0:00:19 > 0:00:21Good evening and welcome to CF99,
0:00:21 > 0:00:24live from the National Assembly in Cardiff Bay.
0:00:24 > 0:00:26On tonight's programme:
0:00:26 > 0:00:31Thousands and thousands of words and statistics but how much substance?
0:00:31 > 0:00:34The Welsh Government's records during the last year.
0:00:34 > 0:00:38It's very difficult to say how much they expect things to improve
0:00:38 > 0:00:43and also there's no way of measuring how things have improved, if at all.
0:00:43 > 0:00:46The Lords support gay marriage,
0:00:46 > 0:00:49but will the measure have an easy passage from now on?
0:00:49 > 0:00:53And who's to blame for the latest scandal to to with lobbying?
0:00:53 > 0:00:58These lobbyists who have been involved in the latest scandal,
0:00:58 > 0:01:02they weren't lobbyists, they were fake companies which had been set up by the media.
0:01:02 > 0:01:05This problem isn't about the lobbyists themselves,
0:01:05 > 0:01:08the problem is the politicians who have taken the bait and the money.
0:01:08 > 0:01:12And joining us tonight is Lord Dafydd Elis-Thomas from Plaid Cymru,
0:01:12 > 0:01:15the political commentator, Daran Hill,
0:01:15 > 0:01:17and in Bangor, we have the journalist and the president
0:01:17 > 0:01:20of the Dyfodol i'r Iaith organisation, Bethan Jones Parry.
0:01:20 > 0:01:25The Welsh Government has published an annual report.
0:01:25 > 0:01:29Plenty of figures and plenty to be proud of, according to Carwyn Jones.
0:01:29 > 0:01:32However, the opposition parties say there isn't much substance.
0:01:32 > 0:01:36But what about normal voters? Is all this information useful?
0:01:36 > 0:01:39And what does it say about the future of Carwyn Jones' administration?
0:01:39 > 0:01:44Tomos Livingstone has had a look under the bonnet.
0:01:54 > 0:01:57You have to keep an eye on every machine.
0:01:57 > 0:02:02Every year, the First Minister's team publishes a detailed report
0:02:02 > 0:02:06on every aspect of the Government's work.
0:02:06 > 0:02:11The aim is to give the public a full picture of the journey so far
0:02:11 > 0:02:13and what to expect next.
0:02:13 > 0:02:16I think it's important that we get the message out.
0:02:16 > 0:02:19and show what devolution means
0:02:19 > 0:02:25and what Wales and this Government can do to help Welsh people
0:02:25 > 0:02:28face the challenge we face
0:02:28 > 0:02:34because we know that the times ahead could be difficult.
0:02:34 > 0:02:37But is there a point to all this measuring and evaluating?
0:02:37 > 0:02:41The Welsh Government's latest annual report looks at everything
0:02:41 > 0:02:43from the numbers that use the trains
0:02:43 > 0:02:45to the expenditure on fishing policy.
0:02:45 > 0:02:48There are 400 milestones in all.
0:02:48 > 0:02:53But is it possible to have too much data leaving everyone none the wiser
0:02:53 > 0:02:57about the state of the car or how to reach the journey's destination?
0:02:57 > 0:03:00We've been going through this process now for two years.
0:03:00 > 0:03:03All the opposition parties said at the time
0:03:03 > 0:03:07that there were no targets to measure success
0:03:07 > 0:03:09and that is obvious in this document.
0:03:09 > 0:03:14They say things are improving but it's difficult to see
0:03:14 > 0:03:17how much they expect things to improve
0:03:17 > 0:03:22and also, there's no way of measuring how things have improved, if at all.
0:03:22 > 0:03:25But does the annual report have another purpose?
0:03:25 > 0:03:28According to one with experience of the Welsh Government,
0:03:28 > 0:03:31the vast amounts of data keeps the pressure on those
0:03:31 > 0:03:34who have to implement the policies.
0:03:34 > 0:03:37It disciplines what the government does
0:03:37 > 0:03:40and that includes the ministers and the civil servants, of course.
0:03:40 > 0:03:44There is a lesson here for the other parties.
0:03:44 > 0:03:47And not everything runs smoothly. Not by a long way.
0:03:47 > 0:03:51The report hardly mentions two of the government's main problems.
0:03:51 > 0:03:55The failure to reach targets in the health service
0:03:55 > 0:03:57and the admission that educational standards
0:03:57 > 0:04:00won't improve for some time.
