0:00:20 > 0:00:24Hello and welcome for another half an hour of politics here in Cardiff Bay.
0:00:24 > 0:00:28America has elected its new President and a week tomorrow,
0:00:28 > 0:00:30we will be at the polling stations as well.
0:00:30 > 0:00:33More on the Police Commissioners in a moment.
0:00:33 > 0:00:37But first, we will be discussing the latest on the allegations
0:00:37 > 0:00:41of abuse in children's homes in North Wales during the 1970s and '80s.
0:00:41 > 0:00:44What was hidden and why?
0:00:44 > 0:00:49Joining us tonight are Plaid Cymru MP Elfyn Llwyd,
0:00:49 > 0:00:52the Conservative Felix Aubel and journalist Gareth Hughes.
0:00:52 > 0:00:54Welcome to you.
0:00:54 > 0:00:58After the Jillings and Waterhouse reports,
0:00:58 > 0:01:01Westminster has agreed to set up two new inquiries
0:01:01 > 0:01:04into allegations of abuse at children's care homes in North Wales.
0:01:04 > 0:01:07There are allegations that a prominent political figure
0:01:07 > 0:01:12is part of that case and that previous inquiries had failed
0:01:12 > 0:01:14to reveal the truth.
0:01:14 > 0:01:17Tomos Livingstone has the latest.
0:01:19 > 0:01:22Bryn Estyn in Wrexham.
0:01:22 > 0:01:25It is a scar on the history of Wales
0:01:25 > 0:01:28and one that has been re-opened this week.
0:01:28 > 0:01:33Children were sexually abused here during the '70s and '80s
0:01:36 > 0:01:40but questions have been raised about who was to blame.
0:01:40 > 0:01:46Was the 1996 independent inquiry thorough enough?
0:01:46 > 0:01:50With stories about Jimmy Savile in the newspapers,
0:01:50 > 0:01:53there's pressure to look again into the Bryn Estyn case.
0:01:53 > 0:01:56Keith Towler has raised his concerns
0:01:56 > 0:02:00with the First Minister, Carwyn Jones.
0:02:00 > 0:02:03What kind of inquiry will take place?
0:02:03 > 0:02:07Will it be held by a judge or a Commissioner?
0:02:07 > 0:02:11You can't open the old inquiry
0:02:11 > 0:02:13because many people have died since then.
0:02:13 > 0:02:16The question for me
0:02:16 > 0:02:21is how can we move forward to make sure that people get answers?
0:02:21 > 0:02:23There were feeling in Cardiff Bay
0:02:23 > 0:02:27that Westminster should be leading this one.
0:02:27 > 0:02:30Steve Messham travelled to London
0:02:30 > 0:02:32to hear two new inquiries are to be held.
0:02:32 > 0:02:36One into the North Wales Police
0:02:36 > 0:02:40and the other will look into the Waterhouse Report.
0:02:40 > 0:02:48It is important the victims have the opportunity to a fair hearing.
0:02:48 > 0:02:53I am pleased that Mr Messham came to talk to us.
0:02:53 > 0:02:58It was very important to him as well.
0:02:58 > 0:03:02There were claims that Conservative politicians
0:03:02 > 0:03:04had been abusing children in North Wales.
0:03:04 > 0:03:11One of the politicians is alive but has not been named publicly.
0:03:11 > 0:03:17Last night, one victim said that Sir Peter Morrison,
0:03:17 > 0:03:23the MP for Chester who died in 1995, had visited the children's home.
0:03:23 > 0:03:29Questions have to be asked about why the inquiry
0:03:29 > 0:03:33was blinkered in a way at that time.
0:03:33 > 0:03:38There were debates within Parliament
0:03:38 > 0:03:44after the report was published why people weren't named.
0:03:44 > 0:03:48There were also questions as to why the police
0:03:48 > 0:03:52didn't look into the allegations.
0:03:52 > 0:03:56Can these allegations be properly looked at
0:03:56 > 0:04:00as so much time has passed?
