09/11/2011

:00:23. > :00:26.Morning, folks, this is the Daily Politics. Is Theresa May losing

:00:26. > :00:30.control of Passport Control? The pressure is still firmly on the

:00:30. > :00:35.Home Secretary today. Last night the head of the UK Border Force

:00:35. > :00:39.quit claiming Mrs May had misled Parliament. He's also mounting a

:00:39. > :00:44.claim for constructive dismissal. The Home Secretary is sticking to

:00:44. > :00:47.her guns. The Government is facing a tough day in Parliament today

:00:47. > :00:53.starting with Prime Minister's Questions. We will have all the

:00:53. > :00:58.action live at midday. The party's over. Silvio Berlusconi

:00:58. > :01:02.says he will step down. But only after he's pushed through economic

:01:02. > :01:06.reforms. What next for Italy and for the eurozone?

:01:06. > :01:10.Should you, me, every other taxpayer help political parties

:01:10. > :01:15.with their fund-raising? We speak to a Liberal Democrat peer who

:01:15. > :01:20.thinks state-funding is a jolly good idea.

:01:20. > :01:30.As Presidents Obama and Sarkozy make a public boo-boo, we ask what

:01:30. > :01:36.microphone gaffes really teach us about the true state of politics.

:01:36. > :01:42.A boo-boo? Yes. Was Yogi Bear there as well?! LAUGHTER It will be an

:01:42. > :01:46.action-packed 90 minutes of quality daytime TV here on BBC Two. It is

:01:46. > :01:52.worth the licence fee on its own. One licence fee it's worth! With us

:01:52. > :01:54.today to share in this feast of news are two of Westminster's

:01:54. > :01:58.average-sized beasts. The Universities Minister, David

:01:58. > :02:02.Willetts. They used to call him "two brains". Some say he's lost

:02:02. > :02:07.one! One of the new members of Ed Miliband's Shadow Cabinet, Michael

:02:07. > :02:11.Dugher. A crazy name, a crazy guy. I don't know what they call him!

:02:11. > :02:14.Seeing as we have the Universities Minister here, let's kick-off with

:02:14. > :02:17.that. Why don't we? Thousands of students are marching through

:02:17. > :02:21.London today to demonstrate against higher university tuition fees.

:02:21. > :02:26.They are planning to march to the City of London where a protest has

:02:26. > :02:33.also been taking place outside St Paul's Cathedral. Last year,

:02:33. > :02:37.student prosests resulted in -- protests resulted in violent

:02:37. > :02:42.clashes right here in Westminster. They are authorised to use plastic

:02:42. > :02:47.bullets if necessary. Mark Bergman is one of the students protesting.

:02:47. > :02:54.He is a member of the NUS National Executive Committee. How confident

:02:54. > :02:59.are you that there won't be violence? The threats of the police

:02:59. > :03:04.of using rubber bullets of possibly using water cannons should mean

:03:04. > :03:07.there should be public outrage amongst parents, the trade union

:03:07. > :03:11.movement and amongst everyone who defends civil liberties in this

:03:11. > :03:16.country. The threat of violence by the police is totally unacceptable.

:03:16. > :03:21.What about violence on the side of the students protesting? Any

:03:21. > :03:25.clashes... The students have shown over the last couple of months,

:03:25. > :03:28.over the last 12 months, that they ultimately are defending our

:03:28. > :03:32.democratic right, they are defending the welfare state and are

:03:32. > :03:36.fighting for each and everyone under attack. What about in terms

:03:36. > :03:40.of what you are precisely protesting against? Now we have

:03:40. > :03:46.heard that one in five universities want to charge less in terms of

:03:47. > :03:51.fees and bursaries. You must be pleased about that? Well, 75% of

:03:51. > :03:55.all the universities now have agreed to set their fee levels at

:03:56. > :04:01.�9,000. What we will see is a privatised university system which

:04:01. > :04:07.on the one hand will provide courses such as philosophies and

:04:07. > :04:11.humanities for the rich and we are seeing how London Metropolitan

:04:11. > :04:14.University, an institution with more black students than the entire

:04:14. > :04:17.Russell Group put together being stripped of its assets. What is

:04:17. > :04:20.your response to this idea that now universities are reconsidering the

:04:20. > :04:25.levels of fees and bursaries that they are going to charge? They are

:04:25. > :04:28.probably going to charge less than that �9,000 fee that you have just

:04:28. > :04:32.said? The students movement has always made it clear that we

:04:32. > :04:36.principally stand on the basis of free education. The free education

:04:36. > :04:40.is a principle that whether you are five, whether you are 15, or

:04:40. > :04:43.whether you are 50, you should have the right to access higher

:04:43. > :04:47.education and the fact that some universities are now turning around

:04:47. > :04:57.and saying we will decrease our fees level just means they are

:04:57. > :05:02.coming under increasing pressure to oblige to the market. Thank you.

:05:02. > :05:06.You happy that the police could open fire on students today?

:05:06. > :05:08.want to see peaceful demonstrations. People have a right to demonstrate

:05:08. > :05:12.peacefully. The police have operational decisions to take.

:05:13. > :05:19.After the events a few months back they will be concerned if there is

:05:19. > :05:25.violence from protesters. I hope we can avoid that. Are rubber bullets

:05:25. > :05:31.the right way to go about it? That has to be more than an operational

:05:31. > :05:36.decision? That must be something the Government must have a say in?

:05:36. > :05:43.I have to say what we want to see is peaceful protests...

:05:44. > :05:48.understand that. Stkpwhri I'm very happy - the crucial thing is to --

:05:48. > :05:53.I'm very happy - the crucial thing is... Education has to be paid for

:05:53. > :06:00.by someone. It is going to be paid for by graduates when they are

:06:01. > :06:05.earning more than �20,000 a year. I think we have a progressive

:06:05. > :06:09.proposal. I would be very happy to carry on arguing that case in any

:06:09. > :06:14.democratic forum. I understand that. This is a democratic and open forum.

:06:14. > :06:17.You told this programme many moons ago that only a handful of

:06:17. > :06:21.universities would charge the �9,000 top fee and that turns out

:06:21. > :06:26.not to be the case - 50 of them are charging it? You told us that,

:06:26. > :06:30.didn't you? We said that we were expecting universities to reach a

:06:30. > :06:34.decision on what their fees should be, if they wanted to go above

:06:34. > :06:42.�6,000 they would have to get agreement. We ended up with the

:06:42. > :06:48.majority of students will not be facing fees of �9,000. The average

:06:48. > :06:52.fee is �8,100. What is the difference from that �9,000 if you

:06:52. > :06:58.are a student? For them, the crucial question is what their

:06:58. > :07:05.repayments will be. They will be paying 9% of their earnings when

:07:05. > :07:08.they are earning more than �20,000. On a Government website on the 9th

:07:08. > :07:14.November 2010 it said the following: In exceptional cases

:07:14. > :07:18.universities will be able to charge higher contributions, up to �9,000

:07:18. > :07:25.limit. 50 universities are not exceptional cases. Wouldn't it be -

:07:25. > :07:31.it may be right, it may be wrong. For the sake of plain-speaking and

:07:31. > :07:34.the democratic debate, surely you should say, "We got that bit

:07:34. > :07:40.wrong"? What we got right was expecting of universities that if

:07:40. > :07:47.they want to go above six, they had to agree an access agreement. The

:07:47. > :07:51.vast majority will not be facing fees of �9,000. Ed Miliband was

:07:51. > :07:57.quite tempted to go out and talk to the protesters last time. Is he

:07:57. > :08:00.going to go and dodge a bullet today? All of us want to see a

:08:00. > :08:05.peaceful protest from the students today. We understand their real

:08:05. > :08:09.concerns. One... Are you on their side? I'm against the fact that

:08:09. > :08:14.tuition fees are �9,000. The Government could do more. You could

:08:14. > :08:19.reduce the fees to �6,000, by a third, if you didn't give the

:08:19. > :08:22.bankers the corporation tax cut this year, also if you charged a

:08:22. > :08:26.little bit more interest for those earning over �65,000. There is

:08:26. > :08:32.something you could do. The big worry is the fact that applications

:08:32. > :08:34.from British students fell by 12% in this autumn and I think it's

:08:34. > :08:39.obvious now that contrary to what the Government has said before it

:08:39. > :08:44.is deterring people from going to university. These students are

:08:44. > :08:50.marching for no fees. Are you on their side for no fees? No, we have

:08:50. > :08:54.said there shouldn't be a �9,000... You said there should be �6,000?

:08:54. > :09:00.The Government could step in and get that number down. Is that still

:09:00. > :09:04.part of Labour policy? Of course. It is? It looked like an aspiration

:09:05. > :09:13.last time? We have said that at the party conference. You think �6,000

:09:13. > :09:18.would stop the marches? It would go a long way to help. The Government

:09:18. > :09:23.said before that there wouldn't be a detrimental impact in terms...

:09:23. > :09:26.Regardless of whether the fees are �6,000 or �9,000, it is the

:09:26. > :09:33.repayment rate. Your proposal doesn't affect the monthly

:09:33. > :09:38.repayments from graduates which will be lower under our proposals.

:09:38. > :09:42.Jo? Our two guests probably know you shouldn't say anything you

:09:42. > :09:47.might regret when you are in the vague proximity of a microphone.

:09:47. > :09:49.Pity no-one told President Sarkozy and Obama who let slip some

:09:49. > :09:55.unfortunate comments about the Israeli Prime Minister, Binyamin

:09:55. > :10:03.Netanyahu. Theirs... The French press got together to agree not to

:10:03. > :10:06.make public. I went on two websites. Thank you, the French media. They

:10:06. > :10:10.were asked not to put their microphones on because President

:10:10. > :10:20.Sarkozy and Obama were going to have a private conversation. Here

:10:20. > :10:38.

:10:38. > :10:48.is a reminder of some of the best Blair, what you doing? You leaving?

:10:48. > :10:50.

:10:50. > :11:00.Don't speak before I call your name. Pretend... Pretend it was like the

:11:00. > :11:28.

:11:28. > :11:37.Everything, she's the sort of It is very funny of course...

:11:37. > :11:44.Sorry! LAUGHTER You are on air! does the President sound like

:11:44. > :11:48.Schwarzenegger? It is funny. That gaffe is quite serious, isn't it?

:11:48. > :11:52.In terms of diplomatic relations, that is a total breach of trust in

:11:52. > :11:55.dealing with the Israeli Prime Minister? It can be very serious.

:11:55. > :11:59.Serious for the poor so-and-so who works for them that forgot to

:11:59. > :12:04.switch off the microphone. worked for Gordon Brown, of course,

:12:04. > :12:11.but not at the time of the Gillian Duffy gaffe? I was in Barnsley

:12:11. > :12:17.watching it on the telly at the time. Your heart sinking? You could

:12:18. > :12:22.argue... Glad that I wasn't there. What did it do to Gordon Brown? It

:12:22. > :12:27.had serious consequences for him? It did. I don't think it was the

:12:27. > :12:32.fact that it was recorded, it is about what you say and I think that

:12:32. > :12:37.was the problem in that instance. It is why Gordon immediately

:12:37. > :12:41.apologised and it wasn't our finest hour. Yes. David Willetts, that is

:12:41. > :12:44.the point. You can apologise, and it is embarrassing. Doesn't it

:12:44. > :12:48.reveal the true nature of politicians in those private

:12:48. > :12:54.moments? I don't think so. You get a different angle on politicians.