0:04:00 > 0:04:02We are facing a challenge with education,
0:04:02 > 0:04:04we are facing a challenge with health.
0:04:04 > 0:04:08The report is very open about that.
0:04:08 > 0:04:12But it shows that policies like Flying Start
0:04:12 > 0:04:17and Communities First work within our communities
0:04:17 > 0:04:19and help our poorest people.
0:04:19 > 0:04:23Carwyn Jones is steering the car on his own at the moment.
0:04:23 > 0:04:26The Labour Party doesn't have a clear majority.
0:04:26 > 0:04:29According to some, that weakens the Government.
0:04:29 > 0:04:33Would sharing the driving with one of the other parties,
0:04:33 > 0:04:37as has happened in the past, ease the burden?
0:04:37 > 0:04:40That majority needs to be more than one or two
0:04:40 > 0:04:43in order to govern Wales effectively.
0:04:43 > 0:04:47Ministers are tied to this place instead of being able to go out
0:04:47 > 0:04:50and complete their work effectively.
0:04:50 > 0:04:54The same is true about anything that is controversial in this place.
0:04:54 > 0:04:56Very long discussions with the opposition parties
0:04:56 > 0:05:00have to take place in order to ensure that happens.
0:05:00 > 0:05:03If there was a coalition, these things could be completed
0:05:03 > 0:05:05more quickly and more effectively.
0:05:05 > 0:05:10Carwyn Jones says he's proud of what's been accomplished so far.
0:05:10 > 0:05:13He acknowledges that the economic situation is difficult
0:05:13 > 0:05:15and that there's more to do.
0:05:15 > 0:05:17There's plenty of data available
0:05:17 > 0:05:19to evaluate the Government's performance.
0:05:19 > 0:05:21So perhaps the next question is,
0:05:21 > 0:05:25is there enough left in the tank to enable the First Minister
0:05:25 > 0:05:28to accomplish more before the next election?
0:05:30 > 0:05:32Tomos Livingstone doing his part time job.
0:05:32 > 0:05:36Bethan, is there any point having these annual reports?
0:05:36 > 0:05:39Several bodies publish them
0:05:39 > 0:05:44but are they really just an exercise in public relations?
0:05:44 > 0:05:47I think that's what they are, to be honest.
0:05:47 > 0:05:51In the end, I think it's people's perceptions that are important.
0:05:51 > 0:05:55I think what needs to be looked at
0:05:55 > 0:05:58is strengthening the communication side
0:05:58 > 0:06:03about the importance of these reports, if there is an importance.
0:06:03 > 0:06:08If you don't do that, people's response will depend on their personal perceptions
0:06:08 > 0:06:13and not on any statistics in any document.
0:06:13 > 0:06:19One of my favourite quotes is by a journalist and academic called David Randall.
0:06:19 > 0:06:21He says if you have a story,
0:06:21 > 0:06:24you have to stop talking to yourself in the dark.
0:06:24 > 0:06:29As the Assembly and the Welsh Government have said themselves,
0:06:29 > 0:06:31under the leadership of Rosemary Butler,
0:06:31 > 0:06:35the way you tell the story has to be strengthened
0:06:35 > 0:06:39or this report will become even less important than it is at the moment.
0:06:39 > 0:06:44Daran, in fairness, there's a lot of useful data in this document.
0:06:44 > 0:06:46It will be useful to us and to you.
0:06:46 > 0:06:52But does a report like this mean anything to voters?
0:06:52 > 0:06:57It means something to the voters if other politicians interpret it to them.
0:06:57 > 0:06:59It's impossible for voters
0:06:59 > 0:07:04to make any sense of 400 different statistics.
0:07:04 > 0:07:07It's the job of the opposition parties to pick out a few things
0:07:07 > 0:07:10and create the narrative from that.
0:07:10 > 0:07:14It's the Government's job to pick out a few things, politically,
0:07:14 > 0:07:17and create a narrative from that.
0:07:17 > 0:07:19Part of the problem is that, on the whole,
0:07:19 > 0:07:24the Government has decided not to set specific targets at the beginning.
0:07:24 > 0:07:28So there's no way of telling whether they have succeeded or failed.
0:07:28 > 0:07:33Any government which refuses to set targets is doing a very wise thing.
0:07:33 > 0:07:37It's much better to measure from year to year
0:07:37 > 0:07:41and not hold up some political totem that can fail.
0:07:41 > 0:07:44After five years, the people of Wales will have the opportunity
0:07:44 > 0:07:49to see which of these 400 statistics have improved
0:07:49 > 0:07:51without any kind of target.
