0:00:18 > 0:00:24Good evening and welcome to CF99 live from the National Assembly
0:00:24 > 0:00:25in Cardiff Bay.
0:00:25 > 0:00:27On tonight's programme -
0:00:27 > 0:00:32David Cameron had just grown out of his short trousers in the early 90s
0:00:32 > 0:00:35but Europe is still causing concern for his party.
0:00:35 > 0:00:38I am very sceptical of the relationship that we have now.
0:00:38 > 0:00:41We need a referendum and we need a discussion.
0:00:41 > 0:00:48And why does this golden haired boy want to change the Assembly's name?
0:00:48 > 0:00:53I'm joined by former First Minister Rhodri Morgan,
0:00:53 > 0:00:57the Liberal Democrats' head of communications, Myrddin Edwards
0:00:57 > 0:01:03and Bethan Kilfoil, a reporter with RTE from Dublin.
0:01:03 > 0:01:06Welcome to all three of you.
0:01:06 > 0:01:12Later, someone who you have seen on the news, Glyn Davies.
0:01:12 > 0:01:17Back in the early 90s, a mobile phone looked like a brick,
0:01:17 > 0:01:21the age's miracle was a fax.
0:01:21 > 0:01:26And young people used to dance madly to acid house music in fields.
0:01:26 > 0:01:29But some things haven't changed.
0:01:29 > 0:01:32Dafydd Iwan is still threatening to hold his last concert
0:01:32 > 0:01:35and the Tories are still arguing over Europe.
0:01:35 > 0:01:39There was no raves nor Dafydd Iwan for the young Tomos Livingston,
0:01:39 > 0:01:43he was busy swatting constituency statistics in his bedroom!
0:01:43 > 0:01:48Tonight, he looks into the archives to consider whether the 90s arguments
0:01:48 > 0:01:51still ring true today.
0:01:51 > 0:01:56Who remembers the battles and the arguments of 20 years ago?
0:01:56 > 0:02:00We believe in the United Kingdom, and I promise you we will fight
0:02:00 > 0:02:02for the United Kingdom.
0:02:25 > 0:02:29It's possible that even Conservative MPs had forgotten
0:02:29 > 0:02:34who were at the top of the charts or who won the Grand National.
0:02:34 > 0:02:39But one thing that continues to cause debate, Europe.
0:02:39 > 0:02:44Europe is very important for the Conservative Party.
0:02:44 > 0:02:49People believe soundly in Britishness.
0:02:49 > 0:02:53You could argue that some within the Labour Party
0:02:53 > 0:02:56don't believe strongly in Britishness,
0:02:56 > 0:03:00but you also have strong left-wingers who believe strongly
0:03:00 > 0:03:04in Britishness and don't believe in Europe.
0:03:04 > 0:03:10The Maastricht Treaty nearly tore John Major's government apart.
0:03:10 > 0:03:15But it was the image that the Tories spent time
0:03:15 > 0:03:20on a constitutional subject that did the most damage.
0:03:20 > 0:03:23David Cameron was in the background at the time.
0:03:23 > 0:03:26He was working for the Chancellor, Norman Lamont.
0:03:26 > 0:03:31He hoped to change his party's views.
0:03:35 > 0:03:40The backbenchers only quietened for the time being.
0:03:40 > 0:03:44Following the general election,
0:03:44 > 0:03:49they have not been doing anything to keep things quiet.
0:03:49 > 0:03:53The Tories agree that there is a need for a referendum,
0:03:53 > 0:03:55everyone accepts that.
0:03:55 > 0:03:59David Cameron and even Douglas Caswell agrees on that.
0:03:59 > 0:04:02The difference is we have a coalition.
0:04:02 > 0:04:04Half the coalition,
0:04:04 > 0:04:07or the smaller part of it, is not in favour of this.
0:04:07 > 0:04:10The differences between the Liberal Democrats
0:04:10 > 0:04:13and the Conservative Party.
0:04:13 > 0:04:20The Conservative Party is more Euro-sceptic now than in 1992.
0:04:20 > 0:04:24But why is there such an obsession when opinion polls show
0:04:24 > 0:04:30the general public are more interested in other things?
0:04:30 > 0:04:33The Conservative Party is more an Euro-sceptic,
0:04:33 > 0:04:36because there is more evidence by now, 20 years later.
0:04:36 > 0:04:42More evidence that Europe is not working in the way
0:04:42 > 0:04:46the leaders of this country had hoped it would.
