:00:27. > :00:31.Good afternoon and welcome to The Daily Politics. More gloomy news on
:00:31. > :00:37.the UK economy as it is revealed one in seven shops have been empty
:00:37. > :00:42.for a year. How can Greg be promoted? Lord Heseltine joins us.
:00:42. > :00:45.Is it time to change our relationship with Europe? Many on
:00:45. > :00:48.the Conservative backbenches thinks so, but will this coalition
:00:48. > :00:52.Government clawback powers from Brussels?
:00:52. > :00:57.They lost out in the recent Welsh Assembly elections, but we are not
:00:57. > :01:03.ignoring them. Plaid Cymru has set out their stall as their party
:01:03. > :01:07.conference begins. All that in the next half hour and
:01:07. > :01:13.with us for the programme today is businesswoman, entrepreneur and
:01:13. > :01:17.star of Dragons Den, Deborah Meaden. Welcome. Thank you.
:01:17. > :01:21.Government's Banking Commission, headed by Sir John Vickers, will
:01:21. > :01:25.call for the swift introduction of legislation to enact its
:01:25. > :01:28.recommendations, followed by a phasing in of the reforms. It will
:01:28. > :01:32.propose firewalls be erected between the High Street and
:01:33. > :01:36.investment arms of the big banks, protecting taxpayers from their
:01:36. > :01:41.riskier operations. The banks and some business groups had been
:01:41. > :01:44.lobbying for a protracted delay to these changes. Politically, voters
:01:44. > :01:50.will say a system that is set up to avoid a repeat of the banking
:01:50. > :01:54.crisis, having this firewall, is desirable. What about from a
:01:54. > :02:00.business point of view? completely get the emotion of it.
:02:00. > :02:04.It's sounds like it makes perfect sense. I issue is that businesses
:02:04. > :02:10.need to banks to lend and we do not need to introduce change that will
:02:10. > :02:16.inhibit back in any way. You think it well. I worry it well. It could
:02:16. > :02:20.make the retail banks more cautious. Also we go back to the root of it.
:02:20. > :02:25.Lehmann Brothers was an investment bank and that got into trouble and
:02:25. > :02:29.Northern Rock was a retail bank and that got into trouble. I think it
:02:29. > :02:34.is about the way it is regulated as opposed to changing the structure.
:02:34. > :02:38.If you do not support the idea, and it is a radical change, how worried
:02:38. > :02:42.are you that the banks, even if they do not enact these
:02:42. > :02:46.recommendations, how worried are you that they will start to
:02:46. > :02:52.transfers increase costs on to business and people like you and me.
:02:52. > :02:55.I am worried. I think the reform if it is too big a change, change
:02:55. > :03:00.means costs and that will definitely be passed on to me, the
:03:00. > :03:05.businesses. The simplest way of doing it is going to mean that the
:03:05. > :03:09.lowest cost to me as a business. The key is to find a mechanism to
:03:09. > :03:13.get the bank's lending again. are still not lending. Worse than
:03:13. > :03:19.that, good businesses that are doing very well, and they should
:03:19. > :03:23.not lend to businesses that are not good, but businesses doing very
:03:23. > :03:27.well are finding their covenants are being changed and if they
:03:27. > :03:32.dispose of assets, that money is being sucked into the bank and the
:03:32. > :03:36.bank is not releasing it again. should the banks be protected, why
:03:36. > :03:42.should they be bailed out by the taxpayer? Businesses like yours are
:03:43. > :03:45.not. It is not the banks that are being protected. It is ultimately
:03:45. > :03:51.the businesses that are being protected. They are the mechanism
:03:51. > :03:56.by which we get our cash. If the banks are allowed to fail, I fail
:03:56. > :04:01.as well. I think that protection is through the banks, but it is about
:04:01. > :04:07.protecting the individual and those businesses. That is the only reason
:04:07. > :04:11.those banks will sell. More gloomy economic news this morning as a
:04:11. > :04:16.survey reveals one in seven shops in the UK have been empty for a
:04:16. > :04:20.year. In some parts of the country as many as a third of retail units
:04:20. > :04:23.are empty. On Tuesday the Chancellor admitted growth would be
:04:23. > :04:28.sluggish for this foreseeable future, while some warn of a
:04:28. > :04:32.double-dip recession. How can we left ourselves out of the worst
:04:32. > :04:38.economic slowdown in living memory? First, here is Giles Dilnot.
