0:00:18 > 0:00:21Hello and welcome to a live edition of CF99.
0:00:21 > 0:00:24Who will be the new leader of Plaid Cymru
0:00:24 > 0:00:28and to which direction will he or she take the party?
0:00:28 > 0:00:33Are you keen to claim the best seats in the Grand Theatre
0:00:33 > 0:00:35in Swansea tomorrow night?
0:00:35 > 0:00:39The main attraction, Paul Silk and his Commission
0:00:39 > 0:00:42on devolution in Wales. But what kind of a show will it be?
0:00:42 > 0:00:47If you want to join in tonight on Twitter,
0:00:47 > 0:00:50you are welcome to do so by using #CF99 as usual.
0:00:50 > 0:00:55We are joined by the Treasurer of Plaid Cymru, Dafydd Trystan,
0:00:55 > 0:01:02Professor Richard Wyn Jones from Cardiff University
0:01:02 > 0:01:07and the Tory MP, Guto Bebb, who is in our studio in Westminster.
0:01:07 > 0:01:09- Good evening to you all.- Welcome.
0:01:09 > 0:01:11After 12 years as leader,
0:01:11 > 0:01:15Ieuan Wyn Jones will step down as party leader tomorrow.
0:01:15 > 0:01:17His years in the job has been exciting
0:01:17 > 0:01:20and very controversial for the party.
0:01:20 > 0:01:24He lead his party to government for the first time
0:01:24 > 0:01:28but also faced his party's worst election results since devolution.
0:01:28 > 0:01:32Since May last year, Plaid Cymru have fewer AMs than the Tories.
0:01:32 > 0:01:35A challenge therefore of for the new leader.
0:01:35 > 0:01:40Tomorrow, we'll find out who has won. Here's James Williams.
0:01:45 > 0:01:49When Spring comes, it brings with it hope.
0:01:49 > 0:01:54After a disappointing period in the elections for Plaid Cymru,
0:01:54 > 0:01:57the race to succeed Ieuan Wyn Jones is about to come to an end.
0:01:57 > 0:02:00It has been an honour for me to do this job
0:02:00 > 0:02:05and to play a part in the establishment and development
0:02:05 > 0:02:10of the first Assembly that Wales has seen in six centuries.
0:02:10 > 0:02:14No-one could have asked for more than that.
0:02:14 > 0:02:20By tomorrow, one of these will lead the party after a long campaign.
0:02:28 > 0:02:33Whoever will win, Plaid Cymru has a great deal of ground to gain
0:02:33 > 0:02:37after giving up its status as the second biggest party in the Assembly
0:02:37 > 0:02:38to the Tories last year.
0:02:38 > 0:02:41We have had a disappointing year
0:02:41 > 0:02:45and we have had a lot of time to think about that.
0:02:45 > 0:02:50We had Eurful ap Gwilym's review and the party was united
0:02:50 > 0:02:55in accepting the report's recommendations.
0:02:55 > 0:03:00We have a chance now with a new leader to take this forward
0:03:00 > 0:03:04and look at how to modernise as a party
0:03:04 > 0:03:06and connect with people.
0:03:06 > 0:03:12I think that our report which included 95 recommendations.
0:03:12 > 0:03:18We have to turn the recommendations into a plan with priorities.
0:03:18 > 0:03:21We have to act on those and that is a big challenge.
0:03:21 > 0:03:26It will take at least two years and give them the right priorities.
0:03:26 > 0:03:30I hope that the new leader will lead that work.
0:03:30 > 0:03:33We have set out clear recommendations.
0:03:33 > 0:03:35Two months before the next election,
0:03:35 > 0:03:38it's the every day issues that worry the electors.
0:03:38 > 0:03:43Four years ago, the party increased its number of councillors
0:03:43 > 0:03:47even though they lost control of Gwynedd Council.
0:03:47 > 0:03:49So, how important is May's election result?
0:03:49 > 0:03:54Local elections are very important to any party.
