0:00:00 > 0:00:04We have come a long way from CF99 tonight.
0:00:04 > 0:00:06We are in SW1 in Westminster.
0:00:06 > 0:00:11It's the politicians of this place who keep us company tonight.
0:00:30 > 0:00:36Welcome to CF99 live from London this week.
0:00:36 > 0:00:40Joining me tonight are Liberal Democrat Lord Roger Roberts,
0:00:40 > 0:00:42the MP for Llanelli, Nia Griffith and Jonathan Edwards,
0:00:42 > 0:00:46the Plaid Cymru MP for Caernarfon East and Dinefwr.
0:00:46 > 0:00:49Welcome to all.
0:00:49 > 0:00:52Respect is a big word these days.
0:00:52 > 0:00:55The Welsh equivalent does not have the same ring somehow.
0:00:55 > 0:01:01When David Cameron became PM, he said it should be the foundation
0:01:01 > 0:01:05for the relationship between Westminster and Cardiff Bay.
0:01:05 > 0:01:08Things haven't been that good.
0:01:08 > 0:01:11But to use the language of the street,
0:01:11 > 0:01:15have the two governments been dissing each other?
0:01:15 > 0:01:21Who better to ask that question than Betsan Powys.
0:01:27 > 0:01:31Jones the First Minister and Jones the Secretary of State
0:01:31 > 0:01:36shared the stage on Monday morning.
0:01:36 > 0:01:40They said the respect agenda was still there live.
0:01:40 > 0:01:47You could see both men shaking hands talking of creating jobs.
0:01:47 > 0:01:53But if the Respect agenda is still alive, how healthy is it?
0:01:59 > 0:02:02Let us consider the evidence.
0:02:04 > 0:02:09The personality is that emphasised the need for respect
0:02:09 > 0:02:12where David Cameron was concerned.
0:02:12 > 0:02:16He said that he respect devolution, the Welsh Assembly
0:02:16 > 0:02:21and the Welsh people to make different decisions.
0:02:21 > 0:02:24The Respect agenda to me really means something.
0:02:24 > 0:02:27I want there to be respect between the Welsh Assembly
0:02:27 > 0:02:30and the Westminster Parliament.
0:02:30 > 0:02:34The former President said this was all talk.
0:02:34 > 0:02:38The lack of understanding between ministers in Westminster
0:02:38 > 0:02:41and the Welsh government is clear to see.
0:02:41 > 0:02:46I think that Westminster is to blame for not taking things seriously.
0:02:46 > 0:02:49They are not taking Wales seriously.
0:02:49 > 0:02:53David Cameron and David Jones are positive towards the Assembly.
0:02:53 > 0:02:59We want to see the Assembly being successful.
0:02:59 > 0:03:02I definitely want to see the Assembly being successful.
0:03:07 > 0:03:11And the 'P' was soon challenged by the 'A'.
0:03:14 > 0:03:17The economic crisis brought the news that cuts would be made.
0:03:17 > 0:03:21It was feared that the cuts were too severe.
0:03:21 > 0:03:26There were fears that Wales was suffering worst than anyone else.
0:03:26 > 0:03:33If there is a cut in benefits, then more people will be homeless,
0:03:33 > 0:03:39where will the money come to help those? The Government of Wales.
0:03:39 > 0:03:43Cheryl Gillan has come to Wales.
0:03:44 > 0:03:48Cheryl Gillan had a less than respectful welcome
0:03:48 > 0:03:52when she first visited the Welsh Assembly.
0:03:52 > 0:03:55And her successor had the same welcome in Westminster.
0:03:55 > 0:03:58When the Prime Minister promised a Respect agenda,
0:03:58 > 0:04:02did he mean trying to block Welsh Assembly legislation
0:04:02 > 0:04:06abolishing wage protection for agricultural workers in Wales
0:04:06 > 0:04:11and tearing up a cross-border GCSE exam system without consultation?
0:04:11 > 0:04:16Can he even spell the word Respect? R-e-c-p-e-c-t by the way!
0:04:16 > 0:04:21I am proud of the relationship that is forming between myself
0:04:21 > 0:04:24and the First Minister.
0:04:24 > 0:04:29It's crucial that the two Governments are co-operating well.
0:04:29 > 0:04:37We are trying to create a strong economy for Wales.
0:04:38 > 0:04:43Hold on, what about the 'R'?
0:04:43 > 0:04:46Consider the railways.