0:04:50 > 0:04:54Will there be an escape for David Cameron?
0:04:54 > 0:04:57The Prime Minister hopes there is some electoral advantage from this.
0:04:57 > 0:05:05The Welsh Labour Party says we do not need a referendum at all.
0:05:07 > 0:05:11There is always a case of a negotiating the UK's position
0:05:11 > 0:05:16in the EU and influencing the EU.
0:05:16 > 0:05:20Why would we want to support a referendum which may lead
0:05:20 > 0:05:25to people losing billions of pounds in Wales? It doesn't make sense.
0:05:25 > 0:05:29Some may argue that the political wheel has turned.
0:05:29 > 0:05:33Their party is more united than in John Major's time.
0:05:33 > 0:05:36But will Europe excite the voters in the next election,
0:05:36 > 0:05:41or is it a question from the past?
0:05:45 > 0:05:50Tomos Livingston. Were you longing for those voices
0:05:50 > 0:05:54which you use to report on before?
0:05:54 > 0:06:01It made me feel old. Things haven't changed much, have they?
0:06:01 > 0:06:08The arguments about Europe
0:06:08 > 0:06:14and within the Conservative Party are still there.
0:06:14 > 0:06:20There was a period of fighting over Europe in the early 1990s.
0:06:20 > 0:06:26It happened within the Conservative Party in Westminster.
0:06:26 > 0:06:32Margaret Thatcher came to Brussels to fight her corner.
0:06:32 > 0:06:36We couldn't see it in the European Parliament.
0:06:36 > 0:06:39Margaret Thatcher was a big character,
0:06:39 > 0:06:43but by the time John Major came to power
0:06:43 > 0:06:48most of the battles to a place in Westminster rather than Europe.
0:06:48 > 0:06:52I know that you remember the time well.
0:06:52 > 0:06:56All this argument made John Major look weak.
0:06:56 > 0:07:02He looked like he was being blown in every direction.
0:07:02 > 0:07:08He was a prisoner to his party and the Euro-sceptics within the party.
0:07:08 > 0:07:15It was a government that didn't have a big majority.
0:07:15 > 0:07:23The European Commission realised he did have problems
0:07:23 > 0:07:28and that he had to perform and say certain things
0:07:28 > 0:07:32because of the situation.
0:07:32 > 0:07:38He was acting one way in Brussels and in the European Union
0:07:38 > 0:07:43and then acting in a different way when they went back to Britain.
0:07:43 > 0:07:50He was a prisoner of his own circumstances.
0:07:50 > 0:07:55Can you understand, talking to Conservatives that time
0:07:55 > 0:08:01and people in Europe, do people in Brussels
0:08:01 > 0:08:09understand why this Euro-sceptic wave has continued
0:08:09 > 0:08:16when it seemed to have disappeared in other countries?
0:08:18 > 0:08:25Opinion polls show there has been an increase in Euroscepticism
0:08:25 > 0:08:30in a number of countries.
0:08:30 > 0:08:34Ireland has benefited a lot from Europe over the years,
0:08:34 > 0:08:40but the people of Ireland have voted against European agreements.
0:08:42 > 0:08:50They voted against the Nice and Lisbon Treaty is in recent years.
0:08:50 > 0:08:56They have voted against them twice.
0:08:56 > 0:09:00There are strong feelings in a lot of countries, not just Britain,
0:09:00 > 0:09:03but the feelings are much stronger in Britain.
0:09:03 > 0:09:07We have much stronger Euro-sceptics in Britain.
0:09:07 > 0:09:10How do you think Brussels will react
0:09:10 > 0:09:15when it hears this promise of a referendum?
0:09:15 > 0:09:19They are dealing with Cyprus and Spain and Portugal
0:09:19 > 0:09:22and the economic situation there.
0:09:22 > 0:09:26Are there some that will have had enough of Britain?
0:09:26 > 0:09:29That is the general feeling.
0:09:29 > 0:09:33Britain has caused a great deal of problems for Europe in the past.
0:09:33 > 0:09:37You have a strong relationship between France and Germany,
0:09:37 > 0:09:42and you have Britain on the sidelines once again.
0:09:42 > 0:09:45That is the feeling.
0:09:45 > 0:09:50The Conservatives once again fighting over Europe.
0:09:50 > 0:09:54Thank you for joining us.
