:00:29. > :00:34.Morning, Fox, will come to the Daily Politics. Robin Hood Clegg
:00:34. > :00:40.says he wants to give you the banks, but is it any more than political
:00:40. > :00:43.posturing? He is friends with huskies, we know that, but his any
:00:43. > :00:46.peace in Europe are voting against his Government's policy on the
:00:46. > :00:50.environment. What is the Prime Minister going to do about it?
:00:50. > :00:58.Going Dutch, our students are making big savings by studying
:00:58. > :01:02.abroad. And MPs prepared to vote to ban on wild animals from circuses,
:01:02. > :01:06.but is the centuries of tradition really cruel? The Republic want us,
:01:06. > :01:11.they support us, and we really ought to be listening to the people
:01:11. > :01:16.of vote with their feet. -- the public want us.
:01:16. > :01:19.All of that is coming out in the next half hour. With us for the
:01:19. > :01:25.duration is writer, broadcaster and Labour peer Joan Bakewell. Lovely
:01:25. > :01:29.to have you on the programme. whenever Nick Clegg goes abroad, he
:01:29. > :01:34.makes an announcement! He probably has nothing else to do, idling away
:01:34. > :01:40.hours with journalists on the plane. It seems that is largely unreported
:01:40. > :01:43.trip to Brazil, he did not know he was there, did you? It has inspired
:01:43. > :01:49.the Deputy Prime Minister to launch a scheme which would see shares in
:01:49. > :01:52.the nationalised banks, the Royal Bank and Lloyds, distributed to the
:01:52. > :01:57.taxpayers who bailed them out in the first place. It is not clear
:01:57. > :02:01.how it will go down with the Chancellor, because it seems Mr on
:02:01. > :02:06.Thorn was banking on using the profits of reselling the banks to
:02:06. > :02:11.help improve the public finances. - - Mr Osborne. Here's a thought, cut
:02:11. > :02:16.our taxes before the next election! Do Chancellors do that? It comes
:02:16. > :02:23.from an idea that was put forward originally by Lib Dem MP Stephen
:02:23. > :02:29.Williams, who joins us now. Welcome. Hello! Let me just clarify this, is
:02:29. > :02:33.it an official Lib Dem policy to do this, but not yet coalition policy?
:02:33. > :02:38.It is not officially Lib Dem policy yet until our party conference
:02:38. > :02:42.discusses it, because that is the way we make policy, but it has been
:02:42. > :02:45.pretty well endorsed by everyone who matters in the party from the
:02:45. > :02:50.Deputy Prime Minister down. You may remember, Andrew, I launched this
:02:50. > :02:54.pamphlet on your programme back in March. It is an idea that has been
:02:54. > :02:58.gathering momentum. Even John Redwood, who was on television this
:02:58. > :03:02.morning, said he was in broad support. Is it an idea whose time
:03:02. > :03:06.has come? I think so, and more people are coming on board when
:03:06. > :03:16.they see it is popular. There are not many people who I have spoken
:03:16. > :03:18.
:03:18. > :03:23.to in the last six months who, after the conversation, say, no, I
:03:23. > :03:25.don't like that. It is popular, and it makes a clear link between the
:03:25. > :03:30.nationalisation of the banks and the benefit when they return to
:03:30. > :03:33.profitability in the near future. That is interesting. You think the
:03:33. > :03:37.banks are ready to return to the private sector? I think the
:03:37. > :03:41.preparations need to be made now for when they are ready. The share
:03:41. > :03:45.prices are still pretty much in the debt. Yes, but those share prices
:03:45. > :03:49.are probably artificially depressed at the moment because there is no
:03:49. > :03:53.real knowledge of expectation as to what the government is going to do
:03:53. > :03:57.with the two enormous holdings that it has in these banks. Once the
:03:57. > :04:02.Government makes its intentions clear, at the share prices will
:04:02. > :04:08.rally to some extent, but the main driver is the profitability of the
:04:08. > :04:12.banks themselves. Do you really want to lumber all of us with bank
:04:12. > :04:16.shares just on the brink of a European sovereign debt crisis?
:04:16. > :04:20.These banks have balance sheets full of a new toxic waste called
:04:20. > :04:25.European sovereign debt. We would not be lumbered with them. The
:04:25. > :04:29.state owns these bank shares at the moment, so we have already got them.
