0:00:19 > 0:00:24Hello and welcome to CF99 for half an hour of political discussion.
0:00:24 > 0:00:25Tonight, the euro is in peril
0:00:25 > 0:00:29and what is the effect on the Welsh economy?
0:00:29 > 0:00:32And does the way we elect Assembly Members need to change?
0:00:32 > 0:00:37We will discuss the Welsh Secretary's comments.
0:00:37 > 0:00:40Joining us tonight is the AM and former Plaid Cymru leader,
0:00:40 > 0:00:46Ieuan Wyn Jones. Economist Dr Martin Rhisiart,
0:00:46 > 0:00:49and Conservative MP, Guto Bebb, who joins us from our Westminster.
0:00:49 > 0:00:52Welcome.
0:00:52 > 0:00:55The leaders of the eurozone countries are in Brussels
0:00:55 > 0:01:01to try to ease the strain on the euro in Greece and beyond.
0:01:01 > 0:01:04It is quite a task bearing in mind the OECD warns the euro crisis
0:01:04 > 0:01:09is the biggest threat to the global economy.
0:01:09 > 0:01:12But what are the possible repercussions here in Wales?
0:01:12 > 0:01:15James Williams reports.
0:01:25 > 0:01:28The Greek Orthodox Church in Cardiff.
0:01:28 > 0:01:33Congregants here are seeing their country suffer in the distance.
0:01:33 > 0:01:35After uncertainty, they say it is difficult
0:01:35 > 0:01:39for the country to keep its faith in the euro.
0:01:39 > 0:01:42I'm concerned about the situation.
0:01:42 > 0:01:47I don't want to see what happened in the '30s
0:01:47 > 0:01:50happen again to the country of Greece.
0:01:50 > 0:01:55We have to make sure that people can turn against each other.
0:01:55 > 0:01:57The danger is what happens in Greece
0:01:57 > 0:02:00could cause a domino-effect in Europe.
0:02:00 > 0:02:04David Cameron has said he is considering the general election
0:02:04 > 0:02:08in Greece as a referendum on being part of Europe.
0:02:08 > 0:02:11The prime minister is worried that if the people of Greece
0:02:11 > 0:02:15don't make a clear point in the elections,
0:02:15 > 0:02:19it could cause problems for other economies.
0:02:19 > 0:02:24The eurozone countries are dependent on other economies.
0:02:24 > 0:02:28As a result of this, Welsh meat export is booming.
0:02:28 > 0:02:32Exports in Britain are at their highest ever point.
0:02:32 > 0:02:35But for other industries which have had problems in the past,
0:02:35 > 0:02:38this is not a time to rest on their laurels.
0:02:38 > 0:02:44Looking to the Far East and the Middle East, Canada,
0:02:44 > 0:02:48we have been very successful exporting to those countries.
0:02:48 > 0:02:53It also means that we are less dependent on eurozone countries
0:02:53 > 0:02:57and that will become more and more important as time goes on.
0:02:57 > 0:03:02But what about those not in the traditional businesses?
0:03:02 > 0:03:05But what about new industries?
0:03:05 > 0:03:09Starting up a business is always going to be a risk.
0:03:09 > 0:03:13With the current economic climate in Europe,
0:03:13 > 0:03:18we are not going to aim for European markets without being competitive.
0:03:18 > 0:03:24With the UK in another period of recession
0:03:24 > 0:03:28how do people in places like Carmarthen feel about the future?
0:03:28 > 0:03:32I happen to be a farmer. It has a massive impact on us.
0:03:32 > 0:03:38The strength of the pound and the euro
0:03:38 > 0:03:41has a massive effect on what we get for our produce.
0:03:41 > 0:03:46Everything has gone up in price apart from our wages.
0:03:46 > 0:03:49I think instead of the austerity measures,
0:03:49 > 0:03:54we need to put more money into the economy.
0:03:54 > 0:03:59We have two problems, people are earning less money
0:03:59 > 0:04:03and so they are spending less.
