0:00:20 > 0:00:23Good evening and welcome to us here at CF99.
0:00:23 > 0:00:27Tonight, a reduction in the unemployment figures for Wales.
0:00:27 > 0:00:30But the Euro crisis is still weighing heavily.
0:00:30 > 0:00:34And the Assembly Commission tells us that £500,000
0:00:34 > 0:00:38is too high a price to pay for translating all this place's discussions.
0:00:38 > 0:00:42Here to discuss those issues tonight are the AM for Dwyfor Meirionydd,
0:00:42 > 0:00:44Lord Elis-Thomas of Plaid Cymru,
0:00:44 > 0:00:48political commentator and former Conservative minister, Rod Richards,
0:00:48 > 0:00:52and in our Westminster studio we have the Opposition Welsh Secretary
0:00:52 > 0:00:54and MP for Llanelli, Nia Griffith.
0:00:54 > 0:00:56Welcome to you all.
0:00:56 > 0:01:00Three days after the Greek election, the country has a new coalition government.
0:01:00 > 0:01:04Greece's serious financial problems took the attention of the leaders
0:01:04 > 0:01:07of the world's largest economies this week,
0:01:07 > 0:01:12as they gathered in Mexico for the G20 Summit.
0:01:12 > 0:01:15Of course, the economic uncertainty and the Euro crisis
0:01:15 > 0:01:17affects the Welsh economy.
0:01:17 > 0:01:23And although today's unemployment figures show a slight drop in the number out of work here,
0:01:23 > 0:01:26new research shows that the confidence of businesses in Wales
0:01:26 > 0:01:29is lower than in the rest of the UK.
0:01:29 > 0:01:31More from James Williams.
0:01:39 > 0:01:41Empty shops and closed businesses.
0:01:41 > 0:01:45Although this street is the old Pobol y Cwm set,
0:01:45 > 0:01:50there are worries that this sight will become ever commoner in Wales
0:01:50 > 0:01:52as the recession continues.
0:01:52 > 0:01:56Thousands of miles away in Mexico this week,
0:01:56 > 0:02:02the sun was the only thing shining as the world's leaders tried to get to grips with the Euro crisis.
0:02:02 > 0:02:05What's happening over the water affects every country,
0:02:05 > 0:02:08including Wales, where according to the Federation of Small Businesses,
0:02:08 > 0:02:12business confidence is lower than in the rest of the UK.
0:02:12 > 0:02:18And this computer company in Cardiff foresees tough times.
0:02:18 > 0:02:21I think people are careful with their money at the moment.
0:02:21 > 0:02:26We certainly get more people paying for work with cash now, for example,
0:02:26 > 0:02:27rather than credit cards.
0:02:27 > 0:02:30That's a really obvious thing.
0:02:30 > 0:02:32It'll affect every business, I think.
0:02:32 > 0:02:37But as long as you keep your costs under control and look for new opportunities,
0:02:37 > 0:02:40you can ride it out.
0:02:40 > 0:02:42The basis of this lack of confidence
0:02:42 > 0:02:44is the difficulty getting money from the banks.
0:02:44 > 0:02:47This bank's doors have long since closed, of course,
0:02:47 > 0:02:52but the problem is that so many high street banks' doors have also closed to small businesses,
0:02:52 > 0:02:57with some 40% refused credit recently.
0:02:57 > 0:02:59The Chancellor is well aware of this problem,
0:02:59 > 0:03:04and last week he announced a plan to inject £80 billion into the banks
0:03:04 > 0:03:07so they can start lending again.
0:03:07 > 0:03:13When we talk about the billions banks like RBS have lost,
0:03:13 > 0:03:16and the taxpayers' money thrown in to save them,
0:03:16 > 0:03:21this extra money to boost investment is only a small fraction of it.
0:03:21 > 0:03:24So unfortunately, in one way the chance has been lost.
0:03:24 > 0:03:30Without the money, most businesses don't want to take the chance to employ more workers.
0:03:30 > 0:03:34But today's figures show the private sector across the UK
0:03:34 > 0:03:38has grown more than the public sector has shrunk.
