0:00:20 > 0:00:27Good evening and welcome to CF99, for half an hour of live debate.
0:00:27 > 0:00:33Tonight, who will be getting your vote at the local elections and why?
0:00:33 > 0:00:38Will local matters of national matters help you decide?
0:00:38 > 0:00:43And a chance to take a look at one of our local authorities' biggest bills, education.
0:00:43 > 0:00:47And you can get involved on Twitter.
0:00:49 > 0:00:55We're joined tonight by Baroness Morgan of Ely, Eluned Morgan to you and me, from Labour.
0:00:55 > 0:01:01And Councillor John Davies, leader of Pembrokeshire Council and the WLGA.
0:01:01 > 0:01:05In our Bangor newsroom, we have Plaid Cymru AM Alun Ffred Jones,
0:01:05 > 0:01:08who leads the party's local election campaign. Welcome.
0:01:08 > 0:01:14Politicians from the other parties will be here to give their opinions next week.
0:01:14 > 0:01:19The main parties have launched their campaigns and the candidates
0:01:19 > 0:01:24are already pounding the streets and knocking on those doors.
0:01:24 > 0:01:30Yes, there's another election, but what will influence your vote as you choose your local councillors?
0:01:30 > 0:01:35The state of the streets, or the parties in Cardiff Bay and Westminster?
0:01:35 > 0:01:40James Williams is looking for answers, beginning in Caernarfon.
0:01:45 > 0:01:50Four years on from the last local elections,
0:01:50 > 0:01:55the fate of the main parties relies on public opinion, as ever.
0:01:55 > 0:01:59Apart from the people of Anglesey, the rest of Wales will be voting
0:01:59 > 0:02:02for their councillors in just over a fortnight.
0:02:02 > 0:02:07These people are responsible for a number of local decisions that affect our lives.
0:02:07 > 0:02:11They set council tax, decide when the bins are collected
0:02:11 > 0:02:16and they also run the education, transport and social care systems.
0:02:16 > 0:02:18But are people aware of that?
0:02:20 > 0:02:26To an extent, yes. But I hardly ever see anyone knocking on my door.
0:02:26 > 0:02:30And when they do, you never see them again.
0:02:30 > 0:02:33So I don't know who I'm going to vote for.
0:02:33 > 0:02:37What's important to you when you vote in the local elections?
0:02:37 > 0:02:42A good man. A man in which you can depend.
0:02:42 > 0:02:44- More than the policies?- Yes.
0:02:44 > 0:02:46Local people go to the councillors,
0:02:46 > 0:02:52the councillors go to the council, they do something and so on.
0:02:52 > 0:02:57According to the American saying, the heart of politics is local.
0:02:57 > 0:03:01We saw an example of that in this area in the 2008 local elections
0:03:01 > 0:03:05when Gwynedd Council's schools reorganisation policy
0:03:05 > 0:03:07influenced the result.
0:03:07 > 0:03:11But it's obvious that what happens outside the council meetings
0:03:11 > 0:03:14also plays a role in the local elections.
0:03:19 > 0:03:23In Aberystwyth, there is another matter influencing things.
0:03:23 > 0:03:27Proposed changes to Ysbyty Brongalis are a concern for local people.
0:03:27 > 0:03:32More than 500 campaigners took their protest to the Senedd over a month ago.
0:03:33 > 0:03:38I think we have more of an idea right across Wales,
0:03:38 > 0:03:43but also in areas like Ceredigion, that the decisions in Wales
0:03:43 > 0:03:45are made at the Assembly.
0:03:45 > 0:03:48So I hope that we as a nation can see that the power
0:03:48 > 0:03:54is in Cardiff Bay.
0:03:54 > 0:03:58But for some, this election will be a vote on the economy and living standards.
0:03:58 > 0:04:04National politics has an influence on local elections.
0:04:04 > 0:04:06So what we expect to see the parties
0:04:06 > 0:04:11that are popular on a British level to do well.
