:00:28. > :00:34.Afternoon, folks. Welcome to Daily Politics. Who will pay for you, who
:00:34. > :00:38.will look after you when you get old? Plans for an overhaul of the
:00:38. > :00:42.system in England have been unveiled by economist Andrew Dilnot.
:00:42. > :00:48.We will be asking, will be awash with the Treasury?
:00:48. > :00:53.Is the Government in a bit of a pickle about housing benefit? It is
:00:53. > :00:59.said the reforms will hit some of the country's poorest and create
:00:59. > :01:04.several thousand homeless families. God save America on at this a
:01:04. > :01:14.fourth July. London has a new statue of Ronald Reagan. God save
:01:14. > :01:14.
:01:14. > :01:17.the Gipper! Former mayor really Giuliani tells us why he mattered.
:01:18. > :01:23.He was prepared to make compromises even when he couldn't get
:01:23. > :01:27.everything you wanted. And Socrates has got hot under the
:01:27. > :01:32.collar about it and so has Ruby Wax. We are talking about freedom of
:01:32. > :01:36.speech. All that in the next half-hour on
:01:36. > :01:40.this independent state, the day they signed the declaration of
:01:40. > :01:49.independence in Philadelphia. -- this independent state. They
:01:49. > :01:54.probably signed it on the third but things move slowly these days! On
:01:54. > :02:04.this day, a man of many talents who knows all about these things.
:02:04. > :02:04.
:02:04. > :02:10.Author and broadcaster. He was even a former MP. A Conservative MP.
:02:10. > :02:14.Gyles Brandreth. It is lovely to be here. I'll always excited! I had to
:02:14. > :02:22.see the statue in the flesh so we can bring you a first-hand report.
:02:22. > :02:27.Did you see the unveiling? It is a fine piece of statute. Last week,
:02:27. > :02:35.one was unveiled in Hungary. But when Mr the statue of Lady Thatcher.
:02:35. > :02:40.We can work on that. -- but I missed it the statute. Can I ask
:02:40. > :02:45.you, though, because there was a big story and we will turn our
:02:45. > :02:51.attention to this story briefly. Housing benefit. At the weekend,
:02:51. > :02:56.the coalition was defending its plans to put a cap on benefits of
:02:56. > :02:59.�500 a week. It has emerged of SENIOR civil servant warned in
:02:59. > :03:09.January that the reductions could make an extra 20,000 people
:03:09. > :03:12.
:03:12. > :03:15.homeless. Last week, Grant Shapps said categorically that the most
:03:16. > :03:21.vulnerable would not be made homeless. What is to become of
:03:21. > :03:26.them? This is part of the game of modern politics or stop there has
:03:26. > :03:32.to be a league because the discussion took place. Which one
:03:32. > :03:40.knew about it, which one didn't? It is a complicated issue and the
:03:40. > :03:43.intentions are good. There should be a limit and it may be that his
:03:43. > :03:46.civil servant has said, there may be problems with this and problems
:03:47. > :03:50.down the line. The background discussion is filtered out and then,
:03:50. > :03:56.quite rightly, somebody like Liam Byrne jumps on the bandwagon and
:03:56. > :04:00.says, look, the Government is in disarray. Some ministers know about
:04:00. > :04:06.this, some don't. What is going on? There is confusion at the heart of
:04:06. > :04:13.government. There is complexity at the heart of this issue. But if the
:04:13. > :04:17.bottom line is, 40,000, not 20,000, could find themselves homeless, and
:04:17. > :04:21.therefore, potentially, cost the Exchequer a lot more because of
:04:21. > :04:27.course, they are going to have to be looked after in some way. Does
:04:27. > :04:32.it not smack of cock-up? difficulty for politicians nowadays
:04:32. > :04:36.is that if I answer your question by saying it is going to be 40,000
:04:36. > :04:42.extra home us, we have to look again. And then you might say, U-
:04:42. > :04:47.turn. If Grant Shapps says it is not going to turn out that way, he
:04:47. > :04:51.might be right. But if it is, he might have to re-examine it. We
:04:51. > :04:58.have to see everything in black and white terms now and it is actually
:04:58. > :05:02.more fluid and dynamic than that. If I were a politician I would be
:05:02. > :05:07.doing what Liam Byrne is saying, saying this is a mess. Others are
:05:07. > :05:11.saying, what is the truth of the matter? If you were an active
:05:11. > :05:14.Conservative politician or collision politician, would you be
:05:14. > :05:20.saying, the reality is, we have to cut 20 billion from somewhere and
:05:20. > :05:24.it is going to be tough? It is, but I was saying as a Conservative, one
:05:24. > :05:28.of the reasons we are in the collision is that we would not be
:05:28. > :05:34.achieved in any of these cuts without a united opposition if we
:05:34. > :05:37.were not in a collision. What these cuts might turn out to be is a
:05:37. > :05:44.slowing down of the increases. The slowing down of the growth of the
:05:44. > :05:54.debt. They are not cuts in real terms. We're very pleased that you
:05:54. > :05:58.are here, because we have his whole hat stand of hat. It is time for
:05:58. > :06:03.our daily quiz and we will be talking about free speech. It is
:06:03. > :06:13.all about free speech. Which of these is not protected by the First
:06:13. > :06:17.