:04:38. > :04:43.It is what a fired-up economy does, it is the process by which recovery
:04:43. > :04:47.comes, it is growth, the expansion of businesses and services that
:04:47. > :04:53.make money. Ever since it came to power, the coalition Government has
:04:53. > :04:55.peddled the idea that if you concentrated on fiscal repair,
:04:55. > :05:00.deficit-reduction and monetary stability, then growth happened as
:05:00. > :05:04.a result. But increasingly businesses and economists are
:05:04. > :05:09.suggesting that is different from having the measures to promote
:05:09. > :05:15.growth. This perceived lack of a growth strategy is starting to
:05:15. > :05:19.cause a bit of frustration. Intense frustration at what is going on. I
:05:19. > :05:24.see a lot of people wanting reforms and a lot of disappointment. Growth
:05:24. > :05:29.has slowed quite substantially. There has been a change of mood.
:05:29. > :05:35.What is needed according to the City and business is a more
:05:35. > :05:38.strategic growth plan. Government can do that, since many businesses,
:05:38. > :05:44.especially small ones, are necessarily to focus on getting
:05:44. > :05:49.through the next month than looking at how it grows in uncertain times.
:05:49. > :05:55.We have had atrocious recession. Anyone still alive now has done
:05:55. > :05:58.well to fair the storm. But my belief is there are loads of
:05:58. > :06:02.businesses out there that have far more potential than they are
:06:02. > :06:07.fulfilling. I wonder whether there is an opportunity for us or the
:06:08. > :06:13.Government as a whole to try and a support them and bring them forward
:06:13. > :06:17.and say, we will give you some guidance. Not necessarily cash, but
:06:17. > :06:21.good advice. Does that mean the Government being more directly
:06:21. > :06:26.involved, intervening, in helping companies to grow? Does that mean
:06:26. > :06:30.more use of the regional growth fund? I am sceptical about the
:06:30. > :06:36.Government tried to Micra manage or determine the shape of the recovery.
:06:36. > :06:40.This does not work. You cannot do that. You need a cultural
:06:40. > :06:44.revolution, a different attitude in embracing growth. The Government
:06:44. > :06:51.has to say we want businesses to grow and they have to do something
:06:51. > :06:57.about it. That means a rowing back of employment regulations and tax
:06:57. > :07:01.breaks, thing as the Chancellor could do. Where confidence is
:07:01. > :07:08.turned upside down, like euro debt, he has less control of it. But in
:07:08. > :07:17.the end is building breath about changing mood? What we have seen is
:07:17. > :07:20.unpredictable. Tackling uncertainty is a far less exact science. I am
:07:20. > :07:24.joined by Lord Heseltine, an adviser to the Government's
:07:24. > :07:30.regional growth fund. Deborah Meaden is still with me. The Bank
:07:30. > :07:36.of England has kept interest rates at a record historic low. It is the
:07:37. > :07:43.32nd month. No real surprise. Since September 2010, the economy has
:07:43. > :07:47.only grown by 0.2%. How worried I knew about growth? Well, we are all
:07:47. > :07:53.worried, but that does not mean to say there are simple solutions. If
:07:53. > :07:56.I was the Chancellor today, I would realise that I am living in an
:07:56. > :08:01.extremely uncertain world where there are very serious downside
:08:01. > :08:07.risks. The thing people want most from the Chancellor is he keeps his
:08:07. > :08:12.nerve, pursues policies that keep us out of the crisis world of
:08:12. > :08:18.southern Europe, and recognises there is relatively little that a
:08:18. > :08:22.Government can do. That is the key. The Government has no real money to
:08:22. > :08:27.spend. Interest rates are at an historic low, so you cannot go much
:08:27. > :08:32.further down. The Government is leading the 50 pence top rate of
:08:32. > :08:37.tax for the moment. What levers are there at George Osborne's disposal
:08:37. > :08:42.to kick-start the economy? regional fund I have is an example
:08:43. > :08:47.of what you can do and it has some effect. We have a �1.4 billion to
:08:47. > :08:53.spend. Less than the regional development agencies. It is not
