29/06/2011

:00:24. > :00:30.Good morning, folks. Welcome to the Daily Politics. We have had the

:00:30. > :00:34.rethink on sentencing, but his Ken Clarke's Bill still too soft on

:00:34. > :00:37.criminals and too hard on those wanting justice? Protests on the

:00:37. > :00:42.streets of Athens as Greek MPs prepare to vote on the austerity

:00:42. > :00:48.package. Are we will bring you the latest, live. The Argentines had

:00:48. > :00:53.been ramping up the rhetoric of what they call Las Malvinas. We

:00:53. > :00:57.will be asking a Falklands MP how worried he is. And Blur drummer

:00:57. > :01:01.David Rowntree is going to be telling us why the Government's

:01:01. > :01:05.housing changes could do more harm than good. A government argues they

:01:05. > :01:08.can move into shared properties, but there are not properties

:01:08. > :01:18.available. For vulnerable people to move into shared accommodation with

:01:18. > :01:19.

:01:19. > :01:23.All of that coming up in the next hour and a half. And, of course,

:01:23. > :01:28.Prime Ministers questions. For the duration we have a top team. For

:01:28. > :01:33.the Conservatives we have police and Justice Minister Nick Herbert.

:01:33. > :01:36.From Labour, the Shadow Leader of the House, Hilary Benn. Welcome to

:01:36. > :01:40.you both. There seems little prospect that

:01:40. > :01:45.tomorrow's strikes by public sector workers can be averted. Just as

:01:45. > :01:48.well that Tory MP didn't take that better, otherwise he would be out.

:01:48. > :01:52.Teachers in England and Wales and civil servants across the UK are

:01:52. > :01:57.due to walk out in a dispute over pensions. Among them, in Grecians

:01:57. > :02:01.and customs staff, the ones that allowed him the Islamic extremist

:02:01. > :02:05.who was banned from this country. UK Border Agency has advised

:02:05. > :02:10.travellers not to fly tomorrow. The Labour leader has spoken out

:02:10. > :02:13.against the action, calling on both sides to continue to negotiate as

:02:14. > :02:20.opposition leaders usually do we aim these circumstances. Will you

:02:20. > :02:23.be crossing a picket line tomorrow? I shall be at work. I think while

:02:23. > :02:28.negotiations are continuing, the strikes are a mistake. But the

:02:28. > :02:32.Government has handled this really badly. For tell him how. Pensions

:02:32. > :02:39.are really important to a lot of people. You've got to negotiate.

:02:39. > :02:43.It's no good pre-empting Lord Hutton's report. It's absolutely

:02:43. > :02:46.not clear in relation to teachers' pensions whether what you are sick

:02:46. > :02:49.-- seeking to do is about deficit- reduction or an issue with the

:02:49. > :02:53.affordability of the scheme. Ministers have repeatedly refused

:02:53. > :02:58.to answer the question. Maybe you would like a shot at answering a?

:02:58. > :03:02.think he is trying to have it both ways. We are certainly not pre-

:03:02. > :03:06.empting Lord Hutton's report. That is why we asked John Hutton to do

:03:06. > :03:09.this work, to look at the affordability of pensions. Of

:03:09. > :03:12.course people are living longer, that a good thing. But as a

:03:12. > :03:17.consequence, the cost of public sector pensions has risen

:03:17. > :03:20.substantially. It has increased by a third in the last 10 years to

:03:20. > :03:24.well over a �30 billion. We've got to strike a fair balance between

:03:24. > :03:27.the taxpayer and those that are benefiting from schemes. That's why

:03:27. > :03:33.we are saying that we think across the board, in terms of public

:03:33. > :03:39.sector pensions, it is important that we achieve that rebalancing.

:03:39. > :03:45.But the talks continue and that is important. Maybe what Hilary Benn

:03:45. > :03:50.has in mind, neither Frances Maude on the Today Programme or Justine

:03:50. > :03:56.Greening was able to answer it this morning. The Hutton Report shows

:03:56. > :04:01.the cost of public sector pensions as a percentage of GDP going all

:04:01. > :04:05.the way into the future, it actually falls. It falls from now

:04:05. > :04:09.until the end of the graph. So, why cannot be unaffordable if it is

:04:09. > :04:13.falling as a share of national resources? Because people are

:04:13. > :04:18.living longer. But that is factored into the equation. They are living

:04:18. > :04:21.longer and the cost has already risen by a third over the last 10

:04:21. > :04:25.years. You have already seen a situation where there is an

:04:25. > :04:29.existing imbalance over what the taxpayer is paying him and what

:04:29. > :04:34.people are paying themselves. That has widened considerably. But it

:04:34. > :04:41.falls by a third again, just so that there is no confusion, it

:04:41. > :04:44.falls from just shy of 2% of GDP, down to 1.4%. That's about a third.

:04:44. > :04:47.But Lord Hutton looked at the figures and said there was an

:04:47. > :04:51.unfairness that needs to be dealt with. I'm sorry to push she won

:04:51. > :04:56.this, it's quite important. People are going on strike tomorrow. --

:04:56. > :05:00.I'm sorry to push you on this. It shows there is a substantial fall,

:05:00. > :05:04.and there may be other reasons for reforming pensions, even Labour has

:05:04. > :05:09.said there should be some changes, but on the issue of affordability,

:05:09. > :05:14.if it is falling substantially as a percentage of GDP, from now until

:05:15. > :05:19.about 2030, why have you got to do as much as you do? Well, Lord

:05:19. > :05:23.Patten was clear that we had to. That graph is from the Hutton

:05:24. > :05:29.Report. You can't partially quoted him, he also said there was a need

:05:29. > :05:33.to take action. We already have this imbalance. Three-quarters of

:05:33. > :05:35.the workers are not in the public sector. Their taxes have been

:05:35. > :05:38.funding the increase in payments that needs to be made because

:05:38. > :05:42.people are living longer. The tax payer has picked up a bigger share

:05:42. > :05:46.of the burden. It simply to ensure that we have fairness going forward

:05:46. > :05:49.across the board. It's also a question of making sure that we

:05:49. > :05:54.continue to have really good public sector pensions which will be

:05:54. > :05:57.better than those you get in the private sector, that will still be

:05:57. > :06:00.a defined benefit. That's why it's important that the unions continue

:06:00. > :06:04.to sit down and discuss this. I thought there was a general

:06:04. > :06:08.agreement that it needs reform. got around my question by saying

:06:08. > :06:12.that you were going to work, but the common security guards are

:06:12. > :06:16.probably going to go on strike. As you go to the Commons tomorrow,

:06:16. > :06:22.will you cross the picket line? will be standing in the House of

:06:22. > :06:28.Commons at 11:30am tomorrow, asking George Young... So you will? The

:06:28. > :06:32.Labour leader in Wales, the First Minister Carwyn Jones, he has asked

:06:32. > :06:35.Cabinet ministers in Wales not to cross picket lines. He does go on

:06:35. > :06:40.to say that ministers will continue their work across Wales. I don't

:06:40. > :06:44.know how you square that? Well, it's for each individual to take

:06:44. > :06:47.their own decision. In relation to the strikes taking place tomorrow,

:06:47. > :06:51.we have been very clear. While negotiations are continuing,

:06:51. > :06:57.because it is the only way this will be resolved, striking is not

:06:57. > :07:03.the right thing to do. Now, the snappily named legal aid sentencing

:07:03. > :07:08.and punishment of offenders Bill for England and Wales will be

:07:08. > :07:12.debated by MPs this afternoon. It was the scene of a serious road

:07:12. > :07:22.traffic offence last week, Wensum accused the Justice Secretary of

:07:22. > :07:26.performing a skidding U-turn. Anyway, the manoeuvre as they did

:07:26. > :07:31.some, but not all critics. -- placated some.

:07:31. > :07:37.Ken Clarke has done all of the big jobs in government, but he's never

:07:37. > :07:40.faced such a tricky balancing act. On the one hand, he is under orders

:07:40. > :07:44.to reduce the amount of cash we spend on banging people up. But he

:07:44. > :07:48.also has to reduce the number of prisoners, court costs and

:07:48. > :07:52.reoffending. The initial plan to allow prisoners to serve half their

:07:52. > :07:56.sentence if they plead guilty nearly caused a riot on

:07:56. > :08:00.Conservative backbenchers. It led to a hasty rethink of the situation.

:08:00. > :08:07.Then it was announced that house holders would have new rights to

:08:07. > :08:10.defend themselves against intruders. Despite all of that, some of Ken

:08:10. > :08:13.Clarke's right-wing critics are still unsatisfied, concerned that

:08:13. > :08:18.he still wants to scrap indeterminate sentences, hold fewer

:08:18. > :08:21.defendants on remand arm send fewer of those convicted to prison.

:08:21. > :08:27.Britain's solicitors are also uneasy. They are concerned about

:08:27. > :08:30.his other cash saving initiative, cutting �350 million from the legal

:08:30. > :08:38.aid bill, including most civil cases, things like medical

:08:38. > :08:43.negligence. Here is Desmond's -- Desmond had some of the Law Society.

:08:43. > :08:46.It will reduce social cohesion, it will make our society a much less

:08:46. > :08:51.fair place to live. It will close off access to justice for many

:08:51. > :08:55.hundreds of thousands of citizens. The Law Society has put forward a

:08:55. > :08:59.package of cuts worth more than Ken Clarke is looking for, yet he will

:08:59. > :09:03.not engage widows to debate the wisdom, merits or otherwise of

:09:03. > :09:07.those cuts. By the merest coincidence we have the Justice

:09:07. > :09:12.Minister here to talk about such matters. A triumph for our planning

:09:12. > :09:17.department. The first they have had this year! Ken Clarke says it is OK

:09:17. > :09:26.to hit a burglar with a poker and that the all lady can stab and 18

:09:26. > :09:29.year-old. -- an old lady. Can I? Why cannot the old lady do it?

:09:29. > :09:33.old lady cannot stand and 18 year old unless there is reasonable

:09:33. > :09:37.cause. If she wakes up in the middle of the night and there is a

:09:37. > :09:42.burglar in her house, there is a knife by the bed, she stabs him.

:09:42. > :09:48.That is OK now? What we have always said is if a burglar comes into

:09:48. > :09:52.your house, they cross a line. Across a physical line, but in the

:09:52. > :09:56.view of most of the British people, they cross another line as well. We

:09:56. > :10:00.think it is right that people, when they seek to defend themselves,

:10:00. > :10:04.should know that the law is on their side. That they can use force

:10:04. > :10:08.to protect themselves will stop in these circumstances, an old lady

:10:08. > :10:15.can stack and 18 year-old? I'm not sure what circumstances you are

:10:15. > :10:22.saying. -- Stan at an 18 year-old. The law should be on her side if

:10:22. > :10:25.she is trying to defend herself. If it is the person whose home was

:10:25. > :10:28.invaded, when the they were arrested and dealt with idyllic in

:10:28. > :10:33.credit -- an appropriate manner, we want to send a clear message that

:10:33. > :10:39.we expect that the law should be on the side of the law-abiding.

