0:00:19 > 0:00:24Hello and welcome to CF99, live from the National Assembly in Cardiff Bay.
0:00:24 > 0:00:28Today, the attention of the political world has been on the events
0:00:28 > 0:00:30in London.
0:00:30 > 0:00:34On the day of Margaret Thatcher's funeral and in the days
0:00:34 > 0:00:36since she died, her career has been debated.
0:00:36 > 0:00:42Tonight, we will discuss the response from politicians in Wales in remembering
0:00:42 > 0:00:45one of the most controversial figures of recent history.
0:00:45 > 0:00:47At the beginning of a new political term,
0:00:47 > 0:00:52we're joined by the Labour AM for Llanelli, Keith Davies,
0:00:52 > 0:00:56and the former journalist who is now a media consultant, Elin Wyn.
0:00:56 > 0:00:58And in our Westminster studio,
0:00:58 > 0:01:02the Conservative MP for Montgomeryshire, Glyn Davies.
0:01:02 > 0:01:04Good evening.
0:01:04 > 0:01:08Over 2,000 people gathered at St Paul's to bid farewell to
0:01:08 > 0:01:11Margaret Thatcher - her family, friends,
0:01:11 > 0:01:15leaders and politicians from Britain and the rest of the world.
0:01:15 > 0:01:19Over recent days, her place in the history books has been debated.
0:01:19 > 0:01:23James Williams takes a look at the response from politicians
0:01:23 > 0:01:26here in Wales.
0:01:30 > 0:01:32It was a day to remember.
0:01:35 > 0:01:37To cry.
0:01:37 > 0:01:40For the famous
0:01:40 > 0:01:42and the ordinary.
0:01:42 > 0:01:45To respect and to protest.
0:01:45 > 0:01:49There are few who would deny Baroness Thatcher transformed Britain,
0:01:49 > 0:01:54but was that for the better or for the worse?
0:01:54 > 0:01:57The debate over the former Prime Minister's legacy has been
0:01:57 > 0:02:02continuing since she died nine days ago.
0:02:02 > 0:02:05I think it has been a lively debate in Wales.
0:02:05 > 0:02:08I think it has been an honest debate.
0:02:08 > 0:02:09And it has been a debate.
0:02:09 > 0:02:13And all of those things reflect Margaret Thatcher's legacy.
0:02:13 > 0:02:17An honest politician, a clear politician and a politician
0:02:17 > 0:02:21who was always prepared to debate on a national level.
0:02:21 > 0:02:22In the Assembly yesterday,
0:02:22 > 0:02:26a special session was held for tributes to Margaret Thatcher.
0:02:26 > 0:02:30Some Plaid Cymru and Labour members decided to stay away,
0:02:30 > 0:02:32including the former Presiding Officer.
0:02:32 > 0:02:37I won't be taking part in any memorial for Baroness Thatcher.
0:02:37 > 0:02:40I didn't go to London last week. I couldn't.
0:02:40 > 0:02:43I would have considered myself a hypocrite if I had done so.
0:02:43 > 0:02:46When I was the leader of Plaid Cymru during the miners' strike,
0:02:46 > 0:02:50I did everything I could to defend communities in Wales and failed.
0:02:50 > 0:02:55The First Minister was treading carefully, as he showed a political enemy respect.
0:02:55 > 0:02:57It is right to say, Llywydd, that she
0:02:57 > 0:03:01brought many of us in this Chamber into politics.
0:03:01 > 0:03:05Some on the benches opposite, of course, in support of her views.
0:03:05 > 0:03:09Others of us in strong reaction to what she did.
0:03:09 > 0:03:13Indeed, it was what happened during the course of the miners' strike
0:03:13 > 0:03:16that brought me on the political path that I have taken every since.
0:03:16 > 0:03:20She was an inspiring leader and a brave leader.
0:03:20 > 0:03:23And I think she transformed the political
0:03:23 > 0:03:25landscape of Britain for ever
0:03:25 > 0:03:29and I think when she leaved the post of prime minister, this
0:03:29 > 0:03:36nation was far more successful and confident and far more enterprising.
0:03:36 > 0:03:41From the Falklands War to the miners' strike in 1984,
0:03:41 > 0:03:46the first female prime minister made her mark on Wales and the Welsh.
0:03:46 > 0:03:50We will probably see the effects of Margaret Thatcher for 20 years
0:03:50 > 0:03:53and maybe even longer.
