0:00:20 > 0:00:22Good evening and welcome to CF99,
0:00:22 > 0:00:25the postcode of the Assembly here in Cardiff Bay.
0:00:25 > 0:00:28On tonight's programme -
0:00:28 > 0:00:31Water, wind and sometimes sun, the obstructions to release
0:00:31 > 0:00:34our natural resources.
0:00:34 > 0:00:39There are companies and individuals telling us
0:00:39 > 0:00:44that they feel that Wales isn't moving fast enough.
0:00:44 > 0:00:47And is avoiding tax immoral?
0:00:47 > 0:00:52David Cameron is calling on the G8 countries to act.
0:00:52 > 0:00:57I am joined by Carol Bell, an expert on the energy industry,
0:00:57 > 0:01:02Luned Jones from Oxfam Wales and the Labour MP for Anglesey, Albert Owen.
0:01:02 > 0:01:07Welcome to you. Carwyn Jones has said that this is Wales' energy decade.
0:01:07 > 0:01:11He thinks there is great potential here in Wales.
0:01:11 > 0:01:14He says that there is potential to increase energy supply here
0:01:14 > 0:01:18without damaging the environment. But what is the reality?
0:01:18 > 0:01:23Over the last week, protests over windfarms and doubts
0:01:23 > 0:01:27over the Severn windfarm project has shown that there is a long way to go
0:01:27 > 0:01:31before that dream can be realised.
0:01:46 > 0:01:50The Welsh economy has always been driven by its natural resources.
0:01:50 > 0:01:53Mining the land and treating the land.
0:01:53 > 0:01:57Aberdulais' waterfalls have been producing power since 1584
0:01:57 > 0:02:03for some of the largest industries in Wales.
0:02:05 > 0:02:08At one time,
0:02:08 > 0:02:11most of the industrialisation of the world was here in Wales.
0:02:11 > 0:02:15Wales had a number of large ports at that time.
0:02:15 > 0:02:18Wales and energy isn't anything new really.
0:02:18 > 0:02:21What has happened is that the emphasis is on carbon,
0:02:21 > 0:02:25prices are going up and we're struggling to find the elements.
0:02:25 > 0:02:26We have to look at what is Wales
0:02:26 > 0:02:29and its relationship with energy in the future.
0:02:29 > 0:02:32This is a very different problem.
0:02:32 > 0:02:36But the Welsh Government sees the challenges of the energy industry
0:02:36 > 0:02:39as a chance than a problem because many believe that if Wales
0:02:39 > 0:02:42took advantage of its natural resources,
0:02:42 > 0:02:45then it could transform the economy.
0:02:45 > 0:02:49But the question is are we making the most of the chances available?
0:02:49 > 0:02:51No, we are not.
0:02:51 > 0:02:56If you read the reports that we have produced as a committee
0:02:56 > 0:03:00especially in the field of renewable energy and planning policies,
0:03:00 > 0:03:08there are many companies that feel that Wales isn't moving fast enough
0:03:08 > 0:03:16to get permission to invest in energy.
0:03:16 > 0:03:20At present, many large renewable energy projects hang in the balance.
0:03:20 > 0:03:24They have their supporters but some fiercely oppose.
0:03:24 > 0:03:29This week, a project worth billions of pounds to build a barrage
0:03:29 > 0:03:32across the Severn, was criticised by a parliamentary committee.
0:03:32 > 0:03:36Last week, there were even further protests against wind turbines.
0:03:36 > 0:03:40There are other ways that won't destroy the lives of people
0:03:40 > 0:03:42living in the coutryside.
0:03:42 > 0:03:46The development of a new power station on Angelsey
0:03:46 > 0:03:48is far from being completed.
0:03:48 > 0:03:51It's very hard to move forward with some of these schemes
0:03:51 > 0:03:54because developers aren't too clear
0:03:54 > 0:04:02as to where they can invest money to develop it. This is a problem.
0:04:02 > 0:04:06The Government of Wales says they are working to develop the sector.
0:04:06 > 0:04:09The First Minister chaired the first meeting
0:04:09 > 0:04:13of the Welsh Energy Strategy Group this week.
0:04:13 > 0:04:17Two years ago, Carwyn Jones said that he wanted to see
0:04:17 > 0:04:20the green sector flourish in the next ten years.
0:04:20 > 0:04:24But for some, there is a gap between the saying and the doing.
0:04:24 > 0:04:27We have the expertise here in Wales.
