26/10/2011

:00:27. > :00:33.Morning, folks. This is the Daily Politics. Wednesday, 26th October,

:00:33. > :00:37.2011, AD, the day that Europe dithered and delayed, while the

:00:37. > :00:41.eurozone teetered on the abyss of financial crisis possibly leading

:00:41. > :00:45.to further recession. At least that is what it looks like as the euro

:00:45. > :00:49.leaders gather for another summit in Brussels. They were supposed to

:00:49. > :00:53.agree a three-part rescue plan but much of the technical work has not

:00:53. > :01:00.been completed. The banks are digging in against a Greek haircut

:01:00. > :01:05.of debt, and Angela Merkel and Nicolas Sarkozy are still a part on

:01:05. > :01:09.fundamental matters of principle. The in Italy, Silvio Berlusconi's

:01:09. > :01:14.Government looks close to collapse. The chance of a deal looks ever

:01:14. > :01:18.further off. Is some kind of financial and economic catastrophe

:01:18. > :01:21.heading for us like a truck? David Cameron will face his own

:01:21. > :01:26.backbenchers at PMQs in half an hour, the first time since he

:01:26. > :01:30.failed to stop 50% of them voting for a referendum on our

:01:30. > :01:36.relationship with Europe. And he will be sitting alongside

:01:36. > :01:40.his deputy, Nick Clegg. He has been warning against any smash-and-grab

:01:40. > :01:47.attack to claw back powers from Brussels. What is the coalition

:01:47. > :01:51.policy on Europe, if anything? All of that coming up over the next

:01:51. > :01:56.90 minutes. A very important day for the eurozone, the European

:01:56. > :02:00.Union and the British colony. Throughout the programme we are

:02:00. > :02:03.joined by the Cabinet Office minister Francis Maude, who always

:02:03. > :02:09.likes to be reminded that under John Major he became the manner

:02:09. > :02:15.that actually put his signature on the Maastricht Treaty. -- the man.

:02:15. > :02:19.Not quite accurate. It was not his signature, it was a paw print! And

:02:20. > :02:23.Rachel Reeves, the next leader of the Labour Party. Sorry, she has

:02:23. > :02:32.been newly promoted to shadow chief secretary of the Treasury. But that

:02:32. > :02:37.is the gossip among some, which will be the kiss of death of course.

:02:37. > :02:46.How serious is it? Very serious. Nobody is under any illusion that

:02:46. > :02:53.it is serious. The eurozone leaders need to sorted out. It is not easy.

:02:53. > :02:57.When the situation is this bad, solution will not come along on a

:02:58. > :03:04.plate. People like me say what I have just said, it is down to the

:03:04. > :03:08.wire, and then suddenly we get free. Will this happen this time?

:03:08. > :03:12.certainly hope so that nobody can predict exactly what will happen.

:03:12. > :03:17.If there is a resolution, which I hope there will be, I don't think

:03:17. > :03:20.that anybody is free. A price will have to be paid for this, in terms

:03:20. > :03:28.of what is needed to recapitalise the banks, to have a proper

:03:28. > :03:32.solution, a resolution for Greece. None of this is free, but the

:03:32. > :03:40.penalty for not doing it is extremely severe. Not just for the

:03:40. > :03:44.eurozone but for those of us, well, 40% of our trade is with the

:03:44. > :03:47.eurozone and it would affect us gravely. The three-part deal was

:03:47. > :03:54.supposed to be agreed last weekend at the European summit but that did

:03:54. > :04:01.not happen. We have another summit today, two really. One for the EU

:04:01. > :04:04.and one for the eurozone. Then they have to go in front of the G20 on

:04:05. > :04:09.November 3rd. As I look at these things, and I try to look at them

:04:09. > :04:13.closely, it doesn't seem to me that timetable will happen. You say it

:04:13. > :04:17.always goes to the wire, but the backdrop for this summit is

:04:17. > :04:22.different to any other summit before. It is being driven by what

:04:22. > :04:25.is happening in the financial markets, what is happening to jobs

:04:25. > :04:29.and the economy. It is more pressing than ever that we get some

:04:30. > :04:33.answers. The problem with going to the wire and then doing as much as

:04:33. > :04:38.you need to do and then carrying on for a bit, and then going to the

:04:38. > :04:42.wire, and doing what you need to do, you know, we actually need some

:04:42. > :04:47.proper answers for these problems. The problems of Greek debt, the

:04:47. > :04:53.banks and their lack of capital, and the problems about the spill

:04:53. > :04:56.overs. Unless there is a forensic and full deal in Europe, then what

:04:56. > :05:00.we are going to see his contagion getting worse and it spreading to

:05:00. > :05:04.Italy, as everyone is saying, and Spain and Portugal and other

:05:04. > :05:11.countries. We desperately need a deal. It is not like a normal

:05:11. > :05:15.summit. They may do as little as they need to do, rather than as

:05:15. > :05:22.much. We will talk about this later in the programme as well. We have

:05:22. > :05:28.been saying that lots hangs on the summer today, I should say summits.

:05:28. > :05:33.-- the summit today. Jo has been looking at what happens when and

:05:33. > :05:37.what is on the table. The euro horror story gets another

:05:37. > :05:42.showing today. All 27 EU leaders will be at the first meeting this

:05:42. > :05:46.afternoon. David Cameron will be absent from the next and most

:05:46. > :05:49.crucial session, at the meeting of the 17 eurozone leaders tonight.

:05:49. > :05:54.There are three issues on the agenda. Cutting the Greek debt

:05:54. > :05:58.mountain, shoring up the banks to cope with losses, and boosting the

:05:58. > :06:03.rescue fund. Will they reach a deal? The strong disagreement

:06:03. > :06:09.between France and Germany over how to shore up the rescue fund, known

:06:09. > :06:14.as the EFSF. There is also disagreement over the bondholders.

:06:14. > :06:17.Germany wants to impose a 60% haircut on those holding great debt,

:06:17. > :06:22.meaning they would lose 60% of everything they have learned. The

:06:22. > :06:26.banks that hold most of that debt warn that anything above 40% could

:06:26. > :06:29.further endanger the European banking system. The markets could

:06:29. > :06:37.plunge if the leaders failed to reach a deal tonight and the crisis

:06:38. > :06:43.could exact a political price as well. Silvio Berlusconi is through

:06:43. > :06:45.-- rumoured to be stepping down. Let's go to Brussels. It has been

:06:45. > :06:52.taught about the crisis can that has been kicked down the road for

:06:52. > :06:57.months. -- talked about. Have we reached the end of the road today?

:06:57. > :07:01.I don't think so. When I was here on Sunday, there was widespread

:07:01. > :07:05.acknowledgement that they were finding it very difficult to come

:07:05. > :07:09.to a fundamental agreement. You had that press conference with Angela

:07:09. > :07:12.Merkel of Germany and President Sarkozy of France, trying to

:07:12. > :07:16.present a publicly united front. They did look closer than they have

:07:16. > :07:20.done in the past. There are differences between these two

:07:20. > :07:24.countries, the two most important countries in the eurozone, over the

:07:24. > :07:30.way forward. Angela Merkel has been addressing the German Parliament

:07:30. > :07:35.ahead of a crucial vote which she is expected to win. But his today

:07:35. > :07:40.the summit to end all summits? My instinct is that it is not. Thank

:07:40. > :07:43.you. As we were hoping for some decisiveness at the summit today,

:07:43. > :07:48.we heard that the Italian Government could be on the brink of

:07:48. > :07:52.collapse. David is in Rome. What do you say to the rumours that

:07:52. > :08:01.Berlusconi may be stepping down from the deal and that the

:08:01. > :08:06.Government is on the verge of collapse? That the Government is on

:08:06. > :08:10.the verge of collapse is a given here. Berlusconi has come under

:08:10. > :08:14.terrible criticism in recent weeks for his dithering over the economic

:08:14. > :08:19.measures that he has proposed to combat the eurozone debt crisis.

:08:19. > :08:23.The Government has been talking for three months now about an austerity

:08:23. > :08:29.budget, but implementing the austerity budget seems to be beyond

:08:29. > :08:34.his capacity. He is coming to Brussels this afternoon with a

:08:34. > :08:42.letter of intent in his pocket. More promises, in other words.

:08:42. > :08:48.Whether the EU leaders will believe home is a matter for speculation.

:08:48. > :08:53.Italy's credibility is at an all- time low, just as Berlusconi's

:08:53. > :08:58.credit rating in Italy is at an all-time low.

:08:58. > :09:03.Thank you. To discuss how the markets are likely to react to the

:09:03. > :09:07.developments today, delays, dithering, call it what you want, I

:09:07. > :09:14.am joined by Louise Cooper, a market analyst. It is a busy time

:09:14. > :09:18.for you. Let's go through a couple of things before coming onto the

:09:18. > :09:21.market reaction. At the moment they do not seem to have an agreement.

:09:21. > :09:25.They have not been able to convince the banks holding the Greek debt

:09:25. > :09:31.that they should take this haircut. They want it to be a voluntary

:09:31. > :09:35.haircut, otherwise it counts as a default. And credit default swaps

:09:35. > :09:43.and all these other things will trigger. They do not want that to

:09:43. > :09:48.happen. If you are the CEO of a bank, you have a legal duty to do

:09:48. > :09:52.the best for your shareholders. You cannot just do what Angela Merkel

:09:52. > :09:56.tells you to do and ignore that legal duty. You can be personally

:09:56. > :10:01.sued by your shareholders, depending on the jurisdiction, if

:10:01. > :10:03.you are not doing a good job for them. The idea that the banks can

:10:03. > :10:08.suddenly ignore that legal responsibility and do what the

:10:08. > :10:16.politicians want them to do is a bit ridiculous. They have to

:10:16. > :10:20.balance the two. Some of the markets may decide that you say

:10:20. > :10:25.this is voluntary, but actually Chancellor Merkel has a gun at our

:10:25. > :10:28.head, so we will take this not as voluntary but being forced, so we

:10:28. > :10:35.will trigger the insurance policies on the debt. If it looks like a

:10:35. > :10:39.duck, quacks like a duck, then it is a duck. The same with default.

:10:39. > :10:43.Greece is already effectively in default. We have not got the banks

:10:43. > :10:48.to agree to take their hair cut. At the weekend there was the partial

:10:48. > :10:52.unveiling of the plan to recapitalise the banks. When I met

:10:53. > :10:59.you on Sunday, you said writer weight that 100 billion was just

:10:59. > :11:03.not enough. That -- right away. even close. The IMF said 200

:11:03. > :11:10.billion was needed, even assuming Europe does not go into recession.