:10:39. > :10:44.these circumstances, can Anita do it? Do what? Stab and 18 year-old

:10:44. > :10:48.that breaks into her home. You just ask it in that fashion. Excuse me,

:10:48. > :10:52.Minister. The Justice Secretary is the one that has given the examples.

:10:52. > :10:57.He's the one that said it's OK to hit a burglar with a poker and for

:10:57. > :11:02.an old lady to stab at 18 year-old. I defer to the Justice Secretary in

:11:02. > :11:05.all things. The law should be on your side, you should be allowed to

:11:05. > :11:12.use force in protecting yourself should somebody coming to your

:11:12. > :11:16.property and put you in fear of... You should leave it at that?

:11:16. > :11:20.intend to clarify that, to make sure, beyond doubt, that the legal

:11:20. > :11:23.position is backing what reasonable people want to see. Can I suggest

:11:24. > :11:33.that you should leave it at that broad definition, and not going to

:11:33. > :11:36.old ladies stabbing 18 year-olds all whacking burglars with pokers?

:11:36. > :11:41.There will be debate as we introduce the measures. There is a

:11:41. > :11:45.strong view in the country that we need to address the balance. I

:11:45. > :11:49.think that the people want to see a clarification. That is what we are

:11:49. > :11:52.seeking to give. Let's move on to another issue with strong views, is

:11:52. > :11:58.is still the Government intention to cut the prison population

:11:58. > :12:04.question not no. The Prime Minister was clear. When he gave his speech

:12:04. > :12:09.and we launched a consultation, the response to the consultation, we

:12:10. > :12:13.said that it was not the ambition to cut their prison population. We

:12:13. > :12:18.need to stabilise at. Ken Clarke has said there are too many people

:12:18. > :12:23.in prison? You can make this point, the rates of reoffending not so

:12:23. > :12:27.high that if you go into prison, an adult offender leaves after a year,

:12:27. > :12:31.half of them are likely to reoffend. It's breaking that cycle. Half of

:12:31. > :12:36.all crime is committed by people that have already been through the

:12:36. > :12:43.criminal justice system. That a problem with what happens after you

:12:43. > :12:47.have been to prison. I don't understand how Ken Clarke can save

:12:47. > :12:52.them are too many people in prison in this country and it is not your

:12:52. > :12:56.intention to cut that? We want to stabilise it. By definition, that

:12:56. > :13:01.would still leave too many. If there is too many, you are going to

:13:02. > :13:04.stabilise it, you will leave too many. The prison population is who

:13:04. > :13:08.the court sent to prison. The important thing is that we deal

:13:08. > :13:12.with the cycle of reoffending. We are putting people in prison, they

:13:12. > :13:16.are not being properly rehabilitated, they are reoffending.

:13:16. > :13:19.Reoffending rates, in some areas, where rising under the previous

:13:19. > :13:23.government because the prisons were so full. But you're not going to

:13:23. > :13:27.cut that? We are looking at purposeful regimes of work in

:13:27. > :13:33.prison, that a drugs treatment to get people off drugs in prison. We

:13:33. > :13:37.are looking at a radical system of payment by results. So we pay

:13:37. > :13:40.people to get prisoners going straight, rather than just walking

:13:40. > :13:44.out of prison and reoffending. All of these things are the right way

:13:44. > :13:47.to reduce the prison population and make the population say they are.

:13:47. > :13:50.Ed Miliband said he was not going to criticise Ken Clarke for being

:13:50. > :13:54.soft on crime when the Tory backbenchers were. Then he said he

:13:54. > :14:00.should be sacked for his comment about rape sentences. What is

:14:00. > :14:02.Labour policy? I think we had just heard it from Nick, about the

:14:02. > :14:09.complete state of confusion that is the Government policy on Criminal

:14:09. > :14:13.Justice. Can we get to your confusion? No, there is no

:14:13. > :14:16.confusion on our part. On the question of reasonable force to

:14:16. > :14:19.defend our homes, the law has been very clear for a long time. It

:14:19. > :14:23.seems to me that what Ken Clarke has said this morning has just

:14:23. > :14:28.created confusion. As your question demonstrated, is the Government's

:14:28. > :14:31.aim today that it is going to change the existing law? Or was Ken

:14:31. > :14:36.Clarke just trying to restate the law? It would be helpful to have an

:14:36. > :14:40.answer. Let's ask the minister. do think Darryl areas where the law

:14:40. > :14:47.itself may need changing. There have been these attempts in the

:14:47. > :14:51.past to give greater clarity. We don't think there has been public

:14:51. > :14:57.confidence that the law is on their side. I think the public do wish to

:14:57. > :15:02.see a change. So the law will be changed? What is Labour's position

:15:02. > :15:06.on sentencing? Did you agree with Ken Clarke's original changes?

:15:06. > :15:10.the 50% reduction, no, we didn't. The Prime Minister forced him to

:15:10. > :15:17.abandon those. But they were fundamentally about trying to save

:15:17. > :15:20.money. We don't agree with the changes to demand. We think it

:15:20. > :15:29.should be left to the courts to decide whether someone should be

:15:29. > :15:35.Do you think in retrospect that the previous government put too many

:15:35. > :15:39.people in jail? No, the courts decide who should go into prison.

:15:39. > :15:45.We made a number of changes including more community penalties.

:15:46. > :15:50.I do believe, as a former prisons minister, if you can improve public

:15:50. > :15:54.confidence in community penalties, we do need to tackle the problems

:15:54. > :15:59.of reoffending. I think when people see people out on community

:15:59. > :16:03.sentences, doing work in the community, that helps to build the

:16:03. > :16:08.confidence. The fundamental truth about our record in government is a

:16:08. > :16:12.crime felled by 43 % after years and years of people saying you can

:16:12. > :16:17.do nothing about crime. That is a very solid record of achievement.

:16:17. > :16:20.The worry now is the government is put in its deficit reduction

:16:20. > :16:26.against protection of the public. We are already seeing signs that

:16:26. > :16:30.the crime rate in London is rising. I think they are in a state of

:16:30. > :16:34.utter confusion and I think they have made a mistake in proposing

:16:34. > :16:40.originally the 50 % reduction and I think they made a mistake on remand

:16:40. > :16:44.sentencing and the changing public perception. People will not forget

:16:44. > :16:51.the fact that Labour mismanaged the prisons in failing to provide

:16:51. > :16:56.enough capacity and you are forced to release 80,000 prisoners early.

:16:56. > :17:01.18 days early. People went on to commit serious offences during that

:17:01. > :17:05.time, including the murder. We have got to get some sense back into the

:17:05. > :17:09.system, the community penalties you talk about have not been rigorous

:17:09. > :17:15.enough and that is one of the reasons why there is a drift of

:17:15. > :17:20.people into prison sentences. We have got to reform the system and

:17:20. > :17:25.do so in a sensible there -- a sensible way which focuses on

:17:25. > :17:28.reoffending. We have to leave there. Thank you.

:17:28. > :17:31.There has been some pretty fiery rhetoric coming from the

:17:31. > :17:36.Argentinians in recent weeks about the status of what they call Las

:17:36. > :17:41.Malvinas and we call the Falklands. Argentina has always claimed the

:17:41. > :17:47.islands but this flare-up in the dispute has been -- has prompted

:17:47. > :17:50.David Cameron to reiterate the British position that the islands'

:17:50. > :17:57.sovereignty is non-negotiable. Here is the Argentine President last

:17:57. > :18:03.week. TRANSLATION: Just in the last few hours, the Prime Minister of

:18:03. > :18:10.the United Kingdom, in what has been defined by the Argentine

:18:10. > :18:20.foreign ministry, as an arrogant gesture, and what I define as an

:18:20. > :18:20.

:18:20. > :18:26.expression of mediocrity and almost stupidity, he used the words. To

:18:26. > :18:29.refer to our islands as if you can put an end to our history. I want

:18:29. > :18:39.to tell you in the name of all Argentines that the Argentine

:18:39. > :18:39.

:18:39. > :18:47.people do not believe in. When it comes to the sovereignty of our

:18:47. > :18:52.islands. We are going to get them back through international rights

:18:52. > :18:57.and three peas. They should have no doubt. So, have no doubt, we are

:18:57. > :19:00.going to get them back. With us now is Dick Sawle who has something to

:19:00. > :19:04.say about this, a member of the Legislative Assembly of the

:19:04. > :19:08.Falkland Islands. It is pretty fiery at the moment, are you

:19:08. > :19:11.sleeping comfortably in your beds at night? I think we all sleep

:19:11. > :19:17.comfortably knowing we have a strong defence in the Falkland

:19:18. > :19:23.Islands and I do not think there is a likelihood of any military action.

:19:23. > :19:28.What we saw on the screen just now is the rhetoric we get from

:19:28. > :19:33.Argentina on a very constant basis. It is coupled with some high brass

:19:33. > :19:39.concerns in the military as well. I will quote you something that

:19:39. > :19:44.Admiral -- Admiral Sandy Woodward said, without American support the

:19:44. > :19:51.Falklands, the reclaiming of which cost 253 brave British lives, are

:19:51. > :19:58.close to being indefensible. He thinks there is little that can

:19:58. > :20:03.be done. I do not know, really, but I doubt that Argentina is that

:20:03. > :20:08.capable of mounting any military action against the Falklands. We

:20:08. > :20:13.have four typhoons, a type 44 destroyer, a minesweeper and forces

:20:13. > :20:18.on the ground. We are a lot better defended now that we wearing 1982

:20:18. > :20:22.and I think that defence is pretty secure. So the man who knows the

:20:22. > :20:26.lie of the land, Admiral Sandy Woodward is wrong? No, he is

:20:26. > :20:32.talking from a different perspective. I'm talking of someone

:20:32. > :20:36.who lives -- I am talking of someone who lives on the islands.

:20:36. > :20:39.Was he talking about the loss of aircraft carriers? A few others

:20:39. > :20:43.have been relating it to cuts which have been proposed by the

:20:43. > :20:49.government. So, you're not worried about military action but are you

:20:49. > :20:53.worried about diplomatic actions. I know you were in New York recently.

:20:53. > :20:57.It does seem like the international tide of opinion may be turning on

:20:57. > :21:02.the future of your islands. I think it is the opposite. I think the

:21:02. > :21:05.tide is turning in our favour. We are going out into the

:21:05. > :21:09.international forum, we are speaking more vocally about our own

:21:09. > :21:15.position and our wishes which are the most important thing. The thing

:21:15. > :21:20.is, America has been a good ally in these things. On 7th June in New

:21:20. > :21:23.York, they signed a declaration calling on the UK and Argentina to

:21:23. > :21:29.begin negotiations about the sovereignty of the Falklands. It

:21:29. > :21:33.does not sound like a done deal. That message from the United States

:21:33. > :21:39.has not changed since about 1940. It is the same message they have

:21:39. > :21:44.been putting out for many years. Let's bring Hillary Benn in on this.

