0:00:19 > 0:00:23Hello and welcome to CF99 live from Cardiff Bay.
0:00:23 > 0:00:25On tonight's programme:
0:00:25 > 0:00:27In or out?
0:00:27 > 0:00:31That's the choice if David Cameron gets his referendum on Europe.
0:00:32 > 0:00:36I think agriculture will lose out if we leave Europe.
0:00:36 > 0:00:41A lot of money comes into Britain and agriculture from Europe.
0:00:41 > 0:00:43The chaos over banks.
0:00:43 > 0:00:47The parties compete to have their say on loans to small businesses.
0:00:47 > 0:00:50I wouldn't say this is a conspiracy.
0:00:50 > 0:00:55It's great to see three parties in Wales ready to do this.
0:00:58 > 0:01:02Having battled through the snow to join us is Baroness Eluned Morgan,
0:01:02 > 0:01:05the former Labour MEP.
0:01:05 > 0:01:07The political commentator Gareth Hughes
0:01:07 > 0:01:12and in our Westminster studio is the Conservative MP, Glyn Davies.
0:01:12 > 0:01:15Welcome, bienvenue and willkommen to you three.
0:01:17 > 0:01:20That brings us to David Cameron's big speech on the future
0:01:20 > 0:01:22of Britain's relationship with the EU.
0:01:22 > 0:01:24He promised there would be a referendum to decide
0:01:24 > 0:01:27whether we should remain within the EU or not.
0:01:27 > 0:01:30That only if the Tories win the next election
0:01:30 > 0:01:32and after a period of consultation.
0:01:32 > 0:01:37But what will influence the vote if there is one?
0:01:37 > 0:01:39Aled ap Dafydd has been asking the public.
0:01:45 > 0:01:471975.
0:01:47 > 0:01:52David Essex was at his height and the question was black and white.
0:01:52 > 0:01:53In or out of the European Union?
0:01:55 > 0:01:57Two thirds of us were in favour of sticking
0:01:57 > 0:01:59with our Continental cousins.
0:02:00 > 0:02:02But jump forward 40 years
0:02:02 > 0:02:05and David Cameron is resurrecting the referendum.
0:02:05 > 0:02:07This is the bargain.
0:02:07 > 0:02:10The next Conservative manifesto in 2015,
0:02:10 > 0:02:13will ask for a mandate from the British people
0:02:13 > 0:02:16for a Conservative government to negotiate
0:02:16 > 0:02:21a new settlement with our European partners in the next parliament.
0:02:21 > 0:02:25It will be a relationship with the single market at its heart.
0:02:25 > 0:02:29And when we have negotiated that new settlement we will give
0:02:29 > 0:02:35the British people a referendum with a very simple in or out choice.
0:02:35 > 0:02:38To those who follow the history of the European debate,
0:02:38 > 0:02:43the hysteria which rears its head every now and then hides the facts.
0:02:43 > 0:02:48Europe isn't the question but rather the Prime Minister's appeal.
0:02:48 > 0:02:52One of the reasons why Europe has come back to the forefront recently
0:02:52 > 0:02:56is that David Cameron's leadership of the Conservative party
0:02:56 > 0:02:58is under scrutiny.
0:02:58 > 0:03:01He has to respond to that.
0:03:01 > 0:03:06So we have to interpret what's happened today in that context.
0:03:06 > 0:03:10He is responding, not so much to the European question,
0:03:10 > 0:03:14although he is doing that, but responding to those
0:03:14 > 0:03:18within the Conservative party who are sceptical of his leadership.
0:03:20 > 0:03:22On this farm in Carmarthenshire
0:03:22 > 0:03:24there is a definite opinion on Europe.
0:03:24 > 0:03:27Hello, Brian. How are you?
0:03:27 > 0:03:30- Let's go and see the cattle. - Brilliant.
0:03:30 > 0:03:35European aid worth an average £15,000 a year
0:03:35 > 0:03:38to 16,000 farmers in Wales which keeps the agricultural industry
0:03:38 > 0:03:41on its feet.
0:03:41 > 0:03:44Brian Walters remembers the referendum in 1975
0:03:44 > 0:03:48and he voted in favour of Britain joining the European Union.
0:03:48 > 0:03:51That opinion has not changed.
0:03:51 > 0:03:54We would lose out in agriculture if we leave Europe.
0:03:55 > 0:03:59A lot of money comes into Britain from Europe and into agriculture.
0:03:59 > 0:04:01Maybe it isn't shared fairly
0:04:01 > 0:04:05but money is coming in and that helps rural economy.
