0:00:19 > 0:00:23Good evening and welcome to the Senedd for half an hour
0:00:23 > 0:00:25of live and lively discussion.
0:00:25 > 0:00:31Tonight, does Labour have a mountain to climb on a council level?
0:00:31 > 0:00:33And following the banking bonuses row,
0:00:33 > 0:00:36we turn our attention to a very different type of bank,
0:00:36 > 0:00:40the food banks which are on the rise here in Wales.
0:00:40 > 0:00:43If you want to join in on tonight's discussion,
0:00:43 > 0:00:47you're welcome to do so via Twitter by using the hashtag #CF99.
0:00:47 > 0:00:52Joining us tonight is Llanelli's Labour AM, Keith Davies,
0:00:52 > 0:00:54policy director at Plaid Cymru, Nerys Evans
0:00:54 > 0:00:57and the Conservative Dr Felix Aubel.
0:00:57 > 0:00:59Welcome to you all.
0:00:59 > 0:01:03In 10 weeks' time, local elections are to be held here in Wales.
0:01:03 > 0:01:08The Labour party will be eager to build on its 2008 performance,
0:01:08 > 0:01:12when it lost six councils in its traditional strongholds.
0:01:12 > 0:01:15Quite a blow. And there was more to come.
0:01:15 > 0:01:17A year later Labour was usurped
0:01:17 > 0:01:20as the main party in the European elections.
0:01:20 > 0:01:24And in the 2010 general election they received another kick
0:01:24 > 0:01:28as they saw their lowest share of the vote
0:01:28 > 0:01:30since the end of the First World War.
0:01:30 > 0:01:33Last year, the party's fortunes were reversed
0:01:33 > 0:01:36as it enjoyed its best ever Assembly results.
0:01:36 > 0:01:39James Williams take as look at how the party is looking
0:01:39 > 0:01:42in the run-up to the local elections.
0:01:48 > 0:01:50The south Wales valleys,
0:01:50 > 0:01:52the spiritual home of the Labour Party
0:01:52 > 0:01:54and party greats such as Keir Hardie,
0:01:54 > 0:01:57Aneurin Bevan and Neil Kinnock.
0:01:57 > 0:02:00The party had its roots in the heavy industries,
0:02:00 > 0:02:02which have since disappeared.
0:02:04 > 0:02:07Apparently, when Labour was at its strongest in the Valleys,
0:02:07 > 0:02:11they weighed their votes rather than counting them.
0:02:11 > 0:02:13But those days have gone.
0:02:13 > 0:02:15The party can no longer take votes
0:02:15 > 0:02:19in areas such as this in Caerphilly for granted.
0:02:19 > 0:02:21This became clear on May Day 2008,
0:02:21 > 0:02:24when the political landscape here changed colour
0:02:24 > 0:02:27for the first time in a generation.
0:02:27 > 0:02:30The party lost control of six councils that night.
0:02:30 > 0:02:32With Blaenau Gwent, Caerphilly,
0:02:32 > 0:02:35Merthyr Tydfil and Torfaen escaping their grip.
0:02:35 > 0:02:38As the first local elections since then are about to take place,
0:02:38 > 0:02:41the party conference took place in Cardiff over the weekend
0:02:41 > 0:02:45and members were full of confidence ahead of the forthcoming challenge.
0:02:45 > 0:02:49When we received a beating in 2008,
0:02:49 > 0:02:53we had been in power in Westminster for 11 years at the time.
0:02:53 > 0:02:58It's natural that people use the council vote as a protest vote.
0:02:58 > 0:03:01Now people are seeing what's happening with the
0:03:01 > 0:03:03Labour Party out of power in Westminster.
0:03:03 > 0:03:07They want them to return and they trust Labour on a local level.
0:03:07 > 0:03:12Some say, the result in 2008 was a result of Gordon Brown's leadership.
0:03:12 > 0:03:17The decision to get rid of the 10p tax rate was the most damaging move.
0:03:17 > 0:03:22That's how a Labour MP who opposed the policy saw the situation.
0:03:22 > 0:03:27These days they are concentrating on the current government policies.
0:03:27 > 0:03:29The 10p tax was one of the factors
0:03:29 > 0:03:33but I think people are now seeing that the whole picture.
0:03:33 > 0:03:37They are seeing they are losing money from their pockets.
