0:00:20 > 0:00:23Hello and welcome. It's great to be back after the long summer.
0:00:23 > 0:00:28Assembly Members aren't back yet and Westminster is taking a break
0:00:28 > 0:00:32for the conferences, but we have politics to discuss.
0:00:32 > 0:00:35Tonight, after the Westminster Government announced
0:00:35 > 0:00:37it wanted to turn its back on GCSEs,
0:00:37 > 0:00:40would different qualifications in England and Wales
0:00:40 > 0:00:43be a blessing or a curse?
0:00:43 > 0:00:46And, it's the economy, stupid.
0:00:46 > 0:00:50No, not Clinton, but Leanne Wood's priority at the party conference.
0:00:50 > 0:00:52But how would the party create jobs?
0:00:52 > 0:00:57There's no shortage of GCSEs or O-levels among our guests.
0:00:57 > 0:01:00They're all prepared for tonight's examination.
0:01:00 > 0:01:04Welcome to Conservative MP Alan Cairns,
0:01:04 > 0:01:07Baroness Morgan of Ely, Eluned Morgan, from Labour,
0:01:07 > 0:01:10and Treasurer of Plaid Cymru, Dr Dafydd Trystan,
0:01:10 > 0:01:13who is also the registrar of Y Coleg Cymraeg.
0:01:13 > 0:01:14Welcome.
0:01:14 > 0:01:18There is plenty of discussion on GCSEs at the moment.
0:01:18 > 0:01:21New results were announced in Wales today
0:01:21 > 0:01:23after the Education Minister
0:01:23 > 0:01:27insisted that the WJEC regraded English papers.
0:01:27 > 0:01:31The Westminster Government has decided to say goodbye
0:01:31 > 0:01:34to GCSEs in England in 2015
0:01:34 > 0:01:38and replace them with an English baccalaureate.
0:01:38 > 0:01:43But what are the implications for school children in Wales?
0:01:51 > 0:01:531987.
0:01:53 > 0:01:55When clothes were colourful, hair was big
0:01:55 > 0:01:57and shoulders were bigger still.
0:01:57 > 0:02:02Margaret Thatcher was elected to No. 10 for the third time
0:02:02 > 0:02:04and 16-year-olds sat O-level exams
0:02:04 > 0:02:08for the last time in England and Wales.
0:02:08 > 0:02:11GCSEs took their place with an emphasis on course work.
0:02:11 > 0:02:14Now they're talking about a new system in England,
0:02:14 > 0:02:17similar to the old O-level system.
0:02:17 > 0:02:20No modules, but one exam at the end of the course.
0:02:20 > 0:02:24The Westminster Government says the aim is to raise standards,
0:02:24 > 0:02:26but what about us in Wales?
0:02:26 > 0:02:30The danger is how people outside Wales, particularly,
0:02:30 > 0:02:33but also in Wales - employers and universities and so on,
0:02:33 > 0:02:38see Welsh qualifications if they are different to those in England.
0:02:38 > 0:02:43I'm sure Wales can come up with qualifications which are strong
0:02:43 > 0:02:45and appropriate for Welsh students.
0:02:45 > 0:02:50The Welsh Government emphasised this decision couldn't be made quickly.
0:02:50 > 0:02:54Leighton Andrews said Welsh Ministers had committed
0:02:54 > 0:02:58to avoiding any changes to GCSEs until the results
0:02:58 > 0:03:04of the review of 14-19 education are known in November.
0:03:04 > 0:03:08There has been a mixed response to the Welsh Government's decision.
0:03:08 > 0:03:12Aled Davies is a governor, a Conservative councillor
0:03:12 > 0:03:15and a father who lives on the border between England and Wales.
0:03:15 > 0:03:18It sends the message that Leighton Andrew is happy
0:03:18 > 0:03:21to give Welsh children second best.
0:03:21 > 0:03:25I want to see Welsh children having a good education.
0:03:25 > 0:03:29The are 850 to 900 children in Llanfyllin at the moment.
