0:00:03 > 0:00:08and the opinion polls are like a horror show.
0:00:08 > 0:00:12Nick Clegg is hoping that the apology
0:00:12 > 0:00:14will mean that a new page can be turned.
0:00:14 > 0:00:20Two years on, the critics have been confounded.
0:00:20 > 0:00:25Our mettle has been tested in the toughest of circumstances
0:00:25 > 0:00:27and we haven't been found wanting.
0:00:27 > 0:00:30We have taken the difficult decisions to reduce the deficit
0:00:30 > 0:00:33by a quarter and have laid the foundations
0:00:33 > 0:00:36for a stronger and more balanced economy
0:00:36 > 0:00:39capable of delivering real and lasting growth.
0:00:39 > 0:00:44Not that being in Government has been easy so far.
0:00:44 > 0:00:48They failed to reform the House of Lords
0:00:48 > 0:00:52and have suffered significant losses in the by-elections.
0:00:52 > 0:00:57But some say that this isn't all doom and gloom.
0:00:57 > 0:01:00The experience of Government brings credibility,
0:01:00 > 0:01:05according to some. A good reason to be confident about the future.
0:01:05 > 0:01:10I think for the first time ever, the Lib Dems will have the right
0:01:10 > 0:01:14to say that we have influenced Government policy.
0:01:14 > 0:01:18As a Liberal, it was difficult to avoid the fact
0:01:18 > 0:01:23that people were saying it was a wasted vote.
0:01:23 > 0:01:27Now we can say that we do have experience in Government.
0:01:27 > 0:01:31I think in the end that will help the party.
0:01:31 > 0:01:37But some are worried that the future is looking like the past.
0:01:37 > 0:01:41We had hoped to do better, there's no doubt about that.
0:01:41 > 0:01:45In the late 60s, the Liberal Democrats only had one MP in Wales
0:01:45 > 0:01:49with Emlyn Hooson working to keep the flame alive.
0:01:49 > 0:01:52It's possible that the fate will be the same for the modern party
0:01:52 > 0:01:58after the next election but that might not be the end of the story.
0:01:58 > 0:02:03By 2015, I don't think that Labour or the Tories
0:02:03 > 0:02:09will win enough seats to form a Government on its own.
0:02:09 > 0:02:16But I hope what will happen now with the experience of 2010,
0:02:16 > 0:02:20I hope there will be more discussion,
0:02:20 > 0:02:25and I would like to see a multi-party Government.
0:02:25 > 0:02:30Labour, Liberal and Tory working together.
0:02:30 > 0:02:33It's possible that neither Labour or the Tories
0:02:33 > 0:02:35will have a majority in 2015.
0:02:35 > 0:02:38They might be trying to form a new coalition.
0:02:38 > 0:02:45If that happens, would Nick Clegg have to do more than apologise
0:02:45 > 0:02:49in order to stay in charge?
0:02:51 > 0:02:56Myrddin Edwards, we saw the late Emlyn Hooson there,
0:02:56 > 0:03:00Nick Clegg talked about "Marching towards the sound of gun fire."
0:03:00 > 0:03:03He also mentioned David Steele's words.
0:03:03 > 0:03:07It appears to me that your party has to dig deep
0:03:07 > 0:03:11to its roots in order to keep going at the moment.
0:03:11 > 0:03:16It is a very difficult situation for the Liberal Democrats at the moment.
0:03:16 > 0:03:22In his speech today, Nick Clegg said today we are doing right thing,
0:03:22 > 0:03:25we are on the right track.
0:03:25 > 0:03:28He was saying that Liberal Democrats should
0:03:28 > 0:03:32say on the doorstep that we are having an influence on things
0:03:32 > 0:03:35like income tax and on the green economy
0:03:35 > 0:03:38and creating apprenticeships.
0:03:38 > 0:03:41And giving money to children from poorer background.
0:03:41 > 0:03:45When we explain to people what we have been doing in Government
0:03:45 > 0:03:48people say fair enough, well done.
0:03:48 > 0:03:50That may be so,
0:03:50 > 0:03:56but the economy has forced you on to this path with the Conservatives.
0:03:56 > 0:04:01You can't change things really. The only way forward now is to cut back.