:08:53. > :08:57.comparable because ours is a challenge fund. If we have �1.4
:08:57. > :09:04.billion of taxpayers' money, we are probably getting six times as much
:09:04. > :09:09.private money on top of that. You will find yourself it is �8 million
:09:10. > :09:15.over three years. Particularly in the more regional outlying areas
:09:15. > :09:19.which we are targeting. What are you doing with it? We heard from
:09:19. > :09:23.the businesses that the biggest problem is uncertainty. Does they
:09:23. > :09:30.need to be more targeting by the Government and by the fund you are
:09:30. > :09:34.advising on? Our fund is already effectively closed because we have
:09:34. > :09:38.had so many bits and we are oversubscribed and we are now
:09:38. > :09:43.allocating the cash. That is a piece of done business, but the
:09:43. > :09:49.money will flow. There are very limited things Government can do,
:09:49. > :09:53.but I will suggest two. First is to look through the filing cabinets of
:09:53. > :09:59.Whitehall for all the decisions that are sitting in ministers'
:09:59. > :10:04.offices that have not been taken and a wartime attitude that says we
:10:04. > :10:08.have got to get every decision taken, either to end uncertainty,
:10:08. > :10:13.or to let something go ahead. If the planning authorities did the
:10:13. > :10:16.same thing, that would release a certain amount of opportunity. The
:10:16. > :10:21.second thing is they can look at all the capital programmes they
:10:21. > :10:27.have got and use them for a challenge purposes, competitive
:10:27. > :10:32.purposes. Instead of saying, we will use a �1 building a public
:10:32. > :10:36.sector has come at they would say, we have got one pound of public
:10:36. > :10:41.money, what are we offered if we put it up for competition in terms
:10:41. > :10:46.of additional Gearing? Does then need to be more pushing growth in
:10:46. > :10:52.terms of the Government tried to spend more money, so it is not
:10:52. > :10:55.focusing so much on posterity? It is trying to booze consumer demand.
:10:55. > :11:01.That is using the existing levels of public expenditure to create
:11:01. > :11:06.bigger demand and to loosen up money that the private sector is
:11:06. > :11:12.prepared to add to what the Government has got. Do you agree
:11:12. > :11:15.with his perceived lack of a growth strategy? No, I think there are all
:11:15. > :11:20.sorts of politicians and commentators who have said we need
:11:20. > :11:25.growth. Of course we would like to have growth. But if you are sitting
:11:25. > :11:29.in a business, you know there is a massive uncertainty out there. When
:11:29. > :11:34.someone says, would you like to spend money on this or that? There
:11:34. > :11:39.is not the confidence to take that decision. If you are a banker, you
:11:39. > :11:43.are worried about the next banking crisis. You are trying to get your
:11:44. > :11:49.debts under control. All of us are holding back and until the mood
:11:49. > :11:57.changes, you will not see expansion. That to me is the issue. It is
:11:57. > :12:03.about perception. I have talked to a lot of small businesses and I
:12:03. > :12:06.have got a nice basket of people to talk to. There was this big mood
:12:06. > :12:12.when the Government first came in and we had an emergency budget and
:12:12. > :12:17.it was galvanising, we have got to take some medicine. I think there
:12:18. > :12:22.is a gap because now when I talk to people they feel, what now? They
:12:22. > :12:27.feel like they are not being spoken to and they are not being brought
:12:27. > :12:33.along. We are going to have tough times, but there is not a
:12:33. > :12:38.communications. Do you think the Government's plan A is wrong? The
:12:38. > :12:44.idea it is all about austerity and cuts and wage freezes, the public
:12:44. > :12:48.sector losing jobs, pensions losing money. Has that got to slow down?
:12:48. > :12:52.certainly do not think it was wrong when it was brought in. We had a
:12:52. > :13:00.job to do and we had to do it quickly and I felt like, let's get
:13:01. > :13:05.on with it. I think we have to review it, as if the country was a
:13:05. > :13:10.big business. In any business you have to review what is happening.
