0:00:19 > 0:00:25Good evening and welcome to CF99 live from the National Assembly.
0:00:25 > 0:00:27On the programme the language,
0:00:27 > 0:00:31the First Minister and a late night for Assembly Members.
0:00:31 > 0:00:34First, let's welcome our guests tonight -
0:00:34 > 0:00:36the Language Commissioner, Meri Huws,
0:00:36 > 0:00:40Llyr Roberts, a business lecturer at the University of South Wales.
0:00:40 > 0:00:45And the chair of the Welsh Language Society, Robin Farrar.
0:00:45 > 0:00:49Tomorrow, the First Minister will host a conference
0:00:49 > 0:00:55on the government's Welsh language scheme, the Big Conversation.
0:00:55 > 0:00:59Our reporter, James Williams, has been back to Carmarthenshire
0:00:59 > 0:01:02to assess the state of the language where he was brought up.
0:01:13 > 0:01:18St Clear's is a small town in Carmarthenshire.
0:01:18 > 0:01:22It was central to the Rebecca Riots 170 years ago.
0:01:22 > 0:01:27I was raised in this town and went to a Welsh-medium school here,
0:01:27 > 0:01:31but English was the language in the local shops,
0:01:31 > 0:01:36at the football club and the local rugby club.
0:01:36 > 0:01:40Although Carmarthenshire is seen as a stronghold for the language,
0:01:40 > 0:01:44this is where the largest fall was seen in Welsh speakers
0:01:44 > 0:01:47in the last census.
0:01:47 > 0:01:51Fewer than half the people here now speak Welsh.
0:01:51 > 0:01:53Ten miles away near the town of Carmarthen
0:01:53 > 0:01:55is Bro Myrddin Comprehensive School.
0:01:55 > 0:01:58Huw Griffiths was my geography teacher.
0:01:58 > 0:02:01Have you seen a big change?
0:02:01 > 0:02:05I don't think so. Welsh is thriving in this school.
0:02:05 > 0:02:10I do hear English spoken on the corridors.
0:02:10 > 0:02:15Very often they speak English naturally together,
0:02:15 > 0:02:19but they are able to speak Welsh.
0:02:19 > 0:02:25They just decide not to use it every time.
0:02:25 > 0:02:30Because we live in a Welsh-speaking area,
0:02:30 > 0:02:35many think the Welsh language will go on for ever,
0:02:35 > 0:02:39but I think we need to make it clear how fragile the Welsh language is.
0:02:39 > 0:02:44If we don't use it, it will disappear.
0:02:44 > 0:02:48Although there is a strong Welsh community in the area,
0:02:48 > 0:02:53you don't always hear Welsh spoken on the schoolyard.
0:02:53 > 0:02:55I have been brought up in a Welsh-speaking home,
0:02:55 > 0:02:58so it comes naturally for me.
0:02:58 > 0:03:01For children from English-speaking families,
0:03:01 > 0:03:03they find it easier to talk in English.
0:03:03 > 0:03:09I think many people feel they have to speak Welsh properly.
0:03:09 > 0:03:16They see the Welsh language as something people criticise.
0:03:16 > 0:03:20Although we both met at comprehensive school
0:03:20 > 0:03:22and we both come from Welsh-speaking families,
0:03:22 > 0:03:26my friend and I often speak English together.
0:03:26 > 0:03:29He is one of my friends who has decided to stay in the area
0:03:29 > 0:03:33where he has started a buy-to-let business in Carmarthen.
0:03:33 > 0:03:36How important is Welsh to you
0:03:36 > 0:03:39in terms of attracting business and developing your company?
0:03:39 > 0:03:41Very important.
0:03:41 > 0:03:44It is so important because if we speak to a customer in Welsh,
0:03:44 > 0:03:50you have an immediate connection.
0:03:50 > 0:03:56People who rent homes from us so far only a few people I've come across
0:03:56 > 0:03:59have been able to speak Welsh.