0:04:01 > 0:04:07The cutbacks, if that doesn't work, you are going to be punished.
0:04:07 > 0:04:10That's a good point.
0:04:10 > 0:04:14We were in a very difficult economic position in 2010.
0:04:14 > 0:04:17Labour's spending did not help.
0:04:17 > 0:04:19And the worldwide recession hasn't helped.
0:04:19 > 0:04:23Labour's overspending didn't help us.
0:04:23 > 0:04:26We went into a coalition with the Conservatives
0:04:26 > 0:04:33and we had to reduce the deficit.
0:04:33 > 0:04:36But it's true to say that 2015 will be difficult.
0:04:36 > 0:04:43Simon Thomas, you have been in a coalition Government in the past.
0:04:43 > 0:04:46Some say you lost your identity,
0:04:46 > 0:04:49what is your advice to the Liberal Democrats?
0:04:49 > 0:04:54I am sure they wouldn't want advice from me.
0:04:54 > 0:04:58What is your advice?
0:04:59 > 0:05:03My advice would be to write down in the agreement
0:05:03 > 0:05:07where you draw a line in the sand and not to cross those lines.
0:05:07 > 0:05:12They've had to fight for a year to save this story of regional pay
0:05:12 > 0:05:21coming to Wales, that was not in the agreement in the first place.
0:05:21 > 0:05:24But there has to be a compromise in a coalition.
0:05:24 > 0:05:27The Liberal Democrats could have done something a year ago.
0:05:27 > 0:05:31Yes, but you have to compromise in a coalition.
0:05:31 > 0:05:35There has to be compromise, but before you go into a coalition
0:05:35 > 0:05:38you have to draw the lines and not move them.
0:05:38 > 0:05:41The Liberal Democrats have not been clear
0:05:41 > 0:05:43enough on things like tuition fees.
0:05:43 > 0:05:47During the conference, they admitted they had not been strict enough
0:05:47 > 0:05:51on tuition fees during the agreement with the Conservatives.
0:05:51 > 0:05:56They have not provided a strong voice on the economy either.
0:05:56 > 0:06:00The economy isn't strong in Wales at present.
0:06:00 > 0:06:06Labour is in a tricky situation.
0:06:06 > 0:06:12We see Ed Balls on one side closing up to Vince Cable.
0:06:12 > 0:06:19But at the same time you are damming them for the economic policies.
0:06:19 > 0:06:23Are you hoping for a coalition next time?
0:06:23 > 0:06:27What's important for us is to follow our plans.
0:06:27 > 0:06:32We have to follow what we think is right.
0:06:32 > 0:06:38Our disappointment was that Nick Clegg doesn't have any understanding
0:06:38 > 0:06:41of how to improve the economic situation.
0:06:41 > 0:06:46We have given them so many ideas.
0:06:46 > 0:06:50We have suggested that we need a plan B
0:06:50 > 0:06:54and that we need a growth in the economy, but we don't see any of it.
0:06:54 > 0:06:56He's just following the Tories.
0:06:56 > 0:07:01The Liberal Democrats say they are doing things,
0:07:01 > 0:07:05they are trying to fight for things that will help the economy.
0:07:05 > 0:07:09A bank for small businesses etc.
0:07:09 > 0:07:12Surely you would welcome some of those things?
0:07:12 > 0:07:16I welcome the fact they want to help small businesses
0:07:16 > 0:07:19but we haven't seen that for two years.
0:07:19 > 0:07:23Tory backbenchers have been calling for more money
0:07:23 > 0:07:25for smaller businesses.
0:07:25 > 0:07:31Nick Clegg has promised something before the election on tuition fees,
0:07:31 > 0:07:36without any idea of how to deliver it.
0:07:36 > 0:07:42He didn't have the financial plan to follow it through.
0:07:42 > 0:07:47That's not true. Every party goes into the election
0:07:47 > 0:07:50saying we are going to win this election.
0:07:50 > 0:07:54You weren't expecting to win, that's the problem.
0:07:54 > 0:07:57We wanted to keep that policy but we had to compromise
0:07:57 > 0:08:01because two parties are in a coalition.