0:07:51 > 0:07:56A target is not a useful political tool for any government.
0:07:56 > 0:07:59Should there be targets?
0:07:59 > 0:08:03Yes, in my opinion. Especially in the areas I follow
0:08:03 > 0:08:05and the areas in which I try to influence the Government.
0:08:05 > 0:08:09Particularly the environment, sustainable development and energy.
0:08:09 > 0:08:13I think we have to move back to a situation where we have targets.
0:08:13 > 0:08:16There's been a failure throughout the UK and the EU
0:08:16 > 0:08:20and especially in Wales, compared to Scotland, to reach targets,
0:08:20 > 0:08:26the kind of decarbonisation we have to do on the grid to deal with climate change.
0:08:26 > 0:08:29So I welcome data of this kind as the chair of a committee
0:08:29 > 0:08:33because it gives us a basis to investigate further
0:08:33 > 0:08:36and show the true performance.
0:08:36 > 0:08:38Nobody can hide then.
0:08:38 > 0:08:42Bethan Jones Parry, what do you make of the point Rhodri Glyn Thomas was making there,
0:08:42 > 0:08:47that the Government's accomplishments are restricted
0:08:47 > 0:08:53because of the nature of the majority or the lack of majority?
0:08:53 > 0:08:59Is that what's responsible for a Government which is managerial in a way?
0:08:59 > 0:09:02One that talks about the small things it has done
0:09:02 > 0:09:05but has not introduced a huge vision.
0:09:05 > 0:09:08I think that's a good point.
0:09:08 > 0:09:10After all, why are you doing this?
0:09:10 > 0:09:17Dafydd was talking there about the way targets can drive the agenda.
0:09:17 > 0:09:23Daran said earlier about the fact that the opposition parties
0:09:23 > 0:09:25can create a narrative.
0:09:25 > 0:09:30But that is all pretty introverted if this narrative
0:09:30 > 0:09:36and the information about the existence of targets and the way they are implemented
0:09:36 > 0:09:40are communicated effectively to the voters.
0:09:40 > 0:09:45I do feel... I'm repeating myself.
0:09:45 > 0:09:48But I do feel that is where the weakness is.
0:09:48 > 0:09:52I'm also aware that the Institute of Welsh Affairs
0:09:52 > 0:09:57has said that the Government is succeeding politically
0:09:57 > 0:09:59but that there's more to do.
0:10:02 > 0:10:06What is the point of politics if it doesn't stretch out to the voters?
0:10:06 > 0:10:09That is where the weakness is at the moment.
0:10:09 > 0:10:14And possibly, because the Government doesn't have a majority,
0:10:14 > 0:10:16or because it is not in a coalition,
0:10:16 > 0:10:19it doesn't allow it to work as effectively as maybe it could.
0:10:19 > 0:10:21If that's the case, it is a weakness.
0:10:21 > 0:10:25But it's about communication and stretching out to the voters.
0:10:25 > 0:10:28I can assure you, in Pencaenewydd the publication of this report,
0:10:28 > 0:10:32despite the fact it's in the Daily Post, is not a big talking point.
0:10:32 > 0:10:38It will be forgotten by the time the voters can exercise their right
0:10:38 > 0:10:41to keep the Government or not
0:10:41 > 0:10:45and hold it accountable for what it has done.
0:10:45 > 0:10:51I think we're being very unfair now if we're saying that this Government
0:10:51 > 0:10:53hasn't done big things.
0:10:53 > 0:10:58In the area of the environment, we have created, during the last few months,
0:10:58 > 0:11:01the most influential public body
0:11:01 > 0:11:06to do with the environment and the countryside and everything like that in Wales.
0:11:06 > 0:11:11Natural Resources Wales has at last combined the Forestry Commission,
0:11:11 > 0:11:14the Environment Agency and the Countryside Council.
0:11:14 > 0:11:17Could the Government have done more
0:11:17 > 0:11:19if there was a coalition and a majority?
0:11:19 > 0:11:24- No. It had cross-party support... - But what about in other areas?
0:11:26 > 0:11:28No, I think that is an excuse.
0:11:28 > 0:11:35The truth is that my party performed badly
0:11:35 > 0:11:37at the last Assembly election.
0:11:37 > 0:11:40Otherwise, we would have been in government.
0:11:40 > 0:11:43We can't turn around now and say, "Please can we have a coalition?"
0:11:43 > 0:11:46Because we failed to perform well enough.