0:04:11 > 0:04:15If they're doing well in the opinion polls,
0:04:15 > 0:04:18they should do well in the local elections.
0:04:18 > 0:04:22On the other hand, when they're unpopular we expect them
0:04:22 > 0:04:26to have a hard time.
0:04:30 > 0:04:35Following the local elections in 2008, David Cameron visited Barry
0:04:35 > 0:04:39to celebrate the Conservatives' success in taking the Vale of Glamorgan.
0:04:39 > 0:04:44For many, it was a referendum on Gordon Brown and the Labour Party.
0:04:44 > 0:04:49But four years on, David Cameron is prime minister of a coalition government and the Conservatives
0:04:49 > 0:04:56and the Liberal Democrats are behind in the opinion polls. Will the results reflect that?
0:04:56 > 0:05:01I'm more than happy with the Westminster Government's record.
0:05:01 > 0:05:05The message may have been complicated recently.
0:05:05 > 0:05:08That's why I think it's important that people vote locally
0:05:08 > 0:05:11for what is important to them locally.
0:05:11 > 0:05:17We have a good record, we have a good story and I hope people will reflect on that when voting.
0:05:17 > 0:05:20Across the country, from Caernarfon to Barry,
0:05:20 > 0:05:23there are different patterns to politics.
0:05:23 > 0:05:28But we will have to wait until the start of May to test the waters.
0:05:30 > 0:05:35As James began in the north, we might as well start there too.
0:05:35 > 0:05:41Alun Ffred Jones, local elections but I'm sure this will also be some sort of a referendum
0:05:41 > 0:05:46on the popularity of the Westminster Government and possibly Cardiff Bay.
0:05:46 > 0:05:49Yes, it's a mixture.
0:05:49 > 0:05:55The influence of what is happening in London and maybe the unpopularity
0:05:55 > 0:05:59of the Tories and the Lib Dems to an extent will affect the urban areas
0:05:59 > 0:06:05where everyone usually stands for a particular party.
0:06:05 > 0:06:11In rural areas, in villages, personality becomes more important.
0:06:11 > 0:06:17But local circumstances of a local decision
0:06:17 > 0:06:23regarding a planning application or a row can also influence matters.
0:06:23 > 0:06:27So you often see a mixture of things.
0:06:27 > 0:06:31But one thing I would say is it would be a pity if this became
0:06:31 > 0:06:36a referendum on the Westminster Government's performance.
0:06:36 > 0:06:39After all, you're voting for people to run local services.
0:06:39 > 0:06:42That's what we have tried to emphasise,
0:06:42 > 0:06:46the importance of electing people you can rely upon.
0:06:46 > 0:06:49It's a difficult situation,
0:06:49 > 0:06:52regardless of who is in charge in London.
0:06:52 > 0:06:56There is no money available. There will be less money available.
0:06:56 > 0:06:59Everyone will be facing difficult decisions.
0:06:59 > 0:07:03You need responsible people in charge.
0:07:03 > 0:07:06Eluned Morgan, is it right that we have Carwyn Jones
0:07:06 > 0:07:11and Peter Hain calling for voters to send a message to Cameron and Clegg?
0:07:11 > 0:07:17"It's your chance to voice your opinion on the Budget." These are supposed to be local elections.
0:07:17 > 0:07:25Yes, but remember in 2008, we paid a high price for the fact that people were voting on Gordon Brown.
0:07:25 > 0:07:28We paid a high price for that.
0:07:28 > 0:07:34I think what you must remember is whatever happens,
0:07:34 > 0:07:38it will be dissected on a national level.
0:07:38 > 0:07:42And if that goes in favour of the Tories
0:07:42 > 0:07:46and the Lib Dems, I think they will be very pleased.
0:07:46 > 0:07:50But this could be a lucky election for you as a party.
0:07:50 > 0:07:56You had a disappointing result last time, losing 5% of the vote.
0:07:56 > 0:08:00To an extent, you're bound to do better this time.
0:08:00 > 0:08:06And also what has happened since the Budget.