0:03:59 > 0:04:03A lot of the people we have found homes for
0:04:03 > 0:04:07are people like doctors from over the border
0:04:07 > 0:04:12or English-speaking families.
0:04:12 > 0:04:14The burning issue in Carmarthenshire at the moment
0:04:14 > 0:04:20is the effect of planning applications on the language.
0:04:20 > 0:04:24If the ambition to build 300 homes in the area likely to alter
0:04:24 > 0:04:25the future of the language here?
0:04:25 > 0:04:30People are also scratching their heads over the best way
0:04:30 > 0:04:34to encourage people to use the Welsh language in their daily lives.
0:04:34 > 0:04:38That is very important in making sure the next census figures
0:04:38 > 0:04:40are more encouraging.
0:04:40 > 0:04:47Those are the sort of questions the First Minister wants us to discuss.
0:04:47 > 0:04:50Have we been spending too long discussing
0:04:50 > 0:04:55things like the status of the language rather than asking
0:04:55 > 0:05:00more fundamental questions like, how often people use the language?
0:05:00 > 0:05:05All those questions are important, and we need to look at them all.
0:05:05 > 0:05:11I welcome the fact this conference is taking place tomorrow.
0:05:11 > 0:05:15It is not one question or the other. We need to discuss all options.
0:05:15 > 0:05:20We heard the young people there talking about their impression
0:05:20 > 0:05:26of the Welsh language, and it strikes a chord with me.
0:05:26 > 0:05:31We have to discuss whether it is about the way Welsh
0:05:31 > 0:05:36is used at home or at work.
0:05:36 > 0:05:38Does age come into it?
0:05:38 > 0:05:42We saw a pupil there, I went to school with his father.
0:05:42 > 0:05:46I spoke English to his father, if I remember correctly,
0:05:46 > 0:05:49but if we met now, we would speak Welsh.
0:05:49 > 0:05:53There is pressure on children which doesn't exist when you get older.
0:05:53 > 0:06:00That is very true. I used to speak Welsh at school as a protest.
0:06:00 > 0:06:04It was part of the way I defined myself, I suppose.
0:06:04 > 0:06:08We need to look at why people choose to use either language.
0:06:08 > 0:06:14Rather than condemning people, we need to encourage people.
0:06:14 > 0:06:19Have we been slow to ask these questions and consider
0:06:19 > 0:06:27broader subjects than issues like bilingual signs and so on?
0:06:27 > 0:06:33I would say the Government has been slow in this case.
0:06:33 > 0:06:37The strategy they have been following
0:06:37 > 0:06:40hasn't been ambitious enough.
0:06:40 > 0:06:45It hasn't enabled them to reach their own targets.
0:06:45 > 0:06:47The First Minister acknowledged that earlier.
0:06:47 > 0:06:51He said everyone's language had failed,
0:06:51 > 0:06:54what should the Government do?
0:06:54 > 0:07:00It's good to hear the First Minister finally acknowledging that.
0:07:00 > 0:07:05That has been obvious since the census result was released.
0:07:05 > 0:07:07What they have to do now is to make sure
0:07:07 > 0:07:12the current strategy doesn't fail.
0:07:12 > 0:07:18In order to achieve that, they need to adopt far-reaching policies,
0:07:18 > 0:07:23which we have suggested in our manifesto.
0:07:23 > 0:07:28We made 38 recommendations, things like language standards,
0:07:28 > 0:07:32making sure they're achieved.
0:07:32 > 0:07:38We need to get these things right. I agree with Meri Huws.
0:07:38 > 0:07:41We do need to consider all options,
0:07:41 > 0:07:47but there are a number of issues we understand already.
0:07:47 > 0:07:52We need to set up clear guidelines for the language and its future.
0:07:52 > 0:07:57We need the planning system to take the language into consideration.
