0:00:19 > 0:00:22Hello and welcome to half an hour of politics chat.
0:00:22 > 0:00:26Tonight, the row about the report on health service reforms.
0:00:26 > 0:00:30What does it mean for the credibility of the report and the minister?
0:00:30 > 0:00:33And as dairy farmers protest in Westminster, figures show that
0:00:33 > 0:00:38almost a third have left the industry in Wales in the last five years.
0:00:38 > 0:00:40Here to discuss these matters are Llyr Roberts
0:00:40 > 0:00:44of the Cardiff Business School, Assembly Member and Plaid Cymru's
0:00:44 > 0:00:48health spokesperson, Elin Jones and the Labour councillor Huw Thomas.
0:00:48 > 0:00:50Welcome, all three of you.
0:00:50 > 0:00:53The pressure on the health minister is increasing as the row
0:00:53 > 0:00:56continues over the credibility of a controversial report
0:00:56 > 0:00:59on health service reform in Wales.
0:00:59 > 0:01:03Opposition parties say the report by Professor Marcus Longley can
0:01:03 > 0:01:07no longer be described as independent after emails have emerged,
0:01:07 > 0:01:10linked to government ministers, asking for advice
0:01:10 > 0:01:16and assistance on how to put the report together.
0:01:16 > 0:01:19Professor Longley and the Welsh Government
0:01:19 > 0:01:22insist the report remains independent.
0:01:22 > 0:01:24Elliw Gwawr reports.
0:01:24 > 0:01:27Government changes to the health service are highly controversial.
0:01:27 > 0:01:31People are naturally set against changes to services
0:01:31 > 0:01:34in their area but in recent years, we've seen many protests
0:01:34 > 0:01:39here on the steps of the Senedd against local hospital closures.
0:01:44 > 0:01:46The independent report
0:01:46 > 0:01:49was meant to present impartial clinical evidence.
0:01:49 > 0:01:53It would persuade politicians and the public that they were
0:01:53 > 0:01:55making the right decisions for the right reasons.
0:01:55 > 0:01:59Here's what Professor Marcus Longley had to say on the
0:01:59 > 0:02:04Glamorgan University blog after the report was published in May.
0:02:04 > 0:02:07"In order to introduce evidence to this argument,
0:02:07 > 0:02:11"we were commissioned by the Health Service in Wales to collect
0:02:11 > 0:02:14"and review evidence on the standard of care in our hospitals,
0:02:14 > 0:02:18"the state of the workplace and access to care in our hospitals
0:02:18 > 0:02:21"and then come to a conclusion supported
0:02:21 > 0:02:27"by the evidence on the best model for the hospital model in Wales."
0:02:27 > 0:02:31But the results of the report were controversial.
0:02:31 > 0:02:33"We can be relatively sure that many services
0:02:33 > 0:02:37(particularly in trauma, general emergency care,
0:02:37 > 0:02:40"some aspects of stroke care, specialist operations)
0:02:40 > 0:02:43"are clearly far from being of the highest standard
0:02:43 > 0:02:47"and it would be reasonable to conclude
0:02:47 > 0:02:53"that people suffer from disability and even death as a result of this."
0:02:53 > 0:02:55But the emails between Professor Longley
0:02:55 > 0:02:59and civil servants show that he had asked for key facts
0:02:59 > 0:03:02to support the argument in favour of reform,
0:03:02 > 0:03:04and opposition parties say he has undermined
0:03:04 > 0:03:07the independence of his report.
0:03:07 > 0:03:11It's clear that the government has been holding talks.
0:03:11 > 0:03:14If the health minister knew about this,
0:03:14 > 0:03:16it's clear she'll have to step down
0:03:16 > 0:03:19because this report isn't independent.
0:03:19 > 0:03:22If she didn't know about these communications,
0:03:22 > 0:03:25it's clear that she doesn't know
0:03:25 > 0:03:28what's going on in her own department.
0:03:30 > 0:03:34And in an unusual step, we understand that opposition leaders
0:03:34 > 0:03:37have met to discuss how to deal with this row.
0:03:37 > 0:03:40Kirsty Williams first went downstairs do meet with
0:03:40 > 0:03:44Leanne Wood of Plaid Cymru, before going down the corridor
0:03:44 > 0:03:47to the Conservative leader, Andrew RT Davies.