0:04:03 > 0:04:07They are starting to pay back their debt rather than take out loans.
0:04:07 > 0:04:11So that makes it difficult for companies to plan for the future
0:04:11 > 0:04:15and it is harder to take on staff and to expand
0:04:15 > 0:04:17which makes the problem even worse.
0:04:17 > 0:04:24These decisions over the future of the euro won't be made lightly.
0:04:24 > 0:04:30These congregants are hoping their country could be resurrected.
0:04:33 > 0:04:38That report from the Greek Orthodox Church in Cardiff Bay.
0:04:38 > 0:04:43Guto Bebb, you have been cynical about the euro from the start.
0:04:43 > 0:04:46But nobody could have predicted this. Is that right?
0:04:49 > 0:04:52- Do you hear me, Guto Bebb?- No.
0:04:52 > 0:04:56I'll ask the question again, as a euro doubter,
0:04:56 > 0:04:58You are not happy with what's happening?
0:04:58 > 0:05:01No, not at all.
0:05:01 > 0:05:07What's frustrating is that we had foreseen this.
0:05:07 > 0:05:11Many people in Britain and beyond thought that they knew better
0:05:11 > 0:05:13than us eurosceptics.
0:05:13 > 0:05:17But the truth is, if the eurozone continues as it is,
0:05:17 > 0:05:21it's very difficult to see where economic growth
0:05:21 > 0:05:25is going to come from.
0:05:25 > 0:05:28If the situation remains the same in Europe
0:05:28 > 0:05:33interest rates are going to rise and become less competitive
0:05:33 > 0:05:39because banks are holding on to their funds.
0:05:39 > 0:05:42It is a very dangerous situation,
0:05:42 > 0:05:47but the sad thing is that some people did foresee this.
0:05:47 > 0:05:53It's sad that the European Union is going to be split by this.
0:05:54 > 0:05:56Do you think we will have to split,
0:05:56 > 0:05:59Do you think Greece and some other countries
0:05:59 > 0:06:03will have to leave the euro?
0:06:03 > 0:06:09Greece isn't really the biggest question.
0:06:09 > 0:06:12Greece is the same size in Europe as Bath is in the UK.
0:06:12 > 0:06:15Greece is not the problem by now.
0:06:15 > 0:06:19But if Greece leaves the euro, the question is
0:06:19 > 0:06:24whether or not Italy, Spain and Portugal can remain.
0:06:24 > 0:06:27It has a knock-on effect.
0:06:27 > 0:06:31And the debts of those countries make the Greek debts
0:06:31 > 0:06:32look like child's play.
0:06:32 > 0:06:37We have to ensure that the future of Greece within the eurozone
0:06:37 > 0:06:38is secure.
0:06:38 > 0:06:42The effect of seeing Greece leave the euro would mean that
0:06:42 > 0:06:47Spain, Italy and Portugal would fall like dominoes.
0:06:47 > 0:06:52Martin Rhisiart, the leaders are currently meeting in Brussels.
0:06:52 > 0:06:57This is being portrayed as a choice between Angela Merkel's
0:06:57 > 0:07:02austerity measures and Francois Hollande's spending for growth,
0:07:02 > 0:07:04but don't we need both?
0:07:04 > 0:07:07We do need both.
0:07:07 > 0:07:13They do have different points of view and Germany has more to lose
0:07:13 > 0:07:16by going towards eurobonds for example,
0:07:16 > 0:07:19which would spread out these debts.
0:07:19 > 0:07:23It is not a choice between one or the other because we need both.
0:07:23 > 0:07:27But we need some positive and creative options
0:07:27 > 0:07:29to make sure that there is economic growth.
0:07:29 > 0:07:36All of these options basically deal with moving wealth
0:07:36 > 0:07:40from the north to the south.
0:07:40 > 0:07:44Especially the wealth from Germany
0:07:44 > 0:07:47and spread it out among other countries?
0:07:47 > 0:07:51Yes, if all these countries had followed the rules
0:07:51 > 0:07:54we wouldn't be in this situation.