0:09:54 > 0:09:58If I can turn to you, Rhodri Morgan,
0:09:58 > 0:10:02you were a representative of the European community,
0:10:02 > 0:10:04as it was known at the time.
0:10:04 > 0:10:10Why do you believe this Euroscepticism
0:10:10 > 0:10:14has continued with the Conservatives, mostly in the right-wing sector,
0:10:14 > 0:10:18but it appears to be going throughout?
0:10:18 > 0:10:25We saw this at its worst during the debate on the Maastricht Treaty.
0:10:25 > 0:10:28There was a lot of physical battles in those days.
0:10:28 > 0:10:33Rod Richard had to push Walter Sweeney to vote with him,
0:10:33 > 0:10:38but then I had to push Rod Richards out of the way.
0:10:38 > 0:10:41I thought I had a right to do that
0:10:41 > 0:10:46because I lived in Walter Sweeney's constituency at the time.
0:10:46 > 0:10:51Those were the old days, 20 years ago.
0:10:51 > 0:10:53Things have become much worse.
0:10:53 > 0:10:57The psychology of the backbenchers has changed.
0:10:57 > 0:11:02Around 50 rebels were involved in 1993,
0:11:02 > 0:11:06now there are over a hundred.
0:11:06 > 0:11:12I remember the vote on the referendum on the measure.
0:11:12 > 0:11:17They were people who wanted a referendum now not in five years.
0:11:17 > 0:11:21There were 89 rebels two years ago.
0:11:21 > 0:11:26I spoke to them later and they said
0:11:26 > 0:11:31that was the most important rebellion since the Norway vote
0:11:31 > 0:11:38which led to Winston Churchill coming in as Prime Minister.
0:11:38 > 0:11:40There were 40 rebels that time.
0:11:43 > 0:11:48It was enough. It was enough because it caused the fall
0:11:48 > 0:11:52of Neville Chamberlain's government.
0:11:52 > 0:11:58But David Cameron has yielded ground to these rebels.
0:11:58 > 0:12:02Yes, but you are much more prepared to rebel against the whip now
0:12:02 > 0:12:06than people were before.
0:12:08 > 0:12:13The psychology now tells you that rebellion is more popular.
0:12:13 > 0:12:16I was under the impression that this was to do with
0:12:16 > 0:12:23the constituency boundaries changing,
0:12:23 > 0:12:26so it is not going to happen now,
0:12:26 > 0:12:31but people want to prove that they are better MPs.
0:12:31 > 0:12:35But that isn't going to happen now but the psychology has changed.
0:12:35 > 0:12:39The more Euro-sceptic you are, the more popular you are,
0:12:39 > 0:12:46and the more likely you are to be chosen as their representative.
0:12:46 > 0:12:51Glyn Davies, we heard you on the news programme earlier
0:12:51 > 0:12:55saying you didn't understand why this was happening.
0:12:55 > 0:13:01David Cameron has given these people what they want,
0:13:01 > 0:13:04but 130 of them have gone through this again.
0:13:04 > 0:13:09What's odd is that all these 130 MPs
0:13:09 > 0:13:16just want what we I want and what David Cameron wants.
0:13:16 > 0:13:22The message will be going to the European Union
0:13:22 > 0:13:26that Cameron wishes to save the relationship between us and the EU.
0:13:30 > 0:13:34But I'm not sure what was behind it.
0:13:34 > 0:13:37How much damage will this do for the party?
0:13:37 > 0:13:41If people believe the party is split
0:13:41 > 0:13:45then people will not have any faith in the party?
0:13:45 > 0:13:52Everyone knows that I'm not happy about what has happened.
0:13:52 > 0:13:58I didn't want to see an amendment on the Queen's Speech.
0:13:58 > 0:14:05I didn't think it was something we should do as Conservatives.
0:14:05 > 0:14:08But this has happened.
0:14:08 > 0:14:15More people voted in favour of the amendment than I expected.
0:14:15 > 0:14:23It is a strong message, but I am not sure what the message is.
0:14:23 > 0:14:27It is a message for the European Union.
0:14:27 > 0:14:30We all want to have this referendum.
0:14:30 > 0:14:35Perhaps the message was if the Conservatives
0:14:35 > 0:14:39believed they will win a majority,
0:14:39 > 0:14:42they would accept David Cameron's word.
0:14:42 > 0:14:45But a significant amount believes there will be
0:14:45 > 0:14:50another hung parliament and this vote is to tell David Cameron
0:14:50 > 0:14:56to realise that this is the red line that he must not yield on?