0:03:53 > 0:03:57Mao Tse Tung was asked 200 years after the French revolution
0:03:57 > 0:04:01about the effects of the French revolution
0:04:01 > 0:04:04and he said it was too early to tell.
0:04:04 > 0:04:09Maybe in 100 years, we will still be trying to work out exactly
0:04:09 > 0:04:10the impact of Margaret Thatcher.
0:04:10 > 0:04:14But she has affected everyone who lives in this country.
0:04:14 > 0:04:17For some, she was a heroine, for other, a villain.
0:04:17 > 0:04:21And in bidding farewell to Margaret Thatcher, her influence over
0:04:21 > 0:04:24Wales and its politics remains a topic of discussion.
0:04:27 > 0:04:31James Williams. Glyn, you were at today's funeral.
0:04:31 > 0:04:34It was a dignified funeral.
0:04:34 > 0:04:38I don't think anyone would deny Margaret Thatcher such a funeral.
0:04:38 > 0:04:42But what about everything else?
0:04:42 > 0:04:46The marching, the ceremonies and so on before the funeral?
0:04:46 > 0:04:48Was that really needed?
0:04:48 > 0:04:52I understand why people are asking that question.
0:04:52 > 0:04:58But what I am asking is what did the people of Britain want?
0:04:58 > 0:05:04And I think what happened today was what the people of Britain wanted.
0:05:04 > 0:05:08I know that some people didn't want that,
0:05:08 > 0:05:11some people did not admire lady Thatcher,
0:05:11 > 0:05:16but I think the majority in Britain saw her as an exceptional
0:05:16 > 0:05:20prime minister and I think they wanted to see some
0:05:20 > 0:05:23sort of ceremony, as we have seen today.
0:05:24 > 0:05:28Were you pleased...? It seemed to me there was some booing,
0:05:28 > 0:05:31but the people who disagreed with Margaret Thatcher on the whole
0:05:31 > 0:05:36seemed to have decided to stay away rather than protesting.
0:05:36 > 0:05:40If people don't want to go, they feel that they cannot go,
0:05:40 > 0:05:43well, it's better that they stay away. I understand that.
0:05:43 > 0:05:46But there were a lot of people at today's funeral who disagreed
0:05:46 > 0:05:49with some of Margaret Thatcher's policies.
0:05:49 > 0:05:52I understand that.
0:05:52 > 0:05:56But they went because they saw her as someone who won three
0:05:56 > 0:06:01general elections, she was popular throughout Britain,
0:06:01 > 0:06:06she had over 40% support, 30% in Wales.
0:06:06 > 0:06:08But people see that and respect that
0:06:08 > 0:06:12and I think that people disagreed with some of her policies,
0:06:12 > 0:06:16but they were there today to pay their respects to someone who
0:06:16 > 0:06:23changed Britain and someone who is seen as a special person.
0:06:23 > 0:06:27Keith Davies, we saw in that film that there was a session
0:06:27 > 0:06:31here in memory of Margaret Thatcher. Was that appropriate?
0:06:31 > 0:06:35I don't think so. What did she have to do with the Assembly?
0:06:35 > 0:06:36I don't know.
0:06:36 > 0:06:41But what I didn't like was what you mentioned earlier - they went up to
0:06:41 > 0:06:42Westminster last week
0:06:42 > 0:06:47and the Bishop of Grantham saying today that he was
0:06:47 > 0:06:52surprised that they had a funeral that had cost so much
0:06:52 > 0:06:57money at a time when millionaires are saving money on income tax
0:06:57 > 0:07:00and then benefits are cut.
0:07:00 > 0:07:02Well, that doesn't make sense.
0:07:02 > 0:07:07But the last Labour government in Westminster had agreed to this.
0:07:07 > 0:07:11Well, I don't know about that, but all that money that was spent,
0:07:11 > 0:07:14they could have gone to Westminster yesterday,
0:07:14 > 0:07:18they didn't have to go up there last week.
0:07:18 > 0:07:23And they didn't have to have all these people at the funeral today.
0:07:23 > 0:07:28Were you one of the ones who stayed away from the Chamber?
0:07:28 > 0:07:29Yes, of course I was one of them.
0:07:29 > 0:07:32I come from a mining village in West Wales.
0:07:32 > 0:07:36What people there think about Margaret Thatcher, I couldn't
0:07:36 > 0:07:38repeat it here.