0:03:37 > 0:03:42They can see that the Conservatives are cutting too much,
0:03:42 > 0:03:45too quickly and too deep.
0:03:45 > 0:03:48In his speech to the party,
0:03:48 > 0:03:51the Labour leader Ed Miliband praised the party in Wales
0:03:51 > 0:03:53for deviating from these policies.
0:03:53 > 0:03:57Standing up for Wales is certain to lead to success
0:03:57 > 0:04:00in the May elections, according to some.
0:04:00 > 0:04:06People are feeling confident because of what we're doing as a government
0:04:06 > 0:04:10here in Wales and we are showing the way to Britain,
0:04:10 > 0:04:12showing people what we can do in government in Wales.
0:04:12 > 0:04:14We are showing what Labour can do.
0:04:14 > 0:04:17We're showing that there's an alternative
0:04:17 > 0:04:20to what the Conservatives are offering in London.
0:04:20 > 0:04:23I think that will be transferred onto the vote.
0:04:23 > 0:04:26Ed Miliband also praised Carwyn Jones personally.
0:04:26 > 0:04:29He leads the only Labour Government in Britain.
0:04:29 > 0:04:33He led Labour to their best performance
0:04:33 > 0:04:37since devolution in the Assembly last year.
0:04:37 > 0:04:41Ed Miliband is struggling to communicate his vision to votes.
0:04:41 > 0:04:45Will Ed Miliband's leadership problem for candidates
0:04:45 > 0:04:47when they campaign on the doorstep?
0:04:48 > 0:04:50Ed is a good leader.
0:04:50 > 0:04:53He's an honest leader, he's growing into his role
0:04:53 > 0:04:55and people have confidence in him.
0:04:55 > 0:04:59We also have Carwyn Jones, he leads us in Cardiff,
0:04:59 > 0:05:02he is our leader in Wales.
0:05:02 > 0:05:05He's highly respected by voters.
0:05:05 > 0:05:10The challenge for the party is to build on its success of last May.
0:05:10 > 0:05:13It's expected they will do so in a couple of months.
0:05:13 > 0:05:16Some believe more will need to be done
0:05:16 > 0:05:19than simply regaining traditional strongholds.
0:05:19 > 0:05:22We're keen to ensure that we don't remain
0:05:22 > 0:05:26in our traditional strongholds, we need to go into rural areas
0:05:26 > 0:05:32and gain support from everywhere, rather than those strongholds.
0:05:33 > 0:05:36As recent history has shown,
0:05:36 > 0:05:40Labour can't take Valleys votes for granted.
0:05:43 > 0:05:45James Williams.
0:05:45 > 0:05:47We'll look at all the parties
0:05:47 > 0:05:49and their hopes for the elections in turn.
0:05:49 > 0:05:52Keith, in the olden days, it is was easy.
0:05:52 > 0:05:56If Labour were in Government in Westminster, you lost council seats.
0:05:56 > 0:05:59If they were the opposition party in Westminster, you won them back.
0:05:59 > 0:06:02It's different this time, there is a Labour Government,
0:06:02 > 0:06:05the Labour Government in Cardiff?
0:06:05 > 0:06:08I think that will help us.
0:06:08 > 0:06:12I lost my seat in 2008 as a councillor in Carmarthenshire.
0:06:12 > 0:06:16The main reason was what Nia Griffith was referring to,
0:06:16 > 0:06:19the 10p in the £1 on income tax.
0:06:19 > 0:06:23We also heard a lot about Iraq and Afghanistan on the doorstep.
0:06:23 > 0:06:27Now we have a Government in Wales and we can legislate in Cardiff.
0:06:27 > 0:06:30I must say, our manifesto last year was very good.
0:06:30 > 0:06:33That's why we won so many seats.
0:06:33 > 0:06:36This was sent in on Twitter, by Cath.
0:06:36 > 0:06:39She raised the question of the Prince Phillip Hospital.
0:06:39 > 0:06:42I don't want to go into that specific issue.
0:06:42 > 0:06:44But if the people of Llanelli
0:06:44 > 0:06:48blame the government for the hospital's issues,
0:06:48 > 0:06:52it's Cardiff Bay responsible for that decision, not Westminster?
0:06:52 > 0:06:53I accept that.
0:06:53 > 0:06:56We haven't finalised plans yet.
0:06:56 > 0:07:00The Hywel Dda health board doesn't have any plans in place at all.
