30/11/2011

:00:24. > :00:28.Good morning and welcome to The Daily Politics. 2 million public

:00:28. > :00:32.sector workers walked out in the biggest day of industrial action in

:00:32. > :00:36.a generation. Schools in England are closed, airports and hospitals

:00:37. > :00:41.are affected. They are striking about pensions. Has the Chancellor

:00:41. > :00:45.just poured or ill on the flames of the government's relationships with

:00:45. > :00:50.the public sector unions -- Port oil.

:00:50. > :00:54.Pain today, tomorrow and the day after. That was the message from

:00:54. > :00:59.George Osborne yesterday but should we just accept George's less than

:00:59. > :01:03.marvellous Medicine, what does Labour have a better cure?

:01:03. > :01:09.The coat of arms of the right honourable Mr Speaker, John Bercow

:01:09. > :01:14.to you and me, who explained what the 15,000 pound heraldic symbol we

:01:14. > :01:18.bought for the Speaker of the House of Commons really means.

:01:18. > :01:21.And in these austere times, should politicians still be intensely

:01:21. > :01:31.relaxed about the super rich, or does something need to be done

:01:31. > :01:38.about the widening gap between rich With us for the duration this

:01:38. > :01:44.morning, the Leader of the House of Lords, Tom Strathclyde. And we hope

:01:44. > :01:49.joining us soon, chukka and winner, he is probably soon -- Chuka Umunna,

:01:49. > :01:57.probably trying to get to grips with the Autumn Statement. We are

:01:57. > :02:00.told he is on his way. The estimated 2 million public sector

:02:01. > :02:04.workers are on strike today, only 13% of schools are expecting to be

:02:04. > :02:08.fully open in England. Hospital appointments have been cancelled

:02:08. > :02:12.and the Border Agency has warned of only slightly longer than average

:02:12. > :02:16.queues at airports. I am told at Heathrow, you would not know

:02:16. > :02:19.anything has happened, it is probably as miserable as ever. The

:02:19. > :02:22.government has said the action could cost the economy half-a-

:02:22. > :02:27.billion pounds, though that is just an estimate. It is not clear how

:02:27. > :02:31.they get to that. Today's strikes are about proposed changes to the

:02:31. > :02:34.pensions of employees in the public sector. The government say the

:02:34. > :02:42.offer on the table is much more generous than pensions available in

:02:42. > :02:46.the private sector. Many workers will be better off in retirement.

:02:46. > :02:49.They have condemned a strike which they say is taking place as

:02:49. > :02:52.negotiations continue. The unions say they have not met with the

:02:52. > :02:54.government for weeks and have been forced to take action to protect

:02:54. > :02:59.the pensions of some of the lowest- paid workers.

:02:59. > :03:02.The Chancellor further of curated the unions yesterday, announcing in

:03:02. > :03:06.his Autumn Statement that public sector pay increases would be

:03:06. > :03:11.capped at 1% for two years. That comes on top of a two-year pay

:03:11. > :03:15.freeze. A further squeeze on spending means there will be an

:03:15. > :03:18.additional 300,000 job losses in the public sector. The Chancellor

:03:18. > :03:22.also announced a consultation that is likely to end national

:03:23. > :03:28.collective pay bargaining. We might be able to speak to Len McCluskey

:03:28. > :03:33.from Unite later. I am delighted to say that the late

:03:33. > :03:40.Chuka Umunna has arrived. I am still alive! We will be the judge

:03:40. > :03:45.of that! Let's see if you still are by 1:00pm. I know Rachel Reeves was

:03:45. > :03:51.supposed to come, but she has duty in the house. Tom Strathclyde, we

:03:51. > :03:55.have got the strike today, some painful changes having to be made

:03:55. > :03:58.to public sector pensions. Why, given that, as the Chancellor,

:03:58. > :04:02.after yesterday, declared war on public sector workers? I don't

:04:02. > :04:06.think he has at all. We are operating against an extremely

:04:06. > :04:09.difficult economic background. We have seen more volatility and

:04:09. > :04:12.uncertainty than we have seen probably at any time since the

:04:12. > :04:15.Second World War. That is the background against which we are

:04:15. > :04:20.operating. I think what George Osborne was trying to do yesterday

:04:20. > :04:24.was give it a context, including working with the public sector,

:04:24. > :04:28.making sure we were going to invest in infrastructure and employment

:04:28. > :04:34.projects, to try to get us through what is undoubtedly going to be a

:04:34. > :04:38.very difficult period, not just for this country but the rest of Europe.

:04:38. > :04:43.I understand the broad picture. But this is the issue. Public sector

:04:43. > :04:46.workers, like most of us, will have to work longer. There have been

:04:46. > :04:50.changes in their pensions, they will not be as generous as they are.

:04:50. > :04:57.They have a pay freeze at the moment. You have now told them

:04:57. > :05:01.after the pay freeze, they will get a 1% pay rise, a maximum for two

:05:01. > :05:06.years, which in real terms will be another cut in their pay. Job

:05:06. > :05:09.losses are going to be over 700,000 in the public sector, not 400,000

:05:10. > :05:14.as you originally told us. And national collective pay bargaining

:05:14. > :05:18.is under threat. If that is not war, what would you call it? It is

:05:19. > :05:24.reality. It is being realistic and honest with the people of this

:05:24. > :05:31.country, and with the public sector. What we can afford and what we

:05:31. > :05:34.can't afford. The pain is going to come in certain sectors. What this

:05:34. > :05:38.government is trying to do is to protect the very worst of, which is

:05:38. > :05:42.why more money is going to go into education, we have protected the

:05:42. > :05:47.budget of the NHS. We are going to talk about that later. I am more

:05:47. > :05:50.concerned about the strikes at the moment, and what many will see as

:05:50. > :05:55.warn the public sector. Given the litany of things that the public

:05:55. > :06:02.sector will now have to suffer, you say you are spreading the pain, but

:06:02. > :06:05.it is a 1% pay rise following a freeze. It is a loss of hundreds of

:06:05. > :06:09.thousands of jobs, changing their pensions, it could be the end of

:06:09. > :06:14.national collective bargaining. What have you done with the banks?

:06:14. > :06:20.You have increase the bank levy from 0.075 per cent, to 0.88 per

:06:20. > :06:25.cent. Compared to what the public sector workers are going through,

:06:25. > :06:29.that is nothing. We are raising �2.5 billion out of the bank levy.

:06:29. > :06:33.That is nothing. We are not going to -- we were not going to achieve

:06:33. > :06:37.that march which is why the rate went up yesterday. The most

:06:37. > :06:47.important thing -- that much. The most important thing is how we are

:06:47. > :06:47.

:06:47. > :06:50.There are many people who already believe that the tax taken in the

:06:50. > :06:53.United Kingdom is too big. We want to inspire growth which is why we

:06:53. > :06:57.have made some of the technical changes yesterday, which will be

:06:57. > :07:00.rolled out over the course of the next few years, to make that

:07:00. > :07:03.difference. But yes, people in receipt of good pensions, some of

:07:03. > :07:10.the best in the world, they are still going to receive very good

:07:10. > :07:14.pensions, better than the private sector. We are all going to be

:07:14. > :07:19.living longer and working longer and it is entirely right. You have

:07:19. > :07:24.not reformed pensions in Parliament. I think we have. Not by much. I am

:07:24. > :07:29.confused about Labour's position on the strike. In your party's view,

:07:29. > :07:33.should be struck be going ahead. Perhaps if I explain it like this,

:07:33. > :07:37.we are talking about people here. Wijk -- I have very close friends

:07:37. > :07:41.and family who are out taking industrial action today. I can't

:07:41. > :07:44.support the mass disruption it causes for constituencies whose

:07:44. > :07:52.children can't go to school today. I simply can't condemn it either.

