0:00:20 > 0:00:23Good evening. Welcome to the Bay. Tonight we're looking at money.
0:00:23 > 0:00:27The Welsh government has the right to borrow more in future.
0:00:27 > 0:00:32But at what price? And as the Governor of the Bank of England and his team visit Wales,
0:00:32 > 0:00:36what is the forecast for our economy?
0:00:36 > 0:00:42Tonight we are joined by Ieuan Wyn Jones, Finance Spokesman and former Plaid Cymru leader in the Assembly,
0:00:42 > 0:00:46Nick Bennett, Chief Executive of Community Housing Cymru Group
0:00:46 > 0:00:49and former member of the All Wales Convention,
0:00:49 > 0:00:53and Tory MP for Maldwyn, Glyn Davies is in our Westminster studio. Welcome, everybody.
0:00:53 > 0:00:58- Thank you.- It's not often that governments of different political colours
0:00:58 > 0:01:04scratch each other's backs, but in a joint announcement today the British and Welsh government
0:01:04 > 0:01:08has outlined changes to the way this country will be financed.
0:01:08 > 0:01:12They have agreed in principle to allow Welsh ministers to borrow money
0:01:12 > 0:01:16to pay for things like building roads.
0:01:16 > 0:01:21In exchange, the ministers in Cardiff Bay will be responsible for certain taxes,
0:01:21 > 0:01:27like stamp duty, but at a time when debt is a problem for governments worldwide,
0:01:27 > 0:01:33is this wise? A question for our political correspondent Aled ap Dafydd.
0:01:35 > 0:01:38When members of the Welsh and UK governments appear
0:01:38 > 0:01:41side-by-side in more than one location at the same day,
0:01:41 > 0:01:45usually a bargain has been struck - and this is it.
0:01:45 > 0:01:48Giving the Welsh government the right to borrow
0:01:48 > 0:01:51money from the British government.
0:01:51 > 0:01:57A kind of credit card belonging to Carwyn Jones in order to raise a bigger budget.
0:03:37 > 0:03:43Between 2011 and 2015 The Welsh government will see a drop of 1.9 billion in her budget.
0:03:43 > 0:03:48This means a budget cut of 25%.
0:03:48 > 0:03:54It helps us to create the best network and structure for Wales.
0:03:54 > 0:03:56Of course, if you borrow money, it has to be paid back.
0:03:56 > 0:03:59We understand that, so you have to be careful in the way you do it.
0:05:59 > 0:06:03But it means we can develop, for instance, new transport plans in Wales
0:06:03 > 0:06:06that wouldn't have happened otherwise.
0:06:06 > 0:06:10Because at the moment, the situation is that England, Scotland and Northern Ireland
0:06:10 > 0:06:14can borrow money, but Wales can't.
0:06:14 > 0:06:17Following this announcement, Wales is in the same position
0:06:17 > 0:06:20as Northern Ireland and Scotland.
0:06:20 > 0:06:28But do you accept the deal on offered - that is, in return for these money-borrowing powers,
0:06:28 > 0:06:32you have to take responsibility for raising some of your own taxes.
0:06:32 > 0:06:35Yes, we understand that, and we state that publicly.
0:06:35 > 0:06:38There are some taxes we'd be happy to take on, and some we wouldn't.
0:06:38 > 0:06:40And income tax is one of them?
0:06:40 > 0:06:44Our policy is that we wouldn't go after income tax -
0:06:44 > 0:06:47there are several problems with income tax.
0:06:47 > 0:06:51For instance, we know at the moment that we are not being financed at the level we should be.
0:06:51 > 0:06:55If we took income tax on now, that would lock it into the system for ever.
0:06:55 > 0:07:01The scheme to upgrade the M4 by the Brynglas tunnels would cost £500 million.
0:07:01 > 0:07:06But investing in infrastructure is the key, say business leaders,
0:07:06 > 0:07:09to injecting life into the economy.
