0:00:18 > 0:00:22Hello and welcome to CF99.
0:00:22 > 0:00:25How much would you pay for dinner with the minister?
0:00:25 > 0:00:27No, not after a Sunday service,
0:00:27 > 0:00:30but at Downing Street maybe, or even in Cardiff Bay.
0:00:30 > 0:00:33After Mr Cameron's dinner problems at his flat,
0:00:33 > 0:00:35there's an opportunity tonight
0:00:35 > 0:00:37to look at the lobbying industry here in Wales.
0:00:37 > 0:00:40We'll be asking whether it's time we, the taxpayers,
0:00:40 > 0:00:42financed the political parties?
0:00:42 > 0:00:46Joining us tonight is the journalist, Gareth Hughes.
0:00:46 > 0:00:47Daran Hill, the chief consultant
0:00:47 > 0:00:50at the Positive Politics public affairs company.
0:00:50 > 0:00:53And Reverend Aled Edwards, the chief executive of CYTUN.
0:00:53 > 0:00:55Welcome to you all.
0:00:55 > 0:00:59A few months before becoming Prime Minister, David Cameron warned
0:00:59 > 0:01:03that lobbying would be the next big scandal to hit Westminster.
0:01:03 > 0:01:05This week, he was proved right.
0:01:05 > 0:01:09But Mr Cameron is unlikely to be pleased about that.
0:01:09 > 0:01:13The co-treasurer of the Conservative Party, Peter Cruddas,
0:01:13 > 0:01:15resigned on Sunday after he suggested
0:01:15 > 0:01:19that money could buy influence within the party.
0:01:19 > 0:01:22Tonight, there are calls for stricter rules
0:01:22 > 0:01:24to control the lobbying industry here in Wales
0:01:24 > 0:01:27in order to avoid the kind of scandals that have occurred
0:01:27 > 0:01:30in Westminster over the years.
0:01:30 > 0:01:32James Williams reports.
0:01:36 > 0:01:40A housing charity setting up its stall before the May elections,
0:01:40 > 0:01:43just a stone's throw away from the Senedd.
0:01:43 > 0:01:47But how important is it to have the ear of a politician?
0:01:47 > 0:01:50It is very important.
0:01:50 > 0:01:52We have to make sure that there isn't too much of a gap
0:01:52 > 0:01:54between the people who create policy
0:01:54 > 0:01:57and bodies like housing organisations, for example,
0:01:57 > 0:02:00that are going to implement that policy.
0:02:00 > 0:02:02But it's very important that politicians
0:02:02 > 0:02:09listen to external bodies that are trying to deal with change.
0:02:09 > 0:02:12When the Senedd was designed, the idea was to create a building
0:02:12 > 0:02:15that would reflect the open and transparent nature
0:02:15 > 0:02:16of the new establishment.
0:02:16 > 0:02:20But some are concerned that those principles aren't being implemented
0:02:20 > 0:02:22in all aspects of the Government's work.
0:02:22 > 0:02:25Unlike the coalition in Westminster, the Welsh Government
0:02:25 > 0:02:28doesn't publish the details of its of meetings with lobbyists.
0:02:28 > 0:02:31That's despite the calls from the opposition parties
0:02:31 > 0:02:34and the industry itself to change the system.
0:02:34 > 0:02:37A month ago, BBC Wales asked the information
0:02:37 > 0:02:40about the First Minister's meetings with external bodies
0:02:40 > 0:02:43over a period of six months under the Freedom of Information Act.
0:02:43 > 0:02:45However, the request was rejected.
0:02:45 > 0:02:47A spokesperson for the Welsh Government said,
0:02:47 > 0:02:49"We're open and transparent
0:02:49 > 0:02:52"and we publish a wide variety of information.
0:02:52 > 0:02:56"One of the advantages of devolution is that ministers and officials
0:02:56 > 0:02:59"are much closer to the people."
0:02:59 > 0:03:02In January, a consultation was launched by the UK Government
0:03:02 > 0:03:06on introducing a legal register of lobbyists that meet ministers.
0:03:06 > 0:03:10There's an option to extend the register to include the Assembly.
0:03:10 > 0:03:13The group representing the industry in Wales
0:03:13 > 0:03:15is considering its response at the moment.
0:03:15 > 0:03:18To be honest, the Westminster Government hasn't gone far enough.