:07:52. > :07:56.It is very revealing, the Commons Many of the arguments the

:07:56. > :07:59.government has been putting forward is the sustainability of public

:07:59. > :08:02.pensions going forward. All the has been talking about his deficit

:08:02. > :08:07.reduction. The thing that greets for public-sector workers is they

:08:07. > :08:12.are being asked to pay a 3% tax -- that grates. Because the extra

:08:12. > :08:18.monies are not going into the extra different schemes, it is going back

:08:18. > :08:21.into the general pot. Let's remember, if you look at the medium

:08:21. > :08:25.pension drawings for a public sector pension at the moment, it is

:08:25. > :08:29.not a lot of money. If you broke your leg on the way back to your

:08:29. > :08:35.car, Andrew, who is going to be wheeling you around? A member of a

:08:35. > :08:38.trade union. People talk about trade unions doing this and that.

:08:39. > :08:42.These are trade union members. We have people taking industrial

:08:42. > :08:47.action for the first time ever today. Given that, why don't you

:08:47. > :08:51.support it? Because I can't support the mass disruption it will cause

:08:51. > :08:54.constituents. Every time you say it, I don't support the disruption,

:08:54. > :08:57.people ask you three times, why don't you support it? I have said,

:08:57. > :09:02.we don't support the disruption but I am not going to condemn those

:09:02. > :09:08.people. I understand that, I know it is the party line. I strongly

:09:08. > :09:11.believe it. Haven't asked you to condemn it, I have just asked

:09:11. > :09:16.whether you have supported it or not, and you have answer that

:09:16. > :09:20.question, and I am grateful for that. Ed Balls has said that both

:09:20. > :09:25.sides need to give more ground. What grounds do you think the

:09:25. > :09:29.unions should give? There is a diversity of views around these

:09:29. > :09:33.things amongst the different unions. The PCS has a different view to

:09:33. > :09:37.other unions. Think there has got to be an acceptance that we are

:09:37. > :09:42.going to have to work for longer and contribute more in the long

:09:42. > :09:46.term. As to what the calibration of that is, that is something where

:09:46. > :09:52.the details will have to be handed out by government and the trade

:09:52. > :09:57.unions -- hammered out. You don't want a trade -- you don't want a

:09:57. > :10:00.government seeking to divide up society. The role of government is

:10:00. > :10:02.to seek a resolution to this dispute. If the NHS doesn't work,

:10:02. > :10:07.the transport system doesn't work, the different elements of public

:10:07. > :10:10.service to work, we can't function as a society. You are implying if

:10:10. > :10:15.it was a Labour government in power, you would have to continue the

:10:16. > :10:19.reform of public sector pensions as well. We started reform in

:10:19. > :10:24.government in any event. Look up the numbers of days lost to

:10:24. > :10:29.industrial action during labour's time in government. Proportionate

:10:29. > :10:35.Lee, the number of days lost to industrial action under this

:10:35. > :10:45.government is dreadful -- proportionally. You could go back

:10:45. > :10:48.

:10:48. > :10:53.as far as you want! What about the We are grateful that neither of you

:10:53. > :10:57.is on strike, so we will continue. Let's come to the Autumn Statement.

:10:57. > :11:03.I think we can now talk to Len McCluskey in central London, can

:11:03. > :11:11.you hear us, the general secretary of Unite? Yes, I can. Just about, I

:11:11. > :11:15.think. I have a big, powerful voice, so I will use it. Chuck it women

:11:15. > :11:25.are from the Labour Party has just said that he can't support the

:11:25. > :11:26.

:11:26. > :11:29.strike action -- the chukka and the What do you say? The only

:11:30. > :11:34.irresponsibility is the government's. They have had nine

:11:34. > :11:39.months to try to sort that out. The Government's is responsible for

:11:39. > :11:43.bringing teachers, nurses, care workers, people who look after the

:11:43. > :11:45.vulnerable people in our society, decent public sector workers, they

:11:45. > :11:49.are the ones responsible for bringing them out on strike.

:11:49. > :11:52.Workers don't like taking strike action, they do it because they

:11:52. > :11:57.feel there is a deep sense of injustice and nobody is listening

:11:57. > :12:00.to them. That is what the case is with this government. It is a

:12:00. > :12:05.question of laying the blame where this squarely lies, at the feet of

:12:05. > :12:08.the government. Rather than laying the blame with the government or

:12:08. > :12:12.them laying it with you, what about trying to reach some sort of

:12:12. > :12:15.negotiated settlement. You don't want to be on strike, the

:12:15. > :12:20.government wants to make a deal, we have just heard on the programme it

:12:20. > :12:25.is time for both sides to give ground. What ground will you give?

:12:25. > :12:29.The reality is, of course we would love to reach an agreement. That is

:12:29. > :12:32.what trade unions do. The media try to project as and the Tories have

:12:32. > :12:37.tried to project as as people who just want to have strikes all the

:12:37. > :12:41.time, that's nonsense. 95% of our time is spent with companies and

:12:41. > :12:46.governments, trying to reach agreement. You have a government

:12:46. > :12:55.that is totally in transient. How has it taken the Government nine

:12:55. > :12:58.months -- totally intransigent. Why did it take them that long? Because

:12:58. > :13:03.the government are playing games. They believe they have the public

:13:03. > :13:07.on their side, they are playing games with people's jobs, pensions,

:13:07. > :13:11.and they are decent people who serve our community, and it has

:13:11. > :13:15.backfired on them. The opinion polls are showing that. 60% of the

:13:15. > :13:19.public support the strike, 80% of Labour supporters. Which is why the

:13:19. > :13:24.Labour leadership need to listen. Instead of trying to sit on the

:13:24. > :13:28.sidelines... I know Ed Miliband has condemned the government, he won't

:13:28. > :13:32.condemn the strikers, that is the right thing to do. We want fairness

:13:32. > :13:37.and justice. Of course we want to get around the negotiating table to

:13:37. > :13:41.resolve our differences. Thank you very much.

:13:41. > :13:44.After delivering yesterday's Autumn Statement, which was more like a

:13:44. > :13:47.full-blown budget, as if to emphasise that the economic crisis

:13:47. > :13:50.stretches beyond our shores, the Chancellor went to Brussels again,

:13:50. > :13:56.to attend another meeting of European finance ministers, to

:13:56. > :14:01.discuss, you have guessed it, the Uruzgan crisis. The Office for

:14:01. > :14:06.Budget Responsibility said that if the euro falls apart, the impact on

:14:06. > :14:10.our economy would be unquantifiable. You may not be able to count it but

:14:10. > :14:14.we know it would not be good, and it could be disastrous. Even if we

:14:14. > :14:19.avoid that, the predictions of the forecast delivered by the

:14:19. > :14:23.Chancellor yesterday were grim, even without a eurozone meltdown.

:14:23. > :14:28.Yesterday, the Chancellor had to admit growth would be much lower,

:14:28. > :14:33.just 0.7% next year, and that he would need to borrow �111 billion

:14:33. > :14:38.more than expected over the next five years. And that the government

:14:38. > :14:42.won't meet its target of balancing the structural deficit until 2017.

:14:42. > :14:47.That is two years later than they had hoped. The Chancellor has

:14:47. > :14:48.blamed this deterioration in the blamed this deterioration in the

:14:48. > :14:52.public finances on three factors. External inflation caused by it

:14:52. > :14:56.rises in energy and commodity prices. The eurozone crisis, and

:14:56. > :15:01.that after the boom years, the bust was deeper than anyone realised,

:15:01. > :15:05.implicitly blaming Labour for how they had left the economy. Labour

:15:05. > :15:11.say the Chancellor's plan a has failed colossally, and Britain's

:15:11. > :15:15.tepid growth and spiralling deficit have been caused by the car -- the

:15:15. > :15:25.Chancellor cut into deep and too fast. They are warning of a

:15:25. > :15:35.borrowing bombshell -- cutting too deep. It means a lot more spending

:15:35. > :15:37.

