0:00:19 > 0:00:22Good evening and welcome to 30 minutes of discussion.
0:00:22 > 0:00:25Tonight, more for less than the health service,
0:00:25 > 0:00:29as the amount of money is cut, is it fair to ask surgeries
0:00:29 > 0:00:34to lengthen their hours and hospitals offer services in Welsh?
0:00:34 > 0:00:38We will speak to a new think-tank.
0:00:38 > 0:00:41But is there enough creative thinking in our politics?
0:00:41 > 0:00:45The three guest tonight are Plaid Cymru Assembly Member
0:00:45 > 0:00:48Alun Ffred Jones,
0:00:48 > 0:00:52Dr Tomos Dafydd from Aberystwyth University
0:00:52 > 0:00:57and Reverend Aled Edwards, the chief executive of Cytun.
0:00:57 > 0:01:03It is more than 60 years since Aneurin Bevan launched the NHS.
0:01:03 > 0:01:07His hope was that health care for everybody would lead
0:01:07 > 0:01:10to less demand for services as the population's health improved,
0:01:10 > 0:01:14but the pressure has increased as funding has decreased.
0:01:14 > 0:01:18Demand for improved services and more answerable services
0:01:18 > 0:01:22have also increased.
0:01:22 > 0:01:26On July 5th, the new National Health Service starts.
0:01:26 > 0:01:28Have you chosen your family doctor?
0:01:28 > 0:01:32Free health care for everyone from the cradle to the grave,
0:01:32 > 0:01:37that was the vision of the National Health Service.
0:01:37 > 0:01:40It celebrates its 64th anniversary tomorrow.
0:01:40 > 0:01:43Happy birthday to the health service,
0:01:43 > 0:01:48but things have changed since it was created.
0:01:48 > 0:01:51Around 80,000 people are currently employed in the health service,
0:01:51 > 0:01:54it's the biggest employer in Wales.
0:01:54 > 0:01:58It claims some 40% of the Welsh Government's budget,
0:01:58 > 0:02:00more than £6 billion a year.
0:02:00 > 0:02:03But the money will be cut in the future.
0:02:03 > 0:02:09There are proposed plans to centralise services
0:02:09 > 0:02:15and this has led to concerns that some hospitals will be downgraded.
0:02:15 > 0:02:18The Health Minister has denied this although she says
0:02:18 > 0:02:22that the present system is unacceptable.
0:02:22 > 0:02:23Many people agree.
0:02:23 > 0:02:28The way to move forward will be to depend less on hospitals
0:02:28 > 0:02:33and carry out more work closer to where the patients live
0:02:33 > 0:02:38with the help of GPs or more in the community.
0:02:38 > 0:02:42But how can more be offered for patients with less money
0:02:42 > 0:02:45such as services in the Welsh language?
0:02:45 > 0:02:48This is what the conference in Cardiff discussed.
0:02:50 > 0:02:54The response by the BMA to the Government of Wales' consultation
0:02:54 > 0:03:00is that the language shouldn't be a priority in a time of recession.
0:03:00 > 0:03:05The Government believes that the most important thing
0:03:05 > 0:03:07is health care and treatment.
0:03:07 > 0:03:11This strategy isn't going against the points we have made.
0:03:11 > 0:03:17People need to be able to access services in Welsh.
0:03:17 > 0:03:22It should not just be a choice.
0:03:22 > 0:03:24This is a priority.
0:03:24 > 0:03:29There was another warning from the body representing doctors.
0:03:29 > 0:03:33There has been talk of surgeries open later at night
0:03:33 > 0:03:35and on the weekends.
0:03:35 > 0:03:41Our workload is heavier in Wales than in England.
0:03:41 > 0:03:45The percentage of people over 75 in Wales is higher
0:03:45 > 0:03:48than in other places.
0:03:48 > 0:03:53We are already finding it hard to recruit GPs in Wales.
0:03:53 > 0:03:59It would be terrible to try and change the contract just for Wales.
