0:00:20 > 0:00:24Hello and welcome to CF99 for half an hour of debate.
0:00:24 > 0:00:30The main topic tonight is power - powers to raise taxes and the power to legislate.
0:00:30 > 0:00:33We'll be discussing the findings of the Silk Commission
0:00:33 > 0:00:36on the Assembly's financial powers and the Welsh Government's
0:00:36 > 0:00:40victory in the Supreme Court today on this place's ability to legislate.
0:00:40 > 0:00:44We're joined tonight by Albert Owen MP of the Labour Party, Ieuan Wyn Jones AM of Plaid Cymru, both from
0:00:44 > 0:00:48Anglesey, and Iestyn Davies from the Federation of Small Businesses.
0:00:48 > 0:00:53- Welcome.- Who should be responsible for setting income tax?
0:00:53 > 0:00:56The Westminster Government at the moment,
0:00:56 > 0:00:59but in the future the Welsh Government should share that
0:00:59 > 0:01:02responsibility, according to the Silk Commission.
0:01:02 > 0:01:06It has just spent a year looking at the Assembly's financial powers.
0:01:06 > 0:01:11It's easy for the Welsh Government to spend £15 billion every year, but
0:01:11 > 0:01:18how difficult would it be to raise around a quarter of that in Wales?
0:01:18 > 0:01:22And do the politicians in Cardiff Bay want that responsibility?
0:01:22 > 0:01:23Aled ap Dafydd reports.
0:01:23 > 0:01:26A BT apprentice for 18 months,
0:01:26 > 0:01:30Lewis Morgan is the latest generation paying income tax.
0:01:30 > 0:01:35If the Silk Commission recommendations see the light of day,
0:01:35 > 0:01:39a percentage of his future earnings will go to the Welsh Government.
0:01:39 > 0:01:42It raises the question, how much tax will Lewis pay in the future?
0:01:42 > 0:01:48But what sensible government in Wales would force Lewis to pay
0:01:48 > 0:01:54a penny extra in tax to raise £180 million?
0:01:55 > 0:02:00You're right and that's why I'm emphasising the fact.
0:02:00 > 0:02:04One of the most significant things in what is suggested in this
0:02:04 > 0:02:08report is changing the Welsh Government's thoughts,
0:02:08 > 0:02:12the parties and the people, to be honest.
0:02:12 > 0:02:15We have concentrated on spending money and I understand that,
0:02:15 > 0:02:18but now we need to concentrate on growing the economy,
0:02:18 > 0:02:22getting more people into work, and raising taxes in other ways.
0:02:22 > 0:02:25But that has its risks.
0:02:25 > 0:02:28In the four years leading up to 2010, there has been
0:02:28 > 0:02:33a fall of 11% in the revenue raised by income tax in Wales.
0:02:33 > 0:02:3726% of employment is in the public sector.
0:02:37 > 0:02:43How will UK Government cuts affect the workforce and income tax revenue?
0:02:43 > 0:02:47Economist Roy Thomas has studied the dangers of trying to increase
0:02:47 > 0:02:50the number of people paying income tax rather than changing
0:02:50 > 0:02:55the rate in order to add to government coffers.
0:02:55 > 0:02:59Up until 2007 and 2008, there is a growth in Wales and the UK.
0:02:59 > 0:03:02Wales, if anything,
0:03:02 > 0:03:06was doing slightly better than the rest of the UK.
0:03:06 > 0:03:12Since then, unfortunately, the graph starts to fall due to the recession.
0:03:12 > 0:03:16That is the danger in the future, if that happened again,
0:03:16 > 0:03:19the economy weakening.
0:03:19 > 0:03:22Under these recommendations, we would be losing out in Wales.
0:03:23 > 0:03:29Some in the world of business sense an opportunity to grow the economy.
0:03:29 > 0:03:33Devolving four minor taxes, including stamp duty,
0:03:33 > 0:03:35is also recommended by Silk.
0:03:35 > 0:03:38With house prices in Wales on average 0.7% lower this month, compared
0:03:38 > 0:03:44with last year, there are no shortage of ideas on how to boost the market.