0:03:29 > 0:03:33About 150 children come over the border from England.
0:03:33 > 0:03:37The numbers in Llanfyllin will fall very rapidly.
0:03:37 > 0:03:41Sion Morgan was in the first year of pupils to take GCSEs
0:03:41 > 0:03:47and his daughter will be the first to work for the new qualification.
0:03:47 > 0:03:51If my children move to England to work
0:03:51 > 0:03:58and try for jobs against people who have been through the Ebacc system
0:03:58 > 0:04:01and employers in England
0:04:01 > 0:04:07look at the Ebacc qualification before looking at the Welsh one
0:04:07 > 0:04:10and favour it, it may not be beneficial to us.
0:04:10 > 0:04:15It's not just about devolution, but a result of governments
0:04:15 > 0:04:20with different values in Wales and England.
0:04:20 > 0:04:24We have a Conservative-led government in London
0:04:24 > 0:04:26and a Labour government in Wales
0:04:26 > 0:04:30and they see the world in fundamentally different ways.
0:04:30 > 0:04:35Devolution can do things like that and this is an inevitable result.
0:04:35 > 0:04:39It's impossible to predict what education will be like
0:04:39 > 0:04:41in five years' time,
0:04:41 > 0:04:46but more than just Offa's Dyke will separate the two countries by 2017.
0:04:48 > 0:04:50Siwan Richards reporting.
0:04:50 > 0:04:54- Alun Cairns, did you do O-levels or GCSEs?- O-levels.
0:04:54 > 0:04:59- Better than GCSEs?- I'm sure GCSEs were fine at the beginning.
0:04:59 > 0:05:02The Tories introduced them.
0:05:02 > 0:05:06But an Ofqual report published in May this year
0:05:06 > 0:05:10says they have been undermined over the last decade
0:05:10 > 0:05:14because there are so many modules and so many chances to resit
0:05:14 > 0:05:19until the candidate comes up to an A or A*.
0:05:19 > 0:05:22What's wrong with that?
0:05:22 > 0:05:27It doesn't differentiate between the best and those who try hard to pass.
0:05:27 > 0:05:32Employers and universities need to find out who the best are.
0:05:32 > 0:05:36Schools have to work out who needs more help.
0:05:36 > 0:05:41But why not have a discussion between Belfast, Cardiff Bay
0:05:41 > 0:05:44and Westminster, saying, "We have problems.
0:05:44 > 0:05:46"We'll review them and change what needs changing",
0:05:46 > 0:05:49rather than throw it all out, saying,
0:05:49 > 0:05:52"We're going back to a system where the work you do
0:05:52 > 0:05:55"over the first 18 months doesn't count"?
0:05:55 > 0:05:59GCSEs are failing our children.
0:05:59 > 0:06:03It's not fair that everyone passes.
0:06:03 > 0:06:06Employers and universities can't differentiate between candidates.
0:06:06 > 0:06:11Some universities are asking that our children sit different exams
0:06:11 > 0:06:15to find out who the best are and who needs more help.
0:06:15 > 0:06:19But universities offer places on the basis of A-levels rather than GCSEs.
0:06:19 > 0:06:22On the basis of qualifications as a whole.
0:06:22 > 0:06:27They have to pass subjects like English and maths and science
0:06:27 > 0:06:31and because they pass them at GCSE level, they have to find the best.
0:06:31 > 0:06:35Eluned Morgan, what should the Welsh Government do?
0:06:35 > 0:06:39Alun suggests Wales should follow suit. Is that right?
0:06:39 > 0:06:43We need to consult and that's what they're doing.
0:06:43 > 0:06:49They're consulting teachers, parents, professionals
0:06:49 > 0:06:54and also the people who will employ these people.
0:06:54 > 0:06:57What's important is that we have a system that doesn't differentiate
0:06:57 > 0:07:00between people when they're 14.
0:07:00 > 0:07:06We don't say, "You will win and you will lose", when they're 14.
0:07:06 > 0:07:08Nobody wants that.