0:04:05 > 0:04:09Emyr Owen wasn't even born in 1975.
0:04:09 > 0:04:11But he has seen the free market interfering
0:04:11 > 0:04:13in the growth of the family business.
0:04:13 > 0:04:17The ability to do business with half a billion customers
0:04:17 > 0:04:19is one of the common market's attributes
0:04:19 > 0:04:22but for Owens Logistics haulage business
0:04:22 > 0:04:24that is the biggest problem as well.
0:04:24 > 0:04:28They spend £12 million a year on diesel and lose out on work
0:04:28 > 0:04:31when lorries enter Britain full of cheaper diesel
0:04:31 > 0:04:35and offer a better price for similar work.
0:04:35 > 0:04:38The biggest problem we have is the competition
0:04:38 > 0:04:42from over in Europe and the big companies that come over
0:04:42 > 0:04:46and do all the work throughout the week and then go back to Europe
0:04:46 > 0:04:49at the weekend.
0:04:49 > 0:04:53The costs they pay are much less than what we have to pay.
0:04:53 > 0:04:57David Cameron's hope is to re-nationalise powers
0:04:57 > 0:05:01to make sure that the business world isn't obstructed by Europe.
0:05:01 > 0:05:04But Carwyn Jones harshly criticised the speech.
0:05:06 > 0:05:10When I go to other countries and look for investment
0:05:10 > 0:05:14from those countries, they know that we are a member of European Union.
0:05:14 > 0:05:18That's the market for them. The UK is too small, Wales is too small.
0:05:18 > 0:05:23What they want to know is if there is a way into the European market
0:05:23 > 0:05:27if we're in Wales. If that's not available they won't come here.
0:05:27 > 0:05:30There were 14 months between the promise
0:05:30 > 0:05:34and delivery of the referendum. It is quite a longer game this time.
0:05:34 > 0:05:36Questions are yet to be answered.
0:05:36 > 0:05:41In 1975, it was said that the debate would be settled once and for all.
0:05:41 > 0:05:44But the campaigning is just about to start again.
0:05:46 > 0:05:50I have never seen Margaret Thatcher in such a jumper!
0:05:50 > 0:05:53Glyn Davies, back in October,
0:05:53 > 0:05:58you said that a referendum in-or-out would be a huge mistake.
0:05:58 > 0:06:00Have you changed your mind?
0:06:00 > 0:06:03I think things have changed.
0:06:03 > 0:06:08For the first time now, a British prime minister has said
0:06:08 > 0:06:11if the British people will want to leave the European Union
0:06:11 > 0:06:14he is ready to do that.
0:06:14 > 0:06:15The problem for me before was
0:06:15 > 0:06:18I did not believe that people were ready to leave.
0:06:18 > 0:06:24If people want to leave, the Prime Minister will have to do that.
0:06:24 > 0:06:27For the first time David Cameron has said he is ready to do that.
0:06:27 > 0:06:32But isn't it strange that he says he will hold a referendum
0:06:32 > 0:06:35and if he wins it he'll be in discussions
0:06:35 > 0:06:38with other European Union members,
0:06:38 > 0:06:42and then he says he will fight for staying in Europe.
0:06:42 > 0:06:47What'll happen if the other European members aren't ready to do the deal?
0:06:47 > 0:06:49Will he be campaigning for a no vote?
0:06:49 > 0:06:52What David Cameron knows is that the relationship
0:06:52 > 0:06:56between the European Union and the UK,
0:06:56 > 0:06:59it is more fragile now than it has ever been.
0:06:59 > 0:07:05He wants to renegotiate things, renegotiate the relationship.
0:07:05 > 0:07:08After that, David Cameron thinks it is important
0:07:08 > 0:07:10we remain in the European Union.
0:07:10 > 0:07:12I am not sure myself which way I will vote yet.
0:07:12 > 0:07:16I remember the last time, I was against.
0:07:16 > 0:07:20I also remember when the campaign started in 1975
0:07:20 > 0:07:23the majority of people wanted to leave.
0:07:23 > 0:07:27But when the vote came, the majority voted to remain in.
0:07:27 > 0:07:30I expect the same thing this time.
0:07:31 > 0:07:34If I can pick up on that with you, Gareth,
0:07:34 > 0:07:38because you remember 1975 like me and Glyn but Eluned doesn't.
0:07:38 > 0:07:44What Harold Wilson did was buy time.
0:07:44 > 0:07:46He bought time before the referendum.