0:03:18 > 0:03:21We're willing to say that that at Public Affairs Wales.
0:03:21 > 0:03:24We hope that the Assembly commission and the Welsh Government
0:03:24 > 0:03:27will look at what's happening and the results of the consultation
0:03:27 > 0:03:31and say, the public affairs industry is more than just trading companies.
0:03:31 > 0:03:34There are charities and people that work for internal organisations,
0:03:34 > 0:03:36like we have in Public Affairs Wales.
0:03:36 > 0:03:38Our members come from a huge cross-section.
0:03:38 > 0:03:42So if you want to create new rules to govern the industry,
0:03:42 > 0:03:46you have to include everybody because that's what lobbying is.
0:03:46 > 0:03:49Cardiff Bay is a mix of politicians, lobbyists and journalists
0:03:49 > 0:03:53meeting in a variety of different formal and informal situations.
0:03:53 > 0:03:56People move to work from one side to the other relatively often.
0:03:56 > 0:04:01After all, the Welsh political world is a small world.
0:04:01 > 0:04:04And that's a concern for some.
0:04:04 > 0:04:06The danger in Cardiff, if there is one,
0:04:06 > 0:04:12is that the small bubble makes it easier for that to happen.
0:04:12 > 0:04:15People become very friendly.
0:04:15 > 0:04:18There are advantages to that as well as disadvantages
0:04:18 > 0:04:21but we've to be sure, as the public,
0:04:21 > 0:04:25that people aren't buying influence on policy.
0:04:25 > 0:04:27When the people of Wales voted in favour of extending
0:04:27 > 0:04:30the Assembly's powers last year, it became obvious
0:04:30 > 0:04:34that there would be more opportunities to influence on policy.
0:04:34 > 0:04:37Wales' public life and policy work has matured after devolution.
0:04:37 > 0:04:39That's a very good thing.
0:04:39 > 0:04:43There's a Welsh forum for making laws and policies now.
0:04:43 > 0:04:48We've been at the forefront of the way the lobbying industry works.
0:04:48 > 0:04:50We have a code of behaviour
0:04:50 > 0:04:54and we've been working very closely with the Assembly commission
0:04:54 > 0:04:56and the Assembly's Presiding Officer
0:04:56 > 0:04:59to find a Welsh answer for a Welsh industry.
0:04:59 > 0:05:02The industry in Wales is very different to the one in Westminster.
0:05:02 > 0:05:06So far, it is scandals in Westminster that have filled the newspapers.
0:05:06 > 0:05:11But as the lobbying industry in Cardiff Bay continues to grow,
0:05:11 > 0:05:14there's increasing pressure to ensure
0:05:14 > 0:05:16that the Assembly doesn't hit the headlines.
0:05:16 > 0:05:18James Williams reporting there.
0:05:18 > 0:05:25Daran, can you define what a lobbyist is for us?
0:05:25 > 0:05:30Anybody who meets any politician to discuss anything is lobbying.
0:05:30 > 0:05:32On one level, they are.
0:05:32 > 0:05:36But a lobbyist has a specific skill
0:05:36 > 0:05:42and that is helping shape information in an intelligent way
0:05:42 > 0:05:47with a lot of understanding for a political audience.
0:05:47 > 0:05:51So is the aim to persuade them to do something?
0:05:51 > 0:05:55Or is it just to provide information so that they can decide what to do?
0:05:55 > 0:05:59At the end of the day, politicians make the decisions.
0:05:59 > 0:06:02They're not stupid. Yes, you try to persuade people.
0:06:02 > 0:06:05You try to shape the information
0:06:05 > 0:06:09to make sure it has the biggest possible impact.
0:06:09 > 0:06:14But in a lot of ways, you are trying to make the process simpler.
0:06:14 > 0:06:17For example, if somebody comes to me
0:06:17 > 0:06:20and they have not used a lobbying company before,
0:06:20 > 0:06:24I don't arrange to speak on their behalf.
0:06:24 > 0:06:27I just give them some information or some advice
0:06:27 > 0:06:33about a legislative programme maybe, or how the Assembly works,
0:06:33 > 0:06:37so that they can make a better impact and a quicker one.
0:06:37 > 0:06:39Depending on how much that person pays you,
0:06:39 > 0:06:42can you offer different levels of influence?
0:06:42 > 0:06:45I don't offer influence.
0:06:45 > 0:06:50I offer information on how to shape the thing they're trying to do.