:11:10. > :11:14.At this stage, it cannot be done on the cheap and it has to impress. I

:11:14. > :11:17.know it is difficult because we live in a democracy. All of the

:11:17. > :11:21.European countries are democracies and they have legal constitutions

:11:21. > :11:26.that they have to obey. That is the problem. That is why many people

:11:26. > :11:33.that I speak to do not think there is a solution. The EFSF, I love

:11:33. > :11:35.this. The bail-out fund? I have so much trouble saying the acronym.

:11:36. > :11:39.Effectively what it is doing is taking money from the eurozone

:11:39. > :11:44.members, putting it into a pot and buying Government debt. Most of

:11:45. > :11:49.that is coming from France and Germany, about half of that. So

:11:49. > :11:53.what you have got is France putting money into a pot, guaranteeing that

:11:53. > :11:57.money, potentially losing its highly coveted triple-A rating,

:11:57. > :12:02.which means its borrowing costs go up. Why are they doing that? To

:12:03. > :12:07.bring down borrowing costs in Italy. France's borrowing costs will go up

:12:07. > :12:14.to bring Italian borrowing costs down. Has anybody explained that to

:12:14. > :12:21.the French electorate? How do they feel about that? When you listen to

:12:21. > :12:27.that, which is a widespread view in the City of London, but they do not

:12:27. > :12:31.articulated quite so well, you get the feeling that even if a deal is

:12:31. > :12:35.announced at 2 o'clock this morning, it will not take long for Louise

:12:35. > :12:41.Cooper and her colleagues to rumble it. This has been a problem so far,

:12:41. > :12:46.that Europe has done just enough to get through the crisis. Then it

:12:46. > :12:49.plods along and the next crisis comes. We need an answer that deals

:12:49. > :12:54.with the issue of contagion and spreading to other countries. On

:12:54. > :12:58.the banks, if they do not take a haircut, and do not agree to that

:12:58. > :13:03.voluntary, what is the alternative? The alternative is to default on

:13:03. > :13:09.the debt. That is no good for the banks as well. They may get a 20%

:13:09. > :13:11.haircut, and they may not get any of the money back at all. There is

:13:11. > :13:16.something in the collective interest of the banks, the

:13:16. > :13:20.different countries, whether they are the ones in crisis or the ones

:13:20. > :13:25.that need to be bailed out, to get an answer, but it is about whether

:13:25. > :13:28.that is enough. Downing Street have just issued a statement saying they

:13:28. > :13:38.do not underestimate the difficulties that are faced in

:13:38. > :13:38.

:13:38. > :13:42.Brussels today. It seems to me, Europe could try to fudge things

:13:42. > :13:46.tonight. They will come out with a statement covering all of the

:13:46. > :13:53.things that Louise Cooper has been talking about, implying process,

:13:53. > :13:59.and progress, but when you scrape it away, the banks may still be

:13:59. > :14:04.holding out against a haircut, and the recapitalisation of the banks

:14:04. > :14:08.may still be unclear. The truth is that the longer this goes on, the

:14:08. > :14:12.higher the credibility bar gets. So the more needs to be done to

:14:13. > :14:19.achieve finality. This is the kicking the can down the road thing.

:14:19. > :14:25.The road has come to an end. some stage it does. But the point

:14:25. > :14:28.is that the longer you go on, the more you have to do. To achieve the

:14:28. > :14:33.credibility with the markets, people will say, OK, that does it.

:14:33. > :14:40.It has to be chunky, it has to be serious. There is a hell of an

:14:40. > :14:44.abyss here and we are quite close to looking over their -- the edge

:14:44. > :14:49.of it. When you talk about credibility, the borrowing costs of

:14:49. > :14:58.eurozone governments are increasing rapidly. Italians had to basics %

:14:59. > :15:03.this morning, which is massive. -- had to pay 6%. The ECB have said 6%

:15:03. > :15:09.is not sustainable and too high. That brought them down to 5% when

:15:09. > :15:19.they brought the bombs, but now it is back up to 6%. -- they bought

:15:19. > :15:22.

:15:22. > :15:28.the bonds. They cannot afford to It is more than just Greece. It is

:15:28. > :15:34.Italy, potentially other countries as well. The talk of defaults, or

:15:34. > :15:38.the takes as we should call them, the Economist said you have to look

:15:38. > :15:44.at a haircut for Spain, Italy, Portugal, maybe Ireland. There is

:15:44. > :15:48.no talk of that on the table as I understand it. Is that right?

:15:48. > :15:55.That's true. You are only talking about some of yen debt. They take a

:15:55. > :15:59.writedown on sovereign debt, if Greek is going bust, what about

:15:59. > :16:03.other debt? What about all the other layers of debt as well, which

:16:03. > :16:06.I can assure you there'll need to be losses there too. The final

:16:07. > :16:13.question for you at the moment. Given all you say, and no-one's

:16:13. > :16:17.arguing with you here, and it is widely known, now it's on the Daily

:16:17. > :16:22.Politics, the whole world knows about it, why have the markets been

:16:22. > :16:28.so patient? I don't know. The calm before the storm. I'm glad you said,

:16:28. > :16:34.that because neither do I! Clearly they are cheap but I look at this 5

:16:34. > :16:39.00 point rally... Is it time to sell our eck witties before

:16:39. > :16:45.tonight? The CBI said today the manufacturing industry is back into

:16:45. > :16:53.recession. It is not great. I think we'll have you back soon. We can go

:16:53. > :17:00.to Strasbourg and speak to Wolf Klinz, a German MEP. Thanks for

:17:00. > :17:05.joining us. Angela Merkel is facing a vote in the Bundestag to have a

:17:05. > :17:09.bolster to the rescue fund. Is it big enough to stop any contagion?

:17:09. > :17:14.That's a very good question. As a matter of fact it is a vital and

:17:14. > :17:17.very important first step. Future will tell whether this 1 billion-

:17:17. > :17:25.plus rescue fund is going to be sufficient. I think the markets

:17:25. > :17:29.certainly will try to test this out. And therefore I do not want to give

:17:29. > :17:35.a prognosis. I hope it will turn out to be sufficient. Certainly it

:17:35. > :17:40.is much bigger than anything else that's been put on the table so far,

:17:40. > :17:46.so I'm rather optimistic that it will be the right recipe. Have we

:17:46. > :17:50.got time for first steps? Do we not need to have a definitive amount

:17:50. > :17:56.that will cover the cost, and has Germany been dragging its heels

:17:56. > :18:01.over this? No, I don't think. So you could rightly say that we have

:18:01. > :18:06.not used the last 12 to 18 months in an optimal way. We have lost

:18:06. > :18:09.some time in the past year. This is certainly true and I would agree

:18:09. > :18:15.with, that but I think now Germany is not dragging its feet. It is

:18:15. > :18:18.very important that the Bundestag, as it looks the clear majority of

:18:18. > :18:24.all parties is going to endorse this programme. I think that is

:18:24. > :18:28.important, because after all, a lot of money is at stake. It is the

:18:28. > :18:32.German taxpayers that will have to foot the bill to a very large

:18:32. > :18:38.extent. Therefore I think it is important that the German Bundestag

:18:38. > :18:43.is fully aware of whatlets voting for, is fully informed and defines

:18:43. > :18:50.clearly what the red lines are. Wolf Klinz, whatever happens in the

:18:50. > :18:53.next few days, in terms of sorting this crisis out, did you see closer

:18:53. > :18:57.fiscal integration between the eurozone countries as inevitable?

:18:57. > :19:02.do, as a matter of fact. I've been chairing the special committee

:19:02. > :19:05.looking into the financial and economic crisis, and we have come

:19:05. > :19:10.clearly to the conclusion and we are convinced that this is the

:19:10. > :19:14.right conclusion that if the eurozone is going to stay, and if

:19:14. > :19:17.the euro is to have a future, we do need much deeper integration of the

:19:17. > :19:22.countries that are members of the eurozone. And therefore I think

:19:22. > :19:27.what is being put on the table right now may be able to buy us

:19:27. > :19:31.some time. But I think over the longer future, we will have to

:19:31. > :19:34.deepen integration. We will have to have something that is close to a

:19:34. > :19:38.European Treasury. We'll have to have a strong, competent

:19:38. > :19:43.Commissioner that will play the role of a de facto Minister of

:19:44. > :19:48.finance of the eurozone that will represent the eurozone as a single

:19:48. > :19:53.person in international fora, so we need more than what is on the table

:19:53. > :19:58.right now. OK. And this of course does require changes of the treaty

:19:58. > :20:02.and of the institution and therefore we cannot have it

:20:02. > :20:06.overnight. Wolf Klinz, thank you. I think we've worked out that in

:20:06. > :20:11.Europe nothing comes overnight! We are coming up to Prime

:20:11. > :20:16.Minister's Questions. It is just 48 hours after David Cameron watched

:20:16. > :20:20.half his backbenchers vote against him on the referendum on Europe.

:20:20. > :20:26.The Deputy Prime Minister, Nick Clegg, has been pouring cold water

:20:26. > :20:32.on this new bout of euro concept cism. We are joined by Charles

:20:32. > :20:38.Kennedy, who had a double act last night on Newsnight with James Rees-

:20:38. > :20:43.Mogg. At least he's wearing his University of Glasgow graduate's

:20:43. > :20:48.tie.. Thank you. Before we begin, should we maybe have 20 seconds

:20:48. > :20:54.silence, a prayer of thank that the British people didn't follow your

:20:54. > :20:58.advice and join the euro? I think with the benefit of hindsight a

:20:58. > :21:05.moment's silence would be appreciate preected. That's honest

:21:06. > :21:11.and you've -- preected. That's honest and you've taken the wind

:21:11. > :21:18.from my sails. Those of us in the Conservative Party who argued we

:21:18. > :21:28.should not join the euro, we were mocked. But we survived. And we

:21:28. > :21:31.

:21:31. > :21:36.were right. I never mocked, Francis. What is coalition policy towards

:21:36. > :21:40.the repatriating of powers from Brussels? Well, the clear policy is

:21:40. > :21:44.what is set out in the coalition agreement. It doesn't talk about

:21:44. > :21:48.repatriation of powers. That is the existing position. It zpblt mention

:21:48. > :21:52.that at all? No, and the Prime Minister said in his statement in

:21:52. > :21:57.the House ahead of the debate on Monday that he wanted to look at

:21:57. > :22:01.this issue. Nick Clegg has made clear the lib deps are not

:22:01. > :22:07.following an agenda that follows repatriation. Listening to the

:22:07. > :22:12.debate it remains ill defined what individual Conservative politicians

:22:12. > :22:15.mean by repatriation, far less a checklist of what they want to

:22:16. > :22:20.repatriate. Francis Maude, it may be Conservative policy to

:22:20. > :22:26.repatriate powers, although you didn't put that in your manifesto.