0:07:00 > 0:07:03You were protesting against these nonexistent plans!
0:07:03 > 0:07:06We want to register our views before the strategy comes out.
0:07:06 > 0:07:11We want to keep most of the services as they are.
0:07:11 > 0:07:14Now there's more expertise in the heath service,
0:07:14 > 0:07:18we need to ensure that what's being offered is safe,
0:07:18 > 0:07:23is affordable and is accessible for people.
0:07:23 > 0:07:27The point being made is that some voters might use the election
0:07:27 > 0:07:31as an opportunity to give the Cardiff Bay government a kick,
0:07:31 > 0:07:33not the Westminster government.
0:07:33 > 0:07:36We will have to accept that.
0:07:36 > 0:07:38We make the decisions here in Cardiff.
0:07:38 > 0:07:40If people aren't happy as a result,
0:07:40 > 0:07:44they have a chance to vote whichever way they choose.
0:07:44 > 0:07:48I must say the promises we made last year, we are keeping those.
0:07:48 > 0:07:53That is why we won last year. I hope the same will happen this year.
0:07:53 > 0:07:55Nerys Evans.
0:07:55 > 0:07:57Carwyn Jones spoke at the weekend
0:07:57 > 0:08:01and urged some Plaid Cymru supporters to defect to Labour.
0:08:01 > 0:08:05"They've lost their way with this independence issue."
0:08:05 > 0:08:08Are you worried?
0:08:08 > 0:08:11I'm not surprised he's trying to reach out to Plaid Cymru supporters.
0:08:11 > 0:08:14The Welsh Labour Party is lacking vision
0:08:14 > 0:08:18and it doesn't have a plan in place for Wales.
0:08:18 > 0:08:22We've seen that with lack of evidence for the Silk Commission,
0:08:22 > 0:08:25looking at the future of devolution in Wales.
0:08:25 > 0:08:28We've seen a lot of different things regarding how much devolution
0:08:28 > 0:08:31Wales should have, according to the Labour party.
0:08:31 > 0:08:34There is a lack of vision for the nation.
0:08:34 > 0:08:37I think that's where the Labour party in Wales is lacking.
0:08:37 > 0:08:43That's why I think party supporters won't respond to this from Carwyn Jones.
0:08:43 > 0:08:47But it's natural for him to try and reach out to the party's supporters.
0:08:47 > 0:08:49I don't think the vision is there for Wales
0:08:49 > 0:08:52and the future of Wales from Labour.
0:08:52 > 0:08:55We'll go back to 'delivering' in a moment,
0:08:55 > 0:08:57but we'll bring you in, Dr Felix Aubel.
0:08:57 > 0:09:02If people don't want to give the Labour Party in Wales a kick,
0:09:02 > 0:09:06I'm sure some will want to give your party a kick in Westminster.
0:09:06 > 0:09:08Is that going to be a problem?
0:09:08 > 0:09:12I foresee Labour and the Conservatives winning seats
0:09:12 > 0:09:14in these county council elections.
0:09:14 > 0:09:20- From who?- The simple fact is that Labour were unpopular in 2008.
0:09:20 > 0:09:25As Keith said, Plaid Cymru won a lot of seats in the Llanelli area.
0:09:25 > 0:09:27I see Labour winning them back.
0:09:27 > 0:09:32And in rural areas like mine in Pembrokeshire and so on,
0:09:32 > 0:09:36a lot of the independents there are standing as Tories.
0:09:36 > 0:09:39It's a question for all of us, really, whether we in a period
0:09:39 > 0:09:43where there's more pluralism in council elections?
0:09:43 > 0:09:47There was a time when Cardiff council, or South Glamorgan,
0:09:47 > 0:09:51moved back and forth between Labour and the Conservatives.
0:09:51 > 0:09:53There are more independents in urban areas nowadays.
0:09:53 > 0:09:56There are Lib Dems and Plaid Cymru members on the councils.
0:09:56 > 0:10:00Are we going to find ourselves in a situation where there's some movement
0:10:00 > 0:10:03but the old days of Labour superiority in many areas
0:10:03 > 0:10:05is not going to continue?
0:10:05 > 0:10:09Yes. We've got a more pluralistic element, here.
0:10:09 > 0:10:12It's remarkable that there are more independent councillors
0:10:12 > 0:10:16in Wales than there are of any other political party.
