0:00:21 > 0:00:24Hello and welcome to Cardiff Bay for half an hour of political discussion.
0:00:24 > 0:00:28It has been a difficult time for the BBC, after lost its leader
0:00:28 > 0:00:31and maybe even its credibility and the faith of the public.
0:00:31 > 0:00:33What next?
0:00:33 > 0:00:36But will recent development affect the BBC's reputation with S4C?
0:00:37 > 0:00:40Also tonight, a brave decision or a gamble?
0:00:40 > 0:00:43Why does the Plaid Cymru leader want to represent a constituency
0:00:43 > 0:00:44rather than a region?
0:00:44 > 0:00:47Joining us in the Senedd are the Assembly Members
0:00:47 > 0:00:50Aled Roberts of the Liberal Democrats
0:00:50 > 0:00:52and Simon Thomas from Plaid Cymru.
0:00:52 > 0:00:55The Labour Party councillor, Huw Thomas
0:00:55 > 0:00:58and Dr Simon Brooks from Cardiff University.
0:00:58 > 0:00:59Welcome to you all.
0:00:59 > 0:01:03What happened at the Bryn Estyn children's home near Wrexham
0:01:03 > 0:01:07in the 1970s and 80s has been in the headlines right across Britain
0:01:07 > 0:01:10and beyond over the last week.
0:01:10 > 0:01:13Now some of the attention has turned to the BBC
0:01:13 > 0:01:17and the way the Corporation has reported what happened there.
0:01:18 > 0:01:22The Director General has resigned, other managers have stepped aside
0:01:22 > 0:01:26and there is a possibility some members of staff will be disciplined.
0:01:26 > 0:01:28It is a difficult time for the Corporation
0:01:28 > 0:01:31to discuss its relationship with S4C.
0:01:31 > 0:01:32Here is Arwyn Jones.
0:01:34 > 0:01:40The events of the last weeks have been terribly serious.
0:01:40 > 0:01:44They have also been a huge problem for the BBC managers.
0:01:44 > 0:01:48The wholly exceptional events of the past few weeks
0:01:48 > 0:01:52have led me to conclude that the BBC should appoint a new leader.
0:01:54 > 0:01:57With the resignation of the Director General
0:01:57 > 0:02:00and other possible disciplinary action on the horizon,
0:02:00 > 0:02:02these are difficult, dark days for the Corporation.
0:02:03 > 0:02:07So it's possible that the the main concern for the BBC Trustees
0:02:07 > 0:02:10won't be its relationship with S4C.
0:02:10 > 0:02:15This is the new contract with S4C with the Corporation responsible
0:02:15 > 0:02:20for the majority of the channel's money while keeping an arm's length away
0:02:20 > 0:02:23from S4C's editorial decisions.
0:02:23 > 0:02:26The nature of the relationship has been the subject
0:02:26 > 0:02:30of a public consultation which ended three weeks ago.
0:02:30 > 0:02:35The Welsh Language Society said it was worried about the one-sided
0:02:35 > 0:02:39content towards the BBC in the document in many ways.
0:02:39 > 0:02:42They say there is a lack of emphasis in the contract
0:02:42 > 0:02:46that would ensure S4C can maintain itself as an independent
0:02:46 > 0:02:53broadcaster strategically as well as editorially apart from the BBC.
0:02:53 > 0:02:55Wales Independent Producers,
0:02:55 > 0:02:59which represents the independent television companies,
0:02:59 > 0:03:02said they had several concerns.
0:03:02 > 0:03:05They included the BBC's ability to cut or stop S4C's budget
0:03:05 > 0:03:10in some situations and that it placed huge responsibility
0:03:10 > 0:03:12on the BBC Trust.
0:03:12 > 0:03:15A new crisis for Newsnight.
0:03:15 > 0:03:18Tonight, this programme apologises.
0:03:18 > 0:03:20But those aren't the only concerns.
0:03:20 > 0:03:24After all the problems within the BBC over the last few days
0:03:24 > 0:03:27some have been raising other concerns.
0:03:27 > 0:03:32In the discussions I had when I was the Chief Executive of S4C,
0:03:32 > 0:03:38we were told that the BBC has huge experience of editing programmes
0:03:38 > 0:03:42and of selling programmes abroad,
0:03:42 > 0:03:44become part of this process.
