0:00:19 > 0:00:21Good evening
0:00:21 > 0:00:25and welcome to CF99 live from the Assembly in Cardiff Bay.
0:00:25 > 0:00:31Coming up tonight: How keen are people in Wales on Brussels?
0:00:31 > 0:00:34We'll have the answer from our poll,
0:00:34 > 0:00:37which may surprise you, and disappoint many in Cardiff Bay.
0:00:37 > 0:00:40And the Minister rejects the recommendations
0:00:40 > 0:00:43of the Welsh Language Commissioner.
0:00:43 > 0:00:46What does it mean for the language policy
0:00:46 > 0:00:48and the role of the Commissioner?
0:00:48 > 0:00:51We have appointed people as commissioners
0:00:51 > 0:00:54because they have them in other countries,
0:00:54 > 0:00:57but we don't need them in Wales.
0:00:57 > 0:01:02Joining us are Iestyn Davies from the Federation of Small Businesses,
0:01:02 > 0:01:05The Chair of the Positif Communication Company
0:01:05 > 0:01:08and marketing lecturer at Glamorgan University, Llyr Roberts,
0:01:08 > 0:01:13and from Westminster, the Labour MP for Clwyd South, Susan Elan Jones.
0:01:13 > 0:01:16- Welcome.- Thank you.
0:01:16 > 0:01:20More on the interesting results of our survey in a moment.
0:01:20 > 0:01:24First, the Commissioner, the Minister and the language.
0:01:24 > 0:01:29This week, Leighton Andrews rejected the Welsh Language Commissioner's
0:01:29 > 0:01:34findings on language standards - the rules governing the Welsh language
0:01:34 > 0:01:37services public bodies and some private companies should provide.
0:01:37 > 0:01:41The decision has disappointed language campaigners
0:01:41 > 0:01:43and has raised questions over the role of the Commissioner.
0:01:43 > 0:01:46James Williams reports.
0:01:53 > 0:01:57Preparing for a long journey, but are those who try to promote
0:01:57 > 0:02:00the language travelling in the right direction
0:02:00 > 0:02:03or going around in circles?
0:02:03 > 0:02:07There's no point in a Commissioner if it's not independent.
0:02:08 > 0:02:13We need a Welsh speaker to help us make more use of the language.
0:02:13 > 0:02:16John Walter Jones also said that legislation
0:02:16 > 0:02:20is not the most important issue when promoting the language,
0:02:20 > 0:02:23but people like Becky James, cycling's new star.
0:02:26 > 0:02:29But the legislation has been central
0:02:29 > 0:02:31to the talks over the language this week,
0:02:31 > 0:02:35and Leighton Andrews's decision to reject the findings of
0:02:35 > 0:02:37the Welsh Language Commissioner.
0:02:37 > 0:02:42I didn't think the findings are clear.
0:02:42 > 0:02:47I don't think they explain the responsibility
0:02:47 > 0:02:51people have in every sector.
0:02:51 > 0:02:56The purpose of the standards is to explain how public bodies
0:02:56 > 0:02:59and private companies should use the Welsh language.
0:02:59 > 0:03:03And discuss that kind of services people can expect to receive
0:03:03 > 0:03:05through the medium of Welsh.
0:03:05 > 0:03:10I think we have to continue with the system we have at the moment.
0:03:10 > 0:03:14We have to make sure there is pressure on the Commissioner
0:03:14 > 0:03:19and the Minister to make sure this delay is does not last too long.
0:03:19 > 0:03:24I think the census has proved we need to tackle this quickly
0:03:24 > 0:03:28and ensure the Welsh language flourishes.
0:03:28 > 0:03:33And there is a lot of work to be done to make sure
0:03:33 > 0:03:36that language policies are on the right track.
0:03:36 > 0:03:4020% of people in Wales or 582,368
0:03:40 > 0:03:44recorded themselves as Welsh speakers in 2001.
0:03:44 > 0:03:48But ten years later, there was a fall of 20,000 people.
0:03:48 > 0:03:53The challenge is clear, but in what direction should we travel?
0:03:53 > 0:03:58The Commissioner, Meri Huws, said her officials
0:03:58 > 0:04:02and some Ministers will move forward with developing the standards.
0:04:02 > 0:04:07But some have raised questions over the purpose of a Commissioner.
0:04:07 > 0:04:12Maybe we have to look again at what is the role of the Commissioner?