0:04:46 > 0:04:50The coalition's decision to spend over £1 billion
0:04:50 > 0:04:54on the electrification of the line between Swansea and the valleys
0:04:54 > 0:04:58was a sign of respect for the future economic opportunities for Wales.
0:04:58 > 0:05:04And lastly, 'Ch' and the temptation to play at politics.
0:05:04 > 0:05:07This is what Labour are doing in Wales.
0:05:07 > 0:05:13They've cut health spending in Wales by £400 million.
0:05:13 > 0:05:15That is a 6.5% cut.
0:05:15 > 0:05:20Carwyn Jones is the only Labour leader
0:05:20 > 0:05:23in power in the British isles.
0:05:23 > 0:05:27He has a unique place within the Labour Party.
0:05:27 > 0:05:33He wants to be seen punishing the coalition in Westminster.
0:05:34 > 0:05:40If something goes wrong here, it is easy for him
0:05:40 > 0:05:45to say the fault lies at Westminster.
0:05:46 > 0:05:51Talking about the Respect agenda suits everybody,
0:05:51 > 0:05:54but undermining it can also be advantageous.
0:05:54 > 0:05:57So, the fight and the soundbite are more attractive
0:05:57 > 0:06:00than working on co-operating.
0:06:06 > 0:06:12It is inevitable that there is a bit of theatre
0:06:12 > 0:06:16when it comes to Prime Minister's Questions and so on,
0:06:16 > 0:06:19the First Minister can get up in the Assembly
0:06:19 > 0:06:23and point the finger at Westminster.
0:06:25 > 0:06:27Yes, that happens.
0:06:27 > 0:06:33But I was disappointed that the Tory Secretary in Westminster
0:06:33 > 0:06:39went to the Supreme Court to stop the Assembly
0:06:39 > 0:06:42from legislating on by-laws.
0:06:42 > 0:06:45Then he said that this was bizarre.
0:06:45 > 0:06:51He had a lot of time to waste and this is a great disappointment.
0:06:53 > 0:06:58Why did he not have faith in the Assembly?
0:06:58 > 0:07:04I think this shows he has no respect at all.
0:07:04 > 0:07:09Is there a difference between David Jones and Cheryl Gillan?
0:07:09 > 0:07:15There was a bit of a distance between her and her electorates,
0:07:15 > 0:07:21David Jones seems to at least be a part of Welsh political life.
0:07:23 > 0:07:27I cannot forget the fact that he was on the Welsh Affairs Committee
0:07:27 > 0:07:30which was opposed to devolution.
0:07:32 > 0:07:36He did not want to give Wales any power at all.
0:07:36 > 0:07:39I hope he can co-operate with the Welsh government
0:07:39 > 0:07:43because this is very important.
0:07:43 > 0:07:49I hope that he won't repeat anything that he has done in the past.
0:07:52 > 0:07:58It's inevitable they can co-operate when they agree on the point?
0:07:58 > 0:08:02Electrification of the South Wales railways for example.
0:08:02 > 0:08:06Co-operating is easy when you agree.
0:08:06 > 0:08:10The problem is that parties don't agree very often with each other.
0:08:10 > 0:08:15I believe David Jones is a totally different animal to Cheryl Gillan.
0:08:15 > 0:08:19She was an easy target being from the Home Counties.
0:08:19 > 0:08:23She was what you would expect from a Conservative government.
0:08:23 > 0:08:31- I think she had a feather hat as well!- I don't know about that.
0:08:31 > 0:08:34David Jones represents a Welsh seat, he can speak Welsh,
0:08:34 > 0:08:38he understands the context of the Welsh argument.
0:08:41 > 0:08:46Ian Paisley and Martin McGuinness were like the Chuckle Brothers.
0:08:46 > 0:08:50David Jones and the First Minister are like the Welsh chuckle Brothers.
0:08:50 > 0:08:54They have a lot of things in common.
0:08:54 > 0:08:58When we look at constitutional questions
0:08:58 > 0:09:04and the question about where powers should live,
0:09:04 > 0:09:08and where income tax powers should be formed,
0:09:08 > 0:09:12both are run the same path when it comes to that.
0:09:12 > 0:09:16Can I raise another point, Roger.
0:09:16 > 0:09:20The former Presiding Officer said
0:09:20 > 0:09:27perhaps the system in Westminster forget about devolution at times.
0:09:27 > 0:09:30They don't understand devolution. Do you think that's a problem?
