0:00:18 > 0:00:24Hello and welcome to CF99, live from the National Assembly in Cardiff Bay.
0:00:24 > 0:00:28On tonight's programme, the Treasury discusses the future of devolution.
0:00:28 > 0:00:31Questions over the future of the pound in Scotland
0:00:31 > 0:00:33and taxes in Cardiff.
0:00:33 > 0:00:35Unless you have those powers,
0:00:35 > 0:00:38it becomes very difficult for Wales to deal with,
0:00:38 > 0:00:43if you like, the long-term effect of the economic situation we face.
0:00:43 > 0:00:45From talking to striking.
0:00:45 > 0:00:49As some argue for the first general strike since 1926,
0:00:49 > 0:00:54what is the most effective tactic for the unions?
0:00:54 > 0:01:00We're stating our opposition to some policies,
0:01:00 > 0:01:04but also using influence as far as we can to offer new ideas.
0:01:04 > 0:01:08Well, I'm pleased to say that Anna Brychan from the NAHT joins us
0:01:08 > 0:01:10in the studio,
0:01:10 > 0:01:14along with Aled Robert, North Wales Assembly Member for the Lib Dems, and
0:01:14 > 0:01:19the member for Preseli Pembrokeshire, Paul Davies of the Conservatives.
0:01:19 > 0:01:20Welcome to you all.
0:01:20 > 0:01:24Well, it's been a busy week for Danny Alexander,
0:01:24 > 0:01:27the Lib Dem deputy to George Osborne in the Treasury.
0:01:27 > 0:01:31He was in Glasgow yesterday to challenge SNP plans to keep
0:01:31 > 0:01:33the pound in an independent Scotland.
0:01:33 > 0:01:39Two days earlier, he was in Cardiff, discussing devolving tax powers.
0:01:39 > 0:01:44He insisted that action was needed, but does everyone agree?
0:01:44 > 0:01:49Tomos Livingstone visited Dyffryn Gardens in the Vale of Glamorgan.
0:01:59 > 0:02:03Which path should devolution take next?
0:02:03 > 0:02:06The Welsh Government spends billions each year,
0:02:06 > 0:02:10but they do not have tax raising powers.
0:02:10 > 0:02:13We have reached a crossways, says the UK Government.
0:02:13 > 0:02:17It's time to take a more accountable and democratic path.
0:02:17 > 0:02:20An independent commission has published a map suggesting
0:02:20 > 0:02:22the way forward.
0:02:22 > 0:02:25The Silk Commission says that giving the Welsh Government powers to
0:02:25 > 0:02:28vary income tax levels is the answer.
0:02:28 > 0:02:31Along with transferring powers for a number of minor taxes too.
0:02:31 > 0:02:36The Lib Dems in the UK Cabinet are keen to go ahead.
0:02:36 > 0:02:40We need a new model of devolution for Wales.
0:02:40 > 0:02:42A model in which additional responsibility for raising
0:02:42 > 0:02:45revenues strengthens accountability too.
0:02:45 > 0:02:49A model in which significant income tax powers unlock borrowing
0:02:49 > 0:02:51powers for Wales too.
0:02:51 > 0:02:53We're still working through our response to the
0:02:53 > 0:02:55Silk Commission with the Welsh Government.
0:02:55 > 0:02:59But I will not allow a response to Silk that doesn't meet those
0:02:59 > 0:03:01aspirations.
0:03:01 > 0:03:04So who is standing in the way?
0:03:04 > 0:03:06Is it possible that the other side of the coalition,
0:03:06 > 0:03:10the Conservatives, are happier with a more relaxed journey?
0:03:10 > 0:03:12If the dramatic changes,
0:03:12 > 0:03:16which include organising a referendum, are to happen before
0:03:16 > 0:03:20the next general election, everyone needs to be urged to take action.
0:03:21 > 0:03:25I think the biggest problem we are facing is the fact that
0:03:25 > 0:03:28Scotland is not going to stand still.
0:03:28 > 0:03:31Whatever happens with the referendum on independence,
0:03:31 > 0:03:34Scotland will have significant powers
0:03:34 > 0:03:37and that will include powers on taxes
0:03:37 > 0:03:40and then Wales would be the only country within the UK,
0:03:40 > 0:03:42and of course the only country in Europe too,
0:03:42 > 0:03:48where there is a process of devolution but no tax powers.