0:03:44 > 0:03:50But now there is a question mark over the credibility of the BBC.
0:03:50 > 0:03:54Maybe the BBC and S4C will have to reconsider where they will go
0:03:54 > 0:03:59in the situation that will stem from this crisis.
0:03:59 > 0:04:03As regards to this relationship, I don't agree with it at all.
0:04:03 > 0:04:06I think it was a mistake from the start.
0:04:06 > 0:04:12But I don't think the current crisis has anything to do with that.
0:04:12 > 0:04:18And we have to leave the processes go forward sensibly
0:04:18 > 0:04:22and we have to get the best deal for viewers in Wales.
0:04:22 > 0:04:27We can have another look at the relationship in a few years time.
0:04:27 > 0:04:31You cannot forget the terrible events
0:04:31 > 0:04:34which occurred at Bryn Estyn at the heart of this.
0:04:34 > 0:04:37But the way the BBC dealt with those incidents could have
0:04:37 > 0:04:41far-reaching consequences.
0:04:44 > 0:04:47Aled Roberts, what do you make of,
0:04:47 > 0:04:50not so much the editorial mistakes made by Newsnight,
0:04:50 > 0:04:57but of what's been done to try and improve the situation since then?
0:04:57 > 0:05:04It is important that the main story here is the child abuse.
0:05:04 > 0:05:08As one who represents North Wales, we shouldn't lose sight of that.
0:05:08 > 0:05:13But it's very difficult to understand what the managers were doing
0:05:13 > 0:05:16with regard to the way the story was portrayed from the beginning
0:05:16 > 0:05:18or how the programme was created.
0:05:18 > 0:05:23After that, were there journalists in North Wales
0:05:23 > 0:05:26who dealt with this story 20 years ago?
0:05:26 > 0:05:30And those people who listened to the whole hearing.
0:05:30 > 0:05:33Yes, it's difficult to believe there were people within the BBC
0:05:33 > 0:05:36involved in this story 20 years ago.
0:05:36 > 0:05:40So I'm wondering whether somebody in London contacted them
0:05:40 > 0:05:43to find out what was background to the story.
0:05:43 > 0:05:47If they had information on witnesses in North Wales.
0:05:47 > 0:05:50Simon Brooks, unlike the Hutton era,
0:05:50 > 0:05:54the Government has not stepped into this row,
0:05:54 > 0:06:00Downing Street has said there is no existential crisis for the BBC.
0:06:00 > 0:06:03Do you agree or is there a question mark about
0:06:03 > 0:06:05the future of the Corporation?
0:06:05 > 0:06:08I'm sure some members of Conservative Party
0:06:08 > 0:06:11would like to see the BBC strangle itself.
0:06:11 > 0:06:15Maybe that's something to do with it.
0:06:15 > 0:06:21But for me, the situation is very ironic.
0:06:21 > 0:06:26There were serious management problems within S4C
0:06:26 > 0:06:31and S4C paid the ultimate price for that,
0:06:31 > 0:06:35it was abolished as an independent broadcaster.
0:06:35 > 0:06:37It's impossible to pay a higher price.
0:06:37 > 0:06:40Since that happened, we have seen two crisis
0:06:40 > 0:06:45and two scandals to do with the media in London,
0:06:45 > 0:06:50within the tabloid press and Mr Murdoch and now within the BBC.
0:06:50 > 0:06:52At a very high level.
0:06:52 > 0:06:57Do you expect the BBC to pay the same price?
0:06:57 > 0:07:00No, I don't think Al-Jazeera will take over the BBC.
0:07:00 > 0:07:02I don't see that happening.
0:07:02 > 0:07:04But here in Wales, we should be aware
0:07:04 > 0:07:07of the irony of what's happened.
0:07:07 > 0:07:13It underlines how unfair it was what happened to S4C.
0:07:13 > 0:07:17The answer for the crisis in S4C was to remove the staff
0:07:17 > 0:07:19who had erred from their positions.
0:07:19 > 0:07:22I think that was the correct decision there,
0:07:22 > 0:07:25not that the Corporation will lose its independence.
0:07:25 > 0:07:29But now I think we need a mature discussion in Wales
0:07:29 > 0:07:32about how we ensure that S4C is as independent as possible
0:07:32 > 0:07:35within the current framework.