:13:10. > :13:15.Do you agree with that? Do you think George Osborne needs to look
:13:15. > :13:19.at slowing down the pace of that austerity? No, what I think is what
:13:19. > :13:25.I have said. They could use elements of the existing plan to
:13:25. > :13:30.get bigger expenditure consequences. However, I think there is a
:13:30. > :13:35.political problem. George Osborne knows that he is on the most
:13:35. > :13:40.fragile of economic territory. He has to be highly irresponsible in
:13:40. > :13:43.handling that. What he cannot do is give an impression that it is all
:13:43. > :13:48.going to be wonderful tomorrow, because it is not going to be
:13:48. > :13:53.wonderful, and he would get found out. On the other hand, if he goes
:13:53. > :13:58.around saying, it is going to be rough, he would be accused of
:13:58. > :14:03.undermining what little confidence there is. I agree, but when you set
:14:03. > :14:07.out a business plan and things do not go according to that plan, I
:14:07. > :14:12.believe you have to address that. You have to communicate that. The
:14:12. > :14:19.truth is it has not gone according to plan. I am now left feeling, now
:14:19. > :14:24.what? You cannot shoot off in this direction or at that direction, but
:14:25. > :14:30.it is that type of communication. Most of it was right, but these are
:14:30. > :14:34.the bits we need to change. A group of economists have claimed the 50
:14:35. > :14:40.pence top rate of tax makes Britain a less attractive place to invest
:14:40. > :14:43.in. Do you agree with that? Yes, but I do not think it is a
:14:43. > :14:48.determining factor in how the economy would respond in the next
:14:48. > :14:52.six months. It was a political trap by the Labour Party to try to get
:14:52. > :14:56.the Tories to fight on the electoral ground. Is he right to
:14:57. > :15:02.retain it? Politically at the moment, but it has got to go as
:15:02. > :15:06.soon as possible. Is it making Britain less attractive? I think
:15:06. > :15:11.the facts need to ascertain whether or not it is right. We can sit here
:15:11. > :15:19.and guess. If we make a decision now, it is a political decision,
:15:19. > :15:24.It looks like Europe is going to become a hot issue in government
:15:24. > :15:27.again. David Cameron and Nick Clegg have so far managed to keep a lid
:15:27. > :15:32.on the simmering tensions in the coalition. That could be about to
:15:32. > :15:36.change. Next week, up to 80 Euro- sceptic MPs are planning to meet to
:15:36. > :15:40.press the Government used the crisis in the eurozone to change
:15:40. > :15:45.Britain's relationship with Europe. Many want to seek a referendum.
:15:45. > :15:50.There's pressure from outside with independent MEP Nikki Sinclair due
:15:50. > :15:54.to hand in a 100,000 name petition to Downing Street, calling for a
:15:54. > :15:58.straight in or out of vote. Lord Lawson has called for David Cameron
:15:58. > :16:02.to use the current crisis as an opportunity to terror at the Lisbon
:16:02. > :16:06.Treaty. He argues, enough is enough. This is worrying the Liberal
:16:06. > :16:09.Democrat side of the coalition. Speaking to the New Statesman,
:16:09. > :16:13.Danny Alexander called for further involvement in Europe, saying we
:16:13. > :16:18.should be redoubling our effort, not looking at this as an excuse to
:16:18. > :16:20.further run agenda of weakening our times. David Cameron has repeatedly
:16:20. > :16:25.said this is not the time for renegotiation and stated that we
:16:25. > :16:29.must have a eurozone that works. That's not exactly music to
:16:29. > :16:35.Conservative backbench ears. Conservative MP Mark Reckless had
:16:35. > :16:38.this to put the Prime Minister. Prime Minister has listened to
:16:38. > :16:42.Liberal Democrat colleagues by delaying the police elections until
:16:42. > :16:49.November next year. Will he now listen to Conservative colleagues
:16:49. > :16:55.and take that opportunity to hold a referendum on Europe? A genius way
:16:55. > :16:58.of putting the question. As I explained yesterday, I want us to
:16:58. > :17:03.be influential in Europe about the things that matter to our national
:17:03. > :17:08.interests. David Cameron. With us now is Conservative MP and Co
:17:08. > :17:12.author of the book Masters of Nothing, Masters of Nothing. And
:17:12. > :17:16.the chairman of the Liberal Democrat parliamentary committee on
:17:16. > :17:19.parliamentary affairs, Martin Hall. Can I start with you? There is
:17:19. > :17:22.clearly an happiness on the Tory backbenchers that more is not being
:17:22. > :17:25.done to crawl back powers from Brussels. It's something that was
:17:25. > :17:28.certainly suggested by the Government at the beginning. There
:17:29. > :17:34.is growing demand for them to use the eurozone crisis to renegotiate
:17:34. > :17:37.their position. Which powers do you want clawed back? Well, you know
:17:37. > :17:44.that a number of a has signed a letter to the Financial Times. What
:17:44. > :17:47.we are calling for is essentially to use the opportunity of the
:17:47. > :17:52.current integration that Europe may have to go through, to claw back
:17:52. > :17:56.the powers around employment and social legislation. It is the
:17:56. > :17:59.social chapter? David Cameron has made clear there is not going to be
:17:59. > :18:04.any in or out referendum. He didn't seem to answer questions yesterday.
