:00:28. > :00:32.Good afternoon and welcome to the Daily Politics. It is Monday, yes,
:00:32. > :00:36.the start of a difficult week for David Cameron. This afternoon he is
:00:36. > :00:40.facing one of the biggest rebellions by his backbenchers,
:00:40. > :00:43.some of whom want a referendum on the UK's relationship with the
:00:43. > :00:47.European Union. He would like to whip them into shape but it could
:00:47. > :00:52.prove a tall order. On Wednesday he is off to Brussels
:00:52. > :00:56.for another crisis meeting. Over the weekend President Sarkozy told
:00:56. > :01:01.David Cameron that he was sick of Britain criticising the eurozone
:01:01. > :01:07.countries and telling them what to Is private always best? We will
:01:07. > :01:11.look up the pros and cons of councils outsourcing their services.
:01:11. > :01:16.All of that in the next half an hour. With us for the whole
:01:16. > :01:20.programme is the director general of the CBI, John Cridland. Welcome
:01:20. > :01:24.to the programme. Without further ado, let's talk about the crisis
:01:24. > :01:28.facing the eurozone. It has been rumbling on for months and despite
:01:29. > :01:32.demand for urgent action, European leaders have only gradually edged
:01:33. > :01:35.towards a solution. The summit revealed there were still
:01:35. > :01:39.disagreements between France and Germany and friction between
:01:40. > :01:43.Nicolas Sarkozy and David Cameron. Nevertheless we are promised that
:01:43. > :01:48.the deal will be struck up the next summit on Wednesday. What might the
:01:48. > :01:54.final package look like? First, Greece's massive debt will be
:01:54. > :01:56.written down, possibly by as much as 60%. Without that, the fear is a
:01:57. > :02:02.disorderly default with Greece leaving the eurozone. That would
:02:02. > :02:11.mean heavy losses for Europe's Bank's survey will it need more
:02:11. > :02:18.capital. 8 billion euros was suggested at the weekend. -- 108
:02:18. > :02:22.billion euros. At about mechanism may have to be expanded to two
:02:22. > :02:27.trillion euros. Exactly how that will work will be the subject of
:02:27. > :02:36.debate between Angela Merkel and Nicolas Sarkozy. They will also
:02:36. > :02:39.discuss whether a European treaties should be redrawn to give them more
:02:39. > :02:44.control over the budgets of different countries. Is this the
:02:44. > :02:49.final moment? I do not know if it is the final moment but we are
:02:49. > :02:52.certainly at the 11th hour. This is where business and politics meet.
:02:52. > :02:55.Business confidence is slipping, the world growth rate is slowing,
:02:55. > :02:59.people are worried about jobs and living standards and the biggest
:02:59. > :03:04.single reason is what is going on in Brussels. Interestingly, the
:03:04. > :03:08.markets have been pretty mild today, bearing in mind there is so much
:03:08. > :03:12.uncertainty. Does that surprise you? I think the markets have a
:03:12. > :03:16.pregnant pause. They are waiting to see if Wednesday will be a
:03:16. > :03:20.resolution. If we do not get good news on Wednesday, then the markets
:03:20. > :03:24.will respond badly. At the moment, they are holding fast. But you
:03:24. > :03:28.think that if on Wednesday there is no deal on those three things,
:03:28. > :03:32.recapitalisation, shoring up the sovereign debt in those far
:03:32. > :03:36.honourable countries, and the Greek default, what do you think will
:03:36. > :03:39.happen to the markets? How bad will it be? There will be some
:03:39. > :03:44.announcements on Wednesday and then we will have to read the fine print
:03:44. > :03:47.to see how far they have got. We need each of those three challenges
:03:48. > :03:52.to be essentially resolved as quickly as possible. Otherwise how
:03:52. > :03:56.bad will it be? I think the markets have already costed in a lot of the
:03:56. > :04:00.bad news. Look at what has happened since August. At the end of the day
:04:00. > :04:03.I am more bothered about what businesses will do, not markets. At
:04:03. > :04:08.the moment businesses are not investing because they have not got
:04:09. > :04:12.confidence. Also on businesses, lots of euro-sceptics in Britain so
:04:12. > :04:17.that one of the biggest problems they have with the eurozone is the
:04:17. > :04:21.amount of red tape and regulation. Is there that much red tape and
:04:21. > :04:25.regulation on British business? Is it impeding growth? Yes, red tape
:04:25. > :04:30.from Europe is impeding growth. We could employ more people if we did
:04:30. > :04:32.not have European regulations on employment. There are lots of
:04:32. > :04:36.regulations proposed by the European Commission that would
:04:36. > :04:39.damage the City of London and our professional and financial services.