0:07:09 > 0:07:15With shops closing, less money circulating on the high street, and wages being frozen,
0:07:15 > 0:07:21there is a warning the money the Government is borrowing should be spent responsibly.
0:07:21 > 0:07:25It's important this money is used to build an infrastructure
0:07:25 > 0:07:28to ensure we have a structure in the economy
0:07:28 > 0:07:34to ensure businesses can come into Wales and that those businesses already hear can flourish
0:07:34 > 0:07:38and to ensure that that essential structure happens in the Welsh economy.
0:07:38 > 0:07:47This money shouldn't be used just to put more money in hospitals and education.
0:07:47 > 0:07:50It's important this money works for the economy.
0:07:50 > 0:07:55Any loans, of course, have to be repaid.
0:07:55 > 0:08:00Could you weigh that for me, please?
0:08:00 > 0:08:03- £2,000.- Thank you.
0:08:03 > 0:08:12But of course, Carwyn Jones doesn't have any gold hiding under his desk that can be used as a guarantee.
0:08:12 > 0:08:16So the Welsh Government is keen to see money coming in
0:08:16 > 0:08:22by taking responsibility for taxes like stamp duty and taxes for air passengers.
0:08:22 > 0:08:27They're quite important taxes, but they're not like income tax,
0:08:27 > 0:08:33which generates a substantial proportion of income for the Treasury.
0:08:33 > 0:08:36So specific taxes.
0:08:36 > 0:08:42We'll wait and see the capacity and the ability to raise money from these sources,
0:08:42 > 0:08:48but they will be additional to those coming from the Barnett formula from Westminster.
0:08:48 > 0:08:54Today's announcement by the Treasury and the Welsh Government's Finance Minister
0:08:54 > 0:08:56has taken the wind out of the sails of the commission
0:08:56 > 0:08:59which is looking at the way Wales is financed.
0:08:59 > 0:09:03Their report comes out next month. There's just one question left to be answered.
0:09:03 > 0:09:09Will these people recommend decentralising responsibility for income tax?
0:09:09 > 0:09:13That is something that would certainly upset the consensus seen today.
0:09:15 > 0:09:18Glyn Davies, a historic agreement according to Danny Alexander,
0:09:19 > 0:09:22but how much of an agreement was there?
0:09:22 > 0:09:25They're agreeing to discuss financing Wales.
0:09:25 > 0:09:31An agreement to have some sort of loan system in place sometime in the future.
0:09:31 > 0:09:36In reality, it's just an agreement to continue talking, isn't it?
0:09:36 > 0:09:40We know that today is the first step.
0:09:40 > 0:09:43The next step is what the Silk Commission will say next month.
0:09:43 > 0:09:47But what's important is that the government here in Westminster
0:09:47 > 0:09:52and the government in Cardiff agree to the way to talk.
0:09:52 > 0:09:53That's what's important.
0:09:53 > 0:09:58We've seen one side not working and criticising the other,
0:09:58 > 0:10:00that has happened.
0:10:00 > 0:10:02We know that the way forward is complicated,
0:10:02 > 0:10:06but both sides have come together today.
0:10:06 > 0:10:09If we accept that it's a first step,
0:10:09 > 0:10:11that agreement is what matters to me.
0:10:11 > 0:10:14I seems to me that the
0:10:14 > 0:10:17Welsh government has backed down on one important point -
0:10:17 > 0:10:24that the power to borrow is tied to accepting responsibility for taxes.
0:10:24 > 0:10:27As far as I know, Carwyn Jones didn't want that.
0:10:27 > 0:10:33That's a victory for you at that end of the M4, isn't it?
0:10:33 > 0:10:37I don't want to look at in terms of victory and losing.
0:10:37 > 0:10:40Both sides have come together to talk.
0:10:40 > 0:10:43Of course, before reaching an agreement,
0:10:43 > 0:10:47both sides want a little bit more, and a bit of compromise.