0:04:27 > 0:04:29If I work in England or Scotland,
0:04:29 > 0:04:33it's often that people have been trained in Wales.
0:04:33 > 0:04:36So, the people here need to know that the resources
0:04:36 > 0:04:42are being used properly.
0:04:42 > 0:04:48It is moving in the right direction but it will take time.
0:04:48 > 0:04:50Perhaps that the potential is clear
0:04:50 > 0:04:54but there are a number of obstacles to make the Government's dream
0:04:54 > 0:04:59of releasing the potential and boost the economy.
0:04:59 > 0:05:02Albert Owen,
0:05:02 > 0:05:07we have all heard that Anglesey is considered an energy island.
0:05:07 > 0:05:11There is a new scheme now in conjunction
0:05:11 > 0:05:15with Aberystwyth and Bangor universities.
0:05:15 > 0:05:19We have the nuclear power reactor, but when will people see jobs?
0:05:19 > 0:05:23The jobs were created for the nuclear power station,
0:05:23 > 0:05:26but the situation moves slowly.
0:05:26 > 0:05:29There is a bill going through the Commons at the moment.
0:05:29 > 0:05:33We need to put the framework in place to make sure people
0:05:33 > 0:05:36have the opportunities to invest.
0:05:36 > 0:05:39If we do not do this,
0:05:39 > 0:05:43then we'll have to bring in energy from other places.
0:05:43 > 0:05:46We have been moving forward quickly on wind energy.
0:05:46 > 0:05:49But people oppose wind turbines on the land.
0:05:49 > 0:05:55We need to start developing more out on the sea.
0:05:55 > 0:06:01There are opportunities, and there will be good jobs available.
0:06:01 > 0:06:07We have to make sure we have the right schemes in place.
0:06:07 > 0:06:12Things need to be in place in Holyhead so that this can continue.
0:06:12 > 0:06:15We can then create jobs and then link up with the universities
0:06:15 > 0:06:19to make sure we have the right skills in place.
0:06:19 > 0:06:22We have started on that work.
0:06:22 > 0:06:25Local Government seems to be involved as well.
0:06:25 > 0:06:30We need to cooperate across all levels to make sure
0:06:30 > 0:06:37we have what we need in order to have a low carbon-emission economy.
0:06:37 > 0:06:40Carol Bell, you travel the world with your work,
0:06:40 > 0:06:45how does Government in Britain at all levels compare with other places?
0:06:45 > 0:06:48Without a clear direction,
0:06:48 > 0:06:53we seem to have opted for wind turbines
0:06:53 > 0:06:59without having a clear scheme on it.
0:06:59 > 0:07:06Unfortunately, that's an expensive way.
0:07:06 > 0:07:09We shouldn't be creating energy in this way as it's expensive.
0:07:09 > 0:07:13As customers, we could expect to pay more for our energy
0:07:13 > 0:07:16and be less competitive than others.
0:07:16 > 0:07:20What should we be doing?
0:07:20 > 0:07:24It's difficult to bring up one option,
0:07:24 > 0:07:27but any renewable energy from that depends on subsidies
0:07:27 > 0:07:31will mean that we are just putting money in the pockets
0:07:31 > 0:07:33of those behind the schemes.
0:07:33 > 0:07:34That depends on having a subsidy
0:07:34 > 0:07:39in the sense that it has a guaranteed price.
0:07:39 > 0:07:42Yes, but that's completely different.
0:07:42 > 0:07:48The technology has been proven when it comes to other things.
0:07:48 > 0:07:53It's terrible that we have not started early enough
0:07:53 > 0:07:58when it comes to investing in nuclear power.
0:07:58 > 0:08:03We have to rely on gas and on coal as well, to some extent.
0:08:03 > 0:08:10This has to continue until nuclear power is stable.
0:08:10 > 0:08:15Luned, you are involved with those countries
0:08:15 > 0:08:21who may be paying most when it comes to climate change.
0:08:21 > 0:08:25We know that climate change affects the lives of millions
0:08:25 > 0:08:28of people around the world.
0:08:28 > 0:08:32It affects how they can grow crops and flooding and so on.
0:08:32 > 0:08:37We have a responsibility even as a small nation to ensure
0:08:37 > 0:08:40that we meet the carbon emission targets
0:08:40 > 0:08:43and cut down greenhouse gases.
0:08:43 > 0:08:49We need to look at upgrading our houses.
