:00:23. > :00:28.Hello and welcome to The Daily Politics.
:00:28. > :00:30.What should we make of last night's by-election? Labour held on in
:00:30. > :00:33.Inverclyde. But the SNP surged, slashed their majority, and helped
:00:33. > :00:39.themselves to virtually the entire Liberal Democrat vote in the
:00:39. > :00:42.process. The quiet man is turning up the
:00:42. > :00:45.volume on migrant workers. Iain Duncan Smith says half the new jobs
:00:45. > :00:48.we create go to foreigners from outside the EU. So is it time to
:00:48. > :00:51.get a grip on immigration? And the most dangerous man in
:00:51. > :00:54.Britain turned national treasure - Tony Benn will be here to tell us
:00:54. > :01:04.why he changed a law that threatened to destroy his career 50
:01:04. > :01:04.
:01:04. > :01:09.With me today are Andrew Pearce from the Mail and The Mirror's
:01:09. > :01:12.Kevin Maguire, welcome to the show. First up, Labour will be breathing
:01:12. > :01:15.a sigh of relief after the results came in for the Inverclyde by-
:01:15. > :01:23.election. It managed to retain the seat with 15,118 votes over the
:01:23. > :01:30.SNP's 9,280. The Conservatives came third with 2,784, and it was a bad
:01:30. > :01:38.night for the Liberal Democrats who only managed 627. At the last
:01:38. > :01:42.election they got just over 5,000 votes. UKIP came last with 288. So
:01:42. > :01:46.whilst Labour won their vote, its share of the vote was down two
:01:47. > :01:49.points. The SNP was up 15. The Tories, down two points and the
:01:49. > :01:58.Liberal Democrats were down 11 points, as around four in every
:01:58. > :02:01.five of their voters deserted them. Kevin Maguire, disastrous for the
:02:02. > :02:05.Liberal Democrats, and the pain goes on for them, doesn't it?
:02:05. > :02:12.Absolutely, they seem to take all the blame that everything the
:02:12. > :02:14.coalition does. That vote is considered to be wrong. They
:02:14. > :02:20.thought they were going to win the seat in Oldham, they fell behind.
:02:20. > :02:23.In Barnsley, they came six and lost the deposit. It is disastrous and
:02:23. > :02:29.they are getting all the blame, while the Conservatives seemed to
:02:29. > :02:33.sail on. It wasn't great for Labour, they sort of stood still, lost a
:02:33. > :02:37.bit, and the SNP picked up those Liberal Democrat votes. I think
:02:37. > :02:40.they will have been pretty relieved to have won with 5,000 to spare,
:02:41. > :02:45.the SNP would have liked to have won that, particularly because the
:02:45. > :02:49.Queen is opening the Scottish Parliament today. It is a disaster
:02:49. > :02:54.for the Lib Dems. They chased and experienced, light weight candidate
:02:54. > :03:00.-- they chose an experience -- and inexperienced, light weight
:03:00. > :03:07.In they are in real trouble north of the border and Charles Kennedy
:03:07. > :03:10.could even lose his seat. It is Labour and the SNP north of the
:03:10. > :03:16.border now. A lot of questions swirling around Ed Miliband, quite
:03:16. > :03:20.rightly, about his leadership, but he has successfully negotiated four
:03:20. > :03:24.tricky by-elections. They did not do very well in those Holyrood
:03:24. > :03:28.elections. No, which is what makes Inverclyde even better. They got
:03:28. > :03:31.hammered in Holyrood when the SNP got a majority on an electoral
:03:31. > :03:35.system which was designed to stop any party get the majority. The
:03:35. > :03:39.reason they got the majority was that all the Liberal Democrat vote
:03:39. > :03:42.seem to have left the Liberal Democrats and gone to the SNP.