0:03:47 > 0:03:53This was the minister's response to the claims in the chamber yesterday.
0:03:53 > 0:03:57This is a blatant political attack that seeks to undermine my leadership
0:03:57 > 0:04:01of the NHS in Wales at the expense of the hard-earned reputations
0:04:01 > 0:04:03of two people who have done nothing
0:04:03 > 0:04:07but work hard to improve the NHS in Wales.
0:04:08 > 0:04:11But despite the Government's efforts,
0:04:11 > 0:04:13pressure is mounting on the Health Secretary,
0:04:13 > 0:04:17with the British Medical Association saying that the report is a cynical
0:04:17 > 0:04:22attempt to influence the opinion of health workers and the public.
0:04:22 > 0:04:27Opposition parties are now working together to table
0:04:27 > 0:04:30a vote of no confidence in the minister next week.
0:04:30 > 0:04:33Her position at the moment is untenable.
0:04:33 > 0:04:38That's why the three party leaders have taken this serious step.
0:04:38 > 0:04:41They haven't made the decision lightly.
0:04:41 > 0:04:43They've considered the matter
0:04:43 > 0:04:46and I think it's testament to the severity of the situation.
0:04:46 > 0:04:49But for most people receiving care through the health service,
0:04:49 > 0:04:55it's the impact on services that matters, not the political upheaval.
0:04:57 > 0:05:02Elin Jones, a simple question. Why a vote of no confidence?
0:05:02 > 0:05:06The minister had the opportunity yesterday to defend
0:05:06 > 0:05:11why she thought that she could present the report
0:05:11 > 0:05:14as an independent document when,
0:05:14 > 0:05:19as is evident from the emails that have emerged,
0:05:19 > 0:05:23that the report was not politically independent
0:05:23 > 0:05:26because of the communications
0:05:26 > 0:05:29ab out the content of the report that had gone on between
0:05:29 > 0:05:32her ministers and the report's author and even editorial advice
0:05:32 > 0:05:36for the report's author by the health minister's officials.
0:05:36 > 0:05:39The minister then chose on the 9th of May
0:05:39 > 0:05:42to present the report as an independent one.
0:05:42 > 0:05:46And it's clear to us that wasn't true.
0:05:46 > 0:05:49And her defence yesterday was not sufficient.
0:05:49 > 0:05:50But why a vote of no confidence?
0:05:50 > 0:05:54You're not likely to win and even if you were to win,
0:05:54 > 0:05:56it wouldn't mean anything.
0:05:56 > 0:05:58Why use that particular tool?
0:05:58 > 0:06:00I remember when this place started up.
0:06:00 > 0:06:04I remember this happening time after time to Christine Gwyther.
0:06:04 > 0:06:09It made no difference. So why resurrect this old, pointless tactic?
0:06:09 > 0:06:14We're taking this matter seriously. It is a very important matter.
0:06:14 > 0:06:19It has driven an ordinary Assembly Member like me to support,
0:06:19 > 0:06:24at the moment, a vote of no confidence in the health minister.
0:06:24 > 0:06:27We haven't taken this step lightly.
0:06:27 > 0:06:32The changes on the horizon that are being introduced in hospitals
0:06:32 > 0:06:36across Wales are far-reaching.
0:06:36 > 0:06:39The health minister is spearheading those changes
0:06:39 > 0:06:43so they need to be a credible person to make those decisions.
0:06:43 > 0:06:47At the moment, she has mislead the beginning of that
0:06:47 > 0:06:50discussion by presenting this report as independent
0:06:50 > 0:06:56and that report, or she had hoped that the report
0:06:56 > 0:07:00would be central to legitimising these changes to the health service.
0:07:00 > 0:07:04Huw Thomas, why don't we look at the content of these e-mails.
0:07:04 > 0:07:06It's one thing to ask for facts,
0:07:06 > 0:07:10and many people acknowledge that Marcus Longley had to ask
0:07:10 > 0:07:14the government for information as they store that information.
0:07:14 > 0:07:19But he also asked for assistance on how to introduce that evidence.