0:04:00 > 0:04:05The victims hope that this is a chance for the truth to come out.
0:04:07 > 0:04:10Elfyn Llwyd,
0:04:10 > 0:04:13do you share these concerns about the Waterhouse Inquiry
0:04:13 > 0:04:18as someone who has been involved in the legal circles in North Wales?
0:04:18 > 0:04:24Yes. I think the biggest problem is that the remit of that inquiry
0:04:24 > 0:04:31was too narrow. It should have been expanded.
0:04:31 > 0:04:35It wasn't good enough in my opinion for anyone to say
0:04:35 > 0:04:38because this abuse took place outside of the care home,
0:04:38 > 0:04:43it wasn't something that they could investigate.
0:04:43 > 0:04:48The evidence should have been looked at very carefully by the police
0:04:48 > 0:04:52to see how far it went.
0:04:52 > 0:04:56It is a matter what the remit was at the time.
0:04:56 > 0:04:59I remember the investigation was welcomed
0:04:59 > 0:05:06and it has raised many issues and showed abuse on a wide scale.
0:05:06 > 0:05:11But many of us argued afterwards what has happened
0:05:11 > 0:05:15to those who took part in the abuse,
0:05:15 > 0:05:21why only six or seven have been prosecuted.
0:05:21 > 0:05:26That is the point. Many things happened,
0:05:26 > 0:05:30including setting up the Children's Commissioner for Wales post?
0:05:30 > 0:05:32Nothing was set up to get justice for the victims.
0:05:32 > 0:05:35That is why I am worried.
0:05:35 > 0:05:39I agree with what the Welsh Secretary said.
0:05:39 > 0:05:42I agree with the Children's Commissioner.
0:05:42 > 0:05:48Shehas said that extra resources will be brought in from London.
0:05:48 > 0:05:51We need to look at what happened with Waterhouse.
0:05:51 > 0:05:56I think the remit was too narrow.
0:05:56 > 0:05:59There won't be any mismanagement with that inquiry.
0:05:59 > 0:06:03That inquiry did as well as they could.
0:06:03 > 0:06:07What I don't understand is for some of them to suggest
0:06:07 > 0:06:11to these young people because it was outside the remit
0:06:11 > 0:06:14they did not want to know anything about it,
0:06:14 > 0:06:19that doesn't make any sense. The police should have come right in.
0:06:19 > 0:06:24Dozens were named in the report. I remember reading the report myself.
0:06:24 > 0:06:27Dozens of people haven't been prosecuted.
0:06:27 > 0:06:32Felix Aubel, William Hague was the Welsh Secretary at the time
0:06:32 > 0:06:34and he called for this inquiry.
0:06:34 > 0:06:37Why did he put in place such a narrow remit?
0:06:37 > 0:06:39That is a mystery.
0:06:39 > 0:06:44We have to look at this current situation rather than looking back.
0:06:44 > 0:06:48But we have to look back in order to learn lessons?
0:06:48 > 0:06:54David Cameron wants to have a detailed report of what happened.
0:06:54 > 0:06:55Looking back Waterhouse,
0:06:55 > 0:06:59why didn't they look at abuse that happened outside the care homes?
0:06:59 > 0:07:03We have to ask the politicians. I don't have that answer.
0:07:03 > 0:07:07But was something being hidden?
0:07:07 > 0:07:12We had the Jillings Report that was shelved.
0:07:12 > 0:07:15Questions have to be raised as to what was being hidden.
0:07:15 > 0:07:21It is possible that some people only gave evidence if they weren't named.
0:07:21 > 0:07:27I remember when I was working in North Wales
0:07:27 > 0:07:30there were rumours about Peter Morrison.
0:07:30 > 0:07:33People tended to turn a blind eye.
0:07:33 > 0:07:39But there was no link between that and care homes in North Wales.
0:07:39 > 0:07:46Let's look at what the Welsh Government has done here.
0:07:46 > 0:07:51They have left the Westminster Government to sort it out
0:07:51 > 0:07:54as devolution hadn't taken place then.
