:00:29. > :00:33.Afternoon folks, welcome to the Daily Politics. Confusion and chaos
:00:33. > :00:37.are the only ways to describe the extraordinary events surrounding
:00:37. > :00:42.the G20 summit in the south of France. It's all down to the Greeks.
:00:42. > :00:45.As we come on air the Greek cabinet is in another emergency session.
:00:45. > :00:50.Prime Minister Papandreou has already lost his parliamentary
:00:50. > :00:53.majority. Coe be about to lose his job. It looks like he's lost his
:00:53. > :00:59.plan for a referendum and there is a confidence vote to lose tomorrow.
:00:59. > :01:04.No wonder the G20 is left scratching its head back in Cannes.
:01:04. > :01:09.World leaders thought the G20 summit would rubber stamp the euro
:01:09. > :01:12.don't deal agreed last week. Now there's nothing to endorse, bar the
:01:12. > :01:15.growing realisation that if Greece defaults Europe and America are
:01:15. > :01:19.heading back into recession. We will be hearing from our
:01:19. > :01:22.correspondents in Cannes and Athens and talking to two former British
:01:23. > :01:27.Chancellors, Alistair Darling, and Nigel Lawson.
:01:27. > :01:31.And how is the crisis changing the landscape of British politics?
:01:31. > :01:40.Should Conservatives who want out of Europe altogether join the UK
:01:40. > :01:44.Independence Party? All that coming up. With us for the
:01:44. > :01:48.duration former Conservative politician who recently defected to
:01:48. > :01:52.UKIP, Alexander Hesketh, twobg the programme. Events are moving
:01:52. > :01:56.quickly this morning as world lieders set out for the -- leaders
:01:56. > :01:59.set out for the G20 in Cannes expecting to endorse the Greek
:01:59. > :02:07.bail-out and the rest of the plan that was supposed to save the
:02:07. > :02:11.eurozone. But that plan has unravelled before the ink was dry,
:02:11. > :02:16.thanks to various shenanigans emanating from Athens. As things
:02:16. > :02:23.stand, no one in the G20 knows if Greece is staying in or out of the
:02:23. > :02:26.euro. Backs or rejects the bail-out, or even has an operating Government.
:02:26. > :02:31.The Greek Prime Minister, George Papandreou, has has just announced
:02:31. > :02:37.that he as offered his resignation to the Greek cabinet. We don't know
:02:37. > :02:41.what the response is yet, but he is clearly hanging on to his job by
:02:41. > :02:46.his fingernails. He has lost his majority, the support of Ministers,
:02:46. > :02:52.including his ambitious deputy, the referendum plan is in tatters. He
:02:53. > :03:00.faces a confidence vote in 24 hours. We will keep I posted -- on all the
:03:00. > :03:04.news as it happens. Th President Obama and the G20 host President
:03:04. > :03:07.Sarkozy made the usual pleasantries this morning and had a joke about
:03:07. > :03:11.the recent birth of the French President's daughter but it was
:03:11. > :03:16.clear neither had a clue about what to do next. We are going to flesh
:03:16. > :03:21.out more details about how the plan will be fully and decisively
:03:21. > :03:26.implemented. We also discussed the situation in Greece and how we can
:03:26. > :03:30.work to help resolve that situation, as well. The United States will
:03:30. > :03:37.continue to be a partner with the Europeans to resolve these
:03:37. > :03:40.challenges. TRANSLATION: We need leadership of Barack Obama,
:03:40. > :03:46.we need the solidarity and support of the United States of America and
:03:46. > :03:50.we need a joint, common analysis as to the way we can put the world
:03:50. > :03:56.back on the path of growth and stability.
:03:56. > :04:00.Now, let me go through this breaking news that we are getting.
