and this has been discussed time and again
0:13:23 > 0:13:25and I don't want to go over this.
0:13:25 > 0:13:29The problem with federalism is the size of England.
0:13:29 > 0:13:32England is so large compared to the other countries.
0:13:32 > 0:13:38Nobody has offered some kind of an idea of how a federal system
0:13:38 > 0:13:42could work with such one large country within it.
0:13:42 > 0:13:47Until somebody does offer a way of doing that, this idea,
0:13:47 > 0:13:53which is favoured by many politicians, across the parties
0:13:53 > 0:13:58is not going to happen.
0:13:58 > 0:14:00Which leads us perfectly to our next item.
0:14:00 > 0:14:04The people of England have been quite quiet,
0:14:04 > 0:14:08as Wales and Scotland start on their devolution paths.
0:14:08 > 0:14:11But with Wales voting in favour of more powers for the Assembly
0:14:11 > 0:14:15and Alex Salmond calling for independence for Scotland,
0:14:15 > 0:14:19it seems voters in England are starting to take notice
0:14:19 > 0:14:22of what's happening.
0:14:22 > 0:14:26Geographically, this is all that separates Wales and England.
0:14:26 > 0:14:31Politically, the gap between the two countries is growing.
0:14:31 > 0:14:35A report shows that an increasing number of voters in England
0:14:35 > 0:14:41believe that the system of devolution is not fair on them.
0:14:41 > 0:14:45Many people in England believe, unfairly perhaps,
0:14:45 > 0:14:48that Wales and Scotland are profiting more than them.
0:14:48 > 0:14:51The figures don't show that, but that is the feeling.
0:14:51 > 0:14:57A lot of people feel that devolution has not been to their advantage.
0:14:57 > 0:15:00The research by the Institute for Public Policy Research,
0:15:00 > 0:15:03as well as Cardiff and Edinburgh universities,
0:15:03 > 0:15:08show a significant increase in the number of people over Offa's Dyke
0:15:08 > 0:15:11who feel the Assembly has had a negative impact
0:15:11 > 0:15:14on the way Britain is governed.
0:15:14 > 0:15:1931% thought the effect of the Assembly on British governance
0:15:19 > 0:15:24is negative, compared to 11% in 2007.
0:15:24 > 0:15:27While politicians in Wales are calling for more money
0:15:27 > 0:15:31for the Assembly, over a quarter of those asked
0:15:31 > 0:15:35thought Wales receives more than its share of public money.
0:15:35 > 0:15:39And only 7% thought England gets more than its fair share
0:15:39 > 0:15:40of the money.
0:15:40 > 0:15:4679% said only English MPs should vote on issues
0:15:46 > 0:15:48that only affect England.
0:15:48 > 0:15:53As Scotland's confidence and, to a degree, Wales' confidence develops,
0:15:53 > 0:15:58I think awareness of an English national identity grows at the same time.
0:15:58 > 0:16:00This man, Paul Silk,
0:16:00 > 0:16:05has already started assessing the way the Assembly is funded.
0:16:05 > 0:16:08The British Government has established a commission
0:16:08 > 0:16:11to look at the West Lothian Question.
0:16:11 > 0:16:15Personally, I don't want the situation to change.
0:16:15 > 0:16:17I think it's right as it is.
0:16:17 > 0:16:22But other people don't agree and that's why we've established
0:16:22 > 0:16:25a commission to look at the way we can deal with this.
0:16:25 > 0:16:32There is a stronger English identity but we don't think it's a problem.
0:16:32 > 0:16:34I think it's natural.
0:16:34 > 0:16:39The report warns that politicians need to welcome this growth
0:16:39 > 0:16:42in English identity because it's becoming clear
0:16:42 > 0:16:46that the attitudes of English people are just as crucial in framing
0:16:46 > 0:16:51the debate on the future constitution of the United Kingdom.
0:16:51 > 0:16:55Richard Wyn Jones, one of the authors of that report,
0:16:55 > 0:17:00you say the sleeping dog is now awake.