0:08:01 > 0:08:05Let's go back to the conference because the biggest applause today
0:08:05 > 0:08:07was when we heard Paddy Ashdown
0:08:07 > 0:08:11would play a key part in the next general election campaign.
0:08:11 > 0:08:14This man was getting close to Tony Blair,
0:08:14 > 0:08:18we know he is closer to Labour than the Conservatives.
0:08:18 > 0:08:23Are you preparing the way for a possible coalition with Labour?
0:08:23 > 0:08:26I wouldn't say that because Paddy Ashdown
0:08:26 > 0:08:32is an experienced politician. Everybody in the party loves him.
0:08:32 > 0:08:36He is a leader and if he will be chairing the campaign in 2015,
0:08:36 > 0:08:41people will think we've got somebody like Paddy Ashdown
0:08:41 > 0:08:47who will help us through this. People have faith in him.
0:08:47 > 0:08:51But a marriage with Labour would be possible?
0:08:51 > 0:08:55It's not for us or Labour or the Conservatives
0:08:55 > 0:08:58to decide who forms the Government.
0:08:58 > 0:09:02It's the people of Britain who decide when they go to the poll.
0:09:02 > 0:09:04It's not for us to make a deal before the election.
0:09:04 > 0:09:07It's an insult to the voters.
0:09:07 > 0:09:11The voters decide who forms the coalition.
0:09:11 > 0:09:14Let's look at what's happening on the ground.
0:09:14 > 0:09:17I don't want to concentrate on Ceredigion!
0:09:17 > 0:09:19Things are changing there!
0:09:19 > 0:09:24If we look at the condition of the party in Wales, Simon Thomas,
0:09:24 > 0:09:27do you think there is a danger that Plaid Cymru
0:09:27 > 0:09:32could have no representation in the Commons after the next election?
0:09:32 > 0:09:37I think it could be a danger if we had an election tomorrow
0:09:37 > 0:09:40but we have two years to go.
0:09:40 > 0:09:44My feeling, although I don't have evidence,
0:09:44 > 0:09:49is that half the support that was there for the Liberal Democrats,
0:09:49 > 0:09:55those protest votes have disappeared.
0:09:55 > 0:09:59They have gone. Nick Clegg has admitted that today.
0:09:59 > 0:10:04He said that they are a Government party now and not a protest party.
0:10:04 > 0:10:09And that's the problem, isn't it?
0:10:09 > 0:10:14If we look at Ceredigion, Cardiff and other seat,
0:10:14 > 0:10:20a lot of these seats have a lot of students in their univerisities
0:10:20 > 0:10:27and that is who Nick Clegg had to apologise to today.
0:10:27 > 0:10:30The students who are there in two and a half years time
0:10:30 > 0:10:33will be used to the new system.
0:10:33 > 0:10:37It's the students who have now left who had to accept the apology.
0:10:37 > 0:10:42That's a good point. We have more seats that in some university towns.
0:10:42 > 0:10:48Yes, but there are a lot of them. Bath is another one.
0:10:48 > 0:10:54Yes, that's true. Going back to the point Simon Thomas made,
0:10:54 > 0:11:00the Liberal Democrats will have to learn a lesson from Plaid Cymru,
0:11:00 > 0:11:04because Plaid Cymru was the younger partner in a coalition.
0:11:04 > 0:11:08But I don't think they sold the good things they did in Government.
0:11:08 > 0:11:11Nia Griffith, I don't expect to you sympathise
0:11:11 > 0:11:15with the Liberal Democrats but do you acknowledge
0:11:15 > 0:11:21that they are in power in a coalition that at a very difficult time,
0:11:21 > 0:11:24they have been unlucky with regard to the timing?
0:11:24 > 0:11:27If you can compare them to Plaid Cymru,
0:11:27 > 0:11:31Plaid Cymru has been very clear with us as Labour,
0:11:31 > 0:11:34they have said this is what we want, we want more devolution.
0:11:34 > 0:11:38We want some kind of referendum and something on the language.
0:11:38 > 0:11:40They have asked for that.
0:11:40 > 0:11:43As a Labour Party, it was difficult to form a coalition
0:11:43 > 0:11:50but we decided we could accept the measures on the table.