0:14:56 > 0:15:03Personally, this shows weak leadership in David Cameron.
0:15:03 > 0:15:08He has given in on this far too easily.
0:15:08 > 0:15:10What are they going to ask for next?
0:15:10 > 0:15:13The Conservatives work better when they work in a pack
0:15:13 > 0:15:15and they are faithful to the party.
0:15:15 > 0:15:19Things are looking very shambolic at the moment.
0:15:19 > 0:15:23I was watching Prime Minister's Questions yesterday,
0:15:23 > 0:15:26Nick Clegg had an opportunity to differentiate and show
0:15:26 > 0:15:28what the Liberal Democrats believed.
0:15:28 > 0:15:31As Liberal Democrats, we are happy.
0:15:31 > 0:15:36Labour seem to be happy arguing with the Conservatives,
0:15:36 > 0:15:40but Nick Clegg replaced David Cameron today
0:15:40 > 0:15:46and show that we as Liberal Democrats believe
0:15:47 > 0:15:51the foundation blocks of the coalition are most important.
0:15:54 > 0:16:00This issue is taking away from matter.
0:16:00 > 0:16:05Is there a danger that the affect of this on the public
0:16:05 > 0:16:08will make them unhappy with the Conservative Party,
0:16:08 > 0:16:12but also unhappy with politicians in general?
0:16:12 > 0:16:17People are concerned about their jobs and the NHS and hear the politicians
0:16:17 > 0:16:20talking about Europe again.
0:16:20 > 0:16:24If you are unhappy with politicians,
0:16:24 > 0:16:30then the most likely thing you will do is vote for smaller parties
0:16:30 > 0:16:32such as UKIP.
0:16:32 > 0:16:36They are seen as anti-politics,
0:16:36 > 0:16:41but they are even more obsessional about Europe.
0:16:41 > 0:16:45I can't see how you can make any sense
0:16:45 > 0:16:49out of that circle.
0:16:49 > 0:16:52That is what is happening at the moment.
0:16:52 > 0:16:57They wanted to kick the traditional parties,
0:16:57 > 0:17:02and then they moved to these other parties.
0:17:05 > 0:17:10UKIP are obsessed about Europe.
0:17:10 > 0:17:14Glyn, do you believe that the fear of UKIP is what is behind all of this?
0:17:14 > 0:17:18I think they have had an effect.
0:17:18 > 0:17:23At the next general election in 2015,
0:17:23 > 0:17:28people will be looking at who has offered the referendum.
0:17:28 > 0:17:35Perhaps they will vote for UKIP or to get a referendum, the Tories.
0:17:36 > 0:17:41Do you believe that it's true or do you believe that Ed Miliband,
0:17:41 > 0:17:46sooner or later, will make a promise for the Labour Party?
0:17:46 > 0:17:49He has avoided the question so far.
0:17:49 > 0:17:53They cannot accept the government message.
0:17:53 > 0:17:56The government has conditions connected to this promise
0:17:56 > 0:17:58of a referendum.
0:17:58 > 0:18:05Cameron says he wants to renegotiate Britain's place in Europe.
0:18:05 > 0:18:08It's only after all these dealings take place
0:18:08 > 0:18:12that a referendum would be held.
0:18:12 > 0:18:15We do not know what the terms would be.
0:18:15 > 0:18:21If Cameron started that process now, then we would have a better idea
0:18:25 > 0:18:31about whether things are heading in the right direction.
0:18:31 > 0:18:34There would be a situation then,
0:18:34 > 0:18:40and we would know that it would make sense to hold a referendum.
0:18:40 > 0:18:44But he has said this will not happen until after the next election,
0:18:44 > 0:18:48and that he must still be in power at the time.
0:18:48 > 0:18:52We have to remember that the government has legislated
0:18:52 > 0:18:55to make sure if there is any change,
0:18:55 > 0:19:00then we must hold a referendum.
0:19:00 > 0:19:07We have many advantages of being part of the union in Wales
0:19:07 > 0:19:12and I personally would like to stay in the EU.
0:19:12 > 0:19:18What should we call this place? Decent suggestions only!
0:19:18 > 0:19:23The name of the establishment is the National Assembly of Wales.
0:19:23 > 0:19:26But during Welsh Questions at the House of Commons,
0:19:26 > 0:19:29the MP for Lichfield called for a change.