0:03:54 > 0:03:58It shows us what people think of our policies
0:03:58 > 0:04:01and it's a chance for us to talk to the voters
0:04:01 > 0:04:05and see how they respond to our ideas to move the party forward.
0:04:05 > 0:04:08We have good ideas for the people of Wales.
0:04:08 > 0:04:14What are the prospects for the future of Plaid Cymru?
0:04:14 > 0:04:15May's election result
0:04:15 > 0:04:20will give us an idea of the political climate that is to come.
0:04:20 > 0:04:26Richard, the first test for any politician
0:04:26 > 0:04:28is his political track record.
0:04:28 > 0:04:32For Ieuan Wyn Jones, is was a slow deterioration, wasn't it?
0:04:32 > 0:04:36But it was a constant deterioration during his leadership.
0:04:36 > 0:04:40There is a truth in the fact that every political career
0:04:40 > 0:04:42ends in failure.
0:04:42 > 0:04:47It's not often that a politician leaves on a high.
0:04:47 > 0:04:49If we are being unkind
0:04:49 > 0:04:55and focusing on the result of the last election
0:04:55 > 0:05:00But to be fair, you have to look at the journey of the party
0:05:00 > 0:05:05during that period and try and discuss it.
0:05:05 > 0:05:09In policy terms, there are gains in Plaid Cymru's agenda.
0:05:09 > 0:05:14Last year's referendum was the pinnacle of that.
0:05:14 > 0:05:19But the test is in 1992, Dafydd Wigley was leader
0:05:19 > 0:05:23and the election results were really good.
0:05:23 > 0:05:29The party has weakened greatly since then.
0:05:29 > 0:05:34I don't deny that. You have three elements here.
0:05:34 > 0:05:41Policy, entering into government, which is very important.
0:05:41 > 0:05:44Thirdly, you have the votes.
0:05:44 > 0:05:49If you concentrate on that, that story is correct.
0:05:49 > 0:05:55I agree that he is leaving on a very disappointing notes
0:05:55 > 0:06:00but if we were fair, I think the record is better.
0:06:00 > 0:06:03So, Dafydd Trystan, is there a need for a change in direction?
0:06:03 > 0:06:05Is the party at a crossroads here
0:06:05 > 0:06:09or do we need continuation with the new leader?
0:06:09 > 0:06:13We need both.
0:06:13 > 0:06:16We definitely need a continuation on the political success
0:06:16 > 0:06:19that the party has had over the past decade under Ieuan.
0:06:19 > 0:06:23That has been clear.
0:06:23 > 0:06:28What is a challenge now and what was in the report that I co-wrote
0:06:28 > 0:06:34is that views of Welsh voters has moved towards the party.
0:06:34 > 0:06:38But the party has not increased the number of votes.
0:06:38 > 0:06:42That is the challenge for the party.
0:06:42 > 0:06:45The new leader will face a challenge within a few weeks
0:06:45 > 0:06:48and I would say that there will be losses.
0:06:48 > 0:06:54Perhaps there will be some victories but the blow
0:06:54 > 0:06:59that was against Labour four years ago, is not going to happen.
0:06:59 > 0:07:02Labour will gain ground
0:07:02 > 0:07:06because of Plaid Cymru.
0:07:06 > 0:07:10It's clear that Labour across Britain is flourishing
0:07:10 > 0:07:12compared to 2008.
0:07:12 > 0:07:17So, that gives a challenging time for us in the local elections.
0:07:17 > 0:07:22What's clear is that the battles are won and lost on local ground.
0:07:22 > 0:07:27There are strong campaigns across Cardiff and beyond
0:07:27 > 0:07:30where the party are hoping to win seats.
0:07:30 > 0:07:35Guto Bebb, perhaps the irony of Plaid Cymru
0:07:35 > 0:07:41is that they have made the other parties of Wales more Welsh.
0:07:43 > 0:07:46As a result they have lost their USP?
0:07:46 > 0:07:50I don't think that is the success of the party
0:07:50 > 0:07:53but more a success of devolution.
0:07:53 > 0:07:57Some could argue that Plaid Cymru was responsible or devolution.