0:07:38 > 0:07:42Where do you stand on this split?
0:07:42 > 0:07:46I don't think anyone is saying that Margaret Thatcher should be
0:07:46 > 0:07:50buried in a pauper's grave or that she doesn't deserve a big
0:07:50 > 0:07:53funeral, but did you feel...?
0:07:53 > 0:07:57She was a key figure during the late 20th century.
0:07:57 > 0:08:00And everyone is saying - the first female prime minister,
0:08:00 > 0:08:04but she's the only female prime minister we've had in Britain.
0:08:04 > 0:08:07And I think we'd have had the same kind of funeral
0:08:07 > 0:08:10if Labour were still in power.
0:08:10 > 0:08:13Obviously, Blair and Gordon Brown followed on from her,
0:08:13 > 0:08:17as far as policies, to a large extent.
0:08:17 > 0:08:22I don't think we will see another funeral like that again,
0:08:22 > 0:08:26until the Queen dies. And certainly,
0:08:26 > 0:08:30we will never see a funeral like that one for a politician ever again.
0:08:30 > 0:08:35But saying that, you can disagree with her policies,
0:08:35 > 0:08:39but I admire what she achieved as a woman.
0:08:39 > 0:08:45She was chosen to stand in a parliamentary seat
0:08:45 > 0:08:47when she was 25 years old.
0:08:47 > 0:08:52Even now, that would have been thought of as young for a woman.
0:08:52 > 0:08:58And she was just over 50 when she became prime minister. 53.
0:08:58 > 0:09:02At that time, it was also quite young.
0:09:02 > 0:09:04So I have respect and admiration for that.
0:09:04 > 0:09:07As far as being a female politician, of course,
0:09:07 > 0:09:11she didn't have a good record on appointing other women.
0:09:11 > 0:09:16No. It was clear that she wanted to be... People said she was like the queen bee
0:09:16 > 0:09:20and she didn't want other women around her.
0:09:20 > 0:09:24But in that clip, Carwyn Jones mentioned the influence
0:09:24 > 0:09:28she had on him entering politics because the miners' strike.
0:09:28 > 0:09:32And we have a generation of female politicians,
0:09:32 > 0:09:37especially in the Labour Party, who have come into politics
0:09:37 > 0:09:40because of the miners' strike.
0:09:40 > 0:09:43Look at someone like Sian James now, who is an MP.
0:09:43 > 0:09:47She would never have become a politician without the miners'
0:09:47 > 0:09:52strike and the effect of Thatcher.
0:09:52 > 0:09:56Glyn, I'm not sure if you appreciate Margaret Thatcher as a recruiting sergeant
0:09:56 > 0:10:01for the Labour Party, but let's take a look at her contribution.
0:10:01 > 0:10:05We're drawing to the end of the week since her death.
0:10:05 > 0:10:11What do you think will be remembered most of all? The Falklands?
0:10:11 > 0:10:13Was that the main thing?
0:10:13 > 0:10:16If I had to choose one thing, I think it is
0:10:16 > 0:10:22what happened to the unions.
0:10:22 > 0:10:26I remember the '70s and during the '70s,
0:10:26 > 0:10:31the unions wanted to run and were running the economy.
0:10:31 > 0:10:37She had to stop that. Challenging that was very controversial.
0:10:37 > 0:10:40Margaret Thatcher did that.
0:10:40 > 0:10:46And she was successful and power returned to Westminster.
0:10:46 > 0:10:48That's where I want to see the power.
0:10:48 > 0:10:52And the Falklands were important too.
0:10:52 > 0:10:57There are a number of other things. Being a female prime minister.
0:10:57 > 0:11:00I think that was also important.
0:11:00 > 0:11:04It gives each party an example, showing it is
0:11:04 > 0:11:09possible for a woman in Britain to get to the top of politics.
0:11:09 > 0:11:11I think that is important.
0:11:11 > 0:11:15Keith, you have told us about the opinions in your local area,
0:11:15 > 0:11:17but let me put you on the spot and say,
0:11:17 > 0:11:22there are some things that she did, you would not want to reverse.
0:11:22 > 0:11:26Glyn mentioned the unions. I'm not talking about the miners' strike.
0:11:26 > 0:11:31But things like union leaders elected for life.
0:11:31 > 0:11:35Strikes being called without a secret ballot.
0:11:35 > 0:11:38Those are changes for the better, aren't they?