:03:42. > :03:46.Tories will be quietly pleased. They want Ed Miliband to have some
:03:46. > :03:50.victories now. The last thing the Tories want is the Labour Party to
:03:50. > :03:55.get rid of a leader who they think is very beatable. Looking at his
:03:55. > :03:59.personal poll ratings, you can see why. David Cameron won't be too
:03:59. > :04:01.displeased. Fair enough. Hundreds of thousands of teachers
:04:01. > :04:04.and civil servants went on strike yesterday. But although that was
:04:04. > :04:06.all about their pensions, many public sector workers are also
:04:06. > :04:12.worried about their jobs. The Government is spending less in
:04:12. > :04:15.order to pay down the deficit. And that could mean job losses in some
:04:15. > :04:18.areas. What ministers hope, of course, is that the private sector
:04:18. > :04:21.takes off as a result and overall more people are employed in British
:04:21. > :04:27.industry and small businesses. But that's not going to help much if
:04:27. > :04:30.most of those new jobs go to those coming from overseas. So, today,
:04:30. > :04:36.the Work and Pensions Secretary, Iain Duncan Smith, is making a plea
:04:36. > :04:39.to British businesses. Currently, youth unemployment stands at 19%
:04:39. > :04:49.and Mr Duncan Smith claims that more than half the new jobs we
:04:49. > :05:05.
:05:05. > :05:08.create are going to people coming In short, he wants British jobs for
:05:08. > :05:13.British Workers. A slogan we've heard somewhere before.
:05:13. > :05:17.This is our vision, Britain leading the global economy, by skills,
:05:17. > :05:20.creativity, enterprise, flexibility, investment in transport and
:05:20. > :05:24.infrastructure, a world leader in science, financial and business
:05:24. > :05:29.services, in energy and the environment, from nuclear to
:05:29. > :05:33.renewables. A world leader in the creative industries, and a world
:05:33. > :05:43.leader in modern manufacturing as well, drawing on the talents of all,
:05:43. > :05:45.
:05:45. > :05:49.to create British jobs for British That was Gordon Brown, from a
:05:49. > :05:54.conference a few years ago. We are joined by Mark Serwotka and Justine
:05:54. > :05:59.Greening, welcome to both of you. Marks are Walker, urging British
:05:59. > :06:06.businesses to give youngsters here jobs before falling back on work
:06:07. > :06:09.from abroad, music to your ears? -- Mark Serwotka. Not necessarily. We
:06:10. > :06:14.have a million people unemployed and that is a real problem. We need
:06:14. > :06:19.to create jobs. This is about giving the job that existed British
:06:19. > :06:23.youngsters, surely you support that? I support creating jobs, not
:06:23. > :06:27.having a policy that could end up raising real racial tensions. I
:06:27. > :06:30.think when there are people who are unemployed, we have to be very
:06:30. > :06:36.careful that we don't get them to blame people who are immigrants,
:06:36. > :06:39.rather than ask the question, why aren't we creating more jobs?
:06:39. > :06:45.would it create racial tensions if Iain Duncan Smith is talking about
:06:45. > :06:49.people from outside the EU? Why wouldn't youngsters from Britain be
:06:49. > :06:54.given a chance ahead of them? not saying people shouldn't have a
:06:54. > :06:59.chance. I am saying, we need to create more jobs. Last year, I was
:06:59. > :07:04.seriously ill in hospital for six weeks. When I looked at the people
:07:04. > :07:08.who treated me, the porters, the cleaners, the Net is -- nesses,
:07:08. > :07:12.consultants, doctors, they came from all over the world -- the
:07:12. > :07:15.nurses. It made me think that our diversity is something we should be
:07:15. > :07:20.celebrating, not be close to whipping up potential racial
:07:20. > :07:24.tensions. To answer that point, will that policy whip up racial
:07:24. > :07:28.tensions? I think it is plain common sense. We have 5 million
:07:28. > :07:31.people who are either unemployed, or on some sort of incapacity
:07:31. > :07:36.benefit. The overwhelming majority of them want to have a chance of
:07:36. > :07:40.getting a job. Surely it makes sense that for them, and for public
:07:40. > :07:44.finances, and for the broader communities which they are part of,
:07:44. > :07:49.it makes sense to say we should be trying to make sure they have a
:07:49. > :07:53.fair shot at getting some of the jobs that are being created. What
:07:53. > :07:56.is wrong with plain common sense? You can't take that line in
:07:56. > :08:02.isolation from everything else that is being done. Merthyr Tydfil,
:08:02. > :08:06.where I went to school, 1700 people unemployed, 39 jobs advertised in
:08:06. > :08:10.the Jobcentre. The people they need job creation. If we create jobs,
:08:10. > :08:15.which is what I would like to see, decent, well-paid jobs, that is the
:08:15. > :08:20.type of future I want to see. In that sense, I want British used to
:08:20. > :08:24.get on the jobs ladder, but I wanted because of job creation. --
:08:24. > :08:28.British views. Isn't the problem for the government that they can't
:08:28. > :08:38.force businesses to do this? Beijing is an admission that they
:08:38. > :08:41.