0:10:47 > 0:10:51When both sides have agreed on the way forward,
0:10:51 > 0:10:54and I think because they've reached an agreement
0:10:54 > 0:10:57That's the reason that today is very important, I think.
0:10:57 > 0:11:00But we have to look upon today as a first step.
0:11:00 > 0:11:04There's no point regarding it as the conclusion.
0:11:04 > 0:11:09It's the first step, and the nest step is the Silk Commission.
0:11:09 > 0:11:11Then greater steps will follow.
0:11:11 > 0:11:13Ieuan Wyn Jones,
0:11:13 > 0:11:17you said in the Chamber today that you were disgusted with this
0:11:17 > 0:11:20agreement and that you would never put your name to it. Why?
0:11:20 > 0:11:24Because it isn't an agreement, as Glyn has acknowledged. He said it's a first step.
0:11:24 > 0:11:27It was decided right at the start,
0:11:27 > 0:11:31when the Silk Commission was established, that these talks
0:11:31 > 0:11:34and the right to borrow and the Barnett reforms would be separate.
0:11:34 > 0:11:38Carwyn Jones insisted that they should be completely separate.
0:11:38 > 0:11:42He thought he could get an agreement on those two things.
0:11:42 > 0:11:47All he's had, as Vaughan explained, is an agreement to discuss further.
0:11:47 > 0:11:49There is no deal here. We don't know.
0:11:49 > 0:11:52But signing is the first step. This is about principles.
0:11:52 > 0:11:57But that's not how Carwyn Jones sold it. He sold it as 'settling on an agreement that's going to
0:11:57 > 0:12:02give Wales borrowing powers, and I'm going to get the Barnett reforms.'
0:12:02 > 0:12:04Neither of those things has happened.
0:12:04 > 0:12:07Maybe the Barnett reform won't happen immediately, but there is more to come, Glyn Davies said.
0:12:07 > 0:12:09That's not the point.
0:12:09 > 0:12:13The point is that the Assembly Government sold this saying there was a deal.
0:12:13 > 0:12:16There is no deal. I think they've let Wales down.
0:12:16 > 0:12:18What they should have done, at least,
0:12:18 > 0:12:23was to give us a framework for the borrowing powers, for instance.
0:12:23 > 0:12:27We don't know that. We don't know when they'll be introduced. We don't know the sum.
0:12:27 > 0:12:31All we know is that the Treasury has won everything in this deal.
0:12:31 > 0:12:35Can I just ask you one thing? I don't know if I understand properly.
0:12:35 > 0:12:39It's not clear to me whether they're talking about borrowing powers
0:12:39 > 0:12:45which is worth pound-for-pound and taxable value.
0:12:45 > 0:12:49It seems to me that the kind of taxes Carwyn Jones is talking about,
0:12:49 > 0:12:55airport taxes and so on, would not lead to much borrowing power at all.
0:12:55 > 0:12:59Quite a substantial tax would need to be transferred.
0:12:59 > 0:13:03To make it work the way the Treasury suggest, you have to be talking
0:13:03 > 0:13:08about transferring responsibility for income tax.
0:13:08 > 0:13:11The kinds of taxes they're talking about, stamp duty and so on,
0:13:11 > 0:13:14raise hardly anything, as we heard on the item.
0:13:14 > 0:13:15You have to have the powers.
0:13:15 > 0:13:17If you're going to combine the two,
0:13:17 > 0:13:21and I don't think that's necessary, but then the only way to do it
0:13:21 > 0:13:25is to transfer responsibility for income tax.
0:13:25 > 0:13:27I think, from what I've heard Carwyn Jones saying,
0:13:27 > 0:13:29he accepts that by now, too.
0:13:29 > 0:13:32Nick Bennett, something we often discuss on this programme
0:13:32 > 0:13:38is that this place often has enough power but not enough responsibility.
0:13:38 > 0:13:42This changes that, doesn't it, if the power to raise taxes comes here?
0:13:42 > 0:13:44That changes the balance.
