:00:23. > :00:26.Afternoon, folks. Welcome to the Daily Politics. This story may have
:00:27. > :00:32.been running for days, but not an hour seems to go by without another
:00:32. > :00:35.astonishing development in this phone-hacking story. This morning,
:00:35. > :00:38.Gordon Brown told the BBC he was reduced to tears when News
:00:38. > :00:41.International published that his son, Fraser, had cystic fibrosis,
:00:41. > :00:51.and then launched a full-throated attack on their links to what he
:00:51. > :00:52.
:00:52. > :00:54.called "the criminal underworld". This is the scene right now in the
:00:54. > :00:59.Home Affairs Select Committee, where they've been grilling the
:00:59. > :01:04.policemen in charge of the original investigation. We'll bring you the
:01:04. > :01:07.very latest on what's been said. And we will be talking about other
:01:07. > :01:10.political news! There is some, you know?! Today, the Government's
:01:10. > :01:13.going to say how its going to keep carbon emissions down, fuel prices
:01:13. > :01:22.low and generate enough electricity to keep the lights on, all at the
:01:22. > :01:26.same time! We'll try to find out just how they're going to do it.
:01:26. > :01:34.All that in the next half an hour. With us for the duration, former
:01:34. > :01:39.Liberal Democrat leader, Charles Kennedy. He was then promoted to be
:01:39. > :01:43.Lord Rector of the University of Glasgow, a far more important
:01:43. > :01:50.decisions. It is rather nice, you calling me Lord something, I could
:01:50. > :01:54.get used to that. Well, I wouldn't! Indeed not!
:01:54. > :01:57.First, as Andrew said, every day is an extraordinary day in this whole
:01:57. > :01:59.phone-hacking saga. Today is no exception. Early this morning, the
:01:59. > :02:02.former Prime Minister, Gordon Brown, gave his reaction to allegations
:02:02. > :02:07.that his personal life had been intruded upon by journalists
:02:07. > :02:15.working for News International. had my bank account broken into. I
:02:15. > :02:21.had my lawyers' files effectively blacked, with someone getting
:02:21. > :02:25.information from my lawyers. My tax returns went missing and one point.
:02:25. > :02:31.Medical records had been broken into. I don't know how all this
:02:31. > :02:34.happened, but I know that in two of these instances, there is absolute
:02:34. > :02:39.proof that News International was involved in hiring people to get
:02:39. > :02:44.this information. I do know also that the people that they work with,
:02:44. > :02:48.because this is what really concerns me most, are criminals,
:02:48. > :02:53.known criminals, criminals with records. Criminals who sometimes
:02:53. > :02:59.have records of violence as well as fraud. These links with the
:02:59. > :03:03.criminal underworld mean that there is nothing, I think, that a serious
:03:03. > :03:08.organisation can say, when it is alleged that they are operating
:03:08. > :03:13.underhand tactics, by using criminal elements. People will
:03:13. > :03:17.rightly say, how can a reputable news organisation in this country
:03:17. > :03:19.run their affairs by using known criminals to carry out much of the
:03:19. > :03:23.work? News International put out a
:03:23. > :03:25.statement basically saying "no comment" to all of that. Although
:03:25. > :03:30.they did insist that their information about Fraser Brown had
:03:30. > :03:35.not been obtained illegally. How significant is this Gordon Brown
:03:35. > :03:39.intervention? It is another nail in the coffin. As every day goes by,
:03:39. > :03:45.there is another outrage. An innocent child, for heaven's sake,
:03:45. > :03:48.who is born with a terrible condition like that. There is no
:03:48. > :03:52.real legitimate public interest in that, however the material was
:03:52. > :03:57.granted. Unless the parents had decided to talk about it, which
:03:57. > :04:05.they did not. I think it is bad for them. Having said that, and there
:04:05. > :04:10.will be 110% sympathy for the Browns in this issue, and I share
:04:10. > :04:15.it. News International say no comment. I think if I was in Gordon
:04:16. > :04:20.par shoes, I would have no comment be on the statement I made last
:04:20. > :04:24.night -- Gordon's shoes. wouldn't you, and why is he?
