:00:23. > :00:27.Afternoon, folks, welcome to the Daily Politics, on a day that Ed
:00:27. > :00:29.Miliband goes on the offensive. After days of bad headlines and
:00:29. > :00:33.revelations about his relationship with his brother, the Labour leader
:00:33. > :00:40.will attempt to gain the initiative with a speech that gets tough on
:00:40. > :00:44.those who abuse the benefits system. We will ask how secure he is in his
:00:44. > :00:48.position. The Lib Dems seem to be smiling,
:00:48. > :00:51.but what about the rest of us? As more details emerge about the
:00:51. > :00:56.proposed changes to the health bill, we will get the thoughts of two
:00:56. > :00:58.professionals who work in the NHS. And despite months of NATO
:00:59. > :01:08.bombardment, Colonel Gaddafi remains clinging to power, so are
:01:09. > :01:13.
:01:13. > :01:20.we any closer to an endgame in Progress is slow and steady. But
:01:20. > :01:23.strategy is working. All that in the next half-hour. If
:01:23. > :01:30.you have any thoughts or comments on anything we are discussing, you
:01:31. > :01:35.can send them to us at With us for the whole programme is
:01:35. > :01:38.the journalist and historian, Max Hastings. Welcome to the show. A
:01:38. > :01:40.little bit later today, we should get more of an idea about the
:01:40. > :01:43.proposed changes to the government's health reforms.
:01:43. > :01:45.Professor Steve Field, who headed a two-month consultation on the plans,
:01:45. > :01:48.has just officially handed over his recommendations to David Cameron,
:01:48. > :01:54.the details of which are expected to be made public later this
:01:54. > :01:59.afternoon. Earlier this morning, the Prime Minister briefed his new
:01:59. > :02:03.MPs on the proposed changes. He's facing a potential rebellion from
:02:03. > :02:06.some of his backbenchers, who are worried that the bill will be too
:02:06. > :02:15.watered down. Let's get more on this from our political
:02:15. > :02:19.correspondent. Tell us what the nature of these changes will be?
:02:19. > :02:24.Professor Steve Field has been at these listening exercises, along
:02:24. > :02:30.with David Cameron for much of the time. So I think we will see a
:02:30. > :02:33.report that follows the trend of thinking so that there will be
:02:33. > :02:37.wider commissioning boards, not just doctors, but other health
:02:37. > :02:41.professionals as well, limits to the involvement of the private
:02:41. > :02:46.sector to make sure they do not just cherry-pick the easy bits.
:02:47. > :02:53.Some relaxation on the deadline requiring these changes to the way
:02:53. > :02:57.the NHS works. And interestingly, looking again at this role of the
:02:57. > :03:01.health secretary said that he or she in a future government retains
:03:01. > :03:08.the overall responsibility to make sure the NHS is available to
:03:08. > :03:12.everyone in the country, free of charge at the point of need. Those
:03:12. > :03:17.are the directions we have been seeing these changes moving, and
:03:17. > :03:22.that is what we expect to hear from Steve Field. If that is what we get,
:03:23. > :03:26.it will be endorsed by the Government. The Lib Dems will be
:03:26. > :03:32.quick to claim credit for these changes. How much of a role have
:03:32. > :03:35.they played in getting everything we written? They have been crowing
:03:35. > :03:41.about how successful they have been in getting these changes through,
:03:41. > :03:46.to the irritation of a lot of Conservative MPs. They certainly
:03:46. > :03:50.did have an influence, but I think David Cameron looked at the
:03:50. > :03:54.opposition to the changes from a number of different directions,
:03:54. > :03:58.from health professionals, from the Liberal Democrats, but also across
:03:58. > :04:02.the spectrum where there was concern about how this would work.
:04:03. > :04:08.And I think he took a deep breath and decided it was better to take
:04:08. > :04:12.the flak he has taken for doing that to get the change is right.
:04:12. > :04:16.There are concerns on the Conservative benches not just that
:04:16. > :04:19.the reforms have been watered down to appease the Lib Dems, but that
:04:19. > :04:24.as a result we have something that will not deliver the efficiencies
:04:24. > :04:28.the NHS needs. There is a concern that if you relax the deadline as
:04:28. > :04:31.to how quickly this has to happen and if you restrict the involvement
:04:31. > :04:36.of the private sector, you do not get the efficiencies that will be
:04:36. > :04:39.needed if the NHS is to save �20 billion over four years.