:06:17. > :06:21.We are going to find out a little later in the programme. Now, the
:06:21. > :06:28.thorny issue of painful social care is back with us again, with a
:06:28. > :06:31.report out this morning by the Economist Andrew Dilnot. He used to
:06:31. > :06:36.be a member of the Institute of Fiscal Studies and he has been
:06:36. > :06:44.tasked by the Government to look into how we look after the elderly
:06:44. > :06:48.and disabled in care. That is for England. It became a hot political
:06:48. > :06:52.potato during the campaign. But will the Government have the
:06:52. > :06:56.campaign and resources to act? people are arguing that social care
:06:56. > :07:06.is in dire need of reform in England. The number of 17-year-olds
:07:06. > :07:08.
:07:08. > :07:16.is going to jump by 70% in the next 20 years. -- 70-year-olds. -- by
:07:16. > :07:23.50%. A cap will be put off �35,000 and above that, the state will pay.
:07:23. > :07:27.He has also said the means-tested threshold should be increased to
:07:27. > :07:30.�100,000. His report also argues that all of those who enter
:07:30. > :07:35.adulthood with their care and support needs should be eligible
:07:35. > :07:40.for free state support and that should be immediate. The Dilnot
:07:40. > :07:47.Commission estimates the cost will be around �1.7 billion, and that is
:07:47. > :07:50.based on a care cost cap of �35,000. This could rise as more people into
:07:50. > :07:59.retirement. We are going to hear what Government thinks a little
:07:59. > :08:07.later this afternoon. We will now hear from Norman lamb, Nick Clegg's
:08:07. > :08:11.chief of staff, and the Conservative MP Matthew Hancock.
:08:11. > :08:16.Welcome to the programme. We are already hearing this morning that
:08:16. > :08:20.this report is going to be kicked into the long grass because the
:08:20. > :08:24.Treasury doesn't think we can afford it. What do you say? I am
:08:24. > :08:29.quite positive about it, and Diane also positive that all three
:08:29. > :08:34.parties have said there need to be cross-party talks and consensus...
:08:34. > :08:39.That is certainly a way of kicking it into the long grass? Actually,
:08:39. > :08:45.contact has already been made, so there is progress there, so let's
:08:45. > :08:50.not be so sceptical. The consensus has to include how it is paid as
:08:50. > :08:55.well as the positive sides. Is it realistic to find another �1.7
:08:55. > :08:59.billion, which is the initial cost that Andrew Dilnot has put on the
:08:59. > :09:04.cost of the scheme? And that is in a climate where we are trying to
:09:04. > :09:11.cut government deficit at every turn. That is one of the massive
:09:11. > :09:13.challenges and it has to be subject to discussion across the parties.
:09:13. > :09:17.And across the public sector and how you would raise that money if
:09:17. > :09:22.you decided to do it. I think I agree with what Matthew says, which
:09:22. > :09:27.is that we have to use this as an opportunity to secure reform. It is
:09:27. > :09:32.long overdue and we have had a crisis in this sector too Blanc.