0:03:48 > 0:03:52So is the Labour Party the problem? They are in power in Cardiff Bay
0:03:52 > 0:03:56but uncertain at Westminster over the direction of devolution.
0:03:56 > 0:04:00In the past, Carwyn Jones has put more emphasis on reforming
0:04:00 > 0:04:03the grant the Welsh Government receives,
0:04:03 > 0:04:07but now the First Minister supports the devolution of income tax powers,
0:04:07 > 0:04:10as long as a referendum is held first of all.
0:04:10 > 0:04:15But he acknowledges that the party's MPs have different feelings.
0:04:15 > 0:04:18What is very important for us in the Labour Party
0:04:18 > 0:04:21is that we are certain that Wales will not be at a disadvantage.
0:04:21 > 0:04:23That is what is important is
0:04:23 > 0:04:26if there is any suggestion of the devolution of taxes,
0:04:26 > 0:04:30for example, and in particular income tax, there should be a
0:04:30 > 0:04:36referendum to hear the voice of the people of Wales, the Barnett Formula
0:04:36 > 0:04:41should be reformed and we should be certain that it is far for Wales
0:04:41 > 0:04:45and does not put Wales at a disadvantage.
0:04:45 > 0:04:48The key decisions will be made behind closed doors.
0:04:52 > 0:04:57Some kind of agreement or concession is expected over the coming weeks.
0:04:59 > 0:05:02One option being discussed at Westminster is to wait
0:05:02 > 0:05:05and include ideas in the parties' manifestos,
0:05:05 > 0:05:09maybe missing out on a referendum altogether.
0:05:09 > 0:05:13But it's possible that things will become clearer after next
0:05:13 > 0:05:16month's Queen's speech, listing the UK Government's priorities.
0:05:16 > 0:05:20So was Danny Alexander reminding everyone that the clock is
0:05:20 > 0:05:26ticking or are some people fed up of the wandering, looking ahead
0:05:26 > 0:05:29to a period of rest before devolution takes its next step?
0:05:33 > 0:05:37Dyffryn Gardens looking wonderful in the rain.
0:05:37 > 0:05:38Paul, this is a dialogue,
0:05:38 > 0:05:42so I don't want to portray it as a situation with splits within
0:05:42 > 0:05:47parties, but do you get the feeling that different factions within
0:05:47 > 0:05:51the parties, different parties, different governments,
0:05:51 > 0:05:54- are reaching some sort of consensus? - I think so.
0:05:54 > 0:05:56And here in the Assembly, of course,
0:05:56 > 0:06:00the parties have all made it pretty clear that they accept
0:06:00 > 0:06:03the recommendations of the Silk Commission,
0:06:03 > 0:06:09so I want to see this going ahead as soon as possible.
0:06:09 > 0:06:14I think what is important now is that the Welsh Government has
0:06:14 > 0:06:18responsibility to raise some taxes
0:06:18 > 0:06:23because we hear these constant excuses from the Government.
0:06:23 > 0:06:26To me, it makes no sense that the Welsh Government
0:06:26 > 0:06:30receives around £15 billion a year from the UK Government with
0:06:30 > 0:06:33no responsibility for raising any of that money
0:06:33 > 0:06:37because I think it is now important that there is accountability,
0:06:37 > 0:06:41as far as the Welsh Government.
0:06:41 > 0:06:44Do you think that David Jones, the Welsh Secretary,
0:06:44 > 0:06:47is as enthusiastic as you and Danny Alexander?
0:06:47 > 0:06:52Well, of course you will have different opinions regarding
0:06:52 > 0:06:55some powers, but I think that everyone is on the right track
0:06:55 > 0:06:57and we have all accepted
0:06:57 > 0:07:01the recommendations of the Silk Commission and we will
0:07:01 > 0:07:06see what the response is from the UK Government now in the coming weeks.
0:07:06 > 0:07:11You must be happy with what Danny Alexander said, Aled,
0:07:11 > 0:07:17but are you certain that Danny Alexander's words will be realised,
0:07:17 > 0:07:21remembering that there are different viewpoints within the Cabinet?
0:07:21 > 0:07:25We need to discuss matters, of course, but as Paul said, there is
0:07:25 > 0:07:30unanimity within Wales regarding the way forward and also it was
0:07:30 > 0:07:36expected that measures would be introduced within this parliament.