:04:29. > :04:34.I mean the individuals. Treasury would only dispose of
:04:34. > :04:38.these shares when either it knows it can do so at a profit in terms
:04:39. > :04:42.of a normal privatisation that you and I will remember from the
:04:42. > :04:46.Thatcher and John Major era, all to do it in his rather more
:04:46. > :04:49.imaginative way, where every citizen gets the benefit. We can
:04:49. > :04:53.only do it when the market conditions are right. We are not
:04:53. > :04:57.there yet, but we must be optimistic that both are these
:04:57. > :05:00.banks, which have been saved by the taxpayer, they have been in
:05:00. > :05:05.intensive care, and pretty soon they will be ready to return to the
:05:05. > :05:10.private sector, which is where they belong. I want to do that in a way
:05:10. > :05:15.in which everyone can benefit. quick questions before I get our
:05:15. > :05:19.guest's reaction. You say it is not yet Lib Dem policy, but the
:05:19. > :05:24.manifesto policy was, we will turn Northern Rock into a building
:05:24. > :05:28.society. You did not get away on that, did you? We will have to wait
:05:28. > :05:32.and see what happens. It has been privatised. It may well be sold to
:05:32. > :05:37.an existing building society, of course. There are many options.
:05:37. > :05:42.Unlikely. Let me ask you this. Who would get these shares? Every
:05:42. > :05:46.citizen? That is the model I have proposed. How would we do find
:05:46. > :05:52.that? If your name is on the electoral roll? That is the way I
:05:52. > :05:56.suggested. Electro role has more holes than a Swiss cheese. -- the
:05:56. > :06:01.electoral roll. I would say it is pretty robust. There would have to
:06:01. > :06:09.be some clean-up operations. Students and MPs would get two sets
:06:09. > :06:14.of shares! I think we would be caught out! There Ahsan is used
:06:14. > :06:18.with the Elektra Register, but it remains the only complete dataset
:06:18. > :06:22.of all 46 million adults in the UK. -- there our son is used with the
:06:22. > :06:28.collector of register. What do you think? I think it is a bit of a
:06:28. > :06:32.gimmick. A gimmick! Offer people �1,000, they are going to like it,
:06:32. > :06:36.they are going to be very pleased with it. If it is every citizen,
:06:36. > :06:42.that includes people who do not pay taxes, and there is already lots of
:06:42. > :06:48.talk about people saying, you mean people who do not pay taxes are
:06:48. > :06:53.going to get his bonus, too? Also, we already Tony Banks, don't we?
:06:53. > :06:57.Isn't that the point of the purchase? -- owned by the banks.
:06:57. > :07:02.What they are doing is making us into shareholders and privatising
:07:02. > :07:04.the banks by giving us the money. I think we should all get together as
:07:04. > :07:09.shareholders, go to the shareholders' meeting and vote down
:07:09. > :07:15.the bonuses and the pay of the chief executive. That would be a
:07:15. > :07:19.case of doing it. Stephen Williams, keeps in touch with us. OK.
:07:19. > :07:23.regard the Daily Politics as your outlet for taking this debate on!
:07:24. > :07:30.That is very kind of you. Now, the government is committed to
:07:31. > :07:34.increasing our target for reducing CO2 emissions from 20% down to 30%
:07:34. > :07:38.by 2020, which is far enough in the future of one of the current bunch
:07:38. > :07:42.to be held accountable if it does that happen. But it will not apply
:07:42. > :07:49.to the heart head generated in this studio, which is preserved by
:07:49. > :07:53.national statute. -- hot air. Some MEPs are planning to vote against
:07:53. > :07:57.the Government's policy today. Anita has the details. I will do my
:07:57. > :08:01.best to explain. You are right, David Cameron has repeatedly said
:08:01. > :08:05.he wants the commission to be the greenest government ever, so in his
:08:05. > :08:12.bunny hugging coalition agreement, he said he wanted to raise the EU
:08:12. > :08:15.carbon cutting target from 20% up to 30% by 2020. Today, there is
:08:15. > :08:20.this non-binding European Parliament vote that calls for the
:08:20. > :08:23.target to be raised. All well and good, not really, because the
:08:23. > :08:27.Conservative MEPs are threatening to blow smoke all over the Prime
:08:27. > :08:31.Minister's green credentials by voting against raising the target.