:04:39. > :04:42.With me now is Mike Farrar, who is the chief executive of the NHS
:04:42. > :04:52.Confederation, and Sir Richard Thompson, from the Royal College of
:04:52. > :04:53.
:04:53. > :05:03.Physicians. So, job done. It does not feel like that. We are still
:05:03. > :05:07.waiting for the detail. It will make life easier for you. Well, we
:05:07. > :05:14.believe the pause is right. It is important that people are listened
:05:14. > :05:18.to. Most of the points we have been talking to reform about are about
:05:18. > :05:24.patient interest. They are about defending patients' interest
:05:24. > :05:28.through these changes. Are you happy with the changes? From what I
:05:28. > :05:33.have heard, a lot of the changes are things we have asked for, yes.
:05:33. > :05:37.Will you now back the Bill? I have to see the result. But if it is
:05:37. > :05:43.generally along the lines where by competition will now be severely
:05:43. > :05:47.limited, the deadline for moving to GP commissioning by 2013 will go,
:05:47. > :05:52.if it is along these lines...? those are improvements. It is no
:05:52. > :05:59.longer much of a reform, what is the point of it now? There are some
:05:59. > :06:05.important things that are part of this. Clinicians are taking part.
:06:05. > :06:09.There are public health changes. We have been asking for a more
:06:09. > :06:13.intelligent application of the ideology. Competition can be good
:06:13. > :06:18.in the interests of patients, but sometimes it destabilises, so we
:06:18. > :06:22.need an intelligent debate between competition and integration and
:06:22. > :06:26.collaboration. It is difficult to find out why Cameron plunged into
:06:26. > :06:29.this issue so quickly. Professor Tony King said to me a while ago,
:06:29. > :06:34.why didn't they give themselves more time to learn how to govern
:06:34. > :06:37.her before they went this way? I have not forgotten one of Cameron's
:06:37. > :06:41.team saying a few months ago, I am beginning to understand how
:06:41. > :06:46.Hitler's generals felt when they heard he was going to invade Russia
:06:46. > :06:50.when I heard we were going to do NHS reform. It is one of those
:06:50. > :06:54.problems that surely they could have seen coming. I have not
:06:54. > :07:00.figured out why they wanted to go so fast. Most of what is now being
:07:00. > :07:04.proposed could be done with existing legislation, could it not?
:07:04. > :07:08.The elephant in the room is the increasing load on the health
:07:08. > :07:11.service, both primary and secondary care. I do not think these things
:07:11. > :07:16.will solve that problem. Public health will take a long time to
:07:16. > :07:19.produce improvements. But to be fair to the reforms, they encourage
:07:19. > :07:24.integration between primary and secondary care. They should not be
:07:24. > :07:28.separation between hospitals and community services. But the
:07:28. > :07:31.business about competition, which was at the core of this bill at one
:07:31. > :07:36.stage, the buyers of Health were to be the doctors, and they could
:07:36. > :07:39.choose from an array of providers. That was clear-cut. People like you
:07:39. > :07:45.and the Lib Dems did not like it, although they argued for it in
:07:45. > :07:49.opposition. That is kind of fudge to now. You talked about
:07:49. > :07:54.competition and collaboration. I do not understand where one begins and
:07:54. > :07:59.the other Wrens. This is a huge industry, covering a multiplicity
:07:59. > :08:03.of different interventions. In stroke care, you want centres of
:08:03. > :08:09.excellence that can deal with things quickly and concentrate
:08:09. > :08:12.expertise. There is a lot of care where primary and secondary care
:08:12. > :08:16.should work together closely. But there are other areas where if it
:08:16. > :08:20.was my mother, I would not want her to be covered by a poor-quality
:08:20. > :08:24.service if there was something better available. You want a choice
:08:24. > :08:30.in those aspects. We are saying that you can be intelligent rather
:08:30. > :08:35.than ideological about this. The ideology has got him away sometimes
:08:35. > :08:40.of what should be about patient interest. A lot of work is already
:08:40. > :08:48.done privately. 20% of renal dialysis is done that way. I am not
:08:48. > :08:52.against it. DUP I would want to integrate it more. If you are going
:08:52. > :08:56.to have your hip operation down the road in a competitive private
:08:56. > :09:01.hospital, you have not got the back at you need if things go wrong.
