:00:25. > :00:28.Afternoon, folks. Welcome to the Daily Politics. We are back from
:00:28. > :00:35.Birmingham and not an emergency motion or a warm glass of cheap
:00:35. > :00:38.white wine in sight! But it is not all good news. The economy is back
:00:38. > :00:42.in intensive care and the Bank of England is preparing for emergency
:00:42. > :00:47.action. Again! But what, if anything, will reassure the
:00:47. > :00:51.markets? The Travellers of Dale Farm await tomorrow's High Court
:00:51. > :00:56.decision. If it goes against them, they face eviction. The leader of
:00:56. > :01:01.the council will join us. And, David Cameron is in America, urging
:01:01. > :01:05.all and sundry to visit this country? So what slogan is he using
:01:05. > :01:15.to sell Broken Britain to the Yanks? Will Cool Britannia ride
:01:15. > :01:21.
:01:21. > :01:24.And with us for the duration, Toby Young, former writer for the Modern
:01:25. > :01:34.Review and Vanity Fair. And now the co-founder of the West London Free
:01:35. > :01:36.
:01:36. > :01:39.School, which has just opened in Welcome to the programme. So, first
:01:39. > :01:45.up, Toby. You are the man who persuaded Vanity Fair to do that
:01:45. > :01:48.big splash on Cool Britannia. Take a look at all these. This is the
:01:48. > :01:55.new advertising campaign David Cameron is launching in New York.
:01:55. > :01:58.The slogan - is GREAT - in capital letters - Britain - You're invited.
:01:59. > :02:08.These are some of the posters. Not quite the broken Britain theme he's
:02:09. > :02:11.
:02:11. > :02:16.What do you think? They looked OK. When we had the conversation at
:02:16. > :02:23.Vanity Fair, we were sitting around the table, trying to persuade them
:02:23. > :02:29.that Britain was back. They imagined that detecting where does
:02:29. > :02:34.zeitgeist did, the forensic scientific process, divining rods
:02:34. > :02:38.and putting up antennae, it is about whether you can say it
:02:38. > :02:46.confidently enough. If you can do that make you can persuade
:02:46. > :02:51.everybody it is back and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Does it
:02:51. > :02:58.have the better bring about it, Cool Britannia? Great Britain has
:02:58. > :03:06.been around for longer. Americans refer to us as Great Britain.
:03:06. > :03:10.this a slightly different thing? Great Britain is being sold to the
:03:10. > :03:19.Americans. Cool Britannia was a mark-making politics cool as well.
:03:19. > :03:24.It was about Number 10 getting involved. -- about making. Tony
:03:24. > :03:30.Blair hesitated about being photographed by Vanity Fair. It was
:03:30. > :03:34.before he had been elected. It came up at the beginning of 1997, just
:03:34. > :03:39.before the election. John Major could have claimed credit for
:03:39. > :03:46.having created this phenomenon. He was the Prime Minister at the time.
:03:46. > :03:51.Tony Blair was talking about, wouldn't we be crediting John Major
:03:51. > :03:58.with it? In the end he was persuaded that Labour would be
:03:58. > :04:06.profiting in this. I did not realise about John Major being the
:04:06. > :04:11.true architect of Cool Britannia. There was a sense of optimism in
:04:11. > :04:17.1997. The economy was on the rise. The economy was going well and
:04:17. > :04:22.there was a lot of creativity going on in the British culture. That is
:04:22. > :04:27.true. That certainly does not seem to be as pronounced now. I think
:04:27. > :04:33.that, given the Olympics are coming up, and things are pretty grim in
:04:33. > :04:38.America as well, I do not think that tourism will fall of next year.
:04:38. > :04:44.There were the riots. They talked about Britain having a broken
:04:44. > :04:48.society. It seems incongruous to say, it is great here. Parts of
:04:48. > :04:55.society can be broken but overall it is a great country. What can we
:04:55. > :05:01.expect any Prime Minister - a Labour, Liberal or conservative -
:05:01. > :05:07.to do? Do not think the broken society bit is overplayed? I'm not
:05:07. > :05:13.sure how widely that is played abroad. The Government of trying to
:05:13. > :05:20.do something to restore confidence in Britain in the wake of the riots.