:12:54. > :12:57.Is it the true one? In my experience, when politicians are

:12:57. > :13:02.talking privately with the leader from another country, they don't

:13:02. > :13:06.spend all their time bad mouthing foreign leaders. I don't think it

:13:06. > :13:12.was a typical exchange. Is it then the only time we get to find out

:13:12. > :13:16.what politicians are thinking? see a different side of them, don't

:13:16. > :13:19.you? Often when you are just finishing an interview, that is the

:13:19. > :13:22.point when people start relaxing, the microphones are still on and

:13:22. > :13:28.they can be caught out. Everybody has to be allowed some opportunity

:13:28. > :13:29.for some kind of private communication, some kind of

:13:29. > :13:33.relaxation. We don't want politicians who are so straight-

:13:33. > :13:38.laced they are permanently on guard. Is there a chance people might

:13:38. > :13:42.think they are only human after all? I think they probably do. Most

:13:42. > :13:46.people might make a comment about a colleague, you might say something

:13:46. > :13:51.about Andrew that you wouldn't necessarily want broadcasting...

:13:51. > :13:57.Never! I don't think that has ever happened! Have you ever been caught

:13:58. > :14:04.out? Not yet. There's time. We are working on it. David? I was trying

:14:04. > :14:11.to think - I am sure there is some terrible gaffe... You must have

:14:11. > :14:17.said privately how dare all these universities go for �9,000 a year?

:14:17. > :14:21.Sitting in my office occasionally, who knows, as one delivers these

:14:21. > :14:26.exceptional higher education reforms. A thought of frus trace

:14:26. > :14:32.might have passed -- frustration might have passed through my mind.

:14:33. > :14:38.That is the closest we will get to the truth! Italian ten-year bonds

:14:38. > :14:43.have reached 7%. The highest since the euro area was founded in 1999.

:14:43. > :14:47.It is a significant benchmark and it puts Italy in real difficulties.

:14:47. > :14:51.Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi announced he would resign yesterday

:14:51. > :14:56.but only after Parliament passes urgent pwhudge et reforms. He's

:14:56. > :15:01.also ind -- budget reforms. He's also indicated he won't stand in

:15:01. > :15:09.any future elections. Meanwhile, an EU team is due in Rome today to

:15:09. > :15:13.begin monitoring how Italy plans to cut its rising budget debt. I'm

:15:14. > :15:22.joined by Bill Emmott, former editor of the The Economist.

:15:22. > :15:26.Let's do the politics then go on to the significance of the Italian

:15:26. > :15:31.bonds. Mr Berlusconi said he would go but only after the reforms are

:15:31. > :15:33.put through. Should we be suspicious he really will go?

:15:33. > :15:37.think Silvio Berlusconi is the kind of politician who thinks there's

:15:37. > :15:43.always another chance. He has bought a little bit more time, he

:15:43. > :15:47.thinks. He can talk to the people who he described yesterday as

:15:47. > :15:51.traitors and tried to buy them back again and hope that the bond

:15:51. > :15:56.markets reward him for saying that he is going to go, but I think we

:15:56. > :16:03.see today, in the markets, they are not rewarding him. They want him to

:16:03. > :16:07.go now. It is the message of James Cardle from the Clinton

:16:07. > :16:11.administration, who said, when he died he really wanted to be

:16:11. > :16:16.reincarnated not as the Pope, but the bond market, because it was all

:16:16. > :16:19.powerful. Finally Silvio Berlusconi has met his match, the bond market.

:16:19. > :16:25.It's only all powerful because the politicians borrow so much. If they

:16:25. > :16:30.didn't borrow, they wouldn't matter to them. We are proceeding on the

:16:30. > :16:34.basis that if Mr Berlusconi goes, Italy gets a fresh start. I would

:16:34. > :16:40.suggest to you that that is not the case. And the bond markets have

:16:40. > :16:48.already got that. They do know that, and the point is, it's like the old

:16:48. > :16:51.Irish story, you wouldn't start from here. Ah yes we would!

:16:51. > :16:55.only thing that makes me feel slightly sorry for Silvio

:16:55. > :16:58.Berlusconi is he is not responsible for the debt as it was built up in

:16:58. > :17:03.the seventies and eighties by politicians what are running

:17:03. > :17:06.British-style budget deficits of 10 %, annually, year after year, but

:17:06. > :17:12.the point about Silvio Berlusconi is that he has been in power for

:17:12. > :17:18.nine years altogether out of the last 70, eight of the last 11 and

:17:18. > :17:22.he has done nothing to reduce the debt -- the last 17. He has not

:17:22. > :17:25.made any reforms. This businessman who was going to show you how to

:17:25. > :17:30.run a country has done nothing except run the country in his own

:17:30. > :17:35.interests. That is why he has to go. There is a great deal of faith in

:17:35. > :17:42.Greece and Italy being put on a technocratic government, talk of

:17:42. > :17:47.the former governor of the Bank of Greece coming back into Greece, and

:17:47. > :17:51.talks of X EU commissioner Monte coming back to the Prime Minister

:17:51. > :17:54.of Italy. I would suggest putting technocrats in it might seem fine

:17:54. > :17:59.and they will know what they are doing, but they will have no

:17:59. > :18:04.democratic legitimacy to do some very, very painful things. For I

:18:04. > :18:09.think that is absolutely right. It's a very short-term solution.

:18:09. > :18:13.For Commissioner Monte, or whoever else, it is a hospital pass. You

:18:13. > :18:19.are basically being asked to do this because the politicians don't

:18:19. > :18:28.won the unpopularity. That means it is short-term. It can only last six

:18:28. > :18:32.or nine months at most, as it did in Italy in 1993 when the Governor

:18:32. > :18:34.of the Bank of Italy was brought in as a technical governor and did a

:18:34. > :18:41.lot of reforms in one year, but then the whole thing collapsed.

:18:41. > :18:46.That is going to happen again, I would say. The significant point of

:18:46. > :18:49.the 7% benchmark, that means that the debtor is expensive and they

:18:49. > :18:55.have the biggest number of bombs after America and Japan in the

:18:55. > :19:00.world. When Portugal and Greece hit this mark, they had to go for a

:19:00. > :19:04.bail-out. I would suggest there are two problems with this now. 1,

:19:04. > :19:10.Italy is much bigger and will need a bigger bail-out, and secondly,

:19:10. > :19:14.whatever Mrs Merkel and Mr Sarkozy say, there is no bail-out fund.

:19:14. > :19:19.There is no bail-out fund of this size, nor that the German, Dutch

:19:19. > :19:25.and French voters will permit to take on liability for the Italian

:19:25. > :19:29.debt. The real solutions after the Italian solutions. And the IMF

:19:29. > :19:34.buying some time. You can buy time by rolling over the dead. Italy's

:19:34. > :19:43.in a better position than Greece or Portugal is that the debt is in a

:19:43. > :19:51.long immaturity. 300 billion of it becomes up for maturity next year.

:19:51. > :19:57.It's only 300 billion! Less have a whip-round. Is it now British

:19:57. > :20:01.government policy that given that there is no bail-out fund and the

:20:01. > :20:05.financial leveraging, we've not seen the light of day of that. Is

:20:05. > :20:14.it government policy that the ECB, the European Central Bank, contrary

:20:14. > :20:18.to what the Germans want, should become the lender of last resort?

:20:18. > :20:21.We want to see more serious progress, which could have -- into

:20:21. > :20:26.the role for the ECB, but greater moves towards fiscal discipline in

:20:26. > :20:31.the euro-zone. Is it Leiba's policy that the ECB should become the

:20:31. > :20:37.lender of last resort -- Labour's policy. That would make it harder

:20:37. > :20:41.to rescue countries like Italy. we want to see institutions like

:20:41. > :20:46.the EC be stepping up to the plate, and Labour as well. This is

:20:47. > :20:49.something that the Eurozone has to face up to. I think what you need

:20:49. > :20:57.is the ECB honouring their responsibility. Should it be the

:20:57. > :21:02.lender of last resort? I'm not asking about that. Is it your

:21:02. > :21:06.polish sheet then it should be the lender of last resort? -- policy.

:21:06. > :21:10.It should be the role of the member states in the EU. This is something

:21:10. > :21:14.that the Germans and friends have to face up to. I am grateful to do

:21:15. > :21:18.that -- or that but it has nothing to do with what I asked you. Do you

:21:18. > :21:22.think the Germans will every agree to this? And it provoked the

:21:22. > :21:26.Germans into changing their mind about their attitude to the ECB?

:21:27. > :21:30.doubt it. I would not bet in favour of it. Germans will not vote for

:21:30. > :21:37.the government that does this, that is the trouble. You never know,

:21:37. > :21:40.Apocalypse Now, and you produce a new political environment, but now

:21:41. > :21:44.they would not vote for it. Bill, thank you for that. We will have to

:21:44. > :21:54.sign you up because they will be a lot of this going on. I think you

:21:54. > :21:57.

:21:57. > :22:03.are right. Mr Berlusconi says he's going to retire and when that

:22:03. > :22:07.happens you normally get a fountain pen or a carriage clock or a litre

:22:07. > :22:12.of fine whisky in a critical -- crystal decanter. Edinburgh Crystal,

:22:12. > :22:15.in fact. When you have been the President of Italy, actually the

:22:15. > :22:21.Prime Minister, who writes the scripts? When you have been the

:22:21. > :22:26.prime minister, the President is different from Mr Berlusconi.

:22:26. > :22:32.Napolitano is the President, Berlusconi is the prime minister.

:22:32. > :22:36.The confusing thing is that he is call the President of the council.

:22:36. > :22:42.Maybe they were being clever. would probably either one be

:22:42. > :22:49.showered with fountain pens, carriage clocks and bung a bunker

:22:49. > :22:53.parties. So what would you want as a leaving present? How about a

:22:53. > :23:00.Daily Politics mug? Yes, these little babies would not look out of

:23:00. > :23:04.place at a poolside at one of these parties. So, Silvio, I am sending

:23:05. > :23:09.Joe to Rome to hand deliver one of these. You lucky, lucky man. You be

:23:09. > :23:12.careful with it. I once danger money for that. We will remind you

:23:12. > :23:22.how to enter in a minute, but let's see if you can remember when this

:23:22. > :23:31.

:23:31. > :23:41.How do you feel about the loss of the Times this morning? I will miss

:23:41. > :23:59.

:23:59. > :24:09.One woman came in and asked for 20 a loads? Were you able to supply

:24:09. > :24:43.