:09:01. > :09:04.it seems to be much ado about nothing in the end. We have had
:09:04. > :09:09.this institutional argument, which the Government has essentially lost.
:09:09. > :09:13.The big issue has been raised that there is a �20 billion shortfall in
:09:13. > :09:19.the years to come. That has not been resolved. Exactly. The Big
:09:19. > :09:28.Issue is surely whether we are any nearer to making ends meet in
:09:28. > :09:31.having an affordable health system? The answer has to be no. Personally,
:09:31. > :09:36.I think eventually more money will have to be put into the health
:09:36. > :09:39.service. We are way below the level of funding in America. I cannot
:09:39. > :09:46.figure why they did not give themselves more time to think this
:09:46. > :09:48.through. I know the answer to that, but I have not got time to tell you.
:09:48. > :09:55.They differ being with us. Now, how was your weekend? Good?
:09:55. > :09:59.Bad? Average? I had a barbecue. So-called, I had
:09:59. > :10:01.to serve it inside. Well, whatever happened, I bet it can't have been
:10:02. > :10:03.half as bad as Ed Miliband's. Headline after headline gave us
:10:04. > :10:05.graphic details about his relationship with his brother,
:10:06. > :10:08.senior Labour figures' apparent unhappiness with his leadership
:10:08. > :10:13.style and allegations concerning scheming with Ed Balls to remove
:10:14. > :10:16.Tony Blair as Prime Minister. Surely not. Mr Miliband is making a
:10:16. > :10:22.keynote speech this afternoon, outlining his plans for the future
:10:22. > :10:25.direction of the Labour Party. No pressure there, then. Anita can
:10:25. > :10:28.give us more. Rain may have stopped play at the
:10:28. > :10:34.tennis yesterday, but it didn't put an end to the troubles that Ed
:10:34. > :10:39.Miliband has been facing. He was lobbed some tricky balls over the
:10:39. > :10:42.weekend. That has raised further questions about his ability to play
:10:42. > :10:45.the right shots when it comes to leading the Labour Party. He was
:10:45. > :10:48.put on the back foot by leaks to the Daily Telegraph linking him to
:10:48. > :10:54.involvement with moves back in 2005 to remove Tony Blair and replace
:10:54. > :10:57.him with Gordon Brown. He was served another tricky shot
:10:57. > :11:01.following the leak of his brother David Miliband's leadership
:11:01. > :11:05.acceptance speech that never was. This led to more accusations from
:11:05. > :11:09.some that his brother would be a better leader. Further body blows
:11:09. > :11:11.came from a new book serialised in a Sunday paper that claims that
:11:11. > :11:15.David Miliband is unhappy about Labour's direction under Ed's
:11:15. > :11:17.leadership and that they are barely on speaking terms. And he has also
:11:17. > :11:24.had below-the-belt shots from unnamed critics briefing against
:11:24. > :11:27.him in the papers. Today, Ed Miliband is going to try to put all
:11:27. > :11:30.these dropped points behind him. He's making a speech that focuses
:11:30. > :11:32.on responsibility, arguing that those at the top and bottom of
:11:32. > :11:42.society should be responsible for their actions, although whether the
:11:42. > :11:42.
:11:42. > :11:45.speech is going to be an ace remains to be seen.
:11:45. > :11:51.With us now is the shadow health secretary John Healey and John
:11:51. > :11:59.McTernan, who was Tony Blair's political secretary.
:11:59. > :12:03.John Healey, what problems, if any, have there been with the Miliband
:12:03. > :12:07.strategy so far? The problem we all face is what all leaders of
:12:07. > :12:11.opposition space in the early days after losing in government. It is
:12:11. > :12:15.hard to get through to the public. It took David Cameron time to
:12:15. > :12:19.establish himself in the public mind. This speech from Ed Miliband
:12:19. > :12:25.today will help to do that. He is one of the few politicians that
:12:25. > :12:28.sees the long game and some of the long-term challenges we have to
:12:28. > :12:33.face as a country. This is part of his programme to make those
:12:33. > :12:37.arguments to the public. Maybe it will be a speech in which he admits
:12:37. > :12:41.that the last Labour government screwed up. It will be based on
:12:41. > :12:45.what Ed Miliband has said from the start, which is that you do not
:12:45. > :12:50.lose elections if you lose connection with people. This is
:12:50. > :12:54.based on a sense that in government, Labour lost some connection with
:12:54. > :12:59.people who need to believe that a Labour government is on their side.