:04:00. > :04:04.Reuters reporting he hasn't resigned and doesn't intend to, but
:04:04. > :04:07.also reports that he may at least have offered his resignation to the
:04:07. > :04:13.Greek cabinet. When we get clarification of that we will bring
:04:13. > :04:17.you up to speed. Alexander Hesketh, this is a remarkable G20, because
:04:18. > :04:21.normally these summits are planned in advance, the draft is usually
:04:21. > :04:28.written before they get there. It's all falling apart, what do they do
:04:28. > :04:32.next? I mean, this has happened before and was totally predictable,
:04:32. > :04:36.because the history books are full of examples of where you try and
:04:36. > :04:40.have a currency union without having a political union. It's
:04:40. > :04:44.doomed from the kick-off. That's why the Germans and French are now
:04:44. > :04:46.realising they have to have a fiscal union. They're going to have
:04:46. > :04:51.a fiscal union and it's going to cost a great deal of money if
:04:51. > :04:57.they're not careful. Will they have a fiscal union that will include
:04:57. > :05:00.all 17 of the eurozone members. You would have to bet any fiscal union
:05:00. > :05:05.is not going to include Greece now? My bet is that they will
:05:05. > :05:09.desperately try and hold the whole thing together with - I mean, July
:05:09. > :05:14.21st was a complete fraud. The last meeting was a complete fraud in
:05:14. > :05:17.terms of if you actually looked at in the cold light of day and
:05:17. > :05:24.outside the Brussels bubble and they'll try and keep it together
:05:24. > :05:27.because in a sense France ogt to be the leader of club med and the
:05:27. > :05:31.Germans should lead a group if they want to stay in the euro in
:05:32. > :05:35.northern Europe. I don't see the French allowing... I agree, which
:05:35. > :05:38.is why the whole thing is doomed. Let me bring you up to date, we are
:05:38. > :05:42.getting more clarification of what's happening in Athens. It
:05:42. > :05:45.seems the Greek Prime Minister, Mr Papandreou, hasn't just offered his
:05:45. > :05:53.resignation to the cabinet, he is actually going to see the Greek
:05:53. > :05:56.President to offer his resignation to the President. It's largely an
:05:56. > :06:00.honorary title. He is going to do this, he hopes as a prelude to
:06:00. > :06:04.forming what's been called a Government of national unity. That
:06:04. > :06:08.may sound sensible, the problem is that the opposition, the main
:06:08. > :06:13.centre-right opposition in Greece is totally opposed to the bail-out
:06:13. > :06:16.that Mr Papandreou is proposing and wanted to have a referendum on. So
:06:16. > :06:20.whether there would be much unity in that Government is something
:06:20. > :06:25.that we will fine out in the days - - fine out in the days ahead. The
:06:25. > :06:29.stakes for today's G20 summit couldn't be higher, at the moment
:06:29. > :06:33.they're spectators at the feast watching Greeks not bearing gifts.
:06:33. > :06:36.What can we expect? It's changing all the time.
:06:36. > :06:42.President Sarkozy who is hosting today's summit had hoped it would
:06:42. > :06:45.be a relaxed and glamorous affair on the French Riviera, where they
:06:45. > :06:49.presented the deal thrashed out last week to the rest of the world.
:06:49. > :06:52.Instead it's turned into a big fat Greek nightmare. The Greek Prime
:06:52. > :06:57.Minister's decision to hold a referendum on the rescue package is
:06:57. > :07:01.set to dominate the discussions and now we learn Mr Papandreou will go
:07:01. > :07:04.to the Greek President to offer his resignation. This morning he lost
:07:04. > :07:07.his majority in parliament, which doesn't bode well for his
:07:07. > :07:11.confidence vote tomorrow. Then there's the referendum itself,
:07:11. > :07:14.thought to be held on December 4th. Last night the Greek leader had a
:07:15. > :07:18.difficult meeting with President Sarkozy of France and Chancellor
:07:18. > :07:26.Merkel of Germany, where they warned him Greece's future in the
:07:26. > :07:33.eurozone was at stake. Mr Sarkozy said later:
:07:33. > :07:37.The two leaders have said the next bail-out cheque will be withheld.
:07:37. > :07:41.President Sarkozy was hoping the meeting would allow him to lobby
:07:41. > :07:44.the Chinese President to contribute to the European financial stability
:07:44. > :07:48.fund, designed to protect countries in the eurozone from collapsing.