0:11:46 > 0:11:50I think we all have a responsibility in politics to perform at our best
0:11:50 > 0:11:53in order to govern a country properly.
0:11:53 > 0:11:57Turning around and saying we enjoy being in opposition, for me,
0:11:57 > 0:11:58is no kind of politics.
0:11:58 > 0:12:00Thank you. We have to move on.
0:12:00 > 0:12:03In Westminster, the plans to change the law
0:12:03 > 0:12:07so that gay couples can get married is flying through Parliament.
0:12:07 > 0:12:11Last night, the Lords voted with a clear majority in favour
0:12:11 > 0:12:14of allowing the measure to move forward to the next step.
0:12:14 > 0:12:20Dafydd was among them and warned the Lords against rejecting the policy.
0:12:21 > 0:12:24If this happens, I can promise you my Lords
0:12:24 > 0:12:27that this issue will not go away.
0:12:27 > 0:12:33We will continue to campaign with Stonewall Cymru and gay Christians
0:12:33 > 0:12:38and others for the law of marriage to be devolved
0:12:38 > 0:12:42in Wales, as it is in Scotland.
0:12:42 > 0:12:46I appeal therefore to this House for all these reasons
0:12:46 > 0:12:49and for those of you even who oppose the principle of this legislation
0:12:49 > 0:12:54to allow us who want to debate it to debate it further.
0:12:54 > 0:12:57Because that debate will not go away
0:12:57 > 0:13:03until the equal relationship enjoyed by my son and my son-in-law
0:13:03 > 0:13:06will be free for everyone.
0:13:07 > 0:13:12Dafydd, we discussed this on Sunday morning on Radio Wales before the vote.
0:13:12 > 0:13:16The feeling was that it could have been close, but it wasn't.
0:13:16 > 0:13:19Were you surprised about that?
0:13:19 > 0:13:25I was in the end but the Holy Sprit was on our side, thank heavens.
0:13:25 > 0:13:28Things changed during the two days.
0:13:28 > 0:13:34Fair play, the Government organisers, the Government whips,
0:13:34 > 0:13:40were very effective in ensuring that the debate developed throughout the two days.
0:13:40 > 0:13:46I have to pay tribute to the people who are conservative with regard to economic policy,
0:13:46 > 0:13:50but who are liberal with regard to social policy,
0:13:50 > 0:13:53people like Norman Fowler within the Conservative Party,
0:13:53 > 0:13:56who spoke so clearly.
0:13:56 > 0:14:01The reactive elements, as I call then, were then isolated.
0:14:01 > 0:14:08What's the point of talking about a second House to reform legislation
0:14:08 > 0:14:12if there's no opportunity to discuss the legislation in order to reform it?
0:14:12 > 0:14:16I think that argument won the day.
0:14:16 > 0:14:18Do you think this was the last big battle
0:14:18 > 0:14:21or are there further battles to come?
0:14:21 > 0:14:26I don't see how any other arguments with regard to principle can now be raised
0:14:26 > 0:14:27as the bill goes through.
0:14:27 > 0:14:31We will start on the work a week on Monday and a week on Wednesday.
0:14:31 > 0:14:35I hope we'll be finished in three weeks to a month
0:14:35 > 0:14:42and that it goes through and becomes a law, certainly by the Autumn.
0:14:42 > 0:14:47Daran, it does surprise me a little that it's gone through both Houses
0:14:47 > 0:14:50with such significant majorities.
0:14:50 > 0:14:54Are the campaigners within Westminster responsible for that?
0:14:54 > 0:14:58Or the campaigners outside? Or a combination of both?
0:14:58 > 0:15:03I think the campaigners outside have battled clever campaigns
0:15:03 > 0:15:06and ones that will be remembered for years to come.
0:15:07 > 0:15:12But the speeches that have been made by those in favour have been
0:15:12 > 0:15:16thoughtful and have changed the minds of those people sat
0:15:16 > 0:15:17next to them.
0:15:17 > 0:15:21I think that was true last night at the House of Lords.
0:15:21 > 0:15:24I don't understand the politics of the House of Lords, Dafydd is
0:15:24 > 0:15:29an expert. But to me is like Anglesey politics,
0:15:29 > 0:15:34it doesn't fit in with any other political pattern that I understand.
0:15:34 > 0:15:36Fair play.
0:15:36 > 0:15:40But like choosing a new Pope, once you see the smoke rising, there is
0:15:40 > 0:15:46an understanding and I think that's what happened last night.