0:09:30 > 0:09:35I can remember when it came to the election for Police Commissioners
0:09:35 > 0:09:40and they had printed ballot papers in English only.
0:09:40 > 0:09:46They had forgotten about Wales. I'm not sure if this happens often.
0:09:46 > 0:09:52I am glad that Jenny Randerson is deputy to David Jones.
0:09:52 > 0:09:57She was in favour of Wales and the Welsh language.
0:09:57 > 0:10:01It is a different issue when you talk about the Wales Office
0:10:01 > 0:10:04and the other at larger departments in Westminster.
0:10:04 > 0:10:09I was listening to a discussion about the Staffordshire hospital
0:10:09 > 0:10:13and I was listening to Cameron.
0:10:13 > 0:10:18He was just referring to England at all times.
0:10:18 > 0:10:23You get the feeling sometimes when they talk about legislation
0:10:23 > 0:10:28for England and Wales, that they have not considered Wales.
0:10:28 > 0:10:34We can hear statements in Westminster and they all refer to England.
0:10:34 > 0:10:42There are plans about a education in England and health in England
0:10:42 > 0:10:47- and so on.- With obligations to Wales. - Yes.
0:10:47 > 0:10:52I would hope that with Jenny's ministerial role
0:10:52 > 0:10:59within the Cabinet that things will improve.
0:10:59 > 0:11:02We should not make too much of it.
0:11:02 > 0:11:06Whitehall does not understand the Welsh context,
0:11:06 > 0:11:08they do not understand devolution.
0:11:08 > 0:11:12The Welsh government will work directly
0:11:12 > 0:11:16with departments down here rather than go through the Wales Office.
0:11:16 > 0:11:22I don't think that the Wales Office is big enough to deal with Wales.
0:11:22 > 0:11:25We discussed the marriage law this week,
0:11:25 > 0:11:28but they did not discuss the Church in Wales.
0:11:31 > 0:11:36It was as if they had forgotten about that completely.
0:11:36 > 0:11:38They had no interest.
0:11:38 > 0:11:42When people explained it, they weren't interested.
0:11:42 > 0:11:48It shows the Welsh government has to be considered equal.
0:11:48 > 0:11:54Is it not more difficult in the current situation
0:11:54 > 0:11:58than when Labour where in power in both institutions?
0:11:58 > 0:12:02The Welsh government had sectors in power here.
0:12:02 > 0:12:06Carwyn Jones can't do that in the same way.
0:12:06 > 0:12:10They were friends, Rhodri Morgan had friends in Government.
0:12:10 > 0:12:14The situation is completely different.
0:12:14 > 0:12:18A Conservative government goes in a completely different direction
0:12:18 > 0:12:22to what Labour does.
0:12:25 > 0:12:30But people in Whitehall need to consider what is happening elsewhere.
0:12:31 > 0:12:37You also have governments in Northern Ireland and Scotland as well.
0:12:37 > 0:12:43Some departments are aware that certain issues have been
0:12:43 > 0:12:46devolved but others are not.
0:12:46 > 0:12:53Some find it very hard. This is the first time things have changed.
0:12:53 > 0:12:58You can take NICE and health for example.
0:12:58 > 0:13:04Jonathan, the best example of that was in the agriculture industry.
0:13:04 > 0:13:09That was the talked about the situation in agriculture.
0:13:09 > 0:13:14The minister in Cardiff Bay was trying to work on this.
0:13:14 > 0:13:17Alun Davies was doing something.
0:13:17 > 0:13:21He was trying to get something different for Wales.
0:13:21 > 0:13:26But he was stopped by the Tories.
0:13:26 > 0:13:32The only policy that seems to be coming from the Labour in Wales
0:13:32 > 0:13:35is they want to blame Westminster for everything.
0:13:35 > 0:13:39They support a constitutional system.
0:13:39 > 0:13:42But they need to work with them in order to make sure policies
0:13:42 > 0:13:45come forward that affect Wales.
0:13:45 > 0:13:51I don't say that I disagree with Jonathan.
0:13:51 > 0:13:56Has the time of the Wales Office come to an end?
0:13:56 > 0:13:59Is this a result of all this?
0:13:59 > 0:14:02Would you agree with me, Jonathan?
0:14:02 > 0:14:05The nature of the relationship between the countries
0:14:05 > 0:14:09within the UK and central government is changing quickly.
0:14:09 > 0:14:15If you are 30 and thinking of getting married,
0:14:15 > 0:14:18you could have more choice in future.