:08:41. > :08:44.can't do anything. -- the word, Do you agree there should be a
:08:44. > :08:48.tougher immigration policy? That is what we are putting in place right
:08:48. > :08:51.now. The other half of this is making sure that people coming
:08:51. > :08:55.through school have got the right skills that companies need. Too
:08:56. > :08:58.often in the past, they haven't. It is about schooling and education,
:08:58. > :09:02.but work placements and apprenticeships. That is why we
:09:02. > :09:11.have such a big focus on that. Talking about education youngsters
:09:11. > :09:15.in schools, -- educating youngsters. The day of action yesterday. It was
:09:15. > :09:19.a fantastic success. In terms of public support, which is finely
:09:19. > :09:23.balanced, how do you measure that? It was a success, even in the terms
:09:23. > :09:27.of rumbling the government. We saw a government in disarray. Francis
:09:27. > :09:32.Maude had to be withdrawn from the field, Danny Alexander introduced
:09:32. > :09:36.as a late substitute. He changed the script, started reinterpreting
:09:36. > :09:46.Lord Hutton's report. It exposes that the government have no eye for
:09:46. > :09:46.
:09:46. > :09:49.the detail, which is why negotiations were unsuccessful.
:09:49. > :09:54.is finely balanced, are you sure that you are going to maintain
:09:54. > :09:58.public support for strike action? think we will because I think the
:09:58. > :10:03.public see this as a thin end of the wedge. They see it as a part of
:10:03. > :10:07.austerity packages that target the vulnerable, those in welfare and
:10:07. > :10:09.public sector workers, and they feel it is unfair. It is difficult
:10:09. > :10:13.for David Cameron and the government to judge the mood of the
:10:13. > :10:20.country. Where is the government prepared to negotiate? That is what
:10:20. > :10:25.everybody says they want, they negotiated or discussed settlement.
:10:25. > :10:29.-- a negotiated or discussed. Hutton came up with a set of
:10:29. > :10:31.recommendations to make sure that public sector pensions are
:10:31. > :10:36.sustainable going forward. Those recommendations are what we are
:10:36. > :10:41.discussing with the unions? Where will you negotiate? On the increase
:10:41. > :10:46.in the age they have to work? On the contributions? Or the tactical
:10:46. > :10:51.scheme they will have when they retire? Which are negotiable?
:10:51. > :10:55.talks are ongoing, they are covering a whole range of this --
:10:55. > :10:59.different aspects of how we can make sure we still have public
:10:59. > :11:03.sector pensions among the best in the world. Also for the taxpayer,
:11:03. > :11:07.that they are sustainable as well. One of the most important points
:11:07. > :11:11.that Lord Hutton made was that you could not make a 50 year bet that
:11:11. > :11:15.the schemes we have in place would be sustainable if then. For the
:11:15. > :11:19.people working in the public sector, they deserve to know that the
:11:19. > :11:24.pension scheme they will get when they retire is one they can rely on.
:11:24. > :11:28.That is what we are trying to sort out. It is plain common sense.
:11:28. > :11:32.this going to be resolved? Not in the short term, because the
:11:32. > :11:39.government won't budge. They won't say if they are going to compromise.
:11:39. > :11:43.The other unions have demands. The lower rate of inflation, CPI
:11:43. > :11:49.against RPI and so on. David Cameron said the public pensions
:11:49. > :11:53.work broken. That is not the case. The Hutton report confirms that.
:11:53. > :11:58.There is a battle for public opinion, he thought it was a home
:11:58. > :12:01.win. The rally was like a revolt of Middle England. There were rebuked
:12:01. > :12:05.-- lots of young women who you would not expect to be on strike,
:12:05. > :12:09.demonstrating. I think the fairness argument will seek out into the
:12:09. > :12:16.wider population. I think it was about 20% of civil servants who
:12:16. > :12:20.went on strike. It was not a triumph. I think Downing Street...
:12:20. > :12:24.They are hugely relieved because they do not think public opinion is
:12:24. > :12:29.on the side of the trade unions. have covered industrial disputes
:12:29. > :12:34.for 25 years and the employer always claims to be relieved.