:22:26. > :22:32.You've mentioned it sense, but it is not coalition policy to

:22:32. > :22:36.repatriate powers, so why did Michael Gove on the Today programme

:22:36. > :22:41.said say they had already repatriated some and think want to

:22:41. > :22:45.repatriate more this this next Parliament? It is no secret. Shock,

:22:45. > :22:49.horror, the Lib Dems and the Conservatives don't have an

:22:49. > :22:53.identical view of Europe. That's not a world-shattering piece of

:22:53. > :22:58.news. But it is important for people to understand what the

:22:58. > :23:04.Government's policy is. Since you've but theed in, Rachel

:23:04. > :23:07.Reeves, what is Labour policy? Is Labour policy that no powers should

:23:07. > :23:11.be repatriated from Brussels? Labour's policy that right now,

:23:11. > :23:15.when we've just been through the problems in the eurozone, that has

:23:15. > :23:19.got to be the number one priority. Not repatriation of powers, not a

:23:19. > :23:24.referendum but sorting out the mess in Europe at the moment. OK. I

:23:24. > :23:33.understand that's the line. That's the line... Lit me finish the

:23:33. > :23:38.question. -- let. It is your line too. There is consensus on this.

:23:38. > :23:43.One way or another this eurozone crisis will be resolved, maybe bay

:23:43. > :23:48.deal or a crisis. But it will be resolved. I'm glad you are so

:23:49. > :23:53.confident! Down the road when this is over, in 2013-14, is it Labour's

:23:53. > :23:56.view that no powers should be repatriated from Brussels?

:23:56. > :23:59.believe that Europe needs to be reformed, things like the Common

:23:59. > :24:03.Agricultural Policy, like the rules that don't allow us to support

:24:03. > :24:10.British businesses like Bombardier. Things like that need to be

:24:10. > :24:15.reformed. But if you are asking should things like maternity pay

:24:15. > :24:24.and the rights for temporary and agency workers, should we get rid

:24:24. > :24:28.of that, I don't think we should. Francis Maude, you are in

:24:28. > :24:32.Government, it looks like the Germans, with French support, will

:24:33. > :24:36.go for a fiscal union. A fiscal union will either scrolve a new

:24:36. > :24:41.treaty or a redrafting of the existing treaties. When that is

:24:41. > :24:46.done, will you go for a repatriation of powers? Look, we

:24:46. > :24:51.don't know what is envisaged here. It could be a new treaty, or a

:24:51. > :24:56.revision of existing treaties. We don't know actually what would be

:24:56. > :24:59.involved in creating a fiscal union. The German MEP talked about

:24:59. > :25:04.creating a European Treasury. What does that mean? Does it mean all

:25:04. > :25:07.the tax revenue from the eurozone countries goes through Brussels and

:25:08. > :25:11.is redistributed? That's the only way in which you could make

:25:11. > :25:17.absolutely sure that there isn't overspending and excessive deficits

:25:17. > :25:23.in member countries. That's how it works in Washington. We don't know

:25:23. > :25:31.the full details but it looks as if we are going for some kind of

:25:31. > :25:38.fiscal union, but in principle, is that your gateway into a

:25:38. > :25:41.repatriation programme? It may be. We don't know the timescale. Is it

:25:41. > :25:45.Government policy? The Government doesn't have a policy at this stage

:25:45. > :25:55.on whether we'll seek to get or whether there'll be an opportunity

:25:55. > :25:55.

:25:55. > :25:59.even to seek repatriation, so we don't even, I was going to say

:25:59. > :26:02.shock horror, Conservatives and Lib Dems don't always have the same

:26:02. > :26:08.views on Europe. I would suggest to Charles Kennedy that this has the

:26:08. > :26:12.potential to cause a deep division in the coalition. If the

:26:12. > :26:16.Conservative part of the coalition wants to use this fiscal union as

:26:17. > :26:20.an opportunity, as they said in their manifesto if there is another

:26:20. > :26:25.treaty change we'll have a referendum. They then said that

:26:25. > :26:29.will involve bringing powers home, the Lib Dems aren't going to put up

:26:29. > :26:35.with that, are they? Our position is clear. It is not moving on this

:26:35. > :26:39.one. It was true of the - it was true of a slightly overlooked

:26:39. > :26:44.statement the Europe Minister, David Lidington made, what is

:26:44. > :26:48.happening about the repatriation, he was asked. He said work is at an

:26:48. > :26:51.early stage. I think work began at half past ten on Monday night.

:26:51. > :26:56.That's my impression. In other words, the Conservative

:26:56. > :27:01.parliamentary party doesn't trust the lip on this issue. They are

:27:01. > :27:11.scrambling about. There's a myriad of positions. We have to end it,

:27:11. > :27:12.

:27:12. > :27:15.because PMQs won't wait. And Jacob Rees-Mogg is outside.

:27:15. > :27:25.Just before Prime Minister's Questions, time for this week's

:27:25. > :27:25.

:27:25. > :28:22.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 57 seconds

:28:23. > :28:27.Guess The Year quiz. Let's see if Some of my former colleagues if

:28:27. > :28:37.they are to be believed, I must be be the First Minister in history

:28:37. > :28:49.

:28:49. > :28:55.who resigned because he was in full To be in with a chance over winning

:28:55. > :29:02.a Daily Politics murks send your message to our special e-mail

:29:02. > :29:06.address - to win a Daily Politics mug.

:29:06. > :29:10.Let's look at Big Ben. It is my favourite shot of the week. It can

:29:10. > :29:15.only mean one thing. Prime Minister's Questions is on the way.

:29:15. > :29:18.The BBC's deputy political editor, James Landale, is here, and by

:29:18. > :29:23.popular demand and much to Jacob Rees-Mogg's disappoint, Charles

:29:23. > :29:28.Kennedy is sticking with us. We can't get him out! What we

:29:28. > :29:36.haven't touched on yet, James, is this is the Prime Minister's first

:29:36. > :29:41.appearance since the kick in the On Monday How will he handled that?

:29:41. > :29:45.It is an open wound into witch Labour can pour a lot of salt.

:29:45. > :29:52.There's a tendency for MPs when they've given their party leader a

:29:52. > :29:59.dufg up, in the division lobbies there's a mixture of remorse but a

:29:59. > :30:05.spurt of loyalty. I imagine there'll be a shaking of order

:30:05. > :30:11.papers. There tends to be a bounce- back after these events.

:30:11. > :30:16.Miliband, he has to go on Europe. Europe and the economy. The two big

:30:16. > :30:19.issues. They are intertwined. Even though we are not in the eurozone,

:30:19. > :30:24.everything hats happening there has ramifications for businesses and

:30:24. > :30:28.families in Britain. I expect it will be a combination of the two

:30:28. > :30:35.issues. The penny has dropped. Up until Monday of this week we were

:30:35. > :30:41.all being circulated, make sure you are at PMQs because Cameron is away

:30:41. > :30:47.at the Commonwealth conference and Clegg is doing it. Instead he will

:30:47. > :30:54.be sitting beside the Prime Minister, having to study the Prime

:30:54. > :30:59.Minister. Studied impasseivity. Maybe extolling a smash and grab

:30:59. > :31:04.raid. A study in impasseivity. role of sitting next to to the

:31:04. > :31:14.Prime Minister is difficult, because if you smile you irritate

:31:14. > :31:23.

:31:23. > :31:32.one group and if you frown you Thank you, Mr Speaker. This morning

:31:32. > :31:36.I had... At least they do not have to do it

:31:36. > :31:40.in French! This morning I had meetings with

:31:40. > :31:45.ministerial colleagues and others. This afternoon I will be travelling

:31:45. > :31:48.to Brussels for further talks about the eurozone. Yesterday it was

:31:48. > :31:53.reported that the Prime Minister compared the families of those that

:31:53. > :31:57.died at Hillsborough to a blind man in a dark room looking for a black

:31:57. > :32:00.cat that is not there. He complained he was not getting

:32:00. > :32:05.enough credit for the release of the Government documents relating

:32:05. > :32:10.to the tragedy. Will the Prime Minister take this opportunity to

:32:10. > :32:14.apologise to the relatives and friends of the victims for these

:32:14. > :32:18.offensive comments? What I would say to all the victims and their

:32:18. > :32:22.families is that this Government has done the right thing by opening

:32:22. > :32:29.up the Cabinet papers to help to try and find the closure for those

:32:29. > :32:39.people that they seek. In view of the fact that Chancellor Merkel has

:32:39. > :32:45.now called for money on the commission to produce treaty texts,

:32:45. > :32:51.will he agree that the accumulated burden of the European Union has

:32:51. > :32:56.become too great, and locating powers at EU level can undermine

:32:56. > :33:03.democratic accountability, and the time has come to identify those

:33:03. > :33:08.areas in which EU action is no longer workable? These words were

:33:08. > :33:13.uttered by the Deputy Prime Minister more than 10 years ago.

:33:13. > :33:17.have read the same pamphlet. It is very good and sound common sense.

:33:17. > :33:21.We do not know when the treaty change will be proposed and how

:33:21. > :33:24.great it will be. I am clear and the coalition is clear that there

:33:24. > :33:34.will be opportunities to advance our national interest and that is

:33:34. > :33:41.what we should be focused on. Miliband.

:33:41. > :33:44.Mr Speaker, Mr Speaker... Mr Speaker, at the summit today does

:33:44. > :33:48.the Prime Minister agree with me that we need not just for Greece

:33:48. > :33:52.and Italy to sort out their problems and the proper

:33:52. > :33:57.recapitalisation of Europe's banks, but also an agenda to help Europe

:33:57. > :34:02.and indeed Britain to grow? What is absolutely necessary this evening

:34:02. > :34:05.is to deal with the key elements of the eurozone crisis, which is

:34:05. > :34:09.acting as a drag anchor on many economies including our own. The

:34:09. > :34:15.key elements of that a decisive action to deal with the Greeks

:34:15. > :34:19.situation, a proper recapitalisation of the banks which

:34:19. > :34:24.has not happened in Europe up till now and the stress test has not add

:34:24. > :34:27.credibility, but the most important thing is the construction of the

:34:27. > :34:30.firewall in the European fund to prevent contagion a elsewhere. He

:34:30. > :34:35.is right that a wider growth strategy across Europe is required

:34:35. > :34:39.and that is what was debated on Sunday. That is where the

:34:39. > :34:42.Commission proposals in terms of completing the services direct give

:34:43. > :34:47.at liberalising the energy policy and cutting regulation, all of

:34:47. > :34:51.those proposals could have been written right here in London.