0:13:44 > 0:13:49Yes, but today we've agreed to try
0:13:49 > 0:13:53and move on and reach a proper agreement. It's significant,
0:13:53 > 0:13:59especially if we consider that the Treasury is acknowledging for the first time
0:13:59 > 0:14:03that Wales has been squeezed by the Barnett Formula. That's crucial.
0:14:03 > 0:14:06I think in the next year or two we'll see some kind of
0:14:06 > 0:14:10three-dimensional chess when we talk about borrowing powers,
0:14:10 > 0:14:15taxes, and the Barnett reforms.
0:14:15 > 0:14:18I can't see that happening until the referendum in Scotland is out of the way.
0:14:18 > 0:14:23I think it's completely unrealistic to think we'd get any deal
0:14:23 > 0:14:28regarding the Barnett formula before we know the outcome in Scotland.
0:14:28 > 0:14:32But a Barnett floor was possible, wasn't it?
0:14:32 > 0:14:35Now Nick is saying that the future of Wales depends on what's
0:14:35 > 0:14:37happening in Scotland.
0:14:37 > 0:14:40In fact, our case should stand on its own merits.
0:14:40 > 0:14:44The Welsh government should be fighting for the best for Wales,
0:14:44 > 0:14:47not for the second bargain, dependent upon what happens in Scotland.
0:14:47 > 0:14:51Glyn Davies, some academics have responded by saying this
0:14:51 > 0:14:54isn't the time to encourage people to borrow.
0:14:54 > 0:14:57Your government in London doesn't want to borrow right now
0:14:57 > 0:14:59and warns against that.
0:14:59 > 0:15:02Is it a good time to borrow in the present climate?
0:15:02 > 0:15:07That's a matter for the Assembly Government, of course.
0:15:07 > 0:15:11But many people in Westminster in the opposition parties
0:15:11 > 0:15:16are trying to persuade this government to borrow more.
0:15:16 > 0:15:19The Chancellor doesn't want to do so at the moment -
0:15:19 > 0:15:22he's trying to deal with the deficit on the loans.
0:15:22 > 0:15:25But if he gives a bit more responsibility to
0:15:25 > 0:15:29the Assembly Government in Cardiff, it's a matter for them.
0:15:29 > 0:15:34I don't want to say if it's a good idea or not. I know what I think.
0:15:34 > 0:15:39Whatever the government in London do, I support the policy here.
0:15:39 > 0:15:43But I don't want to say exactly what the government in Cardiff should do.
0:15:43 > 0:15:48- Nick, can I raise something... - Well, to answer that question, I think it's a perfect time
0:15:48 > 0:15:50for the Welsh government to start borrowing.
0:15:50 > 0:15:53We don't have the costs that Northern Ireland nor Scotland have, because
0:15:53 > 0:15:57they've borrowed so much more than we have during the past few years.
0:15:57 > 0:16:02- We need that expenditure. - What if interest rates go up?
0:16:02 > 0:16:05Whatever happens with interest rates, you have to ensure you have plans
0:16:05 > 0:16:08for the future and we have to plan for that.
0:16:08 > 0:16:12But going back to Ieuan's point, fair play,
0:16:12 > 0:16:14we have to accept the world as it is.
0:16:14 > 0:16:16Nobody, and certainly nobody in the Treasury,
0:16:16 > 0:16:18with a Scottish constituency,
0:16:18 > 0:16:23can offer Wales something that can't be given to Scotland at the moment
0:16:23 > 0:16:25- not this side of the referendum.
0:16:25 > 0:16:27So to some extent, nationalism is stopping us
0:16:27 > 0:16:31from having a system and a fair deal throughout Britain.
0:16:31 > 0:16:36Let me ask you something else.
0:16:36 > 0:16:39Have we reached a rather strange political system here,
0:16:39 > 0:16:43where the Westminster government, the Tories
0:16:43 > 0:16:49and the Liberal Democrats, seem as though they're keen to give
0:16:49 > 0:16:54more power to Cardiff than a Labour government in Cardiff wants.