0:07:19 > 0:07:21Was that taking it too far?
0:07:23 > 0:07:28I disagree. I think the other parties have overreacted.
0:07:30 > 0:07:35The e-mails ask for advice on a draft of the report.
0:07:35 > 0:07:38But why ask the government for advice?
0:07:38 > 0:07:42- He was asking for their response. - Why?
0:07:42 > 0:07:46Because they're professionals and they're part of the government.
0:07:46 > 0:07:49But the government didn't commission this report.
0:07:49 > 0:07:52Why ask the government's advice on a report
0:07:52 > 0:07:54that was supposed to be independent?
0:07:54 > 0:07:58The report is independent. That's the truth of the matter.
0:07:58 > 0:08:02If you ask people who work in the health service for information,
0:08:02 > 0:08:06it's reasonable to also ask their opinion.
0:08:07 > 0:08:12You suggested then, Llyr, that there had been an overreaction.
0:08:12 > 0:08:16Have all sides overreacted to an extent?
0:08:16 > 0:08:19That is, in conversation with Bethan, Darren Millar said
0:08:19 > 0:08:22all sorts of big things not only about the government
0:08:22 > 0:08:25but also Marcus Longley and then Labour reacted fiercely.
0:08:25 > 0:08:30- Does everybody just need to calm down?- That's how I feel.
0:08:30 > 0:08:34This is such a sensitive topic for the people of Wales.
0:08:34 > 0:08:39People are really concerned about these changes.
0:08:39 > 0:08:42The public is genuinely worried about what's happening
0:08:42 > 0:08:44to their local services.
0:08:44 > 0:08:48I'm worried that this row has spiralled out of control,
0:08:48 > 0:08:51that Darren Millar has overreacted and the government's had to
0:08:51 > 0:08:55respond in kind at the Assembly on Tuesday morning.
0:08:55 > 0:08:59And then I think this motion of no confidence is a step too far
0:08:59 > 0:09:03and is a nuclear weapon that shouldn't be used so early on.
0:09:03 > 0:09:05What about the credibility of the report?
0:09:05 > 0:09:08Not the minister's credibility but that of the report?
0:09:08 > 0:09:10Is it central to these reforms?
0:09:10 > 0:09:12I don't see that there's anything wrong
0:09:12 > 0:09:14with what the civil servants have done here.
0:09:14 > 0:09:17I don't see that they've done anything wrong,
0:09:17 > 0:09:20trying to influence Marcus Longley's report.
0:09:20 > 0:09:22That's their job, to try to get a better spin on this report.
0:09:22 > 0:09:26There are issues in how some people have tried to frame this report
0:09:26 > 0:09:30as independent and also maybe with some of Marcus Longley's e-mails.
0:09:30 > 0:09:33Personally, I wouldn't have written them in such a chummy way.
0:09:33 > 0:09:36I would have been worried that it could bring my academic
0:09:36 > 0:09:39independence into question.
0:09:39 > 0:09:42Elin Jones, when you were minister you weren't privy
0:09:42 > 0:09:45to every communication that came out of your office.
0:09:45 > 0:09:48Do you think Leslie Griffiths should have been
0:09:48 > 0:09:50aware of the contents of all of these emails?
0:09:50 > 0:09:52Was it like that for you as minister?
0:09:52 > 0:09:55No and no I don't expect Leslie Griffiths
0:09:55 > 0:09:59to be aware of the contents of every e-mail her officials write.
0:09:59 > 0:10:01Of course, it is those same officials
0:10:01 > 0:10:05that would have cleared the written confirmation
0:10:05 > 0:10:08that Leslie Griffiths signed on May 9th
0:10:08 > 0:10:13when she presented the report as independent of government.
0:10:13 > 0:10:18Those same officials knew full well that they had discussed
0:10:18 > 0:10:22the contents of that report with the author
0:10:22 > 0:10:28and in that statement on May 9th, the government and the public,
0:10:28 > 0:10:32who are concerned about the future of their hospitals
0:10:32 > 0:10:35and want to know that there's a credible person leading
0:10:35 > 0:10:41the hospital reform programme in Wales, were mislead.
0:10:41 > 0:10:45That is where the blame lies.