:15:37. > :15:42.Should we have a moment's silence for the death of plan? Certainly

:15:42. > :15:47.not. -- Plan A. It is only the media that have got so excited

:15:47. > :15:51.about plan and Plan B and what Ed Balls wants and all the rest of it.

:15:51. > :15:58.George Osborne -- George Osborne is entirely right to react about what

:15:58. > :16:05.is going on in the real economy. To react from the report from the OBR.

:16:05. > :16:11.He has been responsible and honest with the British people. That is

:16:12. > :16:16.the best way to be. The alternative which Ed Balls will explain his to

:16:16. > :16:21.go out and borrow even more money. But that is what you do. We're

:16:22. > :16:31.going to have to borrow even -- a little bit more money for. A little

:16:32. > :16:32.

:16:32. > :16:37.bit? -- how much is it. Another �147 billion. You are going to

:16:37. > :16:43.borrow �110 billion more than you said he would, six months ago.

:16:43. > :16:49.Whichever way you cut it, adding �110 billion to the borrowing you

:16:49. > :16:51.intended in March of this year would seem to anybody else to be a

:16:51. > :16:55.failure of your budget consolidation strategy. Otherwise

:16:55. > :16:59.you would not be borrowing that amount of money. The figures that

:16:59. > :17:03.we based the forecast on were independently produced and they

:17:03. > :17:06.have been independently produced again. What did those people say?

:17:06. > :17:11.They said that there has been an increase in energy and commodity

:17:12. > :17:15.prices which has created higher inflation. They said that the boom

:17:15. > :17:22.in the 2007 was higher than anyone had anticipated and therefore the

:17:22. > :17:26.bust has been greater and deeper. We have had to adjust our figures

:17:26. > :17:33.because of these external changes. He has also warned that if the

:17:33. > :17:38.Eurozone crisis gets worse, then we really are in a pickle. But isn't

:17:38. > :17:44.it part of the plant that living standards would now stall for 14

:17:44. > :17:48.years? 14 years? It shows you the depth of the seriousness that we

:17:48. > :17:56.are now in. How did the markets react to what George Osborne was

:17:56. > :17:59.saying? Yields on UK bonds actually fell, not by much but I a -- but by

:17:59. > :18:07.a little bit. That is a better position than our neighbours and

:18:07. > :18:11.competitors are in. It is early days. Chuka Umunna, are you

:18:11. > :18:16.criticising the Government for borrowing more than it planned?

:18:16. > :18:24.we are. If you compare it to the forecasts from last year, they will

:18:24. > :18:28.be borrowing �158 billion more. Let me explain why. You're criticising

:18:29. > :18:33.them for borrowing more? Carry on. The reason is that the Government

:18:33. > :18:36.said that the sole test, and the mainstay of their ambition for

:18:36. > :18:41.their time in government is deficit-reduction. They said that

:18:41. > :18:45.by sticking to Plan A, that they would reduce the deficit and bring

:18:45. > :18:50.down our debt. That is a starting- point for their argument. Our

:18:50. > :18:56.starting point is jobs and growth. Unless you have jobs and growth,

:18:56. > :19:00.you are not able to reduce borrowing in the immediate future.

:19:00. > :19:04.With 2.6 million people out of work, that is people we are having to pay

:19:04. > :19:09.unemployment benefit to and who are not paying income tax. The best way

:19:09. > :19:13.to deal with fewer debts is to get people into work and you need

:19:13. > :19:18.growth. The problem was that in the wake of the Comprehensive Spending

:19:18. > :19:23.Review this time last year, and Bloomberg presented an interesting

:19:23. > :19:29.graph on this, sorry to mention another broadcaster. It's all right,

:19:29. > :19:37.nobody watches this! Confidence nosedived after that. Hold on. All

:19:37. > :19:42.of that may be right. But explain to me how you can criticise the

:19:42. > :19:49.Government borrowing more than it plans and yet still say that it

:19:49. > :19:54.should stay borrowing even more? First of all, the Government set

:19:54. > :19:56.this test, of saying that it was all about whether they reduce

:19:56. > :20:01.borrowing or 0. We're just scrutinising what they said they

:20:01. > :20:05.would do. The Government, let us get this straight. The Government

:20:05. > :20:11.is about to borrow �111 billion more than it said it would. You

:20:11. > :20:14.would borrow more than that. necessarily. I am not able... I

:20:14. > :20:18.would would say to you that we would have done things differently.

:20:18. > :20:22.The situation we would be in now would be different. If you're

:20:22. > :20:28.asking me... You do not know that you would have done it differently.

:20:28. > :20:34.Yes, I do. Can I remind you, by May of 2010, the British economy had

:20:34. > :20:38.been put on negative watched by the ratings agencies, and can you tell

:20:38. > :20:42.us what our bond heels were? can't give you a figure. But the

:20:42. > :20:48.bond yields were falling. They were higher than Italy's. He would not

:20:48. > :20:53.have been able to continue. You would have to have done something

:20:53. > :20:57.different. I am slightly puzzled by the logic. That is all. I do not

:20:57. > :21:02.understand the logical saying that the Government is borrowing more

:21:02. > :21:06.than it said, and that is wrong that, and by the way, if we were in,

:21:06. > :21:09.we would borrow even more. logic is the Government said

:21:10. > :21:15.measure asked, judge what we do against weather are not we are able

:21:15. > :21:20.to reduce our debt. They are also saying that in the context of

:21:20. > :21:23.borrowing �158 billion more despite going for her �30 billion more in

:21:24. > :21:28.cuts and �10 billion more in tax, they are in that situation. They

:21:28. > :21:33.said we should judge them against bad yardstick. We are not in

:21:33. > :21:37.government, which is a great shame. But what we're saying is that we

:21:37. > :21:41.would have done things differently because what we would have done

:21:41. > :21:49.would not have choked growth. will never know if that is true.

:21:49. > :21:54.Every other country has had choked growth. In Europe, only Greece,

:21:54. > :21:58.Portugal and Cyprus have grown slower. But you are talking about

:21:58. > :22:07.differences of 0.1 or 0.2% compared to the French economy and the

:22:07. > :22:11.Italian economy. It is so small. The decimal point is irrelevant.

:22:11. > :22:16.What cuts did the Government announced yesterday? What cuts

:22:16. > :22:20.would you support and what do you not support? In relation to the

:22:20. > :22:25.things announced, for example the police cut, that is the obvious one.

:22:25. > :22:34.The ones they announced yesterday. We are going through the detail. I

:22:34. > :22:41.have the OBR reports here. You've had time. What can't do you

:22:41. > :22:49.support? The chief secretary to the Treasury was asked on Newsnight, it

:22:49. > :22:58.is a BBC put -- it is a BBC programme. We have run out of time.

:22:58. > :23:02.I want to come back to this. Danny Alexander was not able to say where

:23:02. > :23:10.the cuts were coming from. Think about it, go through the book while

:23:10. > :23:16.we are doing it. You have got about 10 minutes! What better use of

:23:16. > :23:20.taxpayers' money in these austere times? The House of Commons has

:23:20. > :23:23.spent �37,000 on a work of art to grace the walls of the Speaker's

:23:23. > :23:26.grace-and-favour apartment in the Palace of Westminster. It is a

:23:26. > :23:30.portrait of the Speaker himself, Justin Case John Bercow forgets

:23:30. > :23:34.what he looks like. I would have thought a Mr Woods have done. I'm

:23:34. > :23:39.sure he has one of those. No portrait would be complete without

:23:39. > :23:46.an ornate wooden frame featuring the coat of arms of the subject. I

:23:46. > :23:49.have one just like it in my own home. No, I haven't. Rather

:23:49. > :23:54.marvellous, isn't it. The latter represents the Speaker's rise from

:23:54. > :23:58.lowly beginnings. The balls, his love of tennis. Four of them

:23:58. > :24:03.representing England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. Very

:24:03. > :24:08.good. And the rainbow symbol of the quality, as he is a champion of the

:24:08. > :24:13.rights. Art critic Brian Sewell joins us. Can we start with the

:24:13. > :24:20.portrait? Would you be happy to have that hanging in your home?