0:07:54 > 0:08:00Are you surprised that Carwyn Jones has told them to look after it?
0:08:00 > 0:08:03I'm not surprised.
0:08:03 > 0:08:08The Assembly don't have the right to look into police matters.
0:08:08 > 0:08:13But they are responsible for child welfare?
0:08:13 > 0:08:19If you look at what happened in the '90s,
0:08:19 > 0:08:24there was a lot of talk about how the police dealt with the problem.
0:08:24 > 0:08:31Those who gave evidence said there were some accusations
0:08:31 > 0:08:38against some people in the police force itself.
0:08:38 > 0:08:46I think Westminster should look into the matter.
0:08:46 > 0:08:50Would you agree with that? Do you think there could be a joint inquiry?
0:08:50 > 0:08:57I hope that Carwyn Jones will take part in this process.
0:08:57 > 0:08:59We need to look into Waterhouse,
0:08:59 > 0:09:05but with the police it hasn't been devolved to Wales yet.
0:09:05 > 0:09:10It is important that Westminster takes the main role in that respect.
0:09:10 > 0:09:15But Carwyn Jones has to talk with Westminster
0:09:15 > 0:09:18and represent the people of Wales to tell them
0:09:18 > 0:09:21what kind of inquiry we want to look into the events of Waterhouse
0:09:21 > 0:09:24You can't wash your hands of the matter
0:09:24 > 0:09:27and say it is a matter for Westminster.
0:09:27 > 0:09:31Felix Aubel, there have been calls for a much wider inquiry.
0:09:31 > 0:09:36We have got quite a few inquiries going on.
0:09:36 > 0:09:42We need some sort of Leveson Inquiry to look at the matters in general?
0:09:42 > 0:09:45I would welcome that.
0:09:45 > 0:09:50Terrible things have taken place and we have to sort it out
0:09:50 > 0:09:54and find out who did what and when.
0:09:54 > 0:09:58We need to learn from the past in order to improve our future.
0:09:58 > 0:10:01Isn't there a danger of hysteria here?
0:10:01 > 0:10:08Somebody just wants to call for an inquiry and it's given?
0:10:08 > 0:10:13If somebody makes an allegation like this,
0:10:13 > 0:10:19I don't think these young people here haven't had fair play.
0:10:19 > 0:10:23The victims haven't been treated fairly
0:10:23 > 0:10:31for example Savil's victims and these victims in North Wales.
0:10:31 > 0:10:34I think we need an inquiry into this.
0:10:34 > 0:10:37But the question is what kind of inquiry.
0:10:37 > 0:10:42I think it should be one big one because things overlap.
0:10:42 > 0:10:47Some are asking whether Jimmy Savile was in North Wales.
0:10:47 > 0:10:51So, we should look at it as a bigger picture.
0:10:51 > 0:10:55Realistically, the idea of prosecuting people,
0:10:55 > 0:10:59and having a jury find them guilty
0:10:59 > 0:11:03is going to be very difficult after such a long time?
0:11:03 > 0:11:09I don't think so. Only two weeks ago that a man in his late 80s
0:11:09 > 0:11:15was prosecuted for abusing girls in the 1970s.
0:11:15 > 0:11:20It is possible to do that if the evidence is in place.
0:11:20 > 0:11:24As Gareth said, there were allegations
0:11:24 > 0:11:27against one high-ranking officer in North Wales.
0:11:27 > 0:11:30I don't know whether that is true or not.
0:11:30 > 0:11:35But it is a good thing that experts, who specialise in child abuse,
0:11:35 > 0:11:38are coming in to help in this inquiry.
0:11:38 > 0:11:45We need a truly independent inquiry into this.
0:11:45 > 0:11:50But in an extensice inquiry,
0:11:50 > 0:11:54some things could slip through the cracks.
0:11:54 > 0:12:00We have to concentrate on what happened in North Wales.
0:12:00 > 0:12:07You can't open the umbrella too much otherwise you will lose the details.