:18:04. > :18:08.What pressure can you bring to bear on him? I think the idea of the
:18:08. > :18:11.referendum is a distraction. We would agree that the meeting that
:18:11. > :18:15.is going to take place on Monday is not about if we are to have a
:18:15. > :18:19.referendum now. I think that would be wrong and divisive. What we are
:18:19. > :18:22.talking about his 80 or so Conservative Members of Parliament
:18:22. > :18:26.coming-together to begin to think through what are the things that,
:18:26. > :18:29.when the time is right, in six months, a year, two years time,
:18:29. > :18:33.when Europe does physically consolidate, which it looks like
:18:33. > :18:37.they will have to, the Chancellor has said they will probably have to,
:18:37. > :18:43.and we want to be supportive, but, due to use that opportunity to
:18:43. > :18:46.actually bring back powers? Alan Lib Dem coalition partners are
:18:47. > :18:51.passionate about the localism agenda. The more power that we can
:18:51. > :18:54.bring back locally, the better we are going forward as part of Europe,
:18:54. > :18:57.supporting the European project in a healthy way. But there is no
:18:57. > :19:01.signal from David Cameron that you are going to get your way or this
:19:01. > :19:05.or that they will go down that path? That's not true, David
:19:05. > :19:10.Cameron is on record as saying that when the opportunity arises...
:19:10. > :19:14.he hasn't given a time, nothing on record to say when it will be. He's
:19:14. > :19:18.effectively kicked it into the long grass? Our duty as backbenchers is
:19:18. > :19:23.to do the thinking ahead of that. We don't want to be negotiating...
:19:23. > :19:28.That's very good of you! Provide Liberal Democrat perspective, we
:19:28. > :19:31.heard Nick Clegg giving a speech saying it's the wrong time to start
:19:32. > :19:35.renegotiating, we have to support Europe. How big an issue is it
:19:35. > :19:39.going to be in terms of dividing with your Tory colleagues? I don't
:19:39. > :19:43.think it's a dividing line, we agree with Conservative ministers.
:19:43. > :19:46.To try and inject an argument about British status within the European
:19:46. > :19:49.Union, at a time when European governments are trying to
:19:49. > :19:52.delicately renegotiate their way and find a path way through the
:19:52. > :19:56.crisis, it's the governmental equivalent of antisocial behaviour.
:19:56. > :20:01.But that is what they want to do, look at that position fairly soon?