0:10:16 > 0:10:18That's not true in England or Scotland, by the way.
0:10:18 > 0:10:23What's important is we have more party politics.
0:10:23 > 0:10:27That brings in discipline where people act as a group,
0:10:27 > 0:10:31rather than as individual councillors.
0:10:31 > 0:10:34That's why I welcome the amount of Conservatives
0:10:34 > 0:10:39standing as Conservatives this time, rather than independent candidates.
0:10:39 > 0:10:41I hope that will be true of other parties as well.
0:10:41 > 0:10:43Back to Labour, Keith,
0:10:43 > 0:10:47and Nerys's point about delivering and vision.
0:10:47 > 0:10:51This is a regular criticism of the Government here,
0:10:51 > 0:10:54and it does hurt.
0:10:54 > 0:10:56It presses an uncomfortable button for you as a party?
0:10:56 > 0:10:59I don't see it like that.
0:10:59 > 0:11:01We have a programme of Government.
0:11:01 > 0:11:04It's clear and we're starting to bring in new legislation.
0:11:04 > 0:11:06We have support from all sides.
0:11:06 > 0:11:09As far as devolution, what vision do you have?
0:11:09 > 0:11:11What do you want to see in Wales?
0:11:11 > 0:11:15What is your vision as far as evidence from the Silk Commission?
0:11:15 > 0:11:18The Conservatives are even talking about more devolution.
0:11:18 > 0:11:21The Labour Party has gone silent.
0:11:21 > 0:11:25You haven't introduced a single measure since the last election.
0:11:25 > 0:11:27We have. We have.
0:11:27 > 0:11:29Interestingly, Peter Hain was speaking
0:11:29 > 0:11:32at a fringe meeting recently.
0:11:32 > 0:11:34He said that the Assembly group
0:11:34 > 0:11:38needs to ensure they don't do the same as what happened in Westminster,
0:11:38 > 0:11:41with the Government becoming too managerial.
0:11:41 > 0:11:44That is what some within the party believe.
0:11:44 > 0:11:46The Government has been in for 12 years,
0:11:46 > 0:11:48either alone or in coalition.
0:11:48 > 0:11:51Maybe it's become something that's just running Wales
0:11:51 > 0:11:55without much vision or communication?
0:11:55 > 0:12:00Since May things have changed. We can legislate.
0:12:00 > 0:12:04We are preparing Bills coming in, social services, for example,
0:12:04 > 0:12:07housing, it's in the programme of government.
0:12:07 > 0:12:10We are not chasing independence. That is what Plaid Cymru want.
0:12:10 > 0:12:14If that's what they want, they need to say they want independence.
0:12:14 > 0:12:16Then we'll see what the people of Wales want.
0:12:16 > 0:12:19But the thing is, Labour is in power in the Assembly.
0:12:19 > 0:12:22If people are not happy with the Labour programme,
0:12:22 > 0:12:24they have a clear choice.
0:12:24 > 0:12:28If you don't want Labour, you must vote for the Conservatives.
0:12:28 > 0:12:31Voting for Plaid Cymru is a waste.
0:12:31 > 0:12:34We're talking about local elections, do we have to be like this?
0:12:34 > 0:12:37I must say one thing,
0:12:37 > 0:12:40I'm glad to hear these independents
0:12:40 > 0:12:43out in these rural counties are now showing their true colours
0:12:43 > 0:12:45and saying that they are Conservatives.
0:12:45 > 0:12:49So Peter Hain was right? Would you agree that Peter Hain was right?
0:12:49 > 0:12:52Some people are independent and are truly independent,
0:12:52 > 0:12:55and they are not members of any parties.
0:12:55 > 0:12:59We know there is a tradition of people, who are not Labour,
0:12:59 > 0:13:03they are either old Liberals or some used to be Plaid Cymru
0:13:03 > 0:13:05and there are Conservatives
0:13:05 > 0:13:10standing under this umbrella of independence to keep Labour out.
0:13:10 > 0:13:14Most of them act like a party with a leader and a whip
0:13:14 > 0:13:16to make sure everyone votes in the same way.
0:13:16 > 0:13:19That's what happens in Carmarthenshire.
0:13:19 > 0:13:23For once I do agree with Peter Hain, that many of them are Conservative
0:13:23 > 0:13:26and that the Labour party joins them in coalition.