0:03:45 > 0:03:50I don't think it's fair. The payments over 250, they pay 3%.
0:03:50 > 0:03:54I think if they graded it, it would be a lot fairer
0:03:54 > 0:03:59and that is one thing the Government could look at.
0:03:59 > 0:04:05It's no wonder there is a smile on the face of the Welsh Secretary in receiving the recommendations.
0:04:05 > 0:04:08He knows that the Welsh Government will be happy with some elements
0:04:08 > 0:04:12and will fight against the public opinion, in being unwilling to
0:04:12 > 0:04:14welcome the idea of raising a percentage of income tax.
0:04:14 > 0:04:18For the time being, David Jones is playing the diplomat.
0:04:18 > 0:04:23The report is important and now the Government will go on to
0:04:23 > 0:04:28study the recommendations and will return with an answer.
0:04:28 > 0:04:31The parties will also consider the contents.
0:04:31 > 0:04:35But Welsh Labour's response will influence the next step.
0:04:35 > 0:04:38In order to vary taxes, the Commission
0:04:38 > 0:04:42recommends two-thirds of AM support is needed, along with a referendum.
0:04:42 > 0:04:48Listening to the First Minister, there is an obstruction to overcome.
0:04:48 > 0:04:55There is a trap because if you look at the situation at the moment,
0:04:55 > 0:05:00Wales is funded £350 million less than it should.
0:05:00 > 0:05:03If we had powers to change income taxes,
0:05:03 > 0:05:08that would lock in the fact that we do not receive enough funding.
0:05:08 > 0:05:11Today, that message reached the Treasury.
0:05:11 > 0:05:14The Commission also says that the formula which funds
0:05:14 > 0:05:16Wales should be reviewed
0:05:16 > 0:05:21and that devolving income tax relies on there being a new system in place.
0:05:21 > 0:05:26I don't think that this argument over Barnett is the most important.
0:05:26 > 0:05:29I think the argument set out by Silk is far more important.
0:05:29 > 0:05:32At the end of the day,
0:05:32 > 0:05:37reforming the Barnett Formula will create around £300 million.
0:05:37 > 0:05:43That may sound like a lot, but it's around 2% of the Assembly budget.
0:05:43 > 0:05:47With far-reaching decisions to be made, it's not the time for an
0:05:47 > 0:05:52apprentice at the helm, but with the economy as it is, who knows whether
0:05:52 > 0:05:56Lewis will contribute to the economic success of Wales in the future?
0:05:56 > 0:05:59The Latin for tax means "to estimate"
0:05:59 > 0:06:03and that's all we can do with the economy as it is right now.
0:06:05 > 0:06:09Aled ap Dafydd reporting.
0:06:09 > 0:06:13Albert Owen, Carwyn Jones says he welcome the report,
0:06:13 > 0:06:16especially as a referendum would be required,
0:06:16 > 0:06:20along with a vote here, to transfer powers for income tax.
0:06:20 > 0:06:25Do you have the same doubts and the same welcome?
0:06:25 > 0:06:29I do welcome it. This is a very good report.
0:06:29 > 0:06:33And this is an important step in the devolution process.
0:06:33 > 0:06:37The commissioners have looked at this during the past year
0:06:37 > 0:06:39and they have produced a good report.
0:06:39 > 0:06:44We need a referendum. We need to bring people along with us.
0:06:44 > 0:06:47It's great to have this debate in a studio,
0:06:47 > 0:06:51on a programme like this, but we must ensure that people
0:06:51 > 0:06:56understand the future and how we will raise money in the future.
0:06:56 > 0:06:58I welcome this report.
0:06:58 > 0:07:02But the problem is we're talking about an economy
0:07:02 > 0:07:06in Wales that is weak, historically weak, especially weak right now.
0:07:06 > 0:07:10Looking at some of the figures in the report, the base is
0:07:10 > 0:07:13so small in Wales.
0:07:13 > 0:07:17There are so few people paying the higher rate.
0:07:17 > 0:07:22We're talking about raising money from people who are relatively poor.