0:07:54 > 0:07:59Britain has been able to use quantitative easing.
0:07:59 > 0:08:04We have dealt with some of these debts in those ways.
0:08:04 > 0:08:06In the eurozone, that isn't possible.
0:08:06 > 0:08:09We have to move wealth from the north to the south
0:08:09 > 0:08:14and that is where political difficulties arise
0:08:14 > 0:08:19because Greece are being forced to accept these financial packages
0:08:19 > 0:08:24or face dire consequences.
0:08:24 > 0:08:28Ieuan Wyn Jones, if you were there tonight,
0:08:28 > 0:08:33would you be encouraging Angela Merkel
0:08:33 > 0:08:36to open those purse strings and spend?
0:08:36 > 0:08:40It is possible to spend because there isn't the money.
0:08:40 > 0:08:44But maybe we need to take a more soft approach to Angela Merkel.
0:08:44 > 0:08:49If this is going to work, we need to keep Greece within the euro.
0:08:49 > 0:08:54But if countries within the euro start to vote against it,
0:08:54 > 0:09:00we will see the political pressure increase on Greece
0:09:00 > 0:09:04to leave the euro.
0:09:04 > 0:09:09Guto Bebb and I haven't agreed over this euro question,
0:09:09 > 0:09:13but I would agree with him over the fact that it was a mistake
0:09:13 > 0:09:16for Greece to join the euro in the first place.
0:09:16 > 0:09:21It wasn't for economic reasons but for political reasons.
0:09:21 > 0:09:28I don't think they or many other countries were prepared to join.
0:09:28 > 0:09:32Would you and other politicians across Europe
0:09:32 > 0:09:37let this ideology trump common sense?
0:09:37 > 0:09:40There were people as Guto Bebb said,
0:09:40 > 0:09:45saying at the time that these countries weren't ready.
0:09:45 > 0:09:50Everything is going to turn into a complete mess.
0:09:50 > 0:09:52I agree with the statement
0:09:52 > 0:09:55that some countries joined when they weren't ready.
0:09:55 > 0:10:01I was surprised when Greece and Spain joined when they did.
0:10:01 > 0:10:05Some argued that Italy shouldn't have joined at the start.
0:10:05 > 0:10:10The project was too important to be influenced by political pressures
0:10:10 > 0:10:14and I think Germany then was eager to see this happen
0:10:14 > 0:10:17for reasons beyond economics and finance.
0:10:17 > 0:10:19Let's bring this back home.
0:10:19 > 0:10:24Guto Bebb, looking at France, they haven't had much growth
0:10:24 > 0:10:27but no recession and they are in the euro.
0:10:27 > 0:10:29There is growth in Germany and they are in the euro.
0:10:29 > 0:10:33But Britain isn't in the euro
0:10:33 > 0:10:35and yet we are in a double-dip recession,
0:10:35 > 0:10:38so it's a recession created in Downing Street.
0:10:38 > 0:10:39Labour were right?
0:10:39 > 0:10:44No. I think the reason we are in the trouble we are in
0:10:44 > 0:10:50is because there was reckless spending during New Labour.
0:10:50 > 0:10:54Half of Europe's credit card bill is in Britain.
0:10:54 > 0:10:58A third of all European mortgages is in Britain.
0:10:58 > 0:11:03The situation here is, the public has such a high level of debt
0:11:03 > 0:11:09it cannot sustain the economy in a growth situation.
0:11:09 > 0:11:11We see that we the economy is exporting more
0:11:11 > 0:11:15and we are creating more private sector jobs.
0:11:15 > 0:11:18So where is the plan for growth?
0:11:18 > 0:11:24Christine Lagarde said we needed to perhaps consider Plan B?
0:11:24 > 0:11:27She didn't say that it was definitely time for that yet,
0:11:27 > 0:11:30but she was doubtful about the success of the current plan.
0:11:30 > 0:11:34I would say that our decisions have saved
0:11:34 > 0:11:36Britain from a catastrophic situation.