:34:51. > :34:55.are long-term measures but we also need immediate action for growth

:34:55. > :34:59.and that needs to happen not just at European meetings but at the G20

:34:59. > :35:03.next week. We know that his real focus has not been on sorting out

:35:03. > :35:08.the eurozone crisis, unfortunately. It has been sorting out the

:35:08. > :35:14.problems on his own side. He said on Monday that his priority was to

:35:14. > :35:17.repatriate powers from Europe. Which powers and when? One serious

:35:17. > :35:27.question and then straight on to the politics, how absolutely

:35:27. > :35:28.

:35:28. > :35:32.typical. Led may just make his point. -- let me. When it comes to

:35:32. > :35:37.the meeting receiving about the future of Europe, the idea that you

:35:37. > :35:47.could go into that meeting arguing that Britain should at �100 billion

:35:47. > :35:49.

:35:49. > :35:52.to its deficit is a complete and utter joke. -- should add. Let me

:35:52. > :35:57.answer the question directly. The coalition agreement does talk about

:35:57. > :36:03.rebalancing power between Europe and Britain. We are bringing back

:36:03. > :36:08.one power, the bail-out power, that his Government gave away. He said

:36:08. > :36:13.in this House on Monday, I remain firmly committed to bringing back

:36:13. > :36:18.more powers from Brussels. But yesterday, the Deputy Prime

:36:18. > :36:23.Minister, when asked about his plan, said and I quote, it will not work,

:36:23. > :36:28.it will be condemned to failure. One day we have the Prime Minister

:36:28. > :36:33.saying yes to repatriation and 24 hours later, the Deputy Prime

:36:33. > :36:40.Minister says no. On this crucial question, who speaks for the

:36:40. > :36:44.Government? What the Deputy Prime Minister said yesterday was there

:36:44. > :36:48.was a perfect place to rebalance responsibilities between the

:36:48. > :36:56.European Union and its member states. What a contrast with what

:36:56. > :37:03.the leader of the Labour Party said. He was asked by Jon Sopel, yes or

:37:03. > :37:09.no, has Brussels got too much power? Ed Miliband said he did not

:37:09. > :37:12.think it had too much power. What we have is very plain. There is a

:37:12. > :37:16.group of people on this side of the house that once some rebalancing, a

:37:16. > :37:22.group that wants a lot of rebalancing and a complete mark

:37:22. > :37:26.that once they rebalancing at all. -- mug. While that in not come

:37:26. > :37:33.clean about the split between himself and the Deputy Prime

:37:33. > :37:36.Minister? -- why doesn't he come clean? Is David Cameron wrong to

:37:36. > :37:41.promise that some point the idea of another treaty to bring some powers

:37:41. > :37:46.back? He said this. This Government, of which I am Deputy Prime Minister,

:37:46. > :37:51.is not going to launch some kind of dawn raid, some smash-and-grab raid

:37:51. > :37:56.on Brussels. It will not work and it will be condemned to failure. So

:37:56. > :38:05.which is it? Who speeds for the Government? It is no wonder that

:38:05. > :38:14.his back benches feel there is no clarity about his position. Is it

:38:14. > :38:17.his position to get out of the social chapter, yes or no? It is

:38:17. > :38:21.this coalition that has worked together to get us out of the bail-

:38:21. > :38:25.out fund. To get us out of the Greek bail-out. To deliver this

:38:25. > :38:30.year freeze in the European budget. That is what this coalition has

:38:30. > :38:34.achieved. The split that we have is between the right honourable

:38:34. > :38:38.gentleman and reality. We have the greatest proof of that. I talked to

:38:38. > :38:42.the house about this on Monday but it is so good I have to do it again.

:38:42. > :38:49.When he was asked if he wanted to join the euro he said it depends

:38:49. > :38:57.how long I am Prime Minister for. That is the split. The Labour Party

:38:57. > :39:02.and reality. Mr Speaker, he will be going to the council in December to

:39:02. > :39:09.negotiate on behalf of Britain and treaty change may be on the agenda.

:39:09. > :39:13.I ask him the question again. His Education Secretary said on the

:39:13. > :39:18.radio yesterday morning, I think we should take back powers over

:39:18. > :39:22.employment law. His Deputy Prime Minister disagrees. What is the

:39:22. > :39:28.Prime Minister's position? I'd tell you what would be on the agenda if

:39:28. > :39:31.he was going to the meetings in Brussels. We would not be

:39:31. > :39:37.discussing Italy and Greece. It would be Britain handing out the

:39:37. > :39:43.begging bowl, asking for a bail-out. Winnows the honourable gentleman

:39:43. > :39:47.now wants to join the euro. -- we know. They may also want to leave

:39:47. > :39:51.the IMF. There had the opportunity in his Parliament to vote for an

:39:51. > :39:56.increase in IMF funds, which was agreed at the London Council by

:39:56. > :40:00.their own Government. They rejected that. We now have the extraordinary

:40:00. > :40:05.situation when we want to join the euro and leave the IMF. They do not

:40:05. > :40:10.want to be like France, but Monaco. It is no wonder that he had a

:40:10. > :40:14.problem on Monday because the truth is that he led his back benches on,

:40:14. > :40:18.making a promise that he knows he cannot keep and which is ruled out

:40:18. > :40:24.by the coalition agreement. We have a Prime Minister that cannot speak

:40:24. > :40:28.for his Government. On the day of the eurozone crisis we have a Prime

:40:28. > :40:33.Minister who has spent the last week pleading with his backbenchers,

:40:33. > :40:39.not leading for Britain in Europe. I might have had a problem on

:40:39. > :40:42.Monday, I think he has a problem on Wednesday. The truth is, Mr Speaker,

:40:42. > :40:47.if he went to that meeting tonight his message to Berlusconi would be

:40:47. > :40:53.to ignore the market and carry on spending. His message to the rest

:40:53. > :40:57.of Europe would be that they think, Labour think, you spend another

:40:57. > :41:07.�100 billion adding to our deficit. After they finished laughing there

:41:07. > :41:07.

:41:07. > :41:17.would be no time for the rest of the meeting. Order. Order. Members

:41:17. > :41:20.

:41:20. > :41:26.should calm down and listen. There was advised to leaders of the

:41:26. > :41:35.opposition which meant they should not exist in a permanent state of

:41:35. > :41:39.hysteria. As ever, nothing but wisdom from my right honourable

:41:39. > :41:44.friend. Can the Prime Minister tell us whether any more projects have

:41:44. > :41:50.been awarded Investment by the regional growth fund? Does the

:41:50. > :41:55.tally still stand at two businesses helped by his flagship policy?

:41:55. > :42:00.is completely wrong. 40 projects have had the green light for

:42:00. > :42:04.funding. It is completely on schedule. 50 birds was successful

:42:04. > :42:10.in round one, receiving a conditional allocation of �400

:42:10. > :42:18.million, to deliver 27,000 a new jobs, including in its supply

:42:18. > :42:21.chains. She should be welcoming that. My constituency of Rugby was

:42:21. > :42:26.pleased to welcome Mary Portas as part of a review into Britain's

:42:26. > :42:30.high streets. Does the Prime Minister agree with me that Rugby's

:42:30. > :42:34.positive approach to new housing creating new customers for the High

:42:34. > :42:39.Street is an effective way of supporting town centres? I am

:42:39. > :42:42.delighted that Mary Portas has made it to Rugby. I agree that we do

:42:42. > :42:46.need to build more houses and reform the planning system. But we

:42:46. > :42:54.want to do it in a way that gives more control to local people so

:42:54. > :42:58.that we can make sure we have thriving High Street in the future.

:42:58. > :43:04.My constituency is in a state of shock following the brutal murder

:43:04. > :43:09.of a local man, Stuart Walker, the very popular local man. Will the

:43:09. > :43:12.Prime Minister join me in sending condolences to his family? And

:43:12. > :43:16.among much unhelpful speculation about the motivation for this

:43:16. > :43:21.murder, will he join me in calling on local people with any

:43:21. > :43:25.information to go to the police to help with their inquiries?

:43:25. > :43:29.certainly joined the honourable lady in sending condolences to her

:43:29. > :43:32.constituent's family. She is right. It was once said that the police

:43:32. > :43:35.are the public and the public are the police. They cannot solve

:43:35. > :43:41.crimes without the help of the public and I hope everybody will

:43:41. > :43:46.co-operate in the best way that they can. My 14 year-old

:43:46. > :43:49.constituent Liam Groves was killed outside his home by a driver under

:43:49. > :43:56.the influence of drugs. He was sentenced to just eight months in

:43:56. > :44:01.jail and released after four. Will the Prime Minister meet with the

:44:01. > :44:07.family to hear the case for a new law which would mean we'd take drug

:44:07. > :44:12.driving as seriously as we take drink-driving? We really have got

:44:12. > :44:15.to make sure that we start treating drug driving as seriously as drink-

:44:15. > :44:19.driving. This issue has been raised repeatedly but not enough has been

:44:19. > :44:22.done. One of the things that we are doing is making sure that the

:44:23. > :44:27.police are able to test for drug driving and making drug-testing

:44:27. > :44:31.equipment available. As we test that and make sure it works

:44:31. > :44:36.properly, I think we can make sure we strengthen things further and I

:44:36. > :44:41.am happy to look at that. The Bank of England have reprimanded one

:44:41. > :44:46.commercial bank and there may be others that tried to manipulate the

:44:46. > :44:50.gilt market to exploit quantitative easing. Can we have a report on

:44:50. > :44:57.this matter? Can we explain to the bank is that we will use the full

:44:57. > :45:00.force of the law against them if Send a message to all people in

:45:00. > :45:05.financial services that there isn't something called white collar crime

:45:05. > :45:09.that is less serious than other crime. Crime is crime and should be

:45:09. > :45:13.investigated and prosecuted with the full force of the law.

:45:13. > :45:17.Speaker, proposals before this House next week will see cuts to

:45:17. > :45:23.legal aid funding for advice services which in the case of

:45:23. > :45:26.Wiltshire CAB amount to �250,000 a year. I welcome the �20 million

:45:26. > :45:30.stop gap the Government has found the replace this funding next year,

:45:30. > :45:34.but will the Prime Minister ensure that the Government puts in place

:45:34. > :45:38.lasting funding arrangements to sustain these services on which so

:45:38. > :45:42.many people rely? My honourable friend makes an important point,

:45:42. > :45:48.and it is no good people shouting down, every party this this House

:45:48. > :45:54.has accepted the need to reform legal aid. The figures are... You

:45:54. > :45:59.say, "No you haven't" but you have. We spend �39 per head in this

:45:59. > :46:04.country on legal aid compared with �18 per head in New Zealand, and in

:46:04. > :46:08.Spain and France the spending is as low as �5 per head. We are putting

:46:08. > :46:12.in the �28 million additional funding for not for profit

:46:12. > :46:17.organisations. We've rightlies raised the local councils that have

:46:17. > :46:20.gone on funding Citizens Advice Bureaux. This is a very important

:46:20. > :46:25.organisation that does vital work for all our constituents.