:20:01. > :20:04.Yes, backbenchers. It's not the view of Conservative ministers or
:20:04. > :20:08.Liberal Democrat in the house. We've always been in favour of an
:20:08. > :20:12.in or out referendum at a time of fundamental shift. We spent an
:20:12. > :20:18.inordinate amount of parliamentary time creating the EU Act, which
:20:18. > :20:22.creates a tough regime saying that anything changing beat relationship
:20:22. > :20:25.will be subject to parliamentary scrutiny and possibly a referendum
:20:25. > :20:30.in many circumstances. That should be good enough for Conservative
:20:30. > :20:33.colleagues. Good enough? I would say we are in violent agreement. We
:20:33. > :20:37.are just saying that we are doing a bit of thinking. If you are going
:20:37. > :20:40.to negotiate with someone, there's no point back to doing it on the
:20:40. > :20:47.spur of the moment. The duty of backbenchers is to do a bit of
:20:47. > :20:49.brainstorming, coming up with ideas that we can present to government
:20:49. > :20:53.to say they are some of the ideas for a healthy relationship and
:20:53. > :20:57.settlement with Europe. Lord Heseltine, do you welcome the
:20:57. > :21:01.Liberal Democrat input on this issue in the coalition? I strongly
:21:01. > :21:05.support the Prime Minister's position. His position is that of
:21:05. > :21:11.every Prime Minister I'd worked for, from Harold Macmillan to Lord Hulme,
:21:11. > :21:15.Ted Heath, Margaret Thatcher, John Major. They have all presided over
:21:15. > :21:19.a close relationship with Britain and Europe. That's for one reason,
:21:20. > :21:24.it is in British interests. There has always been a group of people
:21:24. > :21:28.in the Labour Party, and they were against the European Common Market,
:21:28. > :21:34.in the Conservative Party, there has always been a group trying to
:21:34. > :21:39.frustrate the European concept. It is still there. Very well known to
:21:39. > :21:46.you, obviously, because of the times during the 80s and 90s. Is it
:21:46. > :21:49.different now cost and Mark --? The group of MPs that of boys and is
:21:49. > :21:52.content and new MPs. They put David Cameron there. We are not talking
:21:52. > :21:56.about some veteran MPs. Does that change the game and put more
:21:56. > :22:00.pressure on him? It depends on how many there are and what the
:22:01. > :22:05.circumstances are. Certainly when Lady Thatcher ran the Conservative
:22:05. > :22:12.Party and John Major, they had a very substantial group of Euro-
:22:12. > :22:16.sceptics on their backbenchers. I would say one thing, in what is an
:22:16. > :22:20.extremely fragile world situation, if you want to life the tinderbox,
:22:20. > :22:23.just start saying that Britain is going to start to try and
:22:23. > :22:29.renegotiate their position in Europe. It's about the last thing
:22:29. > :22:37.anyone wants. Day you go? I think this whole argument of Barbara you
:22:38. > :22:42.Nobody is saying that we want to pull out of Europe. Even by going
:22:42. > :22:47.at this issue, are you threatening the coalition's and the
:22:47. > :22:50.Government's position? To be quite honest, you are saying that nobody
:22:50. > :22:53.wants to pull out. All of the people that want a referendum want
:22:53. > :22:57.to pull out. They think with the help of Euro-sceptic press they
:22:57. > :23:01.could win a referendum. That is what it's about. They never wanted
:23:01. > :23:07.a referendum when they could not win it. It's pure opportunism.
:23:07. > :23:11.can't deny that, can you? I don't believe, if you take top of the
:23:11. > :23:15.head reaction, some of the polling day have been bandied about, that
:23:15. > :23:20.is the true picture. But that is the aim. George Eustace, one of
:23:20. > :23:22.your Tory backbench colleagues, said today that David Cameron is
:23:23. > :23:27.the more -- most Euro-sceptic Prime Minister they have had in a long
:23:27. > :23:31.time. They think they have a way in. He also said the referendum is a
:23:31. > :23:37.distraction. We're talking about using an opportunity to think
:23:37. > :23:40.through what sort of relationship we want with in a healthy European
:23:40. > :23:44.Union that delivers for the UK. I was a businessman before I became a
:23:44. > :23:49.politician. 40% of our exports are to this market, we wanted to
:23:49. > :23:52.succeed. He does have a point, people are looking at the eurozone
:23:52. > :23:57.and saying it's a basket case. Isn't this the ideal opportunity?
:23:57. > :24:02.Why shouldn't we look at the British position, because we are
:24:02. > :24:07.being destabilised by it? If we loosened some of the ties,
:24:07. > :24:11.especially as you would see it, harmful labour laws, it's the time
:24:11. > :24:15.to loosen our ties with the EU? It's the worst possible time to
:24:15. > :24:19.throw spanners in the works and complicate the already complicated
:24:19. > :24:22.situation. The best time is when we have fundamental changes, like the
:24:22. > :24:26.Lisbon Treaty or the Maastricht treaty. That is when we might have
:24:26. > :24:31.missed the opportunity to have the referendum. If we want one, maybe
:24:31. > :24:35.we should have one in the future at a similar time? Are you glad we
:24:35. > :24:39.didn't join the euro? It's difficult in hindsight. But yes, I
:24:39. > :24:44.think so. But I agree with the Prime Minister's position on the EU.