:12:34. > :12:38.didn't have that sort of feeling of a standstill. Newspapers and some
:12:38. > :12:42.broadcasters, whooping it up as if the world was going to end... That
:12:42. > :12:47.wasn't the case. It was Dave Prentis from Unison talking about a
:12:47. > :12:51.general strike. It was a 24 hour strike, designed to draw the
:12:51. > :12:54.public's attention to the issue, and in that it was spectacularly
:12:54. > :12:58.successful. The one thing it might achieve is that the ministers we
:12:58. > :13:03.are talking to might bother to read the report, because they had not
:13:03. > :13:09.before. Is that the sum total of the success? Is it going to yield
:13:09. > :13:19.results? They are two issues. One is the sub-standard issue about
:13:19. > :13:23.
:13:23. > :13:27.Does yesterday's strike make it closer? I think it is -- the answer
:13:27. > :13:32.is no. The way we are going to get through it is by sitting down and
:13:32. > :13:36.talking. Many unions yesterday were not on strike. Only about 10% of
:13:36. > :13:42.civil servants went on strike. The overwhelming which majority put the
:13:42. > :13:45.public first. The figure of 10% is a joke. We will now show the public
:13:45. > :13:51.that ministers have to engage on the detail and we shouldn't be
:13:51. > :13:56.forced to work longer, pay more and get less. More meetings on that,
:13:56. > :13:59.from today. Thank you. This week's change-maker is well known to
:13:59. > :14:02.anyone who's followed politics over the years. Tony Benn's Peerages Act
:14:02. > :14:05.of 1963 is probably not his biggest legacy but, without it, this
:14:05. > :14:15."persistent commoner", as he likes to call himself, might never have
:14:15. > :14:20.
:14:20. > :14:24.got his career off the ground. This is the central lobby of
:14:24. > :14:30.Parliament, and the man we're featuring today is a famous, long-
:14:30. > :14:34.standing parliamentarian. He went from the Commons to the Lords, then
:14:34. > :14:41.back to the Commons, before he retired. He did not change the law
:14:41. > :14:44.himself, but the law was changed because of the things he did.
:14:44. > :14:50.There were public opinion shifts, and then the guys in parliament
:14:50. > :14:55.realised they had to concede. Benn's father was an MP, and in
:14:55. > :15:00.1941, for political reasons, he accepted a hereditary peerage. This
:15:00. > :15:04.Act would not have affected his second son's political carrier
:15:04. > :15:09.until his first son was tragically killed in the war. From then on, he
:15:09. > :15:13.knew that one day a problem would arise, since a peer would not sit
:15:13. > :15:19.in the Commons. For over a decade, he fought tirelessly to renounce
:15:19. > :15:23.his title, but events overtook him. My dad was taken ill in Parliament
:15:23. > :15:31.and I went with him to the hospital. He died and I was with him when he
:15:31. > :15:36.died. And I knew at that moment that a situation would develop. So,
:15:36. > :15:41.I rang up the Speaker, and the Speaker said, you can't come any
:15:41. > :15:46.more. I said, I'm a member of parliament. He said, sorry, you're
:15:46. > :15:56.disqualified. Losing passes and access to the Commons, Tony Benn
:15:56. > :16:00.took the unusual step of fighting anyway, and won. We had a very hard
:16:00. > :16:07.fight. The Conservatives was saying, there is no point in voting for him,
:16:07. > :16:12.he will be disqualified. I wrote to Winston Churchill and asked for his
:16:12. > :16:17.support, I said, now you're free, can you support me? He sent me a
:16:17. > :16:23.letter of support. I must be the only Labour candidate who has had
:16:23. > :16:27.that. But winning wasn't enough, as the newly elected MP discovered.
:16:27. > :16:31.When I went to the door of the House, as a new member, the
:16:32. > :16:38.doorkeeper said, you can't come in, and I said, have you had
:16:38. > :16:42.instruction to use force to keep me out? And he said yes. I was not
:16:42. > :16:48.interested in a fight, so I turned away. And the man I had beaten took
:16:48. > :16:51.my seat. Footing the years, his opponent held the seat as Tony Benn
:16:51. > :16:53.fought in the courts at his own expense to change the law. But
:16:54. > :16:59.changes in the Tory TANYA STEVENSON: Proved more important.