0:07:57 > 0:08:01It is important that it meets local demands.
0:08:01 > 0:08:06We need to take action immediately
0:08:06 > 0:08:11There was one throw-away sentence in that report when he said
0:08:11 > 0:08:16"One of a few of my friends decided to stay in the area."
0:08:16 > 0:08:20Isn't that the heart of the problem
0:08:20 > 0:08:25in Welsh-speaking areas, people tend to move to Cardiff perhaps?
0:08:25 > 0:08:28Without a strong local economy,
0:08:28 > 0:08:32it's difficult to keep young people in the area.
0:08:32 > 0:08:34That is a big problem to tackle.
0:08:34 > 0:08:38We all agree that we need an economic revival in these areas.
0:08:38 > 0:08:42The crisis we are facing with the language is a lot deeper
0:08:42 > 0:08:44than just Carmarthenshire.
0:08:44 > 0:08:49What we need urgently is a marketing campaign
0:08:49 > 0:08:54to give people confidence to use the language.
0:08:54 > 0:09:00Something wonderful happened to me today.
0:09:00 > 0:09:06I organised to go to a garage in the capital on the internet,
0:09:06 > 0:09:09and I left a message in English.
0:09:09 > 0:09:13I received an answer phone message in Welsh.
0:09:13 > 0:09:17We need to create that environment
0:09:17 > 0:09:22and that confidence in people to use Welsh in the workplace and socially.
0:09:22 > 0:09:29- That is where we need to focus. - But is that enough?
0:09:29 > 0:09:33Many would say the difference between the state of the Welsh
0:09:33 > 0:09:38in Carmarthenshire and in North Wales
0:09:38 > 0:09:42stem from decisions made by Gwynedd Council
0:09:42 > 0:09:43regarding the education system.
0:09:43 > 0:09:50Today, we live with the outcome of those decisions.
0:09:50 > 0:09:56We are still living with those decisions 25 years on.
0:09:56 > 0:10:01That may be true, but we have to face that today.
0:10:01 > 0:10:04We have to look at the strategies we can put forward today.
0:10:04 > 0:10:06We need to look at the skills
0:10:06 > 0:10:10we nurture in young people in further education.
0:10:10 > 0:10:15They need to take those skills through to the workplace.
0:10:15 > 0:10:22A Director of Education in North Wales said in 1975
0:10:22 > 0:10:26every primary school in Gwynedd should be a Welsh-medium school.
0:10:26 > 0:10:31Is that possible today in Carmarthenshire?
0:10:31 > 0:10:33It's been done in South Ceredigion.
0:10:33 > 0:10:38There is nothing to stop it, but we go back to the planning system.
0:10:38 > 0:10:40We need a national planning system
0:10:40 > 0:10:43which takes the Welsh language into account.
0:10:43 > 0:10:47We need to it ensure that Welsh remains a living language.
0:10:47 > 0:10:52I would say standards are very important
0:10:52 > 0:10:59because we need standards in order to create growth.
0:10:59 > 0:11:02Robin, I mentioned the conference on the Big Conversation.
0:11:02 > 0:11:06Many people might see it as a talking shop.
0:11:06 > 0:11:14How would you measure its success? Is that possible?
0:11:14 > 0:11:20Within a few days, we will see whether the First Minister
0:11:20 > 0:11:24is showing the necessary leadership in terms of policy.
0:11:24 > 0:11:27This is a critical time for the First Minister.
0:11:27 > 0:11:32I'm looking forward to seeing how he will tackle the problem tomorrow.
0:11:32 > 0:11:37Will he make the difficult decisions which are necessary
0:11:37 > 0:11:41in order to make sure that we don't find ourselves in a situation
0:11:41 > 0:11:46similar to the planning situation in Carmarthenshire?
0:11:46 > 0:11:51The Welsh language hasn't been taken into account there.