:12:59. > :13:04.He will talk today about some of the things that trouble people most
:13:04. > :13:09.in the tail-end of the last Labour government. Are you happy with this
:13:09. > :13:15.beach? Will it make a difference? One speech does not change things.
:13:15. > :13:18.The Labour Party's problem was the polling that found that most voters
:13:18. > :13:24.thought Labour stood for lone parents and immigrants in the last
:13:24. > :13:26.election. Somebody has to stand for them. It would be good to stand for
:13:26. > :13:32.a broader coalition if you are going to represent the British
:13:32. > :13:37.people. The gap missing in Ed's politics is symbolic policies,
:13:37. > :13:41.policies which indicate whose side he is really on. If you get a job,
:13:41. > :13:45.you should look back bank be looked at more seriously for council
:13:45. > :13:50.housing rather than council housing being simply for welfare recipients.
:13:50. > :13:53.If you'd better yourself, the state should be backing you. That is a
:13:53. > :13:59.more powerful signal. But at the same time, we understand that he
:13:59. > :14:03.will vote against the welfare reforms, correct? We have said we
:14:03. > :14:06.will take the welfare reforms the Government are planning on their
:14:06. > :14:10.merits. One of the big flaws in what the Government is planning is
:14:10. > :14:16.that it hits a lot of disabled people very hard. Perhaps even the
:14:16. > :14:21.Government is starting to rethink those plans. But are you going to
:14:21. > :14:24.vote against the principle of the reforms? We will challenge the bill
:14:24. > :14:28.in the way it is needed in the areas that are needed. Where the
:14:28. > :14:32.government is doing the right thing, we will give them our backing. That
:14:32. > :14:37.is what Ed Miliband said, responsible opposition. These
:14:37. > :14:43.reforms had a 65% approval rating among Labour voters. Why would you
:14:43. > :14:50.vote against them. Reforming welfare is a fundamental thing the
:14:50. > :14:54.Labour Party has to embrace. that is at the committee stage.
:14:54. > :14:58.Labour, under Douglas Alexander, embraced a huge number of welfare
:14:58. > :15:02.reform changes in principle as well as practice. Liam Byrne has been
:15:02. > :15:06.saying similar things. He has gone further than Iain Duncan Smith in
:15:06. > :15:09.some areas. We need to see the Labour front bench in totality
:15:09. > :15:19.expressing its commitment to the welfare reforms and going beyond
:15:19. > :15:23.You had 13 years to do it and you did nothing but tinker with it.
:15:23. > :15:29.That's unfare. After 13 years, 5 million people of working age are
:15:29. > :15:35.not working. Incapacity benefit was reformed, fundamentally. It's still
:15:35. > :15:39.over 2 million. The stock is now growing. If you were to explain to
:15:40. > :15:45.the average person what de Miliband Labour Party stands for, what would
:15:45. > :15:49.it be? I think the three big arguments that Ed is trying to make
:15:49. > :15:52.it a signal to that. There are millions in Middle Britain at the
:15:52. > :15:57.moment who are badly squeezed. They are squeezed because of the cost of
:15:57. > :16:01.fuel, the cost of food, housing, the cost of living, because of
:16:01. > :16:05.their power and heating is going up. Their incomes, even when they are
:16:05. > :16:09.struggling and working, are static. A governor of the Bank of England
:16:09. > :16:13.has told us all of that. What would you do about it? Big government is
:16:13. > :16:16.making it worse by cutting some of the tax credit, child care support.