0:10:45 > 0:10:49That's why I accept the point that Llyr made that perhaps
0:10:49 > 0:10:54we are rushing into a vote of no confidence
0:10:54 > 0:10:56but as for the next step in this process,
0:10:56 > 0:11:01what I want to see is the health committee on Wednesday morning
0:11:01 > 0:11:05scrutinise the minister again, to give her another opportunity
0:11:05 > 0:11:10to appear before us and I hope tomorrow,
0:11:10 > 0:11:13we can establish that the health minister will be called
0:11:13 > 0:11:17to the health committee on Wednesday morning.
0:11:18 > 0:11:21Could that lead to a withdrawal of the vote of no confidence?
0:11:21 > 0:11:26It's up to the health minister to present her case.
0:11:26 > 0:11:29She will then have another opportunity to persuade
0:11:29 > 0:11:33Assembly Members that she is worthy of the Assembly's trust
0:11:33 > 0:11:37so she'll have two opportunities.
0:11:37 > 0:11:40Huw Thomas, reading between the lines of what Elin has said,
0:11:40 > 0:11:44it appears to me that opposition parties are withdrawing somewhat.
0:11:44 > 0:11:48Isn't it true that such difficult decisions are being
0:11:48 > 0:11:53made in the health service that some kind of consensus is necessary,
0:11:53 > 0:11:57at least in terms of the starting point, what are the facts?
0:11:57 > 0:12:01Then that debate can be held to convince the public
0:12:01 > 0:12:03that these changes are beneficial.
0:12:03 > 0:12:08It's certainly true to say that the health service needs reforming.
0:12:08 > 0:12:11The situation in medicine is changing from day-to-day.
0:12:11 > 0:12:14We need a service that can look after
0:12:14 > 0:12:17the people of Wales in this day and age.
0:12:17 > 0:12:20That's the significance of the report,
0:12:20 > 0:12:22to look at why we need that change.
0:12:22 > 0:12:27The Labour Party is trying to get in with the job in hand
0:12:27 > 0:12:30and that's what we're going to do.
0:12:30 > 0:12:34Elin talks about looking at the matter as a committee.
0:12:34 > 0:12:37OK, we can do that but that will take up time that could be
0:12:37 > 0:12:43spent on getting on with reforming the health service.
0:12:43 > 0:12:46The other parties are welcome to play end-of-term politics
0:12:46 > 0:12:49if that's what they want to do.
0:12:49 > 0:12:51That's the problem we've got.
0:12:51 > 0:12:54As elected representatives we are not playing at politics
0:12:54 > 0:12:56when we discuss the future of the health service.
0:12:56 > 0:12:59In this context I'm the Ceredigion AM
0:12:59 > 0:13:02and I will be discussing the future of Bronglais Hospital,
0:13:02 > 0:13:07where a mental health ward has closed overnight.
0:13:07 > 0:13:08Llyr.
0:13:08 > 0:13:11There are questions to be asked here
0:13:11 > 0:13:14and the right place to do that is the Assembly's investigative
0:13:14 > 0:13:17committee next week and I hope the minister does appear before it
0:13:17 > 0:13:20just to get everything out in the open because that's the correct
0:13:20 > 0:13:24process and I think the vote of no confidence is an inappropriate step.
0:13:24 > 0:13:25Thank you.
0:13:25 > 0:13:28Almost a third of dairy farms have disappeared in the last five
0:13:28 > 0:13:32years, according to government figures.
0:13:32 > 0:13:35Unsustainable pricing is to blame for the difficulties
0:13:35 > 0:13:38in the industry according to farming unions.
0:13:38 > 0:13:42Some of the largest milk processors have recently threatened to
0:13:42 > 0:13:45cut prices one again in August.
0:13:45 > 0:13:49Hundreds of Welsh farmers turned up in Westminster today to press
0:13:49 > 0:13:52the government to take action on behalf of the industry.
0:13:52 > 0:13:54James Williams reports.
0:13:54 > 0:13:58It's milking time on Wyn Davies' farm near Fishguard,
0:13:58 > 0:14:01where the family have been farming for generations.
0:14:01 > 0:14:05Many things have changed in that time,
0:14:05 > 0:14:08including the price of the milk they produce.