0:04:12 > 0:04:17It is a shame because there is a lot of work to be done,
0:04:17 > 0:04:23and I don't want to delay the work that needs to be done.
0:04:23 > 0:04:28Once again, we are going down the legislative path,
0:04:28 > 0:04:32and I've never believed that is the right way to go
0:04:32 > 0:04:35where the Welsh language is concerned.
0:04:35 > 0:04:39I have read the letter from the Minister to the Commissioner,
0:04:39 > 0:04:43and it is clear to me that his officials
0:04:43 > 0:04:48have been interfering with the work of the Commissioner.
0:04:48 > 0:04:53They have been telling her how to do her job,
0:04:53 > 0:04:58and there's no independence in that.
0:04:58 > 0:05:04If the Commissioner isn't independent,
0:05:04 > 0:05:08what's the point having a Commissioner?
0:05:08 > 0:05:13The Welsh Language Society has asked what the priority
0:05:13 > 0:05:15is for the Minister.
0:05:15 > 0:05:18The big companies or the language?
0:05:18 > 0:05:22A panel established to look at links between the language
0:05:22 > 0:05:26and economic development, companies now expect to have to provide
0:05:26 > 0:05:29information through the medium of Welsh.
0:05:29 > 0:05:35Large companies have expressed concern regarding
0:05:35 > 0:05:39costs of implementing Welsh language services.
0:05:39 > 0:05:43But I think most large companies
0:05:43 > 0:05:50have become familiar with providing a Welsh language service.
0:05:50 > 0:05:55There's a long way to go before final standards are implemented.
0:05:55 > 0:05:58After going in different directions, will the Minister
0:05:58 > 0:06:02and the Commissioner reach the end of the journey together?
0:06:02 > 0:06:04On your bike, mate!
0:06:04 > 0:06:08We asked for an interview with the Commissioner,
0:06:08 > 0:06:10but she rejected our invite.
0:06:10 > 0:06:15Susan Elan Jones, does this seem like a mess to you?
0:06:15 > 0:06:20Two years after the legislation was passed,
0:06:20 > 0:06:24we are still in the middle of nowhere.
0:06:24 > 0:06:28I don't think it is a mess,
0:06:28 > 0:06:32but I'm sure many people will feel disappointed.
0:06:32 > 0:06:35I can sympathise with that,
0:06:35 > 0:06:41but the most important thing is to make sure we get the strategy right.
0:06:41 > 0:06:46This morning, I was thinking back at the mess in Westminster
0:06:46 > 0:06:55regarding the West Coast Main Line. When they didn't get that right.
0:06:55 > 0:06:59Legal action was taken, and it ended up in the courts.
0:06:59 > 0:07:03We don't want that to happen.
0:07:03 > 0:07:07This is the first time that we'll have this legislation.
0:07:07 > 0:07:10We have got to get this legislation right.
0:07:10 > 0:07:14The Welsh Language Society says the Minister
0:07:14 > 0:07:18has yielded to pressure from big companies.
0:07:18 > 0:07:22But he has denied that.
0:07:22 > 0:07:25The Minister has said if they had accepted these recommendations,
0:07:25 > 0:07:29the Commissioner would be back and forth to the courts every week
0:07:29 > 0:07:33because the strategy was not clear enough.
0:07:33 > 0:07:37- What explanation have you got? - I don't accept that.
0:07:37 > 0:07:41I don't accept that there is political pressure between
0:07:41 > 0:07:46the Minister, Leighton Andrews, and other bodies in Wales.
0:07:46 > 0:07:51I think we need to make sure the strategy is clear and transparent.
0:07:51 > 0:07:57We have to expect that from any legislation.
0:07:57 > 0:08:01But I have to ask where the dialogue
0:08:01 > 0:08:06has been between the Commissioner's office and the Minister's office.
0:08:06 > 0:08:09Why has this dispute happened in the first place?
0:08:09 > 0:08:14They should be communicating properly.
0:08:14 > 0:08:20If we want the Commissioner to be independent,
0:08:20 > 0:08:27isn't it a good thing that they have not been working too closely?
0:08:27 > 0:08:30We have to make sure that we understand what the system is.
0:08:30 > 0:08:34The problem could stem from the legislation.