0:13:26 > 0:13:29THEY LAUGH Let's not go into that.
0:13:29 > 0:13:32How many of you have changed your eating habits
0:13:32 > 0:13:34as a result of feeling the financial pinch?
0:13:34 > 0:13:38According to National Office of Statistics figures,
0:13:38 > 0:13:42the average family spends £35 less on a weekly food shop
0:13:42 > 0:13:45compared to before the recession.
0:13:45 > 0:13:48While most of us are counting the pennies,
0:13:48 > 0:13:51for others the reality is much more serious,
0:13:51 > 0:13:54with more people turning to food banks for assistance.
0:13:54 > 0:13:57Janet Ebenezer reports.
0:13:57 > 0:14:00There's nothing new about food banks.
0:14:00 > 0:14:04Volunteers and charities have been feeding the poor and homeless
0:14:04 > 0:14:06in our cities for years.
0:14:06 > 0:14:09What is changing is the type of person relying on this
0:14:09 > 0:14:12service for their daily bread.
0:14:12 > 0:14:16The first food bank in Wales was established in Ebbw Vale
0:14:16 > 0:14:18around four years ago.
0:14:18 > 0:14:22The charity running the centres has seen sweeping changes,
0:14:22 > 0:14:24especially recently.
0:14:24 > 0:14:27We expect it to increase more and more
0:14:27 > 0:14:32throughout 2012, because more people are feeling the strain
0:14:32 > 0:14:35on the money in their bank accounts.
0:14:35 > 0:14:39If there is an emergency such as the boiler breaks,
0:14:39 > 0:14:41or the car breaks down,
0:14:41 > 0:14:45many people can't buy their way out of an emergency
0:14:45 > 0:14:48and they need help from a charity such as the Food Bank.
0:14:48 > 0:14:51According to the trust there was an increase of 50%
0:14:51 > 0:14:55in the number of people collecting food parcels in Ebbw Vale
0:14:55 > 0:14:58over Christmas and New Year.
0:14:58 > 0:15:02In Cardiff, the increase was even bigger, 100%.
0:15:02 > 0:15:06According to the latest figures for the end of the financial year,
0:15:06 > 0:15:1013,000 people will have used food banks in Wales.
0:15:13 > 0:15:15This is the food parcel.
0:15:15 > 0:15:20It's enough food for one person to eat healthily for three days.
0:15:20 > 0:15:23The Trussell Trust, which organise the charity,
0:15:23 > 0:15:27is warning that this year will be even tougher.
0:15:27 > 0:15:31With more people utilising food banks,
0:15:31 > 0:15:34there is more pressure on this service.
0:15:34 > 0:15:38What is the reason behind it?
0:15:38 > 0:15:43And should society be relying on charities to keep people healthy?
0:15:43 > 0:15:46I think there is a greater need for help from charities
0:15:46 > 0:15:50because we are facing difficult economic times.
0:15:50 > 0:15:53And we've been in this situation for a few years already.
0:15:53 > 0:15:57These charities provide some sort of answer.
0:15:57 > 0:16:01There is support available from charities.
0:16:01 > 0:16:03Public services might not be able to help
0:16:03 > 0:16:07because of the cuts in spending and in budgets.
0:16:07 > 0:16:11We're also seeing unemployment levels rising to over 9% in Wales
0:16:11 > 0:16:14and on top of that, we are seeing people who have jobs
0:16:14 > 0:16:17having to turn to charities for help.
0:16:17 > 0:16:19They are being pushed into poverty.
0:16:19 > 0:16:22Should more wealthy citizens be lending a hand?
0:16:25 > 0:16:28Historically there was more philanthropism.
0:16:28 > 0:16:31Look at people like Wellcome, Ford,
0:16:31 > 0:16:33Rockefeller, Carnegie.
0:16:33 > 0:16:36And in this country Nuffield and so on.
0:16:36 > 0:16:39These days there's Albert Gubay.
0:16:39 > 0:16:42He's a Welshman from Rhyl who made a fortune
0:16:42 > 0:16:44and is now giving it all away.
0:16:44 > 0:16:47On the other hand, there is evidence that, on the whole,
0:16:47 > 0:16:50certain people are keeping their money.
0:16:50 > 0:16:55Only 1% is given away to charity.
0:16:55 > 0:16:59I don't think that can be justified.
