:00:23. > :00:26.Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.
:00:26. > :00:31.The City of London is telling the anti-capitalist campers they've got
:00:31. > :00:36.48 hours to leave, or face eviction. Could this lead to running battles
:00:36. > :00:39.on the steps of St Paul's? The UK economy grew by 0.5% between
:00:39. > :00:46.July and September, a surprise for many, so is it proof the
:00:46. > :00:49.Government's plan is working? Meanwhile, the Greek Prime Minister
:00:49. > :00:53.has stunned the rest of Europe by announcing a referendum on the
:00:53. > :00:59.latest bail-out deal. So, does the whole future of the eurozone now
:00:59. > :01:02.hang on the result? And, the Prime Minister has always
:01:02. > :01:07.vowed to protect Britain's aid budget, but a lot of his own
:01:07. > :01:15.backbenchers are sceptical. So is it time to look at where the money
:01:15. > :01:18.is going? All that in the next half hour. Jo
:01:18. > :01:22.and Andrew are off today, so joining me for the whole programme
:01:22. > :01:27.is Dame Barbara Stocking, the chief executive of Oxfam. Welcome to the
:01:27. > :01:30.Daily Politics. Hello. I'd like to get your thoughts on what's
:01:30. > :01:33.happening down at St Paul's today, where the protesters look as if
:01:33. > :01:36.they're going to be served with legal papers giving them 48 hours
:01:36. > :01:44.to pack their tents. But first, let's get the latest from our
:01:44. > :01:48.correspondent down there, Tamsin Smith. There's a real sense that
:01:48. > :01:52.anticipation is building here. We know there's a meeting ongoing at
:01:52. > :01:56.the Guildhall, where they are hammering out the details of an
:01:56. > :02:00.eviction notice that is going to be served to the protest camp. You can
:02:00. > :02:05.see the camp behind me. They've set up a university, where they are
:02:06. > :02:10.having elects tures, and debates. There are portaloos, a media point,
:02:10. > :02:15.and so they are very much bedding down to stay. It's been a very damp
:02:15. > :02:19.night. There are lots of duvets out airing, but they say that, despite
:02:19. > :02:22.they eviction notice which is going to be served by the City of London
:02:22. > :02:27.Corporation, they will not be moving. They say that, in fact,
:02:27. > :02:32.more protesters will be coming to join them. Interestingly, they say
:02:32. > :02:37.they are also getting lots of funding as well. �1,000 a day, we
:02:37. > :02:44.hear, is pouring in to help fund the protest camp here. And it
:02:44. > :02:46.continues to be an embarrassment, an acute embarrassment for St
:02:46. > :02:51.Paul's Cathedral, who want to stress today that the eviction
:02:51. > :02:54.notice is not being served by them but by the Corporation of London.
:02:54. > :02:58.Do you think there's a risk that the protest might become
:02:58. > :03:02.confrontation as a result of all of this? Sorry, I missed that question.
:03:02. > :03:06.Do you think this protest could become confrontation as a result of
:03:06. > :03:11.this eviction notice? Well, there is not a sense of that. Certainly
:03:11. > :03:16.it is very peaceful at the moment. I've been speaking to some of the
:03:16. > :03:20.protesters, asking them about how long they think they will stay.
:03:20. > :03:26.They say they are happy to stay here until Christmas. Interestingly,
:03:26. > :03:30.they say that this whole debacle, the dilemma it has put the Church
:03:30. > :03:34.in, they say it is positive for them, because it is helping to draw
:03:34. > :03:39.attention to their cause, which primarily is one of anti-capitalism,
:03:39. > :03:43.but you might have seen behind me some of the banners here. There's a
:03:43. > :03:47.raft of disparate cause, very disparate me messages. There isn't
:03:47. > :03:52.a huge sense of cohesion, in terms of the message they are putting
:03:52. > :03:58.across at the moment, but they are riding on the back of the dilemma
:03:58. > :04:03.that's engulfed the St Paul's Cathedral at this moment. Thank you.
:04:03. > :04:08.Dame barb remarks what do you make of what's going on at St Paul's?