:16:59. > :17:02.The Government changed the law at the time because they wanted Alec
:17:02. > :17:06.Douglas-Home to become Prime Minister, and he was a peer. But
:17:06. > :17:10.the real argument was, did my constituency have the right to
:17:10. > :17:16.choose who they wanted to represent them? That choice was finally
:17:16. > :17:20.recognise, the new law allowing him to renounce the peerage and fight a
:17:20. > :17:26.by-election - again - and win - again. They will not lock the door
:17:26. > :17:30.this time. It was a significant change, but the 1963 peerages Act
:17:30. > :17:35.has affected few actual people. But for Tony Benn, it has an actual
:17:35. > :17:40.value. If I went to the dentist and he started drilling my teeth, and
:17:40. > :17:44.he said, I am not a dentist, but my father was a very good dentist, I
:17:44. > :17:49.think on the whole I would go to a different man to do my teeth.
:17:49. > :17:54.anyone ever suggest in your career that you should move to the Lords?
:17:54. > :17:58.When I left Parliament in 2001, a hint was dropped, was there
:17:58. > :18:04.anything I would like? I think they might have been happy to make me
:18:04. > :18:09.appear, but I would not be seen dead in the place. -- to make me a
:18:09. > :18:13.peer. Looking and listening to that film, it was pretty brutal, the way
:18:13. > :18:19.they barred you from the House of Commons, I had no idea that that is
:18:19. > :18:23.how they dealt with it. Well, I was not the first person who complained.
:18:23. > :18:27.Quentin Hogg inherited a peerage in 1950 and tried to keep it and stay
:18:27. > :18:30.in the Commons and they turned him down. So it was not a brand new
:18:30. > :18:35.issue, but I decided the the Government thing to do was to fight
:18:35. > :18:38.it. I studied peerage history, and I realised that over the years,
:18:38. > :18:42.governments could do what they like. In the Middle Ages there was one
:18:42. > :18:47.man who killed his father because he wanted his title, so they kept
:18:47. > :18:52.him out, and there are a lot of other examples. I put it to them on
:18:52. > :18:56.a personal level and they turned me down, and then I had another by-
:18:56. > :19:02.election. Were you surprised about the way the Houses of Parliament
:19:02. > :19:07.behaved, bearing in mind, this was not the will of Tony Benn.
:19:07. > :19:11.stuffy old British establishment. Of course it was because it was
:19:11. > :19:16.Tony Benn II, it was a little bit personal. And you got the backing
:19:16. > :19:20.of the opposition, not just Winston Churchill, but also of the Tory
:19:20. > :19:23.party? Well, one or two Conservatives supported me, but
:19:24. > :19:28.most didn't. There were some people in the Labour Party who wondered
:19:28. > :19:31.whether it wasn't a diversion. So you were looking for support from
:19:31. > :19:35.various sources, but it was mainly my constituents that made the
:19:35. > :19:42.difference. You have said that politics should be about policies
:19:42. > :19:47.and not personalities. And yet you are most treasured now for your
:19:47. > :19:50.personality, not necessarily for the issues. In that case, it was
:19:50. > :19:52.the constituency that won. They voted for me when I was
:19:52. > :19:57.disqualified, they have the right to choose what they wanted to
:19:57. > :20:00.represent them, that was the real issue. The fact that I was thrown
:20:00. > :20:05.out and unemployed was a minor question. You know what the media
:20:05. > :20:09.are like. I have no idea what you're talking about! But don't you
:20:09. > :20:15.think that Tony Blair and his treasured as a personality now, not
:20:15. > :20:20.just for the issues he has campaigned about? -- Tony Benn.
:20:20. > :20:23.including my son, who used to vilify you 30 years ago, but
:20:23. > :20:27.yesterday we went on the rally, and you were cheered the moment you
:20:27. > :20:31.appeared. But it is a fascinating battle you fought, because there
:20:31. > :20:35.are so many people now lobbying party political leaders to try to
:20:36. > :20:39.get into the House of Lords, demanding peerages - you gave it up.
:20:39. > :20:43.But it is unfinished business in many ways. You go to the House of
:20:43. > :20:47.Lords, it is the upper chamber, the Commons is the lower chamber. It is
:20:47. > :20:54.very opulent and gilded, it is the MPs who have to go to the House of
:20:54. > :20:59.Lords for the Queen's Speech. almost 50 years later, we have
:20:59. > :21:04.still got 94 hereditary peers, which is astonishing. Are you
:21:04. > :21:08.amazed that we are still looking at the issue of House of Lords reform?