0:03:38 > 0:03:42There was good news for Wales, too, with a reduction in the unemployment figures,
0:03:42 > 0:03:47although the percentage of people out of work continues to be high.
0:03:47 > 0:03:50If a market goes,
0:03:50 > 0:03:56and there's nowhere in Britain to sell what it produces,
0:03:56 > 0:04:01of course, everyone knows, it's likely the figures will go up.
0:04:01 > 0:04:04It's interesting to see that Wales is exporting more
0:04:04 > 0:04:09as a region or a part of the UK, than any other part.
0:04:09 > 0:04:11We export more and import less,
0:04:11 > 0:04:16and we also export more to the United States, to North America, than Europe,
0:04:16 > 0:04:21so there's potential in Wales to build on the exporting success
0:04:21 > 0:04:24to strengthen Wales as an economy.
0:04:24 > 0:04:28The Welsh Government insists it is doing everything within its power to support the economy,
0:04:28 > 0:04:33but admits the economic situation remains challenging,
0:04:33 > 0:04:37and that the Eurozone drama contributes to the uncertainty.
0:04:39 > 0:04:41James Williams's report there.
0:04:41 > 0:04:43Nia, can I start with you.
0:04:43 > 0:04:46There are massive problems in Greece and the rest of the Eurozone,
0:04:46 > 0:04:48but there are also problems in this country.
0:04:48 > 0:04:51We hear negative comments all the time about the economy.
0:04:51 > 0:04:55So is there any surprise that businesses don't have much confidence?
0:04:55 > 0:04:57Of course, they don't have any confidence at all
0:04:57 > 0:05:01because this government in London is doing nothing to create confidence.
0:05:01 > 0:05:05So although the government down in Cardiff is doing its very best
0:05:05 > 0:05:07to help companies, what's happening, of course,
0:05:07 > 0:05:13is that the companies are seeing that many people are losing their jobs in the public sector,
0:05:13 > 0:05:20and they're seeing lots of people losing money on things like tax credits, for example,
0:05:20 > 0:05:23and they see so much money going out of the Welsh economy.
0:05:23 > 0:05:29And they see that the only way to help the economy grow is through exporting,
0:05:29 > 0:05:32and that's not possible for every kind of company.
0:05:32 > 0:05:38What worries me is the fact that very many of the jobs being created
0:05:38 > 0:05:41are part time jobs,
0:05:41 > 0:05:46and people want to work for the most hours available to them.
0:05:46 > 0:05:50And this creates problems too, because what happens of course
0:05:50 > 0:05:54is that there's less money for the family and less to spend,
0:05:54 > 0:05:57and this sends the economy ever further down.
0:05:57 > 0:05:59So it is hard for every business.
0:05:59 > 0:06:00So what's the answer?
0:06:00 > 0:06:03We've seen George Osborne saying there'll be more money for the banks,
0:06:03 > 0:06:09and that he wants them then to give more money to smaller businesses.
0:06:09 > 0:06:11Will that help?
0:06:11 > 0:06:16Well, of course it's very important that banks are willing to lend money to companies,
0:06:16 > 0:06:18this is a big problem for them.
0:06:18 > 0:06:23And the Welsh Government has tried to give money to some companies
0:06:23 > 0:06:28which want to expand their factories, for example,
0:06:28 > 0:06:30and create more jobs.
0:06:30 > 0:06:36But the fact remains that no-one's got any money to spend,
0:06:36 > 0:06:41and this is a very serious problem for companies,
0:06:41 > 0:06:43because they can't sell anything.
0:06:43 > 0:06:46And this is very important.
0:06:46 > 0:06:52So what the Chancellor should do is give money to the people who use it every day,
0:06:52 > 0:06:59not by cutting tax for the rich, but by giving money to normal people,
0:06:59 > 0:07:04to families, who want to spend it straight away in the community.
0:07:04 > 0:07:09Rod Richards, it seems to me that the coalition came in and said they had a plan,
0:07:09 > 0:07:10this was what they were going to do.
0:07:10 > 0:07:15By now it seems to me that the waters are so tempestuous
0:07:15 > 0:07:19that all anyone can do is react from day to day to what happens.