0:12:07 > 0:12:11But as inquiries, such as Hillsborough and Bloody Sunday,
0:12:11 > 0:12:15because they are over such a long period of time,
0:12:15 > 0:12:21does it mean you can reach the truth after such a long time?
0:12:21 > 0:12:27But after time passes, people tend to forget.
0:12:27 > 0:12:32In the case of what has happened in children's homes in North Wales,
0:12:32 > 0:12:39you have to act immediately while it is still fresh in the mind.
0:12:39 > 0:12:43But do you think they will have a fairer hearing now
0:12:43 > 0:12:47than they would have during the Waterhouse Inquiry?
0:12:47 > 0:12:50I think that's true. We should have a panel of people
0:12:50 > 0:12:55like they did during the Hillsborough inquiry.
0:12:55 > 0:12:58They all had different abilities
0:12:58 > 0:13:01and looked into things in more detail.
0:13:01 > 0:13:07I would like to see an inquiry and things being more open.
0:13:07 > 0:13:09Thank you very much.
0:13:09 > 0:13:12An election will be held in Wales a week tomorrow,
0:13:12 > 0:13:16although the race to choose new Police Commissioners
0:13:16 > 0:13:20hasn't been given much attention.
0:13:20 > 0:13:22These are new posts.
0:13:22 > 0:13:26How much of an affect will these new Commissioners have?
0:13:26 > 0:13:31Is there a better era for policing in Wales on the horizon?
0:13:31 > 0:13:35High-ranking police officers come to Glamorgan University
0:13:35 > 0:13:37to hone their skills.
0:13:37 > 0:13:42This control room is used to interview suspects
0:13:42 > 0:13:45and to try to control civil crisis.
0:13:45 > 0:13:49Before long, they will be answerable to a new chief,
0:13:49 > 0:13:51an elected Police Commissioner.
0:13:51 > 0:13:55The new commissioners can't make day-to-day policing decisions
0:13:55 > 0:13:58but they will have powers.
0:13:58 > 0:14:02They will rule the budget.
0:14:02 > 0:14:05They will decide on the policing priorities.
0:14:05 > 0:14:10But will it lead to more local and community policing?
0:14:10 > 0:14:14Is that asking too much of one officer?
0:14:14 > 0:14:18The main debate will be prioritising.
0:14:18 > 0:14:24How will the people connect with the communities?
0:14:24 > 0:14:30How will they pull out the priorities the communities need?
0:14:30 > 0:14:34We think of a community as one thing, but it isn't.
0:14:34 > 0:14:37Community is different to everyone.
0:14:37 > 0:14:41It could be a community on the internet or elderly people.
0:14:41 > 0:14:45It could be a community of young people.
0:14:45 > 0:14:48You have to take into account everyone
0:14:48 > 0:14:51and how they are going to vote for the new commissioner.
0:14:51 > 0:14:55But is there a potential to break new ground?
0:14:55 > 0:14:59Law-and-order has not been devolved to Wales, but one expert says,
0:14:59 > 0:15:03it is possible that a new Welsh way of policing will develop.
0:15:03 > 0:15:07What is the role of policing in Wales?
0:15:07 > 0:15:12How should we organise policing in Wales in this devolved era?
0:15:12 > 0:15:19What are the needs of Wales when it comes to the Welsh language?
0:15:19 > 0:15:25There is an opportunity here to create a new climate
0:15:25 > 0:15:32that will lead to public discussion on the strategic role.
0:15:32 > 0:15:38This is the real value of this role.
0:15:38 > 0:15:42What is the shape and form of policing in Wales?
0:15:42 > 0:15:46But the preparations have been uneasy so far.
0:15:46 > 0:15:50Thousands of English language voting slips had to be binned
0:15:50 > 0:15:53after a mistake by the Home Office.
0:15:53 > 0:15:56Not everyone believes that we are on the verge of a new era
0:15:56 > 0:15:58of policing in Wales.
0:15:58 > 0:16:03We are worried that the turnout is going to be very low.