0:07:35 > 0:07:40Simon Thomas, the fact that all these structures are being discussed,
0:07:40 > 0:07:44the BBC is under attack,
0:07:44 > 0:07:48that opens up issues like the devolution of broadcasting.
0:07:48 > 0:07:49That's right.
0:07:49 > 0:07:53It opens up the debate that broadcasting in Wales
0:07:53 > 0:07:55is in the hands of one corporation.
0:07:55 > 0:08:00That is a danger for anyone who wants to see
0:08:00 > 0:08:02more comments being made,
0:08:02 > 0:08:05who want to see independence in that sector.
0:08:05 > 0:08:09It's important we concentrate on S4C's ability to be independent from
0:08:09 > 0:08:13the BBC or at least to have an independent editorial
0:08:13 > 0:08:18and strategic voice apart from the BBC.
0:08:18 > 0:08:21Safeguarding the Welsh language is very important to S4C
0:08:21 > 0:08:26and that's not something the BBC has always concentrated on.
0:08:26 > 0:08:30What about the devolution of broadcasting?
0:08:32 > 0:08:35I'm not sure.
0:08:35 > 0:08:42What is important is ensuring that the good things the BBC does
0:08:42 > 0:08:45are not lost in this mess.
0:08:45 > 0:08:49What's been put in place between S4C and the BBC in Wales
0:08:49 > 0:08:52I think that's the best thing that could have happened
0:08:52 > 0:08:55in that situation.
0:08:56 > 0:08:59But what we are seeing now, generally, is that almost
0:08:59 > 0:09:04all of our establishments in this country,
0:09:04 > 0:09:06whether it be in Wales or Britain,
0:09:06 > 0:09:11are under a wave of cynicism now from the public.
0:09:11 > 0:09:16The political scandal expenses, the media, the BBC.
0:09:17 > 0:09:20Will it affect our public lives?
0:09:20 > 0:09:26The fact that we can bring these establishments to account
0:09:26 > 0:09:28is a good thing in our society.
0:09:28 > 0:09:31The fact that any establishment, no matter how powerful,
0:09:31 > 0:09:33is open to this scrutiny.
0:09:33 > 0:09:36It's a pity these things have happened.
0:09:36 > 0:09:40I'm wondering how much of this is a pay-back to the BBC
0:09:40 > 0:09:44after they won the lead in the Leveson Inquiry.
0:09:44 > 0:09:47Simon Brooks, you have made it clear that you think S4C
0:09:47 > 0:09:49has been hard done by,
0:09:49 > 0:09:55are you calling for the relationship to be looked at again?
0:09:55 > 0:09:59That political decision has been made.
0:09:59 > 0:10:03I think we have to look at how we can restrict the damage.
0:10:03 > 0:10:08I would want to avoid this idea that the BBC
0:10:08 > 0:10:11and S4C move into the same building.
0:10:11 > 0:10:16I think that creates an atmosphere where everyone
0:10:16 > 0:10:19lives in the same bowl, in the same fish bowl.
0:10:21 > 0:10:22It would save money?
0:10:22 > 0:10:25I think it would be incredible if S4C moved from Cardiff,
0:10:25 > 0:10:30put some geographic distance between S4C and the BBC.
0:10:30 > 0:10:32We need to have serious discussions now
0:10:32 > 0:10:37to ensure that within the strict framework we have,
0:10:37 > 0:10:41we can't change the framework, but S4C needs to keep its identity.
0:10:41 > 0:10:43Huw, you're shaking your head.
0:10:43 > 0:10:46- Cardiff is the capital of Wales... - You're a Cardiff councillor!
0:10:48 > 0:10:52I've also got the culture remit. Cardiff is the capital of Wales.
0:10:52 > 0:10:55It is unthinkable that S4C would not be in the capital.
0:10:55 > 0:10:59Do you want the relationship to be reconsidered?
0:10:59 > 0:11:03No, I think S4C was wronged two or three years ago
0:11:03 > 0:11:06but I don't think this Newsnight business is a reason to rethink it.
0:11:06 > 0:11:10The agreement has been made and there has been
0:11:10 > 0:11:13a lot of discussion between S4C and the BBC on the way forward.
0:11:13 > 0:11:15We have to see that it works now.