0:07:46 > 0:07:51Groups like the CBI went out and warned about the dangers.
0:07:51 > 0:07:53We're seeing the same thing again. Is it the same tactic?
0:07:53 > 0:07:58I think that is one big difference between 1975 and now.
0:07:58 > 0:08:03The fact is, there was a majority in the Labour Party back then
0:08:03 > 0:08:05that wanted to stay in the Union
0:08:05 > 0:08:09and the Conservative Party wanted to stay in.
0:08:09 > 0:08:14The campaign wasn't very fair for those who wanted out.
0:08:14 > 0:08:17I think that is the difference this time.
0:08:17 > 0:08:21Half of the Conservative party want to leave.
0:08:21 > 0:08:23Whatever the Cameron says,
0:08:23 > 0:08:29there is strong element within the members who want to leave.
0:08:29 > 0:08:32That makes a difference to the dynamics.
0:08:32 > 0:08:35I think we have had two opinion polls that suggest
0:08:35 > 0:08:37for the first time in years,
0:08:37 > 0:08:40when the question was asked how would you vote in a referendum,
0:08:40 > 0:08:44already there's a suggestion that remaining in the Union
0:08:44 > 0:08:45is leading the way.
0:08:45 > 0:08:49Yes, I think that will increase as the campaign goes on.
0:08:49 > 0:08:54But what I think is very sobering from what was said today
0:08:54 > 0:08:59is the fact that this uncertainty will effect on our economy.
0:08:59 > 0:09:01Carwyn Jones is correct.
0:09:01 > 0:09:05Who would want their headquarters in Wales or England or in Scotland
0:09:05 > 0:09:08if they think there's any possibility
0:09:08 > 0:09:10they won't be able to be in that free market.
0:09:10 > 0:09:13Eluned, you also move in the business circles
0:09:13 > 0:09:15as well as being a member of the Lords.
0:09:15 > 0:09:18What are you hearing from business people?
0:09:18 > 0:09:21As we heard from Mr Owens from Owens Logistics,
0:09:21 > 0:09:23there are business people who aren't happy
0:09:23 > 0:09:25with how Europe affects business.
0:09:25 > 0:09:28There are. What people haven't heard
0:09:28 > 0:09:31is this debate about the market.
0:09:31 > 0:09:36This is the biggest market we have. This is where our exports go.
0:09:36 > 0:09:43We export more to Ireland than we do to Russia, China and India combined.
0:09:43 > 0:09:47The Eurosceptics within the Conservative Party like that market.
0:09:47 > 0:09:51They will say, "that is what we were in favour of in 1975."
0:09:51 > 0:09:55What they are not in favour of are these laws about health and safety,
0:09:55 > 0:09:59workers' rights, this interference in matters
0:09:59 > 0:10:00that should be British matters.
0:10:00 > 0:10:05But what we have here is a club. There are rules in the club.
0:10:05 > 0:10:08What you can't do if you join a club is choose which parts of the club
0:10:08 > 0:10:10you want to be part of.
0:10:10 > 0:10:12That is the problem here.
0:10:12 > 0:10:16He has started a discussion now with a gun to the heads
0:10:16 > 0:10:20of the people he wants to negotiate with within the EU.
0:10:20 > 0:10:23He has said do what we want or we leave.
0:10:23 > 0:10:28That isn't something that will attract people
0:10:28 > 0:10:31in the Europe Union to his side.
0:10:31 > 0:10:34Isn't there a debate, if he worded it differently,
0:10:34 > 0:10:36some countries are within the Eurozone
0:10:36 > 0:10:38and there are countries in the Union that aren't.
0:10:38 > 0:10:43It makes sense for us to have a discussion at the different rules
0:10:43 > 0:10:47for the two sets of countries rather than just exceptions for Britain.
0:10:47 > 0:10:51I think everyone is quite happy to see improvements
0:10:51 > 0:10:55in the way the European Union works.
0:10:55 > 0:10:57What was interesting today
0:10:57 > 0:11:00was the sort of thing he was talking about were very indistinct,
0:11:00 > 0:11:02there was nothing concrete or definite
0:11:02 > 0:11:05within what he was talking about.
0:11:05 > 0:11:08I don't think that anyone would disagree
0:11:08 > 0:11:11with the sort of things he was talking about.
0:11:11 > 0:11:16But, the question is, would everyone else within the European Union
0:11:16 > 0:11:21be happy for us to say, that part will benefit our economy.