0:08:34 > 0:08:39The Commissioner's responsibility is to form the standards,
0:08:39 > 0:08:43but the Government puts them forward to the Assembly
0:08:43 > 0:08:45to create legislation.
0:08:45 > 0:08:48That could be a problem with the system.
0:08:48 > 0:08:53Maybe the Assembly should set the standards
0:08:53 > 0:08:57and the Commissioner should maintain those standards.
0:08:57 > 0:09:03I agree. This legislation isn't working.
0:09:03 > 0:09:07I still miss the Welsh Language Board.
0:09:07 > 0:09:10I don't think there's a point in what John Walter is doing.
0:09:10 > 0:09:13This is the system we have.
0:09:13 > 0:09:19I read these standards myself today, and I didn't oppose anything.
0:09:19 > 0:09:23I agreed with everything because there are some strong ideas,
0:09:23 > 0:09:28but there are 37 of them, and they are very long.
0:09:28 > 0:09:31They were getting into far too much detail.
0:09:31 > 0:09:35I think it's a good thing that the civil servants
0:09:35 > 0:09:38have now had a chance to look at them,
0:09:38 > 0:09:42and they will be able to work with the Commissioner to simplify them.
0:09:42 > 0:09:47I think 15 or 20 would be enough.
0:09:47 > 0:09:51Susan Elan, do you long for the days of the Welsh Language Board?
0:09:51 > 0:09:57We used to have a system that worked well enough
0:09:57 > 0:10:00if it had been policed a little bit more effectively.
0:10:00 > 0:10:05I don't agree with that. We had to have this new legislation.
0:10:05 > 0:10:08If you look at the census figures,
0:10:08 > 0:10:13we have seen a significant fall in the number of Welsh speakers.
0:10:13 > 0:10:18We have to look at a solution to tackle that.
0:10:19 > 0:10:22I think we're on the right track.
0:10:27 > 0:10:30What worries me in this present system
0:10:30 > 0:10:34is who is responsible for promoting the Welsh language?
0:10:34 > 0:10:37We have a crisis with the census figures,
0:10:37 > 0:10:40and I don't see any leadership.
0:10:40 > 0:10:47We did have some pioneering figures in the Welsh Language Board.
0:10:47 > 0:10:51The Commissioner and the Government are responsible.
0:10:51 > 0:10:58We know that services are provided through the medium of Welsh,
0:10:58 > 0:11:00which are used by very few people.
0:11:00 > 0:11:05I'm not saying those services are not important,
0:11:05 > 0:11:09but there are things that are more effective than having
0:11:09 > 0:11:15a helpline which may be used by a thousand people in Wales.
0:11:15 > 0:11:20We need a strategy which promotes and normalises the use of Welsh.
0:11:20 > 0:11:28Many people in Wales who are able to speak Welsh mostly use English.
0:11:28 > 0:11:34We have to make sure that we use the language in many different ways.
0:11:34 > 0:11:40Personally, I'm not interested in which language
0:11:40 > 0:11:44someone receives a letter in.
0:11:44 > 0:11:49I am more concerned about day-to-day activities
0:11:49 > 0:11:52and those activities being available through the medium of Welsh.
0:11:52 > 0:11:58Susan, do you agree that this is where the focus should be?
0:11:58 > 0:12:05The battle is going to be won or lost in schools across Wales.
0:12:07 > 0:12:11There are two very important elements here.
0:12:11 > 0:12:16We have to promote the language among young people.
0:12:16 > 0:12:21Wales has got to be seen as a community language across Wales.
0:12:21 > 0:12:24Individuals need to have the right to use Welsh.
0:12:24 > 0:12:27But that right isn't worth anything
0:12:27 > 0:12:30unless you have an opportunity to use Welsh.
0:12:30 > 0:12:36There is a fake agenda here. There is fake tension here.
0:12:36 > 0:12:39Unless we accept that we need more opportunities to speak Welsh,
0:12:39 > 0:12:41we will struggle.
0:12:41 > 0:12:44Confident is another important issue.
0:12:44 > 0:12:48Now we have people who can speak Welsh but are too afraid to use it.
0:12:48 > 0:12:51The Welsh Language Board was responsible for promoting
0:12:51 > 0:12:53the language and encouraging young people to speak Welsh.
0:12:53 > 0:12:56I don't know who is responsible now.
0:12:56 > 0:13:01Now the results of BBC Wales' annual opinion poll.