0:03:59 > 0:04:03Perhaps doctors would think of going elsewhere.
0:04:03 > 0:04:10But in the end, it's views like these that is important.
0:04:10 > 0:04:15The doctors and nurses are not to blame,
0:04:15 > 0:04:17they are stretched as they are.
0:04:17 > 0:04:24We have to do our best to keep our health.
0:04:24 > 0:04:29When I had my child in hospital, they were doing their best,
0:04:29 > 0:04:33but you could see that they were working so hard,
0:04:33 > 0:04:36they really need more staff.
0:04:36 > 0:04:43I had a home birth and I used the midwife in the community,
0:04:43 > 0:04:47I could not have asked for better.
0:04:47 > 0:04:52So there is plenty to celebrate and plenty to think about.
0:04:54 > 0:04:59Is it fair to say that perhaps the health service
0:04:59 > 0:05:03is the biggest problem for the Welsh Government?
0:05:03 > 0:05:08I would argue that we need a strong economy
0:05:08 > 0:05:12and that influences people's health.
0:05:12 > 0:05:16If people did not work, then it will affect their health.
0:05:16 > 0:05:19It is a huge challenge.
0:05:19 > 0:05:22But in view of the budget, it is a massive challenge.
0:05:22 > 0:05:25There are many things in that report
0:05:25 > 0:05:29and one thing mentioned treatment closer to the people,
0:05:29 > 0:05:36but before this can be done, the health boards have to explain
0:05:36 > 0:05:39how the treatment can be carried out.
0:05:39 > 0:05:42The GP contract was a big mistake.
0:05:42 > 0:05:45They had more money for doing less work.
0:05:45 > 0:05:50We need to integrate GP services with the NHS.
0:05:50 > 0:05:52You talked about explaining to the public,
0:05:52 > 0:05:56and that is a problem.
0:05:56 > 0:05:59Any change in the service will worry people.
0:05:59 > 0:06:04It is understandable.
0:06:04 > 0:06:08Politicians are not very good at explaining what is happening.
0:06:08 > 0:06:14It is very difficult for people to get a hold of the issue
0:06:14 > 0:06:17even those who are managers within it.
0:06:17 > 0:06:21Explaining any differences will be one of the biggest
0:06:21 > 0:06:28challenges for the health service in the next few years.
0:06:29 > 0:06:35Tomos Dafydd, things are tight, but our demands are growing.
0:06:35 > 0:06:38We want to see a doctor at our convenience.
0:06:38 > 0:06:44We want a bilingual service. But something has to give.
0:06:44 > 0:06:47The maths don't really add up here, do they?
0:06:47 > 0:06:51It is not a case of throwing money at the problem.
0:06:51 > 0:06:56The present economic climate means that the Budget
0:06:56 > 0:07:00will be tightened in the coming years.
0:07:00 > 0:07:02But throwing money isn't the right answer.
0:07:02 > 0:07:06We have already seen greater investment in the past decade,
0:07:06 > 0:07:12but people in Wales are waiting longer for treatment in Wales
0:07:12 > 0:07:14than in England.
0:07:14 > 0:07:17Is Andrew Lansley doing a better job?
0:07:17 > 0:07:21I believe there is scope to follow England's lead.
0:07:21 > 0:07:25We needed to devolve more power to our doctors
0:07:25 > 0:07:32and give more independence to those who understand the health service.
0:07:32 > 0:07:35We should not centralise so much.
0:07:35 > 0:07:38Why is there a civil war by doctors in England, then?
0:07:38 > 0:07:41I'm sorry?
0:07:41 > 0:07:46There is a lot of opposition to any change to the status quo.
0:07:46 > 0:07:50We have seen this when Tony Blair introduced foundation hospitals.
0:07:50 > 0:07:58But the truth is the BMA on these changes and on the Welsh language,
0:07:58 > 0:08:02they are going against the public.
0:08:02 > 0:08:07Changes take place to the health service every five years.