:21:44. > :21:48.Do you think there is reason to be concerned? The first responsibility

:21:48. > :21:53.of the government is to make sure the Falkland Islands are properly

:21:53. > :21:56.protected. We saw what happened when they were not, when a

:21:57. > :22:02.dictatorship launched the invasion all those years ago. The government

:22:02. > :22:05.has got that responsibility and they must exercise it because they

:22:05. > :22:10.are very clear that as long as the Falkland Islanders wished to remain

:22:10. > :22:14.British, and they do, we will defend them in that right. When you

:22:14. > :22:18.have military top brass saying it could the indefensible, do you also

:22:18. > :22:23.wish they would allow you to do the talking and they just did the

:22:23. > :22:27.fighting? I understand that there is comment about this which is

:22:27. > :22:32.related to wider defence issues but I agree with Hillary, our duty is

:22:32. > :22:38.to ensure the Falkland islands can be defended. We need to make clear

:22:38. > :22:42.that the sovereignty of the islands is not negotiable and have a clear,

:22:42. > :22:50.firm, consistent government approach to that and make it clear

:22:50. > :22:54.to all on the international stage, including Argentina, and then to

:22:54. > :22:58.make clear that we want to engage with Argentina on other issues. I

:22:58. > :23:02.think that clarity of purpose is also important. For David Cameron

:23:02. > :23:08.has been clear that the Americans, you say it is a position they have

:23:08. > :23:13.held for some time, in view of the fact there was an invasion, their -

:23:13. > :23:21.- they could be clearer? I cannot speak for the Americans but I can

:23:21. > :23:27.speak for our government. We have sought to give our firm position

:23:27. > :23:35.which is the sovereignty of the islands is not up for discussion.

:23:35. > :23:39.Again, the entire country is assigned -- behind us. I used

:23:39. > :23:43.slightly irked that the country, with which you have stood so

:23:43. > :23:47.ardently shoulder to shoulder in international adventures, is taking

:23:47. > :23:52.this line that it is open to negotiation? I think probably we

:23:52. > :23:56.ought to remember that there was a great deal of help, as we know, in

:23:56. > :24:00.retrospect, given by the United States when we sought to reclaim

:24:00. > :24:05.the Falkland Islands so I would not want to characterise my response in

:24:05. > :24:10.that way. I also visited Washington and met quite a few politicians

:24:10. > :24:14.there and to a man, they were extremely supportive. Thank you for

:24:14. > :24:19.coming to see us. Why we have been talking about the

:24:19. > :24:23.Falklands, there have been more clashes outside the parliament in

:24:23. > :24:30.Athens where the austerity Bill is being debated. If it is not going

:24:30. > :24:34.to work outside, we can also report according to the AP wires out of

:24:34. > :24:40.Athens that a Conservative deputy with the opposition has said she

:24:40. > :24:47.will break with her party and back the crucial austerity measures.

:24:47. > :24:52.That gives it a better chance of getting through. It is very close

:24:52. > :24:57.up the moment with 300 deputies in the Athens parliament. No doubt,

:24:57. > :25:01.the new leader of the IMF will be watching that. A very impressive

:25:01. > :25:08.French finance minister. She used to be a synchronised swimmer.

:25:08. > :25:12.not know that, and drew! Public service broadcasting tells you what

:25:12. > :25:17.you need to know. Fierce battle is also receiving this afternoon for

:25:17. > :25:24.the most sought-after of prizes. It is a gladiatorial contest of wills.

:25:24. > :25:29.We are hoping for a British champion, perhaps that Scottish

:25:29. > :25:34.track. Quiet please, ladies and gentlemen, if you want to halt the

:25:34. > :25:44.Daily Politics mark aloft. Keep your eye on the ball. Come on,

:25:44. > :26:12.

:26:12. > :26:22.Andy! I meant you! Let's see if you Flyovers ensure that no traffic

:26:22. > :26:37.

:26:37. > :26:47.Fine weather was ideal for this jamboree. It was like watching a

:26:47. > :27:06.

:27:07. > :27:10.Now, you are showing off if you tried to identify the pianist. He

:27:10. > :27:15.is a clever boy. To be in with a chance of winning a Daily Politics

:27:15. > :27:21.mug, send your answer to our e-mail address, dpquiz@bbc.co.uk. Full

:27:21. > :27:26.terms and conditions are on our website, bbc.co.uk/dailypolitics.

:27:26. > :27:30.Now it is coming up to midday here. We can take a look at Big Ben.

:27:30. > :27:36.Prime Minister's Questions is on its way. There is also a chap in

:27:36. > :27:43.the studio I do not quite recognise. I just thought I would pop in! I am

:27:43. > :27:51.making a documentary, Andrew. did not send flowers. Flowers, did

:27:51. > :27:56.they not come? I am making a documentary about tax spend on BBC2.

:27:56. > :28:03.I am surprised he is talking to us! Interesting for Ed Miliband today,

:28:03. > :28:07.will he go on strike do you think? I do not think he will go on giving

:28:07. > :28:11.up all his six questions on it, but he does know if he does not mention

:28:11. > :28:16.them he will be held up by the backbenchers and the Prime Minister.

:28:16. > :28:21.My guess is he will find a way to say, I am not in favour of these

:28:21. > :28:26.strikes, but I blame the government for cocking up the negotiations.

:28:26. > :28:30.Then he will want to move on. He is in a desperately uncomfortable

:28:30. > :28:34.position. If he did not say what he said, he would be accused by the

:28:34. > :28:38.Tory media and the Tory party of being a friend of the unions and he

:28:38. > :28:43.only got his job because of the unions. If he does say what he says,

:28:43. > :28:47.he risks upsetting the unions. is always difficult, those of us

:28:47. > :28:51.who remember Neil Kinnock's position, it is always difficult

:28:51. > :28:56.for a leader of a Labour opposition to position themselves when it

:28:56. > :29:00.comes to major national strikes. Extraordinarily difficult. You're

:29:00. > :29:05.talking about the miners' strike. It was agony for a Neil Kinnock.

:29:05. > :29:09.They used to be a game if you wanted to tell who was really new

:29:09. > :29:13.Labour, the people who was a Blairite, the people who said in

:29:14. > :29:19.private we took the wrong side on the miners' dispute. We are nowhere

:29:19. > :29:23.near that sort of dilemma. It is relatively easy for Ed Miliband to

:29:23. > :29:26.stand with parents and say, this is difficult for you, but it could get

:29:26. > :29:30.difficult. The thing that people always have to remember is the

:29:30. > :29:35.Labour Party was founded by the unions, it is not just some had

:29:35. > :29:42.drunk, that is how they were founded. It is a profound question

:29:42. > :29:48.on how they take that position. They will want Ed Miliband and his

:29:48. > :29:53.advisers to say, just get on and negotiate. What other Low Hanging

:29:53. > :29:57.fruit would there be for the Labour leader if he did not use all his

:29:57. > :30:02.questions which are busy and he will not do it all on strikes?

:30:02. > :30:06.front page of the Times today suggested that burglary rates have

:30:06. > :30:10.gone up, but the head of the Metropolitan Police in London, that

:30:10. > :30:14.Ken Clarke the Justice Secretary has said this and the temptation to

:30:14. > :30:19.say crime going up while police budgets squeezed, pretty tempting I

:30:19. > :30:23.would have thought, at a time when the Labour Party wants to increase

:30:23. > :30:26.the discomfort of Ken Clarke on this whole issue of law and order

:30:26. > :30:30.that you are talking about, without necessarily having an argument

:30:30. > :30:34.about sentencing. The difficulty with having that argument is some

:30:34. > :30:38.people would say, I seem to remember you in the leadership

:30:38. > :30:42.contest saying you would back the government when they took a more

:30:43. > :30:47.liberal approach to sentencing. If you want to continue encouraging

:30:47. > :30:57.Tory backbenchers to cause trouble, police and crime. Let's go to the

:30:57. > :31:01.

:31:01. > :31:05.By two, Mr Speaker. What does my right honourable Friend say to the

:31:05. > :31:10.teachers at my constituency first school, who are putting the welfare

:31:10. > :31:13.of parents and children first by not striking to borrow? I would

:31:13. > :31:17.congratulate them for doing the right thing and keeping the school

:31:17. > :31:23.open. I don't think there is any case for industrial action tomorrow,

:31:23. > :31:26.not least because talks are still ongoing. It is only a minority of

:31:26. > :31:30.unions that have taken the decision to go ahead on strike. What I want

:31:30. > :31:34.to see tomorrow is as many mums and dads as possible able to take their

:31:34. > :31:39.children to school. What I would say is this. What we are proposing

:31:39. > :31:43.is fair. It is fair to taxpayers, but it is also fair to the public

:31:43. > :31:53.sector. Because we want to continue strong public sector pensions. Ed

:31:53. > :31:54.

:31:54. > :31:57.There are currently 163 statutory organisations within the National

:31:57. > :32:01.Health Service. Can the Prime Minister tell us how many there

:32:01. > :32:07.will be after his top-down reorganisation? All I can tell the

:32:07. > :32:12.Honourable Gentleman... What I can tell the Honourable Gentleman is

:32:12. > :32:16.that the health reforms that now have the support of the Health

:32:16. > :32:19.Minister will see a reduction in bureaucracy because we are getting

:32:19. > :32:24.rid of Strategic Health Authorities and we are getting rid of primary

:32:24. > :32:34.care trusts. Let me give him the answer to the question. The number

:32:34. > :32:35.

:32:35. > :32:39.is going to go up from 163 to 521. Pathfinder consortium, health or

:32:39. > :32:46.well-being boards, shadow commissioning groups, a authorised

:32:46. > :32:50.commissioning groups, national commissioning boards, PCT clusters,

:32:50. > :32:56.clinical networks and clinical senates. Mr Speaker, is this what

:32:56. > :33:03.he meant by a bonfire of quangos? If he looks at the figures of

:33:03. > :33:07.savings he will see where savings come from, �5 billion savings

:33:07. > :33:10.through the reduction of bureaucracy. What we inherited was

:33:10. > :33:14.a situation where the number of managers was going up four times as

:33:14. > :33:18.fast as the number of nurses. What has happened since we took over,

:33:18. > :33:24.the number of doctors has gone up, the number of bureaucrats has gone

:33:24. > :33:30.down. I'll tell him about our record on the NHS. More doctors and

:33:30. > :33:36.nurses than ever before. The shortest waiting lists ever. The

:33:36. > :33:40.highest patient satisfaction ever. Now, he says that it is going to

:33:40. > :33:43.save money. But he's refused to publish the figures accompanying

:33:43. > :33:47.the new amendments to the hospital of how much he's going to spend.