:09:32. > :09:38.Too many old people do not get the care they need. The scandals have
:09:38. > :09:43.got to stop. Any civilised society would want to make sure old people
:09:43. > :09:48.are looked after in this day and age. This is big politics, and I am
:09:48. > :09:52.interested in this phrase, kicking it into the long grass, because the
:09:52. > :09:57.brief specifically said, we are kicking this into the middle grass.
:09:57. > :10:01.What they are going to try and do is say, this is a serious issue and
:10:01. > :10:05.as for the next generation. The middle grass means it might be two
:10:05. > :10:10.or three years before we can take this into primary legislation. We
:10:10. > :10:14.have to get everybody on board and get an agreement. Meanwhile, we
:10:14. > :10:22.have a crisis of care at the moment. We have older people not getting
:10:22. > :10:27.the level of care they need? younger people as well. The
:10:27. > :10:32.Panorama programme demonstrated that. We have seen rising charges
:10:32. > :10:40.and reduced or tightened criteria for eligibility, so all the people
:10:40. > :10:49.are not getting the help they need at all. As Gyles says, issues come
:10:49. > :10:57.up where it is too big and important for party political stuff.
:10:57. > :11:02.Can you give a realistic timetable? I presume the report has all the
:11:02. > :11:06.numbers and figures and is the basis for a discussion. You want
:11:06. > :11:12.all-party consensus, because this is a generational change and will
:11:12. > :11:16.go beyond the life of any government. Timetable? It is a
:11:16. > :11:20.question of bringing people together and building a consensus.
:11:20. > :11:27.It is not just about the three parties, but also rig consensus
:11:27. > :11:32.within the industry. -- also a consensus. You have got to put the
:11:32. > :11:39.blocks into place. So far, it has taken a decade to get nowhere, and
:11:39. > :11:43.then the courage and asked Andrew Dilnot to do is report. Instead of
:11:43. > :11:53.rushing it am being pushed into a timetable, let's get everybody
:11:53. > :11:54.
:11:54. > :12:00.onside, because this have -- has not been tackled. I think 2013.
:12:00. > :12:05.is talk of consensus, which, in the abstract, politicians love to do.
:12:05. > :12:10.But you have got the scars, like Tony Blair, on public sector reform.
:12:10. > :12:14.You could not even get consensus with your now coalition partners?
:12:14. > :12:20.tried to establish a process before the election, and having to be
:12:20. > :12:25.blunt, the run-up to the election campaign was too hot. I think now
:12:25. > :12:29.is the chance. Labour has been constructed in its initial reaction.
:12:30. > :12:34.They have suggested they want to talk. That is welcomed. We have got
:12:34. > :12:39.to grab this opportunity and I think, let's use this Parliament to
:12:39. > :12:44.get all of the elements to it. This is just one element of it, this
:12:44. > :12:47.report. We have to win sure the quality is there. And also, health
:12:47. > :12:52.and social care have got to be integrated together so that people
:12:52. > :12:57.have real choice. This idea of personalised care, where you are in
:12:57. > :13:03.charge of your own care, these are concepts that go beyond the Dilnot
:13:03. > :13:09.Report. I assume the consensus does not include Labour's plan for what
:13:09. > :13:12.you stigmatise as a death tax? Is that part of your discussions?
:13:12. > :13:16.is very important that we get consensus not only on how to spend
:13:16. > :13:21.the money and the quality issues, but also on the difficult bits on
:13:21. > :13:25.how to pay for it. What happened before the last election is an
:13:25. > :13:28.example of why we need consensus, because if the Government comes up
:13:28. > :13:36.with plans, including once the opposition cannot stomach, then you
:13:36. > :13:42.will not get that consensus. what is the answer to my question?
:13:42. > :13:50.I think it is highly unlikely but, you know, let's look. So a
:13:50. > :13:53.relatively narrow consensus. What happens next? We have to engage
:13:53. > :13:58.with the organisations in the care sector. We have to get their
:13:58. > :14:03.reaction and we have to measure the Dilnot proposals against a number
:14:03. > :14:07.of tests. How much public money do we want to be spending on securing
:14:07. > :14:17.that cap on the catastrophic costs, about 10% of the population, who
:14:17. > :14:19.