0:16:03 > 0:16:06This raises questions about mandate.
0:16:06 > 0:16:09It doesn't matter how hard candidates have worked.
0:16:09 > 0:16:13There are questions about how information is going to be given
0:16:13 > 0:16:19to the public about candidates. It hasn't been organised very well.
0:16:19 > 0:16:23Many mistakes have been made during this campaign.
0:16:23 > 0:16:25We will be stepping into a new era
0:16:25 > 0:16:30with the election of four new Police Commissioners.
0:16:30 > 0:16:34It's possible that the four will lead Wales to new grounds.
0:16:34 > 0:16:40With money tight, any dramatic changes will take time.
0:16:43 > 0:16:47If you want more information on all the candidates,
0:16:47 > 0:16:51please visit our website.
0:16:51 > 0:16:55- Elfyn Llwyd, these Police Commissioners, is it a good idea?- No.
0:16:55 > 0:16:58I don't see the point in having them.
0:16:58 > 0:17:01There are dangers in bringing politics into policing.
0:17:01 > 0:17:06Policing exists because the public have a relationship
0:17:06 > 0:17:10with the police where they allow the police
0:17:10 > 0:17:13to do their work and they help them.
0:17:13 > 0:17:17Bring politics or the idea of politics into this
0:17:17 > 0:17:20and that relationship will fail.
0:17:20 > 0:17:2690% of crimes are solved after information is given by the public.
0:17:26 > 0:17:31If you destroy that very important relationship,
0:17:31 > 0:17:35policing could be very difficult
0:17:35 > 0:17:38and we could be going down a slippery slope.
0:17:38 > 0:17:43Damian Green, The minister responsible for policing said today
0:17:43 > 0:17:50that it would be unlikely that something like that could happen
0:17:50 > 0:17:54with one individual in this post.
0:17:54 > 0:17:59Scandals such as the North Wales homes abuse couldn't happen?
0:17:59 > 0:18:05I think that is a desperate justification.
0:18:05 > 0:18:09That is something quite shocking to say the least.
0:18:09 > 0:18:11We have just heard that the Commissioner
0:18:11 > 0:18:14won't have the right to interfere in day-to-day policing.
0:18:14 > 0:18:19Damian Green is talking nonsense, which is a shock.
0:18:19 > 0:18:22If that's the best reason to justify the posts,
0:18:22 > 0:18:24he is in a fragile position.
0:18:24 > 0:18:31Gareth Hughes, even if this person is neutral and balanced,
0:18:31 > 0:18:37the public's perception of him is going to raise questions.
0:18:37 > 0:18:42Say there is a sensitive inquiry into a quango
0:18:42 > 0:18:47and there is a connection with the Commissioner and the quango,
0:18:47 > 0:18:53- it is going to raise questions? - We have had recently problems
0:18:53 > 0:18:58with the connection between the Labour Party and the charity AWEMA.
0:18:58 > 0:19:04There was a link between Labour and people running AWEMA.
0:19:04 > 0:19:09If someone had been elected to control the police,
0:19:09 > 0:19:16some would argue that this isn't fair.
0:19:16 > 0:19:19Are they going to look closely at these problems.
0:19:19 > 0:19:23- Problems like these are bound to arise, aren't they?- Without a doubt.
0:19:23 > 0:19:29Some researchers in the Conservative Party have decided
0:19:29 > 0:19:35that the American Commissioners was the way to go.
0:19:35 > 0:19:41Then they have convinced the party leaders.
0:19:41 > 0:19:47The idea is going through without any proper research.
0:19:47 > 0:19:50I do urge people to support these commissioners.
0:19:50 > 0:19:54We are going to have these Commissioners but I am very dubious.
0:19:54 > 0:20:00I don't think we should bring politics into policing.
0:20:00 > 0:20:04It seems Labour is going to do well in the elections.
0:20:04 > 0:20:07We might have a monopoly of Commissioners
0:20:07 > 0:20:09from one party in Wales.