:21:08. > :21:12.When I started this you could not get into the Lord's unless you were
:21:12. > :21:17.a hereditary peer. Now, you can't get in and anyone can get out. So
:21:17. > :21:21.it did bring about a bit of a change. But the Lords is still
:21:21. > :21:25.treated as the Upper House, though how anyone can except a Parliament
:21:25. > :21:29.whether membership is made up of people appointed by the Prime
:21:29. > :21:35.Minister and not elected at all cost an incredible to me.
:21:35. > :21:41.coalition is reducing the number of MPs from 650 to 600. And yet since
:21:41. > :21:47.the election he has created nearly 120 new peers. Why did you not stay
:21:47. > :21:50.in the Lords? I never went near the place. Why was that? I believe in
:21:50. > :21:54.democracy, it is very straightforward. I have been
:21:54. > :21:58.elected for Bristol several times. I was very proud to be a member of
:21:58. > :22:02.Parliament. But you could have helped your party in the House of
:22:02. > :22:07.Lords? And I just did not believe in it. I believe in democracy and I
:22:07. > :22:11.believe in elected parliaments, I know that is a controversial view.
:22:11. > :22:18.Tony Benn, thank you very much. Our weekly reminder now of what else
:22:18. > :22:22.has been happening in the world of politics over the last seven days.
:22:22. > :22:26.Here's The Week In 60 Seconds. The Greek government survived
:22:26. > :22:30.another make-or-break vote in the Athens parliament. Violence in the
:22:30. > :22:34.streets did not stop Greek MPs backing a new austerity package.
:22:34. > :22:38.Protests, too, in England and Wales, as strikes closed thousands of
:22:38. > :22:42.schools. Public sector workers are up in arms about changes to their
:22:42. > :22:47.pensions. The Chinese premier was on a visit
:22:47. > :22:51.to the UK. David Cameron announced �1.4 billion in trade deals, but
:22:51. > :22:56.the Chinese leader said the British should stop finger-pointing over
:22:56. > :22:59.human rights. What he thought of the sword waving was not recorded.
:22:59. > :23:04.Scottish students will continue to get free education in Scottish
:23:04. > :23:10.universities. For students from elsewhere in the UK, fees will rise
:23:10. > :23:14.to �9,000 -- to up to �9,000. And Ken Clarke announced that it is OK
:23:14. > :23:18.to hit a burglar with a burglar. If you were a grand mother, you can go
:23:18. > :23:21.even further. If an old lady picks up a kitchen knife and sticks it in
:23:21. > :23:30.the 18-year-old burglar, she has not committed a criminal offence,
:23:30. > :23:35.and we will make that clear. We saw Greece and the chaos there -
:23:35. > :23:38.we're joined now by Sharon Bowles, who was named recently as one of
:23:38. > :23:41.the most powerful people in the world in the field of financial
:23:41. > :23:44.regulation, because she chairs the European Parliament's Economic and
:23:44. > :23:48.Monetary Affairs Committee. More powerful even than George Osborne -
:23:48. > :23:53.surely not! On the subject of Greece, to a lot of people from the
:23:53. > :24:00.outside, it seems unsustainable for Greece to remain as part of the
:24:00. > :24:04.eurozone... I think the problems of any exit of
:24:04. > :24:09.Greece from the eurozone, or any other attempt at breaking up the
:24:09. > :24:14.eurozone, would cause ramifications that would be bad for everybody.
:24:14. > :24:18.Why would it not just cut the losses, and Greece could bail-out
:24:18. > :24:20.and devalue their currency and that would be that? Technically they
:24:20. > :24:24.would be in default or more of their loans, which would be very
:24:24. > :24:28.expensive for them. And of course it would be very expensive for many
:24:28. > :24:32.of Europe's banks. Especially for those which are exposed to Greek
:24:32. > :24:38.banks. And it would impact the UK severely. Although we may not have
:24:38. > :24:42.a lot of Greek sovereign debt, we are exposed through our banks to
:24:42. > :24:48.other banks which are exposed. So it could be a Lehman Brothers
:24:48. > :24:51.scenario all over again. How do you justify it to Europeans, not least
:24:51. > :24:55.the Germans, that they should continue drip-feeding the Greek
:24:55. > :24:58.economy with no guarantee that things will improve? There are
:24:58. > :25:02.several branches to this. First of all it has got to be understood
:25:02. > :25:06.that Germany gains 100 billion euros a year from being in the euro,
:25:06. > :25:10.which is pegged at a much more competitive level than it would
:25:10. > :25:13.have been if it was the Deutschmark. So, they are benefited handsomely
:25:13. > :25:20.from being in the euro, partly because less competitive countries
:25:20. > :25:24.like Spain and Portugal are in it. What about us? We are
:25:24. > :25:27.interconnected to it because they are our largest trading partners.