0:07:22 > 0:07:26Local government raises money.
0:07:26 > 0:07:31To me, it is sensible to look at how the National Assembly raises
0:07:31 > 0:07:34money in the future. This is an important step.
0:07:34 > 0:07:38We can't jump into something right now.
0:07:38 > 0:07:42We must look at what the Commission has suggested
0:07:42 > 0:07:45and cooperate with the Welsh Government
0:07:45 > 0:07:50and the UK Government to ensure we get it right.
0:07:50 > 0:07:54And we get the right transition, not just jump in.
0:07:54 > 0:07:57But this is a good report, so I do welcome it
0:07:57 > 0:08:01and I want to cooperate with people on this on the devolution process.
0:08:01 > 0:08:05At the end of the day, the Assembly has begun doing a good job
0:08:05 > 0:08:13and I think it needs help to raise money, as local government does.
0:08:13 > 0:08:15We don't want to just put up taxes.
0:08:15 > 0:08:20As we have seen in Scotland, taxes can be reduced.
0:08:20 > 0:08:24On the income tax point, Ieuan Wyn Jones, there is a risk here.
0:08:24 > 0:08:27Aled mentioned it in the report, as did Roy Thomas.
0:08:27 > 0:08:31The UK Government's borrowing figures are out today.
0:08:31 > 0:08:37There is less coming in because not as many people are in employment.
0:08:37 > 0:08:41How would you fill that black hole?
0:08:41 > 0:08:47Well, I see this as an opportunity because at the moment what can
0:08:47 > 0:08:51the Welsh Government do help the Welsh economy during a recession?
0:08:51 > 0:08:55Not much. All they get is a block grant from London.
0:08:55 > 0:08:59This gives you an opportunity to grow the economy.
0:08:59 > 0:09:01Vaughan is right.
0:09:01 > 0:09:06The tax base right now is low, but there is an opportunity now
0:09:06 > 0:09:09to grow the tax base by being careful, if you like,
0:09:09 > 0:09:13in the way we raise or lower taxes and give businesses a boost.
0:09:13 > 0:09:18Albert is right. You don't have to think of it as raising every time.
0:09:18 > 0:09:21If you have a responsibility for business tax, what you can do
0:09:21 > 0:09:26is lower taxes for small businesses and grow the economy.
0:09:26 > 0:09:29We will discuss business tax shortly.
0:09:29 > 0:09:33But I want to raise another tax with you - the flight tax.
0:09:33 > 0:09:35Now it's obvious to me that the
0:09:35 > 0:09:42reason people want powers for that here is to cut it for flights
0:09:42 > 0:09:46to places like Dubai, New York and so on, to boost links.
0:09:46 > 0:09:53But you have Bristol Airport saying - we will lose 20% of business
0:09:53 > 0:09:57to Cardiff, it's unfair and it goes against European law.
0:09:57 > 0:09:59You can do it.
0:09:59 > 0:10:04What we have to realise is that so many small countries,
0:10:04 > 0:10:08just as small as Wales, you have regions in Switzerland,
0:10:08 > 0:10:11with different tax levels and they can cope with that.
0:10:11 > 0:10:15In Wales, we are seeing, for example you mentioned flight
0:10:15 > 0:10:19tax for passengers, I think that is an opportunity for us.
0:10:19 > 0:10:23Bristol will then have to discuss it with the Treasury.
0:10:23 > 0:10:27But it gives us an opportunity to move forward.
0:10:27 > 0:10:32The important thing is that the economy grows and that we have
0:10:32 > 0:10:36more people paying tax, rather than thinking increasing tax.
0:10:36 > 0:10:40All the taxes mentioned this week,
0:10:40 > 0:10:43everyone is talking about lowering taxes, Iestyn Davies,
0:10:43 > 0:10:49including business tax, corporation tax is not part of the package.
0:10:49 > 0:10:52But there would be a problem if everything is lowered.
0:10:52 > 0:10:55Or would it make Wales so competitive that everyone would come here to live?
0:10:55 > 0:10:59The truth is that the report is a reality check.