:04:08. > :04:11.is going on all over the world. I was in America last week, in
:04:11. > :04:15.Washington and New York, and you've got people camped out there. They
:04:15. > :04:18.are the tip of an iceberg of a lot of people who are really worried
:04:18. > :04:22.about the way the free market system works, and what's happened
:04:22. > :04:26.to banks and the financial system and so on. So they are a small
:04:26. > :04:31.group but they certainly represent a lot hor of the thinking and
:04:31. > :04:37.concern that there is. There are protests two a penny day in and day
:04:37. > :04:42.out, yet why is this one getting the coverage and the impact that
:04:42. > :04:46.others don't? I guess it is because it is global. Also because I think
:04:46. > :04:50.it hits this core that people have, that's what has happened in the
:04:50. > :04:54.last few years in the economy is not fair, not fair for the poorest
:04:54. > :04:58.people in the UK, not fair for the middle income groups who are seeing
:04:58. > :05:01.all the jobs going. People genuinely feel that something is
:05:01. > :05:05.happening here that is not fair. They are not against the Government
:05:05. > :05:09.dealing with the debt crisis but they are saying, "Why is it us?"
:05:09. > :05:15.you think the reason it is making an impact is, in your view, the
:05:15. > :05:19.rightness of the cause, not the tactics they are using in terms of
:05:19. > :05:23.the occupation and the taking on the Church in the City of London?
:05:23. > :05:27.It is a bit of both. A lot of people fundamentally agree with
:05:27. > :05:32.their concerns. They may not agree with camping outside St Paul's. But
:05:32. > :05:36.as they've said on reporting from St Paul's, they've been given a
:05:36. > :05:39.media blessing by the sense of the eviction and all the concerns. Can
:05:39. > :05:44.I understand why the protesters are saying this is getting us into the
:05:44. > :05:48.media and that's good news, it is amplyifying our voice now. Is Oxfam
:05:48. > :05:51.going to learn there from this in the way you campaign? I don't think
:05:51. > :05:55.there is anything wrong with what they are doing as long as they are
:05:55. > :05:58.peaceful. The worry is you might get into a violent situation now.
:05:58. > :06:03.It is perfectly sensible for people to want to demonstrate about things
:06:03. > :06:06.that are wrong in their own society. We would absolutely back that. The
:06:06. > :06:09.tricky bit is it is not entirely clear which bits they are really
:06:10. > :06:14.campaigning against, but that general sense of unease with the
:06:14. > :06:17.economy. Barbara, for now, thank you.
:06:18. > :06:21.So, the latest growth figures are out, and for once the Government
:06:22. > :06:25.may well have let out a sigh of relief. The figures are the first
:06:25. > :06:28.estimate of the third quarter of 2011 and they show that Britain's
:06:28. > :06:32.economy grew by 0.5%, a little better than the 0.3% many expected.
:06:32. > :06:36.However, to give this some context, growth in the last quarter was 0.1%,
:06:36. > :06:39.so some rise was expected. Ed Balls argued earlier in the week that
:06:39. > :06:42.growth would need to be 1.3% for the Government to meet its targets.
:06:42. > :06:46.What's more, separate figures out this morning show that the
:06:46. > :06:49.manufacturing sector shrank by the sharpest rate since June 2009, when
:06:49. > :06:51.Britain was still in recession. Speaking earlier this morning,
:06:51. > :07:01.however, the Chancellor, George Osborne, welcomed the growth
:07:01. > :07:03.
:07:03. > :07:06.figures. I think this is a positive step forward for the British
:07:06. > :07:10.commitment it's a better figure than some were expecting this week,
:07:10. > :07:14.given what's happening in the world. And, of course, the British economy
:07:15. > :07:19.has got a difficult journey to take from its debt-fuelled past. That's
:07:19. > :07:22.a journey made more difficult by the kind of problems you see today
:07:22. > :07:27.in the eurozone. But the important thing is today we took a step down
:07:27. > :07:31.that road the road will lead to recovery and prosperity. As the
:07:31. > :07:33.Chancellor said, across the Channel things aren't looking good.
:07:33. > :07:38.Yesterday the OECD downgraded its growth predictions for the eurozone
:07:38. > :07:42.in 2012 from 2% to 0.3%. And this morning the markets took a tumble
:07:42. > :07:45.as they digested the news that the Greek Government has decided to put
:07:45. > :07:48.its latest austerity plans to a referendum. Most opinion polls show
:07:48. > :07:55.a majority of Greeks don't support the measure, and if the vote is
:07:55. > :08:01.lost, it could derail the EU's recovery plans. With us now is the
:08:01. > :08:05.economist, Vicky Pryce, who is Greek herself. Welcome to you. From
:08:05. > :08:08.the Labour frontbench, Chris Leslie, and for the Conservatives, Matt
:08:08. > :08:14.Hancock, a former Bank of England economist and adviser to George
:08:14. > :08:19.Osborne. Welcome to you all. Vicky Pryce, can I begin with you? �0.5%,
:08:19. > :08:25.what can we take from that, what does it mean for the economy?