0:11:36 > 0:11:41We have lost our ability to pay our way in the world.
0:11:41 > 0:11:45I find this plan for growth ridiculous.
0:11:45 > 0:11:48Are you really suggesting that this Westminster Government
0:11:48 > 0:11:51doesn't have a plan for growth? That is a silly suggestion.
0:11:51 > 0:11:54We are trying to take control of the debt
0:11:54 > 0:11:57and invest in the country
0:11:57 > 0:12:01and public spending isn't falling at a dramatic rate.
0:12:01 > 0:12:04It is being treated sustainably
0:12:04 > 0:12:07so that Britain can borrow money at rates that countries such as
0:12:07 > 0:12:11Italy, France and Spain can only dream of.
0:12:11 > 0:12:14In Europe, Germany is the only country borrowing
0:12:14 > 0:12:16at better rates than Britain.
0:12:16 > 0:12:19That is as a result of the current plan.
0:12:19 > 0:12:26Ken Clarke said that only a fool would say they wouldn't want growth.
0:12:26 > 0:12:30The problem is how to achieve growth in view of what is
0:12:30 > 0:12:33going on in the eurozone.
0:12:33 > 0:12:37Yes, Christine Lagarde suggested more quantitative easing.
0:12:37 > 0:12:40There are suggestions that another round of that will
0:12:40 > 0:12:42happen in coming months.
0:12:42 > 0:12:47She suggested we dropped interest rates which is currently at 0.5%
0:12:47 > 0:12:49so it can't go down much more.
0:12:49 > 0:12:52There isn't any certainty the banks would transfer that cut
0:12:52 > 0:12:56to companies anyway.
0:12:56 > 0:13:02And for many people, especially older people who depend on savings,
0:13:02 > 0:13:06that lowers their savings.
0:13:06 > 0:13:12They will have less money to spend to feed back into the economy.
0:13:12 > 0:13:15Yes, it is quite a grim picture at the moment.
0:13:15 > 0:13:19About 40% of our markets in Wales deal with eurozone countries.
0:13:19 > 0:13:23If there is a drop in the euro there will be a run on the banks,
0:13:23 > 0:13:26and it's nu surprise some British banks would go bust.
0:13:26 > 0:13:32Stress tests have been released by the FSA
0:13:32 > 0:13:39and banks would have less money to lend to consumers.
0:13:39 > 0:13:44Ieuan Wyn Jones, as the man who was responsible for the economy
0:13:44 > 0:13:47what should Carwyn Jones do about this?
0:13:47 > 0:13:49Another thing that Christine Lagarde said -
0:13:49 > 0:13:54and what the UK Government hasn't agreed to - is about infrastructure.
0:13:54 > 0:14:00You can stimulate the economy that way.
0:14:00 > 0:14:02- And the Government here isn't doing that?- No.
0:14:02 > 0:14:04Not in the way I would like to see it.
0:14:04 > 0:14:07The Westminster Government isn't doing that either.
0:14:07 > 0:14:09Part of the UK Government's problem is,
0:14:09 > 0:14:11when they published this plan,
0:14:11 > 0:14:15they predicted a growth of 2% and it is at less than 1%.
0:14:15 > 0:14:17What about the government here?
0:14:17 > 0:14:22The macroeconomic issues are in the hands of Westminster.
0:14:22 > 0:14:27The Assembly Government has a peripheral impact on this.
0:14:27 > 0:14:32The Westminster Government hasn't got a Plan B.
0:14:32 > 0:14:35Their plan has failed because growth is at half the rate
0:14:35 > 0:14:38than they expected and people will as a result lose their jobs.
0:14:38 > 0:14:43The Welsh Secretary has launched a consultation which looks at how
0:14:43 > 0:14:45Assembly Members should be elected in future.
0:14:45 > 0:14:51At its roots are plans to reduce the number of Welsh MPs to 30.
0:14:51 > 0:14:55If the plans see the light of day, Cheryl Gillan recommends the Assembly
0:14:55 > 0:15:01election system should be changed to ensure across-the-board fairness.