0:06:50 > 0:06:54Aled, Daran's company and other companies
0:06:54 > 0:07:00work for a wide variety of clients, but is there a difference
0:07:00 > 0:07:04between what he does and what you do on behalf of CYTUN?
0:07:04 > 0:07:06You're lobbying by coming in
0:07:06 > 0:07:09to discuss different things with ministers.
0:07:09 > 0:07:10But God pays better!
0:07:10 > 0:07:13I don't think there's much difference
0:07:13 > 0:07:16because at the end of the day, what we do is provide information.
0:07:16 > 0:07:18I will give you an example.
0:07:18 > 0:07:21Some years ago, we were dealing with refugees
0:07:21 > 0:07:24and we wanted a special scheme to train doctors.
0:07:24 > 0:07:27Now, around 74 doctors have been transferred
0:07:27 > 0:07:30to work in the health service.
0:07:30 > 0:07:33But we had to provide the minister with information
0:07:33 > 0:07:35and give information to officials
0:07:35 > 0:07:38about what was appropriate and suitable. It was persuasion.
0:07:38 > 0:07:40You can't buy anything
0:07:40 > 0:07:43but it was a process of transferring information
0:07:43 > 0:07:45in a professional way and I am proud of that.
0:07:45 > 0:07:47To be honest,
0:07:47 > 0:07:51I am quite confident in the industry in Wales on the whole.
0:07:51 > 0:07:53We do work on the basis of information and policy.
0:07:53 > 0:07:56There's a dog here ready to bark!
0:07:57 > 0:08:00Two different types of lobbyists here, trying to persuade people,
0:08:00 > 0:08:02what's wrong with that?
0:08:02 > 0:08:05It's influence they want to buy, and that's what they do.
0:08:05 > 0:08:07If you look at what comes out...
0:08:07 > 0:08:11I'll give you an example -
0:08:11 > 0:08:14when the backbenchers here put an application in
0:08:14 > 0:08:18for a law which would grant the right for lawmaking powers.
0:08:18 > 0:08:25When they were considering that at the beginning of this session,
0:08:25 > 0:08:30nearly three quarters of them said the same thing.
0:08:30 > 0:08:33Now, don't tell me they all saw the light and said,
0:08:33 > 0:08:35"Oh, that's what we want to do."
0:08:35 > 0:08:38No, it's because someone persuaded them to put that law in.
0:08:38 > 0:08:42Now, OK, there's no problem with that,
0:08:42 > 0:08:45if each individual in Wales, or any small body,
0:08:45 > 0:08:49has fair play to get the same influence.
0:08:49 > 0:08:52And you'll never do that, because they don't have the money to pay.
0:08:52 > 0:08:56And we pay these people to have influence, that's what it is.
0:08:56 > 0:08:59People who understand how to use the system, how to play the system,
0:08:59 > 0:09:02succeed, but people outside this system
0:09:02 > 0:09:04perhaps don't know of your existence or people like you,
0:09:04 > 0:09:06and can't have an influence.
0:09:06 > 0:09:11In the same ballot, the person who was chosen, Ken Skates,
0:09:11 > 0:09:15his idea was one he'd brought forward himself,
0:09:15 > 0:09:18with the support, some amount of support,
0:09:18 > 0:09:22from a very, very small charity.
0:09:22 > 0:09:25So I understand that people can sometimes see...
0:09:25 > 0:09:28- It's not black and white. - I understand that,
0:09:28 > 0:09:33but I back horse races and I know the outsider sometimes gets to win,
0:09:33 > 0:09:35but this time you were unlucky,
0:09:35 > 0:09:39but everyone else, three quarters of them, were in the ballot.
0:09:39 > 0:09:43I didn't work on that measure, I have to say,
0:09:43 > 0:09:48and none of my clients had tried to get any politicians
0:09:48 > 0:09:49into the first ballot.
0:09:49 > 0:09:50There was a good reason for that -
0:09:50 > 0:09:52I always think back to the First World War,
0:09:52 > 0:09:56- sending the sheep over the minefield before you go over it yourself. - BETHAN LAUGHS
0:09:56 > 0:09:57Can I ask you a question, Aled?
0:09:57 > 0:10:00It's something James raised in the film.
0:10:00 > 0:10:03The size of the bubble, if you like.
0:10:03 > 0:10:07That is, you see former AMs going to lobbying companies.