0:07:57 > 0:07:59I don't think that's true.
0:07:59 > 0:08:07I don't think you can attribute the Welshness to Plaid Cymru,
0:08:07 > 0:08:12I think it's more to do with the other parties acknowledging
0:08:12 > 0:08:15the importance of politics in Wales now.
0:08:15 > 0:08:19Personally, I believe that the recent period for Plaid Cymru
0:08:19 > 0:08:24has been an interesting one but not a success.
0:08:24 > 0:08:28People have been comparing the success of Plaid Cymru
0:08:28 > 0:08:31under Ieuan Wyn Jones and the SNP under Alex Salmond.
0:08:31 > 0:08:33Richard Wyn Jones,
0:08:33 > 0:08:38is there a real choice between the three candidates or are they similar?
0:08:38 > 0:08:41It can be divided into two groups.
0:08:41 > 0:08:45Two in one group and one in the other.
0:08:45 > 0:08:49If Plaid Cymru chooses Dafydd Elis-Thomas, they will have problems
0:08:49 > 0:08:52within the party in regards to local elections.
0:08:52 > 0:08:56If you look at the party in terms of elective members,
0:08:56 > 0:09:00party staff and ordinary members, he hasn't got much support
0:09:00 > 0:09:02among elective members.
0:09:02 > 0:09:09He hasn't got much support from those working for the party.
0:09:09 > 0:09:13They have big problems.
0:09:13 > 0:09:18He isn't here tonight but he said that he had a good campaign.
0:09:18 > 0:09:21I'm not saying that.
0:09:21 > 0:09:25I think that he wants to go into government with Labour.
0:09:25 > 0:09:30That's the USP. The two others are more similar.
0:09:30 > 0:09:34The two women are going to move to the centre.
0:09:34 > 0:09:38Everyone who's running a campaign to become a party leader
0:09:38 > 0:09:41is playing to the prejudices of the members.
0:09:41 > 0:09:44The two will move towards independence.
0:09:44 > 0:09:48They talk a lot about the economy.
0:09:48 > 0:09:52Guto, does one of the three scare you?
0:09:52 > 0:09:59Not at all but I have great respect for all three.
0:09:59 > 0:10:01Elin Jones is a good minister.
0:10:01 > 0:10:04Leanne Wood is a very charismatic character.
0:10:04 > 0:10:06I have a lot of time for Leanne.
0:10:06 > 0:10:10She used to share a platform with me against the euro.
0:10:10 > 0:10:13The old fox, Dafydd Elis-Thomas
0:10:13 > 0:10:15is someone who I have great respect for.
0:10:15 > 0:10:19Dafydd Elis-Thomas has gained the support
0:10:19 > 0:10:23of many Plaid Cymru council leader. He has support within the party too.
0:10:23 > 0:10:28I think that electing Dafydd Elis-Thomas
0:10:28 > 0:10:31would lead to problems within the party.
0:10:31 > 0:10:35I think that Leanne would give people a real chance
0:10:35 > 0:10:38for those who argue that the Welsh Tory Party
0:10:38 > 0:10:41has a chance to take advantage on the party's decision
0:10:41 > 0:10:43to turn to the left.
0:10:43 > 0:10:47She is a good minister, she is not a good communicator.
0:10:47 > 0:10:53I think that she would find it difficult to be a party leader.
0:10:53 > 0:10:57I disagree with those comments.
0:10:57 > 0:11:03Dafydd has set out his intellectual strengths during his campaign.
0:11:03 > 0:11:08No-one denies how clear and strong has been
0:11:08 > 0:11:12on a series of subjects even some that was unpopular with members.
0:11:12 > 0:11:17Leanne is inspirational and is going to be a crucial part of the team.
0:11:17 > 0:11:21Elin's character and perseverance moving within the party
0:11:21 > 0:11:23is a great combination.
0:11:23 > 0:11:26Can I ask a question to you Dafydd?
0:11:26 > 0:11:29No-one can predict who will win tomorrow
0:11:29 > 0:11:33but one people has lost during this campaign.