0:08:07 > 0:08:09There is no lont-term vision.
0:08:09 > 0:08:13It causes chaos and put more pressure on those involved.
0:08:13 > 0:08:19If changes are made, then they must be sensible ones.
0:08:19 > 0:08:23They must be long-term plans.
0:08:23 > 0:08:28The doctors were against the establishment of the BMA
0:08:28 > 0:08:32in the first place, what needs to be done?
0:08:32 > 0:08:37Should we listen to the doctors or should we just ignore them?
0:08:37 > 0:08:40You have to consider professional people.
0:08:40 > 0:08:45You cannot run the health service like a business.
0:08:45 > 0:08:50But you could use business techniques, couldn't you?
0:08:50 > 0:08:54You come to a point, but let us be honest about this,
0:08:54 > 0:08:58you have a situation where a former bank manager
0:08:58 > 0:09:02can walk away with £30m is laughable.
0:09:02 > 0:09:06This idea that we have a lack of money for the NHS is laughable.
0:09:06 > 0:09:12Why are we putting so little resources into our NHS?
0:09:12 > 0:09:15It is not the situation here, it is global.
0:09:15 > 0:09:20Our richest business people are keeping money in offshore accounts
0:09:20 > 0:09:27and that is not helping the situation.
0:09:27 > 0:09:32But what about GP contracts? Patricia Hewitt introduced them.
0:09:32 > 0:09:36Everyone thinks that it was a mistake.
0:09:36 > 0:09:41GPs and used to work long hours and they could work overnight,
0:09:41 > 0:09:46but perhaps they will be called upon to work more hours now.
0:09:46 > 0:09:51We have to give them a lot of resources to the health service.
0:09:51 > 0:09:55I sometimes believe that if we gave them more resources
0:09:55 > 0:09:59then there wouldn't be any pressure on our doctors and nurses.
0:09:59 > 0:10:06I think that our expectations of our doctors and nurses are too high.
0:10:06 > 0:10:09They all say how busy they are.
0:10:09 > 0:10:14We have to talk about the politics of our resources.
0:10:14 > 0:10:17I'm not saying that we should privatise the NHS
0:10:17 > 0:10:23but I see there is a scope to make more of the private sector.
0:10:23 > 0:10:27If we can use the private sector to increase the capacity
0:10:27 > 0:10:30of the arts and further education.
0:10:30 > 0:10:34It we can use the private sector to increase the capacity
0:10:34 > 0:10:38that will release the health service to look after the most needy.
0:10:38 > 0:10:44This week I saw service in Neath Port Talbot Hospital being cut.
0:10:44 > 0:10:49This is something that the Government said wouldn't happen.
0:10:49 > 0:10:54The PFI hospital costs more than £66 million to build.
0:10:54 > 0:10:58By the time it would have been finished,
0:10:58 > 0:11:01the local health board would have paid £220m for it.
0:11:01 > 0:11:03Does is this going against the principle of business
0:11:03 > 0:11:09or is it suggesting that those in charge weren't good at contracts?
0:11:09 > 0:11:14It is good that we stopped developments like that
0:11:14 > 0:11:20but the challenge is massive because of the pressure.
0:11:20 > 0:11:26What about the importance of the Welsh language in the service?
0:11:26 > 0:11:29Is it affordable?
0:11:29 > 0:11:34I do not think economy is what is important.
0:11:34 > 0:11:38Numbers and budgets have nothing to do with the Welsh language.
0:11:38 > 0:11:41A Welsh-language service is a right.
0:11:41 > 0:11:45I am thinking of those under five for example
0:11:45 > 0:11:47who can't speak English.
0:11:47 > 0:11:53A lot of people would agree, but it does come down to money.
0:11:53 > 0:11:58It does not cost more to employ someone who can speak Welsh
0:11:58 > 0:12:01as it does to employ someone who speaks English.
0:12:01 > 0:12:04They can offer the same service.