0:13:01 > 0:13:05We have already announced the results relating to the Health Service,
0:13:05 > 0:13:08the popularity of the party leaders and devolution.
0:13:08 > 0:13:14Tonight, CF99 can reveal another set of results relating to the EU
0:13:14 > 0:13:18and the results are bound to surprise those who have argued
0:13:18 > 0:13:21that the Welsh are more positive about Brussels
0:13:21 > 0:13:25than people over the border. Tomos Livingstone reports.
0:13:25 > 0:13:31Over the last decade, the talks in Brussels have been kind to Wales.
0:13:31 > 0:13:35Billions of pounds have come from the European Union
0:13:35 > 0:13:37to help Wales' most deprived areas.
0:13:37 > 0:13:41Some say that has created a special bond
0:13:41 > 0:13:42between Wales and the Eurocrats.
0:13:42 > 0:13:48But according to an opinion poll by BBC Wales, 49% of people questioned
0:13:48 > 0:13:52would rather see Wales leaving the European Union completely.
0:13:52 > 0:13:56Only 45% felt Wales had benefited from being
0:13:56 > 0:13:58a part of the European club.
0:13:58 > 0:14:03The presumption is that Wales has gained a lot of money from Europe.
0:14:03 > 0:14:07Wales has benefited a lot from the European Union,
0:14:07 > 0:14:11but many people aren't aware of that.
0:14:11 > 0:14:14The First Minister has made some strong statements
0:14:14 > 0:14:17against David Cameron's desire to perhaps distance
0:14:17 > 0:14:20ourselves from Europe, but that may not benefit Wales.
0:14:20 > 0:14:23Perhaps we have to accept that this goes against people's wishes.
0:14:23 > 0:14:29Perhaps we have to accept that this goes against Labour in Wales.
0:14:33 > 0:14:38The context is David Cameron's promise to hold a referendum
0:14:38 > 0:14:42after the next general election on Britain's relationship with Europe.
0:14:42 > 0:14:46The latest polls suggest the referendum could be very close.
0:14:46 > 0:14:51David Cameron wants to reach a new settlement
0:14:51 > 0:14:54and stay within the European Union.
0:14:54 > 0:14:57Where does the poll result leave the Prime Minister's strategy?
0:14:57 > 0:15:02Many people in Wales have been receiving European money
0:15:02 > 0:15:06for a long time, so it's surprising that a lot of Welsh people
0:15:06 > 0:15:09feel we should leave the European Union.
0:15:09 > 0:15:12This says volumes about the failure of the EU.
0:15:12 > 0:15:15It's crucial we have changes within Europe
0:15:15 > 0:15:17so that we can offer these to the British people
0:15:17 > 0:15:19so they can see how the system should work.
0:15:19 > 0:15:22We need to work on the relationship between Wales,
0:15:22 > 0:15:24Westminster and Europe.
0:15:24 > 0:15:28The Government in Cardiff Bay says our future in Europe
0:15:28 > 0:15:31is crucial to our economic growth.
0:15:31 > 0:15:35The First Minister will be going to Brussels tomorrow.
0:15:35 > 0:15:39County council leaders have already travelled there this week.
0:15:39 > 0:15:43They suggest that David Cameron does not speak for Wales.
0:15:43 > 0:15:47But has the Government of Wales made a mistake?
0:15:47 > 0:15:53Carwyn is clear. He has seen the numbers.
0:15:53 > 0:15:56The contribution that Europe makes to the Welsh Government's budget
0:15:56 > 0:16:00is in the hundreds of millions.
0:16:00 > 0:16:02He doesn't want to lose that.
0:16:02 > 0:16:07It would be a tragedy if the First Minister loses that money.
0:16:07 > 0:16:12But he has an argument against the Tories as well
0:16:12 > 0:16:15as the Labour Party in Westminster.
0:16:15 > 0:16:18The referendum on Europe is on the horizon.
0:16:18 > 0:16:22There is no certainty that David Cameron will win the next election,
0:16:22 > 0:16:29but if there is a referendum, how popular will Europe be in Wales?
0:16:29 > 0:16:35You move in business circles, and I would imagine they are Euro-sceptics.
0:16:39 > 0:16:44Many of them wonder why we are part of the European community.
0:16:44 > 0:16:47But as a body, we've said that the single market, for example,
0:16:47 > 0:16:51is important and that such a market should be
0:16:51 > 0:16:55maintained in the future whatever happens with the European Union.
