0:00:20 > 0:00:24Hello and welcome to CF99, live from the Senedd in Cardiff Bay.
0:00:24 > 0:00:28Before we meet our guests, here's a taste of tonight's programme.
0:00:28 > 0:00:31The concerns of the Archbishop of Wales regarding
0:00:31 > 0:00:34one of the Government's iconic policies.
0:00:34 > 0:00:38I think that this legislation is dangerous.
0:00:38 > 0:00:42I am 100% in favour of organ donation,
0:00:42 > 0:00:45but this should be voluntary.
0:00:45 > 0:00:48And the rumours from the corridors over possible changes
0:00:48 > 0:00:50to electing members.
0:00:50 > 0:00:54The most important thing for the people in this place is the work.
0:00:54 > 0:00:59They think that they are working too hard.
0:00:59 > 0:01:02More shortly. Joining me this evening, Nick Bennett,
0:01:02 > 0:01:06the chief executive of Community Homes Wales, columnist
0:01:06 > 0:01:11and broadcaster Angharad Mair, and former Plaid Cymru AM Dr Dai Lloyd.
0:01:11 > 0:01:14Thank you for your company.
0:01:14 > 0:01:16Well, with a key vote approaching in the Assembly,
0:01:16 > 0:01:22the Archbishop of Wales has attacked Government plans to introduce
0:01:22 > 0:01:26a system of presumed consent for organ donation.
0:01:26 > 0:01:30According to Dr Barry Morgan, there is confusion over how such
0:01:30 > 0:01:34a system would work and the Labour chair of the Health Committee has
0:01:34 > 0:01:39told CF99 that the Health Minister needs to explain the situation.
0:01:39 > 0:01:41Aled ap Dafydd reports.
0:01:50 > 0:01:54Behind the spring sunshine at the cathedral,
0:01:54 > 0:01:58a black cloud is gathering. Dangerous and confusing,
0:01:58 > 0:02:03a selection of the adjectives used by Wales' most prominent cleric,
0:02:03 > 0:02:06in describing the Welsh Government's iconic legislation.
0:02:11 > 0:02:16I think that this legislation is dangerous.
0:02:16 > 0:02:19I am 100% in favour of organ donation,
0:02:19 > 0:02:22but it should be voluntary.
0:02:22 > 0:02:27And people should opt into it rather than opt out.
0:02:27 > 0:02:31I don't think it's right that the Government tells people that
0:02:31 > 0:02:34unless you decide to opt out, we have the right to take your organs.
0:02:34 > 0:02:37That is a step too far, I believe.
0:02:37 > 0:02:41On average, three people die every month in Wales whilst
0:02:41 > 0:02:44waiting for a transplant.
0:02:44 > 0:02:48Assembly Members will vote on the principle of opting out next
0:02:48 > 0:02:52month, the first step before the final approval of the legislation.
0:02:52 > 0:02:56But the matter has already caused splits within
0:02:56 > 0:02:59the Assembly Health Committee.
0:02:59 > 0:03:02Some oppose the general principle.
0:03:02 > 0:03:05Others say there is a lack of clarity regarding
0:03:05 > 0:03:08the role of the family. Will they have a veto?
0:03:08 > 0:03:12What about a system that allows input,
0:03:12 > 0:03:15depending on how close their relationship with the patient is?
0:03:15 > 0:03:19The family will provide information rather than make a decision,
0:03:19 > 0:03:21according to the Welsh Government.
0:03:21 > 0:03:26What we think as a committee is that the most important
0:03:26 > 0:03:31point for the Government is to be clear and consistent,
0:03:31 > 0:03:35regarding the role of the family in the new system.
0:03:35 > 0:03:42And also, to try and be sure that what is on the face
0:03:42 > 0:03:48of the legislation reflects what is happening in reality.
0:03:48 > 0:03:52In an uncertain world, one thing is certain - death.
0:03:52 > 0:03:57The opinion here is that the Government has crossed
0:03:57 > 0:04:01an ethical line and made a mess of things at the same time.
0:04:01 > 0:04:04The sticking point is the final say.
0:04:04 > 0:04:08Who has it - the deceased or the family?
0:04:08 > 0:04:12The Health Minister has recently said that they need to
0:04:12 > 0:04:14look at that once again
0:04:14 > 0:04:19and maybe give some sort of a basis to evidence from family members.
0:04:19 > 0:04:23Finding out their opinion rather than
0:04:23 > 0:04:27the opinion of the deceased person.