:24:20. > :24:28.But then, I am not the Speaker. You have a problem here. In northern

:24:28. > :24:33.Europe particularly, Germany and England, to raise six centuries of

:24:33. > :24:41.painting portraits of people when they become important. There is

:24:41. > :24:45.also a tradition of inventing coats of arms and the rest of it for them.

:24:45. > :24:49.He is doing what has been done many times before. I do not think you

:24:50. > :24:53.should necessarily criticise him for doing that. There is some

:24:53. > :24:58.justification for criticising the painting. What do you think of it?

:24:58. > :25:03.I think it is a pretty poor painting for 37,000 quid. You think

:25:03. > :25:08.we have been fleeced? 15,000 would have gone the frame.

:25:08. > :25:14.This in a friends are important. -- gone on the frame. -- they say the

:25:14. > :25:18.frames are important. The further up the portrait painter's 3 you go,

:25:18. > :25:24.the more the fee will be. This is a young man climbing, and they have

:25:24. > :25:28.given him quite a push. If you were writing a headline. I would never

:25:28. > :25:35.write a headline. How would you title it if you were looking at

:25:35. > :25:41.that portrait? It reminds me of some of fumbling school master in a

:25:41. > :25:46.shambles of a public school trying to keep order. In essence, that is

:25:46. > :25:51.exactly what he is doing. There is a truth in that. It does not

:25:51. > :25:56.flatter him. I criticise most of all the clothes he is wearing. He

:25:56. > :26:05.looks as though he is wearing a school masters academic gown. He

:26:05. > :26:09.has a school masters tie on. He does not look a bit grand. Former

:26:09. > :26:14.speakers looked like speakers. does not look a park. You do not

:26:14. > :26:20.think he looks like the Speaker? looks like a bloke that you dug up

:26:21. > :26:25.from Essex. What is wrong with Essex? What is wrong with Essex?!

:26:25. > :26:30.Can I look at the coat of arms here? Again, what do you think? We

:26:30. > :26:35.have had the symbolism of the ladder and these knives are

:26:35. > :26:40.representative of where he went to university. There is a university

:26:40. > :26:44.in Essex? Yes, there is. You have learnt something new on the

:26:44. > :26:51.programme. What do you think of the coat of arms? I think that is

:26:51. > :27:00.pretty poor stuff. It would be Christmas game you could play, like

:27:00. > :27:04.Monopoly. You have a coat of arms, what do you think? One should never

:27:04. > :27:10.criticise someone else's autobahns. That is properly heraldic. Why did

:27:10. > :27:15.you have won? I have got absolutely no idea. These are very ancient.

:27:15. > :27:24.They are heraldic symbols, bears heads. His looks more posh than

:27:24. > :27:30.yours. That is a snob thing. The unforgivable thing is that the

:27:30. > :27:38.Speaker is perfectly ordinary. He has no lineage going back to 1066

:27:38. > :27:43.or thereabouts. He is not it sugar, he is not a Yorkshire or a

:27:43. > :27:48.Lancastrian. He is nothing. He comes from Essex. He is nobody. But

:27:49. > :27:54.he has the effrontery to say he is going to make himself equal.

:27:54. > :28:01.going to have to go. Thank you very much. On that note, John Bercow...

:28:01. > :28:04.You can read the e-mails after that. We have spared no expense on the

:28:04. > :28:08.Daily Politics. Our graphics department have spent almost all

:28:08. > :28:14.morning in between trying to make sense of yesterday's Autumn

:28:14. > :28:18.Statement preparing one of hour call to arms. Let us have a look. -

:28:18. > :28:27.- hour Court of farms. You can see the feral beasts of the media in

:28:27. > :28:37.there. Some snow leopards are in there. That is me. The Latin phrase,

:28:37. > :28:40.how do you pronounce it? It means guess the year in Latin. Big Ben is

:28:40. > :28:46.up there, showing a location, the Union Jack demonstrating a

:28:46. > :28:53.commitment to politics from all of the United Kingdom. And the Daily

:28:53. > :28:56.Politics mug is there as well. We will remind you how to win one

:28:56. > :29:06.of those in a minute but let's see if you can remember when this

:29:06. > :29:34.

:29:34. > :29:44.# The finger of suspicion points at you. # Every Democrat voted against

:29:44. > :29:46.

:29:46. > :29:54.us. # When you've got friends and neighbours, all the world is a

:29:54. > :30:03.happier place. # Friends and neighbours put a

:30:03. > :30:13.smile on the gloomiest face. The Tate is broken and so is the

:30:13. > :30:31.

:30:31. > :30:36.To begin with a chance of winning, send your answers to a special e-

:30:36. > :30:46.mail address. -- to be in. We're going to go straight over to

:30:46. > :30:50.I am sure the whole House will wish to join me in paying tribute to

:30:50. > :30:53.Rifleman Sheldon steal from Fifth Battalion the rivals. He was a

:30:53. > :30:57.highly respected shoulder who achieved a great deal and showed

:30:57. > :31:01.much potential during his time with his army -- respected soldiers. Our

:31:01. > :31:04.thoughts should be with his family, friends and colleagues, his courage

:31:05. > :31:08.and dedication were never be forgotten by our dedication. This

:31:08. > :31:13.morning I had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others

:31:13. > :31:16.and I shall have further such meetings later today. Can I join

:31:17. > :31:21.the Prime Minister in paying tribute to Braid serviceman who

:31:21. > :31:28.gave his life for our country. Our thoughts go to his family at this

:31:28. > :31:33.very, difficult time. My constituency has high unemployment

:31:33. > :31:36.with great potential, and would benefit greatly from a �200 million

:31:36. > :31:40.private sector led investment in motor sport. Can I ask him to

:31:40. > :31:46.provide support for enhanced capital allowances for enterprise

:31:46. > :31:48.zones in Wales, including Blaenau- Gwent, as well as in England.

:31:48. > :31:52.thank the honourable gentleman for that question. Can I congratulate

:31:52. > :31:57.him and the other 37 members who have opted to grow additional

:31:57. > :32:02.facial hair in this month of November. It is a very good way,

:32:02. > :32:07.for those who are capable of doing so, of raising the profile of this

:32:07. > :32:10.important of us, prostrate cancer. We are committed to providing

:32:10. > :32:14.enhanced allowances, discussions are ongoing with devolved

:32:14. > :32:19.administrations about enhance allowances within enterprise zones.

:32:19. > :32:23.We will do what we can in Blaenau- Gwent to help. We are electrifying

:32:23. > :32:29.the line to Cardiff, we are looking for improvements on the M4. One of

:32:29. > :32:31.the announcements made by my right honourable friend, the Chancellor,

:32:31. > :32:39.will have consequences for additional spending on

:32:39. > :32:42.infrastructure. I am confident that the Prime Minister, like me, would

:32:42. > :32:47.praised the courage and professionalism of the Portland

:32:47. > :32:55.search-and-rescue helicopter. I am also confident he will share with

:32:55. > :32:59.me the alarm, anger and disbelief of my constituents, and many others

:32:59. > :33:04.in this House, at that it is to be axed. Will he meet with me and the

:33:04. > :33:09.small delegation from South Dorset to discuss this urgent matter,

:33:09. > :33:15.before a disastrous mistake is made? I am very happy to meet with

:33:15. > :33:17.my honourable friend. I know how it is important that we have effective

:33:18. > :33:22.search-and-rescue services of our coast. The government is looking at

:33:22. > :33:32.the best way to deliver those services, including how they should

:33:32. > :33:34.