0:10:59 > 0:11:02It's put the figures on the table.
0:11:02 > 0:11:06Everyone knows the system needs to be challenged with the economy,
0:11:06 > 0:11:10lower taxes, ensure businesses can grow.
0:11:10 > 0:11:12But the truth is, not just in terms of the economy
0:11:12 > 0:11:17but in terms of politics, there is a huge reality check in the report.
0:11:17 > 0:11:20But saying that, we welcome the report.
0:11:20 > 0:11:23It gives us an opportunity to think afresh about certain taxes,
0:11:23 > 0:11:26but basically we are a small country, we are a poor country,
0:11:26 > 0:11:30and we have to do something to ensure we tackle these problems
0:11:30 > 0:11:34and that we grow in a sustainable way over the coming years.
0:11:34 > 0:11:37Ieuan Wyn Jones, accountability and responsibility,
0:11:37 > 0:11:40those are the big words in this report.
0:11:40 > 0:11:41You've been a minister
0:11:41 > 0:11:46and have had the pocket money from Westminster, however the economy
0:11:46 > 0:11:50performs, it is the same amount, so will it change the thought process?
0:11:50 > 0:11:53It doesn't continue to be the same amount.
0:11:53 > 0:11:57We have seen a significant cut during the recession.
0:11:57 > 0:12:01But I welcome the fact there is more accountability
0:12:01 > 0:12:05because it means that anyone, nay party in government,
0:12:05 > 0:12:09has to justify the spending because people can say - if you're
0:12:09 > 0:12:13doing that, you have to raise taxes, and the Welsh Government would
0:12:13 > 0:12:18then have to be careful in how it puts forward arguments in elections.
0:12:18 > 0:12:22That is a good thing, but at the moment the Government
0:12:22 > 0:12:28and the Assembly cannot ensure that you get value for money.
0:12:28 > 0:12:31On that point, Albert Owen, more Assembly Members?
0:12:31 > 0:12:34That has been discussed this week.
0:12:34 > 0:12:38In the future, I see that happening.
0:12:38 > 0:12:42We have had a referendum on more powers
0:12:42 > 0:12:46and the Assembly is now working harder and I think in the
0:12:46 > 0:12:51future we will need more members, but this is part of the debate.
0:12:51 > 0:12:54If we want to do it properly, we need more resources.
0:12:54 > 0:12:59- But not just members.- Do the people of Wales want that? More politicians?
0:12:59 > 0:13:04Not just members, as I was saying, we need officials that are up to speed on things like this.
0:13:04 > 0:13:08It's part of the process. The body is growing.
0:13:08 > 0:13:11And I think the reason in having a referendum is to make sure
0:13:11 > 0:13:14we take the people along with us when we move forward.
0:13:14 > 0:13:17But there are a lot of good things in this report.
0:13:17 > 0:13:19It is an important step.
0:13:19 > 0:13:22The legislation has not gone through Westminster,
0:13:22 > 0:13:25the Treasury has not finished considering the work.
0:13:25 > 0:13:27Before the referendum,
0:13:27 > 0:13:30we remember that long process of preparing the ground,
0:13:30 > 0:13:33Sir Emyr going round the country and his curry nights and so on.
0:13:33 > 0:13:37Are we going to see something similar?
0:13:37 > 0:13:40Do we need to sell the idea, as Albert is suggesting?
0:13:40 > 0:13:42Yes, certainly.
0:13:42 > 0:13:45You need that debate. I think we need it in this country.
0:13:45 > 0:13:50That is why we had the convention before the 2011 referendum.
0:13:50 > 0:13:52I see the same kind of consensus, I hope,
0:13:52 > 0:13:56starting to develop regarding moving forward again.
0:13:56 > 0:14:01I admit, it is going to happen far quicker than I had imagined,
0:14:01 > 0:14:05but I think we must grasp this moment and move to have a political
0:14:05 > 0:14:08consensus to ensure we can move forward.
0:14:08 > 0:14:11Too soon, Ieuan Wyn Jones?