:24:44. > :24:46.To be in with a chance of winning a Daily Politics mug, send your

:24:46. > :24:49.answer to our special quiz e-mail address - that's dpquiz@bbc.co.uk.

:24:50. > :24:55.And you can see the full terms and conditions for Guess The Year on

:24:55. > :24:59.our website. That's bbc.co.uk/dailypolitics. Now, it's

:24:59. > :25:06.coming up to midday. Let's have a look at Big Ben. That means PMQs is

:25:06. > :25:10.on the way. And Nick Robinson is here. Welcome to our programme,

:25:10. > :25:13.Nick. Now, the row engulfing the Home Secretary is likely to be the

:25:13. > :25:16.main thrust of the exchanges. And it doesn't look like the pressure

:25:16. > :25:19.on the Home Secretary will end there. The Commons will debate a

:25:19. > :25:22.Labour motion later today calling on the Government to publish all

:25:22. > :25:26.the details that ministers gave to the UK Border Agency. Jo, just

:25:26. > :25:29.bring us up to speed on who is saying what. Who's been in charge

:25:29. > :25:34.at passport control? That's the question everybody at Westminster

:25:34. > :25:37.is asking today. The Home Secretary said yesterday that she did

:25:37. > :25:40.authorise a 'pilot' scheme to relax border checks for some passengers

:25:40. > :25:46.arriving in the UK over the summer, but that she had not authorised

:25:46. > :25:48.wider relaxation of controls, which only a minister could do. But she

:25:48. > :25:52.was contradicted by the Border Force chief, Brodie Clark, who

:25:52. > :25:59.dramatically resigned last night. He issued a statement disputing Mrs

:25:59. > :26:01.May's version of events. He said, "The Home Secretary suggests that I

:26:01. > :26:11.added additional measures, improperly, to the trial of our

:26:11. > :26:11.

:26:11. > :26:14.risk-based controls: I did not." "The Home Secretary also implies

:26:14. > :26:17.that I relaxed the controls in favour of queue management. I did

:26:17. > :26:19.not". But Brodie Clark's boss, Rob Whiteman says Clark "admitted" to

:26:19. > :26:22.him that he "authorised staff to go further than ministerial

:26:22. > :26:25.instruction". But in his statement Clark also says that the measures

:26:25. > :26:33.have been in place since 2008, which might just get him and the

:26:33. > :26:39.Home Secretary both off the hook. David Willetts, in October of this

:26:39. > :26:43.year, less than a month ago, 11th October, the Prime Minister said

:26:43. > :26:47."we will reclaim our borders. We will get a grip on immigration in

:26:47. > :26:54.this country. Real limits, proper enforcement, real control over how

:26:54. > :26:59.many people come here and who.". That was that you had already open

:26:59. > :27:02.the borders to EU citizens. decision that ministers took was

:27:02. > :27:05.the piloting a scheme to make a risk assessment of people coming

:27:05. > :27:10.into the country and it was absolutely not opening of borders.

:27:10. > :27:14.That was not any decision that the Home Secretary table. It took was a

:27:14. > :27:17.pilot Why did you include every airport in the country? It was

:27:17. > :27:22.being trial on certain groups of people and the aim was that the

:27:22. > :27:26.people working at the borders agency should be able to exercise

:27:26. > :27:30.some judgment in a very small number of the tests applied.

:27:30. > :27:35.understand that, but if you say to a certain group of people it apply

:27:35. > :27:39.to everyone in what we call the European economic Area, which is

:27:39. > :27:44.all of the 27 countries in the EU, plus Switzerland, Norway and other

:27:44. > :27:48.ones that I forget. It is a pretty the group of people. These people

:27:48. > :27:53.could come in without proper checks, and yet, you're Prime Minister says,

:27:53. > :27:59.even after all that has happened, we will reclaim Al borders. Real

:27:59. > :28:03.control over how many people come here and who. That is absolutely

:28:03. > :28:09.not what was being piloted. What was piloted was the use by border

:28:09. > :28:14.agency officials of some risk assessment by them so that if, for

:28:14. > :28:19.example, a school party was coming through they had some discretion

:28:19. > :28:23.into which tests they applied and most of them were applied in those

:28:23. > :28:30.cases. You were not applying the biometric tests, correct? They

:28:31. > :28:34.could take a specific discretionary choice, the biometric data was one

:28:34. > :28:37.thing and that it is only a second photograph. But that is not opening

:28:37. > :28:44.up the borders, and that is precisely why the Home Secretary

:28:44. > :28:47.was so shocked. She is the one who says she cannot tell us get in

:28:47. > :28:56.illegally this summer. If that is not opening of borders, what is?

:28:56. > :28:59.Not knock. Who's there? Coming. -- come in. We know that the pilot

:28:59. > :29:03.actually increased by 10 % the number of illegal immigrants

:29:03. > :29:06.detected. What a cause she cannot know, and I hope the investigation

:29:06. > :29:13.will discover this, is what happened as a result of this

:29:13. > :29:18.completely unlicensed decision by the guy running the borders.

:29:18. > :29:22.Michael de deux, I'm not sure why you are making such a song and

:29:22. > :29:25.dance. In 2008, under a Labour government, you did not suspend

:29:25. > :29:30.what the Tories suspended, you suspended the warning index checks

:29:30. > :29:34.on the people coming in. You did that, with people who were risk,

:29:34. > :29:38.you suspended cheques. The reason why we are making a song and dance

:29:38. > :29:40.about it is because we thought Theresa May was incredibly

:29:40. > :29:45.complacent and out of touch when she could not tell us how many

:29:45. > :29:51.people came in unchecked because of a decision she took. But you

:29:51. > :29:56.suspended checked -- checks on 100 occasions. We had 1,000 more

:29:56. > :29:59.immigration officers and every single year we tightened up.

:29:59. > :30:05.suspended it over 100 times. introduce the biometrics on every

:30:05. > :30:09.visa, more immigration officers. 2004, local managers at Heathrow

:30:09. > :30:14.decided there would be all open controls and no checks whatsoever

:30:14. > :30:18.made. That was under you. Every year we endeavoured to tighten up

:30:19. > :30:23.the Czechs. The government took a decision to relax the cheques this

:30:23. > :30:27.summer and then took a decision not to check it. You never relaxed any

:30:27. > :30:37.of the checking? I was told by a former immigration minister he

:30:37. > :30:40.

:30:40. > :30:44.would meet the scene like this in this case. There will be a lot of

:30:44. > :30:48.ammunition to throw around. truth is, in terms of impression,

:30:48. > :30:52.the government has paid a price. Look at the cartoonists today, they

:30:52. > :30:55.show Osama Bin Laden wandering through passport control and they

:30:56. > :30:59.have paid a price. The question is, is there a fatal fact. So far

:30:59. > :31:08.bought a razor maker there isn't. Here is Prime Minister's Questions

:31:08. > :31:11.He had already proved himself to be a dedicated and courageous soldier.

:31:11. > :31:15.He has made the ultimate sacrifice for the safety of the British

:31:15. > :31:22.people and we should send our deepest condolences to his family

:31:22. > :31:26.and friends. This week, we will have lost their lives in defence of

:31:26. > :31:28.our country so we can enjoy peace and freedom. We are humbled by the

:31:29. > :31:32.sacrifice they have made. This morning, I had meetings with

:31:32. > :31:41.ministerial colleagues and others and I shall have further such

:31:41. > :31:45.meetings later today. May I add my tribute to the Prime Minister's

:31:45. > :31:52.about the death of Private Matthew Haseldin of 2nd Battalion The

:31:52. > :31:57.Mercian Regiment. Does he think telling 25 million workers they

:31:57. > :32:01.have no job security will boost or reduce consumer confidence? Clearly,

:32:01. > :32:07.what we have to do is make it easier for firms to hire people.

:32:07. > :32:10.That is why we have scrapped Labour's jobs tax, that is why we

:32:10. > :32:14.have taken a million of the lowest paid people out of tax. That is why

:32:14. > :32:18.we have established new rules so you can only go to a tribunal after

:32:18. > :32:22.working somewhere for two years and that's why we have introduced fees

:32:22. > :32:31.for claims in employment tribunals to stop these claims. We are

:32:31. > :32:35.apprenticeships all as a way of helping to give young people jobs.

:32:35. > :32:40.THE SPEAKER: Ed Miliband. Speaker, can I join the Prime

:32:40. > :32:44.Minister in paying tribute to Private Matthew Haseldin from 2nd

:32:44. > :32:48.Battalion The Mercian Regiment? He showed immense courage trying to

:32:48. > :32:52.protect local people and our thoughts are with his family and

:32:52. > :32:55.friends. With troops serving in conflict overseas, it is more

:32:56. > :33:01.important that we honour this weekend in Remembrance Sunday all

:33:01. > :33:05.of those who have served our country and are indeed serving our

:33:05. > :33:09.country today. Mr Speaker, can the Prime Minister tell us how many

:33:09. > :33:15.people entered the UK under the Home Secretary's relaxed border

:33:15. > :33:18.controls? The figures for the period between August 2010 and

:33:18. > :33:22.August 2011 for the number of people who entered the country are

:33:22. > :33:27.published in the normal way. The figures I do have is that the

:33:27. > :33:33.number of people arrested was up by 10% and the number of drug seizures

:33:33. > :33:37.was markedly up and the number of firearms seizures was up by 100%. I

:33:37. > :33:41.think we should be clear about what did and what did not happen here.

:33:41. > :33:46.First, the Home Secretary did agree a pilot for a more targeted

:33:46. > :33:49.approach to border control, this was for people within the European

:33:49. > :33:53.Economic Area. It allowed better targeting of high-risk people and

:33:53. > :33:57.less for others, notably children. This did not compromise security.

:33:57. > :34:04.This was an operational decision but one I fully back and think that

:34:04. > :34:08.she was right to take. But, second - and this is important - decisions

:34:08. > :34:12.were taken to extend this beyond the European Economic Area

:34:12. > :34:16.nationals, this was not authorised by the Home Secretary. Indeed, when

:34:16. > :34:20.specific permission was asked for, it was not granted. Let me just say,

:34:20. > :34:25.this did not mean our borders were left undefended. Passports

:34:25. > :34:29.continued to be checked. As this was an authorised action, as it was

:34:29. > :34:34.contrary to what the Home Secretary agreed, it is right that the head

:34:35. > :34:44.of the Border Force was suspended. I back that action completely.

:34:45. > :34:45.