0:12:04 > 0:12:09- So, only employ those who speak Welsh?- It is just being pragmatic.
0:12:09 > 0:12:14A five-year-old boy may not be able to speak English
0:12:14 > 0:12:20or you may have a patient suffering from dementia,
0:12:20 > 0:12:25a Welsh-speaking professional may be needed in a circumstance like that.
0:12:25 > 0:12:29This is all to do with training. This needs long-term planning.
0:12:29 > 0:12:35You cannot do it overnight. Young people have to be trained medically.
0:12:35 > 0:12:39People may need to learn the language.
0:12:39 > 0:12:41I have family experience,
0:12:41 > 0:12:47when someone is ill, they will appreciate having someone
0:12:47 > 0:12:51who can speak to them in their first language.
0:12:51 > 0:12:55The BMA's opinion belongs in the stone age.
0:12:55 > 0:12:57It's a foolish thing to say.
0:12:57 > 0:13:02An individual's identity and dignity is linked to the language.
0:13:02 > 0:13:07It doesn't conform to our understanding of equality
0:13:07 > 0:13:09in society either.
0:13:09 > 0:13:12You'd never say that somebody's culture or heritage
0:13:12 > 0:13:13is not important.
0:13:13 > 0:13:16It's a very foolish thing to say and they should withdraw it.
0:13:16 > 0:13:18Thank you.
0:13:18 > 0:13:22They pay taxes, they can join the Army and they can marry,
0:13:22 > 0:13:25so why can't young people aged 16 vote?
0:13:25 > 0:13:29Well, although they don't have the power to change the law,
0:13:29 > 0:13:32there were calls from members of all parties here today
0:13:32 > 0:13:35to lower the voting age in the Welsh elections.
0:13:35 > 0:13:37But would young people welcome that?
0:13:37 > 0:13:40These are the views of pupils from Ysgol Bro Myrddin.
0:13:41 > 0:13:45You start paying tax at 16 and...
0:13:46 > 0:13:51..well, the Assembly gets the money so if we pay,
0:13:51 > 0:13:55it's a good idea that we have a say on what they do with the money.
0:13:55 > 0:14:00When we're 16 and 17, we start having lessons on politics at school
0:14:00 > 0:14:04and we get a lot of information on politics
0:14:04 > 0:14:07so I think 14 is a bit young,
0:14:07 > 0:14:11especially if they don't understand how the system works,
0:14:11 > 0:14:13but I think 16 is the right age.
0:14:13 > 0:14:16I think 16 should be the voting age
0:14:16 > 0:14:20because, if they get the vote, the government will feel
0:14:20 > 0:14:24it needs to do more to win the votes of young people.
0:14:24 > 0:14:27I have a voice, why can't I use it?
0:14:27 > 0:14:30Young people have plenty of problems
0:14:30 > 0:14:33and they have opinions,
0:14:33 > 0:14:36so why can't we have a voice?
0:14:36 > 0:14:42Tomos Dafydd, they're old enough to be parents, to join the Army,
0:14:42 > 0:14:44but they're not old enough to vote.
0:14:44 > 0:14:50- Why?- I'm not keen on the idea of lowering the voting age to 16.
0:14:50 > 0:14:56I acknowledge that children of that age have far-reaching rights
0:14:56 > 0:15:00but if we're serious about lowering the voting age to 16,
0:15:00 > 0:15:06we would surely have to lower the legal age of being an adult
0:15:06 > 0:15:11from 18 to 16, and that would raise all kinds of question
0:15:11 > 0:15:17in relation to young people's rights in a court of law and so on.
0:15:17 > 0:15:20I'm not keen on changing the system.
0:15:20 > 0:15:2418 is the international norm, not only in the European Union,
0:15:24 > 0:15:29through the members of the EU, but in America and Australia as well.
0:15:29 > 0:15:31It's an empty step...
0:15:31 > 0:15:35But apathy is a problem and to encourage young people to vote,
0:15:35 > 0:15:38isn't this the way to involve them in politics?