0:14:11 > 0:14:14No because what is interesting is that people in Wales have
0:14:14 > 0:14:18moved forward a huge distance since 2011 and we must realise that
0:14:18 > 0:14:21people now want to see the Assembly getting these powers.
0:14:21 > 0:14:25I agree. When we asked small businesses about the situation,
0:14:25 > 0:14:31the question of having these powers is not what they are worried about.
0:14:31 > 0:14:33The question is,
0:14:33 > 0:14:39is the Assembly prepared to use the powers sensibly and sustainably?
0:14:39 > 0:14:42Iestyn, you wrote in the Western Mail today that a referendum
0:14:42 > 0:14:48would more or less be a referendum on this place's credibility and ability.
0:14:48 > 0:14:51Certainly. All referendums follow that pattern.
0:14:51 > 0:14:55You are basically having a referendum on how well people
0:14:55 > 0:14:59consider the current government is doing.
0:14:59 > 0:15:02That happened in terms of the AV referendum.
0:15:02 > 0:15:04And in terms of the last referendum.
0:15:04 > 0:15:08It's important now that the current government tackles this
0:15:08 > 0:15:16challenge and show how well or badly they perform when using the money.
0:15:16 > 0:15:19Thank you. Well, that's the end of part one of the Silk Commission.
0:15:19 > 0:15:23Shortly, we'll hear the panel's opinion on what may be
0:15:23 > 0:15:27recommended after part two is completed.
0:15:27 > 0:15:32Well, it's certain that today's Supreme Court ruling that the first
0:15:32 > 0:15:37Bill passed by the Assembly is legal will be noted during that process.
0:15:37 > 0:15:41Earlier, I spoke to our political editor, Betsan Powys,
0:15:41 > 0:15:44about the Welsh Government's victory.
0:15:44 > 0:15:47The Welsh Government has won. It's definitely 1-0.
0:15:47 > 0:15:51What the Supreme Court has said is clear.
0:15:51 > 0:15:54It's not a matter of looking for grey areas in the middle.
0:15:54 > 0:15:57They have said in this case - we agree with the Welsh Government.
0:15:57 > 0:16:02The five judges were unanimous. And so it can become legislation.
0:16:02 > 0:16:05Carwyn Jones can say a number of commentators in London will
0:16:05 > 0:16:10tend to think in such cases that the UK Government is surely right.
0:16:11 > 0:16:18Accept that there is a level of expertise in Wales. And we are right.
0:16:18 > 0:16:20But it did go to court.
0:16:20 > 0:16:23That has never happened with the Scottish settlement.
0:16:23 > 0:16:29That leads people to think, as we move on to Silk Two, the next step,
0:16:29 > 0:16:34maybe we should change the model to stop this from happening again.
0:16:34 > 0:16:37Yes. The response from Welsh Secretary David Jones is - look,
0:16:37 > 0:16:39this is how it is.
0:16:39 > 0:16:43It was not interfering, this is how devolution works.
0:16:43 > 0:16:45Carwyn Jones doesn't agree.
0:16:45 > 0:16:48The point he has made again is that it is time to look
0:16:48 > 0:16:52again at this as it is not clear.
0:16:52 > 0:16:55As you suggested, in Scotland, if something is defined as not
0:16:55 > 0:16:59devolved, take it that everything is devolved.
0:16:59 > 0:17:01It is the opposite in Wales.
0:17:01 > 0:17:04If something is not defined, it is not devolved,
0:17:04 > 0:17:08and Carwyn Jones says it is time to review that.
0:17:08 > 0:17:11We know that David Jones hopes to have a legislative
0:17:11 > 0:17:15slot for the first part of Silk.
0:17:15 > 0:17:19Does Carwyn Jones hope to include that change in the measure?
0:17:19 > 0:17:23I think the message for Silk was clear. He said this is not news.
0:17:23 > 0:17:29I have been saying this for a long time. This is the way it should be.
0:17:29 > 0:17:32If so, we need to think ahead, as you are suggesting, and ensure
0:17:32 > 0:17:36that the ground is prepared and that the slots are available.