:04:24. > :04:28.would do so on a personal basis, I would feel distressed about this
:04:28. > :04:33.coming into the public domain, and I would leave it at that. People
:04:33. > :04:36.sometimes feel the need to talk to television cameras, maybe get
:04:36. > :04:39.something off their chest. There is quite a lot of swelling and
:04:39. > :04:49.discussion going about the village of Westminster over these past few
:04:49. > :04:50.
:04:50. > :04:54.days. Others had a lot of this stuff come up before the general
:04:54. > :04:58.election, given the tightness of the result, would have influence
:04:58. > :05:02.things in a Labour's direction. I think that is fanciful but there is
:05:02. > :05:07.an element of psychology at work. Is this an element of revenge for a
:05:07. > :05:11.man who feels personally slighted and attacked? I don't understand
:05:11. > :05:15.the feeling. It drove him to tears, then he goes to a wedding, he goes
:05:15. > :05:19.to a summer party. In 2009, he tells the Guardian, I have regular
:05:19. > :05:24.communications with Rupert Murdoch, as you would imagine. He has the
:05:24. > :05:27.most enormous personal regard for Rupert Murdoch, he told the
:05:27. > :05:35.interviewer. There is nothing unusual in the prime minister
:05:35. > :05:39.talking to Rupert Murdoch. That was before The Sun turned. On
:05:39. > :05:46.the same day as Mr Brown made his last speech as Prime Minister to
:05:46. > :05:52.the Labour Party conference, Cade - - came out against him. I was there
:05:52. > :05:58.at the time. We were in no doubt as to how furious Mr Brown was, how
:05:58. > :06:04.angry he was, how betrayed he felt, by papers that had supported him
:06:04. > :06:09.and Mr Blair before. And timed with such a detonation effect, on the
:06:09. > :06:14.morning of the big speech. There must be a great residual bitterness,
:06:14. > :06:18.there is no doubt about that. Having said that, let's face it,
:06:18. > :06:23.politicians across the spectrum have been far too supine, not just
:06:23. > :06:28.with News International, but with loads of titles. We are all chasing
:06:28. > :06:32.approval, complimentary remarks, as close as we can get to newspapers,
:06:32. > :06:38.saying vote for this party, that party. That has always been the way
:06:38. > :06:42.of things. Have you always found yourself having showers the morning
:06:42. > :06:47.after, thinking I wish I didn't do that yesterday, cosying up to the
:06:47. > :06:51.newspapers, but I was frightened not to? Certainly not with News
:06:51. > :06:56.International, I never expended any energy with the Liberal Democrats,
:06:56. > :07:03.in my day -- they never expended any energy. That was never a moral
:07:03. > :07:06.dilemma that I faced. I don't think there was anything terribly
:07:06. > :07:12.corrupting. The position at the Lib Dems were in 10 years ago is very
:07:12. > :07:18.different from where we are today. You didn't have the same level of
:07:18. > :07:23.pressure upon you. You were worried about The Independent and The
:07:23. > :07:27.Guardian, and that was pretty much it. The New York Times is saying
:07:27. > :07:36.that all of these MPs coming out of the woodwork, they are calling it
:07:36. > :07:41.the British bring. -- British spring. William Hague
:07:41. > :07:46.had a very good joke. He said, 1 million people are marching on our
:07:46. > :07:50.Palace, meaning Buckingham Palace, and we are completely relaxed!
:07:50. > :07:54.This morning, a big event in the Commons Select Committee. Some of
:07:54. > :07:59.the police officers involved in the original investigation into phone
:07:59. > :08:05.hacking, which didn't seem to get that far, have been giving evidence
:08:05. > :08:08.to this Home Affairs Select Committee. Not for the first time.
