:00:27. > :00:32.Afternoon, folks. Welcome to the Daily Politics, which is now going
:00:33. > :00:35.to be presented by me on a Friday. So please don't switch off.
:00:36. > :00:40.Celebrations on the streets of Tripoli as a tyrant is slain but
:00:40. > :00:43.what does the future hold in a post-Gaddafi Libya? It is crunch
:00:43. > :00:48.time for the Eurozone but Germany and France have already postponed
:00:48. > :00:53.the crunch from Sunday's summit to another one on Wednesday? We'll be
:00:53. > :00:58.asking Shadow Chancellor Ed Balls how he would tackle the problem.
:00:58. > :01:08.They'd keep sterling, the BBC and the British Army. It's been called
:01:08. > :01:13.
:01:13. > :01:16.Independence Lite but will the And with me today are Janan Ganesh
:01:16. > :01:26.of the Economist and Vincent Moss of the Sunday Mirror. Welcome to
:01:26. > :01:33.
:01:33. > :01:38.the programme. There are new and disturbing images this morning and
:01:38. > :01:45.we have decided not to show them. It seems that he was captured alive
:01:45. > :01:50.and could have been deliberately executed. The transitional council
:01:50. > :01:54.is claiming he died in a firefight. This will matter little to the
:01:54. > :01:58.people of Libya. They are celebrating after 42 years of
:01:58. > :02:04.despotic rule. There are big questions about whether the
:02:04. > :02:07.National Transitional cancer can establish a stable government. --
:02:07. > :02:13.National Transitional Council. To Philip Hammond was asked about this
:02:13. > :02:18.this morning. There is some optimism that can be achieved. It
:02:18. > :02:22.is a relatively wealthy country. There is some oil. The Libyan
:02:22. > :02:26.people have shown restraint over the past few months. Most people
:02:26. > :02:31.who have been to Tripoli in particular have been complimentary
:02:31. > :02:36.about the way that life has returned, quite significantly, to
:02:36. > :02:40.normal in areas of the country that were liberated. There is reason for
:02:41. > :02:45.optimism. We will be looking to provide any assistance we can to
:02:45. > :02:53.the NTC and in showing that transition is smooth. Are you as
:02:53. > :03:01.optimistic as the new Defence Secretary? I think it is less bleak
:03:01. > :03:07.than it was in Iraq in 2003. It will be less compulsive. It poses a
:03:07. > :03:12.huge risk. It is a political risk for David Cameron. He has gone
:03:12. > :03:21.through an extraordinary journey. In January he was worst place than
:03:21. > :03:26.any other Western leader. -- placed. He has been criticised. I think he
:03:26. > :03:31.was unfairly criticised for pursuing narrow, British, economic
:03:31. > :03:36.interest. That is a legitimate part of foreign policy. He has gone from
:03:36. > :03:40.that position in January of being seen as too dry and cynical in his
:03:40. > :03:46.foreign-policy to where he is now - being seen as one Western leader
:03:46. > :03:50.who is ahead of the curve. Potentially a year from now, he
:03:50. > :03:56.will be presiding over at a distance the more chaotic picture.
:03:56. > :04:00.At the moment I are more sanguine about Libya and Iraq and
:04:00. > :04:08.Afghanistan. -- I am more sanguine. He never quite know where things
:04:08. > :04:14.will go. He will probably say it is worth the risk. It is. This is the
:04:14. > :04:18.simplest part. It is about controlling the people and unifying
:04:18. > :04:24.them into a military that works under civilian control. Just hope
:04:24. > :04:29.that you can build the nation. is very tribal. There was a talk of
:04:29. > :04:33.a lot of Al-Qaeda based in Libya and there is a Muslim Brotherhood.
:04:34. > :04:39.It is not necessarily plain sailing, is it? That is the prospect of
:04:39. > :04:42.political risk. At the moment David Cameron will be quite happy. So
:04:42. > :04:49.will other members of the British political scene. That is not just
:04:49. > :04:55.his victory. It is a victory for William Hague. His basic appetite
:04:55. > :05:00.for the job was being questioned. Did he ever find his major?