:05:20. > :05:26.Can you remember where that phrase came from, Cool Britannia? I do not
:05:26. > :05:34.know. It came from a band. They coined the phrase. I can assure you,
:05:34. > :05:38.they were not cool. You had all their records, didn't you? I did.
:05:38. > :05:41.I'm not singing any of them. The Business Secretary, Vince Cable,
:05:41. > :05:47.gave a pretty gloomy assessment of our economic prospects at his party
:05:47. > :05:52.conference. It is all grey skies ahead, he warned. There are no
:05:52. > :06:01.sunny uplands in sight. In fact, he told us all to don our flak jackets
:06:01. > :06:04.and tin hats. This, he said, is war. We now face a crisis that is the
:06:04. > :06:14.economic equivalent of war and this is not a time for business as usual
:06:14. > :06:19.
:06:19. > :06:22.or politics as usual. You never mistake him for a rate of sunshine.
:06:22. > :06:24.The International Monetary Fund has been warning that the world economy
:06:24. > :06:27.is entering a dangerous new phase. Well, last night, the Americans
:06:27. > :06:31.launched Operation Twist - a $400 billion offensive, trying to
:06:31. > :06:33.prevent the world's biggest economy sliding back into recession. The
:06:33. > :06:37.Federal Reserve hopes the new campaign can prevent a dangerous
:06:37. > :06:40.phase turning into a full-scale slump. In Europe, Greece is still
:06:40. > :06:43.in retreat. Prime Minister George Papandreou is still trying to
:06:43. > :06:48.negotiate another �96 billion to get the country through the next
:06:48. > :06:55.month or two. Economic growth forecasts in the Eurozone have been
:06:55. > :06:59.slashed. Down from 2% to 1.6%. But some think even that might turn out
:06:59. > :07:06.to be optimistic. And here at home, growth forecasts are also on the
:07:06. > :07:10.slide. Down from 1.5% to 1.1%. Down again for the third time in a year.
:07:10. > :07:13.The IMF is normally pretty keen on cutting back deficits. But this
:07:13. > :07:17.lack of growth has got it worried. Because if there is no growth,
:07:17. > :07:21.there is not much in the way of tax receipts. And paying off the
:07:21. > :07:24.deficit gets more difficult still. In a recent report, the IMF said
:07:24. > :07:28.that if this goes on, David Cameron and Angela Merkel should consider
:07:28. > :07:34.delaying some of their planned adjustment in Britain and Germany.
:07:34. > :07:37.That's IMF speak for easing back on the cuts. And we now know that the
:07:37. > :07:40.Bank of England came close to ordering a second round of what is
:07:40. > :07:44.called quantitative easing at their meeting last month. That's printing
:07:44. > :07:48.money and spreading it around to you and me. The papers are calling
:07:48. > :07:55.it Operation QE2. So, that's Vince Cable's war crisis. And it most
:07:55. > :07:58.certainly won't be over by Christmas. With us now is the
:07:58. > :08:01.Shadow Business minister, Labour's Chuka Umunna. And for the
:08:01. > :08:08.Conservatives, Matt Hancock - a former Bank of England economist
:08:08. > :08:13.and ex chief of staff to George Osborne. He is just a humble MP
:08:13. > :08:18.these days. His career has obviously hit the buffers. Under
:08:18. > :08:21.the last Labour but -- government, when the printing of money was
:08:21. > :08:26.beginning, George Osborne said, printing money is the last resort
:08:26. > :08:31.of desperate governments, when all other policies have failed. So,
:08:31. > :08:37.you're desperate and all other policies have failed... Gordon
:08:37. > :08:41.Brown certainly got us into a desperate state. At the root of
:08:41. > :08:47.this is the debt crisis. We need to understand this is a debt crisis
:08:47. > :08:55.before we can think about how to get out of it. We have the highest
:08:55. > :09:01.amount of debt as a proportion of our income of any major government
:09:01. > :09:06.in a country ever. We know that. Buy your own words, although George
:09:06. > :09:10.Osborne said them, I suspect they are your words, you wrote them, the
:09:11. > :09:14.fact we now seem to be heading for a second round of quantitative
:09:14. > :09:22.easing is a sign that all your existing policies have failed and
:09:22. > :09:27.that we are desperate. Well, we were in a desperate situation.