:08:08. > :08:11.Chief among them, John Yates, the Assistant Commissioner of the
:08:11. > :08:14.Metropolitan Police who has been criticised for deciding in 2009 not
:08:14. > :08:19.to reopen an earlier inquiry into the whole scandal. Saying, in
:08:19. > :08:23.effect, he thought it was job done. Clearly, that wasn't the case. He
:08:23. > :08:28.was asked by the committee chairman this morning, who work -- who he
:08:28. > :08:34.was apologising to today. I am regretting, I express regret, we
:08:34. > :08:39.didn't do enough about dealing with those who are potentially affected.
:08:39. > :08:43.I hold my hands up. I passionately believe I'm doing the right thing
:08:43. > :08:47.around these matters. If I'm about to be wrong and have made an error,
:08:47. > :08:51.I will hold my hands up. Please do not take that admission as in any
:08:51. > :08:58.way accepting that I accept responsibility that News
:08:58. > :09:03.International have not done, with regards to this case, from 2005,
:09:03. > :09:08.2006, 2009, 2010, even up until yesterday. Please do not take that
:09:09. > :09:13.as an admission that I am accepting responsibility for that. Why did
:09:13. > :09:20.you not properly review the evidence that was sitting in bags
:09:20. > :09:24.at Scotland Yard? Because there was nothing to indicate to me, in July
:09:24. > :09:27.2009, out of the article that was written in The Guardian, that so
:09:27. > :09:32.there was new material in there that would justify the investment
:09:32. > :09:37.of resources, to go through all that material. Let me be clear, it
:09:37. > :09:42.may have been placed in bin bags, as is the common parlance, but it
:09:42. > :09:47.was in exhibit bags that was placed in bin bags. That material was gone
:09:47. > :09:53.through by counsel in 2005 and 2006, it was reviewed by counsel in light
:09:53. > :09:57.of the indictment they had framed. You know that when council is
:09:57. > :10:00.focused on a particular indictment, they are going to be focused on
:10:00. > :10:04.looking for evidence about that indictment. Your responsibility was
:10:04. > :10:07.to look for matters outside of the individual indictment in that case.
:10:07. > :10:15.You had thousands of pages of documents, why did you not look at
:10:15. > :10:20.them? The case had been finished. Two people had gone to court and
:10:20. > :10:24.had been sentenced. All the material... I appreciate the point
:10:24. > :10:30.about relevance... Had been seen by the council and reviewed by the CPS.
:10:30. > :10:36.I think it is accepted, I daren't say, that there was nothing in that
:10:36. > :10:41.Guardian article that said, that is new, we don't know about it in the
:10:41. > :10:46.police. We knew about that. That was Mr Yates giving evidence
:10:46. > :10:50.this morning. I think he is still doing so. We are joined by our
:10:50. > :10:55.political correspondent, Ross Hawkins. When I was watching, I had
:10:55. > :10:59.never seen this before. A select committee of the House of Commons,
:10:59. > :11:06.treating a senior police officer of their met with a mixture of
:11:06. > :11:11.hostility and mockery. -- of the Met. Absolute derision, laughing at
:11:11. > :11:15.him. He was reading through letters from use on the international
:11:15. > :11:21.saying, they weren't telling me the truth. One of the MPs -- from News
:11:21. > :11:31.International. One of the MPs said they -- would you expect MPs to
:11:31. > :11:34.Four you and I know normally, in the select committee hearings, one
:11:34. > :11:38.political side favours the witness more than the other side. They
:11:38. > :11:43.differ in their approach. Right now, everyone on the committee seems
:11:43. > :11:46.keen to give John Yates a bit of a kicking. A bit earlier, something
:11:46. > :11:51.significant from Ian Blair, the commissioner when the first
:11:51. > :11:55.investigation was carried out. He said, 2006, this was not regarded