:16:16. > :16:20.In the end, failing to have an economy that is growing strongly
:16:20. > :16:24.and producing jobs. The second important thing for Ed is that
:16:24. > :16:28.sometimes he feels, and he's right about this, that we have lost sight
:16:28. > :16:32.of what pulls us together as a community. The third thing is that,
:16:32. > :16:35.for the first time, I think a lot of people are worried that the
:16:35. > :16:38.promise that Britain has always held to the next generation, that
:16:38. > :16:44.the opportunities for them are going to be better than they were
:16:44. > :16:48.for parents and grandparents, is failing. One of the things you and
:16:49. > :16:52.I have got from being around a long time is that one knows how quickly
:16:52. > :16:56.things can turn around for politicians. Although Ed Miliband
:16:57. > :17:00.is making a fist of it at the moment, I would have thought that
:17:00. > :17:04.three of four years down the track, even as we going to another General
:17:04. > :17:06.Election, with the lightly circumstances in which a great many
:17:07. > :17:10.people in this country are going to find themselves, living standards
:17:10. > :17:15.going nowhere, and only a small minority of people getting
:17:15. > :17:20.unbelievably rich, I would have thought that somewhere, I wouldn't
:17:20. > :17:26.write the Labour Party off. We remember people writing of the
:17:26. > :17:31.Tories five years ago. I wouldn't write it off at all. It's not
:17:31. > :17:35.Labour in 1983, it's not the Tories in 1997. They only need a small
:17:35. > :17:41.swing to win. That's why and tried to work out what the Labour Party
:17:41. > :17:45.stands for. Who said in 2010, with a fine night that the question or
:17:45. > :17:50.the answer, what we are for, nor why we are needed. That is what we
:17:50. > :17:57.need to put right. I don't know, I wouldn't win one of your mugs for
:17:57. > :18:02.the answer. Most people just steal them. It was David Miliband, and
:18:02. > :18:06.he's right, that is still the problem? Our conversation started
:18:06. > :18:10.from that very basis, I set myself in the first answer to the question.
:18:10. > :18:13.One of the problems in Labour at the tail-end of the last government,
:18:13. > :18:19.after 13 years, many people felt that they couldn't see and hear
:18:19. > :18:23.themselves, what we were doing, what they were saying. It was the
:18:23. > :18:28.bankers that bankrupted the country. It was Gordon Brown, he did a
:18:28. > :18:33.pretty good job of it. Before the bankers, globally, drovers to the
:18:33. > :18:37.brink of worldwide collapse, the deficit and the debt... Labour
:18:37. > :18:41.supporters have said they will not support Labour until it admits how
:18:41. > :18:47.badly it screwed up. Before we went into that global recession, driven
:18:47. > :18:52.by banker recklessness, the debt we carried as a nation and the deficit
:18:52. > :18:57.was lower than when we talk over from the Tories. -- took over.
:18:57. > :19:00.you think there has to be more a confession that we got it wrong?
:19:00. > :19:04.think Labour needs to regain economic credibility. It could be
:19:04. > :19:08.what Gordon did before 1997, when he said we would match the Tory
:19:08. > :19:12.spending plans, it's got to be something simple and understandable,
:19:12. > :19:17.a new fiscal rule that takes the issue of the table. That was David
:19:17. > :19:19.Miliband's speech that he never gave? It's a fundamental thing. The
:19:19. > :19:26.danger for Labour is to get trapped in the economics. The next election
:19:26. > :19:32.will be based on values. Labour's biggest problem is a pass to stand
:19:32. > :19:34.for the values of... Stop saying Middle Britain, they've got to
:19:34. > :19:38.stand up for middle-class people. They are going to get a bad ride
:19:38. > :19:43.from this government. If Labour becomes the party of the middle
:19:43. > :19:46.classes, they can win in 2015. Shouldn't Ed Miliband now deliver
:19:46. > :19:52.the David Miliband speech that was never delivered? Did you follow
:19:52. > :19:57.that, I almost got lost. He is not David Miliband, he delivers his own
:19:57. > :20:01.speeches. It was a good speech from David Miliband. If David Miliband
:20:01. > :20:07.had won that leadership, he would have delivered that speech. Ed
:20:07. > :20:13.earth is his own man, and he will deliver his own speech. As tough as
:20:13. > :20:17.it is, especially Labour in opposition... Were you aware,
:20:17. > :20:25.working in Downing Street, that in the throes of the worst terrorist
:20:25. > :20:28.attack experienced by this country that Ed Balls and Ed Miliband were
:20:28. > :20:34.trying to get rid of your leader? No one in Downing Street would be
:20:34. > :20:40.surprised by those memos. If only he had governed by his memos,
:20:40. > :20:48.rather than the way that he did. only the spelling of our political
:20:48. > :20:54.leaders was better. They have presided over the education system
:20:54. > :20:59.and a. It is two-finger typing. wasn't just his spelling either.