:34:46. > :34:52.Speaker, it is just not good enough. The Prime Minister can't tell us

:34:52. > :34:57.how many people, how many millions of people were let in under the

:34:57. > :35:03.relaxed border controls agreed by the Home Secretary. Mr Speaker,

:35:03. > :35:07.isn't it totally unacceptable that the Home Secretary chose to relax

:35:07. > :35:13.border controls in July and even yesterday she could not tell us

:35:13. > :35:16.which airports and ports it applied to, how many took it up and for how

:35:17. > :35:25.long. She provided those figures and the figures for the number of

:35:25. > :35:29.arrests are as follows. Firearms, 100 increase in seizures. Illegal

:35:29. > :35:31.immigrants 10% increase in arrest. Forged documents, 48% increase. The

:35:31. > :35:37.simple fact that the right honourable gentleman has to accept

:35:37. > :35:41.- and everyone has to accept - is this: Is the head of the UK Border

:35:41. > :35:49.Agency, Rob Whiteman, who also didn't know that this unauthorised

:35:49. > :35:55.action was taking place, he said this - it is very important for the

:35:55. > :36:00.House to understand: Brodie Clark admitted to me on 2nd November that

:36:00. > :36:04.on a number of occasions this year he authorised his staff to go

:36:04. > :36:08.further than ministerial action. I therefore suspended him from his

:36:08. > :36:13.duties. In my opinion it was right for officials to have recommended

:36:13. > :36:17.the pilot so we focus attention on higher risk to our border. It is

:36:17. > :36:20.unacceptable that one of my senior officials went further than was

:36:20. > :36:25.approved. That is why he was suspended. That is why the Home

:36:25. > :36:29.Secretary backed that decision. It is an important issue to understand

:36:29. > :36:33.that Brodie Clark was suspended by the head of the UK Border Agency.

:36:33. > :36:40.It was a decision quite rightly taken by him, backed by the Home

:36:40. > :36:49.Secretary, backed by me. Isn't it utterly typical, Mr Speaker, when

:36:49. > :36:54.things go wrong, it is nothing to do with them?

:36:54. > :37:01.THE SPEAKER: Order. Let me emphasise there are members on both

:37:01. > :37:06.sides of the House shouting their heads off. Members of Youth

:37:06. > :37:10.Parliament last Friday... Order! Order! Who spoke brilliantly and

:37:10. > :37:16.passionately disagreed with each other but they didn't shout at each

:37:16. > :37:20.other. Mr Ed Miliband? Mr Speaker, what did the Home Secretary say in

:37:20. > :37:24.the past when she was in opposition when things went wrong on

:37:24. > :37:31.immigration? She said, "I'm sick and tired of Government Ministers

:37:31. > :37:34.who simply blame other people when things go wrong." Now the Prime

:37:34. > :37:39.Minister said yesterday in his evidence to the Liaison Committee

:37:39. > :37:45.about the relaxation of border controls in the last few months,

:37:45. > :37:49."Clearly, it's not acceptable and it's not acceptable it went on for

:37:49. > :37:54.so long." Mr Speaker, why did the Home Secretary allow it to happen?

:37:54. > :37:59.On the one hand, he is trying to blame me for not taking

:37:59. > :38:03.responsibility and quote my words "taking responsibility" and saying

:38:03. > :38:08.what isn't acceptable. I have to say having a lecture in

:38:08. > :38:15.responsibility from a party that trebled immigration, that let an

:38:15. > :38:19.extra 2.2 million people into our country, that allowed everyone from

:38:19. > :38:25.Eastern Europe to come here with no transitional controls, that built

:38:25. > :38:28.up a backlog of 500,000 asylum claims and no apology about it.

:38:28. > :38:34.Even today, when the Leader of the Opposition is asked whether too

:38:34. > :38:39.many people were let into our country, his answer was very simple

:38:39. > :38:44.- no. Mr Speaker, he's been the Prime Minister for 18 months. He

:38:44. > :38:48.can't keep saying, "It's nothing to do with me." It is his

:38:48. > :38:53.responsibility. A month ago, Mr Speaker, the Prime Minister gave a

:38:53. > :38:57.speech on boarder controls called Reclaiming Our Borders. Mr Speaker,

:38:57. > :39:01.while he was boasting about reclaiming our borders, his Home

:39:01. > :39:06.Secretary was relaxing our borders. Doesn't the Prime Minister think he

:39:06. > :39:11.should at least have known? pilot that the Home Secretary

:39:11. > :39:16.introduced meant more arrests, more firearms seized, more forged

:39:16. > :39:19.documents found. That is the truth of it. The fact is that officials

:39:19. > :39:23.went further than Home Office Ministers authorised, that is what

:39:23. > :39:31.is wrong, that is why someone had to be suspended. That was the right

:39:31. > :39:37.decision. He asks what we have done. Let me tell him. We are completing

:39:37. > :39:41.e-borders so every flight will be checked from next April. We got the

:39:41. > :39:46.first six months of this year, we seized more drugs than in the whole

:39:46. > :39:52.of last year. Last year, we rejected 400,000 applications for

:39:52. > :39:56.visas. We turned away 68,000 people without the correct documents. I'm

:39:56. > :40:02.determined we have tough border controls and finally we have a Home

:40:02. > :40:04.Office and an Immigration Minister that want to cut immigration.

:40:04. > :40:09.Speaker, anyone listening to the Prime Minister would think his

:40:09. > :40:13.policy has been a great success. It is a fiasco! It is a complete

:40:13. > :40:20.fiasco! Now the one thing he can't claim to know anything about is

:40:20. > :40:23.cuts to the UK Border Force. Can he confirm how many UK Border staff

:40:23. > :40:28.are going to be cut under his Government? By the end of this

:40:28. > :40:32.Parliament, there will be 18,000 people working for the UK Border

:40:32. > :40:37.Agency which is the same number as were working for the UK Border

:40:37. > :40:44.Agency in 2006 when he was sitting in the Treasury and determining the

:40:44. > :40:50.budgets. He asks about what we have done in 18 months in office on

:40:50. > :40:54.immigration. Let me tell him. The first-ever limit on work visas from

:40:54. > :40:59.outside the European Union. We have stopped more than 470 colleges from

:40:59. > :41:05.bringing in bogus foreign students. We have cut student visas by 70,000.

:41:05. > :41:08.Anyone who comes here to get married has to speak English. We

:41:08. > :41:11.are ending automatic settlement rights and stopping the nonsense of

:41:12. > :41:18.people misusing the Human Rights Act. In 18 months we have done more

:41:18. > :41:25.to control immigration than he did in 13 years. Mr Speaker, the truth

:41:25. > :41:31.is it's a fiasco and he knows it. That is the reality. It is a... Mr

:41:31. > :41:36.Speaker, it is a pattern with this Government. Broken promises. Gross

:41:36. > :41:42.incompetence. Blame everybody else. He's an out of touch Prime Minister

:41:42. > :41:50.leading a shambolic Government. ever, he completely lost his way!

:41:50. > :41:57.LAUGHTER I think he should spend a little more time listening to the

:41:58. > :42:07.author of Blue Labour. He said this: "Labour lied about the extent

:42:08. > :42:11.

:42:11. > :42:16.of immigration." Where's the apology? Thank you, Mr Speaker. On

:42:16. > :42:19.Friday 3 Commando Brigade will be marching through the streets of

:42:19. > :42:23.Plymouth on their homecoming parade. I know the Prime Minister will be

:42:23. > :42:26.with us in spirit. Would he today like to send a message of support

:42:26. > :42:30.to these brave and very professional Royal Marines of whom

:42:30. > :42:33.we are all so very proud? I will certainly join my honourable friend

:42:33. > :42:38.in doing that. I know that the whole of the South West and the

:42:38. > :42:43.whole country is incredibly proud of the Marines and we are proud of

:42:43. > :42:46.3 Commando Brigade who will be marching through Plymouth. I send

:42:46. > :42:50.my very best wishes for the homecoming parade. We should put on

:42:50. > :42:57.record what they have achieved in Task Force Helmand. They carried

:42:58. > :43:01.out 37,000 patrols. They found over 400 IEDs. They have made a real

:43:01. > :43:08.difference to the safety and security of that country and the

:43:08. > :43:12.safety of our country, too. Does the Prime Minister think it is

:43:12. > :43:15.right and proper and defensible that the Royal Bank of Scotland

:43:16. > :43:20.which received massive bail-out during the crisis should be paying

:43:20. > :43:25.over �500 million out in bonuses this year? No, I don't think it is

:43:25. > :43:29.acceptable. It hasn't yet set its figures for bonus payments. The

:43:29. > :43:34.British Government is a seriously large shareholder in RBS and we

:43:34. > :43:41.will be making our views known. joining me in giving our

:43:41. > :43:45.condolences to the relatives of the Red Arrows pilot killed at RAF

:43:45. > :43:50.Scampton yesterday, will the Prime Minister acknowledge the overriding

:43:50. > :43:56.need for safety and that our campaign to save RAF Scampton from

:43:56. > :43:59.closure is not just based on sentiment for the historic home of

:43:59. > :44:05.the Dambusters but on the overriding need for the safe

:44:05. > :44:10.uncluttered skies above North Lincoln shirp which the Red --

:44:10. > :44:15.Lincolnshire which the Red Arrows need to practice safely? It comes

:44:15. > :44:19.on top of a second accident that happened in the Red Arrows. This

:44:19. > :44:22.has been a very tragic time for something that the whole country

:44:22. > :44:25.loves and I know the home to them in Lincolnshire is extremely

:44:25. > :44:30.important. We must get to the bottom of what happened. I

:44:30. > :44:36.understand why he wants to stand up for the airbase in his constituency.

:44:36. > :44:40.Thank you. The trade unions yesterday published data showing my

:44:40. > :44:43.constituency has seen the largest growth in youth unemployment in

:44:43. > :44:46.this country. Given we won't have the opportunity to question the

:44:46. > :44:51.Prime Minister on unemployment numbers next week, why is he

:44:51. > :44:53.letting young people down in my constituency? We face a difficult

:44:53. > :44:56.situation with unemployment including amongst young people,

:44:56. > :45:00.right across the country and we need to do everything we can to

:45:00. > :45:03.help people back into work. That is why there is record investment

:45:03. > :45:08.going into apprenticeships, record investment going into the work

:45:08. > :45:11.programme. The real need is to grow the private sector. It is a time

:45:11. > :45:15.that whoever was in Government would be having to make reductions

:45:15. > :45:19.in the public sector. He shakes his head. Any Government - look across

:45:19. > :45:28.Europe at the reductions. We need to get the private sector growing.

:45:28. > :45:33.That is what this Government is Developing considerable potential

:45:33. > :45:36.for jobs in the energy sector is crucial for economic recovery in my

:45:36. > :45:40.constituency as is providing skills to take on the jobs. Will the Prime

:45:40. > :45:44.Minister ensure the government does all it can to fund the completion

:45:44. > :45:48.of the new high-school in Lowestoft that will play such an important

:45:48. > :45:51.role in giving young people the skills in a deprived area?