0:16:59 > 0:17:03Some might argue that it's strange when banks and bankers,
0:17:03 > 0:17:07who were blamed for much of the financial crisis are succeeding,
0:17:07 > 0:17:11while more and more ordinary people are relying
0:17:11 > 0:17:14on the charitable donations of the food banks.
0:17:14 > 0:17:19Nerys Evans, you've worked in the charity sector since leaving here.
0:17:19 > 0:17:21Is it surprising for you that 13,000 people in Wales
0:17:21 > 0:17:24are relying on charities for food
0:17:24 > 0:17:27and the welfare state isn't offering that support?
0:17:27 > 0:17:32It is a surprise, it's good that we have these charities to help.
0:17:32 > 0:17:36I think this raises basic questions regarding the role of government
0:17:36 > 0:17:39and the role of the benefits system.
0:17:39 > 0:17:42The minimum wage and benefits are insufficient
0:17:42 > 0:17:45for people to live on these days.
0:17:45 > 0:17:49I think the debate we've had about the situation,
0:17:49 > 0:17:55the economic situation and the bonuses and over-paying people
0:17:55 > 0:17:57has dominated the debate.
0:17:57 > 0:18:01We should be looking back to the principles of the welfare state
0:18:01 > 0:18:04and seeing whether benefits are sufficient for people today.
0:18:04 > 0:18:07And are there further cuts to benefits to come, Felix,
0:18:07 > 0:18:10for many of these people that depend on food banks.
0:18:10 > 0:18:15It's important to note that people are socially responsible
0:18:15 > 0:18:18and prepared to donate goods to these charities
0:18:18 > 0:18:22and we also need to look at some of these supermarkets.
0:18:22 > 0:18:25There is a lot of food waste.
0:18:25 > 0:18:28This idea that you buy one and get another free,
0:18:28 > 0:18:31and so on, most of it is wasted.
0:18:31 > 0:18:35If you give food to a food bank, then they give it to someone
0:18:35 > 0:18:39who is employed full-time, what you are doing, basically,
0:18:39 > 0:18:44is subsidising employers who aren't paying sufficient wages?
0:18:44 > 0:18:46But if someone's working in the private sector,
0:18:46 > 0:18:48the government can't step in.
0:18:48 > 0:18:51We are not living in the Soviet Union or Eastern Europe
0:18:51 > 0:18:53where Big Brother was in charge.
0:18:53 > 0:18:56But we have a minimum wage.
0:18:56 > 0:19:00It's obvious if someone is working full-time and cannot afford to put
0:19:00 > 0:19:03a plate of food on the table, then that minimum wage is insufficient.
0:19:03 > 0:19:06Yet your party opposed introducing it in the first place,
0:19:06 > 0:19:09and now they are reluctant to raise it?
0:19:09 > 0:19:13I've always supported the minimum wage idea.
0:19:13 > 0:19:16If the employer cannot pay the minimum wage,
0:19:16 > 0:19:20that person should be an employee rather than an employer.
0:19:20 > 0:19:24The truth is, what is important to note is that around 20%
0:19:24 > 0:19:29of people working today receive below than the minimum wage.
0:19:29 > 0:19:32Whoever is in authority, pressure needs to be put on these people
0:19:32 > 0:19:35because workers aren't getting what they deserve.
0:19:35 > 0:19:39Is it shameful for the Government in Cardiff
0:19:39 > 0:19:41that 20% of people in Wales are living in poverty?
0:19:41 > 0:19:46Yes. We are doing our best to try and support them.
0:19:46 > 0:19:50We are still waiting for the poverty strategy. Where is it?
0:19:50 > 0:19:54We are trying to create full-time jobs for the people.
0:19:54 > 0:19:58We offer free breakfasts for children.
0:19:58 > 0:20:02We have free prescriptions.
0:20:02 > 0:20:06- They're available to everyone. - I accept that.
0:20:06 > 0:20:09It's more expensive to pick and choose who receives them.
0:20:09 > 0:20:12Everyone benefits in the end.
0:20:12 > 0:20:16By giving these things away for free,
0:20:16 > 0:20:21you are giving them to the rich people rather than poor people.
0:20:21 > 0:20:26It doesn't help poverty. What you need is to target poor people.
0:20:26 > 0:20:31The fact is, wealthy people can pay for their own prescriptions.
0:20:31 > 0:20:34That's true of the Westminster government.