0:11:33 > 0:11:36That person is Adam Price.
0:11:36 > 0:11:40A number of people has reacted to the second intervention
0:11:40 > 0:11:45by saying, who is this man preaching from Harvard?
0:11:45 > 0:11:50It hasn't been the best campaign for Adam.
0:11:50 > 0:11:54I think that it's a good sign about Leanne's leadership or Elin
0:11:54 > 0:11:57that neither dabbled with that kind of politics.
0:11:57 > 0:12:01Dafydd hasn't either.
0:12:01 > 0:12:04It as if he has come from afar
0:12:04 > 0:12:08and doesn't reflect what was happening among members.
0:12:08 > 0:12:11Richard, you have been very critical
0:12:11 > 0:12:17of this stepping forward by the party.
0:12:17 > 0:12:21You talk of a need for a practical ideal.
0:12:21 > 0:12:24What should come first?
0:12:24 > 0:12:27The talk about the constitution
0:12:27 > 0:12:31and the long-term strategy or the economy and jobs?
0:12:33 > 0:12:38I think that the constitutional agenda is going ahead.
0:12:38 > 0:12:40The party could refer to that
0:12:40 > 0:12:44and could push it to different directions.
0:12:44 > 0:12:47They don't have to do a lot there.
0:12:47 > 0:12:49The challenge for Plaid Cymru
0:12:49 > 0:12:53is to find a way of challenging Carwyn Jones.
0:12:53 > 0:12:56It appears to me that the Welsh Government gets its own way.
0:12:56 > 0:12:59The opposition isn't very effective.
0:12:59 > 0:13:04The whole negative statistics are coming out daily.
0:13:04 > 0:13:07Plaid Cymru isn't relevant to that discussion.
0:13:09 > 0:13:10Thank you very much.
0:13:10 > 0:13:13If you fancy a night out in Swansea tomorrow night,
0:13:13 > 0:13:16free tickets are available for a special show at the Grand Theatre.
0:13:16 > 0:13:19Remember to wear your anorak because the cast are members
0:13:19 > 0:13:23of the commission on devolution, Paul Silk and his crew.
0:13:23 > 0:13:28The plot is deep, discussing the financial accountability
0:13:28 > 0:13:33for Wales, financial loans and tax-raising powers.
0:13:33 > 0:13:35You should be applauding there!
0:13:35 > 0:13:37Elliw Gwawr has been asking what's likely to come
0:13:37 > 0:13:40out of the commission.
0:13:40 > 0:13:44The work of shedding some light on the financial future of Wales
0:13:44 > 0:13:47has begun since October.
0:13:47 > 0:13:49The work has been done behind closed doors.
0:13:49 > 0:13:52The Silk Commission wants to attract a wider audience.
0:13:52 > 0:13:56It's here at the Grand Theatre in Swansea
0:13:56 > 0:14:00that the Silk Commission will hold its first public meeting.
0:14:00 > 0:14:05They have already collected written evidence from politicians,
0:14:05 > 0:14:08academics and Welsh organisations.
0:14:08 > 0:14:10But they now want to see what the public
0:14:10 > 0:14:13think about the financial future of Wales.
0:14:13 > 0:14:14But how easy will that be?
0:14:14 > 0:14:18There are enough seats still left for this event.
0:14:18 > 0:14:23The meeting won't be held in the theatre itself
0:14:23 > 0:14:25but with only 12 registered to attend so far,
0:14:25 > 0:14:29are they doing enough to attract the public?
0:14:29 > 0:14:33It's the first in a series of public meetings.
0:14:33 > 0:14:37We have made it clear that people don't have to register
0:14:37 > 0:14:40can come on the night.
0:14:40 > 0:14:43I think that some will.
0:14:43 > 0:14:46The most important thing is that those who attend
0:14:46 > 0:14:52contribute to the discussion and ask questions and put their view across.
0:14:52 > 0:14:57After this first meeting, the show will tour Wales with events
0:14:57 > 0:15:01being organised from official sessions to coffee mornings.
0:15:02 > 0:15:06But do they need to be more creative to attract the public?