0:15:46 > 0:15:47And it was interesting,
0:15:47 > 0:15:52Bethan, I listened to a lot of the debate on Commons Live
0:15:52 > 0:15:57and I got the feeling that maybe a lot of those who
0:15:57 > 0:16:02were against had damaged their cause, in that the language and the
0:16:02 > 0:16:06way that things were said somehow
0:16:06 > 0:16:10don't relate to this century.
0:16:10 > 0:16:12Yes, certainly.
0:16:12 > 0:16:15I think that those
0:16:15 > 0:16:19who spoke against showed their age...
0:16:19 > 0:16:22and showed their background.
0:16:22 > 0:16:27And it doesn't fit with modern society, certainly.
0:16:27 > 0:16:32I was shocked when I found myself appreciating what
0:16:32 > 0:16:37Quentin Letts was writing in the Daily Mail.
0:16:37 > 0:16:44I thought, "Crikey, if I agree with him then things must have moved on."
0:16:44 > 0:16:49I don't think there are factions in the House of Lords who
0:16:49 > 0:16:53reflect society as it is.
0:16:53 > 0:16:57Their finger is certainly not on the pulse.
0:16:57 > 0:17:00Maybe this vote showed that they have their finger on the pulse
0:17:00 > 0:17:03a little more than people thought.
0:17:03 > 0:17:09I was talking about those who opposed, that there was a
0:17:09 > 0:17:14significant group of them. That has attracted a lot of attention.
0:17:14 > 0:17:17I think Daran is right.
0:17:17 > 0:17:22Strong campaigns have taken place arguing against allowing
0:17:22 > 0:17:24same-sex marriages.
0:17:24 > 0:17:26But at the end of the day, yes,
0:17:26 > 0:17:30maybe you are right in what you are saying, maybe you have a point.
0:17:30 > 0:17:33But I also think that there is a
0:17:33 > 0:17:37very vocal group that do not
0:17:37 > 0:17:41quite understand modern society.
0:17:41 > 0:17:44Thank you for now.
0:17:44 > 0:17:49Over the years, the image of lobbying and lobbyists hasn't been the best.
0:17:49 > 0:17:53Allegations emerged over the weekend that three members of the Lords
0:17:53 > 0:17:58and one MP were prepared to carry out parliamentary work for money.
0:17:58 > 0:18:00The Assembly's Standards Committee is already
0:18:00 > 0:18:04looking at the process of lobbying in the Bay.
0:18:04 > 0:18:07And in Westminster, the Government is promising to act.
0:18:07 > 0:18:10Well, we asked Lleu Williams of Public Affairs Cymru,
0:18:10 > 0:18:16who represent those working in public relations, for his opinion.
0:18:22 > 0:18:25The lobbying process stretches back centuries,
0:18:25 > 0:18:31where voters were turn up at the House of Commons to lobby
0:18:31 > 0:18:35and raise a matter that they felt was important with their MP.
0:18:36 > 0:18:42These days, the lobbying process is the process of influencing
0:18:42 > 0:18:46government policy and other bodies in order to ensure
0:18:46 > 0:18:50that your opinion and what you represent is heard.
0:18:50 > 0:18:53These lobbyists involved in the recent scandals -
0:18:53 > 0:18:58they were not lobbyists. The press set up fake companies.
0:18:58 > 0:19:01And this problem is not with the lobbyists themselves
0:19:01 > 0:19:04but with the politicians who have taken money.
0:19:05 > 0:19:08There hasn't been a scandal in Wales.
0:19:08 > 0:19:13The process in Wales is open and transparent and it
0:19:13 > 0:19:18ensures that we have lobbyists working within a strong system.
0:19:20 > 0:19:25It's important that the image of lobbying is dealt with.
0:19:25 > 0:19:28We need to ensure that the public is confident that the system
0:19:28 > 0:19:32and process we have is transparent and open.
0:19:32 > 0:19:37There has been talk of creating a register in Westminster.
0:19:37 > 0:19:40If that is the right way ahead, then we must wait and see,
0:19:40 > 0:19:42but what is important is that everyone has access to the
0:19:42 > 0:19:45democratic process, including charities.
0:19:45 > 0:19:48But we need to ensure that they can be a part of that process,
0:19:48 > 0:19:51they are not pushed out of the process.
0:19:51 > 0:19:55And that it is not just a process that keeps people in place,
0:19:55 > 0:19:58but also tackles those working in the dark.
0:19:58 > 0:20:03Lleu Williams. Daran, you have lobbied during your time.