:45:51. > :45:56.Honourable Friend makes an important point about this local

:45:56. > :46:00.school and the skills it will bring. This year, Suffolk has an extra �33

:46:00. > :46:03.million in capital funds and it is for the local authority to decide

:46:03. > :46:08.how to spend money, but I would make the point that school capital

:46:08. > :46:16.available throughout this Parliament amounts to �15.9 billion,

:46:17. > :46:23.so money is therefore important This weekend the nation will pause

:46:23. > :46:27.to remember paying tribute to hour war dead. At Cenotaph across the

:46:27. > :46:29.nation we will pay homage to men and women who have paid the Supreme

:46:30. > :46:36.sacrifice in conflict down the years. Would the Prime Minister

:46:36. > :46:41.agree that whether it is in shops, schools, churches or on football

:46:41. > :46:46.shirts, where there is a desire to display the tribute in a non-

:46:46. > :46:49.partisan way it should not just be allowed, but positively promoted?

:46:49. > :46:53.completely agree with the Honourable Gentleman and sense the

:46:53. > :46:57.entire house does as well. I think it's a remarkable achievement of

:46:57. > :47:02.the Royal British Legion and the country as a hole that over the

:47:02. > :47:06.past years we have reintroduced the sense of the silence taking place

:47:06. > :47:09.on the 11th hour of the 11th day. I think it is absolutely right and

:47:09. > :47:13.appropriate in Northern Ireland where so many people have served so

:47:13. > :47:17.bravely in our armed forces and from both sides of the border.

:47:17. > :47:20.Whenever I visit the Royal Irish Regiment you are struck by how many

:47:20. > :47:24.people from both sides of the borders have served in the armed

:47:24. > :47:29.forces. Less family breakdown would reduce

:47:29. > :47:34.the costs loaded onto Allah economy, so will the Prime Minister

:47:34. > :47:39.encourage health authorities across the whole country to take part in

:47:39. > :47:42.care for the pilot schemes where volunteer parents offer support to

:47:42. > :47:48.new parents in the early years of their family life which is when

:47:48. > :47:51.half of all break-ups occur. honourable friend has a great

:47:52. > :47:55.record in pushing forward this vital idea. It is a tragic fact

:47:55. > :47:59.that so many couples break-up after the arrival of the first child

:47:59. > :48:02.because of the stresses and strains it brings. It is dreadful for the

:48:02. > :48:06.couple's and dreadful for the children. We spend a huge amount in

:48:06. > :48:10.the country of dealing with social breakdown and in my view we should

:48:10. > :48:20.spend more to help keep families together and relationship advice

:48:20. > :48:21.

:48:21. > :48:25.and support, as my Honourable On Friday, the UN Security Council

:48:25. > :48:31.will consider the democratically conveyed Palestinian request for

:48:31. > :48:35.full membership of the United Nations. Might the international

:48:35. > :48:39.community not do more to advance the prospect of a to state solution

:48:39. > :48:42.by doing more to create a to state processed and in that context,

:48:42. > :48:48.would he insure that the UK representative casts a positive

:48:48. > :48:50.vote on Friday and doesn't go for abstention? My Right Honourable

:48:50. > :48:53.Friend the Foreign Secretary will make a full statement to the House

:48:54. > :48:57.about this issue and a few moments. Let me say this. The British

:48:57. > :49:03.government is fully behind the two state solution but I profoundly

:49:03. > :49:08.believe that the way you get a to state solution is not through

:49:08. > :49:11.declarations at the UN, the way you get it is through the two potential

:49:11. > :49:17.States, Israel and Palestine, sitting down and negotiating. All

:49:17. > :49:26.of our efforts should be put towards making that happen.

:49:26. > :49:31.(WHITE)THE SPEAKER: (BLUE)(CAPNEXT). The winter fuel payment provides

:49:31. > :49:34.valuable help with paying their bills. Individuals are free to

:49:34. > :49:38.donate their payment to charity if they wish, but it must be a

:49:38. > :49:43.decision for them. I thanked the Prime Minister for the question

:49:43. > :49:49.answer and I'd like to congratulate Peter Whyman for coming up with an

:49:49. > :49:53.idea where people can donate their winter fuel allowance where they do

:49:53. > :49:55.not need it. Would the government try and include an option on the

:49:56. > :49:59.letter sent to all of the over sixties about the winter fuel

:49:59. > :50:04.allowance to allow the donation to be donated automatically to the

:50:04. > :50:11.appeal? I will look at the suggestion she makes, but it is

:50:11. > :50:15.very important that we keep the promises about keeping up winter

:50:15. > :50:18.fuel and cold weather payments. I would not want to see any pressure

:50:19. > :50:25.unnecessarily put on people to do something that might not be in

:50:25. > :50:35.their own best interests. The operational instruction from

:50:35. > :50:36.

:50:36. > :50:38.the UK Border Agency on 28th July says we might see checking under 18

:50:38. > :50:44.year-olds against the warnings in this. Did anyone in the Home Office

:50:44. > :50:48.clear that document, and given the conflicting stories between the

:50:48. > :50:55.Home Secretary officials and her own version, will he publish all

:50:55. > :50:59.the ministerial instructions to the UK order agency? He is trying

:50:59. > :51:04.desperately to make up the ground lost by his leader, but he rather

:51:04. > :51:12.lost the house in the process. The point I would make to him is that

:51:12. > :51:15.there is going to be an inquiry carried out by the Chief Inspector

:51:15. > :51:18.of the ordinary, so the chief inspector who found out what was

:51:18. > :51:28.going wrong in terms of undertaking the didn't have the permission of

:51:28. > :51:31.

:51:31. > :51:35.ministers and all of these issues On Christmas Day 1914, British and

:51:35. > :51:38.German troops put down their weapons and played a football match

:51:38. > :51:44.in no-man's-land. The following day the bloody hostilities resumed and

:51:44. > :51:47.we today where the poppy in remembrance of our war dead. Will

:51:47. > :51:50.the Prime Minister join me in condemning the outrageous decision

:51:50. > :51:55.by Fifa or to refuse the home nations their request to wear a

:51:55. > :52:01.poppy on their shirts this weekend as a simple mark of respect and

:52:01. > :52:05.I think the Honourable Lady Nott speaks just the the whole house,

:52:05. > :52:09.but a whole country, by being completely baffled and frankly

:52:09. > :52:13.angry by the decision made by Fifa. If teams want to be able to put the

:52:13. > :52:16.poppy on their shirt, as many teams do in our Football League, they

:52:16. > :52:19.should be able to and national level whether it is the English

:52:19. > :52:25.team or the Welsh team. I think this is an appalling decision and I

:52:25. > :52:28.hope they will reconsider it. As poverty is rising, the Prime

:52:28. > :52:32.Minister is removing the requirement for people to register

:52:32. > :52:36.to vote in Britain, thereby removing millions of people's right

:52:36. > :52:41.to vote. Is seen there for not taking their money with one hand

:52:41. > :52:44.and taking their votes with another -- is the there for not taking

:52:44. > :52:50.their money with one hand and taking votes with another and it is

:52:50. > :53:00.a grotesque distortion of democracy to remove the voting power of the

:53:00. > :53:00.

:53:00. > :53:06.most vulnerable? The point I would make is that we are introducing

:53:06. > :53:10.individuals and I can understand why he does not support the idea of

:53:10. > :53:16.making constituencies the same size, because his constituency only has

:53:16. > :53:21.62,000 people in, where his Right Honourable Friend the Member for

:53:21. > :53:25.East Ham represents 91,000 people. I do think it is a basic act of

:53:26. > :53:32.fairness to have seats the same size. It was a demand of the

:53:32. > :53:39.Chartists in the 1840s and I think it's time we introduced it.

:53:39. > :53:44.Is the Prime Minister aware that there is growing evidence increased

:53:44. > :53:46.abuse, intimidation and harassment on Park home sites across the

:53:46. > :53:51.country and tackling needs these problem needs political will and

:53:51. > :53:58.not a large sum of money. Will the Prime Minister give urgency to

:53:58. > :54:01.addressing these issues so that vulnerable parts homeowners need

:54:01. > :54:05.the protection that -- get the protection they need as soon as

:54:05. > :54:09.possible? I have constituency cases myself where people have been

:54:09. > :54:14.treated very badly by Park home owners. There are some extremely

:54:14. > :54:17.good Park home owners to obey the rules and demonstrate

:54:17. > :54:20.responsibility and compassion but there are friendly some who don't.

:54:20. > :54:23.We are committed to providing a better deal to residents by

:54:23. > :54:26.improving their rights and increasing protection from bad site

:54:26. > :54:30.owners and double arrange for her to have a meeting with the housing

:54:30. > :54:35.minister so they can discuss this urgent action -- I will arrange for

:54:35. > :54:38.her. In these difficult economic times it is more important that our

:54:38. > :54:43.politics are in touch with the people we represent. Would the

:54:43. > :54:45.Prime Minister therefore welcome the first successful people on a

:54:45. > :54:48.parliamentary Speakers placement scheme you are inspiring

:54:48. > :54:51.individuals who would never normally get the chance to work in

:54:51. > :54:56.politics. Would he agree to meet with them and listen to their views

:54:56. > :55:00.on the relevance of the issues today and Perhaps how all of us our

:55:00. > :55:04.doing in our politics? I joined the Right Honourable Lady in the point

:55:05. > :55:07.she makes. She has made a huge impact on the impact of social

:55:07. > :55:12.mobility and trying to help people who have not had good chances in

:55:12. > :55:16.life and I applaud her. If there is time in my busy diary I will do as

:55:16. > :55:19.she says. I do think there is an important opportunity for everyone

:55:20. > :55:23.in the house to look at organisations like the social

:55:24. > :55:27.mobility foundation that provide opportunities for internships from

:55:27. > :55:30.inner-city schools to have the experience of working in Palmer. I

:55:30. > :55:33.have used the scheme as other members of the Cabinet have, and I

:55:33. > :55:37.think it is an excellent scheme to give people a good chance to see

:55:37. > :55:46.what we do in this place, not just on Wednesday at 12 o'clock, but

:55:46. > :55:50.Does my right honourable friend think it is right for Honourable

:55:50. > :56:00.Members to take instruction from the GMB about how to vote on

:56:00. > :56:00.

:56:00. > :56:04.amendments? I do think the Honourable Lady raises a serious

:56:04. > :56:08.issue and I can sense a bitter resistance! That is perhaps not rip

:56:08. > :56:12.-- surprising when 85 % of their money comes from the trade unions,

:56:12. > :56:17.but the fact is when we discuss legislation in the house it should

:56:17. > :56:26.be ringing our judgment an hour and ideas and not just picking up a

:56:26. > :56:31.tired old free from a trade union - - Our Ideas. -- a tired old brief.

:56:31. > :56:34.In my constituency there are over 3,000 people claiming jobseeker's

:56:34. > :56:38.allowance for the latest figures show that there were only 300 job

:56:38. > :56:42.vacancies available. Jobs are being lost in the public sector and the

:56:42. > :56:46.private sector. How high does unemployment have to go before the

:56:46. > :56:51.Prime Minister will accept that his economic policies simply aren't

:56:51. > :56:55.working? Unemployment is too high today. I want to see it come down

:56:55. > :56:59.from its already high levels. What we have to do in order to make that

:56:59. > :57:03.happen is put resources into the apprentice scheme and put it into

:57:03. > :57:07.the work programme, to make sure we do all the things that help

:57:07. > :57:11.businesses employ people. That is what this government is doing. We

:57:11. > :57:15.are cutting corporation tax and introducing enterprise zones and

:57:15. > :57:20.doing everything we can to help businesses and we will do that in

:57:20. > :57:25.her constituency and through the country.

