0:00:19 > 0:00:23Good evening and welcome to the last CF99 of the term.
0:00:23 > 0:00:27Tonight after the scandal over the report on the future of the NHS,
0:00:27 > 0:00:29the minister wins a vote of no confidence,
0:00:29 > 0:00:35but a prominent Plaid Cymru member loses the whip.
0:00:35 > 0:00:38And does the Assembly have power but no responsibility?
0:00:38 > 0:00:41A look at how the wind is blowing in the Silk Commission
0:00:41 > 0:00:43looking at the future of the Assembly.
0:00:43 > 0:00:47Joining us for discussion tonight are AMs Keith Davies from Labour
0:00:47 > 0:00:49and Suzy Davies from the Conservatives.
0:00:49 > 0:00:52Myrddin Edwards is representing the Liberal Democrats
0:00:52 > 0:00:57and MP Jonathan Edwards of Plaid Cymru is in our Carmarthen studio.
0:00:57 > 0:01:00Welcome to you all.
0:01:00 > 0:01:05There was no end of term concert or games for AMs at the end of term.
0:01:05 > 0:01:08But a thorny political problem.
0:01:08 > 0:01:11After being questioned by a committee this morning,
0:01:11 > 0:01:15the Health Minister narrowly won a vote of no confidence this afternoon.
0:01:16 > 0:01:19The former Plaid Cymru leader Dafydd Elis-Thomas
0:01:19 > 0:01:23was not in the Senedd for the vote
0:01:23 > 0:01:27and as a result he has temporarily lost the whip.
0:01:27 > 0:01:30In the last few minutes he has confirmed that he will
0:01:30 > 0:01:33argue that he was not absent without reason.
0:01:33 > 0:01:35Here's James Williams.
0:01:35 > 0:01:39In the political world, when you have a strong hand,
0:01:39 > 0:01:41you have to make the most of it.
0:01:41 > 0:01:44And that's what we saw the opposition parties trying to do
0:01:44 > 0:01:47tonight in the Assembly.
0:01:51 > 0:01:54When doubts were raised about the Marcus Longley report on the NHS,
0:01:54 > 0:01:58the Conservatives, Plaid Cymru and Liberal Democrats
0:01:58 > 0:02:00felt they had a trump card
0:02:00 > 0:02:04so they presented a motion of no confidence in the Health Minister,
0:02:04 > 0:02:09but some criticised them for playing their cards too early.
0:02:09 > 0:02:12When you do something in the chamber itself,
0:02:12 > 0:02:16it becomes political and then the Government
0:02:16 > 0:02:20and government backbenchers support the minister.
0:02:20 > 0:02:23Of course, they will support their own minister.
0:02:23 > 0:02:26So the opposition parties can't win.
0:02:26 > 0:02:30The sensible thing to do would be to drip, drip, drip,
0:02:30 > 0:02:35make sure the minister is seen as weak and then go for the motion,
0:02:35 > 0:02:38but not go for the jugular straight away.
0:02:38 > 0:02:41But the motion tonight failed
0:02:41 > 0:02:43because there was a joker in the pack.
0:02:43 > 0:02:47It made no sense to me to leave this university
0:02:47 > 0:02:50and go and vote against a Health Minister who has been very supportive
0:02:50 > 0:02:53of us and of the reforms that have to take place
0:02:53 > 0:02:55to raise the standard of the NHS across Wales
0:02:55 > 0:02:57and especially here in North Wales.
0:02:57 > 0:03:02I think it is high time we grew up as a party
0:03:02 > 0:03:06and took a much more constructive viewpoint about our politics
0:03:06 > 0:03:10rather than just calling votes of no confidence and being poodles
0:03:10 > 0:03:12and playing second fiddle to the Conservatives.
0:03:12 > 0:03:14What's the point of politics
0:03:14 > 0:03:18if it's just a matter of being for or against the government?
0:03:18 > 0:03:22I think we need more than that kind of politics in Wales.
0:03:22 > 0:03:24We need a vision of what Wales could become
0:03:24 > 0:03:28and that's not the way to achieve that.
0:03:28 > 0:03:30Of the three opposition leaders,
0:03:30 > 0:03:32Kirsty Williams of the Liberal Democrats
0:03:32 > 0:03:35was the only one to get a concession from the Government so far
0:03:35 > 0:03:38during budgetary discussions last year.