0:20:03 > 0:20:07Are you as confident as Lleu that the systems that
0:20:07 > 0:20:12exist in the Assembly ensure that this place is free of scandal.
0:20:12 > 0:20:15Well, no-one has found a scandal
0:20:15 > 0:20:19and plenty of people have been looking over the years.
0:20:19 > 0:20:24And I think that gives some kind of an answer.
0:20:24 > 0:20:28I would say that this problem is restricted to certain places
0:20:28 > 0:20:31and certain people.
0:20:31 > 0:20:34I don't think it should affect the reputations of politicians,
0:20:34 > 0:20:38lobbyists, or even the journalists who have been
0:20:38 > 0:20:41posing as lobbyists, as part of this.
0:20:41 > 0:20:45Saying that, as a lobbyist,
0:20:45 > 0:20:48I am content with having some kind of a register.
0:20:48 > 0:20:53I am content with people knowing who we as lobbyists are lobbying.
0:20:53 > 0:20:57But people who have been elected into public
0:20:57 > 0:21:01roles are accountable at the end of the day.
0:21:01 > 0:21:06We are covered by legislation regarding bribes and so on.
0:21:06 > 0:21:09But the people who have been elected are accountable.
0:21:09 > 0:21:11If any rules need to be changed,
0:21:11 > 0:21:14then those are the rules that must be changed.
0:21:14 > 0:21:21In terms of Cardiff Bay, Dafydd, do we need lobbyists at all in reality?
0:21:21 > 0:21:26What I don't quite understand is it is easy enough for anyone
0:21:26 > 0:21:29in Wales, pretty much, to phone up and organise to have a cuppa
0:21:29 > 0:21:33with an Assembly Member or a Minister.
0:21:33 > 0:21:36- This place is open to the public and bodies anyway.- Yes, hopefully.
0:21:36 > 0:21:40But saying that, there is a specific role for people,
0:21:40 > 0:21:42especially from campaign groups,
0:21:42 > 0:21:46and I deal a lot with businesses regarding the environment
0:21:46 > 0:21:49and campaign groups of all kinds,
0:21:49 > 0:21:54and getting to speak with someone who represents an opinion
0:21:54 > 0:22:00and is professional, like Daran, in his case and the people who
0:22:00 > 0:22:05work for him, that strengthens the democratic process.
0:22:05 > 0:22:08What I don't want to see happening
0:22:08 > 0:22:12and it has not happened here is the creation of a register
0:22:12 > 0:22:16of lobbyists that would give certain groups of citizens a higher
0:22:16 > 0:22:19status than others, answering your earlier point.
0:22:19 > 0:22:22That they could more or less use it to say,
0:22:22 > 0:22:24"We are the official moderators."
0:22:24 > 0:22:28Yes, and there were talks regarding that.
0:22:28 > 0:22:31And I don't think we should be following Westminster,
0:22:31 > 0:22:38but I do believe that politicians who receive bribes
0:22:38 > 0:22:44or are paid in addition to their salary,
0:22:44 > 0:22:50or costs in terms of some others, that they are open to prosecution.
0:22:50 > 0:22:52- I don't think it's acceptable at all.- I agree.
0:22:52 > 0:22:57Bethan Jones Parry, there were journalists from the BBC and the
0:22:57 > 0:23:04Sunday Times in this case, and the Telegraph - what about their actions?
0:23:04 > 0:23:06Are they that pure?
0:23:06 > 0:23:12Or do they in reality know that they will catch wrongdoers in any
0:23:12 > 0:23:15group of men and women?
0:23:15 > 0:23:16There are always those people.
0:23:16 > 0:23:21Well, there is nothing wrong with that.
0:23:21 > 0:23:26Journalists always fish for stories.
0:23:26 > 0:23:30I'm quite pleased to see the BBC, the Telegraph
0:23:30 > 0:23:34and the Sunday Times acting as the fourth state.
0:23:34 > 0:23:40But if I can quickly return to the previous point
0:23:40 > 0:23:43and say that maybe it is easy to pop in for a cuppa,
0:23:43 > 0:23:47but you want people that know the corridors beyond that
0:23:47 > 0:23:50and that is why we see the importance of lobbying
0:23:50 > 0:23:55on behalf of the Welsh language, especially
0:23:55 > 0:23:57when it was barely mentioned in the Government report.
0:23:57 > 0:24:00Thank you very much and that's it for this week.
0:24:00 > 0:24:04We're back next week at the later time of 10.30pm. Join us then.
0:24:04 > 0:24:06Until then, good night.