:14:19. > :14:29.suffer. 10% of our elderly people and up with care costs of over 100
:14:29. > :14:29.
:14:29. > :14:33.-- �100,000. I fear that you will be back. We might turn up the
:14:33. > :14:40.flames! Now, get out your flags. We pay for
:14:40. > :14:45.these props! It is the Fourth of July, and you know what we are like
:14:45. > :14:50.on Daily Politics. Any excuse to raid the Music Archive and dabbled
:14:50. > :14:55.in the expenses account of the programme and buy flags. A statue
:14:55. > :14:57.of the late President Ronald Reagan has been unveiled outside the
:14:58. > :15:01.American embassy in Grosvenor Square. We sent our reporter along
:15:01. > :15:05.to see what he made of the latest piece of bronze to graze London's
:15:05. > :15:09.streets. Just what Londoners were calling
:15:09. > :15:15.out for. Another statue of an American President. But today,
:15:15. > :15:19.that's what they got, as a 10 ft Ronald Reagan in bronze was
:15:19. > :15:23.unveiled outside the American Embassy. This statue of Ronald
:15:23. > :15:30.Reagan is quite clearly a memorial and a commemoration of a glorious
:15:30. > :15:35.past. But more importantly, it is a call to an even more glorious
:15:35. > :15:41.future. Thank you very much. It is the end of a series of events to
:15:41. > :15:46.mark 100 years since Reagan's birth. He was like a mountain. If you
:15:46. > :15:50.stand on the mountain, it doesn't look so impressive. But if you
:15:50. > :15:54.travel a wear from the mountain, 20 miles away, you can see how that
:15:54. > :15:58.mountain changed the landscape. That is what is going on now with
:15:58. > :16:02.Reagan. Missing from the audience, Reagan's political soulmate
:16:02. > :16:07.Baroness Thatcher. She had hoped to attend but could not because of
:16:07. > :16:14.ill-health. There were plenty of other Conservative right wingers.
:16:14. > :16:19.Why do they love him so? I was such an admirer of Reagan when I was a
:16:19. > :16:22.very, very young Conservative. I went to America and are witnessed
:16:22. > :16:30.him winning the election against Jimmy Carter and I think he is an
:16:30. > :16:38.inspiration to anybody on the right side of politics. It is not just
:16:38. > :16:48.Marine Corps bans and Stars and Stripes. Everybody can enjoy hot
:16:48. > :16:53.
:16:53. > :16:57.dogs, candy floss and, what's that And we heard Eric Pickles. Earlier,
:16:57. > :17:01.I spoke to the former Mayor of New York City, Rudy Giuliani, about
:17:01. > :17:10.what he thinks of Ronald Reagan, and why he's now copying some of
:17:10. > :17:15.his ideas. I have tremendous and admiration
:17:15. > :17:22.for Ronald Reagan. 1998 I gave a speech at the Ronald Reagan library
:17:22. > :17:25.where I said, of reviewing the 20th century, the two most consequential
:17:25. > :17:34.presidents were franked when Roosevelt and Ronald Reagan. He had
:17:34. > :17:38.to concede that those two President had the biggest impact on America.
:17:39. > :17:44.In both cases, they led to the liberation of large portions of
:17:44. > :17:50.Europe, their actions did. They had a profound impact on our economy,
:17:50. > :17:54.much more so than the other presidents. So, Ronald Reagan will
:17:54. > :17:59.maintain that role as one of the two most consequential President's
:17:59. > :18:03.whether you like what he did or not. He wasn't a popular figure with the
:18:03. > :18:13.American Left. Has the liberal left come to terms with Ronald Reagan
:18:13. > :18:14.