0:07:19 > 0:07:21That's what the EU and the UK are doing,
0:07:21 > 0:07:25and that's what the Welsh Government is doing.
0:07:25 > 0:07:29It's as if no-one sees a clear path out of the situation.
0:07:29 > 0:07:33One reason why there's no clear path out is, of course,
0:07:33 > 0:07:38that things since the coalition came together two years ago...
0:07:38 > 0:07:41Lots of big things have happened since then.
0:07:41 > 0:07:45It is a stormy sea.
0:07:45 > 0:07:49But in terms of strategy, the IMF, for example,
0:07:49 > 0:07:53agrees that the coalition's policy is the right one,
0:07:53 > 0:07:55and it now foresees that next year,
0:07:55 > 0:08:00growth in the UK will be greater than Germany and France,
0:08:00 > 0:08:04and twice that of the Eurozone.
0:08:04 > 0:08:06And from that standpoint...
0:08:06 > 0:08:10But we've seen some very misleading predictions about growth recently, haven't we?
0:08:10 > 0:08:16Certainly, certainly, but the people who count in this world,
0:08:16 > 0:08:23there's not one serious economist arguing with the original policy of the Government.
0:08:23 > 0:08:26Well, to be fair, Paul Krugman, a Nobel prize winner,
0:08:26 > 0:08:28has said the UK Government has gone astray.
0:08:28 > 0:08:31Well, people who win Nobel prizes aren't always serious people.
0:08:31 > 0:08:35Dafydd, we've heard what George Osborne wants to do in Westminster.
0:08:35 > 0:08:37What can the Welsh Government do?
0:08:37 > 0:08:40It doesn't have much of an armoury
0:08:40 > 0:08:44to encourage growth and businesses here in Wales.
0:08:44 > 0:08:48No, it doesn't in the sense that there's no way
0:08:48 > 0:08:53to create a situation where the Welsh Government can lend money,
0:08:53 > 0:08:55but two things can be done,
0:08:55 > 0:09:01which are maintaining and developing the basis of society and the economy,
0:09:01 > 0:09:06ands then investing in training and research, and on education.
0:09:06 > 0:09:08And that's the priority that has been.
0:09:08 > 0:09:11I think it is important that the Welsh Government looks at the moment
0:09:11 > 0:09:16at how to organise young people's qualifications,
0:09:16 > 0:09:18because the big problem we have,
0:09:18 > 0:09:20yes, there's been a drop in unemployment,
0:09:20 > 0:09:25but the level of 24% and more amongst young people
0:09:25 > 0:09:28is something I think is very worrying.
0:09:28 > 0:09:33- But what...- Is there a danger of a lost generation, as we saw in the Eighties?
0:09:33 > 0:09:36No, I wouldn't say that, but I think there's a risk
0:09:36 > 0:09:39of failing to give people the chance to contribute,
0:09:39 > 0:09:42and losing intelligent resources.
0:09:42 > 0:09:45What worries me, from the beginning in this business,
0:09:45 > 0:09:48is that we've had great unintelligence from the banks
0:09:48 > 0:09:53in their ability to find out which sectors of the economy
0:09:53 > 0:09:56there would still be a way to invest in.
0:09:56 > 0:09:59For example, in my experience in the west and the north,
0:09:59 > 0:10:03banks told me they weren't investing in the tourist industry.
0:10:03 > 0:10:09Well, what else do you have in huge parts of the Welsh borders if you don't invest?
0:10:09 > 0:10:16And there has been an increase in a different pattern of holiday in those areas.
0:10:16 > 0:10:20The other thing that hasn't happened is investment in the green economy,
0:10:20 > 0:10:22and I think it's very striking that we're here now,
0:10:22 > 0:10:26we have the situation of the conference in Mexico,
0:10:26 > 0:10:28we've got the Rio+20 Conference,
0:10:28 > 0:10:34and changes will come in energy, in ensuring fuel and fuel security,
0:10:34 > 0:10:39and there should be investment in the low-carbon economy,
0:10:39 > 0:10:42because we have to do that for the future of creation.