:33:47. > :33:53.Maybe he can tell me this. These figures are available. How much is

:33:53. > :33:56.he going to be spending on making NHS staff redundant? Let me give

:33:56. > :34:01.him the figures on the costs and benefits of reducing the

:34:01. > :34:06.bureaucracy. This is the question he asked. This is the answer he

:34:06. > :34:11.will get. Changes will have a one- off cost of �1.4 billion over the

:34:11. > :34:17.next two years. But over �5 billion will be saved in total during this

:34:17. > :34:22.Parliament. Over a ten-year period there will be net savings of �12.3

:34:22. > :34:28.billion. Add to that the fact that we are putting �11.5 billion extra

:34:28. > :34:32.into the NHS and he fought the last election pledging to cut debt.

:34:32. > :34:39.didn't answer the specific question asked. How much is he spending on

:34:39. > :34:44.making NHS staff redundant? The answer is �852 million. That is

:34:44. > :34:49.being spent on making NHS staff redundant. Now, can he guaranteed

:34:49. > :34:59.his house that none of those staff will be rehired to do their old

:34:59. > :34:59.

:34:59. > :35:01.jobs at his new quango? What we are steering is implementing... We are

:35:02. > :35:06.implementing the �20 billion cost savings that were set out by the

:35:06. > :35:09.party opposite when they were in government. But the difference is

:35:09. > :35:14.that we are going on with putting more money into the NHS, money that

:35:15. > :35:19.the party opposite does not support, so that there will be more nurses,

:35:19. > :35:25.more doctors, more operations and a better NHS compared with cuts from

:35:25. > :35:28.the party opposite. Mr Speaker, let me and ask the question again

:35:28. > :35:32.because he didn't answer it. People are very concerned that he is

:35:33. > :35:37.creating a whole new set of quangos. Will he tell us this simple

:35:37. > :35:41.question, can he guarantee that none of the people being made

:35:41. > :35:48.redundant will be rehired tutu their old jobs at his new quangos?

:35:48. > :35:53.It's a simple question, yes or no. I know that he has this

:35:53. > :35:56.extraordinary vision of how the NHS is run. It's not the prime minister

:35:56. > :36:00.who hires every person in any organisation in the NHS. The

:36:00. > :36:05.difference between this coalition government and the party opposite

:36:05. > :36:08.is that we are investing in the NHS, putting resources into the NHS,

:36:08. > :36:13.reforming the NHS in a way that is supported by the Royal College of

:36:13. > :36:19.Surgeons, the Royal College of Physicians, Tony Blair, Lord Dowes

:36:19. > :36:22.I, most people working in the NHS, but not the party opposite. Order!

:36:23. > :36:27.The decibel level is far too high. The Prime Minister should not have

:36:27. > :36:32.to shout to get itself heard. whole country will have heard that

:36:32. > :36:35.he has admitted they are spending �852 million on making people

:36:35. > :36:41.redundant. And he can't even promise they won't be rehired to do

:36:41. > :36:44.their old jobs. Is it the truth that the Prommers note of doubt

:36:44. > :36:48.reorganisation, he's doing it. He promised a bonfire of the quangos,

:36:48. > :36:51.is creating more. He promised a better deal for patients and things

:36:51. > :36:58.are getting worse. What people asking up and down this country is

:36:58. > :37:01.what is he doing to our NHS? What the whole country will have noticed

:37:02. > :37:08.is that at a time when people are worried about strikes, he can't ask

:37:08. > :37:12.about strikes because he's in the pocket of the unions. What the

:37:12. > :37:16.whole country will have noticed is that, at a time when Greece is

:37:16. > :37:21.facing huge problems over its deficit, he can't talk about Greece

:37:21. > :37:26.because his plan is to make Britain like Greece. What the whole country

:37:26. > :37:30.will have noticed is, at a time when the economy is the key issue,

:37:30. > :37:39.he can't talk about the economy because of his ludicrous plan for

:37:39. > :37:49.tax cuts. That is what we say. Week after week. He has to talk about

:37:49. > :37:56.

:37:56. > :38:01.the micro because they can't talk Order! ORDER! I appeal to the house

:38:01. > :38:11.to calm down and reflects on what the public thinks of this sort of

:38:11. > :38:20.

:38:21. > :38:23.Would the Prime Minister agree with made that a Conservative -- may

:38:23. > :38:29.that it is unusual to see the Conservatives putting money into

:38:30. > :38:35.the NHS, while Labour would want to cut it? I hope it is in order to

:38:35. > :38:38.talk about Labour's record in Wales. Because what we are saying, if

:38:38. > :38:43.anybody wants to know what would happen to the NHS under Labour,

:38:43. > :38:47.they can look at Wales, where they are smashing the NHS budget and

:38:47. > :38:53.they actually seeing more people waiting for longer. That is what

:38:53. > :39:02.happens when you get a Labour Party running the NHS. Ian Lucas.

:39:02. > :39:07.true, David! The leader of the opposition's tariff helped create

:39:07. > :39:14.300 more jobs in Wrexham in earlier this year. But today, because of

:39:14. > :39:18.his government's reversal of policy, the renewable Energy Association

:39:18. > :39:25.say that solar generation and the jobs and growth linked to it are in

:39:25. > :39:28.turmoil. Who knows better? Him or British business? I think anyone

:39:28. > :39:34.looking at what this government is doing in terms of renewable energy

:39:34. > :39:37.can see a massive investment in renewable energy. The �3 billion

:39:37. > :39:41.going into the Green Investment Bank, the massive incentives given

:39:41. > :39:48.under the renewable heat initiative. What we did have to dig or stop the

:39:48. > :39:51.abuse... We had to stop the abuse of solar power, where clearly the

:39:51. > :40:01.Ray Shead was not setting the right way. Anybody looking at industry

:40:01. > :40:05.

:40:05. > :40:09.can see eight huge boost from this Despite the gravity of the

:40:09. > :40:17.financial situation, against which the Bank of England is preparing

:40:17. > :40:24.contingency plans, has the Government also got a team working

:40:24. > :40:32.on the details of a new treaty, if, as seems probable, the European

:40:32. > :40:35.Union us to be considerably Could I first of all say, on behalf

:40:35. > :40:39.of the whole house, to the father of the house, what great pleasure

:40:39. > :40:44.it gives me to refer to him as the right honourable gentleman after

:40:44. > :40:48.his many years of service in this house. What I would say to the

:40:48. > :40:52.Honourable Gentleman is that we have quite rightly used the

:40:52. > :40:55.opportunity of the new treaty change been put forward to protect

:40:55. > :41:01.Britain's interests and get us out of the bail out mechanism for the

:41:01. > :41:05.future. If new proposals:, we had used the opportunity again. Right

:41:05. > :41:11.now, the priority must be to work for stability in the euro-zone, not

:41:11. > :41:15.least because 40% of exports go to European countries. Britain is

:41:15. > :41:19.playing a constructive role in making sure that happens. Does the

:41:19. > :41:25.Prime Minister agree with the Deputy Prime Minister that the idea

:41:25. > :41:33.of introducing a marriage tax allowance is patronising drivel?

:41:33. > :41:37.The Deputy Prime Minister and I... We agree about many, many things.

:41:37. > :41:40.But it is actually set out in the coalition agreement that this is

:41:41. > :41:44.one area where I do not agree. I had a strong supporter of the

:41:44. > :41:51.institution of marriage. I think it would be a good idea to recce dies

:41:51. > :41:56.it in the tax system. -- recognise it in the tax system. Six migrant

:41:56. > :42:01.workers were arrested in my constituency, all of whom had

:42:01. > :42:06.national insurance numbers and work paying national insurance. Why

:42:06. > :42:09.can't we prevent illegal workers from being issued with national

:42:09. > :42:11.insurance numbers and the first place, or at least flag them so

:42:11. > :42:17.that the Border Agency knows that these people are not allowed to

:42:17. > :42:21.wear? By a Honourable Friend makes an extremely good. But grow. As he

:42:21. > :42:27.knows, or the application process for adults does include an identity

:42:27. > :42:31.check and the precondition that the individual is entitled to work. But

:42:31. > :42:33.national insurance number should not be issued to those with no

:42:33. > :42:36.entitlement to whip. But this is happening and we are looking

:42:36. > :42:43.closely at the idea of marking national insurance numbers in the

:42:43. > :42:47.way that he suggests. That you, Mr Speaker. At a time when the NHS is

:42:47. > :42:50.under financial pressure and people in Wirral are being hit by steep

:42:50. > :42:54.rises in prices, please will the Prime Minister tell me if he agrees

:42:54. > :42:58.with his friends on that side of the house who think that costly tax

:42:58. > :43:08.breaks for those that can choose private health care should be a

:43:08. > :43:12.

:43:12. > :43:16.priority? The short answer is no, I The Prime Minister will be aware

:43:16. > :43:19.that core inflation for small business is at its highest level

:43:19. > :43:24.for three years. Will the Prime Minister recognise that problem,

:43:24. > :43:31.but especially tell us what else he can do it to increase demand, which

:43:31. > :43:36.remains, at best, very sluggish. I'll tell my Honourable Friend what

:43:36. > :43:40.we have done to help the economy. This year, a key problem for

:43:40. > :43:43.business is the cost of fuel. We've cut fuel duty, abolish the

:43:43. > :43:48.escalator and put off the RPI increase for next year, making a

:43:48. > :43:53.difference of about six pence per gallon. With the banks, we have the

:43:53. > :43:56.Merlins agreement for extra lending to small business. We have also cut

:43:56. > :44:02.small business corporation tax. We have helped on business rates. This

:44:03. > :44:07.is a very small business-friendly government. Four years ago the

:44:07. > :44:11.Prime Minister said that the extremist organisation Hizb ut-

:44:11. > :44:15.Tahrir should be banned immediately. He promised to do just that in this

:44:15. > :44:19.house, elsewhere and even in his election manifesto. Why has he not

:44:19. > :44:24.done what he has promised so many times? Will he go back to Downing

:44:24. > :44:28.Street and Balham this organisation? We have taken action

:44:28. > :44:33.against extremist groups. We are looking very carefully at Hizb ut-

:44:33. > :44:38.Tahrir. In my view, what they have said goes well beyond what a legal

:44:38. > :44:42.organisations it says. That is has to be done under the law. Given

:44:42. > :44:48.that Lord Hutton, the former Labour pensions minister has described the

:44:48. > :44:51.current position on public sector pensions as completely untenable,

:44:51. > :44:58.would my right honourable friend agree that it is unacceptable for a

:44:58. > :45:03.small minority of trade unions to be disrupted thousands of people

:45:04. > :45:07.across this country? -- disrupting. I think my Honourable Friend is

:45:07. > :45:10.right. This is the issue they don't want to talk about on the other

:45:10. > :45:14.side of the house. It is a small minority of unions that have gone

:45:14. > :45:17.ahead with action. I think it is irresponsible, I don't think it's

:45:17. > :45:22.fair and I think what we are proposing is fair. He makes the

:45:22. > :45:26.point, quite rightly, that it was Lord Hutton, a former Labour

:45:26. > :45:29.minister, who has written an extremely good report, Making the

:45:29. > :45:33.simple point that as we live longer, which is good news, we are going to

:45:33. > :45:37.have to contribute more to public sector pensions and work for longer.