:18:14. > :18:18.now? A little bit. The anger and the notion that he was dumb or an
:18:18. > :18:24.actor and did not know what he was doing, bumbling, that has passed
:18:24. > :18:31.away, particularly with the release of his letters. Particularly his
:18:31. > :18:35.love letters to his wife. Because, it demonstrates that Ronald Reagan
:18:35. > :18:39.who was supposed to be not too bright, was a terrific writer. He
:18:39. > :18:44.had wonderful command of the English language, not only speaking
:18:44. > :18:49.it but writing it. If you take some time to readers' letters, you come
:18:49. > :18:53.away with an insight into Ronald Reagan that was given to me by the
:18:53. > :18:59.Attorney General, who was my boss and one of his closest friends,
:18:59. > :19:04.that the key to his career was constantly being under estimated
:19:04. > :19:08.cost dock explain this paradox. understand that Mr Regan, widely
:19:08. > :19:14.revered by today's per Republicans, a wonder if he could win your
:19:14. > :19:21.party's nomination today? He believed in deficits, the Tea Party
:19:21. > :19:29.movement does not. He was prepared to spend when it was required.
:19:29. > :19:34.Could he really when a primary today? A heck of a good question. A
:19:34. > :19:39.very astute question. What it gets at is the real Ronald Reagan and
:19:39. > :19:44.the mythical one of Reagan everyone crates to fit their own set of
:19:44. > :19:50.political views. Remember, Ronald Reagan was the governor of
:19:50. > :19:55.California who signed the law that made abortion legal. He
:19:55. > :20:01.subsequently changed his mind about that. But that alone would have
:20:01. > :20:06.been a major obstacle for him today. It wasn't an obstacle for him in
:20:06. > :20:12.1980, that he signed the abortion of law. He also raised spending in
:20:12. > :20:16.California and raised taxes, although he also lowered taxes. His
:20:16. > :20:21.approach to taxes was not this religious incantation, you must
:20:21. > :20:31.always lower taxes. It was, let's make the best tax deal possible.
:20:31. > :20:34.
:20:34. > :20:38.For example, he would lower three taxes and raised two, but if the
:20:38. > :20:42.result was lower taxation, he would be pleased. He was a practical
:20:42. > :20:48.thinker. He was guided by an ideology and he was practical
:20:48. > :20:51.enough to make compromises when he couldn't get anything he wanted.
:20:51. > :20:56.think you have been to New Hampshire seven times this year.
:20:56. > :21:05.You are going again next month. I assume you're not just going for
:21:05. > :21:10.the scenery? I am going there to get a sense of whether I have a
:21:10. > :21:19.good chance of winning that primary, and the nomination, because there
:21:19. > :21:25.is no point entering this unless you have a good chance winning. I
:21:25. > :21:31.have had the excitement when I ran for an entire year. I would do it
:21:31. > :21:34.over again. I would probably make a few changes. But now this will be a
:21:34. > :21:43.second time and I want to make sure I have a really good chance of
:21:43. > :21:48.winning. I understand you will tell us whether you are going to run,
:21:48. > :21:52.around laboured day? If you do decide to run, it sounds to me from
:21:52. > :22:01.what you have been saying you would like to run with the Ronald Reagan
:22:01. > :22:07.mantra, your republicanism seems to be similar but for the 20th
:22:07. > :22:13.century? In my case, it is deliberate, I copied Ronald Reagan.
:22:13. > :22:18.I worked for him, I became mayor of New York City and then literally
:22:18. > :22:22.copied what Ronald Reagan did, as best I could as mayor of New York.
:22:22. > :22:26.A you can see a longer version of my interview with Rudy on our
:22:26. > :22:36.website. But now we're joined by a Ruby! The American comedian and
:22:36. > :22:39.
:22:39. > :22:43.actress, Ruby Wax, is with us. has better teeth than I do! It is
:22:43. > :22:47.interesting the difference history makes. I was a Washington
:22:47. > :22:53.correspondent when Ronald Reagan was President, he was excoriated by
:22:53. > :22:57.the American Left. He is still disliked by a lot, but he
:22:57. > :23:07.transcends political boundaries now. It is unbelievable. Compared to
:23:07. > :23:08.
:23:08. > :23:18.Sarah Palin and what we have got now, it is like Jesus compared to a
:23:18. > :23:18.