:09:27. > :09:32.are in it again? Look at what is going on around the world! In the
:09:32. > :09:37.euro area they have a debt crisis and a cordon Asian crisis of have
:09:37. > :09:43.to get out of it. The Americans are in a very difficult position. What
:09:43. > :09:47.we do have here is a clear plan to tackle the debt. We have always
:09:47. > :09:52.been straightforward about the fact that the best way out of the debt
:09:52. > :09:56.crisis is to face the debt - have a plan to do with them - and allow
:09:56. > :10:01.monetary policy to act and keep the economy going on the right track.
:10:01. > :10:05.It is up to the Bank of England. As the minutes yesterday showed they
:10:05. > :10:13.have talking about whether they need to do quantitative easing.
:10:13. > :10:18.Labour position is that spending has been cut by too much, too
:10:18. > :10:25.quickly. Is that a rough summary? That is right. If you look at the
:10:25. > :10:31.figures we got from the ONS last week, as a result of that, 111,000
:10:31. > :10:37.jobs further weight in the public sector. Only 41,000 where created
:10:37. > :10:43.in the private sector. Let me ask you this, if I have categorised the
:10:43. > :10:47.position correctly. I had two further questions. By how much has
:10:47. > :10:53.government spending been cut in the current year and how much would you
:10:53. > :10:57.cut it? I cannot give you the exact figure for the current year.
:10:57. > :11:07.cannot. I will give it to them. Government spending in this
:11:07. > :11:08.
:11:08. > :11:15.financial year - 2011/2012 - has been cut in total by 0.7%. By how
:11:15. > :11:23.much less would you cut it? As I said, I am not able to give you the
:11:24. > :11:30.exact figure. That is not much anyway. You're looking at a
:11:30. > :11:36.proportion of GDP. No, overall public spending. Are you really
:11:36. > :11:40.saying that is too much, too quickly? There is still a big
:11:40. > :11:45.difference between what we're proposing and they are proposing.
:11:46. > :11:52.They are imposing �10 million more of taxes in the form of the VAT
:11:52. > :11:59.rise. That will cost about �450 a year. You have got them to-ing �30
:11:59. > :12:05.million more worth of cuts. Would you not do these cuts? -- �230
:12:05. > :12:09.million. Public spending is only going down by 0.7% this year. It
:12:09. > :12:13.seems you have not got much latitude to do less. It is not
:12:13. > :12:21.being cut by much anyway. Would you cut it a tall and increase
:12:21. > :12:26.spending? I cannot give you a specific figure. -- at all. We
:12:26. > :12:30.would look to reduce the deficit - half the deficit - over the course
:12:30. > :12:35.of the parliament instead of eliminating it. The big thing that
:12:35. > :12:40.is affecting the economy at the moment is conflict. It is the
:12:40. > :12:44.question of what people think will happen in the future. I do not
:12:44. > :12:54.think there will be much confidence. The Spending Review was announced
:12:54. > :12:54.
:12:54. > :12:58.in October of last year. We saw confidence nosedived -- nosedive.
:12:59. > :13:02.We were talking about the international context. We have seen
:13:02. > :13:07.our economies claimed more than any other country in the G7, apart from
:13:07. > :13:12.Japan, which of course had the earthquake. We are seeing a
:13:12. > :13:19.detrimental impact on the economy. In the last quarter, it was not
:13:19. > :13:26.good but UK growth was the second- fastest in the GDP. You are talking
:13:26. > :13:34.about decimal points. It was 0.2%. You do not get confidence by not
:13:34. > :13:39.having a plan. He cannot tell you what the Labour Party plan is.