0:11:15 > 0:11:18The next step for broadcasting is devolution in my opinion.
0:11:18 > 0:11:21I don't think we need to rethink this relationship.
0:11:21 > 0:11:24Aled, should broadcasting be devolved?
0:11:24 > 0:11:26There is an argument for that.
0:11:26 > 0:11:29We have always been in favour,
0:11:29 > 0:11:33but it's obvious people in London are against it.
0:11:33 > 0:11:36There is no willingness to discuss it at the moment
0:11:36 > 0:11:38from the British Government.
0:11:38 > 0:11:43S4C has been under the spotlight, the BBC is under pressure,
0:11:43 > 0:11:47nobody is discussing ITV and Philip Schofield
0:11:47 > 0:11:52giving that list of names to the Prime Minister.
0:11:52 > 0:11:55But the difference is public money.
0:11:55 > 0:12:02Has the bar in the public world been raised too high?
0:12:02 > 0:12:04No, I agree with Huw.
0:12:04 > 0:12:08I think it's important that in an open society
0:12:08 > 0:12:11we are scrutinised as public servants.
0:12:11 > 0:12:18I do see inconsistencies in the way the BBC has been dealt with
0:12:18 > 0:12:23and the fact that directors and Philip Schofield on the programme...
0:12:26 > 0:12:30Well, I wasn't ready to accept what he did.
0:12:30 > 0:12:32But they don't use licence money.
0:12:32 > 0:12:37There are still standards in all forms of broadcast.
0:12:37 > 0:12:45But, Simon, the BBC has its critics which is fair at the moment.
0:12:46 > 0:12:51But it also has its enemies. And the enemies are after blood here.
0:12:56 > 0:13:00Some people want to split the BBC up into two corporations and weaken it.
0:13:00 > 0:13:05The fact that the BBC is active on many levels.
0:13:05 > 0:13:11There is an argument about that, maybe the BBC has become too big.
0:13:11 > 0:13:17But 18 month ago I was fighting to keep Six Music on the radio,
0:13:17 > 0:13:20and S4C and Radio Cymru.
0:13:20 > 0:13:24It's important that we put it in context.
0:13:24 > 0:13:28I think the BBC are expected to behave better than ITV.
0:13:28 > 0:13:32The only people who revealed the name of this person is ITV
0:13:32 > 0:13:36on a card over the table to Cameron.
0:13:36 > 0:13:40It's been a big week for the Plaid Cymru leader Leanne Wood,
0:13:40 > 0:13:44she reached an agreement with the Government about the budgets
0:13:44 > 0:13:47and there was an announcement about her future.
0:13:47 > 0:13:51She won't try and regain her regional seat.
0:13:51 > 0:13:53It is certainly a risk,
0:13:53 > 0:13:57but is Leanne Wood's decision a brave one or a foolish one?
0:13:57 > 0:14:00Bethan Lewis reports.
0:14:00 > 0:14:05I can announce that the new leader of Plaid Cymru is Leanne Wood.
0:14:09 > 0:14:13The eight months since she was elected leader have been stable
0:14:13 > 0:14:14for Leanne Wood.
0:14:14 > 0:14:19No huge crisis and nothing to light the imagination.
0:14:19 > 0:14:23But she says she wants to offer real leadership
0:14:23 > 0:14:27when she announced that she is going to stand in a constituency seat,
0:14:27 > 0:14:32instead of on the regional list in 2016.
0:14:32 > 0:14:37I want to see every child, woman and man to have the chance to succeed.
0:14:37 > 0:14:42If that is to happen, Wales needs new leadership.
0:14:42 > 0:14:46That is behind my decision.
0:14:46 > 0:14:50The next big decision will be choosing a constituency.
0:14:50 > 0:14:53That is one for the members, she says,
0:14:53 > 0:14:55but there is speculation.
0:14:55 > 0:14:58Plaid Cymru succeeded in the valleys in 1999.
0:14:58 > 0:15:02And maybe a seat in this area would be a natural choice.
0:15:02 > 0:15:07But Plaid Cymru are over 6,500 votes behind Labour in the Rhonda.
0:15:07 > 0:15:12Winning in Islwyn, Caerphilly, or beyond the valleys in Neath
0:15:12 > 0:15:16would be very ambitious says the person who stood in a constituency
0:15:16 > 0:15:21and lost.