0:15:01 > 0:15:04Elliw Gwawr has been looking into this.
0:15:11 > 0:15:15In 2004, the Richards Commission suggested increasing
0:15:15 > 0:15:18the number of Assembly Members to 80.
0:15:18 > 0:15:20The recent One Wales Convention
0:15:20 > 0:15:23said the current number is sufficient.
0:15:23 > 0:15:27What will this consultation offer?
0:15:27 > 0:15:30One option is to create 30 new constituencies
0:15:30 > 0:15:32to match the number of Westminster seats,
0:15:32 > 0:15:38with the number of regional seats increasing from 20 to 30.
0:15:38 > 0:15:40Another option is to remain with the 40 constituencies
0:15:40 > 0:15:43and the 20 regions but change the boundaries
0:15:43 > 0:15:45so that they are more equal in size.
0:15:45 > 0:15:51I think the people of Wales should have a say in this.
0:15:51 > 0:15:56We shouldn't feed people the system from Westminster.
0:15:56 > 0:15:58It should be put to the vote.
0:16:01 > 0:16:06The Conservatives in the Assembly say that the current system works
0:16:06 > 0:16:10and they will campaign against any changes.
0:16:10 > 0:16:14But if there are to be changes, Peter Hain has already said that they would
0:16:14 > 0:16:20favour 30 constituencies with two elected through first past the post.
0:16:20 > 0:16:23Cheryl Gillan has rejected this suggestion.
0:16:24 > 0:16:27It looks to me as though a Westminster agenda
0:16:27 > 0:16:28is taking priority here.
0:16:28 > 0:16:32I don't think that there is an appetite or mandate in Wales
0:16:32 > 0:16:34for this kind of change.
0:16:34 > 0:16:38Perhaps this is a matter which excites political anoraks,
0:16:38 > 0:16:41but what about ordinary people?
0:16:45 > 0:16:52Guto Bebb, why should we change the current system?
0:16:52 > 0:16:54A good question.
0:16:54 > 0:16:59I think that there is evidence to suggest a Scottish situation
0:16:59 > 0:17:02can create complexities.
0:17:02 > 0:17:05The Scottish Parliament have different seats,
0:17:05 > 0:17:08different constituencies to the Westminster constituencies.
0:17:08 > 0:17:12I do wonder why the green paper didn't include the status quo
0:17:12 > 0:17:14as an option.
0:17:14 > 0:17:18If it's a paper looking for people's opinions
0:17:18 > 0:17:20I think it should be at least one of the choices.
0:17:20 > 0:17:25I'm not comfortable with the idea of having 40 seats
0:17:25 > 0:17:31being made equal in terms of size because I think one of the problems
0:17:31 > 0:17:35we have in Wales is the feeling in North, Mid and West Wales
0:17:35 > 0:17:38is that the Assembly is quite Cardiff-centric.
0:17:38 > 0:17:44I think that change the boundaries to create 40 equal sized areas
0:17:44 > 0:17:45would be a mistake.
0:17:45 > 0:17:49I sympathize with the argument that the Assembly needs
0:17:49 > 0:17:51to have a say in this.
0:17:51 > 0:17:54You're not happy with Cheryl Gillan?
0:17:54 > 0:17:59The Green Paper has been published to create a reaction.
0:17:59 > 0:18:02I will respond to it in that spirit.
0:18:02 > 0:18:06I feel as though the Liberal Democrats and the Conservatives
0:18:06 > 0:18:10have a mandate to change the boundary changes in Westminster,
0:18:10 > 0:18:15it was in the Conservative manifesto but it didn't mention the Assembly.
0:18:15 > 0:18:19I think forcing a change without Assembly backing
0:18:19 > 0:18:22would really raise some questions over whether or not
0:18:22 > 0:18:26the Assembly should make its own decisions over such matters.
0:18:26 > 0:18:28That's what I'll say.
0:18:28 > 0:18:31So you think they should keep their nose out of it?