0:07:36 > 0:07:41We're not sure right now if it will be included in the Queen's
0:07:41 > 0:07:44speech on the 8th of May, but...
0:07:44 > 0:07:47If it is not, it is unlikely to be within this parliament, I'd say.
0:07:47 > 0:07:51- Two years until the next general election.- Yes.
0:07:51 > 0:07:55I think that we must move forward, but I would not say it is impossible
0:07:55 > 0:07:59to move ahead within this parliament
0:07:59 > 0:08:02if there is nothing on the 8th.
0:08:02 > 0:08:06It will be more difficult and I think, from what I have heard,
0:08:06 > 0:08:08steps forward are being taken.
0:08:08 > 0:08:11But time will tell.
0:08:11 > 0:08:16Anna, I'm not asking you to predict anything - you don't have the links
0:08:16 > 0:08:21these two have, but to what extent do you think the process is maybe
0:08:21 > 0:08:28a more important step for the Assembly than the last referendum?
0:08:28 > 0:08:34That the question Paul raises regarding responsibility,
0:08:34 > 0:08:37- accountability, is key? - Yes, it is key.
0:08:37 > 0:08:40And it is interesting that we are already on our third settlement
0:08:40 > 0:08:44since 1999 regarding how we go about things.
0:08:44 > 0:08:48And what is striking is that we now have the
0:08:48 > 0:08:50experience of legislating
0:08:50 > 0:08:54and we have all played a small part in that process,
0:08:54 > 0:08:57or a large part of that process, that the
0:08:57 > 0:09:00parties in the Assembly are all of the opinion that we need to
0:09:00 > 0:09:03move forward to ensure the process is as strong as it can be.
0:09:03 > 0:09:07And I accept this argument regarding accountability.
0:09:07 > 0:09:10It is a strange situation, as I understand it,
0:09:10 > 0:09:16community councils have more money raising powers than the Assembly.
0:09:16 > 0:09:19I'm not sure everyone realises that.
0:09:19 > 0:09:23And that then affects the government's
0:09:23 > 0:09:29accountability in Cardiff Bay and people would accept that argument.
0:09:29 > 0:09:31There is no-one from the Labour Party here,
0:09:31 > 0:09:34so I don't want to give you too much of a free hit,
0:09:34 > 0:09:38but it makes it very easy for a government of any colour here
0:09:38 > 0:09:42to blame the Westminster Government for things.
0:09:42 > 0:09:45Yes, maybe it does.
0:09:45 > 0:09:49Some of the debates in the Senedd are not always that much fun
0:09:49 > 0:09:52to watch for that reason,
0:09:52 > 0:09:58but it's not only the Labour Party who are to blame for that.
0:09:58 > 0:10:02I think if we were able to move
0:10:02 > 0:10:07forward from that, it would benefit the public debates we have in Wales.
0:10:07 > 0:10:13The debate over Wales, of course, is not as important to the
0:10:13 > 0:10:15UK Government as the debate over Scotland.
0:10:15 > 0:10:19There, we're talking about changing national boundaries,
0:10:19 > 0:10:22the end of the Kingdom, if you like.
0:10:22 > 0:10:25To what extent, Paul,
0:10:25 > 0:10:30do you believe that people like David Cameron are saying to themselves -
0:10:30 > 0:10:35look, we need to be seen to be generous, giving Wales what it wants,
0:10:35 > 0:10:39to show people in Scotland that they are willing to do something?
0:10:39 > 0:10:43If independence is turned down that they will be generous?
0:10:43 > 0:10:49It doesn't benefit the UK Government to be difficult regarding
0:10:49 > 0:10:51devolution right now.
0:10:51 > 0:10:54No, and I understand that
0:10:54 > 0:10:59and I think that the public in general understands that.
0:10:59 > 0:11:01It is a situation that can cause
0:11:01 > 0:11:07tensions between the UK Government and Scotland.
0:11:07 > 0:11:10But what is important here is, and I am confident that
0:11:10 > 0:11:15when the referendum is held next year that the people of Scotland
0:11:15 > 0:11:21will want to remain within the UK, and that is what is important.
0:11:21 > 0:11:24Carwyn Jones has called for a constitutional convention,
0:11:24 > 0:11:28David Cameron has more or less agreed,
0:11:28 > 0:11:33but says that it should come after the Scottish referendum,
0:11:33 > 0:11:36if Scotland votes to remain within the UK.