:08:31. > :08:35.Led by Martin Callanan, they say a higher target would harm business,
:08:35. > :08:39.and that any unilateral action would put Europe at a competitive
:08:39. > :08:42.disadvantage to rivals like China. Martin Callanan is also not
:08:42. > :08:47.particularly bothered by the coalition's flower-power, sharing
:08:47. > :08:51.agreement, saying, we are not in coalition with the Lib Dems in the
:08:51. > :08:56.European Parliament. At PMQs, Mr Cameron reiterated that he was
:08:56. > :09:02.committed to the 30% target, and in his words, nothing is going to
:09:02. > :09:06.change that. He added, I will work on my any pace. So the question
:09:06. > :09:12.today is, do those MEPs feel a little bit like they have been work
:09:12. > :09:16.done? Andrew is going to find out. It is a very good question. We
:09:16. > :09:19.asked for a minister to defend the Government's support for this 30%
:09:19. > :09:24.target, but strangely none was available. We are delighted to be
:09:24. > :09:28.joined from Brussels by a Conservative MEP Roger Helmer, and
:09:28. > :09:32.in the studio in Westminster we have Liberal Democrat MP Duncan
:09:32. > :09:37.Hames. Well can do both. Roger Helmer, are you voting against
:09:37. > :09:42.these targets because you think they are economically damaging or
:09:42. > :09:45.because you do not think Climate Change Act is such a big deal?
:09:45. > :09:50.you may be surprised that I am voting against them because I think
:09:50. > :09:54.they are bad for the environment. These proposals do not make sense
:09:54. > :09:59.in economic or environmental terms. They will simply drive jobs,
:09:59. > :10:03.production and investment out of the EU entirely, and into other
:10:03. > :10:07.jurisdictions with lower standards. Instead of one tonne of CO2 in
:10:07. > :10:12.Britain, you would get two tonnes in China. I cannot see how that is
:10:12. > :10:16.any good for the environment or for anybody except the Chinese. Duncan
:10:16. > :10:20.Hames, there is a trend for heavy industry to leave Europe and go to
:10:20. > :10:23.the emerging markets. If you put on these heavy targets which will
:10:23. > :10:28.raise the cost of doing business here, you simply reinforce that
:10:28. > :10:30.trend. Well, he is way behind the curve in this debate if he does not
:10:30. > :10:36.think China is trying to reduce the carpet intensity of its own
:10:36. > :10:40.economic activity. But not a 30% target like ours, they open a new
:10:40. > :10:44.coalmine every week. We need to make sure we have the jobs which
:10:44. > :10:48.will be sustainable in the future. What you say to his point that jobs
:10:48. > :10:50.would go? The Tory position in Europe has more to do with the fact
:10:50. > :10:55.that their only friends in the European Parliament are a right-
:10:55. > :10:58.wing Polish party who are worried about their jobs. He is putting
:10:58. > :11:04.their interests ahead of British economic policy, which is
:11:04. > :11:08.astounding. Lay the ball, not the man. Never mind his Polish allies,
:11:08. > :11:14.answer his question. If you make these targets to strike, stricter
:11:14. > :11:17.than anybody else, as ours are at 30%, we will lose jobs to the
:11:17. > :11:20.emerging markets. What is the counter argument, that is all I'm
:11:20. > :11:24.asking. The whole point of negotiations across Europe is to
:11:24. > :11:28.ensure that within a larger economic bloc, there is a level
:11:28. > :11:35.playing field. That is why we are working with you on a common target.