0:11:38 > 0:11:40I can accept some of that with the unions,
0:11:40 > 0:11:44but I can tell you now I was a member of a union that represented
0:11:44 > 0:11:50consultants from England and Wales and we went to ACAS to ask for a pay
0:11:50 > 0:11:56increase and I remember that because what happened there was that
0:11:56 > 0:12:01you had the unions in one room and the employers in another room.
0:12:01 > 0:12:05- Proximity talks.- Proximity talks.
0:12:05 > 0:12:10And this person went back and forth from one room to the other
0:12:10 > 0:12:13and we said, "We need a pay increase."
0:12:13 > 0:12:15"We wouldn't want to do that.
0:12:15 > 0:12:19"If we did that, Margaret Thatcher would be in here and have me up against the wall!"
0:12:19 > 0:12:23And then about two months later, in London with Kenneth Baker,
0:12:23 > 0:12:28who was the education minister at the time.
0:12:28 > 0:12:32And as a union, what we wanted was
0:12:32 > 0:12:37for each county in England and Wales
0:12:37 > 0:12:40to appoint 14 advisors, primary,
0:12:40 > 0:12:45secondary, to help the schools. And Kenneth Baker accepted that.
0:12:45 > 0:12:49He went to the Cabinet and what did Margaret Thatcher say to him?
0:12:49 > 0:12:53"Look, if I agree to what you want, Kenneth, it'll mean all those
0:12:53 > 0:12:59"county councils will expect me to pay for it and I'm not doing it."
0:12:59 > 0:13:01So that's my experience of dealing with her.
0:13:01 > 0:13:05You mention that. Ed Miliband said it too.
0:13:05 > 0:13:09At least she was a politician to which ideology was important.
0:13:09 > 0:13:12She was a politician who felt that ideas were important.
0:13:12 > 0:13:17Politicians like that are pretty thin on the ground these days.
0:13:17 > 0:13:19Yes.
0:13:19 > 0:13:22When you talk about her influence, I think
0:13:22 > 0:13:26it goes further afield than Britain.
0:13:26 > 0:13:30I spent some time in Eastern Europe in the '80s.
0:13:30 > 0:13:34They worshipped Margaret Thatcher there.
0:13:34 > 0:13:37I saw it strange, when I was watching the funeral,
0:13:37 > 0:13:41a quick shot of Lech Walesa, the former president of Poland,
0:13:41 > 0:13:45at the funeral and of course he created a trade union
0:13:45 > 0:13:51and in creating a trade union, that led to the fall of Communism.
0:13:51 > 0:13:56And that is her influence, along with privatisation -
0:13:56 > 0:14:01the privatisation that took place in Britain took place over quite
0:14:01 > 0:14:04a long period of time, but when it moved to Russia,
0:14:04 > 0:14:07they privatised everything overnight,
0:14:07 > 0:14:14the workers having shares, a poor economy, the workers then selling
0:14:14 > 0:14:17their shares to the people who are now oligarchs,
0:14:17 > 0:14:22people like Abramovich and Berezovsky, who has died recently.
0:14:22 > 0:14:28And it has created a huge inequality in countries like Russia,
0:14:28 > 0:14:31directly from following Thatcher's policies.
0:14:31 > 0:14:33And if you think of such things, Keith,
0:14:33 > 0:14:40it's unusual to have a politician from a country
0:14:40 > 0:14:46the size of Britain, 60-odd million people, having that effect.
0:14:46 > 0:14:49I think she was lucky, extremely lucky.
0:14:49 > 0:14:53She was lucky to win in '83 because of the Falklands, Gorbachev
0:14:53 > 0:14:56was in Russia, he wanted to change things.
0:14:56 > 0:14:59The troubles in Northern Ireland, both sides
0:14:59 > 0:15:03fighting against each other and she could go in there and save it.
0:15:03 > 0:15:08So I think she was lucky to last as long as she did.
0:15:08 > 0:15:12What did Napoleon say? Give me a lucky general!
0:15:14 > 0:15:19We'll move on. Some have described Baroness Thatcher as one of the 20th century's
0:15:19 > 0:15:22iconic figures.
0:15:22 > 0:15:26But what do we mean when we talk about icons?
0:15:26 > 0:15:29Which other politicians would be considered iconic?
0:15:41 > 0:15:47The real aim of this election has been very cunningly concealed
0:15:47 > 0:15:49in the folds of the Union Jack.