:05:00. > :05:04.seems to have. A year ago, there were questions as to whether he
:05:04. > :05:09.would remain in the job for much longer. Does it give them an
:05:09. > :05:13.appetite to do something else? is always the risk. There is no
:05:13. > :05:17.doubt that David Cameron took the risk. It could have been disastrous
:05:18. > :05:23.for him. He has problems with the economy and with his backbenchers
:05:23. > :05:31.on Europe. I expect that Liam Fox hopes that he had been around for
:05:31. > :05:38.another seven days to have overseen S. I expect the dictator's Union is
:05:38. > :05:43.feeling a bit fragile, after seeing what happened to Saddam Hussein and
:05:43. > :05:47.Colonel Gaddafi. There were European Union flags being shown in
:05:47. > :05:52.Tripoli last night as Libyans celebrated the key role European
:05:52. > :06:01.nations played in the over broke of Colonel Gaddafi. The flag-waving in
:06:01. > :06:06.Europe has been a lot more muted. The eurozone crisis now unfurled at
:06:06. > :06:12.the summit of European leaders in Brussels on Sunday. This was meant
:06:12. > :06:17.to be the big weekend for Nicolas Sarkozy and Angela Merkel -
:06:17. > :06:20.Europe's odd couple. They have to patch up their differences over
:06:20. > :06:30.expanding the euro rescue fund and dealing with Greek debt if there is
:06:30. > :06:37.to be any chance of a plan emerging. The E F S S has got 440 billion
:06:37. > :06:41.euros capacity. The bail out cake will have to be enlarged if it is
:06:41. > :06:46.to do with the growing threat to Europe's banks and even to big
:06:46. > :06:51.economies like Italy and Spain. Nicolas Sarkozy and Angela Merkel
:06:52. > :06:56.disagree over how much it should be expanded by and in what way. The
:06:56. > :07:01.French want to turn the fund into a bank that can offer of two trillion
:07:01. > :07:07.Euros of its own loans. The Germans, who feel they have to pick up the
:07:08. > :07:13.tab, would prefer the fund to act as an insurer - with the trillion
:07:13. > :07:20.Euros of eurozone debts. Nicolas Sarkozy is resisting pressure from
:07:20. > :07:28.Angela Merkel to cut Greek debt. He feels that such a move would hit
:07:28. > :07:31.French banks hard. They have a lot of that debt and billions in bank
:07:31. > :07:36.capital -- bank recapitalisation and it would threaten their credit
:07:36. > :07:40.rating. The differences between France and Germany are still so
:07:40. > :07:46.great, after all these talks, there will have to be another summer -
:07:46. > :07:50.not on Sunday - that will go ahead but on Wednesday to try to get an
:07:51. > :07:55.agreement. Will any plan make a difference if Greece cannot deliver
:07:55. > :08:03.on its austerity programme? Ireland also had to push through spending
:08:03. > :08:07.cuts and tax rises. Things seem to be going a little better over there.
:08:07. > :08:13.Our correspondent is in Dublin. The Irish are beginning to see a little
:08:13. > :08:18.light at the end of the tunnel and it is not an oncoming train. Yes,
:08:18. > :08:23.Andrew. You are philosophical. If you want to find out about stoicism,
:08:23. > :08:33.instead of going to Athens, come to Dublin. They are what the Financial
:08:33. > :08:40.Times's Court -- called the role- model for austerity. They are
:08:40. > :08:45.getting on with it. They have seen taxes increase and pay packets
:08:45. > :08:50.reduce. In spite of all of that, with unemployment now over 14%,
:08:50. > :08:53.they are not riots in the streets. There is a small protest near the
:08:53. > :08:58.Central Bank but nothing on the scale we are seeing certainly
:08:58. > :09:02.increase or other cities across Europe. They are getting on with it
:09:02. > :09:07.because the economy is growing, because of exports. They hope to
:09:07. > :09:12.return to the markets and borrow like other company -- countries
:09:12. > :09:18.within a year or so. Is there a feeling among voters that there is
:09:19. > :09:22.a sense that maybe they could be through the worst? A long way to go.