0:15:38 > 0:15:40I don't accept that argument.
0:15:40 > 0:15:45They lowered the voting age to 16 on the Isle of Man a few years ago
0:15:45 > 0:15:51and only one in four took advantage of that opportunity to vote
0:15:51 > 0:15:55compared to over 60% of the wider electorate.
0:15:55 > 0:16:00There must be better ways of cultivating interest.
0:16:00 > 0:16:05For example, adopting a primary system, which is used in America.
0:16:05 > 0:16:08- Aled?- Break the monopoly of the political leaders
0:16:08 > 0:16:12and give the public a chance to choose parliamentary candidates.
0:16:12 > 0:16:15Aled, 18? 16? 14 as Alun Michael has suggested?
0:16:15 > 0:16:21I wouldn't go as far as 14 but there are arguments in favour of 16.
0:16:21 > 0:16:26But why? We know that what we used to call school-leaving age
0:16:26 > 0:16:29is going to rise over the next few years to 18,
0:16:29 > 0:16:32but school-leaving age isn't the voting age.
0:16:32 > 0:16:36You'd give the vote to anyone who agrees with your views,
0:16:36 > 0:16:39but, the truth is, you have to use reasoning,
0:16:39 > 0:16:42and that's not very precise.
0:16:42 > 0:16:48Where young people can get married and form life-long relationships,
0:16:48 > 0:16:52where then can also be guardians, I think young people...
0:16:52 > 0:16:57But they can't drink or drive. There are things they can't do.
0:16:57 > 0:17:00You have to look at the reasoning
0:17:00 > 0:17:05and there are more responsibilities placed on young people these days
0:17:05 > 0:17:08and I think they should have more right to make decisions.
0:17:08 > 0:17:13If the process was to change, the whole system would have to change.
0:17:13 > 0:17:16These young people wouldn't go to the polling stations,
0:17:16 > 0:17:19they would vote over Twitter, don't you think, Alun Ffred?
0:17:19 > 0:17:24As long as it's safe from being abused, I'm not opposed to that.
0:17:24 > 0:17:29But I do think there are questions, if you can vote when you're 16,
0:17:29 > 0:17:31why can't you drink or drive when you are 16?
0:17:31 > 0:17:35You have to look at the reasons.
0:17:35 > 0:17:40The Plaid Cymru policy is that we're in favour of the age being 16.
0:17:40 > 0:17:45I'm a little bit more sceptical about it.
0:17:45 > 0:17:46- Not that I'm opposed...- 18?
0:17:46 > 0:17:51That's what I would say, but my party says differently.
0:17:51 > 0:17:54- Have you told them? - I haven't dared say anything.
0:17:54 > 0:17:58They were very keen on 16 this afternoon and I'm with them.
0:17:58 > 0:18:00I think I even voted with them.
0:18:01 > 0:18:06So is it going to happen, Tomos? Is it inevitable?
0:18:06 > 0:18:09- Will it happen sooner or later? - I don't think so.
0:18:09 > 0:18:13There isn't a consensus on this issue, as far as I can see.
0:18:13 > 0:18:19I sense the status quo will remain in the long term.
0:18:19 > 0:18:23The established international norm is that the voting age should be 18
0:18:23 > 0:18:28and I don't see a scientific argument in favour of changing that.
0:18:28 > 0:18:31Right, we'll leave that there.
0:18:31 > 0:18:34Education, the economy, houses, bilingualism -
0:18:34 > 0:18:39some of the subjects Gorwel, a new think tank, will discuss
0:18:39 > 0:18:41over the next few months.
0:18:41 > 0:18:44The Conservative and deputy presiding officer, David Melding,
0:18:44 > 0:18:50established it, and its aim is to encourage creative cross-party debate
0:18:50 > 0:18:53on policy issues in Wales.