0:16:55 > 0:16:58Personally, I think it's very foolish to try and persuade
0:16:58 > 0:17:01people to be part of the European Union on the basis of the economy.
0:17:01 > 0:17:05That's an argument that everybody's going to lose at the moment.
0:17:05 > 0:17:08It's very difficult to persuade anyone in a referendum,
0:17:08 > 0:17:11and I have experience of this, to vote 'Yes' for anything.
0:17:11 > 0:17:15It's much easier to vote 'No' or go against something,
0:17:15 > 0:17:17especially in a referendum.
0:17:17 > 0:17:20So as a body, we're quite agnostic in terms of
0:17:20 > 0:17:23whether we should be a part of the European Union or not.
0:17:23 > 0:17:26Personally, I think there are very important reasons to be
0:17:26 > 0:17:31a part of Europe which are nothing to do with the economy.
0:17:31 > 0:17:33But maybe that's a different debate.
0:17:33 > 0:17:35Llyr, did those figures surprise you?
0:17:35 > 0:17:42Or have you sensed a disconnection between what people here think
0:17:42 > 0:17:47and what people outside these glass walls think?
0:17:47 > 0:17:49I do sense a disconnection.
0:17:49 > 0:17:52If you'd asked me this question five years ago, I would have said,
0:17:52 > 0:17:56yes, I'm definitely voting in favour of staying in Europe.
0:17:56 > 0:17:59I like the idea of being a part of Europe, I like the European
0:17:59 > 0:18:02culture, the Mediterranean, the Scandinavian countries.
0:18:02 > 0:18:06But increasingly, as someone who spends his time looking at business
0:18:06 > 0:18:10models and looking at the challenge from China, it worries me
0:18:10 > 0:18:15when I see the inability of the European structures to deal
0:18:15 > 0:18:18quickly enough with the problems of Greece and Italy.
0:18:18 > 0:18:20I genuinely find myself...
0:18:20 > 0:18:24I don't want to be a Euro-skeptic
0:18:24 > 0:18:28because I don't like the people who are Euro-skeptics!
0:18:28 > 0:18:32But I do find myself thinking, I wonder which way I'd vote today.
0:18:32 > 0:18:35Susan, is the Welsh Government responsible
0:18:35 > 0:18:37for causing a problem here?
0:18:37 > 0:18:42Something Guto Bebb was referring to then.
0:18:42 > 0:18:46That all this European money has come in and has gone to the valleys
0:18:46 > 0:18:51and so on and people see the projects but they don't see that their
0:18:51 > 0:18:55economic lives and their economic opportunities have improved.
0:18:55 > 0:18:58A lot of that money has been spent on good things
0:18:58 > 0:19:01but it hasn't really transformed the economy.
0:19:01 > 0:19:05I don't really agree with him on that.
0:19:05 > 0:19:08I think if you compare the figures in Wales
0:19:08 > 0:19:12with the figures in England, there's a difference.
0:19:12 > 0:19:16But to be honest,
0:19:16 > 0:19:21whatever you call Europhiles in Cardiff Bay,
0:19:21 > 0:19:26I don't really call myself a Europhile, instinctively.
0:19:26 > 0:19:32But to be honest with you, I think the idea of going outside
0:19:32 > 0:19:35the European Union is completely crazy.
0:19:35 > 0:19:38Just talk to companies like Airbus.
0:19:38 > 0:19:42There's all the uncertainty about investment.
0:19:42 > 0:19:50No, I think at the end of the day, the practical argument will win.
0:19:50 > 0:19:52You say practical,
0:19:52 > 0:19:58but what's odd is we've been a member of the European Union now since '72.
0:19:58 > 0:20:03So we're talking about a long time.
0:20:03 > 0:20:06And yet, unlike almost every other country in the Union,
0:20:06 > 0:20:10it's as if we're always discussing leaving.
0:20:10 > 0:20:15I remember that time.
0:20:15 > 0:20:18I was very young.
0:20:18 > 0:20:21I remember people like my grandfather
0:20:21 > 0:20:26saying that it was a bad thing to go into the common market.
0:20:26 > 0:20:29At the same time, the Liberals in Wales
0:20:29 > 0:20:33and Plaid Cymru was against it too.