0:14:08 > 0:14:13We've got three main milk buyers; Dairy Crest, Wiseman and Arla.
0:14:13 > 0:14:16They are competing for a slice of the market
0:14:16 > 0:14:20and the only way they do that is by cutting the price
0:14:20 > 0:14:23and that's what's caused the situation we're in now.
0:14:24 > 0:14:28There is a future in the industry but I don't know
0:14:28 > 0:14:31whether this generation will see the country turn around.
0:14:31 > 0:14:34When you step back and think that a bottle of water costs more
0:14:34 > 0:14:38than a bottle of milk, something's gone wrong.
0:14:39 > 0:14:41Many in the industry believe the contracts
0:14:41 > 0:14:45between the farmers and processors are at the root of the problem.
0:14:45 > 0:14:47Because of these contracts,
0:14:47 > 0:14:50processors can cut their prices at short notice
0:14:50 > 0:14:55while farmers are tied to these contracts for up to 18 months.
0:14:55 > 0:14:57That is what has happened in this period.
0:14:57 > 0:15:00The processing companies have cut their prices in June
0:15:00 > 0:15:04and intend to do the same again on 1 August.
0:15:04 > 0:15:06As a result, on average,
0:15:06 > 0:15:10farmers would receive less than 25p per litre of milk
0:15:10 > 0:15:13which costs more than 30p a litre to produce.
0:15:13 > 0:15:16The regular practice of lower pricing means
0:15:16 > 0:15:18many farmers have left the industry.
0:15:18 > 0:15:22The number of farms in Wales has fallen
0:15:22 > 0:15:28from just over 2,700 in 2006 to around 1,900 in 2011.
0:15:28 > 0:15:33There are more than 75,000 fewer cows compared with five years ago.
0:15:33 > 0:15:35It makes sense, according to some.
0:15:35 > 0:15:38If you have a farm with 150 dairy cows
0:15:38 > 0:15:41producing 1.5 million litres of milk,
0:15:41 > 0:15:46a cut of 1p per litre amounts to £10,000.
0:15:46 > 0:15:49It is quite a substantial hit.
0:15:49 > 0:15:51Some have had 4p removed from the price of milk.
0:15:51 > 0:15:56If we weren't making money before, we're going to make much less now.
0:15:56 > 0:16:00They are not going to head into this winter to lose money,
0:16:00 > 0:16:04to get up early in the morning and to work hard just to lose money.
0:16:04 > 0:16:06That's not going to happen.
0:16:06 > 0:16:11Today, Wyn Davies joined thousands of farmers from Wales and England
0:16:11 > 0:16:12to voice their concerns
0:16:12 > 0:16:16to the Westminster Agriculture Minister, Jim Paice.
0:16:16 > 0:16:19He said he was close to an agreement
0:16:19 > 0:16:22on a new voluntary code for milk contracts.
0:16:22 > 0:16:24That is what the Welsh Government wants to see.
0:16:24 > 0:16:29I haven't given up hope that there will be a practical code
0:16:29 > 0:16:32for processors and farmers which will work.
0:16:32 > 0:16:35That is something my officials here in Wales are working on
0:16:35 > 0:16:38with DEFRA officials at the moment.
0:16:38 > 0:16:41We've had conversations about it.
0:16:41 > 0:16:45I'm confident we can reach an agreement on this at some point.
0:16:45 > 0:16:49If not, we'll have to legislate. We don't want to do that.
0:16:49 > 0:16:53But we can't let down the dairy farmers.
0:16:53 > 0:16:58Back in 2000, there were fierce protests about the price of milk.
0:16:58 > 0:17:02Once again, there is a threat by farmers to pour their milk away
0:17:02 > 0:17:06and to even disrupt the Olympic Games if there isn't any change.
0:17:06 > 0:17:12But tomorrow morning, Wyn Davies will be milking his cows as usual.
0:17:12 > 0:17:18He hopes changes are afoot to make the effort worthwhile once more.
0:17:19 > 0:17:23Llyr Roberts, you've carried out research on fair trade.
0:17:23 > 0:17:26It's something we usually think of as being on the other side of the world.