:46:25. > :46:28.Speaker, I'm sure the Prime Minister will join me in

:46:28. > :46:33.congratulating Sheffield University's advanced manufacturing

:46:33. > :46:36.research centre, which celebrated its tenth anniversary yesterday and

:46:36. > :46:40.today with a series of events at Westminster, organised in

:46:40. > :46:45.partnership with Boeing and Rolls- Royce. Will he also join with me

:46:45. > :46:49.and the Business Select Committee in endorsing the aim of growing our

:46:49. > :46:53.manufacturing GDP from its current 12.5 % to nearer the 20% enjoyed by

:46:53. > :46:58.most of our competitors? And will he mitt the Government... THE

:46:58. > :47:04.SPEAKER: That's enough. We've got the drift. I agree very much with

:47:04. > :47:07.what the honourable gentleman said. The Deputy Prime Minister hosted

:47:08. > :47:11.Sheffield University at Downing Street to celebrate their success.

:47:11. > :47:16.We are seeing pive signs of rebalancing our commitment recently

:47:16. > :47:21.I was at the big investment BP are making in the North Sea, the

:47:21. > :47:25.opening of the new Airbus factory at Broughton in Wales. Our auto

:47:25. > :47:29.industry, whether Nissan, Toyota or Jaguar Land Rover, all these

:47:29. > :47:35.companies are expanding and bringing more of their production

:47:35. > :47:39.and supply chain onshore. We start from a low base and sadly

:47:39. > :47:43.manufacturing production declined so much over the past decade.

:47:43. > :47:48.Would the Prime Minister join me in welcoming nearly �1 million that's

:47:49. > :47:51.been received in Redditch for the pupil premium and will he persuade

:47:51. > :47:55.the Secretary of State for Education to push for a national

:47:55. > :47:59.funding formula as soon as possible? Discussions about a

:47:59. > :48:02.national funding formula are ongoing. It's a difficult issue to

:48:02. > :48:06.resolve because of the historic patterns of funding around the

:48:06. > :48:12.country. Die think the pupil premium is a major step forward. It

:48:12. > :48:17.is up to �2.6 billion by the end of this Parliament. The report says

:48:17. > :48:19.we've made spending on education much more progressive by the action

:48:19. > :48:24.we've taken. We've taken the decision to protect the schools

:48:24. > :48:28.budget and per-pupil funding and on top of that to add the pupil

:48:28. > :48:34.premium to make sure that we are looking after the less well off in

:48:34. > :48:38.our country. Last month a leaked Downing Street report says, "We

:48:38. > :48:42.know from a range of polls that women are significantly more

:48:42. > :48:48.negative about the Government than men." Why does the Prime Minister

:48:48. > :48:52.this this is? When you are making difficult spending decisions and

:48:52. > :48:55.you have a difficult economic situation and household budgets are

:48:55. > :48:59.under pressure from petrol prices and food price and inflation,

:48:59. > :49:02.clearly that impacts women. The Government wants to do everything

:49:02. > :49:08.it can to help women. That's why we've listed 1 million people out

:49:08. > :49:13.of tax, the majority of whom are women. That's why we are putting

:49:13. > :49:18.much more money and time into the free nursery education for 2-year-

:49:18. > :49:22.old and 3-year-olds. Women working less than 16 hour as week will get

:49:22. > :49:25.childcare. We don't just care about this issue at home. Because of what

:49:25. > :49:32.we are doing in international aid we are going to save 50 ,000 women

:49:32. > :49:39.in childbirth around the world. The IPC have made one decision,

:49:39. > :49:45.which is to grant planning permission for the American waste

:49:45. > :49:48.giant company for 650 tonnes incineratoror in Mid-Bedfordshire.

:49:48. > :49:53.Thousands of people responded to the consultation process saying

:49:53. > :49:56.they do not want this. In the small print of the decision it says this

:49:56. > :49:59.decision is subject to special parliamentary procedure. Will the

:49:59. > :50:04.Prime Minister please let the people of Bedfordshire know that

:50:04. > :50:12.this Government is not like the previous Government? That we listen

:50:12. > :50:14.to local concerns and that we will ensure that this monstrous rubbish-

:50:14. > :50:17.guzzling atmosphere-polluting incinerator will not be imposed

:50:17. > :50:20.upon the people of Bedfordshire? honourable friend makes an

:50:20. > :50:24.important point, there are difficult planning decisions that

:50:24. > :50:28.have to be made. But what this Government has done is make sure

:50:28. > :50:31.that the planning decision is more democratic and reports to

:50:31. > :50:34.Parliament, and Ministers have to take decisions and be accountable.

:50:34. > :50:38.I can't speak for how Ministers have to make the decisions, but

:50:38. > :50:43.we've ended the idea of the vast quango with absolutely no

:50:43. > :50:47.accountability, as she rightly says. The Prime Minister has warned

:50:47. > :50:51.African countries that unless they improve gay rights he will cut

:50:51. > :50:56.their aid. Yet in many African countries where we pour in millions

:50:56. > :51:02.of pounds of aid, Christians face great persecution. Destruction of

:51:02. > :51:06.churches, lives and property. Here in the UK if you display a Bible

:51:06. > :51:12.verse on the wall of a cafe you face prosecution. Was Ann

:51:12. > :51:17.Widdecombe right when she said that in the 21st century hedgehogs have

:51:17. > :51:21.more rights than Christians? Widdecombe is often right. The way

:51:21. > :51:25.we judge our aid decisions to look at human rights across the piece

:51:25. > :51:30.that. Does mean how many people are treating Christians and the

:51:30. > :51:36.appalling behaviour that some African countries treat people who

:51:36. > :51:43.are gay. In Eastbourne we recruited recently 1881 apprentices in 100

:51:43. > :51:48.days. My local training provider, Sussex Downs, tells me that 91% of

:51:48. > :51:51.their hospitality apprentices go into full-time jobs. Will he agree

:51:51. > :51:53.that apprentices work and in Eastbourne they work particularly

:51:54. > :51:59.well? I'm happy to agree with my honourable friend about this. We

:51:59. > :52:02.did find funding for an extra 50 ,000 apprenticeships last year and

:52:02. > :52:06.achieved almost double that because of the enthusiasm there is amongst

:52:06. > :52:12.the business community and young people to take on these apprentices.

:52:12. > :52:15.We are running at about 360,000 a year and hope to achieve 250,000

:52:15. > :52:18.more apprentices than were planned under the last Government. It's a

:52:18. > :52:22.really important development in our country. We want to make sure the

:52:22. > :52:27.the schemes are really aimed at young people who need work and

:52:27. > :52:30.aimed at the higher level, people going on to get degree-equivalent

:52:30. > :52:35.qualifications, so it is not seen as a second best. For many people

:52:35. > :52:39.it's the right career path. There are companies like Rolls-Royce

:52:39. > :52:45.where many people on the board started with an aplenty isship.

:52:45. > :52:49.reflection is now the right time for the Prime Minister a to scrap

:52:49. > :52:55.Labour's indeterminate sentences, as the Justice Secretary wants to

:52:55. > :52:59.do, to save violent criminals from damaging the British public? Does

:52:59. > :53:01.he agree this shouldn't be about prison places but protection of the

:53:01. > :53:05.public? My honourable friend will be making an announcement about

:53:05. > :53:09.this shortly, but I think what he will find is we are going to be

:53:09. > :53:13.replacing a failed system that doesn't work, that public don't

:53:13. > :53:17.understand, with tough, determinant sentences. People have always

:53:17. > :53:21.wanted to know that when you get sent to prison for a serious

:53:21. > :53:26.offence you don't, as currently, get let out halfway through. We

:53:26. > :53:31.want to end that scandal and I expect lit have widespread support.

:53:31. > :53:39.If women were to start businesses at the same rate as men we would

:53:39. > :53:43.have 150 ,000 more businesses we are year this this country. I have

:53:43. > :53:49.exceptional female entrepreneurs in my constituency, such as Kath kid

:53:49. > :53:53.stofpblt what can the Prime Minister do to encourage -- Cath

:53:53. > :53:56.Kidston. In the last budget there were a series of steps like the

:53:56. > :54:01.enterprise finance schemes that we've established, like the changes

:54:01. > :54:03.to capital gains tax. The biggest change is a change in culture, in

:54:03. > :54:09.encouraging people to take that first step and supporting them

:54:09. > :54:14.along the way as they go. Last week this House, to its great

:54:14. > :54:16.credit, supported unanimously full transparency from Government of all

:54:16. > :54:21.document relating to the Hillsborough disaster. Will he now

:54:21. > :54:24.join me in calling on the South Yorkshire Police to follow the

:54:24. > :54:31.example of the honourable member for Sheffield South East and commit

:54:31. > :54:40.to exact same openness and ensure the Hillsborough independent panel

:54:40. > :54:43.has unredacted access to all paper s? I will certainly look at the

:54:43. > :54:47.issues. I think the Government has done what it should, in terms of

:54:47. > :54:56.the Cabinet papers, but I'm happy to look at the points she raises

:54:56. > :55:03.and come back to her. Would my right honourable friend join me in

:55:03. > :55:07.praising all those adopt ers and foster carers for the fantastic

:55:07. > :55:14.work they do, to encourage others to come forward and foster and

:55:14. > :55:19.adopt and to recognise during National Care leaves Week that we

:55:19. > :55:22.can do much more to provide the support that they often need

:55:22. > :55:28.anduals deserve? I agree with my honourable friend. His own parents

:55:28. > :55:32.I think helped to foster around 90 children over the last few decades.