0:07:08 > 0:07:12The other thing is, you need to have another system
0:07:12 > 0:07:16where employers can say, "This is the most successful group."
0:07:16 > 0:07:19That's not possible at the moment.
0:07:19 > 0:07:21The perception is important.
0:07:21 > 0:07:25If people think the Welsh qualification is easier,
0:07:25 > 0:07:29- that is a problem isn't it? - That will be a problem.
0:07:29 > 0:07:34But what is important now, and I think the Westminster Government,
0:07:34 > 0:07:38to some extent, has picked a fight here, because it hasn't consulted.
0:07:38 > 0:07:42It has made a decision without consulting or respecting
0:07:42 > 0:07:45the fact that we live in the United Kingdom
0:07:45 > 0:07:49where it is important that the children
0:07:49 > 0:07:53understand each other and go to each other's universities.
0:07:53 > 0:07:57Dafydd Trystan, an exam is a measure, that's all.
0:07:57 > 0:08:02That is, if an employer complains that someone arriving at 16
0:08:02 > 0:08:06doesn't have the literacy and numeracy skills needed,
0:08:06 > 0:08:10changing the way that's measured doesn't solve the problem.
0:08:10 > 0:08:13Certainly not.
0:08:13 > 0:08:18What's happened is that there's an ideological agenda in Westminster
0:08:18 > 0:08:21and Michael Gove is pushing these changes through
0:08:21 > 0:08:25for party political reasons without worrying about children
0:08:25 > 0:08:30and without considering the credible options to improve the system.
0:08:30 > 0:08:35I agree with Alun in terms of the emphasis on exams
0:08:35 > 0:08:37rather than continuous assessment.
0:08:37 > 0:08:42There has to be a place for exams and coursework, but...
0:08:42 > 0:08:46Would Plaid Cymru keep GCSEs?
0:08:46 > 0:08:50What we have argued for in Wales for more than a decade
0:08:50 > 0:08:55is qualifications that are appropriate for Wales.
0:08:55 > 0:08:59No, no, no. Qualifications for Wales...
0:08:59 > 0:09:02What worries me is that we'll become insulated.
0:09:02 > 0:09:06I want Welsh children to go out into the world,
0:09:06 > 0:09:09not something inward-looking.
0:09:09 > 0:09:13We have to have a system which is respected abroad.
0:09:13 > 0:09:17The Education Minister, who is in your party, Leighton Andrews,
0:09:17 > 0:09:19says he might not have a choice.
0:09:19 > 0:09:25He doesn't believe the Ebacc will be appropriate for Wales
0:09:25 > 0:09:29and he might not have a choice.
0:09:29 > 0:09:33The most important thing is that we concentrate on fundamentals
0:09:33 > 0:09:37and get literacy and numeracy standards up.
0:09:37 > 0:09:40There is a problem there under your Government.
0:09:40 > 0:09:45There is a problem and Leighton is now focused on that.
0:09:45 > 0:09:48What's happened in the past?
0:09:48 > 0:09:52I think they concentrated on the foundation phase
0:09:52 > 0:09:56and the Welsh baccalaureate and took their eye off it.
0:09:56 > 0:10:00- Your government. Were those mistakes? - I think that was a mistake.
0:10:00 > 0:10:06I think it's a problem and we need to make up for it.
0:10:06 > 0:10:09And the children of Wales pay price?
0:10:09 > 0:10:12I think Welsh children are paying the price at the moment
0:10:12 > 0:10:16and we have to have a system that raises standards,
0:10:16 > 0:10:20not just within Wales, but compared to the outside world.
0:10:20 > 0:10:24We have to have a system which proves standards are improving
0:10:24 > 0:10:27and qualifications are the important one.
0:10:27 > 0:10:31The only model we have to compare with is the Welsh baccalaureate.
0:10:31 > 0:10:35Some universities in England don't accept it
0:10:35 > 0:10:38because they don't see that it's good enough.
0:10:38 > 0:10:42We could have introduced the international baccalaureate,
0:10:42 > 0:10:46but the Assembly Government wanted its a model in Wales.