0:08:06 > 0:08:09The wind is blowing against the coalition at Westminster.
0:08:09 > 0:08:15Well, we hope so. I think they have made mistakes.
0:08:15 > 0:08:20- People are furious about the cuts. - But it will be a negative vote against them,
0:08:20 > 0:08:24rather than a positive one in favour of your ideas.
0:08:24 > 0:08:28Of course, what we want is for people to look at what
0:08:28 > 0:08:32is happening locally, that's what we've tried to do.
0:08:32 > 0:08:35There is no national campaign this time.
0:08:35 > 0:08:42What we have is every local authority acting on what is important locally.
0:08:42 > 0:08:49It will be difficult for us to say - this is the Welsh campaign.
0:08:49 > 0:08:53It's not happening that way this time.
0:08:53 > 0:08:57Back in 2008, for the first time in years,
0:08:57 > 0:09:01more independent councillors were elected than from any of the parties.
0:09:01 > 0:09:08Does it sadden you to hear the parties trying to make this a referendum?
0:09:08 > 0:09:12This is difficult for you, standing independently.
0:09:12 > 0:09:16I don't think it's difficult. It strengthens our hand.
0:09:16 > 0:09:19When you see the 2008 result,
0:09:19 > 0:09:25more independent councillors than any party, but it is a referendum on local services,
0:09:25 > 0:09:30local provision and local politicians.
0:09:30 > 0:09:32Local government...
0:09:32 > 0:09:36It's St David politics - do the small things.
0:09:36 > 0:09:39We all know as politicians on different levels,
0:09:39 > 0:09:44it's the small things that matter to people.
0:09:44 > 0:09:49- All politics is local. - But are you entirely independent?
0:09:49 > 0:09:53We've heard about these covert Conservatives and Lib Dems.
0:09:53 > 0:09:58Is there any such thing as an entirely independent councillor these days?
0:09:58 > 0:10:01People are standing independently.
0:10:01 > 0:10:04They're standing on what they believe. Alun was right.
0:10:04 > 0:10:10It's down to those individuals. People have to buy into that.
0:10:10 > 0:10:16Otherwise you wouldn't have had an independent majority.
0:10:16 > 0:10:22I know we are a thorn in the side of the political parties because we take votes.
0:10:22 > 0:10:27But the fact is people are important, not party politics.
0:10:27 > 0:10:33These independent candidates are elected
0:10:33 > 0:10:37and then they form a party or a group within the council.
0:10:37 > 0:10:39They are often whipped.
0:10:39 > 0:10:44So they behave like a party but with no manifesto.
0:10:44 > 0:10:51I accept there is a place for independents in local government,
0:10:51 > 0:10:57but in reality you are not independent once you are governing.
0:10:57 > 0:11:01That's an old line, as far as the whip.
0:11:01 > 0:11:04It comes out during every election.
0:11:04 > 0:11:08There is no whip. You can't whip true independents.
0:11:08 > 0:11:15But we are seeing, I won't go after Anglesey because there are no elections there,
0:11:15 > 0:11:19but people stand as independents and then after that...
0:11:19 > 0:11:23In Powys you have the Pigs and the Nigs, as they're called.
0:11:23 > 0:11:27You have an independent group and then independent independent and so on.
0:11:27 > 0:11:32Shouldn't there be some sort of manifesto or some kind
0:11:32 > 0:11:37of indication from the independent candidate as to what he or she intends?
0:11:37 > 0:11:41There should be a manifesto when there is an independent group
0:11:41 > 0:11:44putting itself forward as an independent party.
0:11:44 > 0:11:48The fact is you have a collection of individuals
0:11:48 > 0:11:51and they are there to do what they believe is right,
0:11:51 > 0:11:56without being influenced by political parties or party whips.
0:11:56 > 0:12:03If that is not acceptable then the majority will be reduced on May 4th.
0:12:03 > 0:12:12That is the situation. People are sick of party politics.
0:12:12 > 0:12:18Eluned, what's the behind this idea of not having a national Labour manifesto?