:04:39. > :04:43.British business wants access to the single market but it does not
:04:43. > :04:47.want the rigmarole that goes with it. We will talk later about the
:04:47. > :04:50.spat between David Cameron and Nicolas Sarkozy at the weekend.
:04:51. > :04:56.Before we get to that, David Cameron has been talking about the
:04:56. > :05:00.eurozone crisis and the vote in the House of Commons today.
:05:00. > :05:03.While the UK is not in the eurozone and we have no intention of joining
:05:03. > :05:07.the euro, it is in Britain's interest to have a strong and
:05:07. > :05:12.healthy eurozone. Nothing would do more to help our economic recovery
:05:12. > :05:17.right now than a resolution of the eurozone crisis. I don't think this
:05:17. > :05:21.is the right time to legislate for an in out referendum. It is the
:05:21. > :05:26.right time to sort out your its problems, the eurozone problems,
:05:26. > :05:30.defender national interest and looked to the possibility of
:05:30. > :05:35.repatriating powers back to Britain. The idea of limited treaty change
:05:35. > :05:40.in the future might give us that opportunity. I am joined brow by
:05:40. > :05:45.Sir Michael Rifkind, the former Foreign Secretary. -- I am joined
:05:45. > :05:51.now. He does have a point. Britain should shut up shouting from the
:05:51. > :05:55.sidelines on the euro. No, I do not agree. We will all be affected by
:05:55. > :06:01.the collapse of the eurozone and dramas of that time, so we can
:06:01. > :06:06.express our opinions. We cannot try and veto what eurozone members want
:06:06. > :06:10.to do to sort out their own mess. think it is about endlessly
:06:10. > :06:15.criticising. It is not just having their say. The message was that all
:06:15. > :06:19.of the rhetoric was not helpful if you are saying that the euro was
:06:19. > :06:24.useless. You are in buying it is all rhetoric but I think it was a
:06:24. > :06:28.proper debate and discussion. -- you are implying. If we cannot
:06:28. > :06:32.express our views open, honestly and courtesy, that would be a
:06:32. > :06:38.misfortune for Europe. So you think Nicolas Sarkozy should shut up
:06:38. > :06:43.instead? I would not even say it in French! David Cameron is close to
:06:43. > :06:47.fiscal integration of the eurozone, but then we have the rowers played
:06:47. > :06:51.out again, that Britain is on the outside, not at the negotiating
:06:51. > :06:54.table. I think we are in a better position than the alternative would
:06:54. > :06:58.have been. The crucial thing is that the euro will be here to say
:06:58. > :07:01.unless it collapses and if it collapses, it will be bad news for
:07:01. > :07:06.the United Kingdom because that total instability will jeopardise
:07:06. > :07:10.the part of the world that takes 40% of our trade. The question is
:07:10. > :07:13.how you reconcile that with our own very firm position that we will not
:07:13. > :07:18.be part of the eurozone, but we have no objection to those that
:07:18. > :07:22.wish to be involved. You are worried that 17 countries will make
:07:22. > :07:26.decisions and we will be outside? think this is all about the future
:07:26. > :07:29.of the European Union. It is not in or out, it is what kind of European
:07:30. > :07:36.Union and whether we can develop a European Union of diversity, which
:07:36. > :07:38.does not expect everybody to be uniform. At the moment, only some
:07:38. > :07:43.of the States are in the eurozone and that is not an interim
:07:43. > :07:47.arrangement. The package is expected to require the rewriting
:07:47. > :07:51.of existing treaties. Or would you expect there to be a referendum in
:07:51. > :07:54.Britain? I will answer your question but I have to precede it
:07:54. > :07:58.by saying that if there is going to be a negotiation about in the
:07:58. > :08:01.treaty to deal with eurozone problems, that is the perfect
:08:01. > :08:05.opportunity for Britain to raise other treaty amendments that might
:08:05. > :08:09.be appropriate. We have always said that if there is any treaty change
:08:09. > :08:12.which limits British sovereignty further, that would have to be
:08:12. > :08:15.subject to a referendum. Even if there is not a transfer of power in
:08:15. > :08:23.that sense but there is some sort of tree detained that has to be
:08:23. > :08:33.ratified by all 27 countries in order to limit countries borrowing
:08:33. > :08:33.