:55:32. > :55:38.Ats magnificent example. I think we really need to attack every aspect

:55:38. > :55:42.of this issue. It is a national scandal that there are 3 ,660

:55:42. > :55:46.children in the care system under the age of one. Last year I think

:55:46. > :55:50.there were only 60 adoptions of those children. We've got to do a

:55:50. > :55:55.lot better. Part of it is bureaucracy, part of it is culture,

:55:55. > :55:58.but a lot of it is encouraging good foster and adoptive parents to come

:55:58. > :56:04.forward and give them the security and knowledge that the process

:56:04. > :56:08.won't be as bad as it is now. My honourable friend is Children's

:56:08. > :56:15.Minister is leading this work. I'm confident we can make real

:56:15. > :56:19.breakthroughs in this area. On 11 August the Prime Minister told this

:56:19. > :56:24.House there would be a report to Parliament on cross-Government

:56:24. > :56:27.activity relating to gangs. Where is that report and when will we

:56:27. > :56:30.see? We are working across Whitehall on the gang issue. I

:56:30. > :56:35.think in the past this was something that was dealt with in

:56:35. > :56:38.the Home Office but there wasn't the same input from other

:56:38. > :56:43.departments. When we are ready for a report to Parliament, we will

:56:43. > :56:47.make it. When I worked in the private sector

:56:47. > :56:52.I benefited from statutory maternity leave. Can the Prime

:56:52. > :56:58.Minister remind the House how this Government is making work more

:56:58. > :57:02.flexible and more family friendly? How typical of the party opposite

:57:02. > :57:08.if someone talks about the private sector or job creation, all they've

:57:08. > :57:11.got is a lack of respect and sneering. It is just absolutely

:57:11. > :57:14.typical. My honourable friend speaks from great experience. We do

:57:14. > :57:18.want to be a family friendly Government. That's why we are

:57:18. > :57:22.putting the extra hours and help into nursery education, into the

:57:22. > :57:30.child tax credits, increasing it by �290 for the least well-off

:57:30. > :57:34.families, and we'll be introducing proper help for flexible parenting.

:57:34. > :57:40.Westminster police command are now required to lose 240 police

:57:40. > :57:43.community support officers, slash by two thirds the number of PCSs

:57:44. > :57:47.doing security and counter- terrorism work, and further require

:57:47. > :57:50.every police community support officer in the borough to reapply

:57:50. > :57:56.for their own jobs. What message does the Prime Minister thinks this

:57:56. > :58:00.sends to the public who want to see visible patrol-based policing on

:58:00. > :58:03.their streets? Well, the point I would like to the honourable lady,

:58:03. > :58:09.we are asking the Metropolitan Police Authority to find a cash

:58:09. > :58:13.reduction over four years of 6.2%. We face an enormous deficit in this

:58:13. > :58:18.country, because of what we inherited from the party opposite.

:58:18. > :58:25.We do have to make difficult decision. I don't think it is

:58:25. > :58:28.impossible to find a 6.2% cash reduction while keeping frontline

:58:28. > :58:35.policing at the same time. I'm confident Boris Johnson will do

:58:35. > :58:40.exactly that. Is the Prime Minister as enthusiastic as I am for the

:58:40. > :58:42.Localism Bill. Does he agree the best way to tackle disengagement is

:58:42. > :58:46.through local accountability? think my honourable friend makes a

:58:46. > :58:51.very good point. We all know we are not building enough in this country,

:58:51. > :58:54.in terms of houses for our young people or to end the scandal of

:58:54. > :58:59.overcrowding for people on housing lists. The best way to get that to

:58:59. > :59:03.happen is to make sure that local people feel they have a say and

:59:03. > :59:06.control over development in their own area. That's the way to square

:59:07. > :59:12.the circumstancele. The top down targets of the last Government

:59:13. > :59:17.didn't work. The localist approach will work. The Prime Minister

:59:17. > :59:21.pledged to fight bare knuckled against hospital closures will he

:59:21. > :59:26.guarantee that for as long as he is Prime Minister there'll be no

:59:26. > :59:32.hospital closures on his watch? pledge I can make is we are

:59:33. > :59:36.expanding and funding the expansion of his hospital.

:59:36. > :59:39.Can I congratulate the Prime Minister and thank him forual the

:59:39. > :59:42.work this the Department for Education regarding free schools?

:59:42. > :59:46.And can he please give encouragement to the two sets of

:59:46. > :59:52.parent groups who are looking to build two free schools, a junior

:59:52. > :59:54.and a secondary one, in south Derbyshire? I can certainly give

:59:54. > :59:58.the honourable lady that encouragement. I think the free

:59:58. > :00:07.schools policy is a great success. We see a number of high-quality

:00:07. > :00:13.the opposition towards this policy. What we had was a new Education

:00:13. > :00:17.Secretary who in the first plushs of the job -- flushs of job, said

:00:17. > :00:21.he would support free schools but as soon as Unite picked up the

:00:21. > :00:26.phone to him, he had to drop that altogether. If you want to know

:00:26. > :00:33.what their policy is now, he said we oppose the policy but some of

:00:33. > :00:36.them are going to be really, really good schools. Run by really good

:00:36. > :00:39.people. And we must not put ourselves in a position as a Labour

:00:39. > :00:46.Party of opposing these schools, so they opposed the policy but they

:00:46. > :00:49.support the schools. What a complete bunch of hypocrites.

:00:49. > :00:55.Can the Prime Minister explain why his Secretary of State for Health

:00:55. > :00:58.was able to make concessions to the liberal del on the Health Bill in

:00:58. > :01:02.the other place but was unable to recognise if need for these change

:01:02. > :01:07.when they were debated here? Isn't this more about doing political

:01:07. > :01:12.deals instead of what's right for our NHS? We are doing what's right

:01:12. > :01:16.for our NHS. That's why average waiting times for inpatients are

:01:16. > :01:20.down, for outpatients are down, hospital infections are at their

:01:20. > :01:24.lowest level ever. We've got mixed sex wards down 91% under this

:01:24. > :01:28.Government. The number of managers is down The number of doctor sups.

:01:28. > :01:32.If she wants to see further improvements to the Health Bill

:01:32. > :01:37.there'll be plenty of opportunities. Two thirds of the young people

:01:37. > :01:41.involved this the riots had a special educational need. Does the

:01:41. > :01:45.Prime Minister agree that this underlines the need for complex

:01:45. > :01:49.solutions which tackle educational underachievement, rehabilitation as

:01:49. > :01:53.well as punishment? Of course, as I've said many times, we have to

:01:53. > :01:57.look behind the statistics and what happened and ask ourselves how

:01:57. > :02:01.we've allowed so much to go wrong in our society. Clearly education

:02:01. > :02:05.and special education needs play a role in that. I do think it is

:02:05. > :02:09.important and the public want to see swift justice and punishment

:02:09. > :02:19.handed out when people break the law. We did see that at the same

:02:19. > :02:19.

:02:19. > :02:23.time of the riots and we should see PMQs comes to an end. The exchanges

:02:23. > :02:29.were dominated by Europe, as we predicted. Not a difficult

:02:29. > :02:38.prediction. Mr Miliband trying to get some clear blue, or even pink,

:02:38. > :02:41.Cameron over the matter of whether power should be repatriated. The

:02:41. > :02:46.Prime Minister falling back on the word that Nick Clegg had used,

:02:46. > :02:50.rebalance. Charles Kennedy reminded us that was in the coalition

:02:50. > :02:55.agreement so they are using that word. The dog that did not bark.

:02:55. > :02:59.Not a single backbench MP got up and raced the matter on which

:02:59. > :03:03.almost 100 of them voted against a three-line whip on Monday night,

:03:03. > :03:09.which was of course Europe and the referendum. They prefer to talk

:03:09. > :03:12.about incinerators and localism, or anything but Europe, in fact. We

:03:12. > :03:16.will find out what this means in a moment but first we want to know

:03:16. > :03:20.what you thought. Some viewers have picked up on the row over Europe

:03:20. > :03:24.and the referendum. There seems to be widespread disappointment from

:03:24. > :03:32.both leaders, about both leaders I should say, in terms of being

:03:32. > :03:37.pinned down on Europe. "At they were both poor today. Ed Miliband

:03:38. > :03:43.had an open goal on Europe but like Fernando Torres he blew it." 2 and

:03:44. > :03:49.another one, David Cameron is acting like he is in opposition

:03:49. > :03:56.rather than answering questions. And Ed Miliband has a poor

:03:56. > :04:00.performance at PMQs, failing to paint David Cameron down -- pin him

:04:00. > :04:05.down on Europe. This is the most evasive performance from David

:04:05. > :04:09.Cameron, failing to answer the questions. But Helen says that

:04:09. > :04:13.David won by a knockout. The EU is too important to keep trying to

:04:13. > :04:18.score political points. And Ian Whitely says no answers to clear

:04:18. > :04:21.questions. The Government is divided at the top about Europe.

:04:21. > :04:25.David Cameron quotes Ed Miliband but never answers the questions.

:04:25. > :04:29.And finally, from Damien in Manchester, why does Ed Miliband

:04:29. > :04:35.waste is questions on pointless and obvious differences between David

:04:35. > :04:39.Cameron and Nick Clegg from two different parties? Because that is

:04:39. > :04:47.what we do! That is the kind of thing we do! What does it all mean,

:04:47. > :04:52.James? We saw two things, the beginning of a pattern where Europe

:04:52. > :04:56.will be the running injury that Labour will grind salt into, and

:04:56. > :05:00.the question of repatriation. We will hear more on that. Until

:05:00. > :05:03.something happens, that question cannot be answered. MPs will not

:05:03. > :05:07.get clarity on that before the next election because it will be a

:05:07. > :05:11.dividing line with the Liberal Democrat. We saw the new realities

:05:11. > :05:15.of coalition Government. It is possible within the coalition

:05:15. > :05:19.Government to have two parties that disagree on a policy, and you just

:05:19. > :05:22.park the issue. That is OK when there is no political pressure

:05:22. > :05:25.either way. There is now a huge political pressure on the

:05:25. > :05:29.Government from the backbenches, and the Government is under

:05:29. > :05:32.pressure to do something, which will lead to tensions. There are

:05:32. > :05:35.already discussions going on among MPs about the implications that

:05:35. > :05:42.this has for the and stitching of the coalition before the general

:05:42. > :05:47.election. -- unstitching. Timing and method. This may be true of

:05:47. > :05:53.both sides of the house. When backbenchers stage over Bellion and

:05:53. > :05:59.give their own side a bloody nose, -- stage a rebellion, there next

:05:59. > :06:03.instinct is to rally round the leader. Other than one question,

:06:03. > :06:07.not a single difficult question from his own side. I think they

:06:07. > :06:11.feel they have made their point because they made it forcefully

:06:11. > :06:15.earlier this week. Politicians are tribal. When they have to put

:06:15. > :06:19.policy before party, as they do sometimes, as they have done many

:06:19. > :06:28.times before, they get uncomfortable. They then retrench

:06:28. > :06:32.and tried to rejoin. The issue will not go away. They are looking for

:06:32. > :06:38.other issues, to bring this up as a vote. They are forming a little

:06:38. > :06:42.committee to a cat which powers should be repatriated. -- to look

:06:42. > :06:48.at which powers. The desire to try to get the Tories away from Europe,

:06:48. > :06:52.that is not going to happen. Europe is an important issue. What is the

:06:52. > :06:56.big issue of the day? It is what is going to happen in the eurozone

:06:56. > :06:59.particularly, but that is the European Union issue. The idea that

:06:59. > :07:03.it can never be talked about some how is absurd. There are very

:07:04. > :07:09.strong views about it. The question that Bernard Jenkin asked was

:07:09. > :07:14.actually not particularly unhelpful. It was making the point that Nick

:07:14. > :07:19.Clegg has in the past made the case that there may be some powers that

:07:19. > :07:23.we should look at repatriating. I am not aware that the Lib Dems have

:07:23. > :07:28.never said we could never contemplate any powers coming back.