0:20:34 > 0:20:40David Cameron doesn't want to get rid of the allowance...
0:20:40 > 0:20:42- What are you talking about? - The allowance.
0:20:42 > 0:20:45- Winter fuel, winter fuel! - Winter fuel.
0:20:45 > 0:20:47You had a big night last night!
0:20:47 > 0:20:51The point is that we live in Wales
0:20:51 > 0:20:55and Keith can say whatever he likes about Westminster,
0:20:55 > 0:20:58but Labour is in power in Cardiff.
0:20:58 > 0:21:01So give us an answer.
0:21:01 > 0:21:06People are living in poverty because of the decisions made in London.
0:21:06 > 0:21:09The benefits people are going to lose,
0:21:09 > 0:21:12the I think things are going to get worse before they get better.
0:21:12 > 0:21:16Who put Wales in debt in the first place? The Labour government!
0:21:16 > 0:21:21Let's not go there. We were looking at them making soup in the film.
0:21:21 > 0:21:23It looked like something from the 1920s.
0:21:23 > 0:21:26We are seeing what is happening in Greece
0:21:26 > 0:21:30is it possible, Nerys, that we're close to a precipice
0:21:30 > 0:21:32where everything we've gained in society
0:21:32 > 0:21:36over the past half century is starting to disappear?
0:21:36 > 0:21:39We're coming to the end of this era?
0:21:39 > 0:21:42It looks that way.
0:21:42 > 0:21:46We need to have a debate on what kind of society we want.
0:21:46 > 0:21:49There's been a dramatic redistribution
0:21:49 > 0:21:52of wealth over the last 20 years.
0:21:52 > 0:21:55The rich are getting richer and the poorer are getting poorer.
0:21:55 > 0:21:58It's clear, from the evidence we've seen tonight,
0:21:58 > 0:22:02that benefits and the minimum wage are insufficient
0:22:02 > 0:22:04for a lot of people in Wales.
0:22:04 > 0:22:07We need a debate on a living wage,
0:22:07 > 0:22:11rather than a minimum wage, to tackle this.
0:22:11 > 0:22:15To end on an ideological note,
0:22:15 > 0:22:19is this a time for us to stop blaming people
0:22:19 > 0:22:23and have a mature debate over the society we live in?
0:22:23 > 0:22:28We are in this pickle and we need to clear the debt.
0:22:28 > 0:22:31As people with credit card debts know,
0:22:31 > 0:22:33if you don't pay the debt, it increases.
0:22:33 > 0:22:38Unfortunately, Labour have left us in debt on a Westminster level.
0:22:38 > 0:22:40I must come back in on this.
0:22:40 > 0:22:43It's not just a problem for this country.
0:22:43 > 0:22:46In Brussels this week, the Labour Party group decided
0:22:46 > 0:22:50that more money is needed for 20 million people in Europe.
0:22:50 > 0:22:56It's not just a problem for this country, it's worldwide.
0:22:56 > 0:23:01We have to pay £120 million in interest back every day
0:23:01 > 0:23:04because of the debt that was caused by Labour.
0:23:04 > 0:23:06Thanks for that.
0:23:06 > 0:23:11Let's finish with the sad news today that we've lost Emlyn Hooson,
0:23:11 > 0:23:14one of the giants from the Liberal party in Wales.
0:23:14 > 0:23:17Felix, do you remember him well from your days in the SDP?
0:23:17 > 0:23:20I had a lot of respect for Emlyn Hooson.
0:23:20 > 0:23:22I'm very sad to hear about his loss.
0:23:22 > 0:23:25He was a gentleman in the true sense of the word,
0:23:25 > 0:23:30he was a liberal in the Gladstone and Lloyd George tradition.
0:23:30 > 0:23:34He helped me in the Cynon Valley by-election in 1984.
0:23:34 > 0:23:38He was a Liberal that believed the Liberal Party should appeal
0:23:38 > 0:23:42in industrial areas as well as rural areas.
0:23:42 > 0:23:44He kept Liberalism alive from the '60s onwards
0:23:44 > 0:23:47and I had great respect towards him.
0:23:47 > 0:23:51Thank you very much. That's all for today.
0:23:51 > 0:23:56Join us again next Wednesday night at 9.30pm.
0:23:56 > 0:23:59- Until then, good night.- Good night.
0:24:06 > 0:24:08Subtitles by Red Bee Media Ltd