0:03:38 > 0:03:41The other two leaders are new players.
0:03:41 > 0:03:43Andrew RT Davies of the Conservatives
0:03:43 > 0:03:45and Plaid Cymru's Leanne Wood.
0:03:45 > 0:03:49And the political gap between them suggests that co-operation is the exception, not the rule.
0:03:49 > 0:03:51There is a pattern.
0:03:51 > 0:03:55Leanne Wood won't work with the Tories too often.
0:03:55 > 0:03:59She wants to be to the left of the Labour Party
0:03:59 > 0:04:04and hopes to get the votes in the Valleys and she can't do that
0:04:04 > 0:04:08if she is to the right of the Labour Party.
0:04:08 > 0:04:11I would certainly say politically that there is more room for them
0:04:11 > 0:04:14there than on the left.
0:04:14 > 0:04:17The opposition parties lost the game today,
0:04:17 > 0:04:19but are their chips up or down
0:04:19 > 0:04:23after taking what many consider to be quite a political risk.
0:04:29 > 0:04:34Myrddin Edwards, was it a gamble that failed?
0:04:34 > 0:04:39You don't put a motion like this before the Assembly without
0:04:39 > 0:04:42thinking about it deeply and that's what the three leaders did.
0:04:42 > 0:04:46They thought about this carefully.
0:04:46 > 0:04:50They weren't considering that the Health Minister could make
0:04:50 > 0:04:53these changes that will come and will be difficult for the NHS
0:04:53 > 0:04:56over the next weeks, months and years.
0:04:56 > 0:04:59They had no confidence in her.
0:04:59 > 0:05:03What caused that was the fact that she said that Marcus Longley's
0:05:03 > 0:05:07report that James mentioned in that piece was an independent report.
0:05:07 > 0:05:10It wasn't an independent report.
0:05:10 > 0:05:15We saw the Government's fingerprints all over this report.
0:05:15 > 0:05:20If she had said quite simply, "We've commissioned Marcus Longley
0:05:20 > 0:05:24"to help us tell the people of Wales why we have to change services."
0:05:24 > 0:05:26So the debate is over?
0:05:26 > 0:05:28We would have lost the vote anyway, but the symbolism of all three
0:05:28 > 0:05:33opposition leaders coming together and co-operating, as James said,
0:05:33 > 0:05:36to get the Conservatives and Plaid Cymru co-operating
0:05:36 > 0:05:38sends a strong message.
0:05:38 > 0:05:41This wasn't a frivolous gesture.
0:05:41 > 0:05:44Suzy Davies, Darren Millar went for the nuclear button at the beginning,
0:05:44 > 0:05:46was it too early?
0:05:46 > 0:05:49I don't think so.
0:05:49 > 0:05:53There is no more important service to the Welsh people
0:05:53 > 0:05:55than the NHS and over the last few months,
0:05:55 > 0:05:59people have lost confidence and faith in the minister.
0:05:59 > 0:06:02This is an important matter.
0:06:02 > 0:06:05But that's not what you've been discussing for a fortnight,
0:06:05 > 0:06:08but rather who said what in e-mails?
0:06:08 > 0:06:10But this is important.
0:06:10 > 0:06:13This is the end of the story in a way
0:06:13 > 0:06:16because the matter of faith in the minister has been
0:06:16 > 0:06:20going on for sometime and as Simon Thomas said,
0:06:20 > 0:06:24we have reached this situation
0:06:24 > 0:06:29because of what happened in the past, not just in the e-mails.
0:06:29 > 0:06:35Keith Davies, the Health Minister has survived and won by one vote,
0:06:35 > 0:06:39but the Government has to sell these changes.
0:06:39 > 0:06:42Tonight we've had a taste of what will be
0:06:42 > 0:06:45announced by the Betsi Cadwaladr Health Board.
0:06:45 > 0:06:47You haven't had a chance to read it,
0:06:47 > 0:06:50and I have only looked at the bullet points,
0:06:50 > 0:06:53but there are controversial things,
0:06:53 > 0:06:56accident and emergency departments are going to go,
0:06:56 > 0:06:59including Blaenau Ffestiniog.