:13:40. > :13:47.me hear from Toby Young. I will give you some decimal points. The
:13:47. > :13:53.IMF did revise down its forecast by 0.1%. It also revised down the
:13:53. > :14:03.spend forecast -- Spain will cost to 0.8% and the Italian broadcast
:14:03. > :14:09.by 0.6%. -- forecast. There is no major Western economy in which you
:14:09. > :14:17.can have great confidence, with the possible exception of Germany.
:14:17. > :14:21.we just rise above this petty point-scoring? Any of us can do
:14:21. > :14:27.that. There is a very serious crisis going on. It is very serious
:14:28. > :14:33.in the eurozone. It is very serious in America. Far better is to have a
:14:33. > :14:36.plan that involves all of the... Having a plan to get to deal with
:14:37. > :14:43.government debts but also allowing the economy to be managed by the
:14:43. > :14:49.Bank of England. That is a very clear plan this government has. In
:14:49. > :14:59.this great crisis... Tell me one major economic indicator for this
:14:59. > :15:00.
:15:00. > :15:05.The business investment has been doing better than others. It is on
:15:05. > :15:12.it back. This morning, there was a survey of manufacturing
:15:13. > :15:18.expectations, which was reasonably positive. Let's not say it...
:15:18. > :15:24.working? You need a plan that will work. We have seen record borrowing
:15:24. > :15:28.in August, and you have seen... should be in favour of that, so why
:15:28. > :15:33.are you complaining? Matthew has been saying they have a plan and it
:15:33. > :15:40.is working, and that is to reduce the deficit by a large amount. But
:15:40. > :15:44.it isn't working. In the last year of the Labour government, borrowing
:15:44. > :15:47.came in �20 billion lower than forecast, because the last Labour
:15:47. > :15:51.government had a plan and it was working. The golden economic
:15:52. > :15:55.heritage. We are going to have to leave it there. You got the last
:15:55. > :15:59.word in! OK, I'll do it!
:15:59. > :16:02.It is often said that politicians need thick skins, not least when
:16:02. > :16:06.accused of things they wish they hadn't done in their youth. 15
:16:06. > :16:10.years ago, some things, particularly admitting taking drugs,
:16:10. > :16:16.might have wrecked a promising career. Is that still true today,
:16:16. > :16:20.or does it matter less these days? Dear, oh dear, oh dear. The things
:16:20. > :16:27.people get up to. And how gleefully it is reported, and how we shake
:16:27. > :16:29.our heads. Or do we? You see, with these now infamous allegations
:16:29. > :16:33.about Chancellor George Osborne, the dominatrix call girl and
:16:33. > :16:38.cocaine, allegations he has always strongly denied, we haven't
:16:38. > :16:42.actually had legions of calls for his resignation, or to hang his
:16:42. > :16:47.head in shame. In fact, all we have had his some rather bad political
:16:47. > :16:57.teasing. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has lashed himself to the
:16:57. > :16:59.
:16:59. > :17:02.mast. Non for the first time, perhaps.
:17:02. > :17:06.heard that George Osborne is keen to get on the show as well. He
:17:07. > :17:11.wants to do a line dance. When you have stitched up your sides, ask
:17:11. > :17:16.yourself this. Have we, as an electorate, accepted the President
:17:16. > :17:20.of Jacqui Smith in 2007, the first serving Home Secretary to admit she
:17:20. > :17:24.smoked cannabis as a student. 40 years earlier, the position David
:17:24. > :17:28.Cameron took when asked about drugs. I didn't spend the early years of
:17:28. > :17:32.my life thinking, I better not do anything because one day I might be
:17:32. > :17:35.a politician, because I didn't know I might be a politician. I haven't
:17:35. > :17:39.answered the question because I think it is all in the past and I
:17:39. > :17:42.don't think you have to answer it. Louise Mensch dealt with
:17:42. > :17:47.allegations she took drugs with a humorously frank response.