:07:48. > :07:52.But they too have indicated they need more clarity on the situation
:07:52. > :07:55.in Greece. So, where does this leave David Cameron? Last night the
:07:55. > :07:59.British Government said they're prepared to give more money to the
:07:59. > :08:03.IMF, which could, in turn, could could towards helping struggling
:08:03. > :08:06.eurozone countries, something that won't go down too well with his own
:08:06. > :08:11.back backbenchers. I am joined by our correspondent Christian Fraser
:08:11. > :08:15.at the G20 meeting in Cannes. We have had the spectacle of the Greek
:08:15. > :08:19.Prime Minister being summoned by the leaders of France and Germany,
:08:19. > :08:25.to explain himself. Now we hear he is off to see the President to
:08:25. > :08:27.perhaps offer his resignation. It's chaos, isn't it? There must be
:08:28. > :08:33.total bewilderment among the G20 leaders gathering here. They come
:08:33. > :08:36.to talk about the global economy and how to resurge to - to create
:08:36. > :08:39.resurgence in the economy and they're focusing on one of the
:08:39. > :08:42.smaller members of the eurozone, Greece. What we are hearing from
:08:42. > :08:46.Athens in the last few minutes is that the Prime Minister has in fact
:08:46. > :08:49.offered - is going to offer his resignation to the Greek President.
:08:49. > :08:54.There will be a Government of national unity that will be given
:08:54. > :08:57.powers to negotiate with creditors and they will move, instead of a
:08:57. > :09:02.vote of confidence and a referendum, towards elections in the short-term,
:09:02. > :09:06.probably within around four weeks. Now, as Andrew was saying, that
:09:06. > :09:08.does create all sorts of other problems because the opposition,
:09:08. > :09:13.presumably would be included in this Government, has already
:09:13. > :09:18.indicated that it wants to renegotiate the bail-out package
:09:18. > :09:24.that is it - that's been offered to Greece and the German Chancellor
:09:24. > :09:28.has already made it abunantly clear it's not up for renegotiation.
:09:28. > :09:32.What's come out of the confirmss over the past 24 hours is something
:09:32. > :09:35.new and that's that the spectre of Greece leaving the eurozone is very
:09:35. > :09:39.much on the table. And that begs questions in turn, how do you do
:09:39. > :09:42.that? What mechanism is there for one of these members to leave the
:09:42. > :09:48.eurozone? Can they be forced to leave? Can Greece go back to the
:09:48. > :09:53.drachma? You can forgive the be-- bewilderment of other leaders here
:09:53. > :09:56.who have been invited to try to invest in this new expanded bail-
:09:56. > :10:01.out fund, they must be scratching their heads asking what do you want
:10:01. > :10:04.to us invest in? Greece perhaps leaving the eurozone, the
:10:04. > :10:08.Commission has put out a notice saying there is no mechanism for
:10:08. > :10:12.that, if you leave, you have to leave the the European Union, too.
:10:12. > :10:15.If you are saying Angela Merkel has anticipated what is going to happen
:10:15. > :10:18.and says there is is going to be no further negotiation, do you think
:10:18. > :10:21.that threat will stand, bearing in mind that will harm countries like
:10:21. > :10:25.Germany if there is a disorderly default or do you think the Germans
:10:25. > :10:28.and French could be pushed into perhaps either renegotiating or
:10:28. > :10:34.giving the money without the bail- out fund or referendum on it to say
:10:34. > :10:37.yes in Greece? Well, I think it comes down to domestic politics at
:10:37. > :10:41.the end of the day. The French have been terrified, not particularly
:10:41. > :10:45.about Greece in isolation, but the knock-on effect to the likes of
:10:45. > :10:49.Spain and Italy. There are two concerns this raises, first of all,
:10:49. > :10:53.the idea of giving the people a referendum, while it might be
:10:53. > :10:56.applauded in some quarters as a step towards democracy, on issues
:10:56. > :11:00.after all that will affect a generation for perhaps up to ten
:11:01. > :11:08.years, it does then open the door to other countries like Italy who
:11:08. > :11:12.also have a Government of disunity. We have seen one of the partners of
:11:12. > :11:16.Mr Berlusconi's coalition are already digging their heels in,
:11:16. > :11:19.what is is to stop them saying how come the Greeks get a decision on
:11:19. > :11:22.this and we don't? The second problem is the Germans have
:11:22. > :11:27.obviously, and we did see Angela Merkel taking the lead again last
:11:27. > :11:30.night, they are obviously saying now that we can't go on like this
:11:30. > :11:34.indefinitely. Greece has to make a decision, whether it's in or it's
:11:34. > :11:38.out. Whatever the wording of the referendum is, whatever the wording
:11:38. > :11:42.they would have decided for this referendum, it boils down to this:
:11:42. > :11:47.Is Greece in or out? That's further than the French would have wanted
:11:47. > :11:52.to go but Angela Merkel is pushing it in that direction. Thank you.
:11:52. > :11:56.It's unclear what the leaders can do now, there is a nice little
:11:56. > :12:03.restaurant to the left of our correspondent's shoulder there.