:08:25. > :08:28.of all it is better than expected, so that is good news. Everybody
:08:28. > :08:31.indicator we've seen in the last couple of months suggests that in
:08:31. > :08:36.fact we are moving into a slower pace of growth, with manufacturing
:08:36. > :08:40.being hit. And the services sector, which did so well in the last
:08:40. > :08:44.quarter it is now also slowing down. Europe is very significant for us.
:08:44. > :08:48.Manufacturing itself, which had done rather well because of Germany
:08:49. > :08:52.in particular, having become a locomotive for growth, is going to
:08:52. > :08:57.suffer, because Germany itself hurts now, showing signs of not
:08:57. > :09:01.growing at all. So a glimmer of positive news for the last three
:09:01. > :09:08.months but it is looking pretty grim for the next three? It does.
:09:08. > :09:11.We had recovered from the previous three months. We had a series of
:09:11. > :09:15.accidents like the bad weather, and then the Royal Wedding. The
:09:15. > :09:22.problems in Japan with the tsunami and the nuclear explosion that we
:09:22. > :09:26.had. There was a serious slowdown in demand for goods in the whole
:09:26. > :09:30.region really, because basically we were exporting quite a lot to them
:09:30. > :09:34.as well. That's recovered. It had to recover, but it is not
:09:34. > :09:38.sustainable, given what's going on around the world. The OECD figures,
:09:38. > :09:44.the forecasts now which are so low, suggest that the problems are going
:09:44. > :09:48.to be significant in 2012 as well. Matt Hancock, how do you tackle the
:09:48. > :09:51.criticism that the Government's policies aren't working enough
:09:51. > :09:55.simply because there is not enough growth in the system, there is no
:09:55. > :09:59.sign of it to come? I'm not sure that's the criticism. I agreed with
:09:59. > :10:03.almost everything that Vicky said. These figures are better than
:10:03. > :10:08.expected, so they are positive, and positive news in that sense. But of
:10:08. > :10:11.course the world economy is in a very difficult place. We learn that
:10:11. > :10:16.Italian Government bonds for instance, interest rates in Italy
:10:16. > :10:20.are now over 6%, which is crippling for them. I look at that and I
:10:20. > :10:26.think, thank goodness that isn't us. So, of course it is very difficult,
:10:26. > :10:31.but the best thing that we can do is make sure that we have the UK as
:10:31. > :10:35.a port of stability in this great crisis that's going on around the
:10:35. > :10:40.world rather than itself facing the wrath of the markets, who are after
:10:41. > :10:45.all the people that we borrowed all this money from. So Chris Leslie a
:10:45. > :10:51.port of stability? I worry there's a bit of complacency creeping in
:10:51. > :10:55.here. I think the idea that 0.5 % growth is a great triumph or even a
:10:55. > :10:58.sign of recovery moving forward, as the Chancellor seems to have
:10:58. > :11:01.sometimes suggest is completely out of touch with reality. The
:11:01. > :11:05.Government shouldn't be taking any comfort from these statistics.
:11:05. > :11:09.Particularly when all the for tents are in terms of manufacturing we're
:11:09. > :11:14.back into contraction, according to the PMI index today. The
:11:14. > :11:18.construction sector has fallen back by 4% in the last year. This is
:11:18. > :11:23.0.5% growth since the Chancellor's great Spending Review. The previous
:11:23. > :11:26.year before that, 2.6%. We really have had a recovery that was
:11:26. > :11:32.completely choked off by the decisions that the Chancellor has
:11:32. > :11:38.made. They are going to try to use this eurozone crisis as an alibi by
:11:38. > :11:42.the export situation doesn't stand up to that story. This is a move
:11:42. > :11:45.backwards because of the choices, the idealogical choices that the
:11:45. > :11:49.Chancellor of the Exchequer has made. A lot of the Treasury
:11:49. > :11:54.background today has been, look, we are in a global crisis, there was a
:11:54. > :11:58.crisis in the eurozone, we are not an island, the politics of John
:11:58. > :12:02.Dunn. How do you respond to that criticism? The policies the
:12:02. > :12:07.Government are mer suing have an impact on growth at the moment.