0:08:49 > 0:08:55They have to be much more fuel efficient.
0:08:56 > 0:09:00We have a lot of work to do.
0:09:00 > 0:09:05We also need to look at the other perspective of fuel poverty.
0:09:05 > 0:09:09We know that a number of Welsh homes are suffering from this.
0:09:09 > 0:09:12Research has been carried out which could mean that jobs
0:09:12 > 0:09:18could be created while we deal with these problems.
0:09:18 > 0:09:21Albert, can those types of jobs make up for those other jobs?
0:09:21 > 0:09:24A number of jobs have disappeared because of the cost.
0:09:24 > 0:09:29One example is the aluminium industry which has disappeared
0:09:29 > 0:09:31not only from Anglesey, but from Britain.
0:09:31 > 0:09:37But there are new technologies and we have to move forward.
0:09:37 > 0:09:41I agree we have concentrated too much on wind turbines on land,
0:09:41 > 0:09:47but many understand that we have to move into a low-carbon economy.
0:09:47 > 0:09:52We need to move on with the various options.
0:09:52 > 0:09:55We must have research and development as well.
0:09:55 > 0:09:57That is crucial.
0:09:57 > 0:10:02We can then create jobs which are of a high quality.
0:10:02 > 0:10:05The whole British economy has to move forward.
0:10:05 > 0:10:10There is a great potential to move forward with this idea.
0:10:10 > 0:10:14Seimens have moved from Germany to Britain
0:10:14 > 0:10:18because they see the potential of this.
0:10:18 > 0:10:22We have to co-operate with large companies
0:10:22 > 0:10:29but also get the infrastructure in place.
0:10:29 > 0:10:35Carole, you were responsible for the term "Ffracio" in Welsh.
0:10:36 > 0:10:38With two "f".
0:10:38 > 0:10:43Fracking is a controversial technology to get gas
0:10:43 > 0:10:45out from the ground.
0:10:45 > 0:10:50It has made a big difference in the United States.
0:10:50 > 0:10:55Can you see it coming over here?
0:10:55 > 0:11:00We do have potential here in Wales and in parts of England as well,
0:11:00 > 0:11:06but the problem is they have done a lot of this in America
0:11:06 > 0:11:12in areas which are sparsely populated, but in Britain,
0:11:12 > 0:11:19we all live on top of each other, and there isn't much room
0:11:19 > 0:11:23to talk all the noise and the problems when the hole is dug.
0:11:23 > 0:11:27You are going to have a lot of problems when the drilling takes place.
0:11:27 > 0:11:31It has had an effect already.
0:11:31 > 0:11:34The price of coal has decreased,
0:11:34 > 0:11:38and renewable energy appears to be much more expensive as a result.
0:11:38 > 0:11:40That's what has happened.
0:11:40 > 0:11:45What has happened with the price of gas falling
0:11:46 > 0:11:52to one fifth of what it was worth here in the UK,
0:11:53 > 0:11:59is that they've taken coal from the industry in America,
0:11:59 > 0:12:06and bringing it over to us.
0:12:06 > 0:12:14These low prices in America will affect us.
0:12:14 > 0:12:21We, as a small nation can't think that low prices won't affect us.
0:12:21 > 0:12:25Any government has to weigh up all these things -
0:12:25 > 0:12:28the long-term plans and the short-term plans as well.
0:12:33 > 0:12:37We can see that prices are increasing when it comes to energy,
0:12:37 > 0:12:40but we also see that income isn't going up to match it.
0:12:40 > 0:12:46People then see that the energy bills are becoming more expensive.
0:12:46 > 0:12:52It is pushing more people into fuel poverty.
0:12:52 > 0:12:58Where is the balance between the short-term -
0:12:58 > 0:13:04the pressure that customers are under and the long-term aspect?
0:13:04 > 0:13:08We have to invest in new technology now.
0:13:08 > 0:13:13If we do not do this and have a dash for gas as in the 70s,
0:13:13 > 0:13:19then we will have a situation returning as we have seen before.
0:13:19 > 0:13:26The commodity prices will increase. That is the big thing.
0:13:26 > 0:13:31We have to be very careful when we talk about making up the prices.
0:13:31 > 0:13:35Wales is an excellent country to do this.
0:13:35 > 0:13:39I'm glad that the Assembly has moved forward on this.
0:13:39 > 0:13:43They need to work with the British Government to make sure
0:13:43 > 0:13:48they have the right policies and plans in place to move forward.