0:18:31 > 0:18:34- Sorry?- They shouldn't interfere.
0:18:34 > 0:18:37No, I think it is important to encourage debate,
0:18:37 > 0:18:41but if they want a response, it is important that Conservative members
0:18:41 > 0:18:46and all other party members should have their say.
0:18:46 > 0:18:49I'm sympathetic to the idea of having 30 seats
0:18:49 > 0:18:56and 30 regional seats, but it is not my decision as an MP.
0:18:56 > 0:19:00Carwyn Jones made a similar argument.
0:19:00 > 0:19:03Ieuan Wyn Jones, if Labour were to win 31 seats here,
0:19:03 > 0:19:07which is quite possible, and the changes had been introduced,
0:19:07 > 0:19:10there would be nothing to stop Labour from introducing
0:19:10 > 0:19:14a first past the post system and Labour will be in power forever.
0:19:14 > 0:19:18There are dangers in changing the voting system
0:19:18 > 0:19:22without some kind of referendum beforehand?
0:19:22 > 0:19:24I disagree with that.
0:19:24 > 0:19:28I think it should be for the Assembly to decide.
0:19:28 > 0:19:31- A simple majority? - No, we would need a consensus.
0:19:31 > 0:19:34We would need a consensus in favour of it.
0:19:34 > 0:19:38I don't think for a moment that Labour would in reality
0:19:38 > 0:19:43consider pulling out of proportional representation.
0:19:43 > 0:19:45It has happened here.
0:19:45 > 0:19:47Peter Hain suggested the exact same thing.
0:19:47 > 0:19:49The people of Wales just wouldn't accept
0:19:49 > 0:19:53that as an option in the same way as they didn't accept
0:19:53 > 0:19:56it as an option that the Assembly were to be dismantled.
0:19:56 > 0:19:59It is something we have to tackle.
0:19:59 > 0:20:02Guto is right. This Green Paper is very narrow
0:20:02 > 0:20:05and it doesn't consider every possible option.
0:20:05 > 0:20:07We should look at other options.
0:20:07 > 0:20:11The Richard Commission suggested we look at the STV system.
0:20:11 > 0:20:14That's what my party wants to see happening.
0:20:14 > 0:20:17That has to be part of the discussion.
0:20:17 > 0:20:21It goes back to the '90s when the Richard Commission was set up.
0:20:21 > 0:20:24Do you think people are concerned about this?
0:20:24 > 0:20:27We were talking about the economy and now there is another Green Paper
0:20:27 > 0:20:29on the constitutional matter?
0:20:29 > 0:20:32Is this what people are more likely to be talking about in the pub?
0:20:32 > 0:20:36No. I don't think many will be talking about this.
0:20:36 > 0:20:39I think they're most likely talking about jobs,
0:20:39 > 0:20:42I don't think they'll be talking about the euro either,
0:20:42 > 0:20:47but this is a topic of discussion for the political anoraks.
0:20:47 > 0:20:50It is important to look at who should decide in this matter.
0:20:50 > 0:20:53I would prefer to see something similar
0:20:53 > 0:20:56to what the Richard Commission suggested.
0:20:56 > 0:20:58We need more Members.
0:20:58 > 0:21:02But is there potential for confusion if constituency boundaries
0:21:02 > 0:21:06differ between these elections and the ones in Westminster?
0:21:06 > 0:21:08Not really.
0:21:08 > 0:21:11It works in Scotland. I don't think people like the result,
0:21:11 > 0:21:13that the SNP is in power there.
0:21:13 > 0:21:16It is clear that the people of Scotland can differentiate.
0:21:16 > 0:21:19People are fairly sophisticated
0:21:19 > 0:21:22and they understand what is going on.
0:21:22 > 0:21:26When you have fought certain in constituencies
0:21:26 > 0:21:30I don't think there is any cause for concern.
0:21:30 > 0:21:35Another point in this Green Paper is the idea of this five-year
0:21:35 > 0:21:38Assembly term, the same as Westminster.