0:10:46 > 0:10:49That's what I'm worried we'll get with GCSEs.
0:10:49 > 0:10:53We'll get Welsh GCSEs instead of the English baccalaureate
0:10:53 > 0:10:57and universities and employers will look at the Ebacc
0:10:57 > 0:10:59before they look at the Welsh GCSE.
0:10:59 > 0:11:01Can I ask another question?
0:11:01 > 0:11:04Before the bonfire of the quangos,
0:11:04 > 0:11:09we had a body called ACAC, who oversaw exams in Wales.
0:11:09 > 0:11:15Do you think it's right that the Education Minister who, perhaps,
0:11:15 > 0:11:19has all kinds of motives and political interests,
0:11:19 > 0:11:22is in charge of the WJEC?
0:11:22 > 0:11:28There are questions about regulation and quangos like ACAC.
0:11:28 > 0:11:32We have seen the effect of the disappearance of the WDA
0:11:32 > 0:11:34over the last few years.
0:11:34 > 0:11:39We have to ask whether this is the most appropriate system...
0:11:39 > 0:11:44Some people will be very dubious
0:11:44 > 0:11:48that a politician has the last word over exams.
0:11:48 > 0:11:52I'm dubious about that. That's why we need regulators
0:11:52 > 0:11:56who are at arm's length from any politicians.
0:11:56 > 0:11:59The children are what's important.
0:11:59 > 0:12:02We have to remember, talking about the quangos,
0:12:02 > 0:12:05Dafydd spoke about the WDA and ACAC.
0:12:05 > 0:12:11Plaid Cymru and the Labour Party supported getting rid of quangos.
0:12:11 > 0:12:15We defended them because of the problems we have now.
0:12:15 > 0:12:19Returning to Michael Gove's statement, Eluned Morgan,
0:12:19 > 0:12:23one thing he did say was that he wanted to get rid of competition
0:12:23 > 0:12:25between the exam boards.
0:12:25 > 0:12:28One board examined one subject and there has been a race to the bottom.
0:12:28 > 0:12:31Do you support that?
0:12:31 > 0:12:35I think that has happened and has created problems.
0:12:35 > 0:12:39I think there is enough evidence to show that was happening
0:12:39 > 0:12:42and I think that makes sense.
0:12:42 > 0:12:46How we're going to deal with that in Wales, I don't know,
0:12:46 > 0:12:50but these questions are fundamental points.
0:12:50 > 0:12:52And questions over the future of the WJEC,
0:12:52 > 0:12:57which does a lot of its business on the other side of Offa's Dyke.
0:12:57 > 0:13:03There are challenges, but we have a very good exam board in Wales.
0:13:03 > 0:13:05It can meet our needs.
0:13:05 > 0:13:10But if the system in England is different from Wales,
0:13:10 > 0:13:14it is unlikely Michael Gove will be happy to see the WJEC
0:13:14 > 0:13:16examining children in England.
0:13:16 > 0:13:21And exam boards have partners not just in England and Wales
0:13:21 > 0:13:23but in Scotland and beyond.
0:13:23 > 0:13:25We have to move on.
0:13:25 > 0:13:29The conference season has begun and Leanne Wood chose to focus
0:13:29 > 0:13:34on the economy in her first big speech to the Plaid conference.
0:13:34 > 0:13:36She promised to create thousands of jobs
0:13:36 > 0:13:39by investing in the green economy.
0:13:39 > 0:13:41But why no talk of independence?
0:13:41 > 0:13:43Arwyn Jones reports.
0:13:46 > 0:13:51The conference, where the faithful come to support the hard work,
0:13:51 > 0:13:55prepare for battles to come and listen to speeches.
0:13:55 > 0:13:57Lots of speeches.
0:13:57 > 0:14:00The biggest attraction this year is the new leader.
0:14:00 > 0:14:04In this place, 600 years ago this summer,
0:14:04 > 0:14:09Owain Glyndwr won his last battle.