0:11:51 > 0:11:56Decisions have been taken based on decisions
0:11:56 > 0:12:02which are over 20 years old.
0:12:02 > 0:12:08That doesn't take the language into consideration.
0:12:08 > 0:12:13Those decisions have to be made on a statutory basis.
0:12:13 > 0:12:16There are wider questions,
0:12:16 > 0:12:20and we will discuss those over the years to come.
0:12:20 > 0:12:24I don't disagree but we are talking
0:12:24 > 0:12:27about an immediate crisis here.
0:12:27 > 0:12:32I think we need to act urgently. We need to invest heavily immediately
0:12:32 > 0:12:36to promote the language.
0:12:36 > 0:12:38We need to educate people
0:12:38 > 0:12:42and create opportunities for people to use the language.
0:12:42 > 0:12:47I would like to have a better idea of which direction the Government
0:12:47 > 0:12:53is going in after tomorrow's conference.
0:12:53 > 0:12:58We'll have to leave it there, thanks to all three of you.
0:12:58 > 0:13:04We've heard the First Minister's comments on tomorrow's conference.
0:13:04 > 0:13:07Speaking to Aled ap Dafydd, he also explained why he took
0:13:07 > 0:13:11responsibility for the language when he reshuffled his Cabinet
0:13:11 > 0:13:16following the resignation of the Education Minister, Leighton Andrews.
0:13:16 > 0:13:21It is important that I have responsibility for the language
0:13:21 > 0:13:26because we are facing a significant challenge.
0:13:26 > 0:13:29The language is a cross-departmental issue in the Assembly.
0:13:29 > 0:13:35That makes it very important. Our language has changed.
0:13:35 > 0:13:39Languages are constantly evolving.
0:13:39 > 0:13:44My language is similar to that spoken in South Carmarthenshire.
0:13:44 > 0:13:45I've changed it a little.
0:13:45 > 0:13:49I don't use words like coethan, aelwyd and colfen
0:13:49 > 0:13:55when I speak in public or no-one would understand me.
0:13:55 > 0:14:01I have a duty to show people I can communicate with people in Wales.
0:14:01 > 0:14:06And I need to show people that they too can speak Welsh with confidence.
0:14:06 > 0:14:09I need to suggest to people they can use Welsh with confidence.
0:14:09 > 0:14:14As we are talking about changes within the government.
0:14:14 > 0:14:19When you look back at the last two weeks, how would you describe them?
0:14:19 > 0:14:25No-one could have predicted what happened.
0:14:25 > 0:14:31I came into work on Tuesday, and things change.
0:14:31 > 0:14:38It's often important to bring in new Ministers.
0:14:38 > 0:14:41In an article in the Western Mail,
0:14:41 > 0:14:47Leighton Andrews said he was sacked. Is that how you see it?
0:14:47 > 0:14:51No. It was a very difficult situation.
0:14:51 > 0:14:56It was difficult for Leighton Andrews
0:14:56 > 0:14:59in his role as Education Minister.
0:14:59 > 0:15:04I am sure he will play a part in the Government in years to come.
0:15:04 > 0:15:08Meri Huws, you have had a few clashes with Leighton Andrews
0:15:08 > 0:15:13as many people before and after you. Were you glad to see him go?
0:15:13 > 0:15:18I am glad the First Minister has taken responsibility
0:15:18 > 0:15:20for the Welsh language,
0:15:20 > 0:15:26and I am glad he has given the language that status.
0:15:26 > 0:15:32Are you expecting a better response to some of your suggestions?
0:15:32 > 0:15:35I am glad to say we had a meeting this afternoon,
0:15:35 > 0:15:39and it was a very constructive meeting.
0:15:39 > 0:15:42We managed to cover a lot of ground.
0:15:42 > 0:15:45I am very hopeful that the First Minister
0:15:45 > 0:15:51will see the importance of the development of standards.
0:15:51 > 0:15:54Let me ask you about those standards.