0:18:53 > 0:18:57Aled Edwards, is there enough broad thinking,
0:18:57 > 0:19:00what they call blue sky thinking, happening in Wales?
0:19:00 > 0:19:03No. There's room to improve.
0:19:03 > 0:19:06I asked a prominent politician when I started working with the Assembly,
0:19:06 > 0:19:09what makes a good politician?
0:19:09 > 0:19:10The answer I got,
0:19:10 > 0:19:14when you think you've had a good idea, you know it's not.
0:19:14 > 0:19:16I think that's pretty accurate.
0:19:16 > 0:19:20You have to know what effect your decisions will have
0:19:20 > 0:19:23on a variety of people.
0:19:23 > 0:19:28I welcome this. Anything that encourages discussion and debate,
0:19:28 > 0:19:32and encourages new ideas in the Welsh context is to be welcomed.
0:19:32 > 0:19:34That is a problem, Alun Ffred,
0:19:34 > 0:19:38We have the Institute of Welsh Affairs,
0:19:38 > 0:19:40which tends to feed every party.
0:19:40 > 0:19:45Maybe those parties need individual think tanks.
0:19:45 > 0:19:47Well, I agree.
0:19:47 > 0:19:53And to break up the consensus on the left, which tends to develop,
0:19:53 > 0:19:57because that's where Plaid is, generally, that's where Labour is,
0:19:57 > 0:19:59that's where the Welsh Lib Dems are as well, I'd say,
0:19:59 > 0:20:04so having a think tank which is to the rights,
0:20:04 > 0:20:09although David Melding's not to the right, of course, is a good idea.
0:20:09 > 0:20:12And what Wales needs is an open discussion
0:20:12 > 0:20:16on issues like our status, on devolution,
0:20:16 > 0:20:21rather than the party political arguments
0:20:21 > 0:20:23that run along these lines.
0:20:23 > 0:20:27Tomos, Gorwel has parked, I think that's the term,
0:20:27 > 0:20:30the constitutional question by saying,
0:20:30 > 0:20:33"We want to welcome people who believe in independence
0:20:33 > 0:20:35"but are right wing."
0:20:35 > 0:20:40Is it possible? Doesn't almost every subject raise questions
0:20:40 > 0:20:43in relation to the role of this place
0:20:43 > 0:20:45compared to other governing bodies?
0:20:45 > 0:20:48There will be tensions on the constitutional question
0:20:48 > 0:20:51between those who are involved in Gorwel,
0:20:51 > 0:20:55but I'd say the priority is to reform public services,
0:20:55 > 0:21:00develop a sustainable green economy in the long term,
0:21:00 > 0:21:02and to promote a bilingual Wales.
0:21:02 > 0:21:07There must be scope for cross-party co-operation on those issues.
0:21:07 > 0:21:12Alun Ffred, politicians always want us to think that you're very busy...
0:21:12 > 0:21:13I am busy!
0:21:13 > 0:21:18..thinking about the next speech and the next conference.
0:21:18 > 0:21:21Do you have time to think? You've been in government.
0:21:21 > 0:21:25Do you think strategically about the long term?
0:21:25 > 0:21:28One of the main problems of being in government
0:21:28 > 0:21:30is the lack of time to think.
0:21:30 > 0:21:33I'm amazed that we have Ministers in Wales
0:21:33 > 0:21:36who have been on the front bench for 12 years.
0:21:36 > 0:21:40I'm surprised they have time to visit the toilet.
0:21:40 > 0:21:44Having institutions like this is a good thing
0:21:44 > 0:21:47- but I'd like to know who's paying for it.- That's always a clue...
0:21:47 > 0:21:49Who is paying, Tomos?
0:21:49 > 0:21:54That's beyond my pay grade. I'm not going to reveal anything.
0:21:54 > 0:21:58But it's encouraging to see so many people across the political spectrum
0:21:58 > 0:22:00taking part in this.