:11:55. > :11:59.as terribly significant at the time. He was warning about 50-50
:12:00. > :12:03.hindsight, everyone has got that now. But the mistakes of the past
:12:03. > :12:07.are coming back to haunt the police, and the MPs want to make sure they
:12:07. > :12:17.are seen at the forefront of dragging them up. Thank you. Giving
:12:17. > :12:19.some flavour of what has been happening. We are joined by David
:12:19. > :12:22.Ruffley, who was Shadow Minister for Police Reform when the Tories
:12:22. > :12:25.were in opposition, and Peter Kirkham, who used to be a detective
:12:25. > :12:29.chief inspector in the Metropolitan Police. David Ruffley, as you look
:12:29. > :12:32.at what has just been happening, MPs in the Commons calling for Miss
:12:32. > :12:39.Yeates to go, it is hard to conclude that his position is not
:12:39. > :12:44.untenable -- calling for Mr Yates to go. I think it is untenable. I
:12:44. > :12:49.don't think he is lying. He can't answer this question. That the
:12:49. > :12:55.11,000 pages of documents referred to the details of Milly Dowler,
:12:55. > :12:58.relatives of 7/7 and also the Soham murders. That was the information
:12:58. > :13:05.in the bin bags when in 2009, he was asked, is there anything more
:13:05. > :13:09.could we should be looked at -- looking at? For him not to know, or
:13:09. > :13:12.not to have reliable lieutenants to go in and say, this is what we have
:13:13. > :13:17.looked at, is beyond belief. He is not a liar, but he is not competent.
:13:17. > :13:21.I think there is a wider issue. The London public and the British
:13:21. > :13:25.public. They think, are the police on top of things? I think the
:13:25. > :13:29.answer from today's evidence must be no. You have been backs of
:13:29. > :13:33.evidence full of smoking guns, as it turns out, and you don't bother
:13:33. > :13:39.looking at their -- you have been bags. They will look at to some
:13:39. > :13:45.extent by the original investigation. John Yates was asked
:13:45. > :13:49.to consider whether there was a new evidence which merited the official
:13:49. > :13:53.-- initial investigation, which she had not been part of. He took the
:13:53. > :13:57.view that it wasn't, there was nothing new. Effectively took it on
:13:57. > :14:02.trust that they had done a competent job originally. He wasn't
:14:02. > :14:06.asked to check whether they had done a competent job. He gave the
:14:06. > :14:10.impression, and we as journalists were given the impression that
:14:10. > :14:15.another voice had looked at the original inquiry and rolled it OK.
:14:15. > :14:19.Now we are being told that is not what has happened. There is
:14:19. > :14:25.learning in terms of the language that was used, and what it means
:14:25. > :14:28.and people consider it to mean. are dealing with the police force,
:14:29. > :14:32.elements you seem to be in the pay of News International -- elements
:14:32. > :14:36.of whom seem to be. Elements of whom have an incredibly cosy
:14:36. > :14:38.relationship with News International. Some of whom end up
:14:39. > :14:44.working for News International. And you are telling us, we need to
:14:44. > :14:47.learn about the use of language? I am saying on that point, what
:14:47. > :14:52.John Yates was saying was misinterpreted because he was using
:14:52. > :14:56.phrases that meant one thing. Nobody put us right. I am not sure
:14:56. > :15:00.he recognised he was being misunderstood. In relation to the
:15:00. > :15:03.whole thing, there are serious issues about the whole framework of
:15:03. > :15:08.how the media and police work together. It is an inevitable
:15:08. > :15:11.relationship that needs a clear ethical framework. A former
:15:11. > :15:15.commander of operations at Scotland Yard said at the time Mr Gates was
:15:15. > :15:25.dealing with a serious terror threat, he had his hands full -- Mr
:15:25. > :15:25.