0:10:07 > 0:10:11If you go over there to the Eli Jenkins pub,
0:10:11 > 0:10:16you'll see ministers, journalists and lobbyists talking to each other.
0:10:16 > 0:10:19That is, you don't want to separate everyone
0:10:19 > 0:10:22and say that ministers and AMs can only drink in a bar
0:10:22 > 0:10:25where no-one else can go, but it is a problem, isn't it,
0:10:25 > 0:10:28that we're talking about quite a small circle of people
0:10:28 > 0:10:31who move back and forth.
0:10:31 > 0:10:37I'm not sure how realistic that is, to tell the truth,
0:10:37 > 0:10:39because, you know, the kind of things that concern me,
0:10:39 > 0:10:43a classic would be, I don't think the churches, for example,
0:10:43 > 0:10:48as Daran says, would have asked for a measure about organs, for example.
0:10:48 > 0:10:51There's a lot of very, very strong friction there
0:10:51 > 0:10:55between faith communities and very different lobbyists.
0:10:55 > 0:10:59And there is a very, very wide area of specialism
0:10:59 > 0:11:01which goes further than the Eli Jenkins,
0:11:01 > 0:11:03with that kind of power.
0:11:03 > 0:11:06And in a healthy democracy, and here I disagree with Gareth,
0:11:06 > 0:11:07you can't be innocent somewhere like this.
0:11:07 > 0:11:10This is a place where public policy is created.
0:11:10 > 0:11:14And it's very easy in a democracy to profess influence.
0:11:14 > 0:11:17And if you're good at your craft, not because of money or power,
0:11:17 > 0:11:19but because of the strength of your argument,
0:11:19 > 0:11:22you can have an influence.
0:11:22 > 0:11:26Gareth, do you think there's maladministration going on here,
0:11:26 > 0:11:29or is there a scandal waiting to be revealed,
0:11:29 > 0:11:31or is it just talking in a pub down the road?
0:11:31 > 0:11:35- Is there a scandal here? - We don't know.
0:11:35 > 0:11:38That's the problem. Nobody knows.
0:11:38 > 0:11:40There's no register of any of the lobbyists
0:11:40 > 0:11:41that already exist in Wales,
0:11:41 > 0:11:43we don't know how much connection there is.
0:11:43 > 0:11:48Carwyn refuses to publish what meetings he has with whom.
0:11:48 > 0:11:51So we don't know if there's influence being wielded or not.
0:11:51 > 0:11:54We don't know, and nobody knows at the moment, and that's the problem.
0:11:54 > 0:11:57- Nothing to hide, Daran?- I don't think there's anything to hide.
0:11:57 > 0:12:01Can I just state what Dewi said in the package just now,
0:12:01 > 0:12:03Public Affairs Cymru, the umbrella body,
0:12:03 > 0:12:06we want the Government to publish
0:12:06 > 0:12:08what meetings they have and with whom.
0:12:08 > 0:12:12We're also ready - at the moment, we're considering recommending
0:12:12 > 0:12:16that any meetings between AMs and lobbyists,
0:12:16 > 0:12:19that they should all be registered.
0:12:19 > 0:12:20There is an argument, Gareth.
0:12:20 > 0:12:24And if there's a register in Westminster, there'll have to be one here, won't there?
0:12:24 > 0:12:25Or it would look bad.
0:12:25 > 0:12:28Well, I believe that there's a chance for us here
0:12:28 > 0:12:30to go further than what's happening in Westminster,
0:12:30 > 0:12:35to be more open and more transparent about things.
0:12:35 > 0:12:39We don't have to follow Westminster, and to be honest,
0:12:39 > 0:12:42I wouldn't want to see the Westminster government
0:12:42 > 0:12:45drawing up a law that controls how the Assembly here runs
0:12:45 > 0:12:49in terms of operating on that level.
0:12:49 > 0:12:55Gareth, if we look at a strange connection,
0:12:55 > 0:12:58if we look at the referendum campaign last year,
0:12:58 > 0:13:01the "yes" campaign, and who was running it,
0:13:01 > 0:13:05it was full of lobbyists, Daran amongst them.
0:13:05 > 0:13:12Does that imply that there's excessive closeness
0:13:12 > 0:13:15between the politicians and the lobbyists?
0:13:15 > 0:13:18Well, that campaign was certainly run by...