0:12:18 > 0:12:22Is it laziness? A lack of a message? Or is it devolution?
0:12:22 > 0:12:26I think it is devolution, but also an acknowledgement that what
0:12:26 > 0:12:31happens locally is something on which local people should decide.
0:12:31 > 0:12:37That is something very different to what we have seen in the past.
0:12:37 > 0:12:40Coming back to this point,
0:12:40 > 0:12:45with independent people there is a lack of accountability.
0:12:45 > 0:12:50When you decide on school closures or this and that,
0:12:50 > 0:12:58there is no way for people to come back to the group. They can only return to the individual.
0:12:58 > 0:13:04And the other thing is I think there is a danger the people who really have the power then is the officers
0:13:04 > 0:13:12who run the council because there is no wider vision within a group.
0:13:12 > 0:13:17If that is the case, why did the people of Wales, four years ago,
0:13:17 > 0:13:22choose more independent councillors than Labour councillors?
0:13:22 > 0:13:27And saying we are not accountable - there is accountability.
0:13:27 > 0:13:32There is nothing more accountable than the voting booth.
0:13:32 > 0:13:35Thank you. The gap between what is spent on pupils in England
0:13:35 > 0:13:38and Wales has had plenty of attention.
0:13:38 > 0:13:44But what about the differences between different councils in Wales?
0:13:44 > 0:13:47Government figures show that some local authorities are better
0:13:47 > 0:13:50than others in ensuring that money reaches the classroom.
0:13:50 > 0:13:55By why? Carl Roberts has been scratching his head.
0:13:55 > 0:14:02It's a common complaint that less money is spent on education in Wales, compared to England.
0:14:02 > 0:14:07It's around £600 per head per year, on average.
0:14:07 > 0:14:14But the differences between the different councils is also striking.
0:14:14 > 0:14:19On average, nearly £5,500 per head is spent every year.
0:14:19 > 0:14:25That figure corresponds to 76% being distributed directly to schools,
0:14:25 > 0:14:29with authorities retaining the remainder centrally.
0:14:29 > 0:14:35We want to ensure that the bureaucracy is reduced.
0:14:35 > 0:14:39Where it is possible, we must ensure that every penny is used.
0:14:39 > 0:14:42The Welsh Government wants to see high levels of spending
0:14:42 > 0:14:44reaching the frontline.
0:14:44 > 0:14:47It's 80% at the moment. They want to see that rising to 85%.
0:14:47 > 0:14:50If that happens without increasing the bureaucracy,
0:14:50 > 0:14:53that will improve the situation.
0:14:53 > 0:14:56But there is no certainty that spending more money on frontline
0:14:56 > 0:15:01services will close the spending gap between local authorities.
0:15:01 > 0:15:06According to the latest figures, Ceredigion Council
0:15:06 > 0:15:11spends the most on education, nearly £6,500 per child on average.
0:15:11 > 0:15:16In the Vale of Glamorgan, the council spends less than £5,000 per head on education.
0:15:16 > 0:15:20That's a difference of over £1,500.
0:15:20 > 0:15:22Spending more is not always positive.
0:15:22 > 0:15:25You have to consider the standard of the education, the standard
0:15:25 > 0:15:29of the building and the standard of support the child receives.
0:15:29 > 0:15:32That also affects the child's attitude,
0:15:32 > 0:15:37the parent's attitude towards the school and the teachers' attitudes.
0:15:37 > 0:15:43That will also be reflected in the school's performance.
0:15:43 > 0:15:46The Welsh Government is also keen to see more money reaching the classroom
0:15:46 > 0:15:50and says that local authorities have agreed to increase the percentage
0:15:50 > 0:15:55of money spent by the schools themselves over the coming years.
0:15:58 > 0:16:01John Davies, wearing your WLGA hat now,
0:16:01 > 0:16:05explain first of all why the money that comes from here
0:16:05 > 0:16:09to the local authorities doesn't go straight to the schools.
0:16:09 > 0:16:16We've heard around 76% on average. What about that other quarter?