0:13:48 > 0:13:52When it became clear that some large companies
0:13:52 > 0:13:55were paying little tax in Britain,
0:13:55 > 0:13:59a heated public debate kicked off about the fairness of the system.
0:13:59 > 0:14:03Next week, David Cameron will try to encourage G8 leaders
0:14:03 > 0:14:08to act at an international level to ensure companies contribute fairly.
0:14:08 > 0:14:14This is the debate according to one of tonight's guests.
0:14:26 > 0:14:30Taxes have become a political debate recently
0:14:30 > 0:14:34following attention given to Starbucks and Google.
0:14:34 > 0:14:38MPs are now discussing the morality of the practises
0:14:38 > 0:14:41that have been going on from some large companies.
0:14:43 > 0:14:48Leaders from the G8 countries will be meeting in Northern Ireland
0:14:48 > 0:14:50next week.
0:14:50 > 0:14:54David Cameron has said that tax avoidance
0:14:54 > 0:14:56will be central to those talks.
0:15:01 > 0:15:03It is a big issue in Britain,
0:15:03 > 0:15:07but it's even more important when it comes to poorer countries.
0:15:11 > 0:15:17We estimate that poorer countries are losing 160 billions a year
0:15:17 > 0:15:20through tax avoidance.
0:15:20 > 0:15:26The system is allowing the poorest countries to remain poor
0:15:26 > 0:15:29without doctors, teachers or nurses.
0:15:34 > 0:15:38The G8 needs to secure that every tax haven shares information
0:15:38 > 0:15:43and so that there is no place to hide.
0:15:43 > 0:15:49At last, tax evasion is at the top of the agenda.
0:15:49 > 0:15:55It's up to David Cameron to lead and act according to his word.
0:15:55 > 0:16:01- That was very good! But is it easier said than done?- For who?
0:16:01 > 0:16:08It isn't easy, but there are ways, clever ways,
0:16:08 > 0:16:15where the large companies can get advice on how to avoid paying tax.
0:16:15 > 0:16:20We need to act.
0:16:20 > 0:16:24The world is in agreement that something has to be done
0:16:24 > 0:16:29to ensure that it is a level playing field for everyone.
0:16:29 > 0:16:33There is no way of carrying on with this process.
0:16:33 > 0:16:39But you can't do that without a global tax set in Government?
0:16:39 > 0:16:45The talks next week will see
0:16:45 > 0:16:49the richest world leaders around the same table.
0:16:49 > 0:16:53They need to show goodwill to try and solve this problem.
0:16:53 > 0:16:57There are people in this country suffering as a result.
0:16:57 > 0:17:00We're losing money from our public purse.
0:17:00 > 0:17:06We don't have the problems people have in the poorest countries.
0:17:06 > 0:17:10I think what's worrying is that about a year ago,
0:17:10 > 0:17:15we didn't have any idea that these large companies were doing this.
0:17:15 > 0:17:20We have to be careful about words.
0:17:20 > 0:17:27They are using legal systems that were in place in order to avoid tax.
0:17:27 > 0:17:32Well, clever or sly.
0:17:32 > 0:17:38- But if it is there, as a business person.- They were using them!
0:17:38 > 0:17:43- It isn't just a question of morality.- They are paying less tax!
0:17:43 > 0:17:49I believe some of the leaders are in agreement
0:17:49 > 0:17:54that they'll have to do what needs to be done.
0:17:54 > 0:17:58It's normal that people are angry.
0:17:58 > 0:18:03We've heard about these different companies,
0:18:03 > 0:18:06but in truth, isn't it their responsibility
0:18:06 > 0:18:11of a manager to do what he can do?
0:18:11 > 0:18:16As long as it is within the law.
0:18:16 > 0:18:22What we have seen here is that the business world is global
0:18:22 > 0:18:29and the tax system has not followed in the same way.
0:18:29 > 0:18:34Nobody could have seen this.
0:18:34 > 0:18:38Looking back at my own career, I would not have thought
0:18:38 > 0:18:42that things would have developed to such a global scale
0:18:42 > 0:18:47as they have done.
0:18:47 > 0:18:50To think about coffee shops which are global
0:18:50 > 0:18:54and can use these rules legally, I wouldn't have predicted this.
0:18:54 > 0:18:59David Cameron can make a difference here next week.