0:13:18 > 0:13:20Daran was a leading figure in the effort
0:13:20 > 0:13:23for the referendum before that,
0:13:23 > 0:13:25and I don't blame the Government for asking...
0:13:25 > 0:13:28No, I'm not suggesting he was doing it for reasons...
0:13:28 > 0:13:30..for asking Daran to do that.
0:13:30 > 0:13:34But Welsh politics is certainly a small bubble,
0:13:34 > 0:13:36and there is influence.
0:13:36 > 0:13:37If he only says,
0:13:37 > 0:13:39"Well, I know the First Minister after that referendum,"
0:13:39 > 0:13:41it makes it easy, easier,
0:13:41 > 0:13:46for those people who are part of that bubble to contact him.
0:13:46 > 0:13:49- And that's their work. - Daran, come back on that point.
0:13:49 > 0:13:52Sorry, we don't sell cash for access.
0:13:52 > 0:13:53What people do is advise other bodies
0:13:53 > 0:13:57within the bodies they work for on how to operate better,
0:13:57 > 0:14:01and I think it's a bit of a slur on the First Minister
0:14:01 > 0:14:04and any other politician if you think it's easier
0:14:04 > 0:14:07to get some kind of access to the First Minister of Wales
0:14:07 > 0:14:11just because someone's happened to meet them in some former life.
0:14:11 > 0:14:15Well, it's easier for you to do that than Mrs Jones up the road in Bangor
0:14:15 > 0:14:16because you're close to him.
0:14:16 > 0:14:17That's what I'm saying.
0:14:17 > 0:14:22Can I say, let's get away from this stereotype
0:14:22 > 0:14:23that we're small and closed.
0:14:23 > 0:14:27I was quoted alongside an influential person on WikiLeaks,
0:14:27 > 0:14:30and it was all over the Western Mail.
0:14:30 > 0:14:32Thankfully, I'd told my employer,
0:14:32 > 0:14:36I'd told the people I was answerable to exactly what I was doing.
0:14:36 > 0:14:37And what we're doing here
0:14:37 > 0:14:40has meaning and influence far beyond Wales.
0:14:40 > 0:14:44And I think we have to be professional when we're doing this.
0:14:44 > 0:14:46This isn't a small bubble at all.
0:14:46 > 0:14:47Thank you very much.
0:14:47 > 0:14:50Well, it seems that the weekend's events
0:14:50 > 0:14:54will lead to cross-party discussions on party funding.
0:14:54 > 0:14:56There's no great disagreement in Westminster
0:14:56 > 0:14:59about the need to change the system,
0:14:59 > 0:15:01but reaching that aim is proving more difficult.
0:15:01 > 0:15:05We asked some shoppers in Carmarthen whether they'd be willing
0:15:05 > 0:15:09to pay for political parties through their taxes.
0:15:09 > 0:15:14If parties are being funded through inappropriate means,
0:15:14 > 0:15:19such as giving dinner to people, I think that's unfair
0:15:19 > 0:15:23because it's not all above board.
0:15:23 > 0:15:27So I'd hope... It's up to each party to get its money,
0:15:27 > 0:15:29and when it works like that,
0:15:29 > 0:15:32it needs to be done in a fair way, I think.
0:15:32 > 0:15:36I don't know, I've been thinking about this matter.
0:15:36 > 0:15:41What kind of cap could we place on them, and what would the limit be.
0:15:41 > 0:15:44But it's obvious that we need to do something about the present system.
0:15:44 > 0:15:47We pay enough already.
0:15:47 > 0:15:52- I pay poll tax, pay water, I pay all those things.- Yes.
0:15:52 > 0:15:54I don't believe in it much. I've lost faith in these MPs.
0:15:57 > 0:16:00I've lost faith in them.
0:16:00 > 0:16:03They raid the country worse than normal people.
0:16:03 > 0:16:08We're being asked to pay for a lot of things already,
0:16:08 > 0:16:10so asking for additional things
0:16:10 > 0:16:13will just push ordinary people lower down,
0:16:13 > 0:16:15and they'll just be fighting then
0:16:15 > 0:16:18to keep their heads above water, really.
0:16:18 > 0:16:20Well, no, I don't want to pay.
0:16:20 > 0:16:23No, I'm happy as it is now.
0:16:23 > 0:16:26I don't want to pay extra on my taxation, no.
0:16:27 > 0:16:29Yes, the people of Carmarthen there.