0:04:27 > 0:04:30I think that confuses the argument.
0:04:30 > 0:04:35And so if they are going to do that, that is the process we have now.
0:04:35 > 0:04:38I don't see any purpose in having this legislation.
0:04:38 > 0:04:42So what do you think they are aiming for in introducing this legislation?
0:04:42 > 0:04:45Well, I don't know. I don't know why.
0:04:45 > 0:04:48I think the Labour Party, for example,
0:04:48 > 0:04:51have put it in their manifesto and so they are determined,
0:04:51 > 0:04:55as they have promised to do this, to go ahead.
0:04:55 > 0:04:58And I don't think they have thought about the results.
0:04:58 > 0:05:00And once you're in this situation,
0:05:00 > 0:05:04you just go ahead despite the evidence against.
0:05:04 > 0:05:08That is not the opinion at the Kidney Wales Foundation,
0:05:08 > 0:05:12as they prepare for one of their main fundraising events of the year.
0:05:12 > 0:05:16They say the archbishop is free to have an opinion, but...
0:05:16 > 0:05:20It's not right because this law will save us
0:05:20 > 0:05:26from the cruelty of waiting for organs.
0:05:26 > 0:05:29And that is difficult for families right across Wales
0:05:29 > 0:05:32and the rest of the world, of course.
0:05:32 > 0:05:35And I see it as odd that he is against it.
0:05:35 > 0:05:39The archbishop, the charity and the politicians agree on one thing -
0:05:39 > 0:05:42the need for more donors.
0:05:42 > 0:05:46But deciding on a way to achieve that is proving difficult.
0:05:46 > 0:05:49And no-one has yet had the final say.
0:05:51 > 0:05:54Aled ap Dafydd. Dai Lloyd, when you were here,
0:05:54 > 0:05:59I think you were the first AM to try and bring forward such a measure.
0:06:02 > 0:06:07What is the evidence that this would lead to more organ donations?
0:06:07 > 0:06:13We have figures from 22 other countries who have this system.
0:06:13 > 0:06:18There are more organs available,
0:06:18 > 0:06:23that is why we have brought this forward.
0:06:23 > 0:06:25That is why we need this legislation.
0:06:25 > 0:06:30About one person in Wales dies every week
0:06:31 > 0:06:35waiting for an organ transplant.
0:06:35 > 0:06:40Everyone wants to hassle the Health Minister asking about resources.
0:06:40 > 0:06:46This is one waiting-list we could all help out with.
0:06:46 > 0:06:50One of the deficiencies is that the lack of organs
0:06:50 > 0:06:54and we can all do something about that.
0:06:54 > 0:06:59Some would say, if you increase the number of organs
0:06:59 > 0:07:03available on the waiting list, do we have the specialist doctors
0:07:03 > 0:07:06and surgeons to be able to carry out the operations?
0:07:06 > 0:07:10Yes, because at the moment a third of the transplants
0:07:10 > 0:07:15are being done on people who are still alive.
0:07:15 > 0:07:19We do not have enough organs available from those who have died.
0:07:19 > 0:07:23Voluntary transplants that take place in Cardiff this year
0:07:23 > 0:07:27have organs which have come up from people who are still alive
0:07:27 > 0:07:31The capacity is there because we use it with people who are alive.
0:07:31 > 0:07:35There aren't enough organs being donated from the deceased.
0:07:35 > 0:07:39We will follow the question about consent from the family's shortly.
0:07:39 > 0:07:43But first, we will look at the moral issue.
0:07:43 > 0:07:48The fact that the body is being somehow nationalised.
0:07:50 > 0:07:52- Is this worrying for you? - Not really.
0:07:52 > 0:07:59After hearing Dr Barry Morgan, we would say that the soul
0:07:59 > 0:08:04is the most important thing and the body is just the instrument of that.
0:08:04 > 0:08:10When you think about 36 people dying waiting for a transplant every year,
0:08:10 > 0:08:15it is like a bus accident or something like that.
0:08:20 > 0:08:23Any moral dilemma for you, Angharad?
0:08:23 > 0:08:28Of all the articles I wrote for Golwg, his is one I avoided.
0:08:28 > 0:08:34Of course, I think that this bill should go on to become law.
0:08:35 > 0:08:40I have a lot of respect for Dr Barry Morgan,
0:08:40 > 0:08:42and there is something sinister
0:08:42 > 0:08:46about the way the state owns the body.