0:21:38 > 0:21:41Would you welcome that change?
0:21:41 > 0:21:43I have no strong feelings on this matter.
0:21:43 > 0:21:47I don't think there's much difference between four to five
0:21:47 > 0:21:49or a difference between five to four.
0:21:49 > 0:21:52I don't think that's being discussed in pubs either!
0:21:52 > 0:21:57I think there are other interesting matters in the paper.
0:21:57 > 0:22:01For instance I think it is a sensible suggestion
0:22:01 > 0:22:05for people to stand for a constituency and a region.
0:22:05 > 0:22:08I think Peter Hain's decision in 2006 had been created
0:22:08 > 0:22:12to undermine the opposition parties. That's a step we should welcome.
0:22:12 > 0:22:14It's three years in Australia.
0:22:14 > 0:22:19Lord help us if that should happen here!
0:22:19 > 0:22:22The important thing is not the length of the term,
0:22:22 > 0:22:24but that it doesn't clash.
0:22:24 > 0:22:27You don't want the Assembly and Westminster elections
0:22:27 > 0:22:29on the same day. We have to avoid that.
0:22:29 > 0:22:31We need to discuss this now.
0:22:31 > 0:22:33From a Green Paper to The Western Mail newspaper
0:22:33 > 0:22:36and today saw a backlash over the editorial on the front-page
0:22:36 > 0:22:38of yesterday's paper.
0:22:38 > 0:22:41The article attacked the suggestion by the committee overseeing
0:22:41 > 0:22:44the Language Bill that all Assembly meetings should be
0:22:44 > 0:22:49translated into Welsh at a cost of £400,000 a year?
0:22:49 > 0:22:54What did you think of the paper when you saw this headline?
0:22:54 > 0:22:56I was surprised.
0:22:56 > 0:22:58Whatever The Western Mail is trying to argue
0:22:58 > 0:23:00this is going to be seen as an attack on the language.
0:23:00 > 0:23:04They are trying to argue that it wasn't.
0:23:04 > 0:23:06That is how it is being taken and I think that is unfortunate.
0:23:06 > 0:23:10This paper is seen as an important thing in the promotion
0:23:10 > 0:23:12of the Welsh language.
0:23:12 > 0:23:14- You'll still buy it? - I will still buy it.
0:23:14 > 0:23:18But I know some people are talking about boycotting it.
0:23:18 > 0:23:22This brings up a basic question about supporting the language.
0:23:22 > 0:23:26It is very unfortunate that The Western Mail is being portrayed
0:23:26 > 0:23:29as an anti-Welsh language newspaper now.
0:23:29 > 0:23:32It was interesting from a business point of view.
0:23:32 > 0:23:36This will alienate some of its readership?
0:23:36 > 0:23:40Surely this was a mistake?
0:23:40 > 0:23:42I think it was a tactical error
0:23:42 > 0:23:45because consensus isn't always healthy in politics.
0:23:45 > 0:23:49Somebody has to oppose the accepted status quo,
0:23:49 > 0:23:53but I think it was the style and way in which it was done
0:23:53 > 0:23:54that shocked people.
0:23:54 > 0:23:58To put it on the front page, I think, was a poor tactic
0:23:58 > 0:24:00and I think they will realise
0:24:00 > 0:24:03that from the opposition they have received.
0:24:03 > 0:24:06- Guto Bebb, was it a mistake? - Absolutely.
0:24:06 > 0:24:09People from The Western Mail have been writing to us
0:24:09 > 0:24:14asking us to persuade the Assembly to advertise in the paper.
0:24:14 > 0:24:17It seems that advertising jobs in the paper is all right
0:24:17 > 0:24:20but translating minutes into Welsh isn't.
0:24:20 > 0:24:24I think that speaks volumes about The Western Mail.
0:24:24 > 0:24:25Thank you.
0:24:25 > 0:24:29That is all for tonight. See you at the same time next week.
0:24:29 > 0:24:30Until then, goodbye.