:11:35. > :11:39.That is why we are trying to work internationally, and frankly to say
:11:39. > :11:43.that we should not take part in international agreements, that we
:11:43. > :11:52.should sign with whoever the lifeguards in this debate is not
:11:52. > :11:57.really in the interests of our We in Britain now have this tougher
:11:57. > :12:00.target of 30%, when it at least makes sense to get a level playing
:12:00. > :12:08.field if we went along with the rest of Europe having that targets,
:12:08. > :12:11.too? Well, the whole idea of a 30% target is, of course, absurd. The
:12:11. > :12:15.Liberal Democrat wants to lead on this issue, but nobody else is
:12:15. > :12:18.following. I'm not voting to be nice to our Polish colleagues,
:12:18. > :12:24.although I'm happy to be nice to them. I'm voting for a common sense
:12:24. > :12:27.policy in Britain. What is the answer to my question? If you would
:12:27. > :12:32.stop playing the man and start playing the ball, what is the
:12:32. > :12:36.answer to my point? We have got this very tough standard, so it
:12:36. > :12:41.would be helpful if the rest of Europe had a tough standard as well.
:12:41. > :12:44.Well, some of my colleagues would be prepared to vote for 30% if the
:12:44. > :12:50.rest of the world went for it. But the rest of the world is not going
:12:50. > :12:53.for 30%. We should not have 30%. We will not be able to deliver, and
:12:53. > :12:57.the sooner that the coalition government recognises that its
:12:57. > :13:02.policies do not make sense, do not do any good for the environment and
:13:02. > :13:05.are damaging the economy and are going to force homers into fuel
:13:06. > :13:09.poverty, pensioners will literally die because of what we are doing in
:13:09. > :13:13.terms of bringing policies. This whole programme needs to be
:13:13. > :13:19.reviewed. There is a growing head of steam, both within Brussels and
:13:19. > :13:24.in Westminster, to look at it again. We cannot go on with this folly.
:13:24. > :13:28.a time when fuel prices are rising rapidly, we have just seen huge
:13:28. > :13:31.increases with Scottish Power, and we also know that the poorer you
:13:31. > :13:37.are, the more of your income you have to spend on fuel as well as
:13:37. > :13:41.food, does it make sense for greens like you to be having the fuel
:13:41. > :13:45.bills of ordinary people who are struggling to afford it? You're
:13:45. > :13:49.already adding �200 on to the average fuel bill with these
:13:49. > :13:54.policies. Prices are rising in line with the oil price, and what we
:13:54. > :13:58.need for those people is to get energy bills off the fossil fuel
:13:58. > :14:02.them. Even if prices keep going up, we can get energy bills down
:14:02. > :14:06.through measures such as the Green deal, which we are putting through
:14:06. > :14:12.Parliament at this moment. I will repeat this again. Energy bills are
:14:12. > :14:16.already rising because of world oil and gas prices, and because nuclear
:14:16. > :14:23.power is in retreat at the moment. You are increasing that rise. It is
:14:23. > :14:27.rising even more because of your green policies. Well, it is. It all
:14:27. > :14:31.depends on the oil price level. make electricity companies by twice
:14:31. > :14:36.the market rate for onshore wind power, three times for offshore. Is
:14:36. > :14:39.it fair to poor people that you are increasing their bills in that way?
:14:39. > :14:44.What is there for poorer people is the Green deal on energy, which
:14:44. > :14:48.will ensure that we reduce energy consumption and their energy bills.
:14:48. > :14:51.Whilst we cannot control prices, we can work to reduce people's bills,
:14:51. > :14:56.which addresses the very concerns about fuel poverty which you quite
:14:56. > :15:00.reasonably raised. There is no sign that bills will fall and the future.
:15:01. > :15:05.Under this measure, they will rise. Not if we do not get them off the
:15:05. > :15:10.oil crisis. Nothing you are doing well do that. The Prime Minister
:15:10. > :15:18.said he would work a new, have you been worked over? -- he would work
:15:18. > :15:22.We haven't been worked over. I have heard nothing from London. As far
:15:22. > :15:28.as I know, my colleagues haven't. see. There's been no pressure. Can
:15:28. > :15:35.I go back on that last point? Andrew, you were right about wind
:15:35. > :15:39.power. It is disingenuous to say prices for electricity are lining
:15:39. > :15:45.with the oil price. No, they are not. They are rising much higher.
:15:45. > :15:50.All right. A lot of old people die from the cold in winter? There are
:15:50. > :15:57.a lot of other ways of keeping people alive rather than juggling
:15:57. > :16:02.oil prices. Quite clearly, the Green Agenda is a long-term agenda.