0:15:06 > 0:15:10We were criticised for the night in Port Talbot
0:15:10 > 0:15:13but I think it was a very successful night.
0:15:13 > 0:15:18We learnt how not to do things and how to do other things
0:15:18 > 0:15:20but in terms of getting close to people,
0:15:20 > 0:15:26and talking to them in their own communities, it was very beneficial.
0:15:26 > 0:15:31We found that people were willing to come to us on their own terms.
0:15:31 > 0:15:33We'll discover what people really think
0:15:33 > 0:15:38when the commission reports back on its initial findings in October.
0:15:39 > 0:15:45Guto Bebb, what's the opinion in Westminster and among MPs in general?
0:15:45 > 0:15:50Do they look at the Senedd in Cardiff as a place that has power,
0:15:50 > 0:15:56with regard to raising money, but no accountability?
0:15:56 > 0:15:59I think there is some truth in that.
0:15:59 > 0:16:03Several Labour and Conservative members attended a meeting
0:16:03 > 0:16:06with Paul Silk and his team last week.
0:16:06 > 0:16:09I think most of the Welsh members were there, to be honest.
0:16:09 > 0:16:13There's a feeling, and I've said this myself in the chamber
0:16:13 > 0:16:18when we've had a discussion on these plans to look at the constitution,
0:16:18 > 0:16:21that there is a question about the Assembly's financial accountability.
0:16:21 > 0:16:24If the Assembly is responsible for spending £15 billion,
0:16:24 > 0:16:29maybe it should be responsible for raising some of that money in Wales.
0:16:29 > 0:16:31I think that's healthy
0:16:31 > 0:16:34because it shows people how important the Assembly is.
0:16:34 > 0:16:38At the moment, we're in the middle of county council campaigns
0:16:38 > 0:16:40and in my constituency, we're campaigning on the fact
0:16:40 > 0:16:43that the coalition under the leadership of Plaid Cymru
0:16:43 > 0:16:45has increased council tax.
0:16:45 > 0:16:48If councillors and councils are financially accountable,
0:16:48 > 0:16:52I think it's impossible to argue the Assembly shouldn't be as well.
0:16:52 > 0:16:57Earlier, Richard mentioned the GDP figures we saw yesterday.
0:16:57 > 0:17:00Some parts of Wales are poorer than Romania.
0:17:00 > 0:17:03The difference between wealth in Wales and wealth in London
0:17:03 > 0:17:07compared to comparisons within other countries is frightening.
0:17:07 > 0:17:12Giving this place any significant tax raising powers
0:17:12 > 0:17:16would be very difficult, considering the state of Wales' economy.
0:17:16 > 0:17:19I would argue that it's vital that this place
0:17:19 > 0:17:22does have tax raising powers because it would ensure
0:17:22 > 0:17:24that the Welsh Government is accountable
0:17:24 > 0:17:26for Wales' economic performance.
0:17:26 > 0:17:30If we're serious about developing the Welsh economy,
0:17:30 > 0:17:34we have to have the power to vary corporation tax, for example,
0:17:34 > 0:17:35here in Wales.
0:17:35 > 0:17:39I would hope that every party would support that.
0:17:39 > 0:17:43If we had that accountability, voters would know
0:17:43 > 0:17:46that if they vote for a useless government,
0:17:46 > 0:17:50like we have at the moment, it'll affect their public services.
0:17:50 > 0:17:54But let's be honest, those taxes would have to go through the roof.
0:17:54 > 0:17:57No, because in any sensible devolved system,
0:17:57 > 0:18:00there are transfers from different parts.
0:18:00 > 0:18:04That's what will happen, that's what happens now.
0:18:04 > 0:18:06That's what happens in any country
0:18:06 > 0:18:10where there is a devolved system of budgeting.
0:18:10 > 0:18:13That's what's on the table in Scotland, with Calman,
0:18:13 > 0:18:15and that's what I would expect to happen in Wales.
0:18:15 > 0:18:19But Richard, Carwyn Jones is suggesting taxes
0:18:19 > 0:18:25which aren't unimportant, but they're not main stream taxes.