0:10:42 > 0:10:46We're talking now about what Wales can do,
0:10:46 > 0:10:50and the truth of it is that there's not much we can change
0:10:50 > 0:10:53compared to what's happening in Europe and Westminster.
0:10:53 > 0:10:56But there are one or two things, for example,
0:10:56 > 0:10:59our image since devolution has been unfortunate
0:10:59 > 0:11:02from the point of view of attracting investment in.
0:11:02 > 0:11:05Even when we had a Labour government in Westminster,
0:11:05 > 0:11:11Rhodri Morgan was talking about "the red sea between us and Westminster."
0:11:11 > 0:11:13- Since Cameron came in... - It's now a blue sea.
0:11:13 > 0:11:18- Since Cameron came in... - An orange sea. - THEY LAUGH
0:11:18 > 0:11:22..this government has been behaving like an opposition,
0:11:22 > 0:11:25rather than an experienced, mature government,
0:11:25 > 0:11:27which is trying to co-operate with Westminster.
0:11:27 > 0:11:31Let me raise that point with Nia,
0:11:31 > 0:11:36because we've seen some criticism today from the UK Government,
0:11:36 > 0:11:40saying that ministers in Wales are different to Scottish and Northern Irish ones,
0:11:40 > 0:11:45and they don't co-operate on UK trade missions to foreign countries.
0:11:45 > 0:11:49That's foolishness, isn't it, to fail to take advantage of those?
0:11:49 > 0:11:54Well, there's a lot of co-operation,
0:11:54 > 0:11:59if you look at what's happening with agriculture, for instance,
0:11:59 > 0:12:02and the minister from Wales comes up to London,
0:12:02 > 0:12:07and goes to Europe and so on, so perhaps there's one example,
0:12:07 > 0:12:10and maybe we should know more and discuss what's happening.
0:12:10 > 0:12:15But the thing is, the Welsh Government organises its own trips to markets,
0:12:15 > 0:12:18Carwyn goes on them regularly.
0:12:18 > 0:12:22But why not go on the UK ones as well?
0:12:22 > 0:12:27Well, the important thing is to know why.
0:12:27 > 0:12:32If there are clear, whether there are problems,
0:12:32 > 0:12:36or what's happened in the past, and what can be done in future.
0:12:36 > 0:12:40We're in the business - it seems all the time the Welsh Government
0:12:40 > 0:12:44doesn't want to co-operate within the United Kingdom,
0:12:44 > 0:12:47and that, for people who don't know us too well,
0:12:47 > 0:12:50at once says a no-no to this place.
0:12:50 > 0:12:53And the other matter, which is also serious in terms of our image,
0:12:53 > 0:12:57is that the impression being made outside Wales
0:12:57 > 0:13:02is that the unions run our schools, and the unions run our hospitals.
0:13:02 > 0:13:06That is, that the unions in Wales are strong, as they were in the Seventies,
0:13:06 > 0:13:07which isn't true in England.
0:13:07 > 0:13:10But, Dafydd, it is very hard here in Wales.
0:13:10 > 0:13:12The public sector has the largest percentage of jobs,
0:13:12 > 0:13:15and we then expect the private sector to step in
0:13:15 > 0:13:18and fill those jobs being lost in the public sector,
0:13:18 > 0:13:21but that's not happening, is it?
0:13:21 > 0:13:22It's happening to some extent,
0:13:22 > 0:13:26but that's what I was trying to talk about earlier,
0:13:26 > 0:13:28which is that there are sectors in the economy.
0:13:28 > 0:13:33For example, there has obviously been important investment
0:13:33 > 0:13:36in maintaining the steel and manufacturing industries,
0:13:36 > 0:13:38manufacturing work in Wales.
0:13:38 > 0:13:42There is still continuing employment in the motoring sector.
0:13:42 > 0:13:45It's obviously important for us to invest in infrastructures,
0:13:45 > 0:13:48and that especially means transport and electrification,
0:13:48 > 0:13:51and if I may say without starting a debate once again in my own party,
0:13:51 > 0:13:56we need to invest in energy, and all kinds of low-carbon energy.