:09:22. > :09:27.Maybe the worst is over and there is some growth coming into the
:09:27. > :09:31.economy. Yes, certainly there has been growth in terms of exports.
:09:31. > :09:35.They are concerned about the world economy affecting that. There has
:09:36. > :09:41.been growth in the domestic economy but it has been squeezed. Whether
:09:41. > :09:46.people think things will get better or not, I'm sure. There is a Budget
:09:46. > :09:52.coming in December. The Government is debating whether they cut
:09:52. > :09:57.something like 3.6or 4.4 bn euro out of public spending. Yesterday
:09:57. > :10:03.they had their homework marked by the troika, the EU and the IMF.
:10:03. > :10:06.They said Ireland was doing very well. The nuances of what they were
:10:06. > :10:11.saying was that they were suggesting that Ireland could ease
:10:11. > :10:15.up a bit. They are concerned they could engender the revolution on
:10:15. > :10:20.the streets we have seen in other parts of the world. We will have to
:10:20. > :10:25.come over and see. Thank you for being with us today. Instead of
:10:25. > :10:29.going to Dublin will join from Sheffield by Ed Balls. Welcome to
:10:29. > :10:33.the Daily Politics. If you were heading for the Brussels summit
:10:33. > :10:40.this weekend, what would you be advising our European partners to
:10:40. > :10:45.do? I think there are three things you need. You need a plan, critical
:10:45. > :10:51.agreement for the plant and it has to work. None of those things are
:10:51. > :10:55.in place. There is not a plan, the politics is very divided and no
:10:55. > :11:00.decisions can be made. I fear the danger is the plan will not be the
:11:00. > :11:06.right one. You have to say to the European Central Bank, you have to
:11:06. > :11:10.do whatever it takes to show Italy and Spain will be supported by the
:11:10. > :11:15.collective in the eurozone. The quid pro quo has to be that in
:11:15. > :11:19.Italy there has to be a clear political deficit reduction plan.
:11:19. > :11:25.You will not have stability unless you say collectively we are going
:11:25. > :11:28.to stand by each other in the eurozone for now and that means a
:11:28. > :11:33.very substantial commitment to inject billions and billions of
:11:33. > :11:37.pounds of resources, if necessary. Without that the markets will doubt
:11:37. > :11:42.whether or not there is a real political commitment to hold this
:11:42. > :11:47.together. That is where the contagion, the tensions, low growth
:11:47. > :11:54.and market worries come from. There also has to be a commitment to a
:11:54. > :12:00.balanced plan. If you tried to go too quickly, it does not work. In
:12:00. > :12:03.Ireland, as we were just hearing, they have cut VAT recently
:12:03. > :12:09.temporarily. There is a debate about moving to a more balanced
:12:09. > :12:14.plan. Unemployment is high. Markets are not lending yet to Ireland.
:12:14. > :12:18.Navigating your way through is very difficult. The need to have
:12:18. > :12:23.political agreement and a plan for jobs and the economy. Without that
:12:23. > :12:27.you cannot make progress. No one is following your advice. They are
:12:27. > :12:32.cutting the deficit much more quickly than we are cutting hours.
:12:32. > :12:39.The Germans and French are also cutting their deficits. You seem to
:12:39. > :12:43.be a lone voice. No one else seems to want these policies. The deficit
:12:43. > :12:48.will be reduced more quickly. You're just hearing troika saying
:12:48. > :12:53.to the Irish, you may need to ease off and move to a more balanced
:12:53. > :12:58.plan. What you have to do is have a credible plan for the deficit. It
:12:58. > :13:02.has to be one that works. If you have flat lining growth and
:13:02. > :13:07.unemployment is rising, the market is saying it is not working and the
:13:07. > :13:13.debt will be going up rather than dam. Borrowing is under pressure.