:17:47. > :17:50.Basically admitting it. It is the cover-up that will kill a
:17:51. > :17:55.politician, not the crime. The public want to see be honest, it is
:17:55. > :18:00.better to be honest and cover it up and admit it three years later. It
:18:00. > :18:04.was a long time ago, I said it was the idiotic behaviour of youth, but
:18:04. > :18:08.there are awful lot of people, politicians, broadcasters, probably
:18:08. > :18:10.judges, who have had the same peccadilloes in their youth and
:18:10. > :18:19.have grown out of it, and I genuinely believe the public does
:18:19. > :18:24.Top I don't think it is less on morality. In fact it is rather more
:18:24. > :18:28.on variety. People want to know where a key -- on morality. People
:18:28. > :18:31.want to know why politician stands on global warming, capital
:18:31. > :18:36.punishment, but they are not so bothered about those ordinary
:18:36. > :18:41.private life things. If the defence of youth is one we now accept,
:18:41. > :18:45.where is the cut-off? I can't say where youth ends, but it is like
:18:45. > :18:49.the famous definition of pornography by the Supreme Court
:18:49. > :18:54.justice, I know it when I see it. At some point, you are regarded you
:18:54. > :18:57.should have done your growing up, I can't say when that is. The key
:18:57. > :19:01.cut-off point is when you enter public life and stand for office,
:19:01. > :19:05.and your legislating on things like drugs legislation. You can do it in
:19:05. > :19:09.your youth but not when you are a politician. Amidst this story, you
:19:09. > :19:12.might have expected me to make some bad puns along the lines of
:19:12. > :19:18.government whips all things not to be sniffed at. But I am not going
:19:18. > :19:22.to do that. I draw the line somewhere.
:19:22. > :19:25.Is Louise Mensch right? Does the public not care about indiscretions
:19:25. > :19:29.and bad behaviour before we get into politics? I don't think they
:19:29. > :19:36.care as much as they did and if they do, I don't think they should.
:19:36. > :19:46.I thought this might come up, I did a bit of doodling. -- Google in.
:19:46. > :19:52.Political Lord Roseberry used to take cocaine, when it was legal,
:19:52. > :19:55.before speaking in the House of Commons. Kennedy, of course, was on
:19:55. > :20:01.such a massive cocktail of drugs that during the Cuban missile
:20:01. > :20:03.crisis, he rattled whenever he got up. What is a point of morality?
:20:03. > :20:07.we rule people out of high office on the grounds of a slightly
:20:07. > :20:11.chequered past, we would be restricting the pool of politicians
:20:11. > :20:16.to a very narrow group, and some of the best people are people who have
:20:16. > :20:19.dallied with trucks in the past. Not wanting to be a cynic, but --
:20:19. > :20:22.drugs in the past. Going back to this idea of being tough on drug-
:20:22. > :20:27.taking, youngsters who have committed crimes, it might strike
:20:27. > :20:31.people as a bit strange, David Cameron, Louise Mensch, saying this
:20:31. > :20:36.was my misspent youth, you can't chastise me now. When we are
:20:36. > :20:39.resting people for doing that same thing -- arresting people. It is
:20:39. > :20:42.hypocritical and that is why I'm in favour of decriminalising or less
:20:43. > :20:48.all drugs. You don't think it ruins the political message in that
:20:48. > :20:53.sense? I don't think so. I don't think George Osborne is identified
:20:53. > :20:57.with a particularly draconian, say no to drugs policy. I don't think
:20:57. > :21:00.it is particularly relevant. Once in politics? Then I think you are
:21:00. > :21:03.under obligation to give it up and leave it behind you. I hope they
:21:03. > :21:07.are listening. And live a chaste and perfect life,
:21:07. > :21:10.like us. Tomorrow, the High Court will
:21:10. > :21:14.decide whether or not to allow the bailiffs back into Dale Farm in
:21:14. > :21:21.Basildon. The site is owned and occupied by a community of
:21:21. > :21:24.travellers. They bought it from a car scrapyard dealer in 1996. But
:21:24. > :21:28.the local council says that part of the site, which is in the green
:21:28. > :21:34.belt, has been developed without the necessary planning permissions.