0:06:59 > 0:07:03Glan Clwyd will lose out to Ysbyty Maelor and Ysbyty Gwynedd on emergency work.
0:07:03 > 0:07:07These are hard things to sell and now the report the Government
0:07:07 > 0:07:10was relying on to sell it, the Longley report,
0:07:10 > 0:07:12there are question marks over it.
0:07:12 > 0:07:15I don't think there are any questions over it.
0:07:15 > 0:07:17No-one has complained about the report.
0:07:17 > 0:07:19They are talking about some scheme.
0:07:19 > 0:07:22I thought it was a weak step today
0:07:22 > 0:07:25because Lesley Griffiths was not to blame.
0:07:25 > 0:07:28She had done nothing to do with the report.
0:07:28 > 0:07:30But nobody has argued against the report.
0:07:30 > 0:07:32But thinking about the public,
0:07:32 > 0:07:35I know that several weeks ago you took the Longley report
0:07:35 > 0:07:39to a meeting in Llanelli and asked what people thought about it.
0:07:39 > 0:07:43Do you think you could take that report to a meeting next week?
0:07:43 > 0:07:45I'm disappointed by what happened today
0:07:45 > 0:07:48because the public will have no faith in it.
0:07:48 > 0:07:52When we discuss it with them, opposition parties will say
0:07:52 > 0:07:59that you can't trust anybody and I think that is a terrible step.
0:07:59 > 0:08:02So will opposition parties have succeeded?
0:08:02 > 0:08:05We'll look at the plans and I know now that Hywel Dda
0:08:05 > 0:08:09has put plans in front of us that won't be acceptable
0:08:09 > 0:08:12to everybody in the area and they will be controversial,
0:08:12 > 0:08:16but the public will say they can't trust anyone from now on.
0:08:16 > 0:08:21- Jonathan Edwards, in Carmarthen, good evening.- Good evening.
0:08:21 > 0:08:26Dafydd Elis-Thomas, the big development tonight, losing the whip.
0:08:26 > 0:08:28Why have they taken this step?
0:08:28 > 0:08:31Once you are a member of any political group
0:08:31 > 0:08:35you have individual responsibilities to that group.
0:08:35 > 0:08:39Clearly, campaigning against the Labour Party's agenda
0:08:39 > 0:08:43to centralise the NHS has been a part of Plaid Cymru's work
0:08:43 > 0:08:50in the Assembly for several terms and has been a basis of the deal
0:08:50 > 0:08:54in terms of Wales that we made in the third Assembly
0:08:54 > 0:08:57with the partnership with the Labour Party,
0:08:57 > 0:09:01that they yielded their policy of centralising health services.
0:09:01 > 0:09:06So I think once an individual breaks the whip, breaks a clear policy
0:09:06 > 0:09:12the party has, there are implications in terms of discipline.
0:09:12 > 0:09:15We have had a response from Dafydd Elis-Thomas tonight
0:09:15 > 0:09:19explaining clearly that he was not absent without reason.
0:09:19 > 0:09:21He is the Chancellor of Bangor University
0:09:21 > 0:09:23and he had a large audience of over 600
0:09:23 > 0:09:28twice during the day and he had to be there as well.
0:09:28 > 0:09:34The BBC comments have led to the whip being withdrawn today.
0:09:34 > 0:09:38Dafydd Elis-Thomas is a great politician and I have immense
0:09:38 > 0:09:43respect for him and the things he has achieved for Wales are great,
0:09:43 > 0:09:46he created this new politics in Wales,
0:09:46 > 0:09:50and he still has an important role within Plaid Cymru and Wales.
0:09:50 > 0:09:54Many people campaign hard to defend their health services in local
0:09:54 > 0:09:57hospitals and they will be disappointed
0:09:57 > 0:09:59to see what happened today.
0:09:59 > 0:10:04I can assure you as someone who reads the Llanelli Star every week
0:10:04 > 0:10:10that my constituents will be very upset that he supported
0:10:10 > 0:10:15this policy which will lead to the disruption of their services.
0:10:15 > 0:10:19What does Dafydd Elis-Thomas have to do to regain the whip?
0:10:19 > 0:10:23Like any politician, he has his own political agenda.
0:10:23 > 0:10:28I think he has to decide whether he wants to obey the party
0:10:28 > 0:10:33in the Assembly and I am sure there will be a disciplinary process.