:57:25. > :57:29.Italian bond yields have jumped by more than a percentage point to an

:57:29. > :57:35.unsustainable 8.1 %. Could the Prime Minister tell us what euro-

:57:35. > :57:37.zone leaders must do to stop the contagion? I do think my Honourable

:57:37. > :57:46.Friend makes important point. If you don't have credibility about

:57:46. > :57:50.your plans to deal with your DEC's, and they will not lend you any

:57:50. > :57:53.money. That is what we are seeing in countries like Greece and Italy

:57:53. > :57:57.where the price of borrowing money is getting to a totally

:57:57. > :58:05.unsustainable level. It is a lesson for us to have sustainable plans to

:58:05. > :58:09.get on top of Our debts. In terms of Europe, as we look in Europe,

:58:09. > :58:13.and with his -- decide on a decisive right down about the debt,

:58:13. > :58:19.people look at other countries and Unita have in place the biggest

:58:19. > :58:23.possible firewall. -- you need to have in place. Euro-zone leaders

:58:23. > :58:31.urgently need to put flesh on the bones and figures on the size of

:58:31. > :58:37.the firewall. Last year youth unemployment at Tameside stood at

:58:37. > :58:41.an unacceptable 25 per smack - 20 %, one in five, and now stands at 34 %

:58:41. > :58:46.which is frankly shocking. In light of this, does he still believe that

:58:46. > :58:52.the decision to scrap the future jobs fund was the right one? Let me

:58:52. > :58:57.make the point that under Labour youth unemployment went up by 40 %.

:58:57. > :59:01.On the issue of the future jobs fund, the evidence we received on

:59:01. > :59:07.coming into government was that the future jobs fund was three or four

:59:07. > :59:12.times more expensive than other job creation schemes and in many parts

:59:12. > :59:17.of the country including in the West Midlands the percentage of

:59:17. > :59:21.jobs in the private sector was as low as two or 3%. It was right to

:59:21. > :59:24.scrap the future jobs fund and put in its place apprenticeships, the

:59:24. > :59:32.work programme and work experience which will make a difference to

:59:32. > :59:37.young people. Mr Speaker, war is a failure of

:59:37. > :59:40.politics. The people who go to war are not politicians, they are brave

:59:40. > :59:44.service people who die in the service of the country. Could I

:59:45. > :59:50.urge my Right Honourable friend to write to fever to point out that

:59:50. > :59:52.the poppy is not a political symbol -- FIFA, it is a symbol that says

:59:52. > :59:57.we respect the sacrifice that people have made on behalf of their

:59:57. > :00:01.countries. I will certainly do as my Honourable friend says. It is

:00:01. > :00:05.not just an issue of writing to FIFA, it is asking them and she

:00:05. > :00:11.bodies, including the FA, to take a very strong line about this. As he

:00:11. > :00:15.says, this is not of left or right, Labour or Conservative, we all wear

:00:15. > :00:19.a poppy with pride. We all do it, even if we don't approve of the

:00:19. > :00:24.wars people were fighting in. We do it to one of the fact that these

:00:24. > :00:27.people sacrifice their lives for us. It is absolutely vital for FIFA to

:00:27. > :00:34.understand it and a clear message going out of the house can make

:00:34. > :00:38.them think again. Building on the last answer that

:00:38. > :00:41.the Prime Minister gave, given the fact that Italy is now on an

:00:41. > :00:49.incredible fiscal path, in the words of the Prime Minister, will

:00:49. > :00:53.he assist the G20 finance ministers to meet and help create the

:00:53. > :00:57.European financial stability package in such a way that helps

:00:57. > :01:00.the Eurozone? The Honourable Gentleman makes an important point,

:01:00. > :01:05.but the first responsibility for building is bail-out fund has got

:01:05. > :01:11.to be with the euro-zone members. The problem with the G20 is, as we

:01:11. > :01:15.discussed in the House, you cannot ask the g 20 and the IMF to do

:01:15. > :01:18.things that the Eurozone members are not prepared to do. We do stand

:01:18. > :01:23.ready to boost the IMF and we do want to help countries in distress.

:01:23. > :01:26.We do not want to see our trading partners collapse. We understand

:01:26. > :01:31.that even though we don't support membership of the euro, country's

:01:31. > :01:36.falling out of the euro could be very painful for our economy. It is

:01:36. > :01:42.their currency Doak and they have to sort out the problems. -- it is

:01:42. > :01:46.their currency though. In reply to my Honourable Friend to

:01:46. > :01:49.the member for Orpington referred to a firewall in these bail-out.

:01:49. > :01:52.Would he accept that what we need is structural renegotiation of the

:01:52. > :01:56.treaty's given the impact it is having on the United Kingdom and to

:01:56. > :02:01.use a cricketing analogy, which she will be aware of, he would not be

:02:01. > :02:11.sent in with a broken bat, he would be sent in with a new bat and the

:02:11. > :02:14.

:02:14. > :02:18.There is a long history in my party of cricketing metaphors and Europe

:02:18. > :02:26.ending and happily, so I don't think I will necessarily follow

:02:26. > :02:30.down the park. -- ending unhappily. But we will defend our country and

:02:30. > :02:33.we got something back in the treaty, which was to get back out of the

:02:33. > :02:36.bail-out fund. If there a future treaty changes and some European

:02:36. > :02:45.countries are pushing for them, we will make sure we will do a good

:02:45. > :02:50.deal for Britain and protect the Prime Minister's Questions comes to

:02:50. > :02:56.an end. It was not that difficult that the frontbench exchanges were

:02:57. > :03:00.dominated by this row over Theresa May and what she did and didn't

:03:00. > :03:04.order about border control in the pilot programme. A general sense

:03:04. > :03:09.that I'm getting from the tweets - we will hear from Jo in a minute -

:03:09. > :03:12.Ed Miliband didn't quite score the goal that he hoped to do. This

:03:12. > :03:17.business of the England team not being allowed to wear poppies

:03:17. > :03:20.during the match against Spain this weekend came up several times. I am

:03:20. > :03:25.sure some of the questions were planted so the Prime Minister could

:03:25. > :03:29.make a robust statement about it. That last question there from Bill

:03:29. > :03:33.Cash was on the eurozone situation, given the enormity of what has been

:03:33. > :03:38.happening in Greece and in Italy, and how the eurozone is still the

:03:38. > :03:42.biggest threat to whether Britain goes into recession or not, it was

:03:42. > :03:47.interesting that it did barely merit a mention. You sometimes

:03:47. > :03:53.wonder if Parliament is tuned in to the big issues of PMQs. Yes, it is

:03:53. > :03:56.about what gets MPs going. You are right, the performance of Ed

:03:56. > :04:00.Miliband was the subject of the vast majority of the e-mails. Lots

:04:00. > :04:04.of people felt it was the wrong subject for him to go on. "A clear

:04:04. > :04:12.win for David Cameron today. Labour can never win on immigration just

:04:12. > :04:16.as the Tories can never win on the NHS." This one: "Ed Miliband is

:04:16. > :04:23.failing to consolidate the gains he made over the summer. Terrible

:04:23. > :04:29.performance." This from Don Smith, "Ed Miliband was asking questions

:04:29. > :04:33.that were answered yesterday by the Home Secretary." Alan Webb, "Ed

:04:33. > :04:38.Miliband sank without trace today. He should have left the issue of

:04:38. > :04:45.border controls well alone after the mess his own party made of it.

:04:45. > :04:49.He should choose his questions more carefully." There were some in

:04:49. > :04:55.favour. This from Ian, "Ed Miliband has outperformed the Prime Minister

:04:55. > :05:00.again this week. He did very well to focus on the detail of the

:05:00. > :05:05.borders issue." Ian, "Ed had an open goal today and he scored.

:05:05. > :05:09.David struggled." Nick Robinson, where are we now on this? I have

:05:09. > :05:13.changed my mind almost every day. I began by thinking Theresa May was

:05:13. > :05:19.safe on this. By the beginning of the week, I thought it looked a bit

:05:19. > :05:22.dodgy for her. Given the statement from the Chief Executive of the

:05:22. > :05:26.Border Agency that Brodie Clark did say to him I'm going much further

:05:26. > :05:30.than the Minister told me, it would seem that could be her get out of

:05:30. > :05:33.jail card? That's right. If these sorts of stories become a he says

:05:33. > :05:39.she says in which you struggle to remember the names and the job

:05:39. > :05:43.titles and quite what it was, it is easier for a Minister. But if

:05:43. > :05:48.Brodie Clark goes before MPs next week, on Tuesday, and produces a

:05:48. > :05:52.piece of evidence that says that, "I can prove that the Home

:05:52. > :05:57.Secretary told me to do this" then she would be in real difficulty.

:05:57. > :06:00.That would be a game changer? is no indication in his statement,

:06:00. > :06:04.the head of the union that represents him was on Newsnight, he

:06:04. > :06:07.didn't suggest there was such evidence. So my instinct is it's

:06:07. > :06:12.awkward for the Home Secretary. It's not been comfortable for her.

:06:12. > :06:17.It will fuel anxiety about immigration that was anyway coming

:06:17. > :06:20.up through the largely Tory supporting newspapers and because

:06:20. > :06:26.there's another of these petitions that will put another motion on the

:06:26. > :06:30.order paip probably of the House of Commons about a new limit -- Order

:06:30. > :06:35.Paper probably of the House of Commons about a new limit. In part,

:06:35. > :06:41.Ed Miliband didn't go for the detail. It was striking when Chris

:06:41. > :06:45.Lesley stood up and said, "Will you publish some papers?" The Prime

:06:45. > :06:49.Minister hasn't got an answer as to why he won't publish papers, other

:06:49. > :06:59.than say wait for an inquiry which we know won't report until January.

:06:59. > :07:01.It seems to me that would have been much more fruitful for the Leader

:07:01. > :07:06.of the Opposition. He was allowing the Prime Minister to go through

:07:06. > :07:12.the detail. The detail doesn't convict the Government yet. An open

:07:13. > :07:17.goal but he stuck the ball over the bar? I don't accept that. Today

:07:17. > :07:20.with very lengthy answers he justified entirely the actions that

:07:20. > :07:23.were taken and praised the virtues of the process. Most people

:07:23. > :07:27.watching who think that the Government's first responsibility

:07:27. > :07:30.is to maintain its borders will think that is out of touch.

:07:30. > :07:35.didn't say the pilot was unacceptable. He said the Border

:07:35. > :07:39.Agency going much further than the pilot was unacceptable? The pilot

:07:39. > :07:42.that covered all these ports, airports, every single person in

:07:42. > :07:46.the European Economic Area, means the Home Secretary has no idea how

:07:46. > :07:49.many people came in unchecked over that period and didn't bother to

:07:49. > :07:54.find out. That was acceptable? I don't think so. I think people are

:07:54. > :08:00.very worried about this. I thought Ed Miliband spoke to those worries.