0:11:21 > 0:11:24We are competing with these countries
0:11:24 > 0:11:28and they are not going to be happy to give parts
0:11:28 > 0:11:32and give us more in order to compete better than them.
0:11:32 > 0:11:37What will happen if Angela Merkel, whether France turned round
0:11:37 > 0:11:40and said, look you are outside the Eurozone
0:11:40 > 0:11:44we are happy to have different rules for those outside the eurozone,
0:11:44 > 0:11:48but no special rules for Britain.
0:11:48 > 0:11:50It is possible they will say that.
0:11:50 > 0:11:53But we have to remember that every party within the Eurozone
0:11:53 > 0:11:57will have to change their relationship with the EU
0:11:57 > 0:11:59because it is going to...
0:11:59 > 0:12:03..well, move closer to the Eurozone.
0:12:03 > 0:12:07That happens to every other party.
0:12:07 > 0:12:11If we do that, Britain has no problem with that.
0:12:11 > 0:12:16I think Angela Merkel will in the end will be ready to see
0:12:16 > 0:12:19the relationship changing.
0:12:19 > 0:12:24Whether the change is enough for the British people to vote to remain,
0:12:24 > 0:12:28we will have to see.
0:12:28 > 0:12:34Another point is, Gareth says that more than half of Conservative MPs
0:12:34 > 0:12:38want to leave Europe. I don't think that is true at all.
0:12:38 > 0:12:41Half aren't happy with the relationship now.
0:12:41 > 0:12:46They think the European Union is interfering in everything.
0:12:46 > 0:12:47That is true.
0:12:47 > 0:12:51But I don't think that 50 percent want out.
0:12:51 > 0:12:54I don't think that will happen when the referendum comes.
0:12:54 > 0:12:58But what you have to remember is we're not talking about one country
0:12:58 > 0:13:00saying, yes you can have that deal.
0:13:00 > 0:13:04Every one of the 26 countries has to agree on this.
0:13:04 > 0:13:08I don't see that's possible in the next few years.
0:13:08 > 0:13:11We are coming up to the question of uncertainty.
0:13:11 > 0:13:15While this uncertainty continues nobody will be investing in Britain.
0:13:15 > 0:13:18Let's discuss what Ed Miliband should do.
0:13:18 > 0:13:23Ed Miliband has withstood the temptation to jump in before Cameron.
0:13:23 > 0:13:28But will he have to say we have to have this vote?
0:13:28 > 0:13:32We have to settle this matter once and for all.
0:13:32 > 0:13:34In the long term,
0:13:34 > 0:13:38I think if you change something completely, you will have to.
0:13:38 > 0:13:41But I think the tactics of saying,
0:13:41 > 0:13:45we want to change things and if we don't have our way we are leaving.
0:13:45 > 0:13:52It's like a child saying if he can't have the ball, he is not playing.
0:13:52 > 0:13:54It is an appalling tactic
0:13:54 > 0:13:58if you are trying to have some kind of influence on the club.
0:13:58 > 0:14:00I think that is wrong.
0:14:00 > 0:14:03That is why Ed Miliband is going to be wise by saying, no,
0:14:03 > 0:14:05we're not going to say that now.
0:14:05 > 0:14:10We want changes but I am not going to threaten to leave the Union.
0:14:10 > 0:14:13That's the correct tactic here.
0:14:13 > 0:14:17Is the lesson here, if the UK just like many European countries
0:14:17 > 0:14:21had held regular votes before treaties like Maastrich came in,
0:14:21 > 0:14:24we would not be in this situation.
0:14:24 > 0:14:29What has happened, our frustrations because people have seen other
0:14:29 > 0:14:34countries like Ireland, Denmark and so one getting these referendums.
0:14:34 > 0:14:38I don't think that makes sense.
0:14:38 > 0:14:45What we have, the type of way we vote in this country
0:14:45 > 0:14:49means that we elect leaders to make those decisions for us.
0:14:49 > 0:14:53In the long term, if we know what we are voting for
0:14:53 > 0:14:57maybe we will have to have a referendum.
0:14:57 > 0:15:00It makes no sense to offer that at the moment
0:15:00 > 0:15:04and to have this time of uncertainty.
0:15:04 > 0:15:05Many thanks to you.
0:15:05 > 0:15:08You know how it is, you wait a long time for an announcement
0:15:08 > 0:15:12on help for small businesses and then three come all at once.
0:15:14 > 0:15:18Yes, three announcements about making it easier for businesses
0:15:18 > 0:15:20to borrow money within days of each other.
0:15:20 > 0:15:23Coincidence or competition?