0:10:33 > 0:10:37We'll see what happens over the next few days,
0:10:37 > 0:10:40but it is clear from what Dafydd Elis-Thomas said to you tonight,
0:10:40 > 0:10:43I hadn't heard these comments before this programme,
0:10:43 > 0:10:46that he is back-tracking a bit on what he said this afternoon.
0:10:46 > 0:10:51Keith, are you tempted to try to tempt the Lord over to your ranks?
0:10:51 > 0:10:56- He'd give you an outright majority. - He might come, who knows.
0:10:56 > 0:10:59The papers have talked about that over the last few months.
0:10:59 > 0:11:03- I don't see it happening, but it could happen.- Would you welcome it?
0:11:03 > 0:11:07Of course, he is a very good socialist.
0:11:07 > 0:11:12Suzy, we've seen the opposition parties
0:11:12 > 0:11:15co-operating for the first time to all intents and purposes.
0:11:15 > 0:11:18Is there a pattern developing, Leanne Wood today was unhappy
0:11:18 > 0:11:22when someone suggested she was happy to co-operate with the Tories?
0:11:22 > 0:11:25This isn't the first time we've agreed on something with them
0:11:25 > 0:11:28and voted against the government.
0:11:28 > 0:11:30It happens almost every week.
0:11:30 > 0:11:32You disagreed over the Budget, didn't you?
0:11:32 > 0:11:35Everyone was asking for different things
0:11:35 > 0:11:39and the Lib Dems were the only ones who is got a concession in the end,
0:11:39 > 0:11:42but there was more co-operation this time?
0:11:42 > 0:11:46It is a possibility and it depends what happens.
0:11:46 > 0:11:49The people of Wales are our priority.
0:11:49 > 0:11:52And if we have common ground we can make the same response
0:11:52 > 0:11:58so, of course, we will co-operate in those circumstances.
0:12:00 > 0:12:02Myrddin, the split is 30/30,
0:12:02 > 0:12:07but it doesn't seem that Carwyn Jones had any trouble
0:12:07 > 0:12:09governing over the last few years.
0:12:09 > 0:12:12Of course, there were disputes over the Budget
0:12:12 > 0:12:15and the coalition agreement,
0:12:15 > 0:12:22but why have the opposition parties failed to land many blows on him?
0:12:22 > 0:12:24Is he slow with legislation
0:12:24 > 0:12:28or have you failed to agree with the other opposition parties?
0:12:28 > 0:12:31You've just answered my question.
0:12:31 > 0:12:34The Government has not done much in the Assembly.
0:12:34 > 0:12:38They haven't done much controversial or brought many Bills through to discuss.
0:12:38 > 0:12:41They keep the controversial things to the end,
0:12:41 > 0:12:43but for example with the Budget,
0:12:43 > 0:12:46they worked with us and we got more money for poor children in Wales
0:12:46 > 0:12:49and we were happy with that, but what happens next year?
0:12:49 > 0:12:52They have to find someone else to make a deal with,
0:12:52 > 0:12:56but as Vaughan said, not much has come into the Assembly.
0:12:56 > 0:12:59They haven't found themselves in a difficult situation
0:12:59 > 0:13:02where they need to depend on other parties.
0:13:02 > 0:13:06Jonathan, Carwyn Jones is in a comfortable position, isn't he?
0:13:06 > 0:13:10He gets his way in the Assembly without much trouble.
0:13:10 > 0:13:14He can blame London for everything that goes wrong.
0:13:14 > 0:13:16He is happy enough, isn't he?
0:13:16 > 0:13:20I sometimes watch the Assembly on TV
0:13:20 > 0:13:22if I can catch the highlights
0:13:22 > 0:13:26and when you watch First Minister's Questions it worries me
0:13:26 > 0:13:31a great deal that the presiding officer allows the First Minister
0:13:31 > 0:13:34to answer questions by asking more questions.
0:13:34 > 0:13:37That's not how the process should work.
0:13:37 > 0:13:43AMs should ask a question and the First Minister should answer them.
0:13:43 > 0:13:46He is a arrogant man in my opinion and we have an arrogant
0:13:46 > 0:13:51Government in Wales on the basis of his personality.