:08:33. > :08:37.in the future? -- some sort of treaty. Off I would suggest a
:08:37. > :08:41.referendum if there is some erosion of sovereignty. Otherwise it
:08:41. > :08:45.becomes a matter of judgement as to whether it should be subject to a
:08:45. > :08:49.referendum. That would be the sticking point. Don't ask anyone to
:08:49. > :08:53.express a view until we know what we are talking about. Fine, but
:08:53. > :08:58.this could be quite close. David Cameron is trying to claw back
:08:58. > :09:02.powers and he wants to do it now. It could happen quickly.
:09:02. > :09:06.crucial business in House of Commons today, is that if you are
:09:06. > :09:14.going to have a referendum, which may be a pro ship, it should be at
:09:14. > :09:21.the end of the negotiating process not in advance, -- which may be
:09:22. > :09:26.appropriate. So why is it the wrong time? There could be a European
:09:26. > :09:30.Union based on trade, but that is not a third option. Fair enough,
:09:30. > :09:34.but why is it the wrong time and the wrong subject? This is a
:09:34. > :09:39.massive economic crisis. David Cameron thinks it is an ideal
:09:39. > :09:42.opportunity to claw back power. does not. Until the eurozone crisis
:09:42. > :09:46.is resolved, that is the fundamental crisis that Europe has
:09:46. > :09:49.to address. The question of Britain's relationship with the
:09:49. > :09:53.European Union is hugely important. That is not something you can deal
:09:53. > :10:00.with on Wednesday at the summit that he will be attending. As the
:10:00. > :10:08.Government handled this well with the back benches? I do, you know. I
:10:08. > :10:13.do think that. The issue is not who will win the vote. The issue is
:10:13. > :10:17.that it is a challenge to the Government's authority from now on.
:10:17. > :10:20.I think the Prime Minister is absolutely right to say it is a
:10:20. > :10:24.fundamental question. A referendum was not in the manifesto of a
:10:24. > :10:28.coalition agreement. We have to demonstrate that we are a
:10:28. > :10:31.Government that is able to govern. The massive vote on Thursday, with
:10:31. > :10:35.a wan Lin whip, where the Government has not even bother to
:10:35. > :10:38.explain why it is not be acceptable, that would have a severe impact on
:10:38. > :10:48.Government credibility. Do you think the Government has handled it
:10:48. > :10:52.well, bearing in mind so many MPs could rebel? But his business is --
:10:52. > :10:57.British business is concerned with the economy. We want to get on with
:10:57. > :11:00.creating jobs. The idea of a referendum on the EU would be a
:11:00. > :11:06.mild distraction. This is not a referendum right now, but a motion,
:11:06. > :11:09.a debate, for a call for referendum in the next session of Parliament.
:11:09. > :11:13.It is an attempt to get the vote in Parliament which would be used to
:11:13. > :11:16.say that Parliament has voted that there has to be a referendum on
:11:16. > :11:20.leaving the European Union. For that to be Britain's sole
:11:20. > :11:25.contribution this week to the resolution of the eurozone crisis
:11:25. > :11:29.would be a form of self-indulgence which we would not be forgiven for.