0:15:23 > 0:15:26The government were out of the blocks first.
0:15:26 > 0:15:30There will be reviewed chaired by a prominent Conservative member.
0:15:30 > 0:15:34There are always stories about how difficult it is
0:15:34 > 0:15:37for small businesses in Wales to have money
0:15:37 > 0:15:39to develop and grow business.
0:15:39 > 0:15:43But one of the things we don't have are facts.
0:15:43 > 0:15:47Appointing Dylan Jones Evans has surprised some.
0:15:47 > 0:15:50But there are no problems for his party, according to him.
0:15:50 > 0:15:56The Welsh government has announced that this review will take place
0:15:56 > 0:16:01but it will take about nine months before we will know
0:16:01 > 0:16:05the conclusions of that report.
0:16:05 > 0:16:08Small businesses want support now.
0:16:08 > 0:16:10The Welsh Government has to act now.
0:16:10 > 0:16:13At the beginning of the week the Conservatives launched
0:16:13 > 0:16:17their idea, six regional banks to lend money to businesses.
0:16:17 > 0:16:21At the same time Plaid Cymru were asking for a new bank,
0:16:21 > 0:16:24a Welsh bank, to do similar work.
0:16:24 > 0:16:27Who would have thought we wanted to annoy the Tories.
0:16:27 > 0:16:31Our ideas come from work we have done over the last few months
0:16:31 > 0:16:37and we are trying to perfect those ideas to have definite ideas
0:16:37 > 0:16:39in place through our economic commission.
0:16:39 > 0:16:45They had asked me this back in November to chair this review.
0:16:45 > 0:16:50But as you understand, sometimes the civil service machine
0:16:50 > 0:16:55moves very slow.
0:16:55 > 0:17:00It is more of a cock up than a conspiracy,
0:17:00 > 0:17:06the fact that in the same week we had the government coming out
0:17:06 > 0:17:10with the announcement that we were having this review,
0:17:10 > 0:17:14the Conservatives coming out with their West Wales policy.
0:17:14 > 0:17:17That was supposed to be announced the week before.
0:17:17 > 0:17:21Then, Plaid Cymru came back to say they came up with this in 2009.
0:17:22 > 0:17:27There is something funny about all the parties competing.
0:17:27 > 0:17:31This must a good thing that three parties
0:17:31 > 0:17:35have seen there is a problem and tried to come out with ideas
0:17:35 > 0:17:38to answer that problem.
0:17:38 > 0:17:42I think everyone has recognised that there is a problem.
0:17:42 > 0:17:44All the plans make sense.
0:17:44 > 0:17:47Everyone acknowledges the problem exists.
0:17:47 > 0:17:50We should try to work something out between us
0:17:50 > 0:17:52and get the best deal for the situation.
0:17:52 > 0:17:56It is also interesting that there are sources available
0:17:56 > 0:18:00which are already available from the Welsh Government.
0:18:00 > 0:18:06I think there are £70m available from different sources.
0:18:06 > 0:18:11It is clear that that is there, but it has to work better.
0:18:11 > 0:18:17It is not working as it should at the moment.
0:18:17 > 0:18:20Andrew R T Davies said during Prime Minister's Questions,
0:18:20 > 0:18:23this is our policy, we are giving it to you.
0:18:23 > 0:18:26We are not rowing over this. They are just ideas
0:18:26 > 0:18:30and we could reach a consensus on it, is that possible?
0:18:30 > 0:18:32I'm not sure about that.
0:18:32 > 0:18:35I haven't gone through the details,
0:18:35 > 0:18:40but every party in the Assembly knows what the problem is.
0:18:40 > 0:18:44Small businesses are not able to get funding
0:18:44 > 0:18:47to invest in their businesses.
0:18:47 > 0:18:50They are looking at new ideas.
0:18:50 > 0:18:53If we can work together,
0:18:53 > 0:19:00then we need to talk to the other parties to get a consensus.
0:19:00 > 0:19:04If it is successful, then I would welcome that.
0:19:04 > 0:19:09I do not mind which party has the ideas,
0:19:09 > 0:19:12I just want it to work.
0:19:12 > 0:19:15I'm not sure about consensus.
0:19:15 > 0:19:18I don't think that they are right.
0:19:18 > 0:19:22If the banks, who are making money out of investment
0:19:22 > 0:19:26aren't giving money to small businesses, we have to ask why.
0:19:26 > 0:19:31They don't think there's profit to be made from this.
0:19:31 > 0:19:35Public money will be given to small businesses to keep them going.