0:16:16 > 0:16:2076%, there is an agreement to increase that to 85%,
0:16:20 > 0:16:23as mentioned in the report.
0:16:23 > 0:16:26But there is a lot more behind the headlines.
0:16:26 > 0:16:29You need to compare like with like.
0:16:29 > 0:16:32Special needs education requires a lot of spending.
0:16:32 > 0:16:36And that happens in different ways in different local authorities.
0:16:36 > 0:16:41Ceredigion, at the top of the tree as regards spending,
0:16:41 > 0:16:45but Ceredigion has more small schools per head than many other counties.
0:16:45 > 0:16:50Their spending is not necessarily going to the classroom,
0:16:50 > 0:16:54or the individual pupil, it's going to the location.
0:16:54 > 0:16:58In the Vale, there are good results.
0:16:58 > 0:17:02The education authority has a good reputation,
0:17:02 > 0:17:05but less money is being spent.
0:17:05 > 0:17:091,300 on average is kept back in reserve.
0:17:09 > 0:17:15- Transport in Powys and Gwynedd... - Is too much held back in reserve?
0:17:15 > 0:17:22Clearly, there's a commitment to increase the amount reaching the schools.
0:17:22 > 0:17:26There are good reasons for that. Transport is a part of that.
0:17:26 > 0:17:31In places like Powys, transport in rural areas is much higher
0:17:31 > 0:17:35than it is in somewhere like Merthyr.
0:17:35 > 0:17:40When you look at that factor, the bureaucracy, there's not much in it.
0:17:40 > 0:17:43It's very small.
0:17:43 > 0:17:49Is money the important thing here? John mentioned the Vale of Glamorgan.
0:17:49 > 0:17:55We know that some of these schools are getting the best results in Wales.
0:17:55 > 0:18:00Comparing like with like is important.
0:18:00 > 0:18:03You have to be very careful.
0:18:03 > 0:18:08If you have a lot of schools, a lot of money is spent on buildings
0:18:08 > 0:18:10and heating and wages, of course.
0:18:10 > 0:18:17Special needs education also, if you have to place a child outside the county as a result
0:18:17 > 0:18:22of special needs, that can cost £50,000 to £100,000 per head.
0:18:22 > 0:18:27Maybe more in some cases. That all affects the picture.
0:18:27 > 0:18:35What I think is important is to remember the bigger the school,
0:18:35 > 0:18:41the more money you can take directly to deal with situations.
0:18:41 > 0:18:46But if you're in a comparatively small school and you have a child
0:18:46 > 0:18:51with special needs, you can't look after that child within
0:18:51 > 0:18:56the amount received by the school, so the situation is complicated.
0:18:56 > 0:19:01You need to be careful when comparing different counties.
0:19:01 > 0:19:04As you found in Gwynedd four years ago, and as other councils
0:19:04 > 0:19:09have seen, sometimes it's very difficult to explain to parents
0:19:09 > 0:19:13- to get the best value for money, we have to make difficult decisions.
0:19:13 > 0:19:19To be fair, communities have strong ties to their schools.
0:19:19 > 0:19:24That is particularly strong in rural areas. And especially in Gwynedd.
0:19:24 > 0:19:29I think that a lesson was learned.
0:19:29 > 0:19:32Although the aims were fair.
0:19:32 > 0:19:37Other counties have closed schools with much less fuss, including Ceredigion.
0:19:37 > 0:19:41But it is not a matter of closing schools.
0:19:41 > 0:19:47It's seeing what's best and how you can make the most out of the money you have.
0:19:47 > 0:19:52This is a debate that is continuing and will continue.
0:19:52 > 0:19:56But with fewer children, especially in some rural areas,
0:19:56 > 0:20:00some parts of Wales, it is a fragile situation.
0:20:00 > 0:20:04Not just in primary schools, but in secondary schools.
0:20:04 > 0:20:10For parents watching who are concerned about their children's education,
0:20:10 > 0:20:16the curriculum is decided here. AMs make those decisions. But councillors are important.