0:17:00 > 0:17:03Will a strong English identity
0:17:03 > 0:17:08become a dangerous form of nationalism, if you like?
0:17:08 > 0:17:10Not necessarily.
0:17:10 > 0:17:13There has been a view from the left
0:17:13 > 0:17:17that an English identity in itself is xenophobic.
0:17:17 > 0:17:19I think that's unfair.
0:17:19 > 0:17:25The English identity has become politicised.
0:17:25 > 0:17:30It's becoming wrapped up in politics.
0:17:30 > 0:17:34What we've found in the campaign is that the more you feel
0:17:34 > 0:17:38England is being treated unfairly in the current constitution,
0:17:38 > 0:17:43the more you feel the political constitution should be adapted
0:17:43 > 0:17:46to recognise England as a nation.
0:17:46 > 0:17:48At the moment, England exists
0:17:48 > 0:17:52because Scotland has gone in one direction, Wales in another,
0:17:52 > 0:17:55and Northern Ireland in another direction.
0:17:55 > 0:17:59England is what you have left. But it isn't treated as "England".
0:17:59 > 0:18:03It's treated as "Britain". We don't discuss the English identity.
0:18:03 > 0:18:06People in England are unhappy about that.
0:18:06 > 0:18:12But what isn't clear is what they want as a constitutional solution.
0:18:12 > 0:18:15If you ask the question in one way,
0:18:15 > 0:18:17they say they want a parliament for England.
0:18:17 > 0:18:19If you ask it in another way,
0:18:19 > 0:18:24they say they want to stop MPs from countries beyond England
0:18:24 > 0:18:29and Westminster from voting on issues that only relate to England.
0:18:29 > 0:18:35None of the political parties are comfortable discussing this
0:18:35 > 0:18:37so there's no political leadership
0:18:37 > 0:18:40to this feeling that's developing in England.
0:18:40 > 0:18:42That could be the danger.
0:18:42 > 0:18:46Let's talk about that, Paul.
0:18:46 > 0:18:50For the Conservative Party, the traditional unionist party,
0:18:50 > 0:18:55there are voices within the party, perhaps from the Eurosceptic wing,
0:18:55 > 0:19:02that appear to be happy enough to voice a nationalistic message
0:19:02 > 0:19:08and that could be equally as damaging to the UK as Alex Salmond's message.
0:19:08 > 0:19:10I'm not sure about that.
0:19:10 > 0:19:16I think, and Richard might accuse me of being too simplistic,
0:19:16 > 0:19:20but that's why it's important that we see a federal system
0:19:20 > 0:19:22to deal with the tensions in England.
0:19:22 > 0:19:26If I was a Conservative Member in England,
0:19:26 > 0:19:29I'd be campaigning strongly for an English parliament.
0:19:29 > 0:19:32I think we need a balance...
0:19:32 > 0:19:35- A parliament for England would be your preference?- Definitely.
0:19:35 > 0:19:41That would be my choice. We have to see a balance across the UK.
0:19:41 > 0:19:45A parliament in Wales, England, Scotland and Northern Ireland.
0:19:45 > 0:19:48That's what I think the solution is.
0:19:48 > 0:19:51What about the issue of size?
0:19:51 > 0:19:57Somebody told me it's like trying to establish a federal system between California and Connecticut.
0:19:57 > 0:19:59England is so big.
0:19:59 > 0:20:03I don't see the problem because you can devolve
0:20:03 > 0:20:07fields like education and health to the English parliament.
0:20:07 > 0:20:11We would have a UK parliament to deal with foreign issues,
0:20:11 > 0:20:15defence issues, benefits, taxes perhaps.
0:20:15 > 0:20:18That's what the UK Government would deal with.
0:20:18 > 0:20:21I don't see a problem with a federal system.
0:20:21 > 0:20:25I think the Tory Party will deal with this matter in the end.
0:20:25 > 0:20:28Bethan Jenkins, Alex Salmond spoke in London last night.