:12:07. > :12:11.This is an international very difficult situation. The idea that
:12:11. > :12:14.any of the tone of what I've been saying is anything other than that
:12:15. > :12:19.we are in this difficult situation and we are trying to get Britain
:12:19. > :12:25.through it. But what you don't do to get through it is to borrow more,
:12:25. > :12:29.when the problem is that we are in a debt crisis. So, it is, it is
:12:29. > :12:34.serious, it is difficult. What we need to do, I think actually, is on
:12:34. > :12:37.the growth side we need to do more to get growth growing. So for
:12:37. > :12:42.instance, let me give you an example. Make it easier to employ
:12:42. > :12:49.people, by changing from one year to two years the merd that you can
:12:49. > :12:52.employ them -- the period that you can employ them. You can make all
:12:52. > :12:55.the supply-side changes, but if demand isn't there it doesn't
:12:55. > :12:58.matter how much you change employment law. That's why I
:12:59. > :13:03.thought it was right that the Bank of England engaged in another round
:13:03. > :13:06.of qeezing to get money flowing. And we are going to go into credit
:13:06. > :13:10.easing, which is about getting that money into small businesses. The
:13:10. > :13:14.question for people like cries, you can't borrow your way out of a debt
:13:14. > :13:17.crisis. Are they going to support the other measures we are taking to
:13:17. > :13:23.get growth going? You can't cut yourself out of this situation
:13:23. > :13:27.either. Cut sog far and so fast as George Osborne has done has caused
:13:27. > :13:31.problems. It is important that you listen to the people of Britain,
:13:31. > :13:35.who are compass rated by this Government's failure to do anything
:13:35. > :13:39.on growth. The idea that removing employment rights is going to be
:13:39. > :13:46.the salvation for our economy is completely off the planet. It is
:13:46. > :13:52.time you started to take serious measures to boost growth, cutting
:13:52. > :13:56.VAT or putting a banker bonus levy. We've got a five-point plan. What
:13:56. > :14:00.do you make of this debate and are you in Oxfam getting some impact?
:14:00. > :14:10.What impact is it having on organisations like your known
:14:10. > :14:11.
:14:11. > :14:14.the moment, not too bad that. Comes -- not too bad. People are
:14:14. > :14:17.concerned and generous about people internationally. Our income from
:14:17. > :14:21.the public has stayed the same. The thing it does do is nobody will
:14:21. > :14:25.commit to the future. Everybody knows that something may happen to
:14:25. > :14:30.their job, so we don't get new people signing. What do you mean by
:14:30. > :14:34.that? We have 400,000 people who commit to giving to Oxfam regularly
:14:34. > :14:39.a fixed amount on direct debit. We can't get new people to sign up to
:14:39. > :14:43.that. They are too uncertain about what will happen to them in future.
:14:43. > :14:53.There is plenty of uncertainty about but for us people have
:14:53. > :14:56.
:14:56. > :15:01.Minimising that uncertainty is so important for the future. We need
:15:01. > :15:07.to minimise that rather than borrowing further. Talking of
:15:07. > :15:14.uncertainty, Vicki - a referendum in Greece. How much uncertainty in
:15:14. > :15:20.the short term has that placed over the whole eurozone packet? Huge.
:15:20. > :15:29.Everyone was shocked to hear that they have called for a referendum,
:15:29. > :15:32.and a very interested to hear why they should have done it. Whatever
:15:32. > :15:35.happens between now and when the second bail-out package comes in
:15:35. > :15:40.and then austerity measures for the next couple of years have to be
:15:40. > :15:46.passed, he needs to know he has the backing of his parliament.
:15:46. > :15:50.isn't the risk enormous? It is huge. First of all, we are not sure
:15:50. > :15:54.whether a referendum will take place. He has to pass a confidence
:15:54. > :15:59.vote first of all this week, which includes the referendum. If he
:15:59. > :16:03.doesn't pass that, we will have elections. And what that means is a
:16:03. > :16:08.huge uncertainty over the coming few months anyway. But in addition,
:16:08. > :16:14.what it has shown is that we cannot rely on the deal that has been
:16:14. > :16:18.agreed just a few days ago. It may all be reopened. The uncertainty
:16:18. > :16:23.about the situation is very worrying, and they think if we were
:16:23. > :16:26.genuinely worried, we would have a stronger economy that could
:16:26. > :16:31.withstand some of these international wobbles.