:08:00. > :08:05.The Prime Minister wasn't regarding the pilot as unacceptable, he was

:08:05. > :08:09.regarding what Brodie Clark is claimed to have done as

:08:09. > :08:12.unacceptable. He may be right, he may be wrong, but I don't see the

:08:12. > :08:16.inconsistency between yesterday and today? Well, I think the public

:08:16. > :08:20.will see his words yesterday where he said what had happened was

:08:20. > :08:23.unacceptable. If he is saying today that it was only the extensions to

:08:23. > :08:28.the pilot that were unacceptable, or is he saying the fact that you

:08:28. > :08:33.have, we have no idea how many people entered the country without

:08:33. > :08:36.proper checks from a huge area like the European Economic Area over a

:08:36. > :08:40.large timescale? If he is saying that is acceptable, he is more out

:08:40. > :08:44.of touch than we thought. It may or may not be acceptable. What

:08:44. > :08:47.wouldn't be acceptable to this Government since it was obviously

:08:47. > :08:51.acceptable to the last Government because you did the same? Year on

:08:51. > :08:54.year, we tightened up security checks... There were times when you

:08:54. > :09:00.opened our borders, that is accepted? We are talking about the

:09:00. > :09:03.checks at borders. We tightened up... No, no. We introduced the

:09:03. > :09:07.technology... There were periods when you opened our borders in a

:09:07. > :09:12.similar way to this pilot? What do you mean? There were times when you

:09:12. > :09:15.said you don't need to do this, the normal checks you have to do. There

:09:15. > :09:19.were times at Heathrow Airport when you said don't look at those who

:09:20. > :09:24.are on a possible wanted list. So it's happened before under both

:09:24. > :09:28.governments? What we are saying is... But do you accept that?

:09:28. > :09:31.What I accept is that all governments - and there was a

:09:31. > :09:36.consensus on this - all governments, Labour and Conservative, wanted to

:09:36. > :09:42.maintain and increase and tighten border controls. That doesn't

:09:42. > :09:46.seem... That seems to have happened. The borders are not that tight.

:09:46. > :09:51.They seem to be for reasons of expediency that you didn't want a

:09:51. > :09:55.lot of people queuing to get into the country. Last summer, some

:09:55. > :10:00.people were having to wait three hours at Heathrow to get in? What

:10:00. > :10:03.we were doing on the pilot was getting proper judgment and risk

:10:03. > :10:06.assessment by individual Border Agency officials. That is why it is

:10:06. > :10:09.so important what the Prime Minister said, it increased the

:10:09. > :10:12.number of illegal immigrants that were detected. It was telling the

:10:13. > :10:17.staff you have to exercise some discretion, but it was not on the

:10:17. > :10:22.scale that appears to have happened. Labour are making heavy weather of

:10:22. > :10:26.it. There was a pilot. We believe... It was agreed by Home Office

:10:27. > :10:32.Ministers? The pilot. You didn't know about it? It was a legitimate

:10:32. > :10:36.operation. I didn't know about it. What then clearly happened was that

:10:36. > :10:40.Brodie Clark went way beyond the agreed terms of the pilot and we is

:10:40. > :10:44.now have a clear statement by the head of the UK Border Agency, he

:10:44. > :10:47.has endorsed what the Home Secretary said. Nick? Let me

:10:47. > :10:53.confess, I have been out of the country for a couple of days while

:10:53. > :10:57.this story was brewing up. I was in Brussels. The slight curiosity is

:10:57. > :11:02.we have the Prime Minister saying more people arrested, more guns

:11:02. > :11:06.were found. Is this a policy a failure or a success? That is a

:11:06. > :11:10.very good question. Both parties are desperate to show and sound

:11:11. > :11:13.like they are tough. Of course, there is an element in which all

:11:13. > :11:19.border controls are a balance between the consumer element which

:11:19. > :11:25.is do people wait for hours and get very cross about it? There are

:11:25. > :11:31.businessmen waiting, families with kids. Versus security. There is a

:11:31. > :11:38.balance. Let me ask, was the pilot a success? The pilot has not been

:11:38. > :11:42.evaluated. You have been boasting... The purpose of the pilot was to get

:11:42. > :11:48.focus on people coming through the country's borders that were thought

:11:48. > :11:52.to be potentially risky. Not have simply a tick in the box system and

:11:52. > :11:55.you can be a seven-year-old on a regulated school trip or a 25-year-

:11:55. > :11:58.old with something in your past and you are all treated the same way.

:11:58. > :12:03.The purpose was to get the Border Agency officials to exercise some

:12:03. > :12:08.judgment and focus on the people who they thought were the likely

:12:08. > :12:17.risk cases. You got 10% more... That appears to be the reason why

:12:17. > :12:18.we have more illegal immigrants. it was a success? The 10% is not a

:12:19. > :12:23.proper evaluation? The pilot was agreed by Ministers and we stand by

:12:23. > :12:26.the need to have a pilot. What we don't stand by was Brodie Clark

:12:26. > :12:30.doing something different. I don't understand how you can claim it

:12:30. > :12:36.caught out 10% more people than the old system and yet not be prepared

:12:36. > :12:39.to say it was a success? We know those figures. We don't know.

:12:39. > :12:44.we do know is the reason for the pilot - it is being suggested the

:12:44. > :12:47.reason of the pilot was to weaken border controls. The purpose was to

:12:47. > :12:51.strengthen and make more effective our border controls. The Prime

:12:51. > :12:56.Minister had a teed up question on FIFA's ban on the England team

:12:56. > :12:58.wearing poppies. He wants to say something strongly about it? Yes.

:12:59. > :13:03.He's offering himself around to television companies to say

:13:03. > :13:10.something. He thinks this is an issue he feels strongly about and

:13:10. > :13:14.he knows the country will feel strongly about it as well. Should

:13:15. > :13:19.the FIFA, should the England team defy the FIFA ban and walk out to

:13:19. > :13:23.the pitch with their poppies on their chests? Yes, they should. We

:13:23. > :13:28.should tell FIFA to go and take a running jump. When the whole

:13:28. > :13:31.country comes together this weekend for remembrance, it is a complete

:13:31. > :13:36.disgrace that England's national team would not be allowed to wear

:13:36. > :13:40.the poppy with pride as everyone else does. Should the England team

:13:40. > :13:47.defy the FIFA ban? I want to see the England team wearing their

:13:47. > :13:50.poppies. They should. So they should? What I would like to see is

:13:51. > :13:57.FIFA reconsidering what will still happen. Two for defying the ban.

:13:57. > :14:01.will be looking. Nick, thank you. It was also mentioned today the

:14:01. > :14:05.issue of party funding. A couple of weeks ago I asked Lord Levy what

:14:06. > :14:09.his advice to Andrew Rosenfeld would be. Good luck was the answer!

:14:09. > :14:13.One that betrayed the idea that raising significant cash for

:14:13. > :14:16.political parties veers between hard and impossible. Once again,

:14:16. > :14:26.the issue of state-funding and donation caps are being discussed

:14:26. > :14:27.

:14:27. > :14:31.so Giles has been delving into what How political parties are funded

:14:31. > :14:35.country is a murky issue. The Conservatives have been accused of

:14:35. > :14:38.over-reliance on big-money donors like Lord Ashcroft. People do not

:14:38. > :14:42.understand why people are giving large amounts of money to political

:14:42. > :14:46.parties if they don't get something for it. Labour struggles on its

:14:46. > :14:49.almost total reliance on the unions, who do expect some backing for

:14:50. > :14:53.their buck. If you were to ask every trade unionist, do you want

:14:53. > :14:57.to give the number to the Labour Party, significant numbers will say

:14:57. > :15:01.no. So the minute you shine the light of transparency on the

:15:01. > :15:03.process, the amount of money coming from trade unions will drop.

:15:03. > :15:07.the Liberal Democrats to have always had significantly less than

:15:07. > :15:13.the other two ended up with their biggest donor, Michael Brown, being

:15:13. > :15:17.sent down as a crook. But it's Lib Dem leader and deputy Nick Clegg

:15:17. > :15:24.who has asked for the standards of public life Commission to construct

:15:24. > :15:28.a new format to go under approval, the 4th in seven years, the last,

:15:28. > :15:34.the �50,000 cap on donation in the Phillips inquiry, which narrowly

:15:34. > :15:36.failed. The proposals were fair to all sides, and �50,000 of that what

:15:36. > :15:41.was something we could have lived with on the Labour side and the

:15:41. > :15:44.others could have as well. I don't think either side particularly

:15:44. > :15:48.wanted to succeed, and Labour less. The trade unions basically killed

:15:48. > :15:52.the talks of behind the scenes. No matter what we said at the time,

:15:52. > :15:56.that is what happened. Sorting party funding has always

:15:56. > :16:00.traditionally been like fitting a tyre that is too small on a bike

:16:00. > :16:03.wheel. It is hard. You think once you've tucked in and sorted the

:16:03. > :16:08.problem with the unions and Labour, you have the donors and the Tory

:16:08. > :16:14.problem. You try and sort that and that pops back out again. Sort them

:16:14. > :16:17.both and you have the Lib Dems saying this disadvantages us. If

:16:17. > :16:21.you sort out all three, you discover that what you have come up

:16:21. > :16:24.with won't appeal to the public. It is actually very difficult and it

:16:24. > :16:31.has never been done and it always leaves democracy campaigners more

:16:31. > :16:36.deflated than pumped up. The trick is to devise a scheme for that in

:16:36. > :16:40.return for parties accepting a cap on donation, they get state funding,

:16:40. > :16:44.which exists a short money for opposite -- opposition parties.

:16:44. > :16:48.This would either be block funding, cash per vote, or more likely, a

:16:48. > :16:55.voucher system where we will tick a box for where we wish state money

:16:55. > :16:59.to go, rumours are about �3. What we won political parties to do is

:16:59. > :17:05.engage with the public and in -- earn their crust, if you like, and

:17:05. > :17:09.then a voter ticking a box seems a passive relation between voters and

:17:09. > :17:14.a political party. I think they should work harder for it, frankly.

:17:14. > :17:17.All the party leaders will have to accept, if they don't do it, while

:17:17. > :17:21.they are party leader will have to deal with the scandal affecting

:17:21. > :17:26.their party and donations. If they are not careful their personal

:17:26. > :17:35.reputation will be tarnished because, ultimately, the mix of

:17:35. > :17:44.money and votes and parties is a toxic one. Joining the now is the

:17:44. > :17:47.Liberal Democrat peer, Lord Russell. Joining me now is the Liberal

:17:47. > :17:52.Democrat peer Lord Razzall. You would obviously support this

:17:52. > :17:56.because you get more money with the three Band donation. We don't

:17:56. > :17:59.support it, because even though we would get more money, we wanted

:17:59. > :18:05.take this leaves out of British politics. All three parties could

:18:05. > :18:08.trade insults and I don't think that is appropriate in this context.