0:18:25 > 0:18:28Paul Silk could turn around and say,
0:18:28 > 0:18:33"This is not the time to conduct a constitutional financial experiment.
0:18:33 > 0:18:35"Sort out the economy first."
0:18:35 > 0:18:37I think the unionist parties
0:18:37 > 0:18:40have created a difficult situation for themselves.
0:18:40 > 0:18:43With regard to Scotland, they've said that the Scottish Parliament
0:18:43 > 0:18:46has to have these powers and use them in order to be accountable.
0:18:46 > 0:18:48It's very difficult to say then,
0:18:48 > 0:18:51"The Welsh Assembly doesn't have to be accountable."
0:18:51 > 0:18:54I think that argument is lost before it begins.
0:18:54 > 0:18:57The other interesting thing is the public opinion figures.
0:18:57 > 0:19:01More figures have been released today by the Silk Commission
0:19:01 > 0:19:05which confirm what we saw in the BBC's St David's Day poll.
0:19:05 > 0:19:10Surprisingly, two thirds of people in Wales
0:19:10 > 0:19:15think that the Assembly should have at least some tax raising powers.
0:19:15 > 0:19:19Carwyn Jones, I think, is quite suspicious of that,
0:19:19 > 0:19:21but it's interesting that the opinion of Welsh people
0:19:21 > 0:19:25is further down the road than the Welsh Government's opinion on this.
0:19:25 > 0:19:28Guto, do you see a possible scenario where David Cameron
0:19:28 > 0:19:30or Nick Clegg could offer these tax raising powers
0:19:30 > 0:19:34and Carwyn Jones could reject them or be nervous about accepting them?
0:19:34 > 0:19:38I'm surprised to hear Richard say this is some kind of trap
0:19:38 > 0:19:40that's been created by the unionist parties themselves.
0:19:40 > 0:19:44I think most of the Conservative members who spoke in the debate
0:19:44 > 0:19:48on Silk in the House of Commons said they were in favour of this change.
0:19:48 > 0:19:52I think most Conservative AMs would agree with this change.
0:19:52 > 0:19:55There are concerns within the Labour Party
0:19:55 > 0:19:58but Labour isn't the only unionist party we've mentioned.
0:19:58 > 0:20:01I think there's a possibility that the debate in Wales
0:20:01 > 0:20:04is being influenced by what's happening in Scotland.
0:20:04 > 0:20:07I think it's crucial that parties who believe
0:20:07 > 0:20:10that the union between the British countries is important
0:20:10 > 0:20:13but who also believe that we need powers in Cardiff
0:20:13 > 0:20:15that are accountable,
0:20:15 > 0:20:17have to move on and create a mature debate in Wales.
0:20:17 > 0:20:19Otherwise, what will happen
0:20:19 > 0:20:21is what happened in Scotland to Ruth Davidson.
0:20:21 > 0:20:23The Prime Minister turned up in Edinburgh
0:20:23 > 0:20:27and completely undermined Ruth Davidson's leadership overnight.
0:20:27 > 0:20:30I think it's important we get to grips with the agenda ourselves
0:20:30 > 0:20:33in Wales and the Silk Commission is a part of that process,
0:20:33 > 0:20:36but I would argue it's a starting point.
0:20:36 > 0:20:40A very interesting admission with regard to the Prime Minister there.
0:20:40 > 0:20:44Guto is usually very honest, but I disagree.
0:20:44 > 0:20:46I would be very surprised
0:20:46 > 0:20:50if most of the Conservative members across the country...
0:20:50 > 0:20:53- I said elected members. - That's what I'm saying.
0:20:53 > 0:20:58I think there's a big gap here between the elected members
0:20:58 > 0:21:01and the members across the country.
0:21:01 > 0:21:04The Welsh Conservative Party has managed to ensure
0:21:04 > 0:21:07that the membership has followed the elected members
0:21:07 > 0:21:09in every change that's taken place.