0:14:18 > 0:14:21A vote took place in Parliament last night
0:14:21 > 0:14:24and the vote was in favour of same-sex marriage.
0:14:24 > 0:14:28This is the latest bill in a series of a period of nearly 50 years
0:14:28 > 0:14:33which has changed gay relationships in the eyes of the law.
0:14:33 > 0:14:37Elystan Morgan has been part of the legislation process
0:14:37 > 0:14:40from the beginning.
0:14:40 > 0:14:46I spoke him in the House of Lords earlier.
0:14:46 > 0:14:50Elystan Morgan, what is your reaction to this legislation
0:14:50 > 0:14:54that will come to the House later on?
0:14:54 > 0:14:57If this issue becomes law,
0:14:57 > 0:15:05then there will be far-reaching conclusions.
0:15:05 > 0:15:12This question has already torn the Conservative Party in two.
0:15:12 > 0:15:19The important thing about marriage is love and commitment.
0:15:20 > 0:15:28There is something to be said in favour of this.
0:15:28 > 0:15:34But others say you can call it whatever you like
0:15:34 > 0:15:40but you should not call it a marriage in the traditional sense.
0:15:40 > 0:15:45The civil partnership has been with us since 2004.
0:15:45 > 0:15:51If I remember correctly, you voted against previous laws
0:15:51 > 0:15:59but people have been proved wrong but things move on, don't they?
0:15:59 > 0:16:04If I remember correctly, I did speak against it.
0:16:04 > 0:16:10There is a danger that some people will be not only use this right
0:16:10 > 0:16:17but it will put a lot of people under a lot of pressure.
0:16:17 > 0:16:25To some extent, I was right.
0:16:25 > 0:16:28And things have been far better than what I anticipated.
0:16:28 > 0:16:34Do you expect the Lords will try
0:16:34 > 0:16:39and put barriers in place to stop this law?
0:16:39 > 0:16:44No, I don't think so.
0:16:44 > 0:16:47I would believe that a majority in the House of Lords
0:16:47 > 0:16:49would be in favour of it.
0:16:49 > 0:16:55Do you believe it would go the same way?
0:16:55 > 0:16:58I didn't vote.
0:16:58 > 0:17:01When the measure comes from the Commons to the House of Lords,
0:17:01 > 0:17:07then I believe I will vote in favour.
0:17:07 > 0:17:13I felt last night that selecting the right words is very difficult.
0:17:13 > 0:17:16I shouldn't really use the word 'different'
0:17:16 > 0:17:20but it's hard to choose words.
0:17:20 > 0:17:24I felt that some people have been locked out of civil life
0:17:24 > 0:17:28and the door was opened to them last night.
0:17:28 > 0:17:31Can I ask you as a minister,
0:17:31 > 0:17:37are you surprised by the reaction from different religious
0:17:37 > 0:17:39denominations in Wales?
0:17:39 > 0:17:43Many are very open to this
0:17:43 > 0:17:48and believe it should be up to people to choose.
0:17:48 > 0:17:52Are you surprised how liberal Welsh chapels have been on this issue?
0:17:52 > 0:17:57I am not sure if they are all as Liberal.
0:17:57 > 0:18:02I am sure I will see different views when I return home
0:18:02 > 0:18:07but we must respect people's opinions.
0:18:07 > 0:18:13It is a tradition in this place of love elsewhere.
0:18:13 > 0:18:16It is worth doing.
0:18:16 > 0:18:24Anything that confirms love and supports love is worth doing.
0:18:25 > 0:18:30I cannot remember another subject where the public opinion
0:18:30 > 0:18:35seems to have changed so much over the decades.
0:18:35 > 0:18:39There has been a transformation. Why do you believe this has happened?
0:18:39 > 0:18:44I think it's important that it has happened and it is nice to see
0:18:44 > 0:18:49that people are so open and honest about this situation.
0:18:49 > 0:18:54I can remember when we had Section 28 and this was terrible.
0:18:54 > 0:18:58People were afraid of saying if they were gay.
0:18:58 > 0:19:04It was important to stop homophobic bullying in schools.
0:19:04 > 0:19:08I'm glad we have moved on.
0:19:08 > 0:19:13People have seen other people being open
0:19:13 > 0:19:19and others have been encouraged to be open as well.
0:19:19 > 0:19:25People have been very candid and this has helped people to accept
0:19:25 > 0:19:32that they know people that are gay and the world has moved on.