:45:37. > :45:41.Let me stress, the reason we are doing this is not in any way to

:45:41. > :45:46.undermine public sector pensions, but to safeguard good, defined

:45:46. > :45:49.benefit systems for the future. In my view, there is a contract

:45:49. > :45:58.between taxpayers and public sector workers saying, you work in the

:45:58. > :46:03.public sector, will support to an Is the Prime Minister aware of the

:46:03. > :46:08.concerns that have been expressed about the new arrangement of the

:46:08. > :46:11.repatriation of the bodies of our servicemen and women killed

:46:11. > :46:15.overseas on active service, following the transfer to Brize

:46:15. > :46:18.Norton, and can he tell the House what facilities will be put in

:46:18. > :46:23.place for the families of the bereaved at Brize Norton, and to

:46:23. > :46:28.allow the public there if to express their condolences to our

:46:28. > :46:32.fallen? I'm aware of the issue because Brize Norton is in my own

:46:32. > :46:36.constituency. A lot of thought has gone into how to do this in the

:46:36. > :46:41.right way and a lot of care and thought will go into how to look

:46:41. > :46:45.after the families. I think it is also right that we should mark the

:46:45. > :46:54.passage from Wootton Bassett, soon to be Royal Wootton Bassett, to

:46:54. > :46:58.Brize Norton as well. constituency is home to an army

:46:58. > :47:02.barracks and isn't it the time but we should give service personnel

:47:02. > :47:07.priority when it comes to housing? I think my honourable friend makes

:47:07. > :47:11.an important point. We have put the military covenant into law for the

:47:11. > :47:14.first time. That is important to make sure that military personnel

:47:14. > :47:18.are not discriminated against but I think it is right that every

:47:18. > :47:21.council should look at what they do to help those who serve our country

:47:21. > :47:26.and it is what my local council does in west Oxfordshire, because

:47:26. > :47:29.of Brize Norton and I would encourage others to do the same. We

:47:29. > :47:33.have the new policy of first by direct where we are helping first-

:47:33. > :47:37.time buyers on to the housing ladder and I'm pleased to see the

:47:37. > :47:40.Housing Minister is making sure this policy is taken round to the

:47:40. > :47:45.different army and other military bases to make sure military

:47:45. > :47:52.personnel can take advantage of it. This week is the first anniversary

:47:52. > :47:54.of the backbench business committee. Over the last year, does the Prime

:47:54. > :48:00.Minister think that Parliament has become better at holding the

:48:00. > :48:05.government to account and if he does, can we offer our health to

:48:05. > :48:09.unlock some of the legislation that has stuck in the legislative

:48:10. > :48:12.pipeline? Let me congratulate the backbench committee over the last

:48:12. > :48:16.year. I think it has made a difference in Parliament. I think

:48:16. > :48:21.it is quite right that the House of Commons can choose to debate a

:48:21. > :48:25.subject of its choosing, on a motion of its choosing, at a time

:48:25. > :48:31.of its choosing. He has discussed a range of issues from the very

:48:31. > :48:35.mundane to be quite obscure. It has, if you like, it has been a year of

:48:35. > :48:38.bread and circuses. I think it is a good idea, I want to see it go on

:48:38. > :48:44.working and I would like to take some credit that it was this

:48:44. > :48:52.government that gave up the power and allowed this to happen.

:48:52. > :48:56.People in Devon, earned around �2,964 less than the UK average,

:48:56. > :49:01.yet our average water bill is the highest in the country and well

:49:02. > :49:06.above the national average of �356. Does the Prime Minister agree with

:49:06. > :49:10.me at the third option outlined in the recent DEFRA consultation

:49:10. > :49:15.suggesting a government subsidy of �50 per household for the South

:49:15. > :49:18.West, would go a long way to writing this unfairness? This issue

:49:18. > :49:22.of excessive water bills in the south-west has been an issue for

:49:22. > :49:25.many, many years and I am proud of the fact that within a year it is

:49:25. > :49:30.this government which has decided to grip it. We are determined to

:49:30. > :49:35.lower water bills for households in the south-west. We have pledged

:49:35. > :49:41.that in the Budget. We will publish a White Paper in November.

:49:41. > :49:45.The crisis at Southern Cross has raised fears of the viability of

:49:45. > :49:49.the residential care sector. Will the Prime Minister inject some

:49:49. > :49:54.urgency into his government's review of companies which provide

:49:54. > :49:59.care services? We need a belt and braces plan to stop the elderly

:49:59. > :50:02.worrying about the place that they call home. I think the Honourable

:50:02. > :50:07.Gentleman makes an extremely important point and many of us,

:50:07. > :50:10.myself included, have care homes in our constituencies run by Southern

:50:10. > :50:14.Cross and are extremely concerned about what has happened and what is

:50:14. > :50:18.happening. I can tell him that the health department and the Treasury

:50:19. > :50:24.and the business department are following this closely. We do have

:50:24. > :50:27.powers to make sure we regulate these places probably. Local

:50:27. > :50:32.authorities have the powers to takeover the running of care homes

:50:32. > :50:36.if necessary. I believe we are planning for contingencies in the

:50:36. > :50:40.correct way. Given the high cost of petrol which

:50:40. > :50:44.is crucifying motorists in Harlow across the country, with Mike

:50:45. > :50:48.honourable friend support the fair fuel UK campaign and urged oil

:50:48. > :50:53.companies to reduce petrol prices at the pump in line with market

:50:53. > :50:57.prices and review the three pence increase next January? I want to

:50:57. > :51:01.see every chance for lower prices do pass on to the consumer. What

:51:01. > :51:06.the government has done is taken its necessary measures, the 1 p cut

:51:06. > :51:08.in fuel duty this year, the pudding of of the RPI increase, the

:51:08. > :51:14.abolition of the fuel escalator that the party opposite put in

:51:14. > :51:18.place, all of those things will make a difference. Also, we took

:51:18. > :51:21.part in the release of oil stocks, together with Americans, which has

:51:21. > :51:28.seen the oil price come down but we need to make sure we have a good

:51:28. > :51:32.competitive sector that passes on price cuts through the country.

:51:32. > :51:37.As if the review of the air passage contingency continues, does the

:51:37. > :51:42.Prime Minister accept there is an urgency in the situation,

:51:42. > :51:49.especially in my constituency of South Antrim, given that the levy

:51:49. > :51:53.on a long haul flight whereas our competitors have a levee of just 3

:51:53. > :51:57.euros. The airlines link between Northern Ireland and New York,

:51:58. > :52:02.something urgently must be done now. I understand a point the honourable

:52:03. > :52:07.gentleman necks and I know it is of personal concern to him. I do

:52:07. > :52:11.understand, when I went to Northern Ireland, people are explained the

:52:11. > :52:15.importance of maintaining the air link direct between Northern

:52:15. > :52:18.Ireland and the United States, absolutely vital for the long-term

:52:18. > :52:22.economic health of this province. The Chancellor has spoken to people

:52:22. > :52:26.in Northern Ireland about it and we are reviewing the options and we

:52:26. > :52:30.will clear a path forward. My right honourable friend will be

:52:30. > :52:35.aware that our colleague, Lord Bates, is currently walking from a

:52:35. > :52:40.limpet in Greece to London, a journey of 4,000 miles to raise

:52:40. > :52:45.awareness of the Olympic truce. Will the Prime Minister he ensure

:52:45. > :52:47.that when the UK government table sits resolution for observance of

:52:47. > :52:52.the Olympic truce to the United Nations General Assembly later this

:52:52. > :52:56.year, will add to it specific proposals for peace and

:52:56. > :53:00.reconciliation so we will maximise this historic opportunity? I'm sure

:53:00. > :53:09.the whole house would like to congratulate Lord Bates for his

:53:09. > :53:16.great feat. Sorry about that! Accidental, apologies for that. We

:53:16. > :53:18.will be promoting a fresh calling for the continuing

:53:18. > :53:21.observance of the Olympic truce for the 2012 games. We want to make the

:53:22. > :53:26.most of this historic opportunity and we are considering other

:53:26. > :53:29.initiatives to promote the spirit of the trees and the Foreign and

:53:30. > :53:33.Commonwealth Office are engaging with embassies worldwide -- the

:53:33. > :53:37.trees. A wet parents up-and-down the land

:53:37. > :53:41.be horrified to know that under their proposals, person convicted

:53:41. > :53:47.of raping a child will not automatically be put on the Bard

:53:47. > :53:51.list of working with children in the future? What we have done in

:53:51. > :53:55.terms of vetting and barring, is removed a huge number of people who

:53:55. > :54:00.were not a risk to children, but we do want to make sure the system

:54:00. > :54:05.works well so that anyone who has criminal convictions is barred.

:54:05. > :54:10.Mr Speaker, does the Prime Minister believe that the drugs policy has

:54:10. > :54:17.been failing for decades, as he said in 2005, and does he agree

:54:18. > :54:23.that the government should initiate a way of alternative ways including

:54:23. > :54:26.tackling the global drugs dilemma? I do not believe we should be

:54:26. > :54:31.legalising any drugs which are currently criminal, but I do

:54:31. > :54:34.believe the drugs policy has been a failure over recent years. I think

:54:34. > :54:39.there has been insufficient attention to two key areas,

:54:39. > :54:44.education on one hand, but also treatment on the other. One of the

:54:44. > :54:46.ways to collapse the drugs market is to have a more effective

:54:46. > :54:49.treatment system and in this country in particular, we have

:54:49. > :54:54.spent too much time on heroin replacement and methadone, rather

:54:54. > :54:58.than trying to get people clean and clear up all the things in their

:54:58. > :55:03.life which caused them to take drugs in the first place.

:55:03. > :55:10.Has the Prime Minister himself been involved in seeking a solution to

:55:10. > :55:16.the appalling problems in Sudan, and given the United Nations

:55:16. > :55:21.concern, about 60,000 people being displaced, as well as other huge

:55:21. > :55:25.humanitarian problems, will he use his influence on the eve of

:55:25. > :55:29.independence, to ensure that north and south are seen to work

:55:29. > :55:34.together? I think as the right honourable gentleman knows, we are

:55:34. > :55:39.deeply involved in trying to seek a successful outcome to this process.