:13:13. > :13:20.In Italy, with the level of debts they have - twice as high as ours
:13:20. > :13:25.plus high interest rates - debt gets worse. You need those plans.
:13:25. > :13:30.If you say you will do it with austerity, that will not work. The
:13:30. > :13:34.other part of the problem is you have to have collective political
:13:34. > :13:39.commitment in the eurozone. Until France and Germany can reach a deal,
:13:39. > :13:42.I have to say David Cameron - in my view - should have been in Berlin
:13:42. > :13:51.and Paris this week saying to people in the interests of Europe
:13:51. > :13:57.and Britain, get this sorted out. He has been stuck in an internal
:13:57. > :14:03.party wrangle. You are a lone voice in theirs. You are in isolation.
:14:03. > :14:06.Angela Merkel does not agree. She wants to cut the deficit at a
:14:06. > :14:13.higher rate. Even the French Socialist candidate wants to cut
:14:13. > :14:17.the deficit. Who agrees with you? When we see the chaos of the summit
:14:17. > :14:23.not reaching agreement, you are saying I should be following a pass
:14:23. > :14:31.being prescribed by Angela Merkel. I'm not saying you are wrong. You
:14:31. > :14:37.are right. It has happened before. He agrees with you? That would be
:14:37. > :14:42.quite a punt to take. The eurozone is going into what is the biggest
:14:42. > :14:47.political crisis of our lifetimes. It is incredibly dangerous.
:14:47. > :14:52.Austerity is not working. The ECB is mooted. There is no way of
:14:52. > :14:58.standing behind Italy. In Britain, we have a deficit plan and we have
:14:58. > :15:02.a political agreement to deliver it. It is the wrong plan because it is
:15:03. > :15:06.going too fast. In need to look at an employment and growth. The idea
:15:06. > :15:11.you can look at the eurozone and said Britain would be better to
:15:11. > :15:16.follow their plan, good grief! asked a much simpler question that
:15:16. > :15:20.people can follow. It seems your position is that Ed Balls is right
:15:20. > :15:26.and everyone else is wrong. Angela Merkel does not agree with you and
:15:26. > :15:31.nor does Nicolas Sarkozy. The Spanish do not agree with you. The
:15:31. > :15:37.Irish do not agree with you. The French socialists do not agree with
:15:37. > :15:43.you. I simply ask again, who does agree with you? We did not join the
:15:43. > :15:49.euro, Andrew, what a good decision that was! You have taken credit
:15:49. > :15:53.endlessly for that. It seems to me, as I say again, you may be right or
:15:53. > :15:57.you may be wrong. As you sit in Sheffield, you are an isolated
:15:57. > :16:02.figure in the European debate. Sometimes you have to have the
:16:02. > :16:07.strength to make an argument which is right. And the outside the
:16:07. > :16:11.consensus. A year ago, I said if we cut the deficit in Britain this
:16:11. > :16:15.fast it would be bad for Britain. The Conservative Party and many
:16:15. > :16:20.commentators said we would get growth, unemployment would come
:16:20. > :16:22.down and borrowing would come down. There has been a year of flat
:16:22. > :16:27.lining and markets a doubting whether Britain will get the growth
:16:27. > :16:32.we need. It looks weathered the optimists of the year ago have got
:16:32. > :16:38.it wrong. In Britain we have to change course and Europe needs to
:16:38. > :16:43.change course as well. Austerity and a lack of political direction
:16:43. > :16:50.are not working. Let's assume that Ed Balls is right and the rest of
:16:50. > :16:54.the world is wrong. Let me ask you on this. It would seem to me, and
:16:54. > :16:59.you're right about the failure of leadership in Europe. It has been
:16:59. > :17:03.kicked into touch again. It would seem that, in the longer term, the
:17:04. > :17:08.only way the have to go is to break up the eurozone and take out the
:17:08. > :17:11.weaker members so you have an optimum currency area in the north
:17:12. > :17:16.or you have, as the British government is proposing, a much
:17:16. > :17:26.stronger fiscal union with transfer payments and eurozone economic
:17:26. > :17:26.