:11:29. > :11:34.Why do you think the Government has handled it well when they have
:11:34. > :11:38.wrapped it up, trying to nobble MPs? We know there have been
:11:39. > :11:44.threats that MPs will not get promotion and could achieve their
:11:44. > :11:49.seats. Does that mean handling it well? I cannot comment on threats.
:11:49. > :11:52.If the Government has a very clear policy, which it has, that they
:11:52. > :11:57.wish to repatriate certain powers and we do wish there to be
:11:57. > :12:00.renegotiation, we do not believe in a referendum, then that is what the
:12:00. > :12:04.Government believes and the Government is perfectly right and
:12:04. > :12:09.proper to seek to persuade its own members, who were elected on that
:12:09. > :12:14.manifesto. It is not a binding vote. That is not the point. It is the
:12:14. > :12:20.impact I made earlier. The erosion. I was in John Major's Government
:12:20. > :12:24.and the constant attacks, not just by euro-sceptics, we are role euro-
:12:24. > :12:27.sceptics on single European currency! -- we are all euro-
:12:27. > :12:32.sceptics. But that constantly damage the credibility of that
:12:32. > :12:37.Government, did a lot of harm and contributed to the size of Tony
:12:37. > :12:40.Blair's of majority won the election finally came. Thank you.
:12:40. > :12:46.How is David Cameron's battle of strength with his backbenchers
:12:46. > :12:49.facing at? This could be the largest ever revolt on Europe.
:12:49. > :12:54.Parliament will debate later proposals for a referendum on
:12:54. > :12:56.Europe. Let's look in more detail at what is at stake. The motion
:12:56. > :13:03.calls for a referendum in the next session of Parliament with three
:13:03. > :13:09.options put to the public. Keep the status quo, leave the EU, or reform
:13:09. > :13:13.the terms of the European Union membership. MPs have been
:13:13. > :13:17.instructed to vote against the motion. There is likely to be a
:13:17. > :13:20.significant rebellion, especially among Conservative MPs. How big
:13:20. > :13:25.will it be? If you combine a number of Conservatives that signed the
:13:25. > :13:30.motion by Friday and the number that have already defied the whips
:13:30. > :13:35.over Europe since May, 2010, then the number was 78. Some reports say
:13:35. > :13:39.that as many as 100 Conservative MPs could defy the Government in
:13:39. > :13:42.some way later today. However big the Conservative revolt, it is
:13:42. > :13:47.likely to be the largest ever rebellion by Conservative MPs when
:13:47. > :13:50.in Government over the issue of Europe. Joining me now is the
:13:50. > :13:54.Conservative backbencher Mark Pritchard, who will be voting
:13:54. > :14:00.against the Government and the Liberal Democrat peer whose party
:14:00. > :14:04.promised an outright referendum at the last election. Mark Pritchard,
:14:05. > :14:10.you probably heard Malcolm Rifkind talking then. He was saying it was
:14:10. > :14:15.the wrong motion, the wrong time and the wrong subject. There are
:14:15. > :14:20.those that say that we should have an immediate referendum. That is
:14:20. > :14:23.not the case. If it was, then I would have some sympathy with the
:14:23. > :14:28.concerns expressed by Sir Malcolm Rifkind and indeed other Government
:14:28. > :14:34.ministers. This motion is calling for a Bill to be brought before
:14:34. > :14:37.Parliament, over an 18 month period, the period is actually specified.
:14:37. > :14:41.After that, the bill would be debated in the normal way, going
:14:41. > :14:45.through both Houses of Parliament, and then subsequently there would
:14:45. > :14:49.be a referendum which would be another couple of years after that.
:14:49. > :14:53.This motion is neither determine the final contents of a build nor
:14:53. > :14:56.the final contents of any referendum question. It would
:14:56. > :15:00.instruct the Government to hold that referendum in the next session
:15:00. > :15:03.of Parliament and that is their problem. The fact is I do not think
:15:03. > :15:07.that Europe will go away as an issue. I think it is back and it
:15:07. > :15:10.will be more of an issue rather than less. I think it is right that
:15:10. > :15:14.Parliament should reflect public opinion and speak out on behalf of
:15:14. > :15:24.constituents. The Government should get ahead of the political perv,
:15:24. > :15:24.