:55:39. > :55:43.We find a lot of the talks process which has been ongoing. The Foreign

:55:43. > :55:47.Secretary has visited the country, as has the Africa Minister. Britain

:55:47. > :55:51.has done a huge amount to ensure that the CPA is fully implemented

:55:51. > :55:58.and there is a peaceful settlement between the two countries. Clearly,

:55:58. > :56:04.there is more work today. What does the Prime Minister think

:56:04. > :56:08.is more fair and progressive, the coalition government's policy of

:56:08. > :56:11.safeguarding benefits and the public sector or Labour's �1

:56:11. > :56:15.billion smash and grab on private pension funds which contributed

:56:15. > :56:19.directly to the demise of defined benefit schemes in the private

:56:19. > :56:25.sector? I think my honourable friend makes an extremely good

:56:25. > :56:29.point. 26 minutes into Question Time, not a squeak from the party

:56:30. > :56:34.opposite about strikes of pensions or the need for reform. Because

:56:35. > :56:38.they are all paid for by the trade unions, they cannot talk about this

:56:38. > :56:42.issue. What that coalition government is doing is right. We

:56:42. > :56:46.are saying, we want to have a defined benefit system in the

:56:46. > :56:50.public sector. We want to ensure that all those accrued rights are

:56:50. > :56:55.kept and those accrued rights you will still be able to take at the

:56:55. > :56:59.age you were allowed to take them. For those people currently in a

:56:59. > :57:03.final-salary scheme, when they get those benefits, they will be based

:57:03. > :57:09.on their final salary, not the final salary now, or when the

:57:09. > :57:12.reforms go through, but before -- final salary when they retire. They

:57:12. > :57:15.have been so much myth and misinformation put around by those

:57:15. > :57:19.in the trade unions, it is important to put on the record in

:57:19. > :57:24.the house. Compared with the same period last

:57:24. > :57:28.year, crime overall in London is up, including a 15 % rise in robbery

:57:29. > :57:34.and an 18 % rise in burglary. At the same time, the mayor for London

:57:34. > :57:39.is budgeted to cut 1800 police officers. Is this the right time to

:57:39. > :57:44.do this and will the Prime Minister get a grip in London? First of all,

:57:44. > :57:47.overall crime is falling. It is according to both the British Crime

:57:47. > :57:51.Survey and the police recorded crime statistics. We are doing a

:57:51. > :57:55.huge amount to help people right across the country, including the

:57:55. > :57:57.London to deal with crime. The publication of crime maps, the

:57:57. > :58:02.introduction of Police Commissioners, making sure we have

:58:02. > :58:06.the proper powers necessary and perhaps because he is a London MP,

:58:06. > :58:12.let me bring him up to date with operation target, which is running

:58:12. > :58:17.in the Metropolitan Police. On average, 1,200 officers deployed

:58:17. > :58:21.every day, they have been 4,000 different activities, 2000 arrests

:58:21. > :58:25.but it is early days but there has been a drop in offences from week

:58:26. > :58:29.to week from most serious offences, violence, knife crime, street

:58:29. > :58:35.robbery and residential burglary. That is, they do not like to hear

:58:35. > :58:41.an answer when it shows the police are doing their job. Prime

:58:41. > :58:46.Minister's Questions is principally for backbenchers. Mr Graham Evans.

:58:46. > :58:50.On the eighth of June 1944, a relative of mine was shot down

:58:50. > :58:54.while dropping notes needed supplies to the French Resistance.

:58:54. > :58:58.Today he lives in a Normandy Joel jarred with the crew of his Halifax

:58:58. > :59:02.bomber. Does the Prime Minister agree with me battered his right

:59:02. > :59:06.and proper that this nation should remember the sacrifice of 55,000

:59:06. > :59:10.members of Bomber Command who gave their lives to rid Europe of Nazi

:59:10. > :59:14.tyranny? I think it is absolutely right that we remember those who

:59:14. > :59:19.served in Bomber Command and I recognise there is a lot of work to

:59:19. > :59:23.make sure that is done. As someone who has visited one of the

:59:23. > :59:28.Commonwealth War Graves ceremonies in Normandy recently, it is a

:59:28. > :59:32.brilliant thing the way they are kept up and the work that is done

:59:32. > :59:36.to make sure relatives can visit their fallen heroes.

:59:36. > :59:40.During the last Labour government, millions of pensioners in this

:59:40. > :59:44.country, including my grandmother who is in the gallery today, saw

:59:44. > :59:48.the quality of life improved vastly, with measures such as the winter

:59:48. > :59:52.fuel allowance, pension credits and a free bus pass. What message does

:59:52. > :59:55.the Prime Minister have for these women in this country who are now

:59:55. > :00:02.seeing their daughters have to work harder and longer for less money

:00:02. > :00:07.and some of them having less time to prepare for the state pension?

:00:07. > :00:11.What I would say to her constituency and all pensioners is

:00:11. > :00:14.this government is reforming pensions so we are going to be

:00:15. > :00:20.paying a more generous state retirement pension. Because of the

:00:20. > :00:24.triple lock, someone retiring today will be �15,000 better off over the

:00:24. > :00:28.rest of their life than they would be under the plans we inherited. We

:00:28. > :00:32.have kept for free bus pass, we have kept the free television

:00:32. > :00:38.licence, we have kept the other benefits and I believe we are being

:00:38. > :00:41.fed by Britain's pensioners. The Prime Minister eluded earlier

:00:41. > :00:46.to the contract between taxpayers and Public servants, there is a

:00:46. > :00:49.contract between tax payers and MPs as well, does he agree that we

:00:49. > :00:53.should be in the vanguard of reforming our own pensions, so we

:00:53. > :00:56.can look our public sector constituents in the face?

:00:56. > :01:00.absolutely agree with the honourable lady. In this house, we

:01:00. > :01:05.are public sector workers as well and we should be subject to exactly

:01:05. > :01:09.the same changes we asking others to take on. The increase in

:01:09. > :01:13.contributions should apply to the MPs' system, even though it is a

:01:13. > :01:16.system where we already pay in a lot. We are saying across the board,

:01:16. > :01:26.the increase in pension contributions are right to create a

:01:26. > :01:27.

:01:27. > :01:30.Well, Prime Ministers questions comes to an end. Not many to go

:01:30. > :01:33.before the summer recess. The leader of the opposition using the

:01:33. > :01:37.technique he's used over the past couple of weeks of trying to burrow

:01:37. > :01:40.into some detail in the hope that the Prime Minister is not across

:01:40. > :01:46.the detail, which he was not in the past couple of weeks. This time he

:01:46. > :01:51.was asking about what will happen to the number of quangos in the NHS

:01:51. > :01:55.after the reform. And the cost of redundancies, which he put at �852

:01:55. > :02:00.million. Asking if any of those people would be retired. It's a

:02:00. > :02:04.tactic that he has employed for several weeks. We will be

:02:04. > :02:08.discussing whether British is effective or not. The Prime

:02:08. > :02:12.Minister said, you don't want to talk about strikes, but you are

:02:12. > :02:16.talking about the detail. We'll see what the panel makes of this new

:02:16. > :02:20.approach by the leader of the opposition. First, we'll see what

:02:20. > :02:25.you made of it. You can kind of tell when the energy has gone out

:02:25. > :02:29.of PMQs, people want to talk about anything except the exchange

:02:29. > :02:34.between the leaders. Today, the actions of the speaker have caught

:02:34. > :02:39.your imagination. The Speaker stopping the Prime Ministers bd was

:02:39. > :02:45.rude, says Alex Ross. The speaker needs to realise his position is to

:02:45. > :02:49.beat neutral, we are fed up by your interruptions, says another viewer.

:02:49. > :02:57.Then that that was before the rebuke about standing up for the

:02:57. > :03:03.backbenchers, suggesting that the prime minister's answer was too

:03:03. > :03:08.long. Ed and the Labour party are on the wrong side of the debates,

:03:08. > :03:14.says a viewer from Kent. Mr Cameron, people want to know the answer to

:03:14. > :03:17.the question, not what you think of Ed Miliband. I thought it was the

:03:17. > :03:22.end of Punch and Judy politics, said Andrew from Manchester. This

:03:22. > :03:29.one, why does Ed Miliband start every question with committee

:03:29. > :03:34.hasn't answered the question? -- he hasn't answered the question.

:03:34. > :03:39.do we make of this tactic? It's a way of unsettling the Prime

:03:39. > :03:43.Minister, in a way it does work, he didn't know the answer to the

:03:43. > :03:46.question. That's the tactic, but what is the strategy? Is he trying

:03:46. > :03:50.to say to the public that the Prime Minister doesn't know how to do his

:03:50. > :03:55.job? It seems to me that he's not playing with the grain, there isn't

:03:55. > :03:59.an obvious point to make. Clearly, there is a Labour line of attack,

:03:59. > :04:03.people will be sympathetic, the idea that the Government is making

:04:03. > :04:08.things up as it goes along, that you turning is a problem. But I

:04:08. > :04:13.found myself pretty puzzled by that line of attack. Clearly, it allows

:04:13. > :04:17.Labour to keep the story of the NHS going. I'd be very surprised if

:04:17. > :04:21.it's picked up widely in the media. If it is, and a sure the Labour

:04:21. > :04:30.Party will be given the credit for raising it. It's a frustration for

:04:30. > :04:35.Ed Miliband, sometimes. He has done quite powerful lines of attack, on

:04:35. > :04:39.the NHS and the first place. Quite often, people picked it up and the

:04:39. > :04:46.newspapers and gave him no credit. He left an open goal, in not asking

:04:46. > :04:49.about the strikes. It was easy for David Cameron to go on and say that,

:04:49. > :04:52.because he knows that every journalist has to write about the

:04:52. > :04:57.strikes. Why leave yourself vulnerable to the criticism?

:04:57. > :05:01.did he talk about them? He spoke about the strikes yesterday, at the

:05:01. > :05:03.weekend. The idea that we don't want to talk about it, Andy Burnham

:05:04. > :05:11.has asked that it should question on the strikes. The Government has

:05:11. > :05:15.made such a mess. Why not use PMQs? A Ed Miliband has made his position

:05:15. > :05:18.clear, he thinks the strikes at a mistake, he thinks the Government

:05:18. > :05:22.should be negotiating. What it showed again is that the Prime

:05:22. > :05:27.Minister doesn't know the detail, and secondly, on the NHS, he gave

:05:27. > :05:31.an absolutely categorical promise there would be no or top-down

:05:31. > :05:34.reorganisation. That is exactly what we are getting. Twice he could

:05:34. > :05:38.not answer the question, can you promise that the people you are

:05:38. > :05:41.paying off will not be rehired? He knows he can't answer, because that

:05:41. > :05:46.is what is going to happen with everything that he is bringing in.