:33:34. > :33:39.be paid for, and it is important Mr Speaker... Can I join at the

:33:39. > :33:45.Prime Minister in paying tribute to the riflemen from 5th Battalion the

:33:45. > :33:49.rifles. He served with huge commitment and courage and our

:33:49. > :33:52.deepest condolences are with his family and friends. In June at

:33:52. > :33:58.Prime Minister's Questions, the Prime Minister praised the head

:33:58. > :34:01.teacher of a first -- the school in Redditch for refusing to strike.

:34:01. > :34:05.Today she has closed first score. She says, this has been the most

:34:05. > :34:08.difficult decision of my professional life. The difference

:34:08. > :34:12.in the summer was that I had faith in the government. I have not seen

:34:12. > :34:15.any progress so I have decided to strike. Why does the Prime Minister

:34:16. > :34:19.think so many decent, hard-working public sector workers, many of whom

:34:19. > :34:26.have never been on strike before, feel the government simply isn't

:34:26. > :34:30.listening. The reason people are going on strike is because they

:34:30. > :34:36.object to the reforms that we are making to public sector pensions.

:34:36. > :34:43.But I believe those reforms are absolutely essential, and as the

:34:43. > :34:48.former Labour Pensions Secretary Lord Patten said he -- Lord Hutton

:34:49. > :34:51.said, it is hard to imagine a better deal than this. What I would

:34:51. > :35:00.say above all to people who are on strike today, is that they are

:35:00. > :35:03.going on strike at the time when negotiations are still under way.

:35:03. > :35:11.The right honourable gentleman refers to what was said in June.

:35:11. > :35:17.Let me remind him what he said on 30th June. "the strikes are wrong,

:35:17. > :35:27.at the time when negotiations are going on." Why has he changed his

:35:27. > :35:27.

:35:27. > :35:31.mind? Mr Speaker... Order. I say to people who are engaged in

:35:31. > :35:36.orchestrated barracking, it is very tedious, from whichever side it

:35:36. > :35:40.comes. It is very juvenile, the public don't want it here it,

:35:40. > :35:50.neither do I, the leader of opposition will be heard, as the

:35:50. > :35:54.Prime Minister will be heard. Workers declared be gauche -- they

:35:55. > :35:59.declared negotiations at an end four weeks ago, they said they had

:35:59. > :36:04.made their final offer. And they haven't even met the unions for

:36:04. > :36:10.four weeks, since November 2nd. And what has the Prime Minister gone

:36:10. > :36:15.around saying to people? He has gone around saying, he is privately

:36:15. > :36:20.delighted the unions have walked into this trap. That is the reality,

:36:20. > :36:25.he has been spoiling for this fight. And the reason people have lost

:36:25. > :36:31.faith is he is not being straight with people. Will he admits that

:36:31. > :36:37.800,000 low-paid workers, one �15,000 a year or less, are facing

:36:37. > :36:43.an immediate tax rise of 3% on his pension plan? -- on 15,000. I know

:36:43. > :36:46.his entire party is paid for by the unions, but I have to say, it is

:36:46. > :36:54.extraordinary that what he has just told the House is completely and

:36:54. > :36:57.utterly untrue. The fact is, there were meetings with the trade unions

:36:57. > :37:02.yesterday, there will be meetings with the trade unions tomorrow,

:37:02. > :37:06.there will be meetings on Friday. These discussions, these

:37:06. > :37:10.negotiations are under way. Let me repeat again what he said in June.

:37:10. > :37:16.It is wrong to strike when negotiations are going on. And yet

:37:16. > :37:26.today, he now backs the strikes. Why? Because he is responsible,

:37:26. > :37:32.

:37:32. > :37:36.left-wing and week. -- he is Mr Speaker, the difference is that

:37:36. > :37:42.unlike him, I am not going to demonise the dinner lady, a cleaner,

:37:42. > :37:52.the nurse. People who earn in a week what the Chancellor pays for

:37:52. > :38:01.

:38:01. > :38:05.Mr Speaker, Mr Speaker... Order. Members on both sides of the House

:38:05. > :38:08.need to calm down. If there are senior members of the House to

:38:08. > :38:12.think it is a laughing matter, let me tell them that it isn't. The

:38:12. > :38:19.public would like to see some decent behaviour and a bit of

:38:19. > :38:23.leadership on these matters, and so would I. Mr Speaker, he is the one,

:38:23. > :38:27.and he didn't deny it, who went around saying he is privately

:38:27. > :38:32.delighted, because they have walked into his trap. And that is the

:38:32. > :38:36.reality. The truth is, it is not just public sector workers who are

:38:36. > :38:42.paying for the failure of his plan, it is private sector workers as

:38:42. > :38:46.well. Can he confirm that as a result of the cuts to tax credits

:38:46. > :38:53.announced yesterday, a family on the minimum wage, taking home �200

:38:53. > :38:58.a week, will lose a week and a half's wages? Let me be absolutely

:38:58. > :39:03.clear. I will answer his question. The Prime Minister's answer,

:39:03. > :39:06.however long it takes, will be heard. That is the principle of

:39:06. > :39:12.democracy. The Leader of the Opposition must be heard, and the

:39:12. > :39:16.Prime Minister must be heard. not welcome these strikes one bit.

:39:16. > :39:21.I think we have made a very reasonable, very fair offer to

:39:21. > :39:25.public sector workers, and that is why the former Labour Pensions

:39:25. > :39:30.Secretary says that it is hard to imagine a better deal. I don't want

:39:30. > :39:34.to see any strikes. I don't want to see schools closed, I don't want to

:39:34. > :39:39.see problems at our borders. But this government has to make

:39:39. > :39:45.responsible decisions. Let me just remind him, and the House, about

:39:45. > :39:50.the facts about the public sector pensions. Anyone earning less than

:39:50. > :39:56.�15,000 on a full-time equivalent salary will not see any increase in

:39:56. > :40:03.the contributions they have the make. In terms of the reforms we

:40:03. > :40:09.are making, a nurse, retiring on a salary of just over �34,000, today,

:40:09. > :40:16.she would get �17,000 pension. In future, she will get over �22,000

:40:16. > :40:24.pension. A teacher retiring on a salary of �37,000 would have got

:40:24. > :40:30.�19,000. She will now get �25,000. These are fare changes. I will tell

:40:30. > :40:35.you why. We rejected the idea you should level down public sector

:40:35. > :40:39.pensions. We think they should be generous. But as people live longer,

:40:39. > :40:43.it is only right and fair that they should make greater contributions.

:40:44. > :40:48.What we are seeing today is a party opposite that is in the pocket of

:40:48. > :40:54.the trade union leaders that have to ask their permission before

:40:54. > :40:57.crossing a picket line, and that take the irresponsible side of

:40:57. > :41:01.trade union leaders that have called their people out on strike,

:41:01. > :41:07.when negotiations are under way. Now let me answer his question

:41:07. > :41:12.about the low pay. Order! Order! Can I remind the Prime Minister

:41:12. > :41:15.very gently, there is a very large members -- number of members listed

:41:15. > :41:20.on the Order Paper, backbenchers who I want to hear. A brief

:41:20. > :41:26.sentence will suffice. I will wait until his next trade union-

:41:26. > :41:29.sponsored question and I will give my answer. I am proud that millions

:41:29. > :41:39.of hard-working people in this country support the Labour Party,

:41:39. > :41:40.

:41:40. > :41:46.better than millions from Lord Ashcroft. The problem is, he

:41:46. > :41:52.doesn't understand his own policy. He doesn't understand they are

:41:52. > :41:57.part-time workers earning less than 21,000, who will be hit. 800,000

:41:57. > :42:02.low-paid, part-time workers, 90% of whom are women, will be paying more,

:42:02. > :42:10.and he denies it, but it is true. It is the reality. He sits there

:42:10. > :42:17.shaking his head, he doesn't understand his own policy. And of

:42:17. > :42:22.course, he couldn't explain, or justify what he did to everyone on

:42:22. > :42:26.low pay, with the miserable deal cooked up with the Deputy Prime

:42:26. > :42:36.Minister to cut �1 billion from tax credits yesterday in the Autumn

:42:36. > :42:41.Statement. They have no explanation for why they are doing that. Order!