0:16:55 > 0:16:59Well, it was very interesting to see the three parties coming
0:16:59 > 0:17:02together today and agreeing to the principles and I'm sure that it
0:17:02 > 0:17:09gives Ieuan and his party the perfect opportunity to say fine, we
0:17:09 > 0:17:13welcome this potential, but we want to ensure that you're accountable.
0:17:13 > 0:17:17That means that we see a deal within the next few years that works
0:17:17 > 0:17:19with regard to how much Wales can borrow,
0:17:19 > 0:17:23are we going to get the same level as Scotland, how do we raise taxes,
0:17:23 > 0:17:27is that sustainable, and of course, will we get a new formula
0:17:27 > 0:17:32with a floor that ensure Wales isn't squeezed in future
0:17:32 > 0:17:37and that we have a structure that reflects a social and economic need.
0:17:37 > 0:17:40If I thought that that had happened in the agreement today,
0:17:40 > 0:17:41I'd have welcomed it.
0:17:41 > 0:17:46But what the Treasury has said is that when we consider
0:17:46 > 0:17:51the next step to finance Wales in about two years, we'll look
0:17:51 > 0:17:55to see if there's anything we can do - without any promise whatsoever.
0:17:57 > 0:17:58It does open a door,
0:17:58 > 0:18:01doesn't it - in the same way that a head of department
0:18:01 > 0:18:06in Whitehall can go in and argue his case before the Treasury.
0:18:06 > 0:18:08It gives the Welsh Government the right to do that
0:18:08 > 0:18:12and say we don't have to follow the formula to the letter.
0:18:12 > 0:18:17The only thing I would say... Let me be clear about this.
0:18:17 > 0:18:24What Carwyn Jones said is that he would be willing to accept
0:18:24 > 0:18:27borrowing powers as seen in Scotland.
0:18:27 > 0:18:29That's not happening.
0:18:29 > 0:18:32Secondly, he said he wanted a Barnett Formula
0:18:32 > 0:18:36and that hasn't happened.
0:18:36 > 0:18:40What I'm asking for is that when the money starts coming in,
0:18:40 > 0:18:47and I accept the point Nick is making, that it's not working,
0:18:47 > 0:18:55but I want to know where the formula is being set.
0:18:55 > 0:19:01- Nick can't tell me that.- If we had that now, we would lose money.
0:19:01 > 0:19:06The point is, this is where we are now.
0:19:06 > 0:19:12If we had the Barnett Formula now, I thinks we would lose money.
0:19:12 > 0:19:16Now is the perfect time for the Barnett Formula.
0:19:16 > 0:19:20What we need is assurance for two years' time.
0:19:20 > 0:19:25Glyn Davies, what if Carwyn Jones says he doesn't want the income tax.
0:19:25 > 0:19:30We'll have the smaller taxes like stamp duty, what will happen then?
0:19:30 > 0:19:36Well, Vaughan mentioned earlier that some MPs like myself
0:19:36 > 0:19:42would like more powers for the Assembly
0:19:42 > 0:19:46and more accountability.
0:19:46 > 0:19:49I'm very happy to see income tax.
0:19:52 > 0:19:58We'll have to wait for the Silk Commission.
0:19:58 > 0:20:03It's very important. Today is the first step.
0:20:03 > 0:20:06I think that the next step is very important.
0:20:06 > 0:20:11We'll have to see how it works together.
0:20:13 > 0:20:16Thank you. We must move on.
0:20:16 > 0:20:20The latest GDP figures are likely to suggest
0:20:20 > 0:20:23that the economy is slowly improving.
0:20:23 > 0:20:26David Cameron suggested that,
0:20:26 > 0:20:30although he could be in trouble for saying so.
0:20:30 > 0:20:34On a two-day visit to Wales, the Governor of the Bank of England,
0:20:34 > 0:20:39warned that the economy here remains fragile.