0:13:56 > 0:13:59Because that is certainly something we must do for the future,
0:13:59 > 0:14:05because of the global commitments the UK and EU have made.
0:14:05 > 0:14:09- So I think it would be a mistake... - Would you want to run that policy yourself in Wales?
0:14:09 > 0:14:11In co-operation with the Labour Party?
0:14:11 > 0:14:14Well, no-one runs a policy alone.
0:14:14 > 0:14:17You have to co-operate with government on all sorts of levels,
0:14:17 > 0:14:19especially in the EU.
0:14:19 > 0:14:21Right, there we are, we have to leave it there.
0:14:21 > 0:14:24According to the Assembly Commission, spending £500,000
0:14:24 > 0:14:28on translating all this place's discussions into Welsh is ill-advised.
0:14:28 > 0:14:30As the Official Languages Bill reaches halfway,
0:14:30 > 0:14:36it looks likely that the priority is provision of a bilingual report only for full meetings.
0:14:36 > 0:14:39And it seems the parties, if not all members, agree.
0:14:40 > 0:14:43The value of translating Assembly meetings
0:14:43 > 0:14:46has become an old argument over the last few years.
0:14:47 > 0:14:51Well, about a month ago, there was an angry response
0:14:51 > 0:14:54by language campaigners and politicians to the front page of the Western Mail,
0:14:54 > 0:14:56after they opened an old wound by raising questions
0:14:56 > 0:15:01over the value of translating all Assembly committee meeting minutes
0:15:01 > 0:15:03from English to Welsh.
0:15:03 > 0:15:06And that followed a recommendation from one of the Assembly's committees,
0:15:06 > 0:15:10which focuses on the Assembly's Official Languages Bill.
0:15:10 > 0:15:13According to the paper, in a period of cuts,
0:15:13 > 0:15:15this is a luxury we cannot afford.
0:15:15 > 0:15:17But despite the committee's recommendation,
0:15:17 > 0:15:21none of the parties have presented an amendment to the bill
0:15:21 > 0:15:24calling on the Assembly to publish everything bilingually.
0:15:24 > 0:15:28The cost would be between £400,000 and £600,000,
0:15:28 > 0:15:31so it seems around half a million pounds for doing that work,
0:15:31 > 0:15:32and I think in that context,
0:15:32 > 0:15:35people have asked the question of whether that's a wise investment,
0:15:35 > 0:15:37whether it makes the Welsh language equal,
0:15:37 > 0:15:40whether it promotes the use of the Welsh language.
0:15:40 > 0:15:45And the conclusion I've come to, and I think many of my fellow members have come to,
0:15:45 > 0:15:49is that it does nothing to promote use of the Welsh language in this place.
0:15:49 > 0:15:52But some AMs are still unhappy.
0:15:52 > 0:15:56The two are part of the definition of "Assembly Proceedings,"
0:15:56 > 0:15:59under the Government of Wales Act.
0:15:59 > 0:16:03So I'd like to know how a commission can say
0:16:03 > 0:16:09that the record of the full meeting is different from a committee meeting.
0:16:09 > 0:16:11Treating languages equally
0:16:11 > 0:16:16doesn't necessarily mean we do exactly the same in each language.
0:16:16 > 0:16:19The important thing, for my part, is that there's a way for AMs
0:16:19 > 0:16:22and the public in dealing with the Assembly
0:16:22 > 0:16:25to be able to use the one language or the other according to their choice, completley naturally.
0:16:25 > 0:16:31The Commission says the priority is to re-establish a competely bilingual of the full session,
0:16:31 > 0:16:35and to encourage more members to use the Welsh langguage in the Assembly,
0:16:35 > 0:16:40but does this set a good enough example to other establishments in Wales?
0:16:40 > 0:16:42We feel the Assembly has had a poor record recently
0:16:42 > 0:16:44and that needs to be addressed.
0:16:44 > 0:16:48but also that the Assembly, as a body that legislates for us,
0:16:48 > 0:16:50should show leadership to all establishments in Wales.