0:17:36 > 0:17:39I don't know how hopeful he is of success.
0:17:39 > 0:17:41But I think that is the aim.
0:17:41 > 0:17:46So if Ron Davies was the architect of devolution,
0:17:46 > 0:17:49he was a bit of a Jerry builder!
0:17:49 > 0:17:53When someone mentioned another referendum on tax raising powers,
0:17:53 > 0:17:58I think many shoulders sank, not just ours!
0:17:58 > 0:18:01Yes, Smith and Jones there!
0:18:01 > 0:18:06Ieuan Wyn Jones, as a solicitor, I'll begin with you.
0:18:06 > 0:18:11I won't discuss tattoo shops in Swansea.
0:18:11 > 0:18:15But the London Government was right to challenge this?
0:18:15 > 0:18:20If they wanted to choose a case to challenge the Welsh Government,
0:18:20 > 0:18:22was this the measure to choose?
0:18:22 > 0:18:27It is the first measure, but it's a small measure,
0:18:27 > 0:18:32meaning pretty much nothing to anyone outside a small audience.
0:18:32 > 0:18:37But it is the principle that is important here.
0:18:37 > 0:18:41I know, but if you want to fight a matter, you would not choose this.
0:18:41 > 0:18:44And it was on a technical point.
0:18:44 > 0:18:48I'm not surprised that the Supreme Court has thrown this out,
0:18:48 > 0:18:54saying "Don't waste our time with this kind of thing."
0:18:54 > 0:18:58- So it's not much of a victory. - Well, it is a victory,
0:18:58 > 0:19:01in the sense that the Welsh Government has held its ground.
0:19:01 > 0:19:04But I'd like to move on to the point Vaughan was making,
0:19:04 > 0:19:08if we are to have a new measure to implement the first part of Silk,
0:19:08 > 0:19:12we need to include in that measure, we hold back the powers, take
0:19:12 > 0:19:15it that matters have been devolved, unless they are exceptions.
0:19:15 > 0:19:19- I think that would settle the problem.- Albert Owen,
0:19:19 > 0:19:23it seems that there is a consensus in that, this side of the M4.
0:19:23 > 0:19:26Do you share the same opinion, that we need to move towards
0:19:26 > 0:19:29a model similar to that in Scotland, not exactly the same powers,
0:19:29 > 0:19:33but where the Westminster powers are listed, rather than Wales' powers.
0:19:33 > 0:19:35I agree with Ieuan.
0:19:35 > 0:19:39This is a waste of time and money going to court like this.
0:19:39 > 0:19:42There are tensions between all governments, local government
0:19:42 > 0:19:45and the Assembly, for example.
0:19:45 > 0:19:48And also between Westminster and Europe.
0:19:48 > 0:19:52But running straight to court, people need to grow up.
0:19:52 > 0:19:57We need to make sure we get these measures right and the process.
0:19:57 > 0:20:02This is a new process, but running straight to court...
0:20:02 > 0:20:05And as the court has said, this was a waste of time
0:20:05 > 0:20:09and I think this is a message for David Jones too - the Welsh Office
0:20:09 > 0:20:13must understand that more powers are going to the Welsh Government.
0:20:13 > 0:20:17They need to take another look at things, not just run to court.
0:20:17 > 0:20:19Do you blame David Jones for that?
0:20:19 > 0:20:24The fact that maybe because he is a solicitor, that he
0:20:24 > 0:20:29went through it with a fine tooth comb rather than maybe using goodwill and common sense?
0:20:29 > 0:20:32David Jones' record, if people take a look at that,
0:20:32 > 0:20:36doesn't sit comfortably with devolution.
0:20:36 > 0:20:40But to be fair to him, I'm sure he was advised by Welsh Office
0:20:40 > 0:20:45officials and I think he was wrongly advised.
0:20:45 > 0:20:48And the court said that is so.
0:20:48 > 0:20:53But David Jones must, I think, take another look at the process
0:20:53 > 0:20:57and cooperate more with Carwyn Jones, not just talk about it,
0:20:57 > 0:21:03but look at these things and not go running to the court.