:15:24. > :15:29.rather than being behind the political curved. Whether it is tax,
:15:29. > :15:37.bail-outs, Europe is here as an ever-present issue. It is something
:15:37. > :15:41.that we have to tackle and we need But you are trying to tell the
:15:41. > :15:44.Government what to do, and that's why they don't like it? We are not.
:15:44. > :15:48.The motion calls on the Government to introduce a Bill to provide for
:15:48. > :15:51.the hold of course a national referendum on whether the UK should
:15:52. > :15:55.A remain a member of the union, status quo, or leave all together.
:15:55. > :15:58.Now, that is telling the Government what it should do if you were to
:15:58. > :16:02.win that motion today which you are not going to? The origins of this
:16:02. > :16:05.was the Government's own initiative e-petitions over 100,000 people
:16:05. > :16:09.have signed this petition. That's high the motion has been brought
:16:09. > :16:12.before Parliament, not because of some centre right grouping within
:16:12. > :16:15.the Conservative Party and let's remember, Jo, that there are people
:16:15. > :16:20.across the political divide that have signed this motion today.
:16:20. > :16:24.that is true. Bringing in Lord Oakeshott. It's hypocritical of
:16:24. > :16:28.your party who stood on a platform with an in-out referendum, now they
:16:28. > :16:31.are saying everyone should vote against it? No, it's not
:16:31. > :16:34.hypocritical. We said we were committed to it if there was
:16:34. > :16:38.fundamental change in the relationship between the UK and the
:16:38. > :16:42.EU and there won't be. What we have is a coalition agreement that Mark
:16:42. > :16:47.may not think, but the rest of us signed up to which thinks Britain
:16:47. > :16:51.is going to be a positive participant in the ch U playing a
:16:51. > :16:55.strong and positive role. This is the last thing we should be doing
:16:55. > :16:59.at a time when the eurozone and the whole kth western world is in
:16:59. > :17:02.crisis, to start going on about what Mr Pritchard says is an in or
:17:02. > :17:06.out or shake it all about referendum. What on earth does that
:17:06. > :17:10.mean? If we want to talk about the commitment that both parties made...
:17:10. > :17:14.No, let's talk about the specific point. Why are you going on about
:17:15. > :17:19.this at a time when John Cridland and Lord Oakeshott have said it's
:17:19. > :17:23.destructive at a time when the eurozone is in crisis? Let me say
:17:23. > :17:31.that Europe's made Europe an issue again in the House of Commons, not
:17:31. > :17:36.a small group of Conservative backbenchers. The size is growing.
:17:36. > :17:41.Europe will be more rather than less of an issue. Europe need to be
:17:41. > :17:44.ahead of the political curve. This issue is not going to go away. It's
:17:44. > :17:48.not just about the individual powers that we may or may not
:17:48. > :17:51.renegotiate, it's about the independence and sovereignty.
:17:51. > :17:55.a minute, Mr Pritchard is like a stamp collector going on whatever
:17:55. > :17:59.is happening about his collection. Britain is in a desperate state.
:17:59. > :18:02.Our jobs, our economy is at risk and all he can talk about is the
:18:02. > :18:08.small print of what the Tories did in one particular election or not.
:18:08. > :18:12.We've bot to stick together. These are our main trading partners --
:18:12. > :18:15.got to stick together. Our own economy will go down the tubes. I
:18:15. > :18:18.never thought I would agree with William Hague on Europe but I am
:18:18. > :18:22.today. Events have moved on since the
:18:22. > :18:29.coalition agreement and also there are things in the coalition...