:07:28. > :07:35.That has never been the case. There is a huge amount to discuss here.

:07:35. > :07:39.Is that the case? That is the case. You are not keen on it. I on the

:07:39. > :07:42.fisheries policy you have said you could repatriate that. We have

:07:42. > :07:47.always said that about the fisheries policy. You represent

:07:47. > :07:54.lots of fisheries seats. That is partly it and we had lot of

:07:54. > :07:57.expertise in that issue. Perhaps when you get expertise in other

:07:57. > :08:03.areas you might change your opinions on them as well. I think

:08:03. > :08:06.we are changing your views. But coming back to vocabulary,

:08:06. > :08:11.repatriation versus rebalancing. The other phrase that I noticed you

:08:11. > :08:17.jotting down was in response to Bernard Jenkin, which was a telling

:08:17. > :08:20.question, that they will use it as an opportunity to advance the

:08:20. > :08:25.national interest. The Liberal Democrats and the Conservatives

:08:26. > :08:35.apparently agree about this. I detect the sense of a masterclass,

:08:36. > :08:38.

:08:38. > :08:41.which will hold for a few months. - - as sense of sticking plaster.

:08:41. > :08:46.defy repatriate something from Brussels to London, I have

:08:46. > :08:49.rebalance the power arrangement. And if I rebalance something by

:08:49. > :08:54.moving something from Brussels to London, I have repatriated

:08:54. > :08:57.something. Do you understand the difference? I think the difference

:08:57. > :09:04.is a political difference and they have to find wording that they

:09:04. > :09:07.agree on. I think the Government are in a difficult situation. We

:09:07. > :09:12.all know that the Lib Dems and Tories have different views on some

:09:12. > :09:20.issues, but people do want to know what the Government things. I think

:09:21. > :09:24.that is where people feel what is the Government delivering? And

:09:24. > :09:28.should we repatriate the social chapter, making those decisions in

:09:28. > :09:34.Britain? What would be wrong with making those decisions in Britain?

:09:34. > :09:38.The fact is they did not come from Britain. They didn't. But why

:09:39. > :09:43.should they not? Your party could have made those decisions when in

:09:44. > :09:46.Government. Lot of them came in when the Conservatives were in

:09:46. > :09:55.power because the Conservatives did not make those decisions, they came

:09:55. > :09:59.from Europe. Do you have a problem... You have lost the power

:09:59. > :10:03.to make decisions for ourselves. Why can we not be grown-up enough

:10:03. > :10:08.to make our own decisions? Do you have a problem with the maternity

:10:08. > :10:12.bill? That is not the point. Should we be able to make those decisions

:10:12. > :10:17.ourselves in relation to Britain's particular circumstances? We have

:10:17. > :10:22.different demographics and work force. Why do we need to aggregate

:10:22. > :10:26.our response? Are there things you do not like? There may well be lots

:10:26. > :10:29.of things in it that we would want and should have, and others we do

:10:29. > :10:35.not want, but that should be for Westminster to decide rather than

:10:35. > :10:38.Brussels. Can you answer that? do not know what these things are

:10:38. > :10:44.that David Cameron or Michael Gove want to bring back to Britain.

:10:44. > :10:49.was not what I asked, but never mind. James, you want to batten.

:10:49. > :10:53.think the honest truth is that the treaty changes will be relatively

:10:53. > :10:58.minor. The Government will use those, we understand, to argue the

:10:58. > :11:03.case for protecting the City of London and the markets. It will not

:11:03. > :11:07.be massive repatriation of powers, which is something for a later date.

:11:07. > :11:11.All the MPs say that his election issue and it will not happen now.

:11:11. > :11:14.Unless they can find a couple of issues around which Conservatives

:11:14. > :11:16.and Liberal Democrats can agree. The Conservatives have already

:11:16. > :11:20.persuaded the Liberal Democrats that there should be movement on

:11:20. > :11:24.work tribunals, extending the period from one year to two. There

:11:24. > :11:29.is a possibility that the Government will make unilateral

:11:29. > :11:36.repatriation on a couple of things, and that is where the debate will

:11:36. > :11:46.focus. Is it your understanding, but the eurozone create a fiscal

:11:46. > :11:47.

:11:47. > :11:55.union without the approval of the for EU? -- could be eurozone.

:11:55. > :11:59.don't know. That is why I am asking! You need to ask somebody

:11:59. > :12:05.with knowledge in the law and they do not know if that is possible or

:12:05. > :12:12.not. You said earlier that I signed the Maastricht Treaty as Norman

:12:12. > :12:16.Lamont's deputy. I was not the Europe minister. That was clever!

:12:16. > :12:25.He said he was very busy and it was my chance to put my foot print on

:12:25. > :12:30.something. Here is a mug! We do have to move on. If Ed Miliband was

:12:30. > :12:35.going to Brussels today as our Prime Minister, would there be in

:12:35. > :12:38.substance any real difference in British policy? I think the big

:12:38. > :12:43.difference is whether we think that cuts alone will get us out of the

:12:44. > :12:48.current crisis. Wait a second. It is a big issue. Unless you have got

:12:48. > :12:53.jobs and growth, and Greece has been in recession for four years

:12:53. > :12:56.with an implement over 50%, it is hard to service the debt without

:12:56. > :13:00.employment and growth. That is why we have seen the problems in Greece

:13:00. > :13:05.growing. We need a strategy for jobs and growth across Europe

:13:05. > :13:09.because that helps to get the economy back on track and it helps

:13:09. > :13:15.the deficit as well. But would there be any difference at the

:13:15. > :13:19.summit today? It is about whether this issue is on the agenda. If you

:13:19. > :13:23.take the G20 summit, that was about dealing with the immediate problems

:13:23. > :13:27.with the banks. But also about getting the economy moving again.

:13:27. > :13:30.That is what we do not have at the moment. We need jobs and growth

:13:30. > :13:34.across Britain and Europe if we are going to get the economy back on

:13:34. > :13:38.track and pay back the deficit. That has to be on the agenda

:13:39. > :13:42.because it is important to the solution. I am not sure how you

:13:42. > :13:52.would sue hornet into today's agenda but it was just a

:13:52. > :13:53.

:13:53. > :13:58.hypothetical question. -- shoehorn. Ever since the phone hacking

:13:58. > :14:01.scandal, we have been putting the boot in to the Police Complaints

:14:01. > :14:09.Commission. Ed Miliband have described them as a toothless

:14:09. > :14:12.poodle. Poor thing. But Sir Christopher Meyer, chairman of the

:14:12. > :14:14.PCC when the scandal hit the headlines in 2006, things that the

:14:14. > :14:18.commission has been made a scapegoat.

:14:18. > :14:21.The victims of the great phone hacking scandal have been queuing

:14:21. > :14:25.in their dozens to receive generous compensation from News

:14:25. > :14:31.International. But there is one victim that is more likely to be

:14:31. > :14:36.punished, even liquidated. That is the Press Complaints Commission.

:14:36. > :14:44.The PCC. I was its chairman when the phone hacking affair first

:14:44. > :14:47.broke in 2006. It is a bad rap, it has been politically expedient to

:14:47. > :14:52.make the PCC the whipping boy for the failures of a police

:14:52. > :14:58.investigation. Phone hacking is a criminal offence. It is not the job

:14:58. > :15:02.of the PCC to enforce the criminal law. Clive Goodman and Glenn

:15:02. > :15:10.Mulcaire were found guilty under the Regulation of investigatory

:15:10. > :15:15.Powers Act. That is why they went to prison. Of course the PCC also

:15:15. > :15:18.bans phone hacking, unless the public interest justifies it. But

:15:18. > :15:23.when its code of practice overlaps with the law, it is the law that

:15:23. > :15:33.must take precedence. That is why the PCC could make no investigation

:15:33. > :15:38.of its own until the legal process The PCC's report published in May

:15:38. > :15:43.2007, soon after the imprisonment of Messrs Goodsman and Mulcaire,

:15:43. > :15:51.focused on the lessons to be learned and new and tighter rules

:15:51. > :15:55.for the agents. That is what the PCC is for - to raise standards.

:15:55. > :16:05.And people forget that the report was widely welcomed by the

:16:05. > :16:11.Government, by MPs, and, pass the smelling salgts, by the Guardian. -

:16:11. > :16:18.- smelling salts. And yet today it is not good enough. It should have,

:16:18. > :16:21.say the police, quasi powers of enforcement. But that's a further

:16:21. > :16:26.erosion of our liberties. The commission should have known what

:16:26. > :16:31.was going on, but that would have needed a commissar in the newsroom

:16:31. > :16:35.with telepathic powers and X-ray eyes. Or the PCC should be

:16:35. > :16:40.disbanded. Well, then, so should the police, because they can't stop

:16:40. > :16:44.crime. The pity of it all is that phone hacking is a distraction from

:16:44. > :16:48.what needs to be done to strengthen self regulation. Meanwhile the PCC

:16:48. > :16:52.has never been more used by the general public than it is today.

:16:52. > :17:02.What an irony that Lord Justice Leveson should be questioning its

:17:02. > :17:03.

:17:03. > :17:09.very existence. Sir Christopher Meyer joins us.

:17:09. > :17:13.Good to see you. You said what you said there, but isn't the harsh

:17:13. > :17:16.truth that when British journalism was faced with its greatest crisis

:17:16. > :17:23.of modern times, in terms of standards and ethics, the phone

:17:23. > :17:28.hacking, the PCC was missing in action? Absolutely false. I

:17:28. > :17:33.explained it as succinctly as I could in that television film. The

:17:33. > :17:36.people who needed to be in action when a crime is committed are the

:17:36. > :17:42.police, the Crown Prosecution Service and the courts. And they

:17:42. > :17:48.were. Once they were out of the way, within days the PCC went into a.