0:15:21 > 0:15:26I admire her decision. I did the same thing.
0:15:26 > 0:15:30And I'm sure I did the right thing.
0:15:30 > 0:15:33If you're a member of a political party
0:15:33 > 0:15:36and you believe in the principles of that party,
0:15:36 > 0:15:41then it's only right that you put yourself forward
0:15:41 > 0:15:43for people to elect you.
0:15:43 > 0:15:49The leader has set a challenge for other members in Plaid Cymru.
0:15:49 > 0:15:54One member suggests that established members
0:15:54 > 0:15:59should fight it out in the constituencies.
0:16:02 > 0:16:08I'll do whatever will contribute to Plaid Cymru
0:16:08 > 0:16:11winning the most votes in the Assembly.
0:16:11 > 0:16:16It's a matter for the electorate committee in Carmarthen East,
0:16:16 > 0:16:20Dinefwr and the party centrally.
0:16:20 > 0:16:27I'm ready to do what I can to respond to the challenge.
0:16:27 > 0:16:34But one member is not happy with the decision.
0:16:34 > 0:16:38It's like she is in the last chance saloon.
0:16:38 > 0:16:43It's not the last chance salon. You have to ask why she is doing it.
0:16:43 > 0:16:47Is she fed up of being a leader already?
0:16:47 > 0:16:52We will hear in the Spring in what seat she will stand.
0:16:52 > 0:16:56And it will give Leanne Wood three years to campaign to try
0:16:56 > 0:16:59and change the political map.
0:16:59 > 0:17:06- Simon Thomas, is it brave or foolish? - It's brave.
0:17:06 > 0:17:10But it is about changing the political map.
0:17:10 > 0:17:15If we're going to get into government here,
0:17:15 > 0:17:20we have to win more constituencies, we have to break new ground.
0:17:20 > 0:17:22There is nothing better than the leader
0:17:22 > 0:17:27putting her credibility on the line and showing leadership.
0:17:27 > 0:17:31I can see the idea behind it, but the timing is odd.
0:17:31 > 0:17:34Three and a half years before the election
0:17:34 > 0:17:37who knows what the political climate will be there?
0:17:37 > 0:17:41I agree with Simon, I think it is brave,
0:17:41 > 0:17:45even if you disagree with her politically,
0:17:45 > 0:17:48you have to acknowledge that.
0:17:48 > 0:17:52The timing is odd in the sense that the politics
0:17:52 > 0:17:57in the next Assembly will be influenced
0:17:57 > 0:18:01by what happens in Scotland.
0:18:01 > 0:18:05- And the next general election.- Yes,
0:18:05 > 0:18:09but more by what happens in Scotland.
0:18:09 > 0:18:11In Scotland decides to become independent,
0:18:11 > 0:18:16you can understand Leanne Wood then feeling she has to try and grab
0:18:16 > 0:18:24this opportunity historically to lead the nation wards independence.
0:18:24 > 0:18:30But why make that decision now instead of in 2014?
0:18:33 > 0:18:37Aled Roberts, as a regional list member, what do you think?
0:18:37 > 0:18:40Does it make you feel a little bit inadequate?
0:18:40 > 0:18:42That question has been raised.
0:18:42 > 0:18:45I think there is a role for regional members,
0:18:45 > 0:18:48if you believe in a proportional system.
0:18:48 > 0:18:52I'm ready to defend that.
0:18:52 > 0:18:57But what is interesting is whether it's brave or not,
0:18:57 > 0:19:02it depends on which constituency is picked.
0:19:02 > 0:19:05If she moves into a constituency in North Wales,
0:19:05 > 0:19:07it won't make a difference.
0:19:07 > 0:19:11She has to stand in the valleys.
0:19:11 > 0:19:16The aim of this is to increase the number of Plaid Cymru members.
0:19:16 > 0:19:19That has to do with Leanne Wood's character.
0:19:19 > 0:19:23Plaid Cymru believes some of these regional marginal seats
0:19:23 > 0:19:25are radical but some are Conservative.
0:19:25 > 0:19:30Aberconwy, Anglesey, Carmarthen West.
0:19:30 > 0:19:32That is not where Leanne Wood will shine.
0:19:32 > 0:19:38Will the Labour Party be ready for her in the valleys?