:18:29. > :18:34.that was the deal and we stuck to it. Not everything has been
:18:34. > :18:36.necessarily clear with legislation. It's quite clear. I hope that Lord
:18:36. > :18:41.Oakeshott and the Deputy Prime Minister, Nick Clegg, would accept
:18:41. > :18:44.that fiscal union, which looks like it will happen, would mane a
:18:44. > :18:48.fundamental change between in the relationship between this country
:18:48. > :18:51.and the European Union, and if that is the case, I think it's common
:18:51. > :18:55.ground between the Liberal Democrats and the Conservatives,
:18:55. > :18:59.potentially common ground to say fiscal union would mean a
:18:59. > :19:04.fundamental change and it would triger referendum. Why not wait
:19:04. > :19:08.until that point? We are already having hints from the Prime
:19:08. > :19:13.Minister. You and your friends tonight voting are wreckers, you
:19:13. > :19:15.are wrecking the economy and the coalition agreement. That's a bold
:19:15. > :19:21.pledge. It's about time you stuck to the deal. When you think about
:19:21. > :19:25.the rising unit cost, the rising employment costs, the lack of
:19:25. > :19:29.competitiveness in Europe, many people would argue that a lot is
:19:29. > :19:32.wrong with the European Union is having a major impact on the
:19:32. > :19:36.British economy. The obsession we have on the Conservative backbench
:19:36. > :19:42.is... Very quickly. What about the rest of the world? I didn't
:19:42. > :19:46.interrupt you. You go on and on. The tone of the debate needs to be
:19:46. > :19:50.measured and calm. The concern the backbenchers have was to grow the
:19:50. > :19:53.economy, jobs and tackle the deficit. The Government shouldn't
:19:53. > :20:01.be a One Trick Pony, we can teal with Europe and the economy.
:20:01. > :20:05.many resignation also there be? don't know. You don't know if any
:20:05. > :20:08.aids... I think PPSs need to put forward their own case and put
:20:08. > :20:14.forward their own arguments as to why or why not they won't stay in
:20:14. > :20:16.the Government. The figures are going to be probably 80-90 which is
:20:16. > :20:22.a significant number of the backbenchers that are not happy
:20:23. > :20:28.with the way this has been played. I hope the will think again in this
:20:28. > :20:34.11th hour -- I hope the Government will think again. That's the deal
:20:34. > :20:43.and you have to stick to it. Thank you. Do you care who empties your
:20:43. > :20:51.bins? A private company or the council.
:20:51. > :20:54.Does outsourcing always work? David Thompson reports.
:20:54. > :20:57.It used to be that councils ran local services, everything from
:20:57. > :21:02.emptying the bins to running the libraries of these days, however,
:21:02. > :21:07.more and more of that work is being done by private companies and even
:21:07. > :21:12.charities. It's called outsourcing, and here in stock, they had a
:21:12. > :21:18.radical vision for the future, one where everything the council did
:21:18. > :21:23.would be done by somebody else -- in Suffolk. At least that was the
:21:23. > :21:29.plan. The The original plan was for us to
:21:29. > :21:33.be a light council, an easy council that no longer did things, so that
:21:33. > :21:38.we would be outsourcing all sorts of services and going down to a
:21:38. > :21:41.very small core. We found it simply didn't work. A one-size fits all
:21:41. > :21:45.solution wouldn't work in a county the size of Suffolk and we felt
:21:45. > :21:49.that also in trying to do it so quickly, we were not taking
:21:49. > :21:54.communities along with us. Suffolk hoped to shave almost 30% from its
:21:54. > :21:58.budget by contracting services out. Like all councils, it's still got
:21:58. > :22:01.to save that kind of money. Is going private always best? There is
:22:01. > :22:05.a choice for Local Government. They don't have to contract services out,
:22:05. > :22:08.they could improve the way they deliver their own in-house
:22:08. > :22:12.provision and drive down costs and improve services that way. Despite
:22:12. > :22:17.that, outsourcing is all the rage. The Government wants to make it
:22:17. > :22:22.easier for councils to contract services out and the private sector
:22:22. > :22:25.are prtty keen to help too. Wonder why -- pretty keen. The CBI will be
:22:25. > :22:29.representing their members who do have a vested interest in more
:22:29. > :22:33.services being bought in from private companies. But that doesn't
:22:33. > :22:36.mean there can't be significant advantages, both for councils
:22:37. > :22:40.because they begin to think what they are trying to deliver, so they
:22:40. > :22:44.have to think about and specify the services they want. If they can get