0:15:54 > 0:15:59Leighton Andrews refused your suggestions regarding standards.
0:15:59 > 0:16:03- Are those back on the table? - It is still early days.
0:16:03 > 0:16:09I'm sure we will have an interesting discussion on it.
0:16:09 > 0:16:12The Welsh Language Commissioner knows how to be diplomatic.
0:16:12 > 0:16:16How do you read those words, Gareth?
0:16:16 > 0:16:20It looks to me as if she is very happy that the First Minister
0:16:20 > 0:16:24is take an interest in the Welsh language.
0:16:24 > 0:16:28He is the top man, and if you want a decision to go your way,
0:16:28 > 0:16:32it has to come from the top.
0:16:35 > 0:16:41And how do you interpret the role of the First Minister
0:16:41 > 0:16:46regarding the language? He is a busy man.
0:16:46 > 0:16:51Will he be able to give the necessary time to focus on the language?
0:16:51 > 0:16:55He certainly has a broad portfolio,
0:16:55 > 0:17:01and he won't be able to focus only on the language.
0:17:01 > 0:17:08But the Education Minister had a broad portfolio as well.
0:17:08 > 0:17:12One thing is important, and that is that he can't hide away,
0:17:12 > 0:17:18and he can't blame anyone else the buck stops
0:17:18 > 0:17:21with the First Minister.
0:17:23 > 0:17:29Listening to that interview, I think the First Minister is defiant.
0:17:29 > 0:17:34He is someone who understands the size of the challenge.
0:17:34 > 0:17:38He is very supportive of the language and its development.
0:17:38 > 0:17:42Whatever you say about Leighton Andrews,
0:17:42 > 0:17:49he did make you think and he did tackle the difficult decisions.
0:17:49 > 0:17:52I hope the First Minister will have as much oomph.
0:17:52 > 0:18:00You need someone with a bit of oomph to push these civil servants.
0:18:00 > 0:18:03But I bet a bottle of champagne has been opened at the office
0:18:03 > 0:18:08- of the National Eisteddfod. - I can't comment on that!
0:18:08 > 0:18:14At this time last night, AMs were still debating in the chamber.
0:18:14 > 0:18:17At the end of the epic session, a clear majority voted in favour
0:18:17 > 0:18:21of legislation that will change the organ donation system in Wales.
0:18:21 > 0:18:24But is there a broader significance?
0:18:24 > 0:18:28Many see it as an important milestone for devolution.
0:18:28 > 0:18:35It has been a big day for Wales. It has been a big day for the Assembly.
0:18:35 > 0:18:40We have shown that we are able to use the powers afforded to us
0:18:40 > 0:18:44and use them successfully.
0:18:44 > 0:18:48But I also think it is a big day for those people
0:18:48 > 0:18:51waiting on the transplant list.
0:18:51 > 0:18:57Gareth Huws, as a political commentator,
0:18:57 > 0:18:59is this an historic moment?
0:18:59 > 0:19:02The Assembly hasn't been here long,
0:19:02 > 0:19:05so every day is an historic day in a way.
0:19:07 > 0:19:09We have many firsts here,
0:19:09 > 0:19:15but I don't think it's as significant as people are saying.
0:19:15 > 0:19:19What was most significant was the fact that the media in England
0:19:19 > 0:19:21took notice of the Assembly.
0:19:21 > 0:19:27Can't we decide our own agenda without someone from the outside
0:19:27 > 0:19:30telling us how important it is.
0:19:30 > 0:19:33We just give it a small mention on the news.
0:19:33 > 0:19:37Is that how we determine what is important?
0:19:37 > 0:19:39I don't think it should be.
0:19:39 > 0:19:43But they are now discussing something that deserves
0:19:43 > 0:19:46a place on the national news.
0:19:46 > 0:19:48Well, this place should be blamed for that.
0:19:48 > 0:19:55We've had a great deal of time to discuss this.