0:14:09 > 0:14:13The great wizard, as Shakespeare called him,
0:14:13 > 0:14:15is disappearing into the mist of history,
0:14:15 > 0:14:20but his spirit is alive.
0:14:20 > 0:14:24But if Owain Glyndwr's spirit was alive and well
0:14:24 > 0:14:27during the Plaid Cymru conference this weekend,
0:14:27 > 0:14:32the independence he and a number of Plaid Cymru members support
0:14:32 > 0:14:34was not so obvious.
0:14:34 > 0:14:38The subject did not come up once in Leanne Wood's speech.
0:14:38 > 0:14:42That may reflect the new emphasis within the party.
0:14:42 > 0:14:47According to one former leader who was listening to the new leader,
0:14:47 > 0:14:50she is right not to focus on independence
0:14:50 > 0:14:53until the situation in Scotland is clearer.
0:14:53 > 0:14:57If Scotland gets independence, one set of questions follows.
0:14:57 > 0:15:02If it doesn't get independence but England yields more power -
0:15:02 > 0:15:05the devo max, as they say,
0:15:05 > 0:15:08then there will be a question over Wales and Northern Ireland
0:15:08 > 0:15:10getting the same powers.
0:15:10 > 0:15:14I think we need to wait and see how that works out.
0:15:14 > 0:15:17At the same time, the economic question is so fundamental
0:15:17 > 0:15:23and such a challenge, Leanne was right to focus on that.
0:15:23 > 0:15:27Machynlleth - the home of Owain Glyndwr's Senedd.
0:15:27 > 0:15:30Everyone remembers his battle for independence,
0:15:30 > 0:15:32if not his economic plans.
0:15:32 > 0:15:36And perhaps there is confusion among Plaid Cymru supporters
0:15:36 > 0:15:39over their stand on those subjects.
0:15:39 > 0:15:43This is what it says on independence in the Plaid Cymru manifesto
0:15:43 > 0:15:45for last year's elections.
0:15:45 > 0:15:48The party has always believed that if the people of Wales
0:15:48 > 0:15:51have more power to shape their future,
0:15:51 > 0:15:55Wales becomes a stronger, more confident and successful country
0:15:55 > 0:16:00and that's why we continue to be committed to an independent Wales.
0:16:00 > 0:16:03That is, only when Wales is independent
0:16:03 > 0:16:06will the economy strengthen.
0:16:06 > 0:16:08But that has changed.
0:16:08 > 0:16:11Leanne Wood said over the weekend
0:16:11 > 0:16:14that the economy needs to be strong enough first,
0:16:14 > 0:16:16before we start to talk about independence.
0:16:16 > 0:16:21But details on the economy were thin on the ground in her speech.
0:16:21 > 0:16:27Politicians have a tendency to look for short-term answers,
0:16:27 > 0:16:30but what we need is a complete strategy,
0:16:30 > 0:16:35not just to improve the Welsh economy, but to improve skills,
0:16:35 > 0:16:38so that we can take advantage of those changes.
0:16:38 > 0:16:40It will take time to improve the economy
0:16:40 > 0:16:42and that message has hit home.
0:16:42 > 0:16:45Creating a green economy is the aim
0:16:45 > 0:16:49and Leanne Wood went along the canal to see what is possible.
0:16:49 > 0:16:53Although supportive of Leanne Wood,
0:16:53 > 0:16:56one supporter was doubtful of her plans.
0:16:56 > 0:17:01To say we can build an economy on the basis of green energy,
0:17:01 > 0:17:07especially tidal and wind energy and simple things like that,
0:17:07 > 0:17:12without clear plans, there's a big hole in that policy.
0:17:12 > 0:17:16I sense this is what we'll get from the other parties as well.
0:17:16 > 0:17:21I want simple policies, saying how we'll support small rural business.
0:17:21 > 0:17:26Leanne Wood knew she'd receive a warm welcome from conference-goers
0:17:26 > 0:17:30but what's more important is the response of thousand of voters
0:17:30 > 0:17:33who have turned their backs on the party over the last decade.