:16:31. > :16:35.Unfortunately, because we are so flatlining in terms of this
:16:35. > :16:40.negligible growth, any internal event destabilise the market and
:16:40. > :16:44.put our economy in jeopardy. This is why we have to have a strong and
:16:44. > :16:48.positive efforts, not just here at home for growth, but the Chancellor
:16:48. > :16:53.and a prime minister who will argue for growth and jobs in Europe. That
:16:53. > :16:57.was the missing factor and a lot of the euro-zone arrangements.
:16:57. > :17:00.Do you think as some Euro-sceptics in your party believe, that this is
:17:00. > :17:04.the moment, if a referendum takes place, that could see the
:17:04. > :17:09.withdrawal of Greece from the euro, and that could bring the whole
:17:09. > :17:13.house tumbling down? They are lobbying with glee about this.
:17:13. > :17:17.the referendum is past, that will give the Greek Prime Minister a
:17:17. > :17:22.strong mandate to drive through the changes to deal with their debts.
:17:22. > :17:28.At the end of the day, at the heart of this crisis, it is a debt crisis.
:17:28. > :17:31.In Greece, in Italy, across the eurozone and here in the UK. That
:17:31. > :17:39.is what the Greek Prime Minister is having a referendum, in order to
:17:39. > :17:44.get the mandate to deal with it. And the problem? Some people may
:17:44. > :17:48.say that a disorganised downfall would be a good idea. I think it is
:17:48. > :17:53.in Britain's economic interests that the euro is strong. Thank you
:17:53. > :17:57.very much indeed for joining us all here today. This debate is clearly
:17:57. > :18:01.one that is going to go on and on. This weekend, the Prime Minister
:18:01. > :18:06.was promising to get tough when it comes to which countries should get
:18:06. > :18:09.aid from Britain, and warned regimes with bad rates on human
:18:09. > :18:13.rights that they might not get cash. But Tory backbenchers are still
:18:13. > :18:15.worried about the size of the Budget at the Department for
:18:15. > :18:19.International Development. Adam has investigated.
:18:19. > :18:22.On a visit to Kenya, then Development Secretary Andrew
:18:22. > :18:27.Mitchell, the only Cabinet minister whose budget is protected from the
:18:27. > :18:37.cuts. It is part of a pledge to eventually bring spending on eight
:18:37. > :18:38.
:18:38. > :18:45.up to 0.7% of national income. -- spending on aid. It will go up from
:18:45. > :18:49.�5 billion a year in 2006 to �7.7 billion now. Earlier this year,
:18:49. > :18:54.there were a couple of big reviews, which saw the number of countries
:18:54. > :18:59.receiving aid from us from 43-27. Places like Russia and China came
:18:59. > :19:03.off the list. There has also been a change in priorities, with an
:19:04. > :19:09.emphasis on helping countries develop economic Klee, and helping
:19:09. > :19:15.places affected by conflict. This has raised concerns even among the
:19:15. > :19:22.Department's supporters. They are cutting back room staffed by one
:19:22. > :19:26.third. They are going into more fragile states, places like Somalia
:19:26. > :19:31.and the Democratic Republic of Congo, and therefore the dangers of
:19:32. > :19:35.corruption become greater. And the temptation will be to put more
:19:35. > :19:39.money into multinational organisations like the World Bank
:19:39. > :19:43.for Unesco, where the British taxpayer will not be able to
:19:43. > :19:45.monitor of where their money is going. At this weekend's
:19:45. > :19:50.Commonwealth summit, the Prime Minister repeated his message that
:19:50. > :19:54.aid is going to come with more strings, especially when it comes
:19:54. > :19:59.to human rights. But he has still got to convince some sceptical Tory
:19:59. > :20:04.backbenchers like Caroline Dinenage, who took these photos on a recent
:20:04. > :20:07.fact-finding trip to India. Some of the politicians we spoke to had a
:20:07. > :20:11.sense of almost arrogance about their position on the world stage
:20:11. > :20:15.at the moment. It is almost as if they are the pretty girl at school
:20:15. > :20:18.that everybody now suddenly wants to go out with, and almost an
:20:18. > :20:22.ignorance of the fact that this incredible economic position that
:20:22. > :20:27.they find themselves ent has been built on the back of a population
:20:27. > :20:31.for whom the average wage is a quarter even of China. And then
:20:31. > :20:37.there are those who are question whether any of our aid makes a
:20:37. > :20:40.difference. We are still stuck in what I think of as the 1984 mindset,
:20:40. > :20:45.where yes, there are starving people, and we have got to help and
:20:45. > :20:48.teach them and inoculate them, and we have to do stuff to them.