0:20:39 > 0:20:43Recovery and rebalancing of our economy
0:20:43 > 0:20:47remain the principle challenges of economic policy.
0:20:47 > 0:20:49Here in Wales,
0:20:49 > 0:20:52despite impressive improvements to the infrastructure,
0:20:52 > 0:20:56not least the remarkable regeneration of Cardiff Bay
0:20:56 > 0:20:59and the magnificent monument to Welsh culture
0:20:59 > 0:21:01in this Millennium Centre.
0:21:01 > 0:21:04Your economy too is suffering with total production
0:21:04 > 0:21:06well below its peak in 2007.
0:21:06 > 0:21:11Sir Mervyn King last night in Cardiff last night.
0:21:11 > 0:21:14Ieuan Wyn Jones, David Cameron in Westminster today
0:21:14 > 0:21:17suggested that there was good news on the way.
0:21:17 > 0:21:20He's seen these GDP figures, but he can't tell us anything.
0:21:20 > 0:21:22Were you able to see them as a Minister?
0:21:22 > 0:21:25We saw some figures, of course,
0:21:25 > 0:21:29but on condition you didn't mention their contents.
0:21:29 > 0:21:33- You weren't a naughty boy, then? - A naughty boy?
0:21:33 > 0:21:38Can you see any signs of improvement?
0:21:38 > 0:21:42I think there are some good signs.
0:21:42 > 0:21:45We all know that the economy has shrunk this year,
0:21:45 > 0:21:50but the final quarter will show some growth,
0:21:50 > 0:21:53but we're in a difficult position.
0:21:53 > 0:21:57I think Nick is right.
0:21:57 > 0:22:01We spoke earlier of borrowing money
0:22:01 > 0:22:04so that the economy can move forward.
0:22:04 > 0:22:08That's all the Welsh Government can do.
0:22:08 > 0:22:12Borrow money to build hospitals and schools
0:22:12 > 0:22:14and make sure the jobs are created
0:22:14 > 0:22:18that's what the Government must do.
0:22:18 > 0:22:21I don't want to go back over old ground
0:22:21 > 0:22:26but talking about those borrowing powers making any impact
0:22:26 > 0:22:29in the future, is complete nonsense.
0:22:29 > 0:22:34This is the first step. There's nothing the Government here can do
0:22:34 > 0:22:37that they're not already doing.
0:22:37 > 0:22:41There is. Even if we get these powers from the Treasury,
0:22:41 > 0:22:43it won't be enough.
0:22:43 > 0:22:48We're losing hundreds of millions. We need that money.
0:22:48 > 0:22:52I'm representing housing associations
0:22:52 > 0:22:58that have borrowed over a billion-and-a-half.
0:22:58 > 0:23:03So should the Welsh Government be pressing on local authorities
0:23:03 > 0:23:08and bodies like housing associations and so on to invest?
0:23:08 > 0:23:14It has been happening, there was an agreement between local government
0:23:14 > 0:23:17and Westminster to ensure further spending.
0:23:17 > 0:23:20But there is potential for us to do so much more,
0:23:20 > 0:23:26and I think it returns to priorities and moving forward.
0:23:26 > 0:23:32Glyn Davies, your Government will be delighted
0:23:32 > 0:23:36if David Cameron can stand up tomorrow
0:23:36 > 0:23:39and say that the recession is over,
0:23:39 > 0:23:43but isn't it some kind of post-Olympics bounce?
0:23:43 > 0:23:49It's temporary, isn't it?
0:23:49 > 0:23:52I don't know what David Cameron will be saying tomorrow,
0:23:52 > 0:23:57but what I'm hoping is that it will be an improved situation,
0:23:57 > 0:24:02but I don't think he'll be saying that the recession is over
0:24:02 > 0:24:04and talking about green shoots.