0:16:29 > 0:16:31Gareth, that's the problem, isn't it?
0:16:31 > 0:16:35If you want to clean up politics, if you like,
0:16:35 > 0:16:36public money is maybe the answer,
0:16:36 > 0:16:39and things are tight, and people don't want to pay.
0:16:39 > 0:16:41No, and I don't blame them, to be honest.
0:16:41 > 0:16:44On the one hand, you're a member of a party,
0:16:44 > 0:16:46and you pay your money into that party,
0:16:46 > 0:16:50and that's how money is raised for elections.
0:16:50 > 0:16:55Now, of course, the cost of election campaigns has gone up and up and up,
0:16:55 > 0:16:58so you're talking about big money.
0:16:58 > 0:17:00I think it's possible to cap the amount
0:17:00 > 0:17:04each party can spend on an election, but you need some kind of formula
0:17:04 > 0:17:06that doesn't disadvantage poorer parties,
0:17:06 > 0:17:09for example the Liberal Democrats,
0:17:09 > 0:17:13they're at a disadvantage at the moment.
0:17:13 > 0:17:16And you have to give the choice to the unions
0:17:16 > 0:17:19to choose more than one party.
0:17:19 > 0:17:21If you're a member of a union,
0:17:21 > 0:17:25currently you can choose to give your money to the Labour Party,
0:17:25 > 0:17:28but you don't have the right to give your money to any other party.
0:17:28 > 0:17:30I think that's disadvantageous.
0:17:30 > 0:17:34That's a big problem, isn't it, the unions and the Labour Party, Daran.
0:17:34 > 0:17:36If you're going to restrict individuals' donations,
0:17:36 > 0:17:38you have to look at the unions, don't you?
0:17:38 > 0:17:42Well, but you also have the factor
0:17:42 > 0:17:46that the Labour Party grew out of the trade union movement
0:17:46 > 0:17:49to be a representative voice for them in Westminster.
0:17:49 > 0:17:52So I think it's much more complicated than some people claim,
0:17:52 > 0:17:56especially when they just attack trade unions.
0:17:56 > 0:18:00Having said that, I think Gareth has a valuable point
0:18:00 > 0:18:05about the way unions are restricted to one party only, perhaps.
0:18:05 > 0:18:07Can I raise another point with you, Daran,
0:18:07 > 0:18:09we heard today the former Labour Party general secretary
0:18:09 > 0:18:11saying that the essence of the problem
0:18:11 > 0:18:14is that parties spend too much, and spend unnecessarily.
0:18:14 > 0:18:17He said, "Look, in the last general election,
0:18:17 > 0:18:20"the Labour Party had no money, to be honest,
0:18:20 > 0:18:24"we couldn't afford posters, but the campaign was just as effective."
0:18:24 > 0:18:27And there's some kind of war, an arms race,
0:18:27 > 0:18:29going on between the parties,
0:18:29 > 0:18:31and the truth is that they spend too much.
0:18:31 > 0:18:34That might be a very valuable point he's making,
0:18:34 > 0:18:38spending has risen and risen and risen.
0:18:38 > 0:18:40There's thinking within the Labour Party
0:18:40 > 0:18:43that they have to in some way match the Conservative Party,
0:18:43 > 0:18:45because the Conservative Party
0:18:45 > 0:18:49usually has a lot more money than the Labour Party specifically.
0:18:49 > 0:18:54Personally, I don't... Perhaps a cap would solve that problem,
0:18:54 > 0:18:57but personally, I don't agree with a cap, either.
0:18:57 > 0:19:01Well, Aled, campaigning is cheaper, possibly. You tweet non-stop.
0:19:01 > 0:19:05It's possible to campaign by pressing a button these days,
0:19:05 > 0:19:08there's no need for big, colourful manifestos, and so on.
0:19:08 > 0:19:11To a point. Darren and I were busy with the Yes campaign
0:19:11 > 0:19:17and Twitter was important once there was no money for it.
0:19:17 > 0:19:19When I was on the All Wales Convention,
0:19:19 > 0:19:26our main concern was people wouldn't get the proper debate.
0:19:26 > 0:19:32I think that this is making the problem worse.
0:19:32 > 0:19:38We haven't got our own national newspaper which is widely read.
0:19:38 > 0:19:43Rupert Murdoch can have more influence on our politics
0:19:43 > 0:19:45than what's healthy.