:20:48. > :20:55.Actually, it should be a partnership where they are doing it
:20:55. > :20:59.and we are helping to enable that. The aid pledge is completely non-
:20:59. > :21:09.negotiable for this government. Future arguments will be about how
:21:09. > :21:10.
:21:10. > :21:13.Adam Fleming reporting there. Barbara Stocking, why should the
:21:13. > :21:18.government protect it international aid budget more than its budgets
:21:18. > :21:21.for health or education? Defend the basic position. First of all, the
:21:21. > :21:25.government made the commitment, and this was a pledge given several
:21:25. > :21:30.years ago. I do think the British people think it is a good thing
:21:30. > :21:35.which governments do what they say. They don't always. No, but that is
:21:35. > :21:39.generally a good thing. The British people are generally committed to
:21:39. > :21:44.aid and to make sure that something happens for the poorest people. We
:21:44. > :21:48.see that in the way people come and give money to ask. But will that
:21:48. > :21:52.continue as the economy continues to stagnate? People have given
:21:52. > :21:55.money towards trying to make other people's lives better three times
:21:55. > :22:01.when they have been at their poorest, so I don't think that will
:22:01. > :22:06.be dramatically changed. It is in Britain's interest to do this. When
:22:06. > :22:14.I was over at the UN, it is amazing to see the influence that Britain
:22:14. > :22:17.has. Generally, Britain does this rather well. We have a lot of
:22:18. > :22:22.influence, and we will have a lot of influence in the countries where
:22:22. > :22:26.aid is currently going, because in future, they will be our markets.
:22:27. > :22:32.There are so many different reasons why it is good to stick to the aid
:22:32. > :22:37.commitment. And are you happy for aid to be used as a tool of policy
:22:37. > :22:44.to combat terrorism, create future markets, reduce instability?
:22:44. > :22:47.not directly. It must be directed at the poorest people, and the
:22:47. > :22:51.countries that came out of the bilateral review are in fact the
:22:51. > :22:54.countries which are the poorest and most unstable, and instability is
:22:54. > :23:00.actually one of the things that poor people are mostly concerned
:23:00. > :23:05.about in their countries. Being in an insecure country is just hell on
:23:06. > :23:10.wheels. We are watching that very carefully, because we are worried
:23:10. > :23:14.about whether it were just going to security. The UK NGOs are concerned
:23:14. > :23:18.about where this money is going, and we will continue to watch. But
:23:18. > :23:24.money that goes to countries like Yemen, Afghanistan and Pakistan,
:23:24. > :23:28.where there are huge numbers of poor people. And India, with its
:23:28. > :23:34.space programmes? India is interesting, because they have so
:23:34. > :23:39.many poor people, but can we use the aid tactically to make sure
:23:39. > :23:44.that it reaches the poor people? With Oxfam, we now have an Oxfam
:23:44. > :23:48.India. That is fantastic because it is saying to Indian middle classes,
:23:48. > :23:52.you have a responsibility for your own poor people. Very quickly,
:23:52. > :23:56.should British policy be discriminating, or should it
:23:56. > :24:06.withhold aid from countries that banner, sexuality? I think you have
:24:06. > :24:09.
:24:09. > :24:14.to be very careful with that. ban homosexuality? If you go to
:24:14. > :24:17.local NGOs and onwards, you don't have to pull out just because you
:24:17. > :24:21.don't approve of the government, you can take different steps. We
:24:21. > :24:25.would be nervous about taking money away from the poorest countries
:24:25. > :24:29.because their governments don't have policies we agree with.
:24:29. > :24:34.you detect no change in government policy on this? We think they will
:24:34. > :24:38.stay committed, and we will hold them to that. Thank you very much.