:42:41. > :42:46.I say to the honourable gentleman, I don't require any assistance from

:42:46. > :42:50.him. The Leader of the Opposition will come to a question. What will

:42:50. > :42:56.unemployment be at the time of the next autumn statement on the OBR

:42:56. > :43:01.If you compare the end of this Parliament with the start of this

:43:01. > :43:05.pair but -- parliament, on the Office for Budget Responsibility

:43:05. > :43:08.figures, and let us remember the Office for Budget Responsibility is

:43:08. > :43:14.independent. When he was sitting in the Treasury the figures were

:43:14. > :43:17.fiddled by the advisers. That no longer happens. There will be half

:43:17. > :43:23.a million more people in jobs, 90,000 fewer people on the claimant

:43:23. > :43:27.count and the unemployment rate will be 7.2%, instead of 8.1. That

:43:27. > :43:33.is the OBR forecast. That is not fiddled, that is independent, that

:43:33. > :43:37.is what it shows. Let me answer his question about helping the poorest

:43:37. > :43:44.people in our country. It is his party, by the way, that got rid of

:43:44. > :43:49.the 10 p tax, the biggest attack on the working poor. This government

:43:49. > :43:53.has taken 1.1 million people out of tax, frozen the petrol tax, cut the

:43:53. > :43:57.council tax, introduced free nursery care for two, three and

:43:57. > :44:01.four-year-olds, and is putting up the child tax credit by �390 this

:44:01. > :44:08.year and next. That is a record to be proud of, instead of his

:44:08. > :44:11.appalling record of attacking the working poor. With child poverty

:44:11. > :44:14.going up as a result of the autumn statement yesterday. The truth is,

:44:14. > :44:24.he couldn't answer the question, because he is too embarrassed by

:44:24. > :44:32.the truth. The Education Secretary should calm down, Mr Speaker. He

:44:32. > :44:41.tells children to behave, why doesn't he behave himself? He is to

:44:41. > :44:48.embarrass, Mr Speaker. 2.8 million people out of work -- too

:44:48. > :44:53.He is another Conservative Prime Minister for whom unemployment is a

:44:53. > :44:57.price worth paying was an because he is failing on unemployment and

:44:57. > :45:03.growth, he is failing on borrowing. He told the CBI conference last

:45:03. > :45:13.year, no ifs or buts, by 2015, we will have balanced the books. Will

:45:13. > :45:13.

:45:13. > :45:17.he now admits that on the central He complains about the level

:45:17. > :45:24.borrowing but his answer is to borrow even more. That is the

:45:24. > :45:28.illiteracy. Let me tell him what we're doing. Because we have a plan

:45:28. > :45:33.to meet the mandate and to meet the test set out by the Chancellor in

:45:33. > :45:38.his emergency budget, we have some of lowest interest rates in Europe.

:45:38. > :45:43.For every percentage point they went up under Labour, that would be

:45:43. > :45:47.another �1,000 on a family mortgage, another �7 billion out of business

:45:47. > :45:51.and another �21 billion on to our national debt. That is what you

:45:51. > :45:58.would get under Labour and that is why it is this government that will

:45:58. > :46:04.take the country through the storm. Mr Speaker, he is borrowing an

:46:04. > :46:11.extra �158 billion to pay for his economic failure. The truth theirs,

:46:11. > :46:15.his plan has failed. -- the truth is. He refuses to change course and

:46:15. > :46:20.he is making working families pay the price. At the very least, we

:46:20. > :46:26.now know that he will never, ever be able to say again "We are all in

:46:26. > :46:31.this together". Billy the of the Labour Party has taken sides today.

:46:31. > :46:37.He is on the side of the trade union leader but one strikes and

:46:37. > :46:41.not negotiations. -- that once strikes. He is on the DIS -- he is

:46:41. > :46:45.on the side of the people want to disrupt our country. And when it

:46:45. > :46:52.comes to borrowing, he cannot even bring himself to say that we are

:46:52. > :46:55.welcoming the fact that there are low interest rates. The Shadow

:46:55. > :47:05.Chancellor... Mr Speaker, they are all shouting in unison, or should

:47:05. > :47:05.

:47:05. > :47:14.ISA, -- or should I say they are all shouting on behalf of Unison.

:47:14. > :47:18.I'm not quite share -- quite sure. Let me remind the House of what the

:47:18. > :47:22.Shadow Chancellor said about lower interest rates. "Long-term interest

:47:22. > :47:28.rates are the simplest measure of monetary and fiscal policy

:47:29. > :47:33.credibility". Mr Speaker, we are being tested by these difficult

:47:33. > :47:39.economic times. We will meet that test by getting on top of our debt

:47:39. > :47:48.and the deficit. He is being tested, too, and T showing that he is weak,

:47:48. > :47:52.left-wing and irresponsible. -- and he is showing. I assume government

:47:52. > :47:55.backbenchers have some interesting listening to Jo Swinson. I would

:47:55. > :47:59.like to associate myself with the words of condolence from the Leader

:47:59. > :48:04.of the Opposition. 10 years on from the military intervention, more

:48:04. > :48:06.than 3 million girls in Afghanistan are now in school. With the

:48:06. > :48:10.conference on Monday in Germany will the Prime Minister sent a

:48:10. > :48:13.clear message that the rights of those girls should not be traded

:48:13. > :48:18.away in a false choice between women's rights and security, when

:48:18. > :48:22.the evidence shows that women's involvement in post-conflict

:48:22. > :48:24.resolution is essential for stability? For us of all, can I

:48:25. > :48:30.wish my Honourable Friend and everyone in Scotland a very happy

:48:30. > :48:34.St Andrews Day. She is absolutely right to talk about women's rights

:48:34. > :48:38.in Afghanistan. Too often, we talk about security but without talking

:48:38. > :48:42.about some of the things that that security is making possible. In

:48:42. > :48:47.2001, there were less than one million children in school and none

:48:47. > :48:52.of them were girls. Today, there are 6 million children regularly in

:48:52. > :48:55.school, 2 million of whom are girls. If those who have been in

:48:55. > :48:59.Afghanistan and have met women MPs and other leaders in that country

:49:00. > :49:05.who want to stand up for women's rights know what I incredible job

:49:05. > :49:09.those people are doing. -- know what an incredible job. Half a

:49:09. > :49:13.million more people will be on the dole in 2013 than previously

:49:14. > :49:18.thought. A terrible human cost, but how much more will be lost in tax

:49:18. > :49:26.and paid out in benefits as a result of the his Chancellor's

:49:26. > :49:31.economic failure. The OBR shows that by 2015, we will have 500,000

:49:31. > :49:36.people more or in jobs, and a lower unemployment rate. The figures do

:49:36. > :49:39.show a sharp decline in public sector employment. That is shown by

:49:39. > :49:42.the figures. There is a bigger increase in private sector

:49:42. > :49:47.employment. I would say to the party opposite and everyone in the

:49:47. > :49:51.House, if you want to reduce the amount of unemployment from the

:49:51. > :49:55.public sector, you have to reform welfare, which they oppose, you

:49:55. > :50:00.have to freeze public sector pay, which they oppose, and you have to

:50:00. > :50:04.reform public sector pensions, where we are on the side of the

:50:04. > :50:09.irresponsible trade leaders. Is the Prime Minister aware that in the

:50:10. > :50:15.last financial year, taxpayers paid over �113 million to trade unions

:50:15. > :50:18.in terms of pay, staff time and direct grants? In the light of the

:50:18. > :50:25.disruption today to hospitals and schools, is it not time to review

:50:26. > :50:28.that situation? I think it is time. The idea of full-time trade

:50:28. > :50:32.unionists working in the public sector on trade union business

:50:32. > :50:37.rather than serving the public, I do not think that is right and we

:50:37. > :50:43.will put that to an end. It is absolutely the case. The evidence

:50:43. > :50:47.today makes that even stronger. Why is the Government raising

:50:47. > :50:52.working tax credit, which helps the lowest paid workers, including

:50:52. > :50:59.those whose rages -- those whose wages are too low even to pay tax,

:50:59. > :51:02.to make work pay? As the honourable lady will know, what we're doing

:51:02. > :51:08.with child tax credits, if you take this year and next year, there is

:51:08. > :51:15.going to be a 21 and �55 increase this year, the largest ever

:51:15. > :51:21.increase. -- �255. There will be a further �255 increase next year,

:51:21. > :51:24.and they think that is the right increase in terms of tax credits.