0:19:55 > 0:19:57This legislation has been debated
0:19:57 > 0:20:00since the very start of the Assembly.
0:20:00 > 0:20:05Dai Lloyd was debating this at the start of this establishment.
0:20:05 > 0:20:08It is only now we have had the vote after ten years.
0:20:08 > 0:20:13If we are going to take that long to create all legislation,
0:20:13 > 0:20:17we're going to find it very difficult.
0:20:17 > 0:20:20Llyr, I think it's impossible to be quite so cynical as Gareth Hughes,
0:20:20 > 0:20:23- do you share that cynicism? - Not at all.
0:20:23 > 0:20:30I walked past this building earlier today, and I was so proud of it.
0:20:30 > 0:20:34Wales has its own Parliament.
0:20:34 > 0:20:40These are complicated issues that are now being discussed here.
0:20:40 > 0:20:44There was a sensible and important debate from both sides,
0:20:44 > 0:20:48and this decision, I feel, will lead to many lives being saved.
0:20:48 > 0:20:51For me, it was a historic step.
0:20:51 > 0:20:54Meri, is this historic?
0:20:54 > 0:21:01The Health Minister spoke about the powers to legislate.
0:21:01 > 0:21:06It is now the Assembly's job to legislate for the people of Wales.
0:21:06 > 0:21:09They need to learn how to draft these laws
0:21:09 > 0:21:15and create laws that are clear and understandable.
0:21:15 > 0:21:21That is something Assembly members will have to learn over time.
0:21:21 > 0:21:26I have not yet been convinced those skills exist in the chamber.
0:21:26 > 0:21:33Would you like to expand on the problems
0:21:33 > 0:21:34that has been with this measure?
0:21:34 > 0:21:38Rather than talk about the problems, I'll just say
0:21:38 > 0:21:43that it's a measure which is defined by a process.
0:21:43 > 0:21:47What we need to learn to do in Wales
0:21:47 > 0:21:53is to legislate for the people of Wales.
0:21:53 > 0:21:58I would challenge the members to establish a constitution for Wales.
0:21:58 > 0:22:02We live in Britain, where there is no constitution, and that creates
0:22:02 > 0:22:07problems when we talk about the rights of the individual.
0:22:07 > 0:22:13I think we should have a human rights law here in Wales.
0:22:13 > 0:22:16That is very ambitious.
0:22:16 > 0:22:19Do you expect to see one of those in the near future, Gareth?
0:22:19 > 0:22:22It would be historic,
0:22:22 > 0:22:25but it would take some time to achieve something like that.
0:22:25 > 0:22:29At one point yesterday,
0:22:29 > 0:22:37they discussed the agricultural wages board.
0:22:37 > 0:22:44Yes, but they didn't make it law.
0:22:44 > 0:22:46Twice in this place,
0:22:46 > 0:22:51I think they have made a mess of legislation
0:22:51 > 0:22:54on more than one occasion.
0:22:54 > 0:22:58This time I think it has gone well,
0:23:00 > 0:23:07but I don't think the legislation will make much difference.
0:23:09 > 0:23:12I'm far from convinced.
0:23:12 > 0:23:18But it's a good thing even if it saves just ten or 15 lives.
0:23:18 > 0:23:22I think it's worth it just for that.
0:23:22 > 0:23:25But Llyr, Labour was whipped.
0:23:25 > 0:23:30The First Minister was the only one standing up for Labour.
0:23:30 > 0:23:33- Were you surprised by that? - Yes, I'm glad.
0:23:33 > 0:23:40I don't really understand the arguments against this measure,
0:23:40 > 0:23:43so I can't be neutral.
0:23:43 > 0:23:47The result is what matters to me, and the standard of scrutiny.
0:23:47 > 0:23:53Thank you very much. That's it for tonight.
0:23:53 > 0:24:01We'll back at the same time next week. Goodbye.