0:11:50 > 0:11:56It did not go against our principles.
0:11:56 > 0:12:02- Would you have them back as partners?- It's possible.
0:12:02 > 0:12:05It's up to the voters. But the fact is with the Liberal Democrats
0:12:05 > 0:12:10what's happened now is people have lost faith and confidence in them,
0:12:10 > 0:12:16but even worse than that, because they've made such a fiasco
0:12:16 > 0:12:21of what they have promised, it can damage every party.
0:12:21 > 0:12:27- There is less confidence, as a whole.- We have to move on.
0:12:27 > 0:12:31Some Assembly Members are continuing to try to ensure that all records
0:12:31 > 0:12:35of the debates taking place here are translated into Welsh.
0:12:35 > 0:12:38According to the Assembly Commission,
0:12:38 > 0:12:41spending £500,000 on the work would be unwise.
0:12:41 > 0:12:43Tonight, in a statement,
0:12:43 > 0:12:47the Welsh Commissioner has said it is important that
0:12:47 > 0:12:51the Assembly sets an example to other bodies and shows leadership.
0:12:51 > 0:12:53More from Arwyn Jones.
0:12:55 > 0:12:59I won't give you the history of the battle for the language,
0:12:59 > 0:13:03but it's fair to say that the past 50 years has seen
0:13:03 > 0:13:07a number of campaigns, some more peaceful than others.
0:13:07 > 0:13:10With the establishment of the Assembly,
0:13:10 > 0:13:14some believed that there would be a revolution, to an extent.
0:13:14 > 0:13:18But when the AMs discuss matters in the full session in the Chamber,
0:13:18 > 0:13:22there is a translator available if anyone speaks in Welsh,
0:13:22 > 0:13:24so other people understand them.
0:13:24 > 0:13:28But a row has been brewing, not regarding the simultaneous
0:13:28 > 0:13:33translation, but the written translation of the minutes.
0:13:33 > 0:13:36We're not talking about what takes place in the Chamber,
0:13:36 > 0:13:40but also the numerous committees.
0:13:40 > 0:13:45Following a report by a committee of AMs recommending
0:13:45 > 0:13:50the translation of all minutes, there has been a mixed response.
0:13:50 > 0:13:53It's unlikely that will now happen.
0:13:53 > 0:13:56The body responsible for administering the Assembly,
0:13:56 > 0:14:00the Commission, is currently deciding what sort of language plan is needed
0:14:00 > 0:14:04and the man responsible for that
0:14:04 > 0:14:08appeared on this programme in June.
0:14:08 > 0:14:11The costs would be between £400,000 to £600,000,
0:14:11 > 0:14:14so around half a million pounds.
0:14:14 > 0:14:16And I think in that context, people have asked
0:14:16 > 0:14:18whether it is a wise investment.
0:14:18 > 0:14:21Does it make the Welsh language equal?
0:14:21 > 0:14:23Does it promote the use of the Welsh language?
0:14:23 > 0:14:26And the conclusion I have reached and I think many
0:14:26 > 0:14:29of my colleagues have also reached is that it does nothing
0:14:29 > 0:14:32to promote the use of the Welsh language in this place.
0:14:32 > 0:14:35We should be looking at spending on the Welsh language in the same way
0:14:35 > 0:14:37we look at spending on English.
0:14:37 > 0:14:41No-one has a problem with the cost of publishing in English,
0:14:41 > 0:14:45and seeing as the Welsh language is an official language,
0:14:45 > 0:14:47that is the meaning of the language measure we have.
0:14:47 > 0:14:50That is what being a bilingual country means,
0:14:50 > 0:14:52both languages are treated equally.
0:14:52 > 0:14:56Again, it comes down to the Assembly setting an example.
0:14:56 > 0:15:02Plaid Cymru's calls for all committee minutes to be translated have been dropped.
0:15:02 > 0:15:05They say that written translations are only required
0:15:05 > 0:15:10for the publication of ministers' work and discussing legislation.
0:15:10 > 0:15:14I don't think it is necessarily because of the cost.
0:15:14 > 0:15:18I think it is something that we need to look at, as far as,
0:15:18 > 0:15:21will it work to translate legislation?