:16:02. > :16:05.To be dicing around with short-term consequences as a way of blocking
:16:06. > :16:10.the long-term engagement is folly. We have to take on the long-term
:16:10. > :16:16.issues. Is it right to be increasing the fuel bills of the
:16:16. > :16:21.old and poor at a time when their fuel bills are already rising?
:16:21. > :16:31.way to tackle that is to deal with the problems of the old and poor
:16:31. > :16:33.
:16:33. > :16:38.which after all caused many other remedies too. Other people can bear
:16:38. > :16:43.the burden who can afford it. you for that. Give us a call if the
:16:43. > :16:49.Prime Minister threatens you at any stage. I will let you know! Thank
:16:49. > :16:54.you. Now, here is a question: Why spend �9,000 an English university
:16:54. > :16:59.Ze agree when you can get a cheaper degree somewhere else in Europe? --
:16:59. > :17:07.degree when you can get a cheaper degree somewhere else in Europe?
:17:07. > :17:10.The University of Groningen is a particularly popular destination
:17:10. > :17:15.for British students where numbers have increased from a handful a few
:17:15. > :17:22.years ago to more than 100 thousand-of-this year. Paul Henley
:17:22. > :17:25.sampled the student life -- 100,000 this year. Paul Henley sampled the
:17:25. > :17:32.student life. Choosing to study abroad doesn't necessarily mean you
:17:32. > :17:39.have to give up the familiar comfort of a student night out.
:17:39. > :17:44.This man is finishing his first year at Groningen University. He is
:17:44. > :17:49.from St Albans. At a Dutch student comedy night with his friends and
:17:49. > :17:54.flatmates, some of the jokes might be lost in translation. I'll take
:17:54. > :17:58.care of the booze, lady! A few pints probably help. LAUGHTER
:17:58. > :18:01.Netherlands is one of the few places in Europe you can study
:18:01. > :18:08.entirely in English and get by in daily life without the local
:18:08. > :18:14.language. And you can live quite cheaply here. Welcome to my humble
:18:14. > :18:18.abode. He shares a big flat with three other students paying just
:18:18. > :18:22.over �400 a month. This is Adrian's corner! He missed his A-level grade
:18:22. > :18:26.force the university he wanted in the UK, heard about the Dutch
:18:26. > :18:30.option and realised he was on to a winner, even if it meant being a
:18:30. > :18:36.pioneer. It feels unique, it feels like I am doing some independent.
:18:36. > :18:40.Groningen is in the top 150 of most university world rankings,
:18:40. > :18:44.somewhere on a par with Liverpool or Leeds in the UK. Once you know
:18:44. > :18:52.the facts, it seems less a question of why study in the Netherlands
:18:52. > :18:57.than why not? His annual tuition fee of �1,500 sounds good compared
:18:57. > :19:00.to the �9,000 in the UK. It sounds better when you know he can claim
:19:00. > :19:06.it back from the Dutch government. If he works eight hours a week, he
:19:06. > :19:11.can also get a grant of �250 a month and free rail travel anywhere
:19:11. > :19:17.in the country. That is out of gratitude, he's chosen to have
:19:17. > :19:23.Dutch lessons. Dutch universities aren't part of the British UCAS
:19:23. > :19:26.system yet but they are working on it and applying doesn't sound
:19:26. > :19:33.complicated. You contact us through the website. If A-levels are
:19:33. > :19:38.sufficient, you are admitted. higher education might still be an
:19:38. > :19:42.unusual one for a British person, but maybe not for long. I would
:19:42. > :19:47.recommend it. Surprised more people haven't come here. Joan Bakewell is
:19:47. > :19:51.still with us. Norman Tebbit did say "get on your bike" but he
:19:51. > :19:56.didn't mean sending some of our brightest people to the Netherlands.
:19:56. > :20:00.What do you make of it? I think it is a wonderful idea. The more
:20:00. > :20:04.students across Europe that go to each other's universities the more
:20:04. > :20:10.we will understand each other. I think it will be wonderful. Getting
:20:10. > :20:15.on your bike will be perfect for Amsterdam. Won't it be one-way
:20:15. > :20:20.traffic? If they can get an education for free, or very
:20:20. > :20:25.subsidised, we are charging �9,000 a year, who is going to come here?