:12:03. > :12:07.They might as well have a walk along there and enjoy themselves.
:12:07. > :12:11.The breaking news, the Greek Prime Minister, Mr Papandreou, is
:12:11. > :12:16.planning to stand down. He is handing in his resignation to the
:12:16. > :12:19.Greek President within the next 30 minutes. It looks like a new
:12:19. > :12:29.coalition, a so-called Government of national unity is going to be
:12:29. > :12:31.
:12:31. > :12:34.formed under a former governor of the bank of Greece. At this time a
:12:34. > :12:38.week ago we were told that there was a deal to bail out Greece and
:12:38. > :12:42.save the euro. Some of us doubted it, we spoke to two former
:12:42. > :12:48.Chancellors about where we went from here. They were pretty sniffy
:12:48. > :12:54.about the whole affair. One week on the deal looks near to collapse,
:12:54. > :12:59.their scepticism looks vindicated. We thought we better reassemble the
:12:59. > :13:04.team, I speak of messers Darling and Lawson, to discuss again where
:13:04. > :13:08.do we go from here? Alistair Darling, are we on the brink of a
:13:08. > :13:13.Greek departure from the eurozone? It's very difficult for them to
:13:13. > :13:20.stay, I am not an expert on Greek politics pwau Government of
:13:20. > :13:25.national aou -- unity does sound odd, it may take some skill to hold
:13:25. > :13:30.something together. The real problem which I set out last week
:13:30. > :13:34.is that the Greek fix was never going to work. Even if it had
:13:34. > :13:37.worked, it was still going to be left with a debt of 120% of its GDP,
:13:37. > :13:41.which that doesn't work. So the deal they were being offered and
:13:41. > :13:45.asked to implement was never going to work and should never have been
:13:45. > :13:49.on the table last week. Never mind the other two legs of what they did
:13:49. > :13:52.last week, the Greek capitalisation of European banks which is now
:13:52. > :13:56.urgent, because if you talk about disorderly default there will be
:13:56. > :14:00.default in the Greek banks which will come back to other European
:14:00. > :14:03.banks and the rescue fund is not there. As you said at Prime
:14:03. > :14:08.Ministers questions yesterday, it's a fund that doesn't exist.
:14:08. > :14:13.doesn't exist and the rescue may be needed very, very shortly. I think
:14:14. > :14:16.- I hope the G20 is not sitting at the side of the Mediterranean
:14:16. > :14:20.waiting for the Greeks to come back. They have to look at what was
:14:20. > :14:25.agreed last week, because it won't work and I said it would unravel
:14:25. > :14:29.and it has. What they also need to do, which is urgent, is to look at
:14:29. > :14:32.policies that will get growth back into the system, because as long as
:14:32. > :14:37.we have this lack of growth, these problems are going to get worse and
:14:37. > :14:41.worse. It's the lack of policy for growth, the G20 could do that and
:14:41. > :14:48.it should meet with the same urgency and purpose it did two
:14:48. > :14:54.years ago. The economy is smaller now. And by the way, without
:14:54. > :14:57.wishing to hog the programme, if Greece does get tipped out of the
:14:57. > :15:00.euro, don't let's kid ourselves that's going to sort the problem
:15:00. > :15:10.out. It's not in our interests to have a country cast adrift with all
:15:10. > :15:11.
:15:11. > :15:15.the things that could go wrong, not The fact is, even before Mr
:15:15. > :15:18.Papandreou announced he wanted a referendum, the deal that Alastair
:15:18. > :15:23.was talking about was already falling apart. The Italians were
:15:23. > :15:27.having to pay much higher yields on their debt because the bond markets
:15:27. > :15:32.didn't believe the deal. Let's isolate the three different strands.
:15:32. > :15:37.There is first of all the eurozone itself, which is a completely
:15:37. > :15:42.flawed construct, European monetary union, it cannot work. I predicted
:15:42. > :15:47.this. I made a big speech at Chatham House when I was Chancellor
:15:47. > :15:51.in 1989 predicting precisely this. Plenty of others saw this too.