0:13:51 > 0:13:54To come back to this vote of no confidence,
0:13:54 > 0:13:57I think it is more than just the e-mails which show
0:13:57 > 0:14:01someone being paid to make a report on the basis
0:14:01 > 0:14:05of what the Government wants to justify their own policy.
0:14:05 > 0:14:09It is a vote of no confidence unfortunately in the Health Minister
0:14:09 > 0:14:12and we have a Cabinet full of weak ministers
0:14:12 > 0:14:14and she is out of her depth.
0:14:14 > 0:14:17She is responsible for a £5 billion budget
0:14:17 > 0:14:19and it's a disgrace how Wales is being governed at the moment.
0:14:19 > 0:14:22You have to ask the question about lack of discipline
0:14:22 > 0:14:27in your party in terms of the chance you have had to land a blow
0:14:27 > 0:14:32on the Government and you have thrown that chance away.
0:14:34 > 0:14:38I think next year in Welsh politics will be very interesting.
0:14:38 > 0:14:41What we will increasingly see is the battle between the Tories
0:14:41 > 0:14:45and Plaid Cymru to see who can make the best alternative choice
0:14:45 > 0:14:48for the people of Wales in the next elections.
0:14:48 > 0:14:51What about the lack of discipline in Plaid Cymru?
0:14:51 > 0:14:55That will be solved through the channels stated tonight,
0:14:55 > 0:15:00but the important thing is that it has been a very good week for the Assembly.
0:15:00 > 0:15:04It is important that Elin Jones has agreed to be deputy
0:15:04 > 0:15:07and that shows that groups are ready to lay the challenge
0:15:07 > 0:15:09at Labour's door.
0:15:09 > 0:15:14It is early days for Leanne Wood as leader,
0:15:14 > 0:15:17but I can see that Plaid Cymru will create that alternative choice
0:15:17 > 0:15:21and the Tories and the Lib Dems will find it much harder
0:15:21 > 0:15:24because they are in power in Westminster
0:15:24 > 0:15:27and they have to make the difficult choice
0:15:27 > 0:15:32to distance themselves from the bad policies in London or support them.
0:15:32 > 0:15:36The Welsh Government will be freer to go back
0:15:36 > 0:15:39and develop a true opposition party in Wales.
0:15:39 > 0:15:42Keith Davies, are you surprised by how comfortable things have been
0:15:42 > 0:15:44for you over the last year?
0:15:44 > 0:15:48Yes but the truth is that Carwyn Jones published
0:15:48 > 0:15:53a programme for Government yesterday and nobody questioned it.
0:15:53 > 0:15:55They accepted the programme.
0:15:55 > 0:15:58If they accept our programme, it will be easy.
0:15:58 > 0:16:00We've got some shocked expressions, here.
0:16:00 > 0:16:04We've heard that some four times before.
0:16:04 > 0:16:07We're fed up with what's in the programme.
0:16:07 > 0:16:10Jonathan was talking about
0:16:10 > 0:16:13unpopular policies coming from Westminster.
0:16:13 > 0:16:17We heard early this week about £2 billion of investment
0:16:17 > 0:16:18coming into Wales.
0:16:18 > 0:16:22Electrifying the line up to Swansea. I don't call that a bad policy.
0:16:22 > 0:16:28In 2009 it was part of our policy with Labour in Westminster.
0:16:28 > 0:16:31We won't go into that!
0:16:31 > 0:16:34It has been a busy nine months for the Silk Commission members
0:16:34 > 0:16:37concerning the future of devolution as they travel across Wales,
0:16:37 > 0:16:40assessing people's opinions about the Assembly's powers.
0:16:40 > 0:16:43The process of collecting evidence is nearly over
0:16:43 > 0:16:46and an opinion poll by the commission
0:16:46 > 0:16:50has shown support for devolving income tax powers to Wales.
0:16:50 > 0:16:53Elliw Gwawr reports.
0:16:53 > 0:16:57At the moment the Assembly has to make cutbacks
0:16:57 > 0:17:02as its only source of income comes from the Treasury,
0:17:02 > 0:17:05but is it high time that was changed?
0:17:05 > 0:17:09This is what the Silk Commission has been asking over the last few months.