0:11:36 > 0:11:42Would such a convention be able to reach a relatively permanent
0:11:42 > 0:11:47settlement, Aled? I must say, I'm a political anorak.
0:11:47 > 0:11:50I've been covering this story since the '79 referendum.
0:11:50 > 0:11:52And I'm starting to get bored!
0:11:52 > 0:11:57How long did they take to write the US Constitution? A week? A year?
0:11:57 > 0:12:00I don't know. But they didn't take decades.
0:12:00 > 0:12:03I think the situation in Britain is very complicated
0:12:03 > 0:12:06because of the size of England compared to the other countries.
0:12:06 > 0:12:11And until we know exactly what the people of Scotland think,
0:12:11 > 0:12:14it's hard to know how things will move forward.
0:12:14 > 0:12:17My party has of course always stood for some
0:12:17 > 0:12:21kind of self-governance within the UK.
0:12:21 > 0:12:26But of course, there are difficult matters
0:12:26 > 0:12:28because of the size of England.
0:12:28 > 0:12:34But I don't personally see it being a simple process.
0:12:34 > 0:12:38Do you foresee any permanent settlement in the near future?
0:12:38 > 0:12:43It doesn't look very likely at the moment.
0:12:43 > 0:12:46But if the US Constitution was written in a week,
0:12:46 > 0:12:51some aspects of that, regarding gun control and so on, they still
0:12:51 > 0:12:56cause problems now, so maybe they should have taken longer over it.
0:12:56 > 0:12:58Paul.
0:12:58 > 0:13:04I think it is important that we see a constitutional
0:13:04 > 0:13:06settlement across the UK
0:13:06 > 0:13:10and that it is balanced because unfortunately
0:13:10 > 0:13:13we have in Wales a form of devolution,
0:13:13 > 0:13:17we have something different in Scotland and Northern Ireland
0:13:17 > 0:13:19and of course there is nothing in England
0:13:19 > 0:13:23and that is why I believe we must have this debate to
0:13:23 > 0:13:27ensure that there is a balanced constitution across the UK.
0:13:27 > 0:13:30And that is what I am urging my party to do,
0:13:30 > 0:13:33to have this debate, and I have said it before,
0:13:33 > 0:13:36if I was a Conservative MP in England, more than likely,
0:13:36 > 0:13:41I would be campaigning for an English parliament because
0:13:41 > 0:13:45I want to see parliaments across the UK and to have that balance.
0:13:45 > 0:13:48Thank you. Well, things are not
0:13:48 > 0:13:52good between the English Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt and the nurses.
0:13:52 > 0:13:57At the beginning of the week, the RCN called one of his policies "stupid".
0:13:57 > 0:14:00Well, he served a political volley back in their direction.
0:14:00 > 0:14:02The matter was an English only policy,
0:14:02 > 0:14:06so we won't go after that, but it is another example of an
0:14:06 > 0:14:09increasingly harsh attitude from the unions towards the coalition,
0:14:09 > 0:14:12with some union leaders even considering calling
0:14:12 > 0:14:15for a general strike.
0:14:15 > 0:14:18But how should unions deal with governments?
0:14:18 > 0:14:20Should they be cooperating
0:14:20 > 0:14:24and charming each other or is fighting the best option?
0:14:24 > 0:14:27Anna Brychan, one of our guests this evening,
0:14:27 > 0:14:31explains the path her union is trying to follow in the world of education.
0:14:31 > 0:14:34No ifs, no buts, no pension cuts!
0:14:37 > 0:14:42When NAHT members, heads and deputies in our schools,
0:14:42 > 0:14:48went on strike for the first time in our history, it was over pensions.
0:14:48 > 0:14:52And proposed changes to pensions.
0:14:52 > 0:14:55And that was a Westminster policy.
0:14:55 > 0:14:57And the government in Cardiff
0:14:57 > 0:15:03and Assembly Members in Cardiff did tend to support the unions in this.
0:15:03 > 0:15:08And so, it was a matter of holding talks with two governments.
0:15:11 > 0:15:15Our starting point as a union each time is to represent
0:15:15 > 0:15:20the professional opinion of our members.
0:15:20 > 0:15:21They are heads in our schools,
0:15:21 > 0:15:24they have vital expertise that they can offer to the
0:15:24 > 0:15:31work of forming education policies that affect our schools in Wales.
0:15:31 > 0:15:33That is our starting point.