:15:25. > :15:30.The police have never been it so well resourced. If he did not have
:15:30. > :15:36.the resources, it was his duty to say, I do not have the resources
:15:36. > :15:42.and to be clear what investigation he had done. All the stuff we heard
:15:42. > :15:50.from Ian Blair about hindsight, this is not acceptable. It is
:15:50. > :15:54.talking about words. There was a set of smoking guns in the Met it
:15:54. > :16:02.and they signed up saying there is no more to investigate. John Yates
:16:02. > :16:06.should have had a team tasked by him to give the right answer. His
:16:06. > :16:12.position is not tenable but it also asks the questions about police
:16:12. > :16:16.resources. I hear the nonsense, they had a 50% real-terms increase
:16:16. > :16:26.in a decade. If he did not have enough officers he should have said
:16:26. > :16:31.so. They have 70 on it now. Let me ask you this. It is part of my job
:16:31. > :16:35.to mix with political leaders on the left and right and centre. I
:16:35. > :16:40.have been doing that a lot in the past week. I have never known,
:16:40. > :16:46.among senior politicians in this country, such hostility to the
:16:46. > :16:50.police. Is the Met a where they have lost the confidence of the
:16:50. > :16:55.political leaders of this country? I am sure they are, this is a
:16:55. > :17:00.unique situation where the police have a relationship with the
:17:00. > :17:05.organisation suspected. We have the issue of come up are their old
:17:05. > :17:10.scores being settled? People deflecting attention from their
:17:10. > :17:20.failings? Positions deflecting attention on to the police, and on
:17:20. > :17:25.to the media. This wasn't considered a major issue. There is
:17:25. > :17:30.a massive market in trade in personal data. In the Guardian
:17:30. > :17:37.newspaper, Devon and Cornwall are invested in a major investigation
:17:37. > :17:43.which came to court in 2005, and it was kicked out. Charles Kennedy.
:17:43. > :17:49.You speak to politicians more than I do, do you agree there is almost
:17:49. > :17:55.a complete collapse of trust in the competence and integrity of
:17:55. > :18:03.elements of the police? That is a fair assessment. It is not the
:18:03. > :18:08.usual suspects with a face like the anti- establishment view. Cabinet
:18:08. > :18:17.ministers have expressed their concern. It is also a reflection of
:18:17. > :18:24.this. Going back to the revelations of last week. MPs and, our role
:18:24. > :18:29.should not be dismissed completely. It sometimes is, as being a
:18:29. > :18:33.reflectors of our electorate. There are certain occasions when the
:18:33. > :18:37.whole purpose of parliamentary democracy works and we are
:18:37. > :18:43.lightning conductors. Every one of us the length and breadth of the
:18:43. > :18:49.country when the revelations came out, a tidal wave of public anger
:18:49. > :18:54.was communicated to us. You have seen that affected. We will have to
:18:55. > :18:58.leave that here. I have a feeling we will be coming back to it. The
:18:58. > :19:02.News of the World story is gripping us all at Westminster. But, unless
:19:02. > :19:05.you're famous, or for some other reason you're in the public eye,
:19:05. > :19:08.it's not going to affect your life very much. One thing that will, is
:19:08. > :19:11.the sheer cost of gas and electricity. Today, the government
:19:11. > :19:14.will be publishing proposals for reforming the electricity market.
:19:14. > :19:18.It doesn't sound like a sexy subject. But the challenge is
:19:19. > :19:22.enormous. They've got to find a way of generating enough power to keep
:19:22. > :19:27.the lights on, cut carbon emissions, and keep energy bills down at the
:19:27. > :19:33.same time. Energy Secretary Chris Huhne will unveil his electricity
:19:33. > :19:36.market reforms in the Commons this afternoon. He is aiming to redraw
:19:36. > :19:40.the energy market to ensure that we have the right investment so that
:19:40. > :19:48.we can cut carbon, as well as guaranteeing the supply, and keep
:19:49. > :19:52.the lights on. The numbers are staggering. Ofgem says �200 billion
:19:52. > :19:56.may be required over the next 10-15 years for new power stations, and
:19:56. > :19:59.to upgrade the grid. And the government is forecasting that
:19:59. > :20:06.electricity consumption will double by 2050, as heating and road
:20:06. > :20:09.transport switches to electricity to reduce CO2 emissions. And who is
:20:10. > :20:14.going to pay for this massive change in the way we generate,
:20:14. > :20:24.transmit and use electricity? Yes, we, the consumers. Ofgem has
:20:24. > :20:28.Although Mr Huhne has promised that overall bills will be "down in the
:20:28. > :20:30.long-run." With us now is David Porter, chief executive of the
:20:30. > :20:40.Association of Electricity Providers, which speaks on behalf
:20:40. > :20:44.of anyone and everyone who generates electricity.