0:20:33 > 0:20:35But to be honest,
0:20:35 > 0:20:38when we had the referendum in the 70s
0:20:38 > 0:20:42we voted in favour of staying in and I think
0:20:42 > 0:20:47if there is a referendum I think we'll stay in the European Union.
0:20:47 > 0:20:50But what I don't want is all the uncertainty
0:20:50 > 0:20:52caused by David Cameron's ideas,
0:20:52 > 0:20:55who himself has changed his mind about a referendum.
0:20:55 > 0:21:00There's a by-election in England tomorrow in Eastleigh
0:21:00 > 0:21:04and some journalists are predicting that UKIP could come second
0:21:04 > 0:21:08or are even predicting that UKIP could win.
0:21:08 > 0:21:11If that happens, Iestyn,
0:21:11 > 0:21:15and that uncertainty that Susan referred to increases,
0:21:15 > 0:21:21what would your members, who export or who depend on deals with Europe,
0:21:21 > 0:21:24would they start worrying, not so much about being in or out,
0:21:24 > 0:21:26but about the uncertainty?
0:21:26 > 0:21:31The question is, how will it affect the condition of the economy
0:21:31 > 0:21:34in Wales and Britain and inside Europe?
0:21:34 > 0:21:36What will be the implications
0:21:36 > 0:21:39in terms of exporting to countries outside Europe?
0:21:39 > 0:21:42All those questions then become important.
0:21:42 > 0:21:47As you said, some businesses are quite Euro-skeptic constitutionally
0:21:47 > 0:21:51and believe the whole future of Europe
0:21:51 > 0:21:55depends on solving this problem we have at the moment.
0:21:55 > 0:22:01As Llyr said, it's very unlikely, from what we see inside Europe
0:22:01 > 0:22:05and the European Union, that the will is there to solve the problem.
0:22:05 > 0:22:08At the end of the day, it's not the readers of the Western Mail
0:22:08 > 0:22:11that will decide whether we're a part of Europe in the future.
0:22:11 > 0:22:14The readers of the Daily Mail will have the biggest vote
0:22:14 > 0:22:17and that, maybe more than anything, concerns me.
0:22:17 > 0:22:21Or maybe the readers of whichever newspaper is the biggest in Rome,
0:22:21 > 0:22:26because it's not impossible for the European Union or the Eurozone
0:22:26 > 0:22:30to get into deep trouble and the whole thing could collapse.
0:22:30 > 0:22:33I don't think that's going to happen.
0:22:33 > 0:22:36What worries me is that we'll have 25 years of deterioration.
0:22:36 > 0:22:39That Europe will go backwards and the Far East
0:22:39 > 0:22:41and China will grow quickly.
0:22:41 > 0:22:45It worries me that if we're a part of this thing that's deteriorating
0:22:45 > 0:22:48during the next quarter of a century,
0:22:48 > 0:22:50it'll be 25 years of deterioration for us.
0:22:50 > 0:22:54Increasingly, I think we have to shift our focus to India and China.
0:22:54 > 0:22:57Maybe being on the fringes of Europe is better
0:22:57 > 0:22:59with regard to changing the focus.
0:22:59 > 0:23:02But do we move that focus as Britain, as Wales or as Europe?
0:23:04 > 0:23:06In an ideal world, as Europe.
0:23:06 > 0:23:08But it's so big
0:23:08 > 0:23:12and getting 27 countries to agree to do that is virtually impossible.
0:23:12 > 0:23:14You're making the case there for strengthening
0:23:14 > 0:23:16and dealing with Europe's problems.
0:23:16 > 0:23:22Susan, you say you think logic will win at the end of the day.
0:23:22 > 0:23:28But if UKIP wins Eastleigh tomorrow, most predict it won't happen
0:23:28 > 0:23:32but some predict it will, what would that say about our politics?
0:23:32 > 0:23:40It's only one by-election and of course it sends a message,
0:23:40 > 0:23:48but it's what happens in the General Election that counts the most.
0:23:48 > 0:23:51Thank you to you all. That's it for another week.
0:23:51 > 0:23:54We'll be back at the same time next week.
0:23:54 > 0:23:57Meanwhile, you can hear more from me and another panel of guests
0:23:57 > 0:24:01on "O'r Bae" on Radio Cymru on Friday at 2.00pm.
0:24:01 > 0:24:05I hope I'll have your company then. But for now, goodbye.