:20:59. > :21:02.was educated in Scotland, my spelling is rather good. Back in
:21:02. > :21:07.the good old days! Or all of you would bad spelling, see us
:21:07. > :21:13.afterwards. The grave situation in Syria is
:21:13. > :21:18.leading to increasing calls for... Lino... For Britain to intervene.
:21:18. > :21:22.Is it the right course of action when NATO seems to be increasingly
:21:22. > :21:26.bombed -- bogged down in Libya. The campaign appears, from the outside,
:21:26. > :21:36.to have reached something of a stalemate. Is it going to be
:21:36. > :21:39.
:21:39. > :21:43.successful and how long will Senator Bourdais, more than 10,000
:21:43. > :21:50.flying missions and hundreds of tanks, munition dumps and control
:21:50. > :21:55.centres destroyed. -- 74 days. And yet, at least nominally, Colonel
:21:55. > :22:01.Gaddafi remains in power in Libya. The NATO mission in Libya has three
:22:01. > :22:04.main aims. To stop the regime of maintaining arms, protect civilians
:22:04. > :22:08.and enforce a no-fly zone. In reality, there is a 4th aim. To do
:22:08. > :22:14.what the opposition wants and rid the country of its leader. How
:22:14. > :22:17.close are we to toppling Gaddafi? think at the moment we would be
:22:17. > :22:21.lucky if Gaddafi disappeared quickly. We would be lucky if he
:22:21. > :22:24.disappeared because we would basically have to hit him with a
:22:24. > :22:28.missile, he would have to be in one of the command centres which was
:22:28. > :22:31.struck. If I was a betting man, I wouldn't bet a lot of money, but
:22:31. > :22:35.I'd bet the stalemate would continue for some time to come.
:22:35. > :22:39.the chances are that Gaddafi is going to be around for a while.
:22:39. > :22:44.However tempting it might be, pursuing by any means necessary
:22:44. > :22:48.policy is not an option. If Gaddafi is actively commanding troops, if
:22:48. > :22:52.he's in a command centre and killed by a missile, I suppose that
:22:52. > :22:55.something which might be a legitimate act of war. But to set
:22:55. > :23:00.out to assassinate him, I think, would be dangerous. It's something
:23:00. > :23:03.that I would be morally very uncomfortable with. According to a
:23:03. > :23:07.former British ambassador to Libya, one that was in the country very
:23:07. > :23:13.recently, the NATO strategy may be slow but it is what is wanted on
:23:13. > :23:18.the ground. More of the same was the message that I was given in
:23:18. > :23:23.Benghazi when I asked them what we should be doing next. That was a
:23:23. > :23:28.few weeks ago. But I believe that is still the message we are getting.
:23:28. > :23:32.I would say that progress is slow and steady. It's slow, but the
:23:32. > :23:37.strategy is working. In conflict, you can't be sure what is going to
:23:37. > :23:41.happen. But I feel confident that with his right to continue.
:23:41. > :23:46.According to some, it's a long game, not just the fate of one man, that
:23:46. > :23:49.really matters. I believe we should be in that region for a very long
:23:49. > :23:52.time. It's the edge of the Mediterranean, the edge of Europe.
:23:53. > :23:55.If they become more politically stable, if their economy develops,
:23:55. > :23:59.it's good for us, it's good for them and it's something we could be
:23:59. > :24:03.deeply proud of. It could be one of our great contributions for a
:24:03. > :24:07.generation. What we mustn't do is get so impatient at the turn us all
:24:07. > :24:11.into a military issue. For these protesters outside the Libyan
:24:11. > :24:13.embassy in London, change can't come too soon. For the rest of the
:24:13. > :24:16.world, it's not about getting Gaddafi, it's about getting it
:24:16. > :24:20.right. We are joined now by the Libyan
:24:20. > :24:25.historian and author of Dr Faraj Najem, who has links with the anti-
:24:25. > :24:29.Gaddafi forces. Max Hastings is still with us, with his expertise.