:51:24. > :51:28.In terms of helping families and generally helping people to stay

:51:28. > :51:38.out of poverty, helping with nursery education and to get low-

:51:38. > :51:41.

:51:41. > :51:48.paid people out of tax. As the United Kingdom's Borders are being

:51:48. > :51:52.kept open today by patriotic volunteers, will the Prime Minister

:51:52. > :51:56.consider imitating the robust action of the late US President

:51:56. > :52:06.Ronald Reagan in relation to recalcitrant air-traffic

:52:06. > :52:06.

:52:06. > :52:10.controllers? I want to thank all those people, including a number of

:52:10. > :52:13.people from Number Ten Downing Street, who were helping to keep

:52:13. > :52:17.our borders open and to make sure that Heathrow and Gatwick are

:52:17. > :52:22.working properly. Perhaps I could report to the House that so far,

:52:22. > :52:26.the evidence suggests that around 40% of schools are open, less than

:52:26. > :52:29.one-third of the civil service is actually striking. In the borders,

:52:29. > :52:34.the early signs are that the contingency measures are minimising

:52:34. > :52:38.the impact. We have full Ambulance Service cover and only 18 out of

:52:38. > :52:46.900 Jobcentres have closed. Despite the disappointment of the party

:52:46. > :52:51.opposite, it looks like something of a damp squib.

:52:52. > :52:55.Can I ask the Prime Minister if he came into politics to sack three

:52:55. > :52:59.quarters of a million Civil and Public surface -- public sector

:52:59. > :53:04.workers, most of whom are women and most of whom have family's? I came

:53:04. > :53:10.into politics to try and improve the welfare of people in our

:53:10. > :53:14.country. The fact is, at the end of this public sector pension reform,

:53:14. > :53:18.those people working in the public sector will have far better

:53:18. > :53:23.pensions than most people in the private sector who are contributing

:53:23. > :53:31.that money to them. I know you are paid to ask questions, you do not

:53:31. > :53:39.have to be paid to wave as well. That is the point. Give the money

:53:39. > :53:42.back to the unions and I will come down. -- come down. Will my

:53:42. > :53:46.honourable friend join me in condemning the have Ryder's attack

:53:46. > :53:49.on our embassy in Tehran yesterday and also join me in paying tribute

:53:49. > :53:54.to our diplomatic staff serving in such difficult environments with

:53:54. > :53:59.such distinction? I certainly join my honourable friend in doing that.

:53:59. > :54:02.I'm sure that a whole house would join me in praising the incredible

:54:02. > :54:07.devotion of our staff in the foreign and diplomatic Service who

:54:07. > :54:11.often face great dangers, as they did yesterday, in Tehran. I chaired

:54:11. > :54:15.a meeting of COBRA yesterday and another this morning and spoke to

:54:15. > :54:20.our ambassador about the safety of his staff. They should be our

:54:20. > :54:25.number one concern. Making sure safety and security are maintained.

:54:25. > :54:35.After that, we will consider taking tough action in response to this

:54:35. > :54:37.

:54:37. > :54:41.appalling and disgraceful behaviour. Closed question, Mr Graham Allen.

:54:41. > :54:44.lead a committee of Cabinet ministers to look specifically at

:54:44. > :54:47.family issues including the importance of early intervention.

:54:47. > :54:50.It is central to what this government is trying to achieve and

:54:50. > :54:53.we believe that if you change the life chances of the least well-off,

:54:53. > :54:59.you have a much better chance of genuinely lifting young people out

:54:59. > :55:03.of poverty and keeping them there. I take a very close interest, as to

:55:03. > :55:05.my right honourable friends, the Education Secretary and Chancellor,

:55:05. > :55:07.in the work of the honourable gentleman and the very real

:55:07. > :55:13.difference he has made in terms of prioritising early intervention in

:55:13. > :55:17.our country. Can I thank all three party leaders for their consistent

:55:17. > :55:20.support for early intervention and their generous welcome for my

:55:20. > :55:27.reports? May ask the Prime Minister to make early intervention with

:55:27. > :55:29.babies, children and young people if the move for all departments in

:55:29. > :55:33.the next Comprehensive Spending Review so that not only will all

:55:33. > :55:37.children be able to make the best of their life chances, but also

:55:37. > :55:42.government and the taxpayer will be able to reduce the massive costs of

:55:42. > :55:45.failure, including educational under-achievement, the 120,000

:55:46. > :55:50.dysfunctional families, summers of discontent and many lifetimes

:55:50. > :55:53.wasted on benefits. The honourable gentleman makes a

:55:53. > :55:57.sensible suggestion. I think we can look at that in terms of the next

:55:57. > :56:01.spending round but, frankly, I do not even want to wait for the next

:56:01. > :56:06.spending round. That is why the family committee a lead which the

:56:06. > :56:10.Deputy Prime Minister sits on is looking at how we can make the

:56:11. > :56:14.intervention on the 120,000 most broken families effective.

:56:14. > :56:18.Governments spend a lot of money on these families. But we are not

:56:18. > :56:23.satisfied that money has been spent intervening in those families and

:56:23. > :56:26.trying to turn them around to solve the very real problems. We have a

:56:26. > :56:32.programme for doing that and I hope he will continue with his positive

:56:32. > :56:35.work. The Prime Minister will be aware

:56:35. > :56:42.that there remains 16 British overseas territories around the

:56:42. > :56:48.world where the Union Flag still proudly flies. Will the pledge that

:56:48. > :56:52.Her Majesty's government -- will he pledged that Her Majesty's

:56:52. > :56:56.government will protect, defend and cherish the loyal subjects of all

:56:56. > :57:00.those territories? I can happily give my honourable friend that

:57:00. > :57:04.guarantee. Let me add that the overseas territories will remain

:57:04. > :57:08.British as long as the people of those territories want to maintain

:57:08. > :57:12.their special relationship with us and the Union Flag will continue to

:57:12. > :57:16.fly over the governors residences. We are increasing our assistance to

:57:16. > :57:19.overseas territories. You will be familiar with what we're doing in

:57:19. > :57:28.SingTel and a with the airport. Next year, we will have the

:57:28. > :57:32.anniversary of the liberation of the Falkland Islands.

:57:32. > :57:37.constituent, Jackie, contacted me to ask how she is going to marriage

:57:37. > :57:43.-- going to manage with a 3% tax on a pension, no pay increase until

:57:43. > :57:45.2013 and rocketing fuel Bills. How is she going to feed her family?

:57:45. > :57:51.Why is the Prime Minister making people like her pay for his

:57:51. > :57:54.Government's failure? The fact is, of a whole country is having to pay

:57:54. > :58:01.for the failure of the last government to get on top of the

:58:01. > :58:07.debt and deficit. What I would say is that we are trying to help.

:58:07. > :58:10.We're freezing the council tax, we are cutting the petrol tax, we are

:58:10. > :58:14.taking 1.1 million of the poorest people out of tax altogether. That

:58:15. > :58:19.is why we are increasing the child tax credit in the way that I said.