:20:44. > :20:48.Are we in this disaster when it comes to household bills because
:20:48. > :20:54.the companies have been creaming off profit for such a long time and
:20:54. > :21:01.not reinvesting? No, that is quite wrong, the companies are major
:21:01. > :21:07.investors, they are among the UK's big investors. The problem we have
:21:07. > :21:12.had recently is something different from the one that the White Paper
:21:12. > :21:19.is seeking to redress. The recent problem has been to do with fuel
:21:19. > :21:24.price rises. But, the white paper is about securing investments in at
:21:24. > :21:28.low carbon electricity for the long term. But also it is acknowledged
:21:28. > :21:34.there has not been the investment in the grid, there will be a
:21:34. > :21:39.massive investment of �200 billion just to keep things going. Energy
:21:40. > :21:45.generators are still making a windfall according to one report.
:21:45. > :21:51.They carry on taking hefty windfall profits. There is some confusion
:21:51. > :21:57.here. What we are talking about today is a bold move by the
:21:58. > :22:02.government to create a framework in which the energy companies can
:22:02. > :22:09.raise �200 billion of investment, mostly in power stations and partly
:22:09. > :22:14.in the networks. That is designed to deliver low carbon electricity.
:22:14. > :22:21.I understand that. But he acknowledged the assessment that in
:22:21. > :22:26.every given that scenario it is going to hit the consumer hard?
:22:26. > :22:32.think it is a fair bet that prices will rise. They have gone up
:22:32. > :22:38.recently because of increases in Vauxhall fuel prices, coal and gas.
:22:38. > :22:44.But, somehow, if we do make this �200 billion of investment, by the
:22:44. > :22:50.way, the equivalent of building two Channel tunnel's a year for nine
:22:50. > :22:55.years, if we do make it, the companies have to get a return. And
:22:55. > :22:59.that eventually finds its way to customers and their bills. There
:22:59. > :23:03.are those who said his White Paper is tinkering at the margins, there
:23:03. > :23:13.needs to be a root and branch overhaul, to take the power away
:23:13. > :23:18.
:23:18. > :23:22.from the Big Six. "stitching up the market" says Tim Yeo. The White
:23:22. > :23:26.Paper is designed to attract investment, it may well attract
:23:26. > :23:30.investment from companies that are not in the industry at the moment.
:23:30. > :23:34.That could be quite important. A good many of the major players in
:23:34. > :23:39.our industry at the moment do not have particularly attractive
:23:39. > :23:42.balance sheets. Thank you for coming in to talk to us. Wobbles in
:23:42. > :23:45.the eurozone are now no great surprise to us. Ireland, Greece and
:23:45. > :23:53.Portugal have needed and had bailouts. Recently, Italy has felt
:23:53. > :23:56.the chill of a euro crisis building. So is this currency collapsing and,
:23:56. > :24:06.if so, what do people like our guest Charles Kennedy, who called
:24:06. > :24:13.