:24:38. > :24:41.Have one organisation making quite a big difference to how Parliament
:24:41. > :24:46.works is the backbench business committee. The green benches were
:24:46. > :24:49.packed as huge numbers of Conservative MPs defied David
:24:49. > :24:52.Cameron's pleas not to vote for a referendum on our relationship with
:24:52. > :24:56.the European Union. That came about because the backbench business
:24:56. > :24:59.committee made it happen. Today, they will be considering whether or
:24:59. > :25:05.not to have a similar debate about the extradition of British citizens
:25:05. > :25:09.to face trial in foreign countries. 1 K is often cited is that of Gary
:25:09. > :25:16.McKinnon, who suffers from an autistic spectrum disorder. He
:25:16. > :25:20.broke into an American computer network and claims he was just
:25:20. > :25:27.looking for UFOs. His mother claims he would not survive the prison
:25:27. > :25:32.system. The US wants him extradited. Dominic Raab is pushing for this
:25:32. > :25:36.debate. Why do you think the extradition system is unfair?
:25:36. > :25:46.had a big drive for enhanced Corporation on counter-terrorism
:25:46. > :25:48.
:25:48. > :25:55.after 911. I think the pendulum has swung too far the other way. Also
:25:55. > :25:57.under the European arrest warrant, we have fast track extraditions
:25:57. > :26:00.tainted with evidence of spurious grounds. We need to rebalance, put
:26:00. > :26:05.in a bit more common sense, and basic judicial checks and
:26:05. > :26:10.safeguards. I think it is important to have this debate, because it is
:26:10. > :26:13.the job of Parliament to protect British standards of justice.
:26:13. > :26:22.former Court of Appeal judge, Sir Scott Baker, came to a different
:26:22. > :26:27.conclusion, and he said the system was adequate. Yes, and they read
:26:27. > :26:31.all 486 pages of his report. There were a few flaws in it. They ducked
:26:31. > :26:35.the big issues. Take the Michael Turner case, the case of fast-track
:26:35. > :26:40.extradition, not for a prosecution but a police investigation. That is
:26:40. > :26:44.the kind of case that shouldn't be happening. The Baker report denies
:26:44. > :26:48.it happens, and Michael Turner's case is confined to a single
:26:48. > :26:53.footnote in the report. The second major flaw in the report is that
:26:53. > :26:57.they didn't interview any of the victims, and therefore it is that
:26:57. > :27:00.of shorn of all human dimension. If you are subject of this extradition
:27:00. > :27:06.and you are innocent, it turned your life upside down. What impact
:27:06. > :27:09.you think a debate would have? have the Joint Committee on Human
:27:09. > :27:13.Rights report as well. Lawyers can give their legal opinion. But I
:27:13. > :27:17.think ultimately it is up to elected lawmakers to stand up our
:27:18. > :27:21.justice system and our citizens and to have their voice and they say
:27:21. > :27:26.before the government response than this. How much support you think
:27:26. > :27:35.you will get? At the moment, we have cross-party support. So Ming
:27:35. > :27:38.Campbell, how Francis, -- Sir Menzies Campbell. Particularly
:27:38. > :27:42.constituency MPs for constituents who have suffered under the
:27:43. > :27:46.European arrest warrant. Barbara, due think this new development of
:27:46. > :27:51.the backbench business committee and more backbench power is a good
:27:51. > :27:56.thing? Definitely. The more that people's voice can be heard, and
:27:56. > :28:04.that is a better way of more people being engaged in the debate.
:28:04. > :28:06.Lobbyists feeding into the debate? Yes, we do, and we raised full
:28:06. > :28:10.parliamentary sittings. But that wider view of what the British
:28:10. > :28:14.people are wanting and the debates they want to have held has got to
:28:14. > :28:18.be good for democracy. And in the wake of expenses and the
:28:18. > :28:23.downgrading of Parliament, you think it is a good thing?
:28:23. > :28:26.Definitely. There is a bigger issue here as well. We tend to assume
:28:26. > :28:31.that politicians are all the same, but there is a difference between
:28:31. > :28:36.Parliament and legislature, and the executive. There is also my job as
:28:36. > :28:39.a backbencher and a lawmaker to hold the government to account and
:28:39. > :28:44.scrutinise policy. Thank you both very much for being with us here