0:17:35 > 0:17:39Dafydd Trystan, let's go back to Dafydd Wigley's point.
0:17:39 > 0:17:42Until we know what happens in Scotland,
0:17:42 > 0:17:45Plaid Cymru have to stay where they are.
0:17:45 > 0:17:48It will frame everything for you.
0:17:48 > 0:17:50It will frame things
0:17:50 > 0:17:54because there's a lively debate in Scotland
0:17:54 > 0:17:59and the dynamic going on between the English and Scottish governments
0:17:59 > 0:18:02about different aspects of devolution.
0:18:02 > 0:18:07I'm certain that whatever happens in the referendum,
0:18:07 > 0:18:13in five years' time, devolution in Scotland will have moved on
0:18:13 > 0:18:15and that is the first step. That has an effect.
0:18:15 > 0:18:19But isn't it surprising that at a time when the question
0:18:19 > 0:18:21of the relationship between different parts of UK
0:18:21 > 0:18:25is at the top of the UK agenda, for the first time ever, perhaps,
0:18:25 > 0:18:28Plaid Cymru chooses not to discuss it?
0:18:28 > 0:18:31We have said a lot about it.
0:18:31 > 0:18:36Leanne went to Edinburgh recently and gave a speech
0:18:36 > 0:18:40about healthy relations between the nations of these islands.
0:18:40 > 0:18:43Between Wales, England and Scotland,
0:18:43 > 0:18:46and that is the kind of vision the party offers.
0:18:46 > 0:18:51- We were at the conference, weren't we?- Yes.
0:18:51 > 0:18:53You said the economy is the priority,
0:18:53 > 0:18:57but there was a feeling that you'd only just discovered
0:18:57 > 0:18:59the economy is in trouble.
0:18:59 > 0:19:04Ieuan Wyn Jones has been running the Welsh economy.
0:19:04 > 0:19:08It's important to acknowledge where the economy is at the moment.
0:19:08 > 0:19:12We have been thinking it is 15 years since the referendum
0:19:12 > 0:19:14that established the Assembly.
0:19:14 > 0:19:17What's happened since is the economy has shrunk
0:19:17 > 0:19:19and that is obviously a challenge.
0:19:19 > 0:19:23- With Plaid Cymru in charge. - Only for four years.
0:19:23 > 0:19:28But I think, as the party looks ahead,
0:19:28 > 0:19:32it's all important that by 2016,
0:19:32 > 0:19:35which is the period that we're talking about,
0:19:35 > 0:19:39that the party has a credible programme to rebuild the economy.
0:19:39 > 0:19:42That is the big challenge and discussion.
0:19:42 > 0:19:44What will the Welsh Government have to offer?
0:19:44 > 0:19:46What will Plaid Cymru offer?
0:19:46 > 0:19:48What will other parties offer?
0:19:48 > 0:19:52That is the challenge for us and other parties.
0:19:52 > 0:19:55I haven't heard anything new about the economy from Plaid Cymru.
0:19:55 > 0:20:00It is just the same things they have talked about in the past.
0:20:00 > 0:20:03And that is spending public money to create jobs.
0:20:03 > 0:20:08That is going to be impossible for the next five years.
0:20:08 > 0:20:11What about investing in green energy?
0:20:11 > 0:20:15It seems there are ideas coming out of all the parties
0:20:15 > 0:20:17that are not so different from each other.
0:20:17 > 0:20:21The idea of having regional banks.
0:20:21 > 0:20:24The Tories have suggested that, as have Plaid Cymru.
0:20:24 > 0:20:26I don't think Labour would oppose it.
0:20:26 > 0:20:31Would not a mature discussion be possible on this?
0:20:31 > 0:20:37Something like that would make a difference on the side lines,
0:20:37 > 0:20:39but it wouldn't change the culture of the economy.
0:20:39 > 0:20:42Or the way the economy grows.
0:20:42 > 0:20:49It would just help what Finance Wales do at the moment.