0:15:21 > 0:15:26I'm flexible enough to return to the Commission and say no,
0:15:26 > 0:15:29there is more demand for things to be translated.
0:15:29 > 0:15:34The Lib Dems continue to call for all debates to be translated.
0:15:34 > 0:15:38But how important is the Assembly's language policy?
0:15:38 > 0:15:43While supporting the need to promote bilingualism, some believe
0:15:43 > 0:15:49that must be done on a national level, rather than in the Chamber.
0:15:49 > 0:15:52It's important that people are using the Welsh language.
0:15:52 > 0:15:57What I am seeing is that it is not being used as it should.
0:15:57 > 0:16:01And that includes people who have received a high level of education.
0:16:01 > 0:16:05So the question I must ask within our company
0:16:05 > 0:16:10is if I have £50,000, do I spend that on translating a website
0:16:10 > 0:16:14or do I spend in the community to promote the use of Welsh?
0:16:14 > 0:16:19And I would choose to spend that money in the community.
0:16:19 > 0:16:21We have made a number of interview requests
0:16:21 > 0:16:25to the Welsh Commissioner, but they have been refused.
0:16:25 > 0:16:30In a statement, Meri Huws said that it was important
0:16:30 > 0:16:33that the Welsh National Assembly set an example for other bodies
0:16:33 > 0:16:37and that it shows leadership regarding Welsh.
0:16:37 > 0:16:38During the battle for the language,
0:16:38 > 0:16:43there have been a number of victories, but if anyone thought
0:16:43 > 0:16:49that the battle was over, then maybe it's time to reconsider.
0:16:49 > 0:16:54Simon Thomas, surely Plaid Cymru want everything said here
0:16:54 > 0:16:56to be recorded in Welsh.
0:16:56 > 0:17:00What Plaid Cymru want to see is more use of the language here
0:17:00 > 0:17:04and more support for those of us who do use Welsh here.
0:17:04 > 0:17:07Maybe I should give you an example.
0:17:07 > 0:17:11Next week, the Children's Commissioner is attending
0:17:11 > 0:17:14a committee on which I sit. He will present a report in English.
0:17:14 > 0:17:17The papers for that meeting, a briefing paper for me
0:17:17 > 0:17:21to prepare for the meeting, will be in English.
0:17:21 > 0:17:25But the possible questions will be translated into Welsh.
0:17:25 > 0:17:26That is of no use to me.
0:17:26 > 0:17:30I would like to see the briefing papers to be in Welsh so that we can
0:17:30 > 0:17:34prepare for the meeting in Welsh, ask questions in Welsh and so on.
0:17:34 > 0:17:36I don't see the point...
0:17:36 > 0:17:38If we are talking about prioritising
0:17:38 > 0:17:42and expanding the use of Welsh here, I want resources being spent
0:17:42 > 0:17:46on staff and support to prepare that material to help me
0:17:46 > 0:17:49do my work here in Welsh, rather than after the event,
0:17:49 > 0:17:53translating what was said by the Commissioner in English into Welsh.
0:17:53 > 0:17:56That is of little use to anyone.
0:17:56 > 0:18:00I want to be able to use Welsh before I meet the Commissioner.
0:18:00 > 0:18:04- Why not fight for everything in Welsh?- I think we do want to see that happen
0:18:04 > 0:18:08because it is clear in the measure itself when it becomes
0:18:08 > 0:18:13legislation that the two languages are to be treated equally.
0:18:13 > 0:18:15Everything is available in English.
0:18:15 > 0:18:18Yes, and eventually everything should be available in Welsh.
0:18:18 > 0:18:21But technology is going to change.
0:18:21 > 0:18:23That may enable it to be easier in the long term.
0:18:23 > 0:18:27But the practical question is that you need a plan to work
0:18:27 > 0:18:32towards that aim and I want to be clear now that the plan
0:18:32 > 0:18:36I wish to see is one that supports us and our work in committee,
0:18:36 > 0:18:40our work in the Chamber, rather than translating after the event,
0:18:40 > 0:18:42which doesn't really help the process of scrutinising
0:18:42 > 0:18:45- democracy here. - It sometimes seems to me
0:18:45 > 0:18:48that there are two things working against each other here.