0:15:33 > 0:15:39We lobby the government, suggesting policy changes, we also
0:15:39 > 0:15:45suggest ways in which the government can present and introduce its ideas.
0:15:45 > 0:15:51We're trying to create and sustain a professional relationship in that.
0:15:51 > 0:15:53In the long-term, of course,
0:15:53 > 0:15:57this is a government that has been elected to do the work
0:15:57 > 0:16:01and we can't stop them from doing things,
0:16:01 > 0:16:05just by saying that they are taking the wrong steps.
0:16:05 > 0:16:08That is democracy.
0:16:12 > 0:16:16Sometimes we reach a point where we realise that we are not going
0:16:16 > 0:16:22to reach an agreement, that we cannot influence or change matters,
0:16:22 > 0:16:26and if that then leads to a decision that we cannot agree to,
0:16:26 > 0:16:33that we think is truly damaging for our schools, then the decision
0:16:33 > 0:16:41comes to make the matter public, to explain to the public and to parents
0:16:41 > 0:16:49why we disagree so strongly regarding some aspects of policy.
0:16:49 > 0:16:55And I also think that politicians realise, or I hope that they
0:16:55 > 0:16:58do, that from the standpoint of confidence and faith,
0:16:58 > 0:17:04the public have more confidence in our teachers
0:17:04 > 0:17:07and our heads than they do in politicians.
0:17:07 > 0:17:10And that is also an important consideration in moving forward
0:17:10 > 0:17:13and stating our opposition to some policies,
0:17:13 > 0:17:16but also using influence as much as we can to put forward new ideas
0:17:16 > 0:17:21and try to maintain a constructive relationship each time.
0:17:21 > 0:17:25We do not always succeed,
0:17:25 > 0:17:30but sometimes we have to take further steps.
0:17:30 > 0:17:35- Anna Brychan, thank you for being our correspondent!- You're welcome!
0:17:35 > 0:17:38A new experience for me!
0:17:38 > 0:17:42I take it that heads would not join a general strike.
0:17:42 > 0:17:46As I said, we have only been on strike once in our history,
0:17:46 > 0:17:54which is 115 years, so we do not take strike action lightly.
0:17:54 > 0:17:59Talks over a general strike, as the footage at the top of the programme
0:17:59 > 0:18:06suggested, what is going through our minds is the general strike of 1926.
0:18:06 > 0:18:10I doubt we would see something like that again.
0:18:10 > 0:18:14It would be a day of action. A day of coordinated strikes.
0:18:14 > 0:18:20- Yes.- Aled, when we discussed the death of Mrs Thatcher last week,
0:18:20 > 0:18:24it was interesting that one thing that she did that most people
0:18:24 > 0:18:29agreed with was the changes she introduced to the unions -
0:18:29 > 0:18:33insisting on a vote before a strike, a secret ballot,
0:18:33 > 0:18:37electing for specific periods and so on,
0:18:37 > 0:18:40so are you saddened to see Boris Johnson for example
0:18:40 > 0:18:44saying that he wants to take the fight to the unions?
0:18:44 > 0:18:49The unions aren't what they were during Margaret Thatcher's time.
0:18:49 > 0:18:53No, the unions still have a role to play in representing
0:18:53 > 0:18:55their members' interests.
0:18:55 > 0:19:00And I think it is important that we defend those rights.
0:19:00 > 0:19:06But there is a step further, if unions just create political
0:19:06 > 0:19:12situations against a government elected democratically.
0:19:12 > 0:19:15The problem there is the boundary.
0:19:15 > 0:19:18The government makes decisions, political decisions,
0:19:18 > 0:19:23because of the state of the economy, they are political decisions,
0:19:23 > 0:19:26but the effects on individuals...
0:19:26 > 0:19:29It affects their salaries and working conditions.
0:19:29 > 0:19:32So what is a political decision for a government is
0:19:32 > 0:19:35a matter for union members.
0:19:35 > 0:19:39Yes, but I think that most of the population now
0:19:39 > 0:19:44understand that the country is in a very difficult economic situation.
0:19:44 > 0:19:51And as a result, they have to take steps to deal with the deficit.
0:19:51 > 0:19:57But I don't think that it is beneficial for ministers to
0:19:57 > 0:19:59attack unions.
0:19:59 > 0:20:05We need a constructive relationship and I don't think what
0:20:05 > 0:20:10we have heard this past fortnight helps either side.