:18:08. > :18:13.The important thing about the proposals is they must be taken as

:18:13. > :18:18.a package. You cannot just pick one bit without having the other. If

:18:18. > :18:21.you're going to limit donations to the �50,000 talked about you have

:18:21. > :18:29.to introduce some element of public funding to replace the money would

:18:29. > :18:33.otherwise -- the party would otherwise lose. You mention Michael

:18:33. > :18:36.Brown, and with what happened in him, does it show that the system

:18:36. > :18:41.needs reforming? I think the parties could, with different

:18:41. > :18:45.examples, but yes, I think it does. To have that amount of money given

:18:45. > :18:48.by people, Michael Brown, and no one knows where he is, because he's

:18:48. > :18:53.on the run, and the Sunday Telegraph says he's in the

:18:53. > :18:56.Dominican Republic, he has suddenly popped up before the 2005 election

:18:56. > :19:02.and said he would give us �3 million before the election for

:19:02. > :19:05.though it was not apparent why he wanted it, but he did. We then

:19:05. > :19:09.discovered a lot later that he was convicted for all sorts of

:19:09. > :19:16.fraudulent offences. Just briefly, the state of finances or the

:19:16. > :19:24.Liberal Democrats? A not bad, actually. There was also the part

:19:24. > :19:28.of giving 10 % as a tide from your members. That is, along mode --

:19:28. > :19:32.local council groups to give an allowance to the party. -- among

:19:32. > :19:37.the local council bridge. It does sound sensible, so were due back?

:19:37. > :19:40.think all the parties want to see reform in party funding. It is a

:19:40. > :19:44.very tricky issue. The most important thing was alluded to in

:19:44. > :19:48.the package, and the public really have to have a say in this. It is

:19:48. > :19:52.OK for the political parties to get together and try and square the

:19:52. > :19:55.circle but if you are going to move to something like state funding in

:19:56. > :20:00.these difficult times you have to say to the public, is this

:20:00. > :20:04.something you really want to see. So it is worth taking the time and

:20:04. > :20:06.effort and talk to the public. would come back to whether they

:20:06. > :20:09.would support the funding in that way, but what about your

:20:09. > :20:13.relationships with the unions, bearing in mind Labour is so

:20:13. > :20:18.reliant on the unions of funding, it would completely eradicated in

:20:18. > :20:23.terms of the sorts of the size of money you get. We do not know what

:20:23. > :20:26.the proposals are. Would you back the �50,000 cap? That would be

:20:26. > :20:30.50,000 from each union. We would look at a cap, but it's a world

:20:30. > :20:32.away from looking at an organisation like a trade union.

:20:32. > :20:36.When we talk about trade union money we are talking about

:20:36. > :20:40.individuals, low-paid, part-time workers, in unison, who choose to

:20:40. > :20:45.give �3 a year through their political fund to the Labour Party

:20:45. > :20:48.to support campaigns. That is what we are talking about. There is a

:20:48. > :20:52.difference between a trade union donation what he's talking about,

:20:52. > :20:56.where the union it is affectingly acting as a collecting agency for

:20:56. > :21:02.membership and nobody is saying that should be attacked. But there

:21:02. > :21:05.is a suggestion and has come from Conservatives claiming that in

:21:05. > :21:09.terms of influence, the people will check with the unions before they

:21:09. > :21:12.make amendments to bills. I think that is a nonsense. As

:21:12. > :21:16.parliamentary numbers we get lobbied all the time, not just by

:21:16. > :21:19.trade unions and why were we not listen to public sector workers and

:21:19. > :21:23.manufacturing in the same way we get lobbied by charities and all

:21:23. > :21:26.kinds of organisations. Don't forget, in February the

:21:26. > :21:34.Conservatives were auctioning off jobs in the City, internships for

:21:34. > :21:37.family members. At a Conservative Party fundraiser, this was. People

:21:37. > :21:41.shouldn't really be throwing rocks at Labour on this. David Willetts,

:21:42. > :21:48.in terms of a cap on donation, that would affect the Conservative Party

:21:48. > :21:54.income. We accept the principle of a cap on donations. And �50,000?

:21:54. > :21:57.we have to see what the proposals are, but if there were some

:21:57. > :22:02.suggestions earlier of a cap at �10,000, then the trade-off you

:22:02. > :22:05.face, if you go that low, you increase the need for public

:22:05. > :22:10.spending instead to replace the money you have lost from donations.

:22:10. > :22:13.I think we have to be very careful of anything involving higher public

:22:13. > :22:18.spending and the taxpayers putting in more money. That is not what

:22:18. > :22:22.people want to see happening when times are tough. So you would not

:22:22. > :22:25.be in favour of going to the public to ask for more money? We have to

:22:25. > :22:27.see the proposals, but we are sceptical of anything involving

:22:27. > :22:36.more public spending when we are trying to get a grip on public

:22:36. > :22:40.spending. It is a tiny amount, and as shown in your film, one way is

:22:40. > :22:44.to get people to tick a box, but one of the other ideas around for a

:22:44. > :22:48.long time is that it should match- up to funding so any political

:22:48. > :22:53.party raising so much by a small donation should gets the same back

:22:53. > :22:57.from the Treasury. We don't want to go to the West German system where

:22:57. > :23:03.they are simply funded by the taxpayer irrespective of their

:23:03. > :23:07.contributions made by individual voters. Something else that does

:23:07. > :23:10.matter is that trade unions are individuals, they aggregated to buy

:23:10. > :23:19.policies like the work agreement and there has to be tackled as a

:23:19. > :23:21.priority in a funding proposal. I'm going to read this introduction

:23:21. > :23:25.because Andrew's too busy tweeting. And rest assured, when you read

:23:25. > :23:28.tweets from him they really are from him. But Twitter is awash with

:23:28. > :23:38.imposters who are pretending to be celebrities from the world of

:23:38. > :23:48.

:23:48. > :23:52.The Westminster village is all twittering about fake tweeters.

:23:52. > :23:57.Steve Hilton spends all day thinking big thoughts and apart

:23:57. > :23:59.from when he is apparently tweeting things like this when the Daily

:23:59. > :24:05.Telegraph publish unflattering pictures of him drinking a cup of

:24:05. > :24:10.tea. Total Mystique failed to! Launching an inquiry into Daily

:24:10. > :24:16.Telegraph picks. Was rehearsing Dave X is in Number Ten with coffee

:24:16. > :24:21.mug to talk to media. Electric! hoaxers Aviv and struck at

:24:21. > :24:24.Buckingham Palace. How do you explain this tweed from the Queen?

:24:24. > :24:27.One can confirm that the Olympic torch will visit Clarence house

:24:27. > :24:34.where it will be used to light a cigarette for the Duchess of

:24:34. > :24:39.Cornwall. Even fellow hacks have not escaped. Check out this tweet

:24:39. > :24:46.posted from g 20 by a prankster posing as Daily Mail deputy

:24:47. > :24:56.political editor Tim Shipman. me a taxi to the airport, airport!

:24:57. > :24:58.

:24:58. > :25:00.We apologise immediately. And we're joined now, as we normally are at

:25:00. > :25:06.this time on a Wednesday, by Conservative MP Peter Bone, who's

:25:06. > :25:12.wife - the famous Mrs Bone - has her very own fake Twitter account.

:25:12. > :25:20.Why do you think somebody could be to blame? Is it because you always

:25:20. > :25:27.mention her? It is quite amusing. It said I never thought I would say

:25:27. > :25:34.this, her rave from the Greeks. A referendum is good enough for them,

:25:34. > :25:40.Mr Cameron... Baking scones to calm my rage. Does Mrs Bone have a

:25:40. > :25:46.twitter account? Know. If she did, would she tweaked that? More

:25:46. > :25:50.moderate than she would tweet. Do people think it is your wife? I was

:25:50. > :25:55.alerted to it by colleagues in the House of Commons saying how funny

:25:55. > :26:00.it was. What, I said, and at the moment it is very good stuff.

:26:00. > :26:04.clean fun at the moment, not offensive, not bringing Mrs Bone

:26:04. > :26:08.into disrepute? You would be in trouble if that happened. There is

:26:08. > :26:14.a picture of her in her marigolds, so you wouldn't want to tangle with

:26:14. > :26:19.her. Is it a real picture? The S, taken from the BBC, actually. --

:26:19. > :26:22.yes. But of course the next post might say something racist or

:26:22. > :26:30.unacceptable and people have got used to thinking it is Mrs Bone.

:26:30. > :26:34.Then suddenly jumps at them. If it turned nasty, is there anything you

:26:34. > :26:39.could do about it? Not really. I think you can in the States. People

:26:39. > :26:42.can be sent to jail for five years, but here it is a real problem and

:26:42. > :26:47.the way to overcome it is to be up front and say it is not Mrs boning

:26:47. > :26:51.get that out in the public. I'm not really a great one for regulating

:26:51. > :26:55.people. But as long as people know it is not her. How do people know?

:26:55. > :26:59.By coming on shows like this, but there is a danger. For me it is not

:26:59. > :27:04.so serious, but it could be for other people. Do you have a Twitter

:27:04. > :27:12.account? Goodness gracious, no. you have the quill pen and pigeon

:27:12. > :27:16.post? I am about at that stage. Your technology has improved. Do

:27:16. > :27:20.you have a Twitter account? I have an official one. William Hague said

:27:20. > :27:25.they were all written by the civil servants. A jolly good day for the

:27:25. > :27:30.government today, etc. Do you have a Twitter account? I'd do, and

:27:30. > :27:33.there has been a big change in the last year. A bunch of journalists

:27:33. > :27:36.and politicians were talking to themselves, but in the last six

:27:36. > :27:39.months lots more people from Barnsley are following May and they

:27:40. > :27:44.are in little net works themselves and I think Twitter has changed

:27:44. > :27:50.quite a lot. The chief executive of Twitter was in town earlier this

:27:50. > :27:54.week and I discussed it with him. The point he made was that where it

:27:54. > :27:59.played an important role, they can disguise their identity and he

:27:59. > :28:05.thought that if people had been able to see who they were, history

:28:05. > :28:09.might have been different. fakes Steve Hilton has just waited

:28:09. > :28:16.to thank us for the free publicity. No doubt Mrs Bone will be doing the

:28:16. > :28:23.same. Pick the winner. What was the year? 1978. Here we go. Let me have

:28:23. > :28:28.a look. It is Jenny faster, you have one, Jenny Foster from Harvard.

:28:28. > :28:33.That is it for today. Special thanks to our guests of the day.

:28:33. > :28:38.Italian bonds have just hit 7.45 % yield which is probably be on the

:28:38. > :28:43.point of low return for Italian finances. Berlusconi's shares have

:28:43. > :28:47.slumped 10 % as well. We will be back at 11:30am tomorrow, a special