0:17:09 > 0:17:13According to Cheryl Gillian who set-up the commission,
0:17:13 > 0:17:16with power comes responsibility
0:17:16 > 0:17:17and it is high time, she says,
0:17:17 > 0:17:20that the Assembly Government starts to pay its way
0:17:20 > 0:17:24and take responsibility for raising some of the money it spends.
0:17:24 > 0:17:29I think it is a responsible thing to ask any democratic body
0:17:29 > 0:17:33to raise some of the money it spends.
0:17:33 > 0:17:39That is essential and I think it will lead to
0:17:39 > 0:17:44more mature discussion about policies in Wales
0:17:44 > 0:17:49and also I think it will lead to better connections
0:17:49 > 0:17:53between the Welsh Government and the world of business.
0:17:53 > 0:17:57But the question of who is responsible for the public purse
0:17:57 > 0:18:01worries many in the world of business.
0:18:01 > 0:18:05Unfortunately if we have different taxes in Wales,
0:18:05 > 0:18:08I think it will be difficult for the business world in England.
0:18:08 > 0:18:11They will have to decide whether to relocate to Wales
0:18:11 > 0:18:14with lower taxes or if it is the other way around with England.
0:18:14 > 0:18:18What we want in the business world, in Wales especially,
0:18:18 > 0:18:20is for things to be level for everybody.
0:18:20 > 0:18:22That everyone has the same respect
0:18:22 > 0:18:25and things don't change from year to year.
0:18:25 > 0:18:28That's what has a negative effect on business.
0:18:28 > 0:18:31The commission has gauged public opinion
0:18:31 > 0:18:36and a recent poll said the majority supported
0:18:36 > 0:18:39tax devolution to the Welsh Government.
0:18:39 > 0:18:4364% of the 2,000 asked thought the Assembly should determine
0:18:43 > 0:18:46the level of income tax,
0:18:46 > 0:18:51but 81% thought it shouldn't be done without another referendum.
0:18:52 > 0:18:56And if taxes were higher in Wales, only 28% still believed
0:18:56 > 0:18:59they should be devolved.
0:18:59 > 0:19:03But ICM, who ran the poll, said there was evidence
0:19:03 > 0:19:08of lack of understanding of the current taxation system.
0:19:08 > 0:19:13I think the subject is a complicated one.
0:19:13 > 0:19:16One of the things we have to do in our report, I think,
0:19:16 > 0:19:22is educate people on how things work and how things are at the moment.
0:19:23 > 0:19:26Not everyone has faith in the process.
0:19:28 > 0:19:31I think the Silk Commission is preparing the way for the first part
0:19:31 > 0:19:35of their report which I think will come out in September or
0:19:35 > 0:19:39October and that is so they can say then that they more or less
0:19:39 > 0:19:43are doing what the people want.
0:19:44 > 0:19:47So in a word, it is a fix.
0:19:47 > 0:19:51The commission will publish its findings in the autumn,
0:19:51 > 0:19:54but in the meantime, Westminster will decide what use
0:19:54 > 0:19:58they wish to make of the information.
0:19:58 > 0:20:00Elliw Gwawr.
0:20:00 > 0:20:06Keith Davies, has this place got too much power without responsibility?
0:20:06 > 0:20:09I think we in the Labour Party wants to raise some kind of taxes.
0:20:09 > 0:20:12I think the Silk Commission is looking at it as well.
0:20:12 > 0:20:18On things like waste disposal, and air travel but also on income tax.
0:20:20 > 0:20:23But also, on income tax,
0:20:23 > 0:20:27Trimsaran council can raise taxes, the Assembly cannot.
0:20:27 > 0:20:30So this place should have that power?
0:20:30 > 0:20:32In my opinion, we should have a referendum on it
0:20:32 > 0:20:36and if the people of Wales are ready, as they are in Scotland,
0:20:36 > 0:20:39then we will welcome it.
0:20:39 > 0:20:41How would you vote in that referendum?
0:20:41 > 0:20:43I would vote for tax raising powers.
0:20:43 > 0:20:48If you have responsibility, the same as when you look at your
0:20:48 > 0:20:52personal salary and expenditure, you perhaps make better priorities.
0:20:52 > 0:20:58- Are you spending foolishly now? - Yes. On some things, maybe.
0:20:58 > 0:21:03What was that house in north Wales?