:24:44. > :24:48.I'm very supportive of that. still think we should join? Given
:24:48. > :24:52.the lack of fiscal discipline in the eurozone, which we can now see
:24:52. > :24:56.causing enormous problems, with hindsight, I'm glad we are not in
:24:56. > :24:58.there at the moment. You would like to join in the future? It if the
:24:58. > :25:02.euros and sorts out its problems and applies the fiscal discipline
:25:02. > :25:06.we are replying in this country now, quite rightly, which they said they
:25:06. > :25:11.would apply in the eurozone, I think the debate is open-ended
:25:11. > :25:16.future. Thank you very much. A poor showing for The Party for Wales and
:25:16. > :25:20.the Welsh Assembly elections in May. Plaid Cymru lost four seats, coming
:25:20. > :25:25.third place after the Conservatives. Ben Needham is standing down. This
:25:25. > :25:31.weekend they have decamped to Llandudno to lick their wounds at
:25:31. > :25:34.the party conference. I am joined by the party president. You came
:25:35. > :25:38.third behind the Tories in the Welsh Assembly elections. Isn't it
:25:38. > :25:45.obvious now that the Welsh have no interest at all in independence?
:25:45. > :25:48.Well, we've had a very interesting year. In March, we had a tremendous
:25:48. > :25:51.success in the referendum for law- making powers. In effect, that
:25:51. > :25:56.makes our assembly into a parliament. That was on the
:25:56. > :26:02.condition of... Up sorry, that is not about your party. The party
:26:02. > :26:06.hasn't done well? A well, the party achieved that. If it wasn't for
:26:07. > :26:10.Plaid Cymru, that wouldn't have happened. The results in May were
:26:10. > :26:14.disappointing. We are carrying out a review and we are looking at the
:26:14. > :26:18.situation. We are also entering a totally new, exciting period for
:26:18. > :26:24.the party. We will be electing a new leader, as you said.
:26:24. > :26:29.Politically, the situation in the UK is changing. Independence is now
:26:29. > :26:32.firmly on the agenda with the SNP government in Scotland moving
:26:32. > :26:36.towards a referendum. Our priority will be to ensure that Wales is not
:26:36. > :26:40.left behind. That it is part of the debate and part of the process.
:26:40. > :26:45.isn't it actually the difference between the SNP in Scotland and
:26:45. > :26:49.Plaid Cymru in Wales, the fact that the SNP have been very successful
:26:49. > :26:52.recently and Plaid Cymru had, there is no appetite for it in Wales? Are
:26:52. > :26:57.you saying you are going to create an appetite for independence now?
:26:57. > :27:01.Well, we are starting the debate on independence in terms of our party.
:27:01. > :27:06.We want independence rather than dependence. That is the situation
:27:06. > :27:10.we are in now. Particularly in a time of economic crisis, we have to
:27:10. > :27:15.look at how best to build up Wales's economy, create more jobs,
:27:15. > :27:18.create a sustainable economy. In the European context, this debate
:27:19. > :27:23.is taking place in several countries across Europe. There are
:27:23. > :27:27.other nations moving towards independence. We have to have this
:27:27. > :27:32.debate with the people of Wales, the people of Wales will decide
:27:32. > :27:35.which direction we take in future. But this is what we believe is best,
:27:36. > :27:40.in the best interests of Wales and all of the people that live there.
:27:40. > :27:46.In terms of the economy, difficult times, what distinguishes you and
:27:46. > :27:52.Plaid Cymru to Labour in terms of the views towards the economy?
:27:52. > :27:57.what we want to do is to look at, for example, our natural assets,
:27:57. > :28:01.all of the ways in which we can develop industries based on
:28:01. > :28:07.alternative energy sources and so on. We have just commissioned a
:28:07. > :28:11.report which shows that, actually, in this worldwide economic crisis,
:28:11. > :28:15.the small countries, small, independent countries, are working
:28:15. > :28:19.together and can actually fare better than larger countries. We
:28:19. > :28:25.are looking seriously at the ways in which we can develop within the
:28:25. > :28:28.European Union context, if we were a member state and our own right in
:28:28. > :28:33.Europe. Then we would be able to get a lot more benefits within that
:28:33. > :28:38.context because the UK government is not fighting for what is in
:28:38. > :28:42.Wales's interests. Gil Evans, thank you very much. Enjoy the party
:28:42. > :28:45.conference. That is all for today, thanks to all of our guests,