:22:44. > :22:47.a good private company or good voluntary organisation to do it,
:22:47. > :22:51.they might indeed get a better service. Suffolk is a Conservative-
:22:51. > :22:55.run council but now believes its former enthusiasm for wholesale
:22:55. > :23:02.outsourcing could provide a Sal Tory lesson for all local
:23:02. > :23:06.authorities -- salutory. There are lessons to be learned. You have to
:23:06. > :23:10.be realistic. If you want to do it, take it at a pace that it will take
:23:10. > :23:14.people along with you and realise that not everything will be able to
:23:14. > :23:18.be outsourced. Councils are in a tough place, making swinging cuts
:23:18. > :23:21.but they have to keep the public happy. If nothing else, Suffolk has
:23:21. > :23:28.asked a big question, just how much faith should politicians really
:23:28. > :23:31.place on outsourcing? That was David Thompson. We are
:23:31. > :23:35.joined by Heather Wakefield from UNISON. Before I come to you, I
:23:35. > :23:38.want to come to you John Cridland first, you are a fan of councils
:23:38. > :23:42.outsourcing and getting businesses involved, but we have heard there
:23:42. > :23:47.that it's not realistic to expect councils to outsource everything
:23:47. > :23:49.even in a bid to save money. Do you agree? I do. The last thing we want
:23:50. > :23:54.is an absolute philosophy that everything has to be outsourced or
:23:54. > :23:57.nothing had to be... I thought that was your philosophy that everything
:23:57. > :24:01.that can be should be? Councils look at whether they're serving
:24:01. > :24:04.their constituents' interests well and what can be done to make that
:24:04. > :24:09.service better and they should look at the potential of outsourcing. If
:24:10. > :24:13.it's a better answer, use it. Bin collection is the example you
:24:13. > :24:17.started with. Do we mind who empties our bin, we want to know
:24:17. > :24:20.it's going to be emptied regularly and effectively. So there it's
:24:20. > :24:23.about saving money and people don't mind. Heather Wakefield, that
:24:23. > :24:27.sounds like a sensible way of approaching it There are a number
:24:27. > :24:31.of problems, I'm afraid, with this approach. First of all, there is
:24:31. > :24:35.very little evidence indeed to show that outsourcing has improved
:24:35. > :24:39.services. It has cut the cost of services but generally at the
:24:39. > :24:42.expense of quality of service and certainly at the expense of the pay,
:24:42. > :24:46.the pensions and the conditions of local government workers. Is that
:24:46. > :24:52.the same as the quality that is actually being delivered? Are you
:24:52. > :24:56.saying it has cut money? Essex is saving money, Barnet is saving
:24:56. > :25:00.money. If the quality is the same, I would argue that council tax
:25:00. > :25:04.payers would say they're happy as long as they don't pay more? Take a
:25:04. > :25:09.look at social care and you will see that the quality of care has
:25:09. > :25:13.deteriorated significantly in many places. We've had the Southern
:25:13. > :25:18.Cross example recently, private equity company making large amounts
:25:18. > :25:21.of money and the service collapsing. I put that to you, John? Where you
:25:21. > :25:24.have an example of poor practice, I wouldn't defend it and contracts
:25:24. > :25:29.can go wrong in the private sector as in council provision, but it's
:25:29. > :25:32.down to the council to specify the outcomes it's looking for and make
:25:32. > :25:36.sure the contract with outsourced providers delivers value for the
:25:36. > :25:40.local people. Do you accept now, because national Government, and
:25:40. > :25:44.Number Ten particularly, has made a great deal of this idea of
:25:44. > :25:47.outsourcing, it wants to put the public sector to one side and get
:25:47. > :25:51.as many businesses involved as possible. Do you think now they do
:25:51. > :25:56.have to row back from that philosophy, you cannot do that in a
:25:56. > :26:00.rolled out way? What I believe is that competition leads to better
:26:00. > :26:03.service. But does it? If we go oath out for a meal at a weekend we'll
:26:03. > :26:06.make a decision which restaurant will give us the best value for
:26:06. > :26:09.money and it's the same with competition in Public Services. If
:26:10. > :26:13.you test out whether there's another provider, it could be a
:26:13. > :26:16.charity or social enterprise, could be a mutual, could be a private
:26:16. > :26:21.sector business that can provide the service better, the public's
:26:21. > :26:26.likely to get a better deal than if it's a monopoly. That's the test.