:17:48. > :17:51.And this is the way it should be. When the PCC looked at this first

:17:51. > :17:55.time round, it gave the News Of The World a clean bill of health. And

:17:55. > :17:59.when it was asked to look at it again, not only did it accept a

:17:59. > :18:03.letter from the editor of the News Of The World giving it another

:18:03. > :18:09.clean bill of health but it attacked the Guardian for daring

:18:09. > :18:16.the raise the issue all the time. Well, Mr Neil, I will answer for

:18:16. > :18:22.the PCC for the time when I was its chairman 2006, May 2007, the report

:18:22. > :18:25.that we did, did not give by anyway or means a clean bill of health to

:18:25. > :18:32.the News Of The World. We said that the police investigation and what

:18:32. > :18:36.we had been told by the new editor of the News Of The World, Mr Colin

:18:36. > :18:40.Miner, did not disclose further information beyond the fact that it

:18:40. > :18:45.seemed to be a rogue operation. We reflected what we had been told.

:18:45. > :18:50.And the subsequent attack on the Guardian and acceptance of the

:18:50. > :18:58.letter from the News Of The World? You must summon to this bar here

:18:58. > :19:04.the following chairman of the Press Complaints Commission, Lady

:19:04. > :19:09.Buscombe. We had her on here and I don't think she will be back, can I

:19:09. > :19:13.tell you! The problem was not that the PCC is fine as long as Sir

:19:14. > :19:19.Christopher Meyer is chairman, but that the PCC is fine, that was your

:19:19. > :19:21.argument. No, my argument is that the phone hacking scandal is not

:19:21. > :19:26.particularly useful nor particularly relevant to what needs

:19:26. > :19:31.to be done to strengthen self regulation. What about the other

:19:31. > :19:37.issue on privacy? I know phone hacking was in some ways privacy

:19:37. > :19:43.but it was the illegality and criminality. The culture and media

:19:43. > :19:50.committee said if if PCC was more balanced and effective it is more

:19:50. > :19:55.likely people would want to use it on privacy matters, but they don't.

:19:55. > :20:00.I find that completely lunatic, flying in the face of facts. The

:20:00. > :20:05.PCC does 300 privacy cases in a year. The courts do, I don't know,

:20:05. > :20:09.five, ten? Something like that. Overwhelmingly the general public,

:20:09. > :20:13.these are the people who we should be concerned about, not whinging

:20:13. > :20:17.MPs in Westminster, the general public flock to the PCC while

:20:17. > :20:22.celebs and footballers and, I won't mention other people, go to the

:20:22. > :20:26.courts. Go on, mention another person. You know who I'm talking

:20:26. > :20:30.about. The fact of the matter is that thousands of people come to

:20:30. > :20:35.the PCC. Think would not do so if it were a failed organisation.

:20:35. > :20:41.me bring in a couple of whinging MPs, as you described them. Is it

:20:41. > :20:46.not the Government's view now that this voluntary regulation, that

:20:46. > :20:53.game is over for the media? No, I don't think it is necessarily, but

:20:53. > :20:58.it does need to be effective. would you do that Look and see at

:20:58. > :21:02.Lord Justice Leveson comes up with. I'm not going to pre-empt his view.

:21:02. > :21:08.So the matter's been kicked into the long grass until the report

:21:08. > :21:13.comes out? We know it is going to take a long time. There is no point

:21:13. > :21:18.coming up with knee-jerk solutions here. I think Sir Christopher Meyer

:21:18. > :21:22.is right that much of what the PCC has done is effective. Do you think

:21:22. > :21:26.it behaved well in the phone hacking scandal? I'm not going to

:21:26. > :21:30.make that judgment here at all. I think Christopher's point that

:21:30. > :21:33.phone hacking was illegal, that it whereas a criminal offence, it is a

:21:33. > :21:40.Press Complaints Commission. It is about dealing with complaints that

:21:40. > :21:44.people make. I think we should be pretty sceptical about statutory

:21:44. > :21:48.regulation of the press. A free press, if you are a Member of

:21:49. > :21:53.Parliament, a free press is often a massive pain in the neck but it is

:21:53. > :21:57.a crucial pillar. Even if you are a part of it it's a massive pain in

:21:57. > :22:05.the neck at times. Does Labour have a policy towards press regulation?

:22:05. > :22:09.Well, fine with self regulation... So you are? Well, if it works.

:22:09. > :22:17.it? What we heard from Sir Christopher is the editor said that

:22:17. > :22:22.things were OK and then it was give an clean bill of health. The PCC

:22:22. > :22:29.didn't work and it let people down. We were right to set up an inquiry

:22:29. > :22:32.but we need (Inaudible) at the end of it. Like Francis, we asked for

:22:32. > :22:36.an inquiry to be done, so the fact that Lord Justice Leveson is

:22:36. > :22:41.reporting, and that's the right thing to do. Clearly we can't go

:22:41. > :22:46.back to business as usual in terms of regulation of the press.

:22:46. > :22:50.wouldn't bet on it. A on that note of consensus between

:22:50. > :22:57.the two front benches, we'll move on. Sir Christopher Meyer. Thank

:22:57. > :23:03.you. It is the middle of the half- term holiday but for many teachers,

:23:03. > :23:11.rather than relaxing they are in Westminster lobbying against plans

:23:11. > :23:17.for their pension. 130,000 have signed, so what are their concerns?

:23:17. > :23:22.My main concern is as a primary school teacher the energy that it

:23:22. > :23:28.takes to be a primary school teacher and just the difficulty

:23:28. > :23:32.then if you are to go on to be 66 or 68 years of age have that energy

:23:32. > :23:36.to keep the standards and the standard of teaching and learning

:23:37. > :23:42.up. I feel we've been left out on a limb and we are not being, that

:23:42. > :23:48.they are not accountable to what they said they would do, and we are

:23:48. > :23:52.just going to be down the road with hardly any money when we retire.

:23:52. > :23:57.didn't enter the profession to make a lot of money. However, we are in

:23:57. > :24:00.a pension scheme which was already altered in 2007 to make it

:24:00. > :24:04.affordable. According to figures it is still affordable. And now the

:24:04. > :24:07.Government is threatening to hit us several times, raising the

:24:07. > :24:12.contributions and reducing the pension which we will get. It is

:24:12. > :24:16.not fair. Mary Bousted is General Secretary

:24:16. > :24:19.of the Association of Teachers and Lecturers. Francis Maude is here,

:24:19. > :24:25.who has been in discussions with the public sect ore unions, what

:24:25. > :24:29.would you like him to do? I boo like him to give us cost ceiling

:24:29. > :24:33.for pension, give us an amount we can negotiate with and make it a

:24:33. > :24:40.reasonable one. We've waited nine months for a cost ceiling. The

:24:40. > :24:45.amount the Government says it can spend simply wraps up all the

:24:45. > :24:54.savage cuts it is proposing to make to teachers' pension, making us

:24:54. > :24:59.work to 68, paying up to 50% more for our contribution. Francis

:24:59. > :25:03.Maude? My response is. This we want there to continue to be decent

:25:03. > :25:06.pensions for teachers and other public sector workers. The truth is

:25:06. > :25:11.these are good pension schemes. After the reforms they will

:25:11. > :25:16.continue to be. We want to be in a position where for most people in

:25:16. > :25:21.the public sector they will be able to retire on a pension that's as

:25:21. > :25:28.good as they have now. We announced cost ceilings a month ago. We had a

:25:28. > :25:35.very good meeting on Monday with the TUC, where we exchanged views.

:25:35. > :25:39.It was a full and frank exchange of views. So you just agreed! We made

:25:39. > :25:46.an agreement that these people will still be able to retire on a

:25:46. > :25:51.pension at least as good as they retire on at the moment. Why are

:25:51. > :25:56.these negotiations not getting any more? Life expectancy is ten years

:25:56. > :26:00.longer, which is great, than in the 1970s and is rising by three months

:26:00. > :26:07.a year. It is not unreasonable to expect, the majority of taxpayers

:26:07. > :26:11.who don't have access to pensions like this, a guarantee of a pension

:26:11. > :26:14.index linked and inflation proof after the reforms. People are

:26:14. > :26:19.living longer why. Should all taxpayers bear the burden of trying

:26:19. > :26:22.to keep going and maintaining public sector pensions? Are you

:26:22. > :26:27.getting anywhere with these negotiations? These are the same

:26:27. > :26:31.arguments you've been using for the last years is. There any progress?

:26:31. > :26:34.There is progress. For the first name the scheme discussions unions

:26:34. > :26:38.have come forward with specific concerns, specifics counter

:26:38. > :26:42.proposals which have been helpful. I pay tribute to the unions for the

:26:42. > :26:47.way in which that's been done. We've been consistently making an

:26:47. > :26:57.offer, saying what we think the right outcome is, but getting very

:26:57. > :26:59.

:26:59. > :27:05.little back. There is now positive and scrubtive engame one of the --

:27:05. > :27:10.constructive feed-back. It sounds like there is progress. We hope

:27:10. > :27:14.there'll be progress. On the age or the contributions for type of

:27:15. > :27:18.scheme? We are not quite there yet. We've waited nine months for the

:27:18. > :27:23.Government to say what the cost ceiling will be. We've got it. We

:27:23. > :27:26.are looking at it. He a meeting with the Department for Education

:27:26. > :27:30.yesterday and we said electronically to the officials we

:27:30. > :27:35.are prepared to negotiate but this cost ceiling isn't good enough. We

:27:35. > :27:39.can't negotiate within this. So we've sent them back, the officials,

:27:39. > :27:43.to say we can present very strong arguments about why the cost

:27:43. > :27:48.ceiling needs to be improved and we are going to do that. Reach reach

:27:48. > :27:53.reach, whose side are you on here? I think we need an outcome --

:27:53. > :27:57.Rachel Reeves, whose side are you on here? I think both sides need to

:27:57. > :28:00.give a bit. The Government commissioned Lord Hutton to produce

:28:00. > :28:05.a report but pre-empted that with the increase in contributions. The

:28:05. > :28:12.unions need to give on things like moving to a career average pension

:28:12. > :28:17.scheme. Would you do that? Retirement age does need to

:28:17. > :28:23.increase as people live longer. Both sides need to give and have

:28:23. > :28:28.frank discussion. At the moment we've had megaphone diplomacy from

:28:28. > :28:32.the Government. No, we've been making proposals. Upping the

:28:32. > :28:37.rhetoric doesn't help get the solution that people in the public

:28:37. > :28:43.sector need and people who rely on public services need. Yes or no to

:28:43. > :28:49.a negotiated deal? You've got to have a negotiated deal. The speaker

:28:49. > :28:55.has ruled he doesn't want the hear the words hypocrite or mug used

:28:55. > :29:02.again. Unparliamentary. But you can always talk about this mug. The