:21:34. > :21:37.This has all been going on for more than a decade. On Monday, the court,
:21:37. > :21:41.at the last minute, granted the residence and order which prevented
:21:41. > :21:46.their lives from beginning to clear the site. A whole load of other
:21:46. > :21:51.protesters who joined in, they claim to be there in solidarity.
:21:51. > :21:56.There is always the danger it could turn nasty. With me, the leader of
:21:56. > :22:01.Basildon Council, Tony Ball, and Yvonne MacNamara, who speaks for
:22:01. > :22:05.the Irish Travellers Movement in Britain. Welcome. If you look at
:22:05. > :22:11.this from the outside, part of the site got planning permission, has
:22:11. > :22:16.been developed, and isn't going to be touched. The other part didn't,
:22:16. > :22:21.and you have to get out. What is wrong with that? There is a lot
:22:21. > :22:30.wrong with it. Firstly, morally, it legally, it economically, this is
:22:30. > :22:34.very wrong. Two weeks ago, I sat in a caravan, trying to explain to an
:22:34. > :22:40.11-year-old, Eileen O'Brien, who has written the letter to David
:22:40. > :22:43.Cameron, why she can no longer live in Dale Farm in a caravan... Isn't
:22:43. > :22:49.that the fault of her parents for being in an area which doesn't have
:22:50. > :22:58.planning permission? No. I delete what is happening here, is there is
:22:58. > :23:05.a national shortage of travellers' Every local authority in this
:23:05. > :23:09.country has a statutory requirement to identify need. When they
:23:09. > :23:14.identified the needs of the local Gypsy Traveller community, which
:23:14. > :23:18.Basildon have done, they tend to leave that report sitting on the
:23:18. > :23:23.shelf gathering dust, they don't implement it. Basildon Council
:23:23. > :23:27.themselves have identified there is a need for 62, that is minimum...
:23:27. > :23:30.There is a need for a lot of things, it doesn't justify breaking the law.
:23:30. > :23:36.A lot of people don't have homes in this country and meet them, but
:23:36. > :23:40.they don't break the law. Nobody is advocating that people should break
:23:40. > :23:47.the law. But when people are absolutely desperate, local
:23:47. > :23:51.authorities are not providing the homes. Let me... Let me bring in a
:23:51. > :23:55.local authority here. This has been going on for 10 years. You are now
:23:55. > :24:00.going to have to move families who have been there for a long while.
:24:00. > :24:04.Given the length of it, and given that part of the site is legal and
:24:04. > :24:11.has planning permission, why don't you draw a line under it and say,
:24:11. > :24:14.the whole side will now be covered. -- the whole site. We have learned
:24:14. > :24:18.lessons, it won't happen again, but the whole site will be subject to
:24:18. > :24:26.planning, they will be allowed to stay there and we will enforce
:24:26. > :24:29.rigorously, every other part of the law. To a certain extent you have
:24:29. > :24:35.answered your own question, where do you draw the line? I am saying
:24:35. > :24:38.you do it here. Why? The site was developed illegally in 2001. We all
:24:38. > :24:42.know we need to get planning permission before we develop. That
:24:42. > :24:46.cannot be seen to be rewarded, and it is a question of equality for
:24:46. > :24:49.everybody. What will stop someone making a similar case, if they
:24:49. > :24:53.wanted their grandmother to move in with them, and building a home in
:24:53. > :24:59.their garden? There has to be consistency. I agree there is a
:24:59. > :25:06.national shortage, but that can't be a reason for them taking the law
:25:06. > :25:14.into your own hands. Why don't you provide the sites for the people?