:24:29. > :24:35.First of all, let's start the way we always start. You've got family
:24:35. > :24:40.there. What is your update from the ground? Well, the news I am getting,
:24:40. > :24:46.as recent as yesterday, it's very horrific. Gaddafi is using what
:24:46. > :24:52.they call it weapon of mass destruction, gang rape. He is
:24:52. > :25:01.turning against the women of those about opposing him. The stories are
:25:01. > :25:06.too graphic to tell your audience. We have heard from Luis Moreno Camp
:25:06. > :25:12.Hope, talking about Viagra being distributed to Gaddafi forces. The
:25:12. > :25:16.Libyan government says it has repulsed an attempt by Libyan
:25:16. > :25:22.rebels to take Zawiya. If they are making strategic gains like that,
:25:22. > :25:28.then does that mean that your forces, the forces that are
:25:28. > :25:32.fighting commander the losing side? Don't forget, Zawiya was supposed
:25:32. > :25:37.to have been neutralised months ago. Yet the people there managed to
:25:37. > :25:42.rise up again and turn against him. It's still a battle, as we speak,
:25:42. > :25:46.they are still fighting. The forces are coming down from the mountain.
:25:46. > :25:51.Misrata, they managed to push them out of the city. They are making
:25:51. > :25:55.some gains. The noose is tightening around his neck. Do you want more
:25:55. > :25:58.than airstrikes? I think we need to arm the opposition. We need to
:25:58. > :26:02.allow them to protect their own civilians. They are the ones that
:26:02. > :26:07.are just basically taking the arms from Gaddafi's Security Brigades
:26:07. > :26:11.and trying to push them back. bring in Max Hastings. You can't
:26:11. > :26:14.just win this with air strikes alone. I've always thought that the
:26:14. > :26:19.West and the rebels would eventually be successful in getting
:26:19. > :26:23.Gaddafi out. The question is, was it wise for Britain to get so far
:26:23. > :26:28.out in front, almost alone on this? My own scepticism about this wasn't
:26:28. > :26:32.based on any... Gaddafi is obviously a very bad man, the world
:26:32. > :26:36.will be a slightly better place when he goes, that Americans,
:26:36. > :26:41.including senior ones, so that their concerns, their unwillingness
:26:41. > :26:46.to be paid -- tracked into this by David Cameron, it was based on
:26:46. > :26:50.whether we were supporting the cause of freedom or just the weaker
:26:50. > :26:54.side on a Libyan civil war? The intelligence is still very weak. It
:26:54. > :26:59.would be very rash to pre-empt this, but it may be that when Gaddafi
:26:59. > :27:03.goes and I still think he will, we will discover that the Libyans in
:27:03. > :27:08.Tripoli say it is wonderful and get together with the Libyans in
:27:08. > :27:12.Benghazi. With a bit of reluctant assistance from the Americans, we
:27:12. > :27:17.will half a responsibility for sorting out what is likely to be an
:27:17. > :27:21.unholy mess. We will talk about the nature of what is left behind, you
:27:21. > :27:26.say you're sure he will go, how long do you think it will take?
:27:26. > :27:28.can't put a timescale on that. But I don't think this regime can
:27:28. > :27:33.withstand the level of attrition they are taking. It's what happens
:27:33. > :27:38.after they go. It's always been the worry in some of our minds. David
:27:38. > :27:42.Cameron wanted to go and do a good idea to -- good deed, it will be a
:27:42. > :27:48.good deed getting rid of Gaddafi. But if you are going to play grown-
:27:48. > :27:54.up policies, rather than logistics policies, just a strategy, you have
:27:54. > :27:58.to see this through. Make it easier, supply arms, that would make the
:27:58. > :28:07.end come more swiftly? You are skating per to close to the edge of
:28:07. > :28:11.That you are skating close to the UN resolution. What you need is
:28:11. > :28:16.more heavy weapons. People have to be trained to use them. Who is
:28:16. > :28:18.going to do that? We are running out of time. It does seem as if the
:28:18. > :28:28.international community is really saying, right, rebels, it's now up
:28:28. > :28:29.
:28:29. > :28:32.to you? Yes, they are saying it. Benghazi, especially in the east,
:28:32. > :28:35.it's open. The intelligence services are there, the journalists
:28:35. > :28:43.are there and they are clear about what these people are up to. They
:28:43. > :28:47.are really up to a democratic free Libya. This is very clear, we need
:28:47. > :28:51.to get rid of this man who is awful to everyone else. Sorry, we are out