0:20:16 > 0:20:18Yes, they are.
0:20:18 > 0:20:23As a parent, what is important is that your child has a good education.
0:20:23 > 0:20:30They're not comparing this county with that county.
0:20:30 > 0:20:34We have to compare performances with our friends in England.
0:20:34 > 0:20:38Our children will be competing with them in a few years' time.
0:20:38 > 0:20:42Unless we sort out the problems right across Wales,
0:20:42 > 0:20:44there will be problems.
0:20:44 > 0:20:49So we should be concentrating on raising standards.
0:20:49 > 0:20:53But that's the job of Leighton Andrews.
0:20:53 > 0:20:57But it's not possible to do this without cooperation.
0:20:57 > 0:21:05It's a fact that there has been an agreement between local government and the Assembly.
0:21:05 > 0:21:09People understand on the two levels that it is a problem
0:21:09 > 0:21:13and we must work together to raise standards.
0:21:13 > 0:21:17I don't want to discuss the Assembly too much,
0:21:17 > 0:21:21but Labour has been in power for 12 years.
0:21:21 > 0:21:25It's a bit late to start realising there's a problem.
0:21:25 > 0:21:29Well, there is a problem. We've seen there is a problem.
0:21:29 > 0:21:34Maybe we should have been acting sooner, but this is where we are.
0:21:34 > 0:21:36We've seen there is a target.
0:21:36 > 0:21:41We've increased the amount of money we spend on education.
0:21:41 > 0:21:46So I hope we will now see an improvement.
0:21:46 > 0:21:51I'm glad that Eluned acknowledges that there is a problem.
0:21:51 > 0:21:54It has been 12 years.
0:21:54 > 0:21:58What is needed now is to learn from that failure
0:21:58 > 0:22:03and let our teachers do the simple thing, to educate our children.
0:22:03 > 0:22:05With the best will in the world,
0:22:05 > 0:22:10we've tried to do too much within the curriculum.
0:22:10 > 0:22:14We need those basic elements to teach our children.
0:22:14 > 0:22:18Would that be the independent manifesto?
0:22:18 > 0:22:24The Pembrokeshire Council manifesto has always been very close, as regards education.
0:22:24 > 0:22:27Alun mentioned spending and school closures,
0:22:27 > 0:22:32Pembrokeshire Council has been leading the way.
0:22:32 > 0:22:37Eluned mentioned the importance of bringing the councils and the assembly together.
0:22:37 > 0:22:44- As regards independent members, that is not possible.- Of course it is. It now happens regionally.
0:22:44 > 0:22:50Every council in Wales has signed an agreement with the education minister to raise standards.
0:22:50 > 0:22:55We all realise the importance of that.
0:22:55 > 0:22:59Alun Ffred, you have been a minister, a council leader,
0:22:59 > 0:23:02is the relationship close enough?
0:23:02 > 0:23:07No. And there is a lot of nonsense talked about links
0:23:07 > 0:23:11between ministers and local government.
0:23:11 > 0:23:15I'm sure John will say everything is fine.
0:23:15 > 0:23:19But the truth is it is not always good.
0:23:19 > 0:23:22We must avoid what has happened in England
0:23:22 > 0:23:28where we have seen the minister virtually attacking teachers and schools.
0:23:28 > 0:23:32I think we need to raise standards, that is true.
0:23:32 > 0:23:36All parents want the best for their children.
0:23:36 > 0:23:39It's important there's an understanding
0:23:39 > 0:23:45and we don't try to break teachers and schools by being over critical.
0:23:45 > 0:23:48But the performance is not consistent.
0:23:48 > 0:23:52- There are some weak areas.- Sorry, on that note, we must leave it.
0:23:52 > 0:23:54Thank you. That's it for tonight.
0:23:54 > 0:23:58We'll be back at the same time next Wednesday.
0:23:58 > 0:24:02We'll be joined by the Conservatives and the Lib Dems.
0:24:02 > 0:24:05- Until then, good night.- Good night.