0:21:03 > 0:21:05I don't remember the details now.
0:21:05 > 0:21:09Suzie, do we still need a new referendum?
0:21:09 > 0:21:12We can reform the House of Lords without a referendum.
0:21:12 > 0:21:15Do we need another one?
0:21:15 > 0:21:17I sympathise with what you say,
0:21:17 > 0:21:22but we shouldn't jump ahead of what the Silk Commission will say.
0:21:22 > 0:21:25A lot of ideas are coming into the pot at the moment and everything is
0:21:25 > 0:21:28being considered and a referendum
0:21:28 > 0:21:32is just one of the of the possibilities.
0:21:32 > 0:21:38I don't know. It just depends on what the question is in the end.
0:21:38 > 0:21:41Jonathan, do you want another referendum?
0:21:41 > 0:21:45I don't think we need another referendum.
0:21:45 > 0:21:47What the ICM poll clearly shows
0:21:47 > 0:21:50is that the people of Wales are far ahead
0:21:50 > 0:21:54of the parties and possibly ahead of the national party
0:21:54 > 0:21:56in Wales and we need to catch up.
0:21:56 > 0:21:59The referendum last year showed the vast majority
0:21:59 > 0:22:03were in favour of more powers for Wales.
0:22:03 > 0:22:08People weren't voting for section four of the 2006 Bill,
0:22:08 > 0:22:12they were voting in favour of further powers in Wales.
0:22:12 > 0:22:16We have to face a huge economic emergency at the moment.
0:22:16 > 0:22:20And what is essential to improve the economy in Wales
0:22:20 > 0:22:22is that we have the levers to create jobs
0:22:22 > 0:22:25and political powers to change the economy.
0:22:25 > 0:22:29To go back to the announcement on electrification, we welcome that.
0:22:29 > 0:22:32I raised the matter 15 times in the House,
0:22:32 > 0:22:37but to make the most of that investment in transport infrastructure,
0:22:37 > 0:22:41we need the fiscal powers to make sure that manufacturing companies
0:22:41 > 0:22:44make the most of the better links
0:22:44 > 0:22:47and that's why those powers are important and we need them now,
0:22:47 > 0:22:51not just talking about it for years and then having a referendum.
0:22:51 > 0:22:54People in Wales are losing jobs while they discuss it.
0:22:54 > 0:22:57There will be less in coffers unless Westminster still gives
0:22:57 > 0:23:01more money according to the Barnett formula?
0:23:02 > 0:23:09What is essential is that any new taxation system is cost neutral.
0:23:09 > 0:23:13That's why I have some concern that the discussions about reforming
0:23:13 > 0:23:17the block grant and borrowing powers are separate from this.
0:23:17 > 0:23:20They should be part of the same process.
0:23:20 > 0:23:23If you have taxation powers, you need borrowing powers to even
0:23:23 > 0:23:28flatten out the peaks and troughs when taxation falls.
0:23:29 > 0:23:33If I can just finish, if we have taxation powers,
0:23:33 > 0:23:37it would mean the Welsh Government is forced to focus on creating
0:23:37 > 0:23:40wealth to fund public services.
0:23:40 > 0:23:42At the moment they are like little
0:23:42 > 0:23:44children getting pocket money and giving it out as they want.
0:23:44 > 0:23:50Apart from taxation, everyone here agrees about these borrowing powers.
0:23:50 > 0:23:54Why does the commission need to determine them?
0:23:54 > 0:23:57Would your Government in Westminster have been able to do it?
0:23:57 > 0:24:04They are looking at many elements related to devolution and it is
0:24:04 > 0:24:09important that we have a discussion over what powers the Assembly wants.
0:24:09 > 0:24:13In our evidence to the Silk Commission,
0:24:13 > 0:24:17we said we wanted taxation powers to come into Wales
0:24:17 > 0:24:20and we'll see about the referendum, we'll see what happens.
0:24:20 > 0:24:23Plenty to discuss in the next sitting.
0:24:23 > 0:24:26Thanks for coming to us at the end of this session.
0:24:26 > 0:24:29That's it for tonight and for the series.
0:24:29 > 0:24:32Thanks for your company and we'll be back in September.
0:24:32 > 0:24:35- Until then, have a good summer and good night.- Good night.