0:22:00 > 0:22:04There are nationalists - Cynog Dafis was at the launch,
0:22:04 > 0:22:05there were Tories
0:22:05 > 0:22:08and many people who haven't been involved in formal politics.
0:22:08 > 0:22:10That's very encouraging.
0:22:10 > 0:22:14The launch was very positive, on the whole.
0:22:14 > 0:22:18Ieuan Wyn Jones said he intends to establish a think tank too.
0:22:18 > 0:22:21Have you heard anything about that?
0:22:21 > 0:22:25Recently? The party think about establishing one every three years.
0:22:25 > 0:22:27We haven't managed it yet.
0:22:27 > 0:22:29I don't think the party should do it
0:22:29 > 0:22:33but someone's who's at arm's length from the party.
0:22:33 > 0:22:35The Labour Party has one
0:22:35 > 0:22:39How important is it that it isn't too party orientated?
0:22:39 > 0:22:40It's vital.
0:22:40 > 0:22:44We want to be able to decide what sort of people we want to be.
0:22:44 > 0:22:47In the modern Wales, that has to be complex
0:22:47 > 0:22:50and we need the ability to be more than one thing
0:22:50 > 0:22:52and to see outside the conventional patterns.
0:22:52 > 0:22:56To be more, if you like, than we used to be as a culture.
0:22:56 > 0:23:00But the IWA has been extremely successful and influential
0:23:00 > 0:23:06and has brought people who aren't political in to debate all kinds...
0:23:06 > 0:23:09But there is a danger that there's only one of those.
0:23:09 > 0:23:12Definitely. In a small country, that's always a danger.
0:23:12 > 0:23:17That's why I welcome any body that has an independent voice.
0:23:17 > 0:23:19There are at least five in Scotland.
0:23:19 > 0:23:23Is this another sign of the process maturing in Wales?
0:23:23 > 0:23:25I think it's very beneficial.
0:23:25 > 0:23:28The saddest aspect of our politics
0:23:28 > 0:23:31has been the political and creative monopoly of the left
0:23:31 > 0:23:33over the last few decades.
0:23:33 > 0:23:37Any development which encourages pluralism in our democracy
0:23:37 > 0:23:41and challenges the status quo and the cosy system in Cardiff Bay,
0:23:41 > 0:23:43is a positive development.
0:23:43 > 0:23:47But, as Alun Ffred suggested, when we talk about the right wing here,
0:23:47 > 0:23:50we're talking about the right wing in terms of Wales.
0:23:50 > 0:23:53It's nothing like the right wing
0:23:53 > 0:23:57that exists in the TaxPayers' Allience and so on.
0:23:57 > 0:24:00We're talking about the right of centre here.
0:24:00 > 0:24:04There's room for those in the middle ground to take part in this.
0:24:04 > 0:24:07It was very encouraging to see a broad cross-section of people.
0:24:07 > 0:24:12Andrew RT Davies should have a think tank. That would be out on the right.
0:24:12 > 0:24:16But as a former member of the All-Wales Convention,
0:24:16 > 0:24:20what's vitally important so that we confirm our legislative powers
0:24:20 > 0:24:25is that we define the principles which form our laws,
0:24:25 > 0:24:28rather than them being administrative items.
0:24:28 > 0:24:32And thinking it out in a principled way is very important
0:24:32 > 0:24:35as we develop our legislative tradition.
0:24:35 > 0:24:39It won't happen until we have financial responsibility.
0:24:39 > 0:24:41That's when the true politics will start.
0:24:41 > 0:24:44And as a member of Gorwel, Tomos, where will you do your thinking?
0:24:44 > 0:24:48There's a welcome for people from all parties
0:24:48 > 0:24:51and those who are not formally involved in politics to take part.
0:24:51 > 0:24:53The man on the horizon!
0:24:53 > 0:24:57That's right. Thank you very much to the three of you.
0:24:57 > 0:25:02That's it for tonight. We'll be back at the same time next Wednesday.
0:25:02 > 0:25:05- Until then, good night.- Good night.