0:21:03 > 0:21:06Iestyn Davies, as someone who is looking at this from outside
0:21:06 > 0:21:09politics, would it have been different
0:21:09 > 0:21:12if the two governments were the same colour?
0:21:12 > 0:21:16Maybe. We've heard of poor relationships in the past
0:21:16 > 0:21:21between the Welsh Secretary and the Senedd.
0:21:21 > 0:21:24I'm not sure it has anything to do with the parties.
0:21:24 > 0:21:28It could have happened on a constitutional level, I think,
0:21:28 > 0:21:33but this was not a matter for this action.
0:21:33 > 0:21:38I don't think we can say we won't see the same thing happen again.
0:21:38 > 0:21:43That will be disappointing for those outside the Assembly.
0:21:43 > 0:21:48What business wants is certainty, so we are clear about the
0:21:48 > 0:21:51legislation, the situation, who is in charge and making decisions.
0:21:51 > 0:21:54If a case needs to be raised, that there
0:21:54 > 0:21:59is a definite explanation in response.
0:21:59 > 0:22:03But to be cynical, Carwyn Jones did not choose the battle,
0:22:03 > 0:22:06but it has turned out well for him.
0:22:06 > 0:22:09He has raised this matter, something he wishes to raise,
0:22:09 > 0:22:12regarding the powers.
0:22:12 > 0:22:16Certainly and I think most people in the world of business
0:22:16 > 0:22:19are saying that what we need now is these assurances.
0:22:19 > 0:22:23What has been devolved, who is making the decisions,
0:22:23 > 0:22:28where does this power sit, not just the Assembly or Westminster,
0:22:28 > 0:22:31but in terms of the courts too.
0:22:31 > 0:22:34Who is legislating, who is deciding, who will judge these matters?
0:22:34 > 0:22:39As far as organ donation, the next controversial legislation,
0:22:39 > 0:22:42- do you expect a challenge? - I don't know.
0:22:42 > 0:22:48I think now the government in London will have to be very careful what
0:22:48 > 0:22:54they do and I think they will think twice before challenging again.
0:22:54 > 0:22:58David Jones has said clearly he is prepared to challenge again.
0:22:58 > 0:23:02Well, yes. But does he want this constant battle?
0:23:02 > 0:23:06Does he want these arguments in court?
0:23:06 > 0:23:08What we need, as Iestyn has said, are assurances.
0:23:08 > 0:23:12And if the Welsh Government is advised that what
0:23:12 > 0:23:18they are doing is within their powers, they will want to legislate.
0:23:18 > 0:23:22- But as a solicitor...- They are not going to opt out of legislating because David Jones says they can't.
0:23:22 > 0:23:26They will do so on the basis of advice they receive.
0:23:26 > 0:23:31But as far as new ground and as a solicitor, you know the boundaries must be correct and in place.
0:23:31 > 0:23:36Yes. I accept that. And that is why I believe...
0:23:36 > 0:23:39We have a challenge, two challenges, one was dropped.
0:23:39 > 0:23:42If the next measure faces another challenge,
0:23:42 > 0:23:45what are the people of Wales going to think?
0:23:45 > 0:23:47Why have we voted in favour of an Assembly with legislative
0:23:47 > 0:23:50powers if London goes to court each time?
0:23:50 > 0:23:54- Albert Owen, do you think you are more important in London?- No.
0:23:54 > 0:23:56There are bilaterals between David Jones and Carwyn Jones.
0:23:56 > 0:24:00And they have an opportunity to sit down
0:24:00 > 0:24:05and talk about these things before a measure is brought forward.
0:24:05 > 0:24:11So this is out of sync and as I say, both governments need to grow up.
0:24:11 > 0:24:18Devolution is here, we need to look at the advice received by both
0:24:18 > 0:24:22governments and not run to the court.
0:24:22 > 0:24:26On that note, we will end things. Thank you, all three.
0:24:26 > 0:24:32- That's all for tonight. We will see you at the same time next week.- Yes.
0:24:32 > 0:24:35- It will be nice to see you again. Good night.- Good night.