0:17:26 > 0:17:31Is there a problem here? Are the farmers getting a fair deal here?
0:17:31 > 0:17:35No, there's a systemic problem in the market.
0:17:35 > 0:17:40You have four milk processors who have too much power over the market.
0:17:40 > 0:17:44It seems to me the way they've all cut their prices at the same time
0:17:44 > 0:17:49will lead someone to believe the farmers are disadvantaged.
0:17:49 > 0:17:52What's going to happen if we cut the amount the farmers get,
0:17:52 > 0:17:57the smaller producers will not be able to survive.
0:17:57 > 0:18:01We're then going to have these huge, unhealthy, unsustainable farms
0:18:01 > 0:18:05and we'll lose the community and social value our small farms.
0:18:05 > 0:18:08But it is a strange contract system.
0:18:08 > 0:18:12The buyer can continually change the price.
0:18:12 > 0:18:17But the seller is tied to that contract.
0:18:17 > 0:18:21As you said, it has parallels with the fair trade industry.
0:18:21 > 0:18:24The point is that we're trying to change the balance
0:18:24 > 0:18:28and give more power to the producer
0:18:28 > 0:18:31and get a fairer deal between the producer and the buyer.
0:18:31 > 0:18:35So some of the aspects we see in Fair Trade, for example,
0:18:35 > 0:18:39setting a bottom rate to the prices and setting a premium,
0:18:39 > 0:18:42could we have something like that?
0:18:42 > 0:18:47We can already see aspects of that with some of the supermarkets
0:18:47 > 0:18:51offering a premium to the farmers who supply them directly.
0:18:51 > 0:18:53I believe we need elements like that.
0:18:53 > 0:18:56I hope the supermarkets ombudsman and others
0:18:56 > 0:18:58will help to realise that.
0:18:58 > 0:19:01Elin Jones, as a former Agriculture Minister,
0:19:01 > 0:19:03the supermarket is always the spectre.
0:19:03 > 0:19:07That is the image we have. But some buy directly.
0:19:07 > 0:19:09Some are better than others.
0:19:09 > 0:19:12So there is some good practice there, is there?
0:19:12 > 0:19:14Yes, there is good practice.
0:19:14 > 0:19:19The supermarkets will emphasise the good practice that they do
0:19:19 > 0:19:21but those are direct contracts
0:19:21 > 0:19:24with a relatively small percentage of the dairy sector.
0:19:24 > 0:19:30Most dairy farmers sell their milk to the sector as a whole,
0:19:30 > 0:19:33to the bulk market.
0:19:33 > 0:19:37Those farmers are in a weak position within the market.
0:19:37 > 0:19:41They are weaker than any other farmers
0:19:41 > 0:19:45because their produce cannot be kept on the farm for a fortnight
0:19:45 > 0:19:47and then be offered to another buyer.
0:19:47 > 0:19:50The produce perishes within a day or two.
0:19:50 > 0:19:56So they are restricted to their buyer.
0:19:56 > 0:19:58- The buyer has the power. - What's the answer?
0:19:58 > 0:20:01That's why you need the Government
0:20:01 > 0:20:05to intervene in this particular market.
0:20:05 > 0:20:08The Deputy Minister there talked about contracts
0:20:08 > 0:20:14and a possible best practice code, which would be voluntary.
0:20:14 > 0:20:17I'm not confident that a voluntary one would work.
0:20:17 > 0:20:22We may have to move towards a statutory code in the long term.
0:20:22 > 0:20:26We're talking here about a process which has gone on for decades.
0:20:26 > 0:20:30Farms have been getting bigger and more efficient.
0:20:30 > 0:20:32That is what the market does
0:20:32 > 0:20:35and Mrs Jones is glad to get her milk at a cheap price.
0:20:35 > 0:20:38I believe things have got out of hand
0:20:38 > 0:20:41since the Milk Marketing Board was abolished in 1994.
0:20:41 > 0:20:46After that, farmers lost their power to make deals collectively.
0:20:46 > 0:20:49That is one thing we'd like to encourage to return
0:20:49 > 0:20:52so that farmers can make deals collectively.