:25:27. > :25:32.We do not benefit to the same extent as the Germans, in that
:25:32. > :25:35.sense? Know, because we are not in the euro, but we are linked to it.
:25:36. > :25:40.And we are linked to the economies in the euro. So the demise of the
:25:40. > :25:49.euro in any shape or form would be harmful for the UK. There you go,
:25:49. > :25:52.it would be very harmful for us, Andrew Pierce... It is harmful now,
:25:52. > :25:55.because we are under writing Greek debt. The European Union budget is
:25:55. > :25:59.increasing and we have massively increased our support to the IMF to
:26:00. > :26:05.help pay for the bail-outs. It is ironic because we did not join the
:26:05. > :26:10.euro, thank God, something at least we can thank Gordon Brown for.
:26:10. > :26:13.Because it is a basket case. If the euro is a basket case, would you
:26:14. > :26:18.support one of the plans which has been put forward, Kevin Maguire,
:26:19. > :26:22.for example, the French plan to try to keep Greece afloat until it can
:26:22. > :26:27.pay back some of its debts, or would you think it should be cut
:26:27. > :26:31.off? No, I think that is a better way forward. Christine Lagarde, the
:26:31. > :26:36.French woman running the IMF, George Osborne backed her, and she
:26:36. > :26:40.backs that policy, to keep Greece in. Before we write of the euro,
:26:40. > :26:44.and it is suffering terrible strains and stresses, people who go
:26:44. > :26:48.on holiday in France and Spain and Portugal, there are finding their
:26:48. > :26:54.pound is buying a lot less than it did a few years ago, because the
:26:54. > :26:59.euro has not collapsed. Are you seriously saying we should join the
:26:59. > :27:02.Eurocamp? I did not say that, but you're writing it off. If I had a
:27:02. > :27:09.pound for every time I heard a right winger saying, it is
:27:09. > :27:13.collapsing, it is gone. They're right, it is collapsing. Would you
:27:13. > :27:17.like to see Britain joining the euro? I think it is off the agenda
:27:17. > :27:20.for some time now because there are going to be fundamental reforms
:27:20. > :27:24.which draw the economies closer together. It is a kind of closeness
:27:24. > :27:28.which I think the UK would be less than comfortable with. That is one
:27:28. > :27:32.of the main reasons we did not join in the first place. But you would
:27:32. > :27:36.support the idea of Britain joining? In the long term, if they
:27:36. > :27:40.can get the euro fixed as it should have been in the first place, many
:27:40. > :27:44.things which the UK said would need to be done, then in the long term,
:27:44. > :27:47.I would see that the UK could join, but it is not a current political
:27:47. > :27:52.debate. What do you support in terms of dealing with the Greek
:27:52. > :27:56.situation? I think the European side of the bail-out has to be made
:27:56. > :28:01.more sustainable and affordable, not just the Greece, but for
:28:01. > :28:05.Portugal and Ireland. The rate of interest which are being charged...
:28:05. > :28:08.So that the countries which are making loans - Don't forget, these
:28:08. > :28:13.are loans - countries are making a nice little tidy profit out of it,
:28:13. > :28:19.and that should not be the case. But it is all based on the idea of
:28:19. > :28:22.repayment, which seems to be in the never-never land. Again, I think
:28:22. > :28:25.they should extend the terms of the loans in the interest of
:28:25. > :28:30.sustainability. The interest which is paid as an insurance, if you
:28:30. > :28:33.like, that could be treated like returnable collateral. We have only
:28:33. > :28:37.recently paid off America for all of the loans from the Second World
:28:37. > :28:42.War, so it is quite common in international finance to take out
:28:42. > :28:46.loans which you repay many decades later. Thank you very much. That's