0:24:04 > 0:24:09Those are dangerous words, but what I want to see is things improving
0:24:09 > 0:24:13and moving forward, and that's what I expect.
0:24:13 > 0:24:15I don't know how much it is moving forward.
0:24:15 > 0:24:19I've seen what is in the papers, and hopefully it is.
0:24:19 > 0:24:24We've seen a lot of good new jobs being created, many in Wales.
0:24:24 > 0:24:27Things have changed. Let's wait till tomorrow.
0:24:27 > 0:24:32Germany is often held up as a special model.
0:24:32 > 0:24:34There is a slide there.
0:24:34 > 0:24:41You could argue that George Osborne's plan is starting to work.
0:24:41 > 0:24:43I wouldn't say that.
0:24:43 > 0:24:47On the whole, unemployment of young people in Wales is horrific.
0:24:47 > 0:24:50We haven't seen figures like this since the '80s.
0:24:50 > 0:24:54I know some new jobs have been created.
0:24:54 > 0:24:58We know employers find it difficult.
0:24:58 > 0:25:02We're starting to see public sector jobs going in Wales.
0:25:02 > 0:25:08It is an awful situation. It is a difficult situation.
0:25:08 > 0:25:12But what we need to do is use the powers the Welsh Government
0:25:12 > 0:25:14has to do what they can.
0:25:14 > 0:25:18But we'd hope that Westminster would change their course.
0:25:18 > 0:25:23Wales is a small boat, and so is the UK as far as that,
0:25:23 > 0:25:27and we're travelling through stormy waters.
0:25:27 > 0:25:32The Chinese economy is slowing down. There are question marks over India.
0:25:32 > 0:25:35We don't know what's happening under the euro.
0:25:35 > 0:25:41No-one can be sure what needs to be done.
0:25:41 > 0:25:45No. I've said that before. There are two types of economists.
0:25:45 > 0:25:49Economists who don't understand economics
0:25:49 > 0:25:52and those who know they don't understand economics.
0:25:52 > 0:25:57We have seen odd figures. GDP falling. Jobs have been created.
0:25:57 > 0:26:01But there are jobs being created. 50,000 last week.
0:26:01 > 0:26:05I hope we will see growth.
0:26:05 > 0:26:09The IMF message was the most difficult to swallow.
0:26:09 > 0:26:14Generally and internationally we need a plan B.
0:26:14 > 0:26:19We have seen that austerity doesn't work in the end.
0:26:19 > 0:26:24we don't know what some of these figures mean.
0:26:24 > 0:26:28We've seen an increase in the number of businesses,
0:26:28 > 0:26:32but are those people with no other choice?
0:26:32 > 0:26:38The reality is the economy isn't something that's static.
0:26:38 > 0:26:41It produces new businesses all the time.
0:26:41 > 0:26:45The problem is, if you're losing more than you're establishing,
0:26:45 > 0:26:48you're in trouble.
0:26:48 > 0:26:52The economy is always shifting. More jobs are being created,
0:26:52 > 0:26:55and also, some sectors are succeeding.
0:26:55 > 0:26:59Glyn Davies, the Chancellor's statement to come for the Autumn,
0:26:59 > 0:27:01change of course?
0:27:01 > 0:27:03I don't think there will be.
0:27:03 > 0:27:06The Lib Dems and the Conservatives
0:27:06 > 0:27:12are together to deal with the deficit.
0:27:12 > 0:27:16The opposition party wants to spend more and borrow more,
0:27:16 > 0:27:20and we think that's the wrong way.
0:27:20 > 0:27:25I think George Osborne and the Westminster Government
0:27:25 > 0:27:30will keep with their plan A.
0:27:30 > 0:27:34Thank you very much for joining us.
0:27:34 > 0:27:36That's it for tonight.
0:27:36 > 0:27:41There's no programme next week due to the half-term recess.
0:27:41 > 0:27:43We'll be back in a fortnight's time.
0:27:43 > 0:27:47- Thanks for joining us. Good night. - Good night.