0:20:52 > 0:20:54Alun Davies has said,
0:20:54 > 0:20:57if we can have a strong voluntary code which works,
0:20:57 > 0:21:02and one which the supermarkets and the processors follow,
0:21:02 > 0:21:04then that would be great.
0:21:04 > 0:21:08If not then we must be ready to legislate.
0:21:08 > 0:21:13Alun Davies has said if the Westminster Government fails,
0:21:13 > 0:21:15the Assembly will be ready to do so.
0:21:15 > 0:21:17Are you expecting Westminster to fail?
0:21:17 > 0:21:21I'm always expecting a Tory Government to fail!
0:21:21 > 0:21:24Elin Jones, when I was a Parliamentary correspondent,
0:21:24 > 0:21:27Bob Parry from the FUW was on the doorstep at Downing Street
0:21:27 > 0:21:31protesting about something every day, as were the NFU, of course.
0:21:31 > 0:21:34There are fewer rural protests in London at the moment.
0:21:34 > 0:21:36Is devolution the reason for this?
0:21:36 > 0:21:39There are fewer protests by farmers in general
0:21:39 > 0:21:42over the last five years, I would say.
0:21:42 > 0:21:45Market prices have been better,
0:21:45 > 0:21:51which gives the farmer more confidence in the farm's future.
0:21:51 > 0:21:54So it is quite a substantial step that farmers have taken today
0:21:54 > 0:21:59to resurrect the protest, as it where,
0:21:59 > 0:22:03and there is real concern within the dairy sector.
0:22:03 > 0:22:06That sector is facing high prices
0:22:06 > 0:22:10because of the imports to the dairy sector.
0:22:10 > 0:22:14That pressure and the margins are very tight.
0:22:14 > 0:22:17Will farmers begin throwing away milk?
0:22:17 > 0:22:21If you reach the point where it costs more to produce it
0:22:21 > 0:22:23then it is unsustainable.
0:22:23 > 0:22:26It is an unfair market.
0:22:26 > 0:22:30It is a problem which is particular to this market.
0:22:30 > 0:22:33We're talking about a particular problem which is happening now.
0:22:33 > 0:22:37But people would say that, in truth, we need to take a step back,
0:22:37 > 0:22:38that food in general is too cheap.
0:22:38 > 0:22:41We're facing climate change
0:22:41 > 0:22:44and there are problems with food safety and we should be
0:22:44 > 0:22:50looking at the entire food industry in a different way than we do now.
0:22:50 > 0:22:52I would tend to agree with that.
0:22:52 > 0:22:59An interesting point was made earlier about bringing fair trade
0:22:59 > 0:23:03into our food production here in Britain.
0:23:03 > 0:23:07I believe, if we look at agriculture production in Britain,
0:23:07 > 0:23:10it has grown and grown and grown.
0:23:10 > 0:23:14But we must realise that this comes at a price.
0:23:14 > 0:23:18Supermarkets will be putting pressure on the producers.
0:23:18 > 0:23:22That is what is completely unfair, the different prices
0:23:22 > 0:23:25the producers sell it at and what we pay in the shops.
0:23:25 > 0:23:27But when things are tight,
0:23:27 > 0:23:29we all want the cheapest milk price possible.
0:23:29 > 0:23:33Can we change the mindset of the shopper?
0:23:33 > 0:23:35It was said in the film that a bottle of water
0:23:35 > 0:23:37is more expensive than a bottle of milk,
0:23:37 > 0:23:41while the cost of manufacturing a bottle of water is going to be less
0:23:41 > 0:23:46than what it costs the farmer to produce a bottle of milk.
0:23:46 > 0:23:50A cultural change is needed.
0:23:50 > 0:23:53The free market cannot work properly in the context
0:23:53 > 0:23:58of providing the required supply of food in our country.
0:23:58 > 0:24:01That is why we must look at the food sector,
0:24:01 > 0:24:03and the food production sector,
0:24:03 > 0:24:06in a different manner to other businesses.
0:24:06 > 0:24:10Thank you very much to all three of you for your company tonight.
0:24:10 > 0:24:12That is it for tonight.
0:24:12 > 0:24:14We'll be back at the same time next week
0:24:14 > 0:24:16for the final programme of the term.
0:24:16 > 0:24:18- Until then, good evening. - Good evening.