0:16:04 > 0:16:08I've been the minister for health longer than any other
0:16:08 > 0:16:11minister for health in the history of Great Britain.
0:16:16 > 0:16:21The fact is that we have won the greatest victory for the Welsh
0:16:21 > 0:16:25language, not only this century, but in centuries.
0:16:36 > 0:16:40Where there is discord, may we bring harmony.
0:16:40 > 0:16:42Where there is error, may we bring truth.
0:16:48 > 0:16:50You turn if you want to.
0:16:54 > 0:16:57The lady's not for turning.
0:16:59 > 0:17:02Well, do we need to name them all?
0:17:02 > 0:17:07Lloyd George, Churchill, Nye Bevan, Gwynfor Evans, Margaret Thatcher.
0:17:07 > 0:17:11Elin, what makes an icon? Why do they stand out?
0:17:11 > 0:17:15Is it their achievements or something else?
0:17:15 > 0:17:16I would say vision
0:17:16 > 0:17:20and I think that is what is missing with many politicians nowadays,
0:17:20 > 0:17:25they have ideas but they do not have a vision.
0:17:25 > 0:17:29And also the will to continue working to ensure their vision
0:17:29 > 0:17:30is realised.
0:17:30 > 0:17:35A lot of people believe that ideas are enough.
0:17:35 > 0:17:38But you need more than that.
0:17:38 > 0:17:43And you also need to take people with you in trying to realise
0:17:43 > 0:17:47the vision. And that's what those people did,
0:17:47 > 0:17:50people like Churchill, Lloyd George, Thatcher.
0:17:50 > 0:17:54They took people with them, but with Thatcher, by the end,
0:17:54 > 0:17:57she wasn't taking people with her.
0:17:57 > 0:17:59She didn't have her Cabinet with her.
0:17:59 > 0:18:04And that's what led to her losing the leadership.
0:18:04 > 0:18:07But image is important too.
0:18:07 > 0:18:11Churchill with the V and the cigar and the hat.
0:18:11 > 0:18:15Margaret Thatcher, a woman, but also that helmet of hair.
0:18:15 > 0:18:19Lloyd George with his moustache. Gwynfor Evans' way of speaking.
0:18:19 > 0:18:22Nye Bevan's unique way of speaking.
0:18:22 > 0:18:27There have to be physical and vocal aspects too.
0:18:27 > 0:18:31Yes, it's interesting because I'm enough of an anorak to have watched
0:18:31 > 0:18:37the 1979 election programme shown on BBC Parliament over the weekend.
0:18:39 > 0:18:44And there was a debate on that, back in 1979, about Thatcher's image.
0:18:44 > 0:18:47And this was as she was being elected.
0:18:47 > 0:18:51And the fact that she had people in to change her image so early on.
0:18:51 > 0:18:54That was pioneering.
0:18:54 > 0:18:59- And Saatchi, even then.- Yes. It was pioneering at the time.
0:18:59 > 0:19:04We take it for granted now. But she had to change her voice.
0:19:04 > 0:19:08They thought that a female leader couldn't have a high voice.
0:19:09 > 0:19:12So she had to learn how to lower it.
0:19:12 > 0:19:16And that is something everyone knows about now.
0:19:17 > 0:19:21Glyn, what makes an icon, in your opinion?
0:19:21 > 0:19:25I'm certain you'd agree that Margaret Thatcher is an icon.
0:19:25 > 0:19:29But is it...the willingness to take risks?
0:19:29 > 0:19:32If we think of all those politicians,
0:19:32 > 0:19:35they were all prepared to take risks.
0:19:35 > 0:19:39Well, there needs to be an opportunity.
0:19:39 > 0:19:43There needs to be some sort of challenge to do
0:19:43 > 0:19:47something that is a risk. They had to take risks.
0:19:47 > 0:19:50Lloyd George took risks, so did Churchill,
0:19:50 > 0:19:52and I think Atlee took risks.
0:19:52 > 0:19:55I think Attlee was also an icon.
0:19:55 > 0:19:59And Margaret Thatcher. They had to do things...
0:19:59 > 0:20:02Mrs Thatcher with the Falklands,
0:20:02 > 0:20:04a lot of people were against her doing that.
0:20:04 > 0:20:07Dealing with the unions,
0:20:07 > 0:20:11a lot of people in Wales opposed what she wanted to do.
0:20:11 > 0:20:14There needs to be an opportunity,
0:20:14 > 0:20:17something that needs to be done, with people against it.