0:16:50 > 0:16:54The committee will consider the improvements to the bill tomorrow,
0:16:54 > 0:16:57but with the parties opposing the committee's original recommendations,
0:16:57 > 0:17:00there's unlikely to be a significant change
0:17:00 > 0:17:03in the system of translating committees in the near future.
0:17:05 > 0:17:09Dafydd Elis-Thomas, as a former presiding officer,
0:17:09 > 0:17:11this debate is quite simple really.
0:17:11 > 0:17:15It's a debate between people who believe it's a matter of principle
0:17:15 > 0:17:18and people who believe it's a matter of priority.
0:17:18 > 0:17:22I don't understand that argument because what I was trying to do
0:17:22 > 0:17:25when I was responsible for the first draft of that bill
0:17:25 > 0:17:29was to ensure that Welsh and English were defined as official languages,
0:17:29 > 0:17:34and then leave the details about how it would work from day to day to a language scheme,
0:17:34 > 0:17:38but that some of the principles of the scheme would be in the bill.
0:17:38 > 0:17:39And that's what's going to happen now.
0:17:39 > 0:17:42The debate is about what should be put in the bill.
0:17:42 > 0:17:47But my position is simple. It hasn't changed since I was on the Welsh Language Board over 20 years ago.
0:17:47 > 0:17:51The aim of translating is to enable people to speak Welsh in meetings
0:17:51 > 0:17:54and to enable other people to understand.
0:17:54 > 0:17:56It's as simple as that.
0:17:56 > 0:17:58This idea of wasting money
0:17:58 > 0:18:02on printing large volumes in both languages...
0:18:02 > 0:18:05We're not talking about the Bible. There's no great literature here.
0:18:05 > 0:18:09We're not talking about the speeches of Thomas Edward Ellis here!
0:18:09 > 0:18:14But the other argument is that this is a place which legislates
0:18:14 > 0:18:19and expects other private companies and public bodies
0:18:19 > 0:18:23to use the language and what happens here sets a precedent.
0:18:23 > 0:18:27I'm the chairman of the Environment Committee and all I want...
0:18:27 > 0:18:32I speak Welsh in every committee and that's my choice.
0:18:32 > 0:18:36I don't understand why everyone else who can doesn't do the same.
0:18:36 > 0:18:38It costs less if the person speaks Welsh.
0:18:38 > 0:18:40You've saved money already
0:18:40 > 0:18:44and you don't have to translate backwards and forwards.
0:18:44 > 0:18:47But the important point about this is I want to make sure
0:18:47 > 0:18:48I have the words to use them properly
0:18:48 > 0:18:53and that the questions are clear and that everything is understood.
0:18:53 > 0:18:55You don't need more than that, in my opinion.
0:18:55 > 0:18:57We're creating an artificial situation,
0:18:57 > 0:19:01pretending that people speak Welsh, when they don't.
0:19:01 > 0:19:06I want to ensure that we spend enough money to use digital technology,
0:19:06 > 0:19:12so that we can search for what's happened during the discussions electronically.
0:19:12 > 0:19:19In a digital situation, you don't need to reproduce all this print in two languages.
0:19:19 > 0:19:23I've argued that for years, but haven't got anywhere.
0:19:23 > 0:19:25Rod, a waste of money,
0:19:25 > 0:19:28or is it something that's crucial for the language?
0:19:28 > 0:19:31It came as a shock to me when I read about it in the newspaper
0:19:31 > 0:19:34because I thought the policy had already been established
0:19:34 > 0:19:37and the money had been set aside for the policy.
0:19:37 > 0:19:42So the fact they were discussing money now seemed strange to me.
0:19:42 > 0:19:46But they were discussing new money and that, of course, is different
0:19:46 > 0:19:51because money is scarce and cuts are being made everywhere.
0:19:51 > 0:19:57So all four parties should have had some common sense, and said,
0:19:57 > 0:20:03"If we vote in favour of spending this money, what we're doing
0:20:03 > 0:20:09"is saying that the Welsh language, and this unnecessary translating,
0:20:09 > 0:20:16"is more important than everything else that happens in the Assembly."