:15:51. > :15:56.Greece is clearly going to fall out of the eurozone... You think it is
:15:56. > :16:00.as clear as that? Yes, I do, quite soon. The others will struggle on
:16:00. > :16:07.for quite some time, but it is fundamentally flawed. So that's
:16:07. > :16:10.that. Alastair is right that growth is important, but there is no quick
:16:10. > :16:14.growth injection you can produce. You have to say, what is the
:16:14. > :16:19.immediate problem. The immediate problem is the threat of a European
:16:19. > :16:22.and to some extent global banking crises as a result of this severely
:16:22. > :16:29.impaired sovereign debt that's around the place. Therefore the
:16:29. > :16:32.banking crisis has to be addressed in two ways. I think Europe as such
:16:32. > :16:36.is not going to be able to play a significant part. There are two
:16:36. > :16:41.levels. First of all, each nation, each member state, just like
:16:41. > :16:46.Britain had to address its own banking problems with when it had
:16:46. > :16:49.banking problems. Which Alistair Darling was involved in. Absolutely.
:16:49. > :16:54.The authorities there are going to have to address the problem of
:16:54. > :16:57.their ropey, dodgy banks, and see what needs to be done and on what
:16:57. > :17:01.terms. Then there's a case for a global approach. I think the
:17:01. > :17:05.British Government is absolutely right to do it through the IMF. A
:17:05. > :17:09.further advantage of doing it through the IMF, I think if China
:17:09. > :17:12.is going to be able to allowed greater voting rights within the
:17:12. > :17:16.IMF which I deserves to have because of the strength of its
:17:16. > :17:20.economy, I think you will get Chinese money only in that way will
:17:20. > :17:25.you get Chinese money and resources devoted to solving the global
:17:25. > :17:30.problem. So I think those are the three strands. That's way ahead.
:17:30. > :17:34.Alistair Darling, you've done a bit of G20ing in your time. You were
:17:34. > :17:39.involved in the big summit in London. If you were there today in
:17:39. > :17:44.Cannes, given the events that are playing out in Athens, what would
:17:44. > :17:47.you do? Well, I think there are two things I would do. Firstly, the G20
:17:47. > :17:51.does need to do everything it can to bring every influence to bear to
:17:51. > :17:54.try to get the eurozone countries to sort out their immediate
:17:55. > :17:59.problems. I agree with Nigel about the recapitalisation. It can only
:17:59. > :18:05.do that nationally. No-one else can do that. That's the first thing. I
:18:05. > :18:09.also agree with him that there isn't a quick fix for growth 2009,
:18:09. > :18:14.when countries agreed to do whatever it took to stop recession
:18:14. > :18:18.becoming depression by putting stimulus into their economies, even
:18:18. > :18:25.a week before it wasn't clear they would agree to that. But because
:18:25. > :18:29.they were scared stiff about the confesss -- about the consequences,
:18:29. > :18:33.they acted. You now have the risk of countries defaulting. You have a
:18:33. > :18:37.risk of that spilling outweigh beyond Europe. So there is every
:18:37. > :18:40.interest in the world here in getting, in making sure that we
:18:40. > :18:44.address some of the big imbalances, the China problem, the American
:18:44. > :18:49.problem, but also that countries act together. On their own, yes
:18:49. > :18:53.they can do some things, but they need to act together, otherwise
:18:53. > :18:57.they'll be dragged along in the wake of events. Nigel Lawson, you
:18:57. > :19:02.said there's a danger to European banks if the national Government
:19:02. > :19:06.have to act. It seems to me the biggest danger is the Italian
:19:06. > :19:11.system, as they buy most of the Italian bonds. And the Italian
:19:11. > :19:14.Government is in no shape to recapitalise Italian banks.
:19:14. > :19:18.Italian Central Bank is still quite a strong institution, even though
:19:18. > :19:23.the Italian Government is very, very rocky. I think that the
:19:23. > :19:29.Italians ought to be able to manage this. We are talking, the Italian
:19:29. > :19:34.political situation will clearly have to be resolved soon. Silvio
:19:34. > :19:38.Berlusconi can't go on like he is. That has got to be resolved. Buying
:19:38. > :19:46.time is an important element in all of these sorts of problems. One of
:19:46. > :19:52.the first problems I was dealing with in 1983 was the Latin America
:19:52. > :19:56.sovereign debt crisis. Hit many similarities to this. -- it had. We
:19:56. > :20:00.solved it satisfactorily through the IMF, buying time. That's what
:20:01. > :20:05.you have to do. And through an Argentinian default as well. Yes.
:20:05. > :20:09.Countries do default and they come back from the grave, as it were.