:23:18. > :23:25.dachshund. You saw the transition. I didn't realise how clever he was.
:23:25. > :23:33.I didn't know. The US networks who had never been his best friends,
:23:33. > :23:38.they treated his death like a royal funeral. The potency of presidency
:23:38. > :23:45.is very great. Somehow you assume something very special. That
:23:45. > :23:49.reminded me how like Mrs Thatcher he was being a pragmatist. People
:23:49. > :23:56.think Mrs Thatcher was the iron lady from the beginning but her
:23:56. > :24:06.early years were full of compromise. But she wasn't in cowboy films,
:24:06. > :24:14.
:24:14. > :24:23.that was her downfall! Let's get And the answer is: C. The Right to
:24:23. > :24:28.Vote. Freedom of speech, which occurs to many people when they
:24:28. > :24:32.talk about rights and freedoms in America. We have gone through soul-
:24:32. > :24:36.searching in this country about what should be allowed. You have
:24:36. > :24:43.been the victim of tabloid coverage. Should there be a line? Should
:24:43. > :24:48.anything be OK in a country that enshrines freedom of speech? Free-
:24:48. > :24:53.speech his own name out of the be holder. When you are defending the
:24:53. > :24:56.tired and the poor and the huddled masses, but when you are making
:24:56. > :25:01.money out of going into somebody's of rubbish bin and finding their
:25:01. > :25:07.dirty laundry, a can we separate, one is a free speech, one is making
:25:07. > :25:13.a living. Out of somebody's reputation. So where do you draw
:25:14. > :25:23.the line? If it is just a pecuniary advantage. What about on the
:25:24. > :25:24.
:25:24. > :25:30.internet, bloggers are not making money. Our society thrives on
:25:30. > :25:35.gossip. I do not know, but this question about what the public
:25:35. > :25:45.needs to know is dubious. Because really, we used to just have the
:25:45. > :25:46.
:25:46. > :25:51.picket fence and church for gossip. There are the secret conversations,
:25:51. > :25:55.Cabinet briefings, leaks from civil servants. When I published my
:25:55. > :26:03.political diaries, I formed the review what people did in their
:26:03. > :26:09.private lives was not the business of the public. But the previously
:26:09. > :26:12.secret workings of the Chief whips office, that was after the event
:26:12. > :26:17.something for the public domain because it was government service,
:26:17. > :26:23.paid for by the tax payer, part of the machinery of government. Most
:26:23. > :26:27.of these things you can choose. One can make a decision. Where we get
:26:27. > :26:31.into difficult territory, where the leak makes the management of
:26:31. > :26:37.government very difficult indeed. Having a normal conversation with
:26:37. > :26:44.somebody as an active politician becomes difficult. Just by being a
:26:45. > :26:54.politician, it is our business. I think a footballer, just play
:26:55. > :26:55.
:26:55. > :27:00.football. Let Clinton get on with his business. But can I say, I
:27:00. > :27:04.thank the tabloids for exposing me. In a way, it is a twist on anything,
:27:04. > :27:12.a long time ago I saw my face on the front of the Daily Mail saying
:27:12. > :27:19.I had a mental illness. I was in Barbados, and felt embarrassed.
:27:19. > :27:24.Years later I have written a play about mental illness, because
:27:24. > :27:28.otherwise we hide. They have done a lot of good in my case. Going back
:27:28. > :27:36.to those days, if you had known about the super injunction, would
:27:36. > :27:43.you have gone down that path? Probably. It was too shameful.
:27:43. > :27:49.You'll do anything. But, now I think, why should we have been
:27:49. > :27:54.ashamed of something that that? attitude is so different now, JFK
:27:54. > :28:03.and his indiscretions, the press kept largely quite. What has
:28:03. > :28:11.changed in your country? We didn't have access like that. It is all
:28:11. > :28:15.about money. All took wrong kite's advice is still very good, he said,
:28:15. > :28:25.if you are going to be a politician, never do anything that you would
:28:25. > :28:27.
:28:27. > :28:37.not be prepared to read about on the front of the New York Times. --
:28:37. > :28:42.