0:20:28 > 0:20:31He's going on a tour around England now.
0:20:31 > 0:20:36He wants to inspire this idea of national identity and nationalism
0:20:36 > 0:20:38in England, doesn't he?
0:20:38 > 0:20:40It's in his interest.
0:20:40 > 0:20:43Would it be in your interest to strengthen that feeling in Wales?
0:20:43 > 0:20:48Well, this research has arrived at an excellent time for Alex Salmond
0:20:48 > 0:20:51- to justify... - And excellent for Richard Wyn!
0:20:51 > 0:20:58To justify that people in England now feel a sense of nationalism,
0:20:58 > 0:21:03where they didn't feel as strongly because of the nature of devolution.
0:21:03 > 0:21:08What I would say is, it's obvious that the Westminster Government
0:21:08 > 0:21:12won't implement such radical and popular policies
0:21:12 > 0:21:16because they want Welsh and Scottish policies.
0:21:16 > 0:21:19They're jealous of what we do in Wales.
0:21:19 > 0:21:24We need to ask why they're unhappy with what they have at the moment.
0:21:24 > 0:21:26Would it be convenient for you
0:21:26 > 0:21:30to see a growth in this sense of English identity?
0:21:30 > 0:21:36I think it's good that they feel some sort of link with England
0:21:36 > 0:21:41because previously the BNP has been linked with the English flag,
0:21:41 > 0:21:46rather than a feeling of pride and confidence in the country.
0:21:46 > 0:21:50That's why they say, "I'm British more than English".
0:21:50 > 0:21:53They didn't want to discuss those things.
0:21:53 > 0:21:56Bethan's happy that people in England are unhappy
0:21:56 > 0:22:01because she wants England to tell us to be independent.
0:22:01 > 0:22:06That's why it's important that the British parties
0:22:06 > 0:22:08deal with this issue.
0:22:08 > 0:22:14We need a debate on this and the only way we can solve this is with a federal system.
0:22:14 > 0:22:17Richard, decades ago, Gwynfor Evans wrote a book
0:22:17 > 0:22:20called Diwedd Prydeindod (The End of Britishness).
0:22:20 > 0:22:25Is that what we're seeing, even in England?
0:22:25 > 0:22:29No, I think that's a bit of a sweeping statement.
0:22:29 > 0:22:35If you look at the patterns of national identity in Wales, Scotland
0:22:35 > 0:22:40and England, the majority still feel some sense
0:22:40 > 0:22:42of dual-nationality.
0:22:42 > 0:22:44English and British, for example.
0:22:44 > 0:22:49But what's happening more in England than anywhere else
0:22:49 > 0:22:53is that the English identity is being emphasised more and more.
0:22:53 > 0:22:59The challenge for people who want to see the continuation of the UK
0:22:59 > 0:23:06is to find an institutional system which allows people to express
0:23:06 > 0:23:13their Welsh, English or Scottish identity within a British framework.
0:23:13 > 0:23:17Sorry, Richard, a quick word from the other two to close.
0:23:17 > 0:23:21Will we be sitting here in four years' time or so
0:23:21 > 0:23:25discussing a new Act of Union, Bethan Jenkins?
0:23:25 > 0:23:27With what's happening in Scotland,
0:23:27 > 0:23:31it's inevitable that there will be changes beyond our control
0:23:31 > 0:23:34so we will be discussing issues like this in the future.
0:23:34 > 0:23:38Paul Davies, is this the beginning of the end for the UK?
0:23:38 > 0:23:42No, I don't think so. I don't see Scotland leaving the UK.
0:23:42 > 0:23:48We'll see. A message from 'Biscuits', who says it's been an important and interesting discussion.
0:23:48 > 0:23:50That's it for tonight.
0:23:50 > 0:23:53We'll be back at the same time next week.
0:23:53 > 0:23:59- Thank you for your company. - Are there biscuits?- Good night.
0:23:59 > 0:24:02Goodbye. See you next week.