:17:27. > :17:31.I personally think that you can make a larger monetary union work
:17:31. > :17:36.across an optimal currency area, plus if you have got the political
:17:36. > :17:39.commitments. The problem is, Italy is probably OK if it gets its
:17:39. > :17:45.deficit sorted out, but the others have got to stand by the Italians
:17:45. > :17:49.and that is not working. I am for political integration, and I am for
:17:49. > :17:53.the things which need to be done to make that happen. The problem this
:17:53. > :17:56.weekend is that the French and Germans cannot face up to that. Our
:17:56. > :17:59.government is sitting in London not doing the diplomacy we should be
:17:59. > :18:04.doing and it is going to end up with jobs and investment lost in
:18:04. > :18:08.Britain because what happens in the Eurozone matters. I understand that
:18:08. > :18:12.but if you, like the Government, are urging deeper fiscal unions for
:18:12. > :18:16.the Eurozone countries with massive transfer payments and an economic
:18:16. > :18:23.policy for the Eurozone, by definition that redefines our
:18:24. > :18:28.relationship with Europe. It would then change. We would face a 17
:18:28. > :18:31.country bloc, which would out vote us on every major issue. Wouldn't
:18:31. > :18:36.we then have to change our relationship but the logic of your
:18:36. > :18:39.policy and Mr Osborne's policy was followed through? The logic of the
:18:39. > :18:43.Monetary Union is deeper fiscal integration. Of course that means
:18:43. > :18:47.that that changes over time and Britain has to deal with that. The
:18:47. > :18:50.thing I find worrying about the Conservatives is they seem to think
:18:50. > :18:55.that the only way to sort out Europe and a relationship with
:18:55. > :18:59.Europe is essentially for Britain to walk away. That is so defeatist.
:18:59. > :19:03.That is not government policy. is the view of very many
:19:03. > :19:07.Conservative MPs who will be rebelling next week. It is pretty
:19:07. > :19:12.much what George Osborne hen sat in the House of Commons. He should be
:19:12. > :19:16.leading the arguments through Europe, not walking away. The
:19:16. > :19:21.single market, the labour market, financial services matter across
:19:21. > :19:25.the whole EU area, not just the Eurozone. Us not being in those
:19:25. > :19:31.debates is incredibly dangerous. Stay with us. Let me get some
:19:31. > :19:35.reaction from our guests. If we are urging the Europeans to do what we
:19:35. > :19:42.would not do ourselves, doesn't that changed our relationship over
:19:42. > :19:46.time with Europe? I think a 17 country core Eurozone area would
:19:46. > :19:50.effectively be the European Union. That would set the terms of
:19:50. > :19:54.economic and fiscal policy and even business regulatory policy for the
:19:54. > :19:58.European Union as a whole. You can imagine in the longer term, British
:19:58. > :20:02.membership coming into question. Its interests would diverge from
:20:02. > :20:06.the core. Ed Balls is right. The ultimate solution to the Euro
:20:06. > :20:10.crisis is some kind of fiscal harmony. That will not happen for a
:20:10. > :20:16.long time. It will not involve us. And it would be very difficult for
:20:16. > :20:19.the existing Euro countries to get there. What is your take on it?
:20:19. > :20:23.think people are very depressed by the lack of political leadership.
:20:23. > :20:26.People need unity of purpose and they're not getting that. It does
:20:26. > :20:29.not reassure the markets. The think the British could make a
:20:29. > :20:33.difference? I think people would listen if the Conservative Party
:20:33. > :20:39.were not split down the middle. We have the potential for 100 Tory MPs
:20:39. > :20:43.rebelling on Monday. And quite a few Labour MPs. It is a bad message.