:05:46. > :05:49.Let's take that issue. The leader of the opposition said it is

:05:49. > :05:54.costing �852 million to make a number of people redundant. Can you

:05:54. > :05:57.guarantee that these people will not be rehired in some way? If you

:05:57. > :06:00.had won the election, you would be making people redundant in the

:06:00. > :06:04.health service. We don't know what the numbers would be, undoubtedly

:06:04. > :06:07.you would have to do that, given the Alastair Darling plan. You

:06:07. > :06:11.would not be able to give that commitment either. You would have a

:06:11. > :06:15.redundancy bill and you could not say that you would not hire any of

:06:15. > :06:20.these people. It's a kind of non question. I disagree. You would say

:06:20. > :06:25.that? I disagree with your privates. We would not have had a top-down

:06:25. > :06:33.reorganisation of the type the Government is engaging in, -- with

:06:33. > :06:37.your premise. The stop-start, we are not going ahead, we are going

:06:37. > :06:41.ahead, we are not creating new bodies, we are having to create

:06:41. > :06:47.shadow bodies, it is one big mess. I you saying your government would

:06:47. > :06:50.not have made any redundancies? That is by point. David Cameron

:06:50. > :06:55.embarked on one course of action, then he was forced to screech to a

:06:55. > :07:01.halt. He is literally making it up as he goes along. All of the bodies

:07:01. > :07:03.that Ed Miliband listed in action - - asking the question, they are

:07:03. > :07:07.having to be created or having their lives prolonged because the

:07:07. > :07:13.Government has made a complete mess of what the Government is doing to

:07:13. > :07:16.the NHS. Having done a massive U- turn on the NHS, they are having a

:07:16. > :07:22.proliferation of quangos. This was a government, like every other

:07:23. > :07:26.government, promising a bonfire of the quangos. On Mr Miliband's

:07:26. > :07:31.figures, you're doubling or trebling the number of quangos.

:07:31. > :07:33.What is that about? This double, there you have it. He has just

:07:33. > :07:37.admitted that they would be able to answer the question that Ed

:07:37. > :07:40.Miliband was put into the Prime Minister in this tactic of asking

:07:40. > :07:47.these points of detail. I agree with Nick, I don't think it is

:07:47. > :07:50.successful. It means he's not addressing the big issues, it is an

:07:50. > :07:55.instantly forgettable Prime Ministers questions. I think it is

:07:56. > :08:01.completely the wrong strategy for him. It kind of unsettled the Prime

:08:01. > :08:05.Minister. I don't think it does. The luck on his face, it was almost

:08:05. > :08:09.news to him about the number of quangos that will be in the NHS

:08:09. > :08:15.after these reforms are done. have established that the Labour

:08:15. > :08:20.Party can dance a written question. -- couldn't answer its own question.

:08:20. > :08:24.They were looking for an admission from the Labour Party that they got

:08:24. > :08:28.things wrong, a stance that they are willing to change, that they

:08:28. > :08:32.are listing to the country, that the leader is willing to take big

:08:32. > :08:36.decisions. And he is flogging all of that, so I think Ed Miliband is

:08:36. > :08:41.doing himself a great deal of harm. There is clearly a long-term

:08:41. > :08:46.objective, to undermine David Cameron's claim to love heat NHS,

:08:46. > :08:49.or at least to be acting as if he does love the NHS. In that sense,

:08:49. > :08:54.I'm sure that Ed Miliband is determined to say that we are not

:08:54. > :09:00.at the end of the NHS story, simply because the Government made a U-

:09:00. > :09:04.turn. He wants to keep insisting that David Cameron is to blame,

:09:04. > :09:08.don't blame the doctors or the deficit. In that sense, it's clear

:09:08. > :09:13.that he wants to keep the NHS running. I still slightly struggle

:09:13. > :09:16.to see what his hopers, and it might not be his only Test, making

:09:17. > :09:20.it into the news, because it is not his only Test, but making it into

:09:20. > :09:26.the news with the questions he asks the Prime Minister. I could be

:09:26. > :09:29.proved wrong. The we will watch the news tonight and see if he makes it.

:09:29. > :09:35.Most journalists came in today thinking they had to do something

:09:35. > :09:38.on the strikes. Let's just have a look, while we have been going on,

:09:38. > :09:45.events have been unfolding in Athens. I think we can get live

:09:45. > :09:48.pictures. This is where violence has broken out again. The BBC's

:09:48. > :09:55.Correspondent Jon Sopel, we spoke to him yesterday on the programme.

:09:55. > :10:00.I have just been reading his blog. He says it is a much more brutal,

:10:00. > :10:05.hostile atmosphere than it was yesterday. There was quite a lot of

:10:05. > :10:09.violence them. There have been some real clashes, tear gas. He has

:10:09. > :10:14.described it as looking like frozen ice wafting in front of Parliament.

:10:14. > :10:20.They tried to put up roadblocks to stop MPs or deputies, as they are

:10:20. > :10:27.called in Athens, getting into Parliament to vote. Some pretty bad

:10:27. > :10:32.scenes this morning. We don't expect the result for another hour.

:10:32. > :10:35.It looks like we will, with a majority of five, that the

:10:35. > :10:38.Socialist government will probably get its way. It's quite clear that

:10:38. > :10:44.it hasn't got its way with a lot of people in Athens. Whether they will

:10:44. > :10:48.be able to implement the reforms, the austerity package, that is

:10:48. > :10:52.another big message. The markets are pretty confident it will go

:10:52. > :10:56.through. The euro is looking quite strong this morning. European stock

:10:56. > :11:00.exchanges have risen. I was struck by how the Prime Minister wants to

:11:00. > :11:03.keep talking about Greece, for domestic political reasons. He

:11:03. > :11:07.wants to say to the country, that is what it could be like if we were

:11:07. > :11:10.not doing what we are doing. His opponents will say that is nonsense

:11:10. > :11:15.on economic grounds and they will claim it is nonsense on political

:11:15. > :11:18.grounds, that there is a perfectly good way of reducing the deficit

:11:18. > :11:24.without getting up people's pensions and its legitimate for

:11:24. > :11:30.people to strike. I was struck by the fact that on the eve of his

:11:30. > :11:36.protests, he would quite like people to pick his was an

:11:36. > :11:40.alternative and that he stands against this chaos. The events in

:11:40. > :11:47.Athens, if they go wrong: Even if they go right, from the

:11:47. > :11:53.Government's point of view, it could have a contagious effect

:11:53. > :12:02.across Europe. Is it right that no side of the house bothered to raise

:12:02. > :12:05.the Greeks situation in Parliament today? Well, it is self evidently

:12:05. > :12:12.nonsense to try and argue that there is a comparison between what

:12:12. > :12:15.has happened in Greece and what we are seen in the United Kingdom. --

:12:15. > :12:20.what we are seeing her in the United Kingdom. We have discussed

:12:20. > :12:25.the bail out, we had a statement from the Prime Minister after the

:12:25. > :12:29.EU summit. Sometimes we are a little bit parochial and Prime

:12:29. > :12:35.Ministers questions? I disagree that it is nonsense. I think if you

:12:35. > :12:39.look at Dublin, if you look at Lisbon, Athens, if you look at what

:12:39. > :12:44.those economies are having to go through, what happens if you leave

:12:44. > :12:48.decisions until too late, you allow public sector spending and debt to

:12:48. > :12:52.rise unsustainably, what is forced on you is much deeper spending cuts.

:12:52. > :12:56.What the Greek people are reacting to are things like closing the

:12:56. > :13:02.numbers of schools, big cuts in health spending, state-owned

:13:02. > :13:06.employees in Greece that are having 30% cuts in pay. It is a reminder

:13:06. > :13:12.that choices are inescapable, that we have to deal with the deficit

:13:12. > :13:21.and keep confidence in our economy. If final brief word from Nick?

:13:21. > :13:27.think there are some Euro-sceptic backbenchers who think that what is

:13:27. > :13:32.happening in Rhys could have an effect on Europe, and it is being

:13:33. > :13:36.ignored. I think the Prime Minister and the Chancellor had agreed it is

:13:36. > :13:42.not a conversation to have in public, it is one that you have in

:13:42. > :13:48.private. We will leave it there. We will keep a cross events in Greece.

:13:48. > :13:51.If we get the vote whilst we are there, we will put it to you.

:13:51. > :13:56.A survey published this morning shows that more than half of

:13:56. > :14:00.councillors are worried about the strain on public services caused by

:14:00. > :14:03.cuts to housing benefit. That before I change takes place in the

:14:03. > :14:06.new year. From January, many people will have to move into shared

:14:06. > :14:11.accommodation instead of having their own place because of cuts to

:14:11. > :14:15.housing benefits. David Rowntree, drummer in the band Blair, no

:14:15. > :14:25.upturned Labour activist and solicitor, told me why he thinks

:14:25. > :14:29.

:14:29. > :14:33.it's not a good idea. -- the band Everyone knows how important it is

:14:33. > :14:38.to have some way you can call home. But the Government are trying to

:14:38. > :14:42.push through drastic cuts in housing benefit for those between

:14:42. > :14:46.25 and 35. They are calling it extending the shared accommodation

:14:46. > :14:50.rate. Around 60,000 people are going to be affected. They are

:14:50. > :14:55.going to lose about half their benefits, about �40 a week. Of

:14:55. > :15:01.course, landlords are not going to reduce rent, so people are going to

:15:01. > :15:04.be forced to move. The Government argues that they can move into

:15:04. > :15:07.shared properties. But there simply aren't the properties available.

:15:07. > :15:12.For vulnerable people to move into shared accommodation with strangers

:15:12. > :15:15.simply isn't suitable. Many will end up homeless and on the streets.

:15:16. > :15:19.They include people who have been homeless and are trying to get back

:15:19. > :15:24.on their feet. Dads who are separated and trying to carry on

:15:24. > :15:34.seeing the children. Pregnant women thrown out by their partners. One-

:15:34. > :15:34.

:15:34. > :15:39.in-five is disabled and many more All these people have had to

:15:39. > :15:44.struggle to get the homes they live in. Those homes and the security

:15:44. > :15:48.they provide are at risk from these cuts. The government says they need

:15:48. > :15:52.to save money but we will end up spending more if people become

:15:52. > :15:56.homeless. People at the sharp end will not have a secure place to

:15:56. > :16:00.rebuild their lives. These people often struggled get their voices

:16:00. > :16:04.heard and I do not believe the most vulnerable should bear the brunt of

:16:04. > :16:07.the cuts. The government says we are all in it together but some

:16:07. > :16:12.people seem to be more in it than others. I believe the government

:16:12. > :16:22.should think again. Homelessness is already rising and I for one, do

:16:22. > :16:25.

:16:26. > :16:29.not want to see a return to the David joins us now. At the moment,

:16:29. > :16:32.there are lots of young people who do not qualify for housing benefit

:16:32. > :16:37.and they find themselves having to share houses, that is just an

:16:37. > :16:41.extension of that, isn't it? What the government is proposing that

:16:41. > :16:45.60,000 of the most vulnerable people are turfed out of their

:16:45. > :16:49.accommodation. One of five of them are disabled, they often people

:16:49. > :16:53.made crisis in their lives and they are people who can ill-afford to

:16:53. > :16:58.move at all, let alone the forced to share low-grade accommodation

:16:58. > :17:02.with other people they do not know. Are you objecting in general to the

:17:02. > :17:07.fact that people on low incomes or on housing benefit are having to

:17:07. > :17:12.share or in particular, this sub- group you talk about, those with

:17:12. > :17:16.disabilities? I am objecting to the state of housing in the country. We

:17:16. > :17:21.are in a disgraceful situation. The Tories are planning a change in the

:17:21. > :17:25.housing benefit rules which were essentially turf 60,000 of the most

:17:25. > :17:33.vulnerable people and society out of their homes. We will talk about

:17:33. > :17:38.the specific cases of the disabled, we have Nick here stop you must be

:17:38. > :17:43.leaving the the charge against this. Let me ask you another question

:17:43. > :17:47.before you takeover altogether! The fact is, there are lots of people

:17:47. > :17:51.out there who were not on housing benefit to do not qualify for

:17:51. > :17:54.housing benefit, who face the same situation. We are talking that

:17:54. > :17:59.pensioners who have to take cuts, we are in a dire state in this

:17:59. > :18:04.country, cuts have to be made, what about the young as well as the old?