:25:14. > :25:18.Basildon is the largest provider in his Essex. I want to ask you this.
:25:18. > :25:24.What I think a lot of people don't understand. If this is a travelling
:25:24. > :25:29.community, why are they fighting so hard to stay put? This shows a huge
:25:29. > :25:34.gap in information. The ethnic identity is the tablet community,
:25:34. > :25:41.yes. Under the -- traveller community. Under the race Relations
:25:41. > :25:46.Act they are protected. I am committed to your question. Why do
:25:46. > :25:50.they want accommodation? I am coming to it. Allow me to answer
:25:50. > :25:54.the question. They have a right to allow for self-determination but we
:25:54. > :25:59.have conflicting pieces of legislation, that if the travellers
:25:59. > :26:02.travel the highways and byways of this country, there are no longer a
:26:02. > :26:07.transient sites provided. Local authorities are not providing the
:26:07. > :26:16.transient sites for them. Are they no longer travellers? Are they
:26:16. > :26:19.going to become permanent They are travellers. They are
:26:19. > :26:22.continuously being harassed and moved on. There is no place else
:26:22. > :26:27.for them to go. I am missing something, if they want a permanent
:26:27. > :26:32.place to go, it would seem they are no longer travellers question of
:26:32. > :26:35.you are a Scottish man? OK. Because you have come to live here in
:26:35. > :26:40.London, it doesn't automatically mean you are now an Englishman. You
:26:40. > :26:47.are still a Scottish month. Traveller is the ethnic identity of
:26:47. > :26:52.Are you still determined, despite the dangers of violence and the
:26:52. > :26:55.fact that families and old people will be moved, to get them out. I
:26:55. > :26:59.come back to my original point. Would it not be better to say, we
:26:59. > :27:03.have all learnt lessons from this prolonged case, we're not going to
:27:03. > :27:07.have a fight over it, we are going to draw the line here and move on?
:27:07. > :27:12.Many things that are forgotten are the actual reasons. Is this an
:27:12. > :27:20.appropriate place to have 52 pots, plus over 30... You gave them half
:27:21. > :27:25.of it, and it was a car dealership. -- 52 plots. A scrapyard. A very
:27:25. > :27:29.small part of it had a licence to be a scrap dealership.
:27:29. > :27:33.significant part. That was illegally and large and we enforced
:27:33. > :27:38.against that. I understand that the travellers might have bought... But
:27:38. > :27:43.with rights becomes as -- come responsibilities. A brief talk from
:27:43. > :27:46.youth, Toby Young. Presumably you would like to have lots of
:27:46. > :27:50.transient sides that you can travel to and from two, rather than one
:27:50. > :27:55.permanent site, and your argument is we need this, because we're not
:27:55. > :28:00.allowed to go anywhere else. Absolutely not allowed. If there is
:28:00. > :28:04.If there is a national shortage, people need somewhere to live
:28:04. > :28:07.during the winter as well. The children need to go to school.
:28:07. > :28:11.afraid we have run out of time but I thank you both for being with us.
:28:11. > :28:16.Just time to give you the answer to yesterday's guess the year
:28:16. > :28:20.competition. It was 1982. You recognised the Falklands War, Tony
:28:20. > :28:26.Blair fighting and losing the Beckinsale by-election. You get to
:28:26. > :28:33.pick the winner. Just read out the name. Bill Horrocks from Aberdeen.
:28:33. > :28:38.Well done. We will send the mug to you. That is it for today. That's
:28:38. > :28:41.all for today. Thanks to all our guests, especially to the Toad-
:28:41. > :28:45.meister - as he's called on Twitter - Toby Young. I am back tonight for
:28:45. > :28:47.the first This Week in ages, where I will be joined by Michael
:28:47. > :28:49.Portillo, Jacqui Smith and Charles Kennedy. Leading fiddle-meister
:28:49. > :28:52.Nigel Kennedy will speaking up for travellers and American comedian
:28:52. > :28:55.Reginald D Hunter will be casting an eye over national stereotypes.