0:19:29 > 0:19:32In the light of the Silk review,
0:19:32 > 0:19:36which is likely to give fundraising powers to the National Assembly,
0:19:36 > 0:19:43does he not agree with me and with the leader of the Welsh Tories
0:19:43 > 0:19:47that now is the time to start considering calling it
0:19:47 > 0:19:52the Welsh Parliament?
0:19:52 > 0:19:55The Silk Commission has not yet completed its work,
0:19:55 > 0:19:59it will be reporting next year.
0:19:59 > 0:20:03The title National Assembly is one that is used
0:20:03 > 0:20:06by the primary legislators of countries
0:20:06 > 0:20:12like France and South Africa and by the regional legislators for Quebec.
0:20:12 > 0:20:16The issue is what the legislator does and not what it is called.
0:20:16 > 0:20:22I don't think we can call that a slap to RT Davies,
0:20:22 > 0:20:26the leader of the Welsh Tories, but it was not far from that.
0:20:26 > 0:20:30That sounded very much like Andrew RT Davies,
0:20:30 > 0:20:34She came up with the idea last summer.
0:20:34 > 0:20:38I happen to see the Welsh Secretary coming in
0:20:38 > 0:20:43when that question was asked.
0:20:43 > 0:20:46She had said no at the time. He said no just then.
0:20:46 > 0:20:49I would rather Andrew RT Davies and David Jones
0:20:49 > 0:20:53work together so we can see the recommendations
0:20:53 > 0:20:55of the Silk Commission coming through.
0:20:55 > 0:20:58Does it matter?
0:20:58 > 0:21:03No, I would like to know what Glyn Davies thinks.
0:21:03 > 0:21:06He is one of the few people
0:21:06 > 0:21:10who have crossed from the Assembly to Westminster.
0:21:10 > 0:21:14There are two others, Alun Cairns and David Davies.
0:21:14 > 0:21:21Tory members of Parliament are much more devolution sceptic
0:21:21 > 0:21:27than the Conservative members in the Assembly.
0:21:27 > 0:21:29It seems to be a split.
0:21:29 > 0:21:34Conservatives tend to be devolution sceptics,
0:21:34 > 0:21:38anything that sounds like an increase in status or power
0:21:38 > 0:21:45or prestige, they will want to diminish.
0:21:45 > 0:21:48The same can be said about Europe.
0:21:51 > 0:21:58They want a House of Commons that has control over everything.
0:21:58 > 0:22:04Perhaps you could say the same for Labour MPs and Labour AM?
0:22:04 > 0:22:09Glyn, does it matter?
0:22:09 > 0:22:15It doesn't matter that much if Assembling members
0:22:15 > 0:22:21wanted to have a new name, then they should vote on it.
0:22:21 > 0:22:24If they use the word Parliament,
0:22:24 > 0:22:31I'm sure it would catch on and other people would call it that as well.
0:22:31 > 0:22:37People will use whatever name we give it.
0:22:37 > 0:22:40Rhodri Morgan was the one who decided we would call it
0:22:40 > 0:22:47the Welsh government rather than the Welsh executive.
0:22:48 > 0:22:53We also changed the terms Secretaries to Ministers.
0:22:53 > 0:22:57No-one in Wales understood the term, Secretary.
0:22:57 > 0:23:03No-one understood what First Secretary meant
0:23:03 > 0:23:07or what the terms Secretary of this and that, meant.
0:23:07 > 0:23:11But they did understand the term, Minister.
0:23:11 > 0:23:15They have changed the terms in Scotland to Secretaries,
0:23:15 > 0:23:19so they change from time to time.
0:23:19 > 0:23:24I did not phone Tony Blair to ask for permission.
0:23:24 > 0:23:29I did it and people were happy with it.
0:23:29 > 0:23:32Did Tony Blair say anything about it?
0:23:32 > 0:23:35No, I don't think so. I think the biggest devolution sceptics say
0:23:35 > 0:23:39I played a big part in legislation, but there is nothing
0:23:39 > 0:23:46in the constitution to say you should use the term Prime Minister.
0:23:46 > 0:23:52The correct title is First Lord of the Admiralty.
0:23:52 > 0:23:56The term, Prime Minister was a little bit insulting.
0:23:56 > 0:24:02I decided that we needed a First Minister in Wales.
0:24:02 > 0:24:07We'll have to leave it there. That's all for this evening.
0:24:07 > 0:24:12We will be back with CF99 at 10pm next week. Good evening.