0:20:09 > 0:20:12You wouldn't want Boris Johnson in the Met.
0:20:12 > 0:20:15That is the role, isn't it?
0:20:15 > 0:20:20I think the police should be responsible for running the police.
0:20:20 > 0:20:23But who should be keeping an eye on them, the Police Authority?
0:20:23 > 0:20:30We shouldn't have political interference in the system.
0:20:30 > 0:20:36I am worried about this. I think it will damage the police's image
0:20:36 > 0:20:39if it is linked with party politics.
0:20:39 > 0:20:43The police is neutral and that's why the public are willing to help them.
0:20:43 > 0:20:50This is the question of transferring policing powers to Cardiff Bay?
0:20:50 > 0:20:54If that happened, the Assembly would supervise the police?
0:20:54 > 0:20:59Yes. I think that Felix is right.
0:20:59 > 0:21:05The problem is a person who has been put forward on behalf of a party,
0:21:05 > 0:21:08they are under pressure to be in that post.
0:21:08 > 0:21:15The party then has an idea on how much to spend and what to spend on.
0:21:16 > 0:21:20When the Anti-Social Behaviour Orders came in,
0:21:20 > 0:21:23the Home Office would directly interfere
0:21:23 > 0:21:28with every police force right across Britain
0:21:28 > 0:21:32to get them to use these ASBOs.
0:21:32 > 0:21:38I think similar ideas like this will be pushed on to people.
0:21:38 > 0:21:42But when the police will be devolved,
0:21:42 > 0:21:48and I think it is coming ever nearer because the debate is strengthening,
0:21:48 > 0:21:51the Assembly and the Ministers here will be the ones
0:21:51 > 0:21:55that will be supervising the policing.
0:21:55 > 0:22:00What about the fact that this is a way of making the police forces
0:22:00 > 0:22:03more answerable to the people of Wales?
0:22:03 > 0:22:05I don't think it will.
0:22:05 > 0:22:08The power to supervise the police should come to Wales.
0:22:08 > 0:22:13It's not likely to come in the near future either.
0:22:13 > 0:22:17I think it is silly what the Conservatives have done.
0:22:17 > 0:22:22Those who have been elected will say
0:22:22 > 0:22:29that they had better have a national political committee
0:22:29 > 0:22:34like the WLGA for the Police Commissioners.
0:22:34 > 0:22:41They will be telling Westminster they have evidence of doing this.
0:22:41 > 0:22:44Maybe this would have worked better during the time
0:22:44 > 0:22:50when budgets for the policing was increasing?
0:22:50 > 0:22:53And you'd would be spending money on more things.
0:22:53 > 0:22:58But the commissioners will have to look for cuts.
0:22:58 > 0:23:02This is true. Many people have talked to me about this.
0:23:02 > 0:23:06You put another layer of bureaucracy on policing,
0:23:06 > 0:23:09it will cost £100,000 a year for these Commissioners
0:23:09 > 0:23:12and you expect police forces to make cuts.
0:23:12 > 0:23:17Policing should be devolved to Wales.
0:23:17 > 0:23:21If it is good enough for the Northern Ireland Parliament,
0:23:21 > 0:23:25it is good enough for the Assembly in Wales.
0:23:25 > 0:23:30- There are concerns that will be a low turnout?- I think it will be very low.
0:23:30 > 0:23:33It will be very low. I had my postal vote two days ago.
0:23:33 > 0:23:37I don't know who to vote for.
0:23:37 > 0:23:41I didn't have any information at all.
0:23:41 > 0:23:459% is the lowest ever, that was opening pubs on Sunday.
0:23:45 > 0:23:48- Will it be lower than that?- That is quite an important issue.
0:23:48 > 0:23:52What will be the percentage?
0:23:52 > 0:23:55No percentage. Everybody on the fence. Many thanks to you all.
0:23:55 > 0:24:00We will be back at the earlier time of 9.30pm next Wednesday.
0:24:00 > 0:24:05- Good night.- Good night.