0:20:49 > 0:20:51But it won't transform everything.
0:20:51 > 0:20:53The only way to transform everything
0:20:53 > 0:20:59is to cut bureaucracy and taxes and support businesses to create wealth.
0:20:59 > 0:21:04The attitude of Plaid Cymru and Labour is to keep the bureaucracy,
0:21:04 > 0:21:07because they want to keep people in the public sector,
0:21:07 > 0:21:10rather than create wealth in the private sector.
0:21:10 > 0:21:17Let's bring Eluned in. Leanne Wood spoke about austerity.
0:21:17 > 0:21:23Her exact words about the Tories, about Labour, were austerity-lite.
0:21:23 > 0:21:28She insisted that Plaid Cymru offered something different.
0:21:28 > 0:21:31First, I think it is worth saying
0:21:31 > 0:21:36that this shift in terms of the constitution is good for them
0:21:36 > 0:21:38and for Wales.
0:21:38 > 0:21:40I think there is an economic crisis going on.
0:21:40 > 0:21:45And we need to do what we can, because jobs are important now.
0:21:45 > 0:21:47The question is, how do we create those jobs?
0:21:47 > 0:21:51That is the difference between us as parties.
0:21:51 > 0:21:52I think what happened in the conference
0:21:52 > 0:21:56was that some very sketchy ideas
0:21:56 > 0:22:00about the future of green energy in Wales were put forward.
0:22:00 > 0:22:03They're not sketchy.
0:22:03 > 0:22:10That is not so different from Ed Miliband and Ed Balls.
0:22:10 > 0:22:14Politicians don't like tying their hands years before an election
0:22:14 > 0:22:18because situations change, the details come closer to an election.
0:22:18 > 0:22:25But I think there is a naivety to the way they go about it.
0:22:25 > 0:22:31The fact that they want systems like Glas Cymru,
0:22:31 > 0:22:34or the system for how water is controlled....
0:22:34 > 0:22:41I like that, but the fact is that that is one way of doing things.
0:22:41 > 0:22:47But the way to grow the economy is through the private sector.
0:22:47 > 0:22:51But they don't talk about the private sector.
0:22:51 > 0:22:56I cannot believe this accusation of naivety.
0:22:56 > 0:22:58We have some of the best economic brains in Wales
0:22:58 > 0:23:03running our economic commission.
0:23:03 > 0:23:08To be fair, in the conference, there weren't many details
0:23:08 > 0:23:11about this new green deal.
0:23:11 > 0:23:15There were no details on co-ordinating skills
0:23:15 > 0:23:19from the public and private sectors to push for a new Welsh deal.
0:23:19 > 0:23:22Nobody could explain what that meant.
0:23:22 > 0:23:25These are the exact things, if we had three hours,
0:23:25 > 0:23:28we could talk a lot about them.
0:23:28 > 0:23:33But that is exactly what the economic commission is look at.
0:23:33 > 0:23:39And it is working out those details.
0:23:39 > 0:23:43I'm sure in two or three years,
0:23:43 > 0:23:48the party will have dealt with that issue.
0:23:48 > 0:23:55That is why things like the new green deal are important.
0:23:55 > 0:23:57That is how jobs are created.
0:23:57 > 0:24:02That is why regional banks are important.
0:24:02 > 0:24:05In a sentence what is the new green deal?
0:24:05 > 0:24:11Lots of investment in green co-operative projects.
0:24:11 > 0:24:17- Where will the money come from? - From regional banks, for example.
0:24:17 > 0:24:21We must leave it there. Thank you very much.
0:24:21 > 0:24:23That's all for tonight.
0:24:23 > 0:24:25We will be back at 10 o'clock next week.
0:24:25 > 0:24:27We hope to have your company then.
0:24:27 > 0:24:30We will be looking at the Liberal Democrat conference.
0:24:30 > 0:24:34And hopefully, the debate will be as lively next week.
0:24:34 > 0:24:35- Good night.- Good night.
0:24:41 > 0:24:42.