0:08:46 > 0:08:49But, I also believe this is a bill
0:08:49 > 0:08:54has had a lot of attention in the press.
0:08:54 > 0:08:58It's had a great deal of attention in the English press.
0:08:58 > 0:09:04Wouldn't it be nice if the Assembly could pass a law
0:09:04 > 0:09:09that would get attention and be admired by people
0:09:09 > 0:09:14who are very supportive of this measure.
0:09:14 > 0:09:22We need to have the backbone to pass important legislation like this.
0:09:22 > 0:09:27Time for the difficult question about the role of the family.
0:09:27 > 0:09:34How does it work at the moment? The family still has a role today.
0:09:34 > 0:09:40There isn't a card anymore, everything is kept on a computer.
0:09:40 > 0:09:45Talks are held with the family.
0:09:45 > 0:09:49There is no sense that the state will have control.
0:09:49 > 0:09:55Who is the state? We are the state.
0:09:55 > 0:10:02We have a system at the moment where you register for organ donation.
0:10:02 > 0:10:06But a minority of the population does so.
0:10:10 > 0:10:15Most people agree with the idea of organ donation,
0:10:15 > 0:10:18but a minority only registers for it.
0:10:18 > 0:10:23If you really do not want to take part, then you can opt out.
0:10:23 > 0:10:29You are not being forced to take part.
0:10:29 > 0:10:35What if someone has not opted out but they had told their wife,
0:10:35 > 0:10:39for example, they intend to opt out,
0:10:39 > 0:10:46but perhaps they had a heart attack just after saying that.
0:10:46 > 0:10:48Does the wife then have a voice?
0:10:48 > 0:10:53We have been dealing with a situation like this
0:10:53 > 0:10:56for a number of years.
0:10:56 > 0:11:01The structure is in place to make sure mistakes do not take place.
0:11:01 > 0:11:04The situation is very sensitive.
0:11:04 > 0:11:08We have sensitive talks with individuals and families
0:11:08 > 0:11:10and we reach a decision from this.
0:11:10 > 0:11:15If anyone is unhappy, it won't happen.
0:11:15 > 0:11:17That is what will happen in future.
0:11:17 > 0:11:19If anyone is unhappy, it won't happen.
0:11:19 > 0:11:21Dai says that but he's a doctor.
0:11:21 > 0:11:25In Mid-Staffordshire, targets were set
0:11:25 > 0:11:28and all kinds of mistakes were being made.
0:11:28 > 0:11:33Can we trust doctors who may want to do the best,
0:11:33 > 0:11:36but sometimes make mistakes?
0:11:36 > 0:11:38This is a bill to save lives.
0:11:38 > 0:11:41Dai Lloyd spoke of other countries
0:11:41 > 0:11:45and we have seen the situation in Belgium improved.
0:11:45 > 0:11:52I do not think it is causing any problems the civil society.
0:11:52 > 0:11:56In the end, we are saving lives.
0:11:56 > 0:12:01It is possible for individuals to opt in.
0:12:01 > 0:12:04After we pass this bill, they can opt out, what's the problem?
0:12:04 > 0:12:08How detailed should this become?
0:12:09 > 0:12:15There is a feeling people may be willing to give some organs
0:12:15 > 0:12:18but not others.
0:12:18 > 0:12:24Some people wouldn't want to give their eyes, hands or skin.
0:12:24 > 0:12:29Myself, I would be happy for anyone to take anything
0:12:29 > 0:12:34if it saved someone's life.
0:12:34 > 0:12:39One could think that should come from this
0:12:39 > 0:12:43is that people should be able to discuss it.
0:12:43 > 0:12:48It would make it much easier for doctors
0:12:48 > 0:12:53and families then, when they lose someone close.
0:12:53 > 0:12:57It is going to be a deep discussion
0:12:57 > 0:13:04but it is important to have it in order to get it through.
0:13:04 > 0:13:07If those demands are respected,
0:13:07 > 0:13:13how reasonable is it that those wishes are respected?
0:13:13 > 0:13:17How detailed should these demands be?
0:13:17 > 0:13:21That is what we do at the moment.
0:13:21 > 0:13:28You can tick different boxes when you register now for organ donation.
0:13:28 > 0:13:35It is much easier for the doctor to have a sensitive discussion
0:13:35 > 0:13:41with the family at their terrible time for the family's.