0:20:16 > 0:20:19That would have been the message coming out of this place.
0:20:19 > 0:20:20And that was the message
0:20:20 > 0:20:24because there was a fierce response to it and understandably so.
0:20:24 > 0:20:28This debate about cost could be used about anything.
0:20:28 > 0:20:32It was used with regard to bilingual road signs
0:20:32 > 0:20:36and about a Welsh language television channel.
0:20:36 > 0:20:39There is a line somewhere, isn't there, where you say,
0:20:39 > 0:20:43"Whatever the cost, some things are worth doing."
0:20:43 > 0:20:46So you have to define what those things are.
0:20:46 > 0:20:51The fact is, what we're losing is the point of doing it.
0:20:51 > 0:20:55What's important to me is to decide on priorities
0:20:55 > 0:20:57and then discuss who uses what
0:20:57 > 0:21:03and how to encourage people to use the Welsh language more often.
0:21:03 > 0:21:07It's easier for example...
0:21:07 > 0:21:11It's more important to me to give people the confidence
0:21:11 > 0:21:16to use the language verbally in committees, if they want to use it,
0:21:16 > 0:21:21and to give people the opportunity to write a letter
0:21:21 > 0:21:24to Assembly Members through the medium of Welsh
0:21:24 > 0:21:27and to receive a response in the Welsh language.
0:21:27 > 0:21:30It's very important because people use something.
0:21:30 > 0:21:37The question here is about whether people read what's written in Welsh?
0:21:37 > 0:21:41For me, as someone who's learned the language,
0:21:41 > 0:21:46it's important that we have examples of good Welsh
0:21:46 > 0:21:50and have the opportunity to read it and use the language
0:21:50 > 0:21:55that's relevant to issues which are often very difficult.
0:21:55 > 0:21:59But the fact is, if we have enough of that,
0:21:59 > 0:22:03by what's going on in the full chamber for example,
0:22:03 > 0:22:08maybe we don't need all the records from every committee.
0:22:08 > 0:22:13What the Assembly has to decide, and it's up to the Assembly,
0:22:13 > 0:22:18but it has to evaluate what use is being made
0:22:18 > 0:22:21of everything it is translating.
0:22:21 > 0:22:25But in the world we live in now,
0:22:25 > 0:22:31the current Assembly Government has cut back its spending on health.
0:22:31 > 0:22:35So you can't justify spending more money
0:22:35 > 0:22:39than was already earmarked on Welsh translation.
0:22:39 > 0:22:43The people outside who don't speak Welsh aren't going to accept it
0:22:43 > 0:22:46and there was a fierce response.
0:22:46 > 0:22:50But that argument would have been raised in the 1960s about road signs.
0:22:50 > 0:22:54No. The people who were campaigning for road signs
0:22:54 > 0:22:58were campaigning for a policy. You were one of them.
0:22:58 > 0:23:01You were campaigning for a policy, weren't you, not money?
0:23:01 > 0:23:06Once a policy is decided, the money is earmarked to go with it.
0:23:06 > 0:23:08But how do you then encourage small businesses
0:23:08 > 0:23:11to have Welsh signs in their shops
0:23:11 > 0:23:15when the Assembly isn't willing to spend the money itself?
0:23:15 > 0:23:19Yes, but the situation has changed
0:23:19 > 0:23:22with regard to the amount of money that's available.
0:23:22 > 0:23:23There's less money available.
0:23:23 > 0:23:29The Labour Government here in Wales has cut back its spending on health,
0:23:29 > 0:23:30so it's very serious.
0:23:30 > 0:23:35You can't then justify spending any new money
0:23:35 > 0:23:39on something like translating into Welsh.
0:23:39 > 0:23:41I would go further than that.
0:23:41 > 0:23:44Yes, but you have to evaluate and if policies are working...
0:23:44 > 0:23:46We have to leave there.
0:23:46 > 0:23:50I'm sorry, but the time has beaten us. That's all for tonight.
0:23:50 > 0:23:53We'll be back at the same time next Wednesday night.
0:23:53 > 0:23:58- I hope you can join us then. - Good night.