0:19:39 > 0:19:44I think Labour will look forward too the battle.
0:19:44 > 0:19:49We have to wait and see where she stands.
0:19:49 > 0:19:53It will also be up to the Plaid Cymru members in seat,
0:19:53 > 0:19:59so she can't be presumptuous about where she will be selected.
0:19:59 > 0:20:05But the truth is Plaid Cymru will select this seat and campaign
0:20:05 > 0:20:11for that three years and put a lot of their resources into that seat,
0:20:11 > 0:20:17so you could match them, because your resources
0:20:17 > 0:20:21will be poured in as well in the same way as Rhuanedd Richards
0:20:21 > 0:20:27will pour in resources for the Plaid Cymru campaign.
0:20:27 > 0:20:30Of course we will do that,
0:20:30 > 0:20:34but we will also look to win seats in West Wales as well.
0:20:34 > 0:20:39The Labour Party represents people all around Wales.
0:20:39 > 0:20:43Simon Thomas, what about this idea of moving the big guns
0:20:43 > 0:20:47out of safest seat and bringing fresh names in?
0:20:47 > 0:20:52I think there will be a discussion about that over the next few months.
0:20:52 > 0:20:56Leanne Wood says she wants to see this happening
0:20:56 > 0:21:00over the next six to nine months.
0:21:00 > 0:21:05Every party is guilty of this and we have left things too late
0:21:05 > 0:21:11before an election, before deciding strategically where people will go.
0:21:11 > 0:21:15Maybe this is too soon, but when is the right time?
0:21:15 > 0:21:18I admire what you have done in Plaid Cymru
0:21:18 > 0:21:21because in places like Catalonia and Scotland,
0:21:21 > 0:21:24something has changed.
0:21:24 > 0:21:29If Scotland does vote in favour of independence,
0:21:29 > 0:21:33I don't doubt that Plaid Cymru's vote will increase.
0:21:33 > 0:21:39If that's the case, some of those seats in the valleys are winnable.
0:21:39 > 0:21:45Aled, we heard from Nerys Evans that there was another member,
0:21:45 > 0:21:50Jonathan Morgan, who won the first time, but lost last time.
0:21:50 > 0:21:54If he had stayed on the list,
0:21:54 > 0:21:58he would be the Conservative leader here today.
0:21:58 > 0:22:02So there are dangers with this.
0:22:02 > 0:22:06There are personal choices to be made.
0:22:06 > 0:22:11I would agree with you, two years is a long time in politics.
0:22:11 > 0:22:16It will depend on what happens with the economy as well.
0:22:16 > 0:22:20I think there is also a question about where Plaid Cymru
0:22:20 > 0:22:22go with their policies.
0:22:22 > 0:22:27In North Wales, there's a decision between traditional nationalism
0:22:27 > 0:22:31and a more social approach.
0:22:31 > 0:22:37There are also dangers of staying on the list.
0:22:37 > 0:22:43It raises questions about the system we have in Wales.
0:22:43 > 0:22:45We have to look at it.
0:22:45 > 0:22:50If someone on the list can't represent their constituency,
0:22:50 > 0:22:55we need more fist past the post members.
0:22:55 > 0:22:59That would suit the Labour Party.
0:22:59 > 0:23:05Who sets up a system that favours their party? That never happens!!
0:23:05 > 0:23:11Adam Price is also being mentioned,
0:23:11 > 0:23:15but he would want a constituency, wouldn't he?
0:23:15 > 0:23:19Maybe, or he could stand on the list.
0:23:19 > 0:23:23I don't think you have to be in a constituency
0:23:23 > 0:23:26to be an equal member of the Assembly.
0:23:26 > 0:23:30But I think as a leader, it is an excellent thing for Leanne Wood,
0:23:30 > 0:23:34because I think her leadership has been a bit flat so far.
0:23:34 > 0:23:38So it is an opportunity for her to reinvent herself.
0:23:38 > 0:23:45She hasn't been in the job long enough to reinvent herself yet.
0:23:45 > 0:23:48But it has pleased you?
0:23:48 > 0:23:52I think she is being brave and it is better that she has done it.
0:23:52 > 0:23:57Thank you for your company tonight. That is it for now.
0:23:57 > 0:24:04- We're back next Wednesday. until then, goodbye.- Goodbye.