:20:09. > :20:16.Only Honduras and Ecuador has defaulted more than Greece. Greece
:20:17. > :20:26.has got previous on this. It is not unusual for it to happen. Is UKIP a
:20:27. > :20:27.
:20:27. > :20:30.bit like Madame Lafarge as you do your knitting as the tumbrils roll?
:20:30. > :20:34.Every working family in this country is going to be affected by.
:20:34. > :20:40.This we have an interest in trying to avoid this ever happening again?
:20:40. > :20:45.That's why we do not wish to be involved within Europe. Of a way
:20:45. > :20:49.and manner that's conducted way. That's why we have a great interest.
:20:49. > :20:54.Finally, ex-Charles, if the eurozone is going to move towards
:20:54. > :20:59.more fiscal integration, which is the policy of this Government as
:20:59. > :21:02.well as Her Majesty's opposition, and is the policy of Mrs Merkel and
:21:02. > :21:07.Nicolas Sarkozy, will it be an integration of the 17 or even the
:21:07. > :21:13.16, or will it be a smaller eurozone that does that? My guess
:21:13. > :21:17.is that a lot of uncertainty that it will be a smaller unit. There is
:21:17. > :21:22.such a disparity between Germany on the one side and if you assume
:21:22. > :21:27.Greece is out of it. One point that Nigel made, an important one, what
:21:27. > :21:31.is desperately needed is time. You can't reorder the eurozone within
:21:31. > :21:38.days but they won't get that time unless they deal with the problems
:21:38. > :21:43.that were there last week. On a smaller eurozone? They may try that,
:21:43. > :21:46.but I don't think the people s even of the smaller part, the inner core,
:21:46. > :21:51.I don't think they really want a full political union. So the thing
:21:51. > :21:57.is not going to make sense even at that level. Gentlemen, we'll leave
:21:57. > :22:01.it there, but don't go too far away. We may need to make a block booking
:22:01. > :22:04.for you. Remember Harold Wilson said a week is a long time in
:22:04. > :22:09.politics? It is certainly a long time in eurozone politics! An hour
:22:09. > :22:15.is a long time in Greek politics! Gentlemen, former Charles, thank
:22:15. > :22:18.you. -- Chancellors, thank you.
:22:18. > :22:21.Now, the Greek Prime Minister isn't the only European leader with his
:22:21. > :22:24.own domestic political problems. There's no prospect of him losing
:22:24. > :22:27.his job, of course, but you'll remember last week that 81 of David
:22:27. > :22:30.Cameron's MPs defied him and voted in favour of a referendum on
:22:30. > :22:33.Britain's relationship with Europe. We decided to take a look back
:22:33. > :22:43.through the archives and began to wonder - can you guess what these
:22:43. > :22:43.
:22:43. > :23:24.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 41 seconds
:23:24. > :23:28.Yes, they were all former Conservative Party members who have
:23:28. > :23:31.now joined UKIP. One of them was a young Lord Hesketh, our guest of
:23:31. > :23:35.the day here, who joined UKIP last month. Well, we're joined now by
:23:35. > :23:41.Andrea Leadsom, a Conservative MP and one of the 81 rebels who defied
:23:41. > :23:45.the party leadership last week. Thank you for joining us. Lord
:23:45. > :23:48.Heskey, you have made this radical switch after a long history with
:23:48. > :23:54.the Conservative Party. What's wrong with the Tory Party? I think
:23:54. > :23:57.that all political parties over the European issue have become
:23:57. > :24:02.completely controlled by the Civil Service. That's a combination of
:24:02. > :24:05.the Civil Service in this country and the Civil Service in Brussels.
:24:05. > :24:10.And the establishment that goes with that. It is not just the civil
:24:10. > :24:14.servants. But Europe is hard-wired into the system. But if you've got
:24:14. > :24:19.a Prime Minister like David Cameron, who reputedly was very Euro-sceptic,
:24:19. > :24:23.surely it is down to the leadership of the party? I think the actions
:24:23. > :24:27.of Andrea and 81 people in the House of Commons last week shows
:24:27. > :24:31.that there's a distinct sense of unease about whether or not whoever
:24:31. > :24:36.is running the House of Commons is actually able to deliver. This is
:24:36. > :24:40.the real problem. This is the actuallity of it, which is for
:24:40. > :24:43.instance I saw one Tory MP once weekend, wisely, in my opinion,
:24:43. > :24:50.suggesting that we should immediately get rid of the UK
:24:50. > :24:55.ambassador in Brussels, who goes under the winning name of Akreb.