:20:43. > :20:49.It echoes the lack of political leadership. It is an issue that
:20:49. > :20:53.will, on Monday. It is not a party political point, but I would like
:20:53. > :20:57.to come back to what I have said. It seems to me that if the Eurozone
:20:57. > :21:03.goes down the route of fiscal integration and economic harmony,
:21:03. > :21:08.and we are not part of that, whatever British politicians say,
:21:08. > :21:13.that will enforce a redefinition of our relationship with the EU. Can I
:21:13. > :21:17.get a final reaction to that? is right. It is a challenge for our
:21:17. > :21:23.generation but I have to say, millions of jobs and investment in
:21:23. > :21:28.our country depends upon hour access to that wider market.
:21:28. > :21:31.that is all covered by WTO rules. You also know that the integration
:21:31. > :21:35.of financial services and the single market goes way beyond the
:21:35. > :21:40.WTO. We are negotiating that at the moment and Britain is not punching
:21:40. > :21:44.its weight. Margaret Thatcher, Gordon Brown, John Major, all of
:21:44. > :21:48.them would have been demanding to be at the summit, getting it sorted
:21:48. > :21:52.out. David Cameron has walked away. That is not in our national
:21:52. > :22:02.interests. We have to shape the debate so we keep investments in
:22:02. > :22:02.
:22:02. > :22:07.Britain. Ed Balls, thank you very much... SNP politicians at their
:22:07. > :22:10.conference in Inverness this weekend are, as usual, considering
:22:10. > :22:13.the wisdom of being part of the UK. They have a spring in their step
:22:14. > :22:18.now. Their manifesto promised a referendum but now there is top of
:22:18. > :22:25.another action, independence light -- to Independence Lite, or
:22:25. > :22:29.devolution max, it depends what direction you are coming at it from.
:22:29. > :22:39.Still no word on when a debate -- a referendum might be held. John
:22:39. > :22:43.Sweeney joins me. Before I get on to Independence Lite, can ask you,
:22:43. > :22:48.your administration has been boasting about how you plan B is
:22:48. > :22:53.doing better than Mr Osborne's first plan. The Scottish economy,
:22:53. > :22:56.however, is flat lining as bad as the British economy. The Scottish
:22:56. > :23:02.economy delivered as much growth in the second quarter as the UK
:23:02. > :23:06.economy. The growth is modest. The decisive difference is the fact
:23:06. > :23:12.that unemployment in Scotland is lower than the rest of the UK and
:23:12. > :23:18.employment levels are higher. 0.2%, almost nothing. State
:23:18. > :23:21.spending is bigger in Scotland. Before the people that are affected
:23:21. > :23:27.by being in employment and not being in employment, it matters a
:23:27. > :23:31.great deal. It is a consequence of the way we have used our investment,
:23:31. > :23:35.particularly capital investment, to support the future of Scotland.
:23:35. > :23:41.What concerns me about the UK Government's approach is that they
:23:41. > :23:44.have reduced capital expenditure in Scotland by 36%. That is a direct
:23:44. > :23:48.threat to economic recovery. That is why I have boosted capital
:23:48. > :23:54.spending programmes with the flexibility and already have access
:23:54. > :23:58.to, to him -- to support employment and growth. If everything is so
:23:58. > :24:04.great, why is life expectancy widening between Scotland and
:24:04. > :24:07.England? That is in certain parts of Scotland. It is an issue in
:24:07. > :24:12.certain parts, and it is about long-term health issues connected
:24:12. > :24:17.with alcohol and tobacco and poor standards of living. The Scottish
:24:17. > :24:21.Government is taking measures, such as minimum pricing of argol, to
:24:21. > :24:26.interrupt the fact that it is deemed acceptable for us to flood
:24:26. > :24:30.the market with very cheap alcohol, which has damaging consequences for
:24:30. > :24:33.individuals, and that is why we are trying to tackle that and encourage
:24:34. > :24:37.people to lead a healthier lifestyle and take more modest
:24:37. > :24:41.approaches towards alcohol and tobacco consumption. There is a
:24:41. > :24:46.public health agenda we need to put forward, an integral part of our
:24:46. > :24:52.economic approach. Good luck with that. B&Q of independence, I know
:24:52. > :25:02.that has galvanised the conference. -- the issue of independence. Why
:25:02. > :25:03.