:58:19. > :58:22.And we will continue to take those steps. What I would say to her

:58:23. > :58:26.constituents, the most dangerous thing we could do right now is lose

:58:26. > :58:33.control of our debts and see interest rates go up. When this

:58:33. > :58:38.government came to power, our interest rates were the same level

:58:38. > :58:41.as Italy. Today, Italy's interest rates are 5% higher. If that was

:58:41. > :58:45.the case, we would see higher mortgage costs, businesses going

:58:45. > :58:52.bust, and we would have a real problem. That is the policy of the

:58:52. > :58:55.party opposite. What message does the Prime Minister have today for

:58:55. > :58:59.the thousands of people who run and work in small businesses in my

:58:59. > :59:03.constituency, who worked tremendously hard to keep those

:59:03. > :59:10.businesses and the local economy going, and who can barely afford in

:59:10. > :59:13.some cases to make provision for their own pensions? The honourable

:59:13. > :59:17.lady is entirely right, that this government is squarely on the side

:59:17. > :59:21.of people who work hard and play by the rules and want to do the right

:59:21. > :59:25.things for their families. To all those people, I would say to them

:59:25. > :59:29.today, thank you for what you do to contribute to public sector

:59:29. > :59:32.pensions that are far more generous than anything you are able to

:59:32. > :59:36.afford, but for our part, we promise to make sure that public

:59:36. > :59:40.sector pensions remain strong but are affordable. What is notable

:59:40. > :59:47.about today is the party opposite has taken the side of trade union

:59:47. > :59:53.leaders that once you actually disrupt our country. -- that want

:59:53. > :59:57.to. With attack bears set to pay up to �100 million to BAE Systems to

:59:57. > :00:01.make workers redundant, is the Prime Minister aware that �100

:00:01. > :00:07.million would pay for five new Hawk planes to be built for Red Arrows?

:00:07. > :00:13.Is that not a better use of �100 million. --? I strongly support

:00:13. > :00:17.British Aerospace. They have the backing of the British Government

:00:17. > :00:23.and an enormous order book from us in terms of the Strategic Defence

:00:23. > :00:27.Review. Also, massive backing from us in terms of selling aircraft all

:00:27. > :00:30.over the world to countries that need them. Clearly, there have been

:00:30. > :00:33.issues and difficulties and that is why we have put in an enterprise

:00:33. > :00:38.zone and we will do everything we can to help those people and that

:00:38. > :00:42.company. Does the Prime Minister share my belief that until recently

:00:42. > :00:44.-- and, until recently, the belief of the Leader of the Opposition

:00:44. > :00:52.that now is not the time to strike until negotiations had been

:00:53. > :00:58.completed? Just in case anyone did not get it the first time, the

:00:58. > :01:01.strikes are wrong, at a time when the negotiations are going on.

:01:01. > :01:05.Negotiations are going on so the Leader of the Opposition should

:01:05. > :01:13.think they are wrong. He does not think they are wrong because he is

:01:13. > :01:17.in the pocket of trade union leaders. Home-help, carers, nurses

:01:17. > :01:25.and teachers are on strike for the very first time in their life. Are

:01:25. > :01:29.these hard-working people... Well, we hear laughter, but it is not

:01:29. > :01:35.laughter for hard-working families. Are these hard-working people out

:01:35. > :01:38.of touch, left-wing trade union militants, as demonised by the two

:01:38. > :01:43.parties opposite, or are they men and women who are saying enough is

:01:43. > :01:48.enough to the Government? I know people steal strongly about this

:01:48. > :01:52.but we have a responsibility to deliver an affordable public sector

:01:52. > :01:56.pension system. We have rejected the idea of levelling down public-

:01:56. > :02:00.sector pensions. What we will deliver in terms of public sector

:02:00. > :02:05.pensions is a generous and fair offer which will give public sector

:02:05. > :02:09.pensioners, unlike others in our country, a defined benefit system.

:02:09. > :02:14.That is why Lord Hutton says this is an incredibly generous offer.

:02:14. > :02:22.What a pity that the party opposite has left reality and will not back

:02:22. > :02:25.The Prime Minister will know I recently held a small business

:02:25. > :02:28.event in my constituency and many of those small businesses complain

:02:28. > :02:31.bitterly about the red tape and bureaucracy they have to jump

:02:31. > :02:35.through to deal with public bodies. What messages can the Prime

:02:35. > :02:39.Minister sent to these businesses as we look to them to help rebuild

:02:39. > :02:43.the economy to get rid of some of this obstructive, bureaucratic

:02:43. > :02:46.nonsense? My honourable friend is right to raise this and that is why

:02:46. > :02:50.we have introduced the red tape challenge, so these roles are

:02:50. > :02:54.published online and businesses and individuals can tell us which ones

:02:54. > :02:58.can be scrapped without harming public safety. We have the one in,

:02:58. > :03:01.one out well, so that ministers cannot introduce a new regulation

:03:01. > :03:04.until they have scrapped an existing one. This government is

:03:04. > :03:09.determined to scrap unnecessary regulation and help small

:03:10. > :03:13.businesses to employ more people in our country. At the last spending

:03:13. > :03:18.review, the Prime Minister said the additional rise in child tax

:03:18. > :03:22.credits could help have an impact on the child poverty. Now he has

:03:22. > :03:28.taken away that rise and freezing working tax credit, can he say how

:03:28. > :03:32.many more children will be in poverty in the coming years? What

:03:32. > :03:37.we are doing in terms of the child tax credit, it will be �390 higher

:03:37. > :03:42.than at the time of the last election. That is a �255 increase

:03:42. > :03:47.this year, that is the largest ever increase in the child tax credit,

:03:47. > :03:50.and we are adding a further �135,000 next year, an increase of

:03:50. > :03:56.5.2 per cent. That is what is happening in terms of child tax

:03:56. > :04:00.credits. Let me make this point. If you increase the pension, QC child

:04:00. > :04:07.poverty figures go up under the definition used by the party

:04:07. > :04:16.opposite. I think it -- you see a You harm the life chances of

:04:16. > :04:21.Could I ask the Prime Minister to ensure that this House remains a

:04:21. > :04:24.free and democratic institution, accountable only to voters? Does he

:04:25. > :04:31.share my indignation that some members had to ask permission from

:04:31. > :04:35.the GMB to be here today. Order, order. There is a matter of basic

:04:35. > :04:40.courtesy here. The question from the honourable lady should be heard.

:04:40. > :04:43.I think she has completed her question. But it is a lesson for

:04:43. > :04:47.the future. When questions are being asked, they should be heard

:04:47. > :04:54.with courtesy, and when the answers are given, whatever members think

:04:54. > :04:58.of them, they should be heard with courtesy. I think it is genuinely

:04:58. > :05:02.baffling to people, that somebody who said they wouldn't back strike

:05:02. > :05:06.action while negotiations were under way, has come to the House of

:05:06. > :05:16.Commons today to speak on behalf of trade union leaders. I want to say

:05:16. > :05:17.

:05:17. > :05:21.it is a flashback to Neil Kinnock, Does the Prime Minister think it

:05:21. > :05:28.fair that the Chancellor yesterday decided to take just 300 million

:05:28. > :05:33.extra from the banks, and 1.3 billion from working families in

:05:33. > :05:38.this country. Is that a fair distribution? If you look at what

:05:38. > :05:41.the Chancellor actually announced, he announced we will be taking �2.5

:05:41. > :05:47.billion off the banks, not in one year, because of a one-off bonus

:05:47. > :05:53.tanks, but every single year. -- bonus tax. This government is

:05:53. > :05:57.putting a tax on the banks and the party opposite year after year gave

:05:57. > :06:07.night at Steve Fred Goodwin, didn't we get the banks, didn't tax them

:06:07. > :06:09.

:06:09. > :06:12.properly -- gave knighthoods took While I