:24:55. > :25:05.Unusual to say the least! actually I would put a politician
:25:05. > :25:07.
:25:07. > :25:13.in there. This is about politics, not about the grand project which
:25:13. > :25:19.Giscard d'Estaing would have called it. But your main aim is to have a
:25:19. > :25:23.referendum isn't it? And surely the best and only likely way of making
:25:23. > :25:27.it that happen is to work through the Conservative Party isn't it?
:25:27. > :25:33.disagreement I don't think you spend 50 years with the Tory Party
:25:33. > :25:39.and make the jump that I made unless you've come to the collusion
:25:39. > :25:45.that -- conclusion that all political parties, for want of a
:25:45. > :25:51.better word, set-up, are incapable of dealing wit. You might as well
:25:51. > :25:56.jump ship and join UKIP? Not at all. I think the Government are doing an
:25:56. > :26:01.excellent job. At what? For example ensuring Britain doesn't remain a
:26:01. > :26:04.part of the bail-out mechanism after 2013. Looking after British
:26:04. > :26:07.interests. David Cameron, William Hague and George Osborne have
:26:07. > :26:11.spoken strongly about the need to renegotiate powers in Britain's
:26:11. > :26:15.best interests. I'm certainly working with a wide range of
:26:15. > :26:19.colleagues across the party to look at ways that we can renegotiate
:26:19. > :26:22.powers. But then, as Lord Hesketh said, he spent all this time in the
:26:22. > :26:27.Conservative Party, but none of these things have come to fruition.
:26:27. > :26:30.There is no reliable evidence to say any of those power would be
:26:30. > :26:35.repatriated, and you won't get that referendum. But things have changed
:26:35. > :26:38.in the last week, they've certainly changed in the last couple of years.
:26:38. > :26:43.And I remain incredibly hopefully and positive that this Government
:26:43. > :26:47.is going to make that difference. In terms of having a referendum?
:26:47. > :26:50.They've already ruled that out and your colleagues have argued this is
:26:50. > :26:53.the best opportune time to have a referendum to renegotiate Britain's
:26:53. > :26:57.relationship with Europe. Very a slightly different take on it. The
:26:58. > :27:01.point about the vote last week, for me at least. The key thing is that
:27:01. > :27:05.the British people should have their say at some point. This
:27:05. > :27:08.wasn't about a lack of confidence in the Government. This was a point
:27:08. > :27:14.about democracy, that people have waited since 1975 to have a further
:27:14. > :27:18.say on the EU. It is that alone that made me decide to vote for a
:27:18. > :27:22.referendum. That is not to say that I think the Government is doing the
:27:22. > :27:26.right thing in moving towards a situation that looks after
:27:26. > :27:34.Britain's interests in the EU. you worried that any of your
:27:34. > :27:37.colleagues will leave the party and join UKIP? Not at all. There are a
:27:37. > :27:45.group of people in the Conservative Party who believe Britain would be
:27:45. > :27:51.better outside of the EU. My straw poll of the 20 is 10 intake, we are
:27:51. > :27:54.a Euro-sceptic bunch but we don't favour getting out altogether.
:27:54. > :28:00.Doesn't that represent the majority view, regoegs yes, but not pulling
:28:00. > :28:03.out of the EU altogether? I think what Andrea said was interesting.
:28:03. > :28:08.She is talking about the parliamentary party. I don't expect
:28:08. > :28:13.to see many people coming out of the parliamentary party, if any.
:28:13. > :28:17.Peter Oborne in today's Telegraph, he says we are going as a political
:28:17. > :28:21.party. We are not just a single- issue party. We had a manifesto at
:28:21. > :28:26.the last election and the reality is that more and more people are
:28:26. > :28:31.coming to us. Can I give you two examples. Briefly. One is the Tobin
:28:31. > :28:35.tax. The response we've had from the City in the last two weeks is
:28:35. > :28:38.simply breathtaking. Now, just time to put you out of
:28:38. > :28:41.your misery and give you the answer to yesterday's Guess The Year
:28:41. > :28:50.competition. 1960 was the year. Alexander, pick a winner. J reg
:28:50. > :28:53.began from Peterborough. -- J Regan.
:28:53. > :28:56.I'm back here tonight on This Week with Alastair Campbell and Michael