0:18:59 > 0:19:02They need to get the relevant authorities to talk with the bodies
0:19:02 > 0:19:09in other countries in order to make sure that everything is transparent.
0:19:09 > 0:19:17We need to know what the profits are and where the taxes are paid.
0:19:17 > 0:19:24That will be a big help. But think of Europe.
0:19:24 > 0:19:31There was a great opportunity when the European countries
0:19:31 > 0:19:37came together to sort out the taxes, but that was a failure.
0:19:40 > 0:19:47Once more, it is almost inevitable that countries will try to get
0:19:47 > 0:19:52a competitive advantage by cutting corporate tax.
0:19:55 > 0:19:59Ireland is almost boasting that its taxes are so low.
0:19:59 > 0:20:04Britain wants a part of that.
0:20:04 > 0:20:09But Vodafone isn't paying corporation tax at all,
0:20:09 > 0:20:13and they are competing against British companies which are paying.
0:20:13 > 0:20:17Starbucks have cafes on the high street in Britain,
0:20:17 > 0:20:21and they are competing against home-grown businesses
0:20:21 > 0:20:25which have to pay tax here.
0:20:25 > 0:20:29I think we have to tackle this with leaders of the G8.
0:20:29 > 0:20:36But it is also up to people like us to choose where we buy our products.
0:20:36 > 0:20:42That is a way we can protest against these companies.
0:20:42 > 0:20:47We have to draw attention to the fact that some companies
0:20:47 > 0:20:49aren't paying corporation tax.
0:20:49 > 0:20:52We could buy from British companies who have to pay
0:20:52 > 0:20:55these corporation taxes.
0:20:55 > 0:21:02It is important that David Cameron leads on this issue.
0:21:02 > 0:21:08Blair and Brown highlighted the problems in Africa
0:21:08 > 0:21:13when we had summits here in the past.
0:21:13 > 0:21:16This is a chance for David Cameron
0:21:16 > 0:21:20to get his voice heard internationally.
0:21:20 > 0:21:22We have to do this as MPs here in Britain
0:21:22 > 0:21:28It is not enough just to tackle this on a British level.
0:21:28 > 0:21:31It has to be done globally.
0:21:31 > 0:21:38We have seen examples today of Google investing a lot of money
0:21:38 > 0:21:43on tackling the issue of images of child abuse appearing online.
0:21:43 > 0:21:47This was done after David Cameron asked them to do so.
0:21:47 > 0:21:53There is a way of appealing to a company to act on an issue.
0:21:53 > 0:21:56It's not just a question of conscience.
0:21:56 > 0:22:02It is a question of transparency. We have to have transparency.
0:22:02 > 0:22:07We have to see where they pay their taxes.
0:22:07 > 0:22:09This is not transparent at the moment.
0:22:09 > 0:22:14We also need agreement between different bodies.
0:22:14 > 0:22:18You have a number of different bodies at different levels.
0:22:18 > 0:22:24It is difficult to get agreement across all of these.
0:22:24 > 0:22:31We have to make sure that the politicians and people responsible
0:22:31 > 0:22:37for collecting taxes talk to each other on an international basis.
0:22:39 > 0:22:45Albert, you talked about boycotting and protesting.
0:22:45 > 0:22:50We have seen some protests outside Starbucks,
0:22:50 > 0:22:54but there is no suggestion yet that a firm such as Amazon
0:22:54 > 0:22:58will be quaking in their boots
0:22:58 > 0:23:02because people like to use the service.
0:23:02 > 0:23:08When Starbucks was named, it has had an effect.
0:23:08 > 0:23:13Their profit has decreased in the past six months.
0:23:13 > 0:23:20The leaders going to Northern Ireland will have to work together.
0:23:20 > 0:23:27As a charity, you cannot organise boycotts,
0:23:28 > 0:23:32but would you like to see action being taken?
0:23:32 > 0:23:35We would like to see action taking place.
0:23:35 > 0:23:39People are very angry about this.
0:23:42 > 0:23:47We can see that budgets are being affected in the richer countries,
0:23:47 > 0:23:50and the situation is even worse with poorer countries.
0:23:50 > 0:23:55We need to get that money back to them.
0:23:55 > 0:23:58Thank you very much. We'll be back at the usual time of 9.30 next week.
0:23:58 > 0:24:02Among other thing, we'll be asking if we have too many councils
0:24:02 > 0:24:06and councillors.
0:24:06 > 0:24:10Join us next week. Until then, goodbye.