0:13:41 > 0:13:44In countries like Spain and Belgium,
0:13:44 > 0:13:48people realise this is the established will of the people.
0:13:56 > 0:14:02Only around 15% of families turned down this when the situation arises.
0:14:02 > 0:14:09In this country now, if you ask families about organ donation
0:14:10 > 0:14:18at a terrible time for them, you can appear cold-hearted.
0:14:20 > 0:14:26Under such circumstances, 40% of families refuse.
0:14:26 > 0:14:29- This is why we have to change the law.- Thank you.
0:14:29 > 0:14:34Last week, the Presiding Officer, Rosemary Butler,
0:14:34 > 0:14:38explained why she thought the number of Assembly Members
0:14:38 > 0:14:41needed to be increased from 60 to 80.
0:14:41 > 0:14:44It's possible that the British Government
0:14:44 > 0:14:48will lift the ban on standing in both a constituency
0:14:48 > 0:14:51and on the regional list in the Assembly elections.
0:14:51 > 0:14:54We asked political commentator, Gareth Hughes,
0:14:54 > 0:14:58who can often be found loitering in the corridors,
0:14:58 > 0:15:02to assess how such changes could affect the Assembly's work
0:15:02 > 0:15:04and the standard of its members.
0:15:18 > 0:15:21I have been in this place since it opened.
0:15:21 > 0:15:24I have seen people come in and go out.
0:15:24 > 0:15:29Since it was first established, there was a lot of excitement.
0:15:29 > 0:15:32Standards have gone up and down.
0:15:36 > 0:15:39When it started, the standard was very high,
0:15:39 > 0:15:42then it seemed to drop a little bit.
0:15:42 > 0:15:46It seems things are starting to improve again.
0:15:53 > 0:15:57In the first Assembly, candidates could stand in constituencies
0:15:57 > 0:16:00and on regional lists.
0:16:00 > 0:16:03That soon changed, why?
0:16:03 > 0:16:10Labour was not happy with this, so they decided to scrap the system.
0:16:10 > 0:16:14But the system is back on the agenda now,
0:16:14 > 0:16:18because the Westminster Government wants to change this.
0:16:18 > 0:16:23Last time, the Conservatives did very well in constituencies,
0:16:23 > 0:16:30but they lost their leader, who was on a regional list.
0:16:30 > 0:16:33They want to change the system,
0:16:33 > 0:16:37so they can take things back to how they were.
0:16:41 > 0:16:46But the most important thing for the people here is work.
0:16:46 > 0:16:48But they believed they worked too hard.
0:16:48 > 0:16:53Now they have the power to legislate.
0:16:53 > 0:17:00The Presiding Officer has said they need 80 members.
0:17:00 > 0:17:04They say they need to increase the number of Assembly Members.
0:17:04 > 0:17:08There will be an increase but we won't know how much.
0:17:08 > 0:17:12There are 60 members now, and they would like to see 80.
0:17:18 > 0:17:22Everyone is quiet here. They followed the party line.
0:17:22 > 0:17:25More people might shake things up a little bit.
0:17:30 > 0:17:35Change is in the air, the Silk Commission is looking at this place
0:17:35 > 0:17:38and perhaps it could bring more powers.
0:17:38 > 0:17:43That would raise the question as to whether there are enough members.
0:17:44 > 0:17:49On what about the standard of these members?
0:17:49 > 0:17:55After five years, this place will be completely different.
0:18:02 > 0:18:06I am sure he will be here to see it as well.
0:18:06 > 0:18:11You were part of the convention that went around the country
0:18:11 > 0:18:16and that led to the increase in powers here?
0:18:16 > 0:18:21Are 60 members enough? Was 60 enough in the first place?
0:18:21 > 0:18:25I would be in favour of having 80 members.
0:18:25 > 0:18:30When you compare this with the Scottish Parliament
0:18:30 > 0:18:35and in Northern Ireland, they have more than 100 members.
0:18:35 > 0:18:41There's one member in Northern Ireland for every 16,000 people.
0:18:41 > 0:18:47But it will be harder to sell that with the economy as it is.
0:18:47 > 0:18:52There is also a drop in the number of MPs.
0:18:52 > 0:18:59But, at the moment you also have the debate about local Government.
0:18:59 > 0:19:02I was going to bring that up.
0:19:02 > 0:19:07One of my favourite facts is that we have more councillors in Wales
0:19:07 > 0:19:09than they have in Scotland.