0:19:45 > 0:19:49You raised the point about the less affluent parties.
0:19:49 > 0:19:55How would that work if we do go and spend money from the public purse?
0:19:55 > 0:20:01Labour could centrally spend a specific amount of money in the UK.
0:20:01 > 0:20:03Plaid Cymru only in Wales. How would that work?
0:20:03 > 0:20:09You would have to work to a formula
0:20:09 > 0:20:13to make sure that other parties aren't disadvantaged.
0:20:13 > 0:20:18It's possible that you could have something public like that,
0:20:18 > 0:20:23then the extreme parties would get money
0:20:23 > 0:20:27and the public wouldn't be happy with that.
0:20:27 > 0:20:30You have to be sensitive regarding how you go about it.
0:20:30 > 0:20:34I believe that Lloyd George is right. Selling honours.
0:20:34 > 0:20:41That's the right way of raising money. He was right.
0:20:41 > 0:20:44It was just snobbery.
0:20:44 > 0:20:47It is hard because Westminster decides.
0:20:47 > 0:20:53Multi-party talks are going ahead in Westminster
0:20:53 > 0:20:57where people can get so many pennies
0:20:57 > 0:21:01for voting in Westminster only
0:21:01 > 0:21:05and that doesn't benefit Plaid Cymru.
0:21:05 > 0:21:12You can't give money to Welsh parties because the Tory Party
0:21:12 > 0:21:15and the Welsh Labour Party doesn't exist separately.
0:21:15 > 0:21:21The body of the Scottish churches have also made the same point
0:21:21 > 0:21:25in terms of lobbying and financially.
0:21:25 > 0:21:29You have to have a devolved debate about it.
0:21:29 > 0:21:31I think that is very important.
0:21:34 > 0:21:39But at least in Scotland, the Tories and Labour are units and are parties.
0:21:39 > 0:21:42The Welsh Labour Party and the Welsh Conservatives are not.
0:21:42 > 0:21:48The most natural thing to do is to give them these structures in Wales.
0:21:48 > 0:21:53When you look at the Assembly elections,
0:21:53 > 0:21:57Plaid Cymru spent the most and they were in the lead.
0:21:57 > 0:21:59No, the Tories were in the lead.
0:21:59 > 0:22:05- I thought it was Plaid Cymru. - So, what's the answer then?
0:22:05 > 0:22:10If there's no desire to take it from the taxpayers, what's the answer?
0:22:10 > 0:22:16The dining with Mr Cameron will carry on.
0:22:16 > 0:22:22I don't think that there is an elementary problem with the system.
0:22:22 > 0:22:27What we need are rules on some aspects
0:22:27 > 0:22:33like the Come Dine With Me, or whatever you want to call it.
0:22:33 > 0:22:38As long as you deal with those bits, I think you're all right.
0:22:38 > 0:22:43I don't think that people want to pay for political parties
0:22:43 > 0:22:46through tax.
0:22:46 > 0:22:50But you pay for influence.
0:22:50 > 0:22:53It's on all the parties' websites.
0:22:53 > 0:22:56The President's Club.
0:22:56 > 0:23:01Or the Leader's Club. It depends which parties you go to.
0:23:01 > 0:23:03Yes, but Politicians are not stupid.
0:23:03 > 0:23:10At the end of the day, they are answerable for their decisions.
0:23:10 > 0:23:15I don't think they are so naive to think
0:23:15 > 0:23:21that just because they have paid for dinner that they can change
0:23:21 > 0:23:25a politician's mind. My life would be easier if it happened like that.
0:23:25 > 0:23:29But we do remember the time when Tony Blair and Formula 1
0:23:29 > 0:23:31when they wanted to tackle smoking.
0:23:31 > 0:23:34They had to withdraw
0:23:34 > 0:23:38because a lot of money was given to the Labour Party.
0:23:38 > 0:23:42All the parties have had difficulties.
0:23:42 > 0:23:45Thank you very much, our chat has come to an end.
0:23:45 > 0:23:48That's all for tonight. We're having a break for a fortnight
0:23:48 > 0:23:52but we'll be back on 18 April and by then, the candidates
0:23:52 > 0:23:56will be knocking on doors to get your vote
0:23:56 > 0:24:00in the local elections in May.
0:24:00 > 0:24:05- Until then, goodnight and have a happy Easter.- Goodnight.