:18:04. > :18:09.That is the Conservative Office Central Line. Nick, you must be

:18:09. > :18:15.leading the charge against these cuts. You are taking over this

:18:15. > :18:20.interview again, David! Neck, let me ask you another question. David,

:18:20. > :18:24.it is not nice. On the issue of the most vulnerable, there has been a

:18:24. > :18:28.piece of research coming out from another charity saying that they

:18:28. > :18:32.are also worried that those people having to share accommodation.

:18:32. > :18:36.vulnerable are exempted from this proposal specifically. What we know

:18:37. > :18:43.is that people who are Carillion showed accommodation, receipt of

:18:43. > :18:46.housing benefit, two-thirds of those would be entitled to it. They

:18:46. > :18:50.are exercising a choice to be in shared accommodation. If you are

:18:50. > :18:55.not in receipt of housing benefit, if you are working and clearly

:18:55. > :18:58.struggling, and you cannot possibly expect that you can afford

:18:58. > :19:02.accommodation to be living on your own and you are going into shared

:19:02. > :19:07.accommodation, as young people do, particularly in places like London

:19:07. > :19:11.because the prices, why should we expect that the state should be

:19:11. > :19:13.subsidising people to be in their own accommodation. The whole

:19:14. > :19:20.housing benefit system has spiralled out of control. We are

:19:20. > :19:25.paying benefit up to absurd levels, up to �100,000. If it has had a

:19:25. > :19:29.very inflationary effect and it is simply not fair. You stated that

:19:29. > :19:33.position clearly but I want you to be categoric on this programme,

:19:33. > :19:36.that subsection that David is talking about that Shelter is

:19:36. > :19:39.worried about, that councils are worried about, those who have

:19:39. > :19:44.disabilities or mental health issues, you are saying in no way

:19:44. > :19:48.ever, under your stewardship are they going to be forced to share

:19:48. > :19:54.accommodation? The vulnerable are excluded. We have to look at these

:19:54. > :19:58.things clearly on a case-by-case basis. The principal stance and

:19:58. > :20:02.there is a transition fund to assist people when necessary. We do

:20:02. > :20:06.not believe anybody is going to be made homeless by this policy. This

:20:06. > :20:09.is a good example of the sort of decisions that were not taken by

:20:09. > :20:13.the previous government. They have to be taken both to ensure we have

:20:13. > :20:16.a grip on spending, because the costs are spiralling out of control

:20:16. > :20:20.but also on the grounds of fairness as well. A lot of people watching

:20:20. > :20:25.this will say, I might quite like to be in a flat of my own as well

:20:25. > :20:31.but the state is not paying me to be in a flat of my own. For let me

:20:31. > :20:37.come back to, David, as well as former -- being formally in Blur

:20:37. > :20:42.and as a solicitor, you are also a Labour activist, under the Darling

:20:42. > :20:47.plan, there would be cuts as well, isn't it opportunistic to make this

:20:47. > :20:51.a political issue because your party would do similar things?

:20:51. > :20:55.disagree that we would do similar things. Let me take you back to the

:20:55. > :20:59.answer that nobody would be made homeless, how can you say you are

:20:59. > :21:02.going to shift 60,000 people out of their accommodation, force them

:21:02. > :21:07.into shared accommodation which does not exist but nobody would be

:21:07. > :21:10.made homeless? We do not believe that is the case. We have done the

:21:10. > :21:18.impact assessments. We have a transition fund to address these

:21:18. > :21:24.issues. 1.8 billion cups. feedback we have been having is it

:21:25. > :21:29.is possible to accommodate people in revised accommodation. Of course,

:21:29. > :21:33.we do not want to make people homeless. Half of the councillors

:21:33. > :21:37.who were asked said they are concerned that in your emotive

:21:37. > :21:44.language, they would be turfed out into the streets. We do not

:21:44. > :21:48.believe... Are the council has not telling the truth? There have been

:21:48. > :21:53.charities which have said that their definition of homelessness is

:21:53. > :21:58.not the same one that your eye would be applying. Very, very

:21:58. > :22:02.briefly, Hilary Benn, your thoughts on this? I think there is genuine

:22:02. > :22:10.concern about what the impact of this will be. I am not convinced

:22:10. > :22:13.that the government has thought through the context of this. I

:22:13. > :22:17.think we should listen very carefully to those who have

:22:17. > :22:20.expertise, particularly in relation to those who are vulnerable and say,

:22:20. > :22:24.has the government really thought this through? Are people not going

:22:24. > :22:29.to end up on the streets because we do not want to go back to what it

:22:29. > :22:33.was like in the 1980s when we last had a Conservative government.

:22:33. > :22:37.Now, are you nostalgic for the smoke filled rooms of the past? I

:22:37. > :22:42.didn't think so. We are not talking at last year's coalition

:22:42. > :22:47.negotiations either. A cross-party group of MPs want the government to

:22:47. > :22:52.review the complete ban on smoking in pubs and clubs. They say the ban

:22:52. > :22:55.has hit licensed premises, 7% of which have closed in the three

:22:55. > :23:00.years since the ban came in. Whether there is a link is another

:23:00. > :23:05.matter. I am joined by the Liberal Democrat MP John Hemming. Thanks

:23:06. > :23:13.for joining us. I am in the hot seat at the moment! If it sets on

:23:13. > :23:16.fire, and I allowed to stand up? don't think so. Let's get to the

:23:16. > :23:20.first question. The smoking ban, the Office of National Statistics

:23:20. > :23:28.brought out a poll in March of this year and they said City 3% of

:23:28. > :23:34.smokers want to give up smoking, 81 % of smokers want to -- 81 set of

:23:34. > :23:38.the public agree with smoking ban. Why change it? When I voted for the

:23:38. > :23:43.smoking ban, I argued there was a logic of having some smoky rooms

:23:43. > :23:48.with proper ventilation. What we have our ramshackle sheds in

:23:48. > :23:52.gardens. For me as a non-smoker, it would be nice to go into the garden

:23:52. > :23:57.of a pub and not breathing smoke. Eight get silly when you have these

:23:57. > :24:05.ramshackle devices, he did with these very environmentally

:24:05. > :24:11.unfriendly heating devices. Your visual exercise off the bar full of

:24:11. > :24:18.smoke is not what is proposed, it is ventilated smoking rooms.

:24:18. > :24:23.you sure the impact is as wide as you suggest? A Department of Health

:24:23. > :24:29.report said implementation had gone well, 41 % reported a positive

:24:29. > :24:33.impact on the company, only 3% negative. Generally, it has been

:24:33. > :24:37.good. I support the general smoking ban. I think there is an argument

:24:37. > :24:42.for having ventilated smoking ruins which is sort of what we are

:24:42. > :24:46.getting but it is a shambolic system at the moment where you have

:24:46. > :24:50.these lean tos and sheds in gardens and they are heated by heating the

:24:50. > :24:56.air. There has to be a better way than doing that. Although the

:24:56. > :25:00.smoking ban has caused problems, it is not just the smoking ban. For

:25:00. > :25:06.instance, the fact that people get very cheap alcohol from other

:25:06. > :25:11.places, that has an effect as well. You have to look at the issue of,

:25:11. > :25:15.do we accept the silly situation we have at the moment with shacks and

:25:15. > :25:19.strange marquees in gardens or should we say, let's be realistic,

:25:19. > :25:25.not around the Barca the visual you have got behind me would not be

:25:25. > :25:30.what we are talking about but why not consider the option of having

:25:30. > :25:37.ventilated smoking rooms? What about the staff who have to work

:25:37. > :25:41.there? You would not have the staff at the bar where there is smoke,

:25:41. > :25:45.they would be popping in and out of the room. For people like me who

:25:45. > :25:50.are non-smokers it would be nice to go into a pub and not go through a

:25:50. > :25:56.gaggle of smokers at the entrance. Thank you and thank you for being a

:25:56. > :26:01.good sport. It did not set on fire so I am quite happy! Green screens

:26:01. > :26:06.are good things! OK, don't get carried away.

:26:06. > :26:11.Where are you on this, Hilary Benn? I voted on the smoking ban and I

:26:11. > :26:16.would leave it as it is. As John has said, there are gardens. People

:26:16. > :26:19.have made their own arrangements. People have found their way around

:26:19. > :26:23.it. There are bigger changes affecting people in pubs and clubs,

:26:23. > :26:27.including the availability of much cheaper alcohol in supermarkets.

:26:27. > :26:32.There has been a move away from pubs, I'm not sure you can get a

:26:32. > :26:36.link between pub closures and the smoking ban? I don't think that is

:26:36. > :26:40.the only factor. It may be a factor in part but the overwhelming

:26:40. > :26:45.evidence of the benefit of the smoking ban, the damage it has cost

:26:45. > :26:50.the NHS, I stand by what I did when I voted for it. And you voted for

:26:50. > :26:55.it as well? No, I did not. My understanding is the government do

:26:55. > :27:01.not wish to review this. I voted against the smoking ban because and

:27:01. > :27:05.the end, I was unhappy about telling people what they should do.

:27:05. > :27:09.One of the things that was an overriding argument for many people

:27:09. > :27:13.is as Hilary described, the staff and the health of the staff which

:27:13. > :27:18.is something I had to wrestle a bit. If the opportunity arose again, I

:27:18. > :27:23.would think hard how I would vote in future. Time to pick you out of

:27:23. > :27:29.your misery. We can give you the Guess The Year answer. Castro

:27:29. > :27:37.taking power was a clue, so was the British Collection and the opening

:27:37. > :27:42.of the M1. It was a 1951 -- the British election. The Tories' won

:27:43. > :27:51.by a landslide. It is a while since you have won by a landslide, choose

:27:51. > :28:00.the winner. Who reads it out? read it out. In case you read the

:28:00. > :28:10.address, we will all be in jail. Chris Sauber from London, you are

:28:10. > :28:15.the one. He was playing the piano in that clip? Maybe it was Russ

:28:15. > :28:20.Conway. We can showed pictures from Greece. There is a lot of violence

:28:20. > :28:29.and tear gas. We are told the vote itself will not come in the

:28:29. > :28:35.parliament until at least another 20 minutes. The BBC News Channel

:28:35. > :28:39.and BBC News will give you that result. Tune in for that. Very

:28:39. > :28:44.nasty scenes of the right place outside the Greek parliament.

:28:44. > :28:48.That is it for today. Thank you for our guests, Hilary and neck. We