0:20:10 > 0:20:17On Radio Cymru today, Paul, Guto Bebb, the member for Aberconwy,
0:20:17 > 0:20:20attacked what he called the comfortable services -
0:20:20 > 0:20:26the public services. Do those kind of words help?
0:20:26 > 0:20:29Well, what is important at the end of the day is that there is a
0:20:29 > 0:20:34positive relationship between the unions and any government.
0:20:34 > 0:20:37And I think that on the whole that is what is happening.
0:20:37 > 0:20:40When I was the Conservative spokesperson here for education,
0:20:40 > 0:20:44I has a very good relationship with Anna and her union.
0:20:44 > 0:20:46And that is what is important - that unions
0:20:46 > 0:20:50and governments sit down together to discuss matters.
0:20:50 > 0:20:53Of course, there will be disagreement on matters
0:20:53 > 0:20:58and policies, but while people are talking, that is what is important.
0:20:58 > 0:21:02You said earlier, picking up on your point on Margaret Thatcher,
0:21:02 > 0:21:05that people did not oppose what she did - well, there was
0:21:05 > 0:21:07opposition at the time.
0:21:07 > 0:21:10You had people like Arthur Scargill and others.
0:21:10 > 0:21:13But I think Margaret Thatcher won the argument
0:21:13 > 0:21:16and I think that the Conservative Party won the argument.
0:21:16 > 0:21:18And no-one now, not even the unions,
0:21:18 > 0:21:21say that we should return to those times.
0:21:21 > 0:21:25So why are some politicians, such as Boris Johnson,
0:21:25 > 0:21:30maybe Guto Bebb, returning to the rhetoric of that time?
0:21:30 > 0:21:34I'm not sure that they want to return to that time.
0:21:34 > 0:21:37No, but the type of language and rhetoric that is being used.
0:21:37 > 0:21:41They want to make the point and warn the unions
0:21:41 > 0:21:45and others that we are facing difficult financial situations
0:21:45 > 0:21:48and that we must deal with it.
0:21:48 > 0:21:53Also, it is important to understand now that a percentage of the workers
0:21:53 > 0:21:58within the comfortable services, to use that phrase,
0:21:58 > 0:22:03is far smaller than it was even ten years ago.
0:22:03 > 0:22:06And so there are clear questions regarding
0:22:06 > 0:22:11whether the unions have the power to carry out a general strike.
0:22:11 > 0:22:15Well, I would say, Anna, that the unions would have the power to
0:22:15 > 0:22:22cause a lot of inconvenience for a lot of people.
0:22:22 > 0:22:27If people walked out of leisure centres and so on,
0:22:27 > 0:22:34that does cause inconvenience, but it does not seem to me that the
0:22:34 > 0:22:39traditional strike exists, where people walked out and stayed out.
0:22:39 > 0:22:45For weeks, for months. For over a year, three years even.
0:22:45 > 0:22:50That does not happen. Lose a day's pay, maybe an afternoon.
0:22:50 > 0:22:56No, we will not see a return to that kind of strike action,
0:22:56 > 0:23:01but as far as rhetoric, I think that it is dangerous.
0:23:01 > 0:23:07It creates a scenario that I do not believe is the right scenario.
0:23:07 > 0:23:11And our members in England, in particular,
0:23:11 > 0:23:14have been concerned about this,
0:23:14 > 0:23:21that headteachers are being urged to take up a fight against the unions
0:23:21 > 0:23:26representing teachers up against a government that wants an argument.
0:23:26 > 0:23:31Michael Gove, is England's Leighton Andrews. He likes a fight, it seems.
0:23:31 > 0:23:33Ooh!
0:23:33 > 0:23:38I don't know what either would think about that! You'll have to ask them!
0:23:38 > 0:23:41Ask Leighton Andrews next time he's on the programme.
0:23:41 > 0:23:46But I think it's a mistake to try and create a public
0:23:46 > 0:23:49portrait of that kind and to bring back the images of the '80s.
0:23:49 > 0:23:51We don't live in that world any more.
0:23:51 > 0:23:53And I think it is a mistake
0:23:53 > 0:23:58and it is misleading to suggest otherwise to the public.
0:23:58 > 0:24:00Thank you. That is it for another week.
0:24:00 > 0:24:03Thanks to my guests and thank you for watching.
0:24:03 > 0:24:06We're back at the same time next week. Until then, good evening.