0:19:33 > 0:19:40I know you three agree on the subject.
0:19:40 > 0:19:46Are you surprised by David Cameron's decision to take this forward?
0:19:46 > 0:19:52Do you admire him for this or did he make a political mistake
0:19:52 > 0:19:55by misreading the opposition in his own party?
0:19:55 > 0:20:00I think there is a moral point behind this.
0:20:00 > 0:20:03George Osbourne wrote in The Times saying
0:20:03 > 0:20:07that this is part of the Tories' strategy to redefine their party.
0:20:07 > 0:20:12The Conservatives wanted to detoxify their image.
0:20:12 > 0:20:15The first lesson you learn in politics
0:20:15 > 0:20:18is to choose your battles.
0:20:18 > 0:20:23The Conservatives wanted to push the Respect agenda,
0:20:23 > 0:20:28but the big story from last night is that the Conservative party
0:20:28 > 0:20:32was split it in two.
0:20:32 > 0:20:38Most of the Tory backbenchers voted against David Cameron last night.
0:20:38 > 0:20:44They rebelled against the Party Whip.
0:20:44 > 0:20:48It turned out yesterday that David Cameron
0:20:48 > 0:20:51was voting against the majority of his own party.
0:20:51 > 0:20:55I have been thinking, Nia.
0:20:55 > 0:20:59Apart from thinking that this was the right thing to do,
0:20:59 > 0:21:03I don't know why he did it.
0:21:03 > 0:21:06It has raised questions about his leadership.
0:21:06 > 0:21:11It is important that you take people with you when you are a good leader.
0:21:11 > 0:21:16You have to work as a team and you unite people behind you.
0:21:16 > 0:21:21That is going to be a problem for David Cameron now.
0:21:21 > 0:21:24The party seems to be divided.
0:21:24 > 0:21:29He has not shown a lot of leadership for his party.
0:21:29 > 0:21:35Every Conservative MP from Wales
0:21:35 > 0:21:39voted against the Prime Minister last night.
0:21:39 > 0:21:44Speaking to them privately they were quite supportive of the measure
0:21:44 > 0:21:50but they felt they were under pressure from the party in Wales.
0:21:50 > 0:21:53This is a policy that was close to the hearts of your party.
0:21:53 > 0:21:57For you as a party,
0:21:57 > 0:22:01this policy was close to your party's heart.
0:22:01 > 0:22:08Has Cameron strengthened the relationship with the Lib Dems?
0:22:08 > 0:22:15We did not expect him to take this so far.
0:22:15 > 0:22:19He didn't expect the reaction that he got from his backbenchers.
0:22:19 > 0:22:24139 voted against him. 134 or 135 in favour.
0:22:24 > 0:22:27I do not know of a Prime Minister
0:22:27 > 0:22:31that has been in a situation like this before.
0:22:31 > 0:22:36We all know that this topic splits the generations.
0:22:36 > 0:22:39Conservatives tend to be older
0:22:39 > 0:22:43so they are more likely to be opposed to this.
0:22:43 > 0:22:47Yes, I can see that.
0:22:47 > 0:22:53I am sure it is the same in the above parties as well.
0:22:53 > 0:23:00Older people are more traditional, but we have to work together.
0:23:00 > 0:23:06We have to make sure that this does not split society.
0:23:06 > 0:23:14Some of us are in favour but some are not and we understand that.
0:23:14 > 0:23:19The same with civil partnerships, people in time will accept it.
0:23:19 > 0:23:21You are all in agreement,
0:23:21 > 0:23:26does this mean you will all share a Jaguar back to your homes?
0:23:26 > 0:23:33Have you all travelled 100 metres in a Jaguar?
0:23:33 > 0:23:35I do not think so.
0:23:35 > 0:23:39I cannot believe he used that for 100 metres.
0:23:39 > 0:23:43It takes more time to climb in and out again than to walk.
0:23:47 > 0:23:50Would you like a spin in a Jaguar?
0:23:50 > 0:23:54I had a lift in one once from councillor Sian Thomas,
0:23:54 > 0:23:58Carmarthenshire Council's Chairman. She gave me a lift to Trimsaran.
0:23:58 > 0:24:02That is all for this evening. Thanks to my guests and to you.
0:24:02 > 0:24:05There won't be a programme next week
0:24:05 > 0:24:09but we will be back the following week in Cardiff Bay.
0:24:09 > 0:24:12Good evening.
0:24:12 > 0:24:17Subtitles by Red Bee Media