0:21:09 > 0:21:13In areas like Aberconwy, there was a very strong vote
0:21:13 > 0:21:16in favour of giving the Assembly further powers
0:21:16 > 0:21:20and that was because people like me stated that it was a change
0:21:20 > 0:21:22that should be welcomed.
0:21:22 > 0:21:25The big question for all the unionist parties will be,
0:21:25 > 0:21:29when the Silk report is published, and looking sensibly at this,
0:21:29 > 0:21:31if the Assembly is given tax raising powers,
0:21:31 > 0:21:35would they, their members, the Prime Minister and everyone else
0:21:35 > 0:21:39support a further significant development of devolution in Wales?
0:21:39 > 0:21:42That's the challenge for the unionist parties in Wales.
0:21:42 > 0:21:45Plaid Cymru is clear that we need those responsibilities.
0:21:45 > 0:21:47But what about the point
0:21:47 > 0:21:51that whatever happens in other places will influence this?
0:21:51 > 0:21:55It's like the measure in Scotland as a result of Calman.
0:21:55 > 0:21:58We've almost forgotten its existence.
0:21:58 > 0:22:00It'll have an effect
0:22:00 > 0:22:02and what's interesting is that for the first time,
0:22:02 > 0:22:06there's a public discussion across Britain about the constitution.
0:22:06 > 0:22:09Usually, it's about devolution in Wales and Scotland.
0:22:09 > 0:22:11What about Carwyn Jones' idea?
0:22:11 > 0:22:17That there should be a constitutional commission
0:22:17 > 0:22:19or a constitutional convention
0:22:19 > 0:22:23to look at the constitution across Britain in order to work out
0:22:23 > 0:22:26a system that's consistent across the country,
0:22:26 > 0:22:29instead of one investigation in Wales, another one in Scotland
0:22:29 > 0:22:34and something different happening with the West Lothian question.
0:22:34 > 0:22:36Does it all need to be combined?
0:22:36 > 0:22:38I think Carwyn is right about that.
0:22:38 > 0:22:40I think we have a significant problem
0:22:40 > 0:22:44because we have a big discussion about what's happening in Scotland
0:22:44 > 0:22:47and the rest of Britain and what's happening in Wales is being ignored.
0:22:47 > 0:22:50The feelings of people in England are also being ignored
0:22:50 > 0:22:52and they're becoming increasingly dissatisfied
0:22:52 > 0:22:54with the devolution settlement we have.
0:22:54 > 0:22:57I think we need to discuss how we're going to achieve
0:22:57 > 0:23:00a constitutional settlement that puts the wishes of Welsh people
0:23:00 > 0:23:04on the map but that also ensures that we can operate within Britain.
0:23:04 > 0:23:08Are you surprised sometimes about the speed of the devolution process?
0:23:08 > 0:23:12We're talking about another possible referendum, raising taxes here...
0:23:12 > 0:23:16And also, Carwyn Jones as the leader of a party
0:23:16 > 0:23:20that's been very conservative about the constitution traditionally,
0:23:20 > 0:23:24but now it's saying these radical things and people just accept it.
0:23:24 > 0:23:27It is an amazing period.
0:23:27 > 0:23:30Guto talked about this change of opinion in England
0:23:30 > 0:23:34and I've done some research on that recently and there are big changes.
0:23:34 > 0:23:38The problem with having some kind of commission across Britain
0:23:38 > 0:23:41is that it would be like locking the door after the horse has bolted!
0:23:41 > 0:23:46We've acknowledged the sovereignty of the people of Scotland and Wales.
0:23:46 > 0:23:49They're the people who get to decide.
0:23:49 > 0:23:52But isn't that a worthy ending to Ieuan Wyn Jones' leadership?
0:23:52 > 0:23:57We have to leave it there. Thank you all very much. Our time is up.
0:23:57 > 0:23:59That's it for tonight.
0:23:59 > 0:24:02Thank you to our guests and don't forget to join us next Wednesday
0:24:02 > 0:24:05when we'll be concentrating on George Osborne's red box.
0:24:05 > 0:24:07- Until then, good night.- Good night.