0:20:17 > 0:20:21So then a person needs to be strong. But each time, what happens...
0:20:21 > 0:20:24People will turn against Margaret Thatcher.
0:20:24 > 0:20:27The party turned against Lloyd George.
0:20:27 > 0:20:30Sometimes they turned against Churchill.
0:20:30 > 0:20:33Churchill lost a general election. That's what happens.
0:20:33 > 0:20:36If you go in and do something, you don't
0:20:36 > 0:20:40go in to try and be popular, you want them to change things
0:20:40 > 0:20:43and I think that's what's most important in creating an icon.
0:20:43 > 0:20:46I think Margaret Thatcher will be an icon in the long run,
0:20:46 > 0:20:50but it's a little too early. We will need to look back.
0:20:50 > 0:20:53And I think she will be a great icon.
0:20:53 > 0:20:56Keith, what makes an icon, in your opinion?
0:20:56 > 0:21:00For me, it's what people do, maybe not their image.
0:21:00 > 0:21:04The person you didn't include earlier,
0:21:04 > 0:21:09who I thought changed things was Clement Attlee.
0:21:09 > 0:21:14I didn't ask you to name someone and as you've named him...
0:21:14 > 0:21:16Also with Clement Attlee,
0:21:16 > 0:21:20unlike many politicians today who come through the system.
0:21:20 > 0:21:24Clement Attlee was a barrister at one time.
0:21:24 > 0:21:27And he went to work in social services.
0:21:27 > 0:21:29At the end of the Second World War,
0:21:29 > 0:21:32he was the right person to be prime minister because he knew what people
0:21:32 > 0:21:38wanted and he ensured that we had a new system in the country and
0:21:38 > 0:21:43he was responsible, I would say, for things like the health service.
0:21:43 > 0:21:45I accept what you're saying, as far as change,
0:21:45 > 0:21:49but was he an icon in the sense that with the others their voices would be
0:21:49 > 0:21:53enough, you could take their pictures onto the street
0:21:53 > 0:21:57- and people would know them. - Yes, I accept that.
0:21:57 > 0:22:00If you want me to name two others from the last century, and talking
0:22:00 > 0:22:06of risk takers, it would be Martin Luther King and Nelson Mandela.
0:22:06 > 0:22:11They took huge risks. And one was assassinated.
0:22:11 > 0:22:16Icons, suggestions, from Britain or further afield?
0:22:16 > 0:22:18I would agree with Nelson Mandela
0:22:18 > 0:22:21because he clearly had a huge vision.
0:22:21 > 0:22:24And continued over many years.
0:22:24 > 0:22:26But for me, with my background,
0:22:26 > 0:22:31I would put Gorbachev up there as an icon.
0:22:31 > 0:22:35Because his ideology, Perestroika, Glasnost,
0:22:35 > 0:22:41it transformed the Communist system.
0:22:41 > 0:22:44No, he wasn't acknowledged in the Soviet Union,
0:22:44 > 0:22:50but he was outside the Soviet Union.
0:22:50 > 0:22:52He was iconic.
0:22:52 > 0:22:55I think today, if you showed his photo,
0:22:55 > 0:22:58people would remember who he was.
0:22:58 > 0:23:02A prophet not recognised in his own land.
0:23:02 > 0:23:06Glyn, would you like to suggest another icon?
0:23:07 > 0:23:10I was thinking of saying Boris Johnson,
0:23:10 > 0:23:13but that is something for the future!
0:23:14 > 0:23:18Well, I mean, I admire Gorbachev.
0:23:18 > 0:23:23I don't know what people in the future will think,
0:23:23 > 0:23:28but looking at Margaret Thatcher now and what she did.
0:23:28 > 0:23:32I think the work that Margaret Thatcher did with Ronald Reagan
0:23:32 > 0:23:35and Gorbachev, that is
0:23:35 > 0:23:40the reason why people right across the world look to Britain today.
0:23:40 > 0:23:44The work with the pair of them and the way they changed the world.
0:23:44 > 0:23:48I think that will be more important in the future, than anything else.
0:23:48 > 0:23:52Glyn Davies, thank you. And thank you, all three.
0:23:52 > 0:23:55That's all for this week.
0:23:55 > 0:23:59Join me on Friday afternoon for O'r Bae on Radio Cymru.
0:23:59 > 0:24:02But for now, thanks for watching and good evening.