:25:03. > :25:10.not just have your referendum now? Are you what we would call just a
:25:10. > :25:15.bit feartie? Which I would translate as a chap who was a bit
:25:15. > :25:20.frightened. I did not need any translation, but I'm glad you gave
:25:20. > :25:23.that translation. What we set in May is that we would have a
:25:23. > :25:27.referendum in the latter stages of the parliament. We sometimes get
:25:27. > :25:30.this from people like yourself, why did you not stick to that things
:25:30. > :25:34.that you said, why do you not all right you commitments? That is
:25:34. > :25:38.precisely what we will do. Give us a date for the referendum. When
:25:38. > :25:45.will it be? Later in the parliament. When? Later in the parliament.
:25:45. > :25:50.When? It will be later in the parliament. When? We will specify
:25:50. > :25:54.the date. A will you do it on the anniversary of Blackburn? That
:25:54. > :26:00.would be a really great decision for a forward-looking country, to
:26:00. > :26:05.have an independence debate on the anniversary of a medieval battle.
:26:05. > :26:11.If that is your interesting suggestion, we will consider it.
:26:11. > :26:14.And you have not. Do you think I came up the Clyde on a banana boat?
:26:14. > :26:18.We will have our referendum in the latter part of the parliament,
:26:18. > :26:22.exactly when we said it would be. The one technical point you did not
:26:22. > :26:26.mention is that our manifesto was endorsed by about 45% of the
:26:26. > :26:30.electorate in Scotland. It gave us a majority in parliament for the
:26:30. > :26:36.first time. That is a mandate that I think people in the UK Government
:26:36. > :26:42.should begin to respect. But you will not give us the debate. Is
:26:42. > :26:50.this Independence Lite, or devolution max? There would be no
:26:50. > :26:53.Scottish army under this, correct? I think the concept of another
:26:53. > :26:58.option short of independence, hear me out, that has got to be fully
:26:58. > :27:02.defined by those who would argue for that proposition. The Scottish
:27:02. > :27:05.Government, in our proposals, set out how a model of this could look.
:27:05. > :27:10.You're right, defence would be an issue reserved to the United
:27:10. > :27:13.Kingdom under that had a model, but it is for those who advocate the
:27:13. > :27:18.concept of strengthened powers for Scotland within the United Kingdom,
:27:18. > :27:20.short of independence, to define that proposition. The Scottish
:27:20. > :27:24.Government will engage constructively with an increasing
:27:24. > :27:29.number of people who argue for that approach. In five seconds, you are
:27:29. > :27:34.still going for the Full Monty? going for the Full Monty. Separate
:27:34. > :27:37.army, seat in the United Nations, the rest of it? I want Scotland to
:27:37. > :27:42.be in a position to be a progressive country that is moving
:27:42. > :27:47.forward, generating wealth and can take its own decisions. For me,
:27:47. > :27:52.that means independence. Scottish independence now
:27:52. > :27:55.unstoppable? I don't think it is likely. What you will see in the
:27:56. > :27:59.next few years is a deliberate attempt by the SNP to drive a wedge
:27:59. > :28:03.between Edinburgh and London by highlighting issues such as NHS
:28:03. > :28:08.reform and slow-growth. We have run out of time but thank you for being
:28:08. > :28:11.with us. That is off raw this week. We will be back on Monday for more