:24:13. > :24:17.for us to be part if it, think now? There's Euro-scepticism. And then
:24:18. > :24:27.there's scepticism of the euro. Indeed, some would say they told
:24:27. > :24:30.you so, from the start. The script was written, not by the British
:24:30. > :24:35.have necessarily, but by the Bundesbank, they said if you take
:24:35. > :24:38.monetary policy and give it to a central bank, and had a one size
:24:38. > :24:42.fits all policy, that interest rates around Europe would not fit
:24:42. > :24:48.everyone all the time. The euro has always been a wholly political
:24:48. > :24:52.project, designed to bind Germany into Europe. But no one has ever
:24:52. > :24:56.really explained how they would overcome the fundamental economic
:24:56. > :24:59.problem, have you can have one interest rate for different
:24:59. > :25:06.economies, how you could have a currency without a government. The
:25:06. > :25:11.fact there isn't a government has proved a fatal flaw. There is an
:25:11. > :25:14.element of I told you so. Not so gleeful but in sorrow. Yet,
:25:14. > :25:17.government in Britain, indeed leading members of rival parties in
:25:17. > :25:25.Britain, sat alongside one another to show their commitment to making
:25:25. > :25:30.it work. Were they naive? In every tide of human history, there is a
:25:30. > :25:34.part of the time way you put hope first. Your potential
:25:34. > :25:38.disappointment you put to one side. As pro-Europeans, we are not in
:25:38. > :25:44.favour of rushing into the euro head first, we don't believe Europe
:25:44. > :25:49.is perfect and we will want to see reform takes place. But, we do
:25:49. > :25:54.believe that Britain can and must lead in Europe. Need reform in
:25:54. > :26:01.Europe, lead on the euro's benefits for Britain. I think people felt we
:26:01. > :26:05.were being isolated, this was a political view also. They felt we
:26:05. > :26:09.should be the heart of Europe in order to influence things. There
:26:09. > :26:13.was a thought the markets bought into this. People didn't realise
:26:13. > :26:17.they had been speculating on the system apparently succeeding. The
:26:17. > :26:19.same people are now speculating on it failing. Now, it's not the
:26:19. > :26:22.discomfort over just Portugal, Ireland and Greece they're
:26:22. > :26:28.speculating on. In recent days, Italy is also threatening the
:26:28. > :26:32.euro's future. If you do not deal decisively with
:26:32. > :26:37.the small southern countries which are in trouble, if you do not solve
:26:37. > :26:41.the great problem, it will spread to Spain and Italy. And Italy
:26:41. > :26:47.cannot be bailed out, it is too large. Over the next three years,
:26:47. > :26:53.the eurozone will get smaller, the weaker countries will split away.
:26:53. > :26:56.After that who knows what will happen. Uncertainly correction
:26:56. > :27:02.Margaret uncertainty and doubt after all that hope. Charles
:27:02. > :27:07.Kennedy, President of the European Movement.
:27:07. > :27:12.Who said, the euro despite gloomy predictions has proved to be a
:27:12. > :27:18.success? We cannot afford, Britain cannot afford to be isolated any
:27:19. > :27:25.longer? That sounds like Kennedy prose? Someone called Charles
:27:25. > :27:29.Kennedy. That must have been another Charles Kennedy. You played
:27:29. > :27:34.a rather fair clip of me from all those years ago, you could have
:27:34. > :27:38.been prejudicial. In that I was making the point, I was strongly
:27:38. > :27:44.there and I remained strongly in favour of the euro. And Britain
:27:44. > :27:50.joining? Not now, obviously. 2000 you said it was time. It is
:27:50. > :27:54.not going to happen in this Parliament. In your lifetime?
:27:54. > :28:00.really don't know. I hope it will. Because I have always taken the
:28:00. > :28:05.view you cannot be blamed for economic realities, but the
:28:05. > :28:12.political determination it should be to have Britain within the
:28:12. > :28:20.single European currency if we are within the single trading area.
:28:20. > :28:24.said at one time, one size does not fit all. Clearly. At the same time,
:28:24. > :28:30.and it's interesting listening to what has been said at a continental
:28:30. > :28:35.level, there has to be a political will to get this fixed. If not, the
:28:35. > :28:42.economic implications for the UK are awful. We have run out of time
:28:42. > :28:45.for this subject. What a shame. That's all for today. Thanks to our
:28:45. > :28:47.guests, especially to Charles Kennedy. We'll be back at 11.30am