:20:25. > :20:31.Well, there are lots of people now among our student body who want to
:20:31. > :20:36.go to universities who might well find a better niche abroad. I think
:20:36. > :20:39.that would be to spread the culture. I mean, we have too many students
:20:39. > :20:44.really than our universities can take. I think that would be a
:20:44. > :20:47.terrific way of spreading the load and bringing other students here
:20:47. > :20:51.who might be specialists in particular subjects which we are
:20:51. > :20:56.particularly good. Specialists or rich? Doesn't the matter of tuition
:20:56. > :21:00.fees going up - we have had that argument many times. Does it mean
:21:00. > :21:06.we are the bastions for rich people's education? That is so. So
:21:06. > :21:09.we do have a two tier system. So let the market decide. Let the
:21:09. > :21:14.students go abroad and see that they get a good education for less
:21:14. > :21:17.and if we believe in a market economy, it should come right.
:21:17. > :21:21.the market decide? If the market decides and there are numerous
:21:21. > :21:26.courses which will no longer be offered in this country because the
:21:26. > :21:29.market says you don't earn that much when you do them, and you are
:21:29. > :21:32.not... You don't have to pay back your student loan of course. You
:21:32. > :21:36.only pay back your student loan when you have made a good living
:21:36. > :21:40.out of having the degree. You are comfortable with the fact there is
:21:40. > :21:44.not an even playing field in Europe? I'm - that is an
:21:44. > :21:51.abstraction. I like the idea of a lot of young people going to each
:21:51. > :21:55.other's country to study. Before any of you start tweeting,
:21:55. > :22:00.we are aware that European students do not pay fees at Scottish
:22:00. > :22:06.universities. Before you start tweeting further, we are aware that
:22:07. > :22:15.English students do pay fees at Scottish universities. When it
:22:15. > :22:18.comes to plates, you keep spinning them. A circus cliche? Yes, but
:22:18. > :22:24.this story is about circuses. A cross-party group of MPs will
:22:24. > :22:27.attempt to change the law banning the use of wild animals in circuses
:22:28. > :22:32.in England. Yes, only England. It is Westminster. It's a practice
:22:32. > :22:36.they believe to be cruel. The Government prefers a licensing
:22:36. > :22:40.regime and as Adam Fleming discovered, circuses that use lions,
:22:40. > :22:44.tigers and elephants, they vigorously defend the practice.
:22:44. > :22:51.Recently pitched up in this field in Surrey, the Great British Circus,
:22:51. > :22:56.its owner is one of the few who still keeps wild animals. General
:22:56. > :22:59.Motors has gone bust and I am still here. The public want us. They
:22:59. > :23:05.support us. We really ought to be listening to the people who vote
:23:05. > :23:10.with their feet. The punters here do seem happy. Mostly. I can see
:23:10. > :23:19.both sides but as long as everything is by the book, it's
:23:19. > :23:22.fair. I do like to see animals in the wild. I love the animals.
:23:22. > :23:27.Martin wouldn't allow our cameras behind-the-scenes but he showed me
:23:27. > :23:31.where the animals were kept. Back there, there are five tigers,
:23:31. > :23:35.camels, llamas, even some reindeer. They are all in cages, some of them
:23:35. > :23:39.with electric fences, but they have all got shade and water and to this
:23:39. > :23:44.untrained eye they didn't look unhealthy. That won't reassure
:23:44. > :23:49.concerned MPs and campaigners who say this amounts to mistreatment.
:23:49. > :23:53.And nowadays protesters are as much a part of circus life as clowns and
:23:53. > :23:57.candy floss. They point to secret filming like this from earlier this
:23:57. > :24:01.year, an elephant called Ann from another zoo. The courts are daily
:24:01. > :24:06.full of pet owners who don't care for their animals properly. Since
:24:06. > :24:10.1932, there have been seven cases of mistreatment of animals, seven.