0:19:09 > 0:19:14That means we have too many people at one level and not enough at another.
0:19:14 > 0:19:18I would agree with that.
0:19:18 > 0:19:22I would like to reduce the number of MPs as well.
0:19:22 > 0:19:26This is not just about the number of councillors.
0:19:26 > 0:19:31We have to think about the efficiency.
0:19:31 > 0:19:35There was a case in Caerphilly Council this week.
0:19:35 > 0:19:39There is a case to save a lot of money
0:19:39 > 0:19:43with local Government reorganisation.
0:19:43 > 0:19:46We won't chase after that there now,
0:19:46 > 0:19:50but we will look at the question of standards.
0:19:50 > 0:19:55With only 60 members, shirkers cannot hide?
0:19:55 > 0:20:00But there are enough that can go on screen
0:20:00 > 0:20:07and it can appear to be painful at times.
0:20:07 > 0:20:11I have to admit having watched coverage from the assembly,
0:20:11 > 0:20:16two members embarrass me because they did not have enough knowledge
0:20:16 > 0:20:19about the subjects they were talking about.
0:20:19 > 0:20:21They were two female members from Labour,
0:20:21 > 0:20:28and I could not believe they had been elected to represent people.
0:20:31 > 0:20:36I won't name them because I don't remember their names.
0:20:36 > 0:20:42Sometimes, that does happen.
0:20:44 > 0:20:47Yes, but when you only have 60 people,
0:20:47 > 0:20:53choosing weak people weakens the whole institution.
0:20:57 > 0:21:01Labour quite spiteful in changing the rules
0:21:01 > 0:21:04ensured this place became weaker.
0:21:04 > 0:21:08I think that decision has now come back to haunt them.
0:21:08 > 0:21:15You need trust between this place and the people of Wales,
0:21:15 > 0:21:21and I do not think that is in place at the moment.
0:21:21 > 0:21:24There is a sense among the people this place is too weak.
0:21:24 > 0:21:27No-one from Labour is here.
0:21:27 > 0:21:31The argument that was used to change the rule
0:21:31 > 0:21:36was about Dyffryn Clwyd in North Wales.
0:21:36 > 0:21:42Four candidates in one constituency. The Labour candidate won.
0:21:42 > 0:21:47The three unsuccessful candidates came here on the regional list.
0:21:47 > 0:21:52They had lost the election but they still got through.
0:21:52 > 0:21:55That is quite an extreme example.
0:21:55 > 0:22:00Usually, there are two elections on the same day.
0:22:00 > 0:22:07You vote for constituencies and regional lists on the same day.
0:22:07 > 0:22:09Many people vote in a different way.
0:22:09 > 0:22:12Perhaps they vote for Labour locally,
0:22:12 > 0:22:16but then vote for Plaid Cymru on the regional list.
0:22:16 > 0:22:23It would suit Labour to put that argument across.
0:22:23 > 0:22:30You have two different elections taking place with different results.
0:22:30 > 0:22:36Labour has always been prejudiced against regional list members.
0:22:36 > 0:22:41It is a waste to vote for Labour in South Wales on the regional list,
0:22:41 > 0:22:45because they pick up all the constituency seats.
0:22:45 > 0:22:49They insist on having people voting for them.
0:22:49 > 0:22:52It doesn't make sense at all.
0:22:52 > 0:22:58Do we need to look at the system and consider different voting methods?
0:22:58 > 0:23:05Should we look at the national list rather than a regional one?
0:23:05 > 0:23:11This place does not truly represent the voting percentages.
0:23:11 > 0:23:13Labour has an advantage.
0:23:13 > 0:23:19Perhaps a whole Wales regional list would be more representative.
0:23:19 > 0:23:24It is also very difficult for the smaller parties in this election.
0:23:24 > 0:23:28It's harder for them to have 60 members every time.
0:23:28 > 0:23:35Nick Bourne, Glyn Davies, Helen Mary, Nerys Evans.
0:23:35 > 0:23:39We have had a number of good candidates being lost
0:23:39 > 0:23:41because of this change to the system.
0:23:41 > 0:23:47We also need strong opposition parties as well as the government.
0:23:47 > 0:23:52Thanks very much to all three of you. That's it for another week.
0:23:52 > 0:23:56We shall be back at 9.30pm next Wednesday. Join us then.
0:23:56 > 0:24:00But for now, good evening.