0:19:35 > 0:19:37That doesn't make sense.
0:19:37 > 0:19:42The argument, as I understand it, is that the banks are not lending
0:19:42 > 0:19:47because of the rules.
0:19:47 > 0:19:50The reason they are not borrowing
0:19:50 > 0:19:55is because they do not believe the economy will grow soon.
0:19:55 > 0:20:00Without a growth in the economy, then this venture will fail.
0:20:00 > 0:20:03Glyn, you wanted to say something.
0:20:03 > 0:20:07Everyone would like to see the economy growing.
0:20:07 > 0:20:12We know the problems that have faced the coalition since we came in.
0:20:12 > 0:20:15It is very difficult and everyone are doing their best.
0:20:15 > 0:20:20You cannot say the economy will grow,
0:20:20 > 0:20:24we have to look at ideas which will work in the economy
0:20:24 > 0:20:25as it is in Wales.
0:20:25 > 0:20:29That is what every party is trying to do, and I welcome that.
0:20:29 > 0:20:32Can you explain to Gareth what I tried to explain,
0:20:32 > 0:20:35that it is not the business plans that are at fault?
0:20:35 > 0:20:42The banks have been directed to balance their accounts.
0:20:42 > 0:20:46They didn't have enough money when the recession came.
0:20:46 > 0:20:50They're being encouraged to build-up their funds.
0:20:50 > 0:20:54Until they get to the point where they are safe
0:20:54 > 0:20:57and the Government is happy,
0:20:57 > 0:21:00then you have the problem of contradictory lines
0:21:00 > 0:21:05coming from the Government.
0:21:05 > 0:21:08They gave money to the banks to lend,
0:21:08 > 0:21:11but somehow that money isn't being lent?
0:21:11 > 0:21:15It is not being lent for all kinds of reasons.
0:21:15 > 0:21:19I think one reason is they don't believe the economy will grow.
0:21:19 > 0:21:27When you have the situation where the economy is flat lining, then,
0:21:27 > 0:21:31They haven't got any faith in these businesses.
0:21:31 > 0:21:36I believe, you may be wasting public money with a scheme like this.
0:21:36 > 0:21:39Glyn, in your constituency,
0:21:39 > 0:21:45do you have businesses coming to you telling you they have plans,
0:21:45 > 0:21:48but no-one is prepared to give them money?
0:21:48 > 0:21:53You can see that in public life, this has been happening for years.
0:21:53 > 0:21:58But that isn't more true so today
0:21:58 > 0:22:05than ever before, but we have to see what happens.
0:22:05 > 0:22:09Unemployment has gone down again today.
0:22:09 > 0:22:14A lot of people can see that businesses are growing
0:22:14 > 0:22:21and that is what is happening on the ground.
0:22:21 > 0:22:28A lot of businesses get money, but we are trying to improve things.
0:22:28 > 0:22:34Every party in the Assembly wants to improve the situation again.
0:22:34 > 0:22:38Are we going to see a new Welsh Bank?
0:22:38 > 0:22:42We will have to wait and see what this review comes up with.
0:22:42 > 0:22:45I hope that we can reach a consensus,
0:22:45 > 0:22:49because it seems every party wants to take action.
0:22:49 > 0:22:54There is a responsibility on the Assembly.
0:22:54 > 0:22:59The Welsh Assembly needs to invest and that is what is needed.
0:22:59 > 0:23:05If we can help the private sector to grow, then that is the way forward.
0:23:05 > 0:23:11There was a Welsh Bank, Julian Hodge established it.
0:23:11 > 0:23:15That was very conservative when dealing with businesses.
0:23:15 > 0:23:18You have to be careful that you don't establish a bank
0:23:18 > 0:23:21and that it takes the same action as current banks.
0:23:21 > 0:23:24It's going to look on the balance sheet
0:23:24 > 0:23:27and say it's not sure whether to invest.
0:23:27 > 0:23:32But banks that use public money will take a different stance?
0:23:32 > 0:23:35I don't think so. They shouldn't.
0:23:35 > 0:23:38If they're going to waste taxpayers' money,
0:23:38 > 0:23:41then we are throwing money away.
0:23:41 > 0:23:47As a voter, I wouldn't be very happy with that.
0:23:47 > 0:23:53I thought you were from Bangor, not Ceredigion!
0:23:53 > 0:23:56That is all for tonight. Thank you to our panel members.
0:23:56 > 0:24:01I will be back at the same time next week.
0:24:01 > 0:24:07For now, thank you for watching and good night.