:24:10. > :24:15.Seven too many, but compared with the rest of the animal-keeping
:24:15. > :24:18.world, it is not a bad record. These horses are domesticated so
:24:18. > :24:22.don't count as wild animals. The Government's preferred solution to
:24:22. > :24:28.all this is a new system of licences, but that is not enough
:24:28. > :24:32.for the backbenchers pushing for a total ban. Welcome to big tent
:24:32. > :24:36.politics. See what he did there? We are
:24:36. > :24:43.joined by the Conservative MP Mark Pritchard who wants to see a ban on
:24:43. > :24:49.the use of non-domestic animals in circuses. There seems to be a
:24:49. > :24:53.three-line whip out to block your move. Why? That is something for
:24:53. > :24:59.the Whip's Office. I am rather surprised. 92% of the public want
:25:00. > :25:05.to see a ban on wild animals in circuses, 64% of MPs said they want
:25:05. > :25:09.to see a ban. An Early Day Motion has attracted over 200 MPs. It is
:25:09. > :25:15.in the top ten of Early Day Motions. There is wide support for a ban,
:25:15. > :25:22.not only in Parliament, but also outside of Parliament. In view of
:25:22. > :25:27.that level of support, why would your leader want to thwart your
:25:27. > :25:30.ambition? I have seen some of the rumour mill on the blogs, I'm not
:25:30. > :25:34.going to comment on conversations I may or may not have had with
:25:34. > :25:41.officials from Number Ten. A lot of colleagues have telephoned me this
:25:41. > :25:44.morning and say they are rather perplexed why Number Ten have taken
:25:44. > :25:48.a personal interest in this. The Government is very busy given we
:25:48. > :25:53.are at war in two places, we have a public deficit to deal with, and
:25:53. > :25:58.yet they are applying a three-line whip on the ban, the use of wild
:25:58. > :26:02.animals in circuses. Have you been told Mark, get into line here?
:26:02. > :26:07.not going to comment on what conversations I may or may not have
:26:07. > :26:11.had. Yes, then? I get calls from all sorts of people in different
:26:11. > :26:15.parts of the party all of the time. That is a question perhaps you need
:26:15. > :26:21.to put to Number Ten. All I do know is that there's wide support for
:26:21. > :26:25.this ban. I'm very perplexed why there's been a three-line whip put
:26:25. > :26:31.on my motion. The Government tabled an amendment to my motion which
:26:31. > :26:36.wouldn't bring aboutliness Let's talk about the amendment. What does
:26:36. > :26:40.the amendment suggest? What is the Government's plan? I have had my
:26:40. > :26:45.run-ins with Mr Speaker as Andrew knows. I have to put on record here
:26:45. > :26:49.today on live television Mr Speaker has once again proven that he is a
:26:49. > :26:51.champion for Parliament and a champion for the backbenchers.
:26:51. > :26:56.Despite the fact 44 Members of Parliament signed the amendment
:26:56. > :27:03.which would have blocked my motion being voted upon, the speaker has
:27:03. > :27:13.not selected that amendment. It was a Government amendment Theyskens'
:27:13. > :27:19.Theory got to 44 MPs. That is -- amendment which they got to 44 MPs
:27:19. > :27:22.to sign. Forget about the mechanics. I won't ask you again. But in such
:27:22. > :27:26.an important time in Parliament, what is the argument that is being
:27:26. > :27:30.put forward by those who seek to thwart you as to why they are
:27:30. > :27:35.trying to thwart you? I will answer that. I will address the licensing
:27:35. > :27:41.point. The proposal is a licence of circuses. The problem is it will
:27:41. > :27:45.give a green light for an import of a new generation of animals so
:27:45. > :27:50.tigers, elephants, lions, zebras and camels. However well they may
:27:50. > :27:54.or may not be treated, the fact is they are travelling all the time in
:27:54. > :27:59.very cramped conditions, both housed and transported in cramped
:27:59. > :28:04.conditions. I want to see an end to that. You don't know why they are
:28:04. > :28:14.thwarting you? The Government is saying, the statement on 19th May,
:28:14. > :28:14.
:28:14. > :28:19.the parliamentary secretary came along and told the House, the fact
:28:19. > :28:23.is the Government is saying that European Services Directive is
:28:23. > :28:29.being breached, it is not. Thank you very much. A quick comment from
:28:29. > :28:32.you? Circuses have moved on. The most successful circuses rely on
:28:32. > :28:40.the brilliant ability of trapeze artists and that is what we want to
:28:40. > :28:45.see. Thank you. Beware of the revenge of the clowns! The Guess
:28:45. > :28:52.The Year - 1961, the year of the Bay of Pigs. You have to pick a