:26:26. > :26:29.Why shouldn't there be competition in local councils? There are ways
:26:29. > :26:32.of managing Public Services that generate internal competition. You
:26:32. > :26:35.don't need to play the private market in order to generate
:26:35. > :26:38.competition. You are saying not at all, even if there is clear
:26:38. > :26:42.evidence that it saves money and the quality is still either the
:26:42. > :26:46.same or improved? There is absolutely no evidence to show that
:26:46. > :26:50.Public Services have improved as a result of outsourcing and indeed,
:26:50. > :26:53.at this point in time, a large number of councils are bringing
:26:53. > :26:58.services like housing management, environmental services and so on
:26:58. > :27:01.back in-house. The problem with outsourcing is that it adds up to a
:27:01. > :27:04.massive haemorrhaging of public money through procurement costs,
:27:04. > :27:09.through fraud, I'm afraid the Government's own National Audit
:27:09. > :27:13.Office has said that 1.3 billion pounds a year is lost in fraud.
:27:13. > :27:16.That is through privatisation. going to have to wrap it up there.
:27:17. > :27:21.Thank you very much. Just time before we go to talk about all
:27:21. > :27:25.things Europe. Adam Fleming is on College Green. Give us an idea of
:27:25. > :27:28.the numbers stacking up? Good afternoon. I'll give you an idea of
:27:28. > :27:33.what is happening here. We have a demonstration by supporters in
:27:33. > :27:36.favour of a referendum on the EU. It's a mixture of the campaign for
:27:36. > :27:39.a referendum. I see some UKIP banners there and some signs of
:27:39. > :27:42.people from the BNP. One of the banners says, forget democracy in
:27:42. > :27:46.Libya, what about here in the UK. That is what is happening here, the
:27:46. > :27:51.question is, what is happening over there? It's a febrile atmosphere.
:27:51. > :27:53.The number everyone is focusing on is 41, that's the biggest historic
:27:53. > :27:56.rebellion amongst the Conservative Party on Europe in the past. That
:27:56. > :28:00.happened when John Major was Prime Minister, so everyone is looking to
:28:00. > :28:03.see if David Cameron will be able to, unfortunately for him, top that
:28:03. > :28:08.number. We are going to have to wait until tonight when the vote is
:28:08. > :28:11.held to see how many rebels stick to their guns and walk through the
:28:11. > :28:15.lobby supporting the motion calling for a referendum on Britain's
:28:15. > :28:19.membership of the EU. What about the other parties? A good point.
:28:19. > :28:21.When we are looking at the voting list for who supported this
:28:21. > :28:25.referendum call, it won't just be Conservative Euro-Sceptics, this
:28:25. > :28:29.will be some members of Labour supporting it, most notably Keith
:28:29. > :28:32.Vaz, the senior Labour MP, he's pro-Europe but pro-referendum. We
:28:32. > :28:37.have heard there will be a Liberal Democrat, Steven Gilbert, who is
:28:37. > :28:43.supporting in favour of the referendum as well, and then
:28:43. > :28:46.there's the DUP in Northern Ireland. Mr Shannon in fact was instrumental
:28:46. > :28:51.in making this happen. Sounds very exciting there. That's all for
:28:51. > :28:54.today. Thanks to our guests, especial sli John cild land, for