0:18:48 > 0:18:51You have one argument saying everything should naturally
0:18:51 > 0:18:55be in Welsh, it is available in English, that's how it should be.
0:18:55 > 0:18:58But also there is the argument we heard from Ann Beynon,
0:18:58 > 0:19:03half a million is a lot of money. Think what the language enterprises could do with that money.
0:19:03 > 0:19:09Imagine what use the Urdd Eisteddfod could make of that money.
0:19:09 > 0:19:11I know it's different budgets,
0:19:11 > 0:19:16but people would say there are more important priorities.
0:19:16 > 0:19:20That is a good question, but there is always a price on democracy
0:19:20 > 0:19:25and the way that people get access to what is happening in this place.
0:19:25 > 0:19:29It costs money to make a freedom of information request
0:19:29 > 0:19:31and ask questions.
0:19:31 > 0:19:34Everything has a price.
0:19:34 > 0:19:38I think it is only fair that if this place legislates
0:19:38 > 0:19:41and tells businesses that they have to provide Welsh-medium
0:19:41 > 0:19:44services, then...
0:19:44 > 0:19:48I agree with Meri Huws. We must set an example here.
0:19:48 > 0:19:52What about setting an example, Nia Griffith?
0:19:52 > 0:19:56How can this place fail to do everything in Welsh
0:19:56 > 0:19:58while expecting large companies to do so?
0:19:58 > 0:20:02Why can't Tesco say - we'll use Welsh at the entrance,
0:20:02 > 0:20:03but the toilets are English?
0:20:03 > 0:20:07The Assembly must decide what its priorities are.
0:20:07 > 0:20:13But I think it is impossible to do everything, especially when
0:20:13 > 0:20:19you have a lot of written evidence from all kinds of people, but what
0:20:19 > 0:20:23is even more important is to have an opportunity to use the language.
0:20:23 > 0:20:25That is what is important,
0:20:25 > 0:20:28for people to see what is going on at the Assembly.
0:20:28 > 0:20:30If people are talking,
0:20:30 > 0:20:34then they must have the opportunity to speak Welsh.
0:20:34 > 0:20:36And have help to do so.
0:20:36 > 0:20:40If they can have something prepared in Welsh, that can help.
0:20:40 > 0:20:43It is also important that people in our constituencies
0:20:43 > 0:20:47can correspond with their AMs in Welsh.
0:20:47 > 0:20:49And get a response in Welsh.
0:20:49 > 0:20:53Myrddin, does everything need to be recorded in English
0:20:53 > 0:20:56these days, with the technology that we have?
0:20:56 > 0:20:59Yes, I think so.
0:20:59 > 0:21:03It's important to see what Simon has said regarding education
0:21:03 > 0:21:04a fortnight ago.
0:21:04 > 0:21:09- Or a month or a year ago.- The internet isn't good enough?- Not yet.
0:21:09 > 0:21:13I would like to see video and I think that is what Dafydd Elis Thomas was talking about.
0:21:13 > 0:21:14But we don't yet have the technology.
0:21:14 > 0:21:18It's important we keep a record. It's very important.
0:21:18 > 0:21:21I think it's also important if we take these steps towards
0:21:21 > 0:21:25full equality between the languages that we start where it makes
0:21:25 > 0:21:27a difference, that we help this process.
0:21:27 > 0:21:30Legislation, for example. We legislate here now.
0:21:30 > 0:21:34I strongly believe that Plaid Cymru would want to see legislation
0:21:34 > 0:21:36recorded fully bilingually.
0:21:36 > 0:21:38The wording is important.
0:21:38 > 0:21:41If there is a legal challenge,
0:21:41 > 0:21:46both texts would be compared side by side.
0:21:46 > 0:21:52- So it's important we use both languages.- Right, thank you.
0:21:52 > 0:21:55That is all for tonight. We will be back at the same time next week.
0:21:55 > 0:21:57I hope you can join us then.
0:21:57 > 0:22:01We will be concentrating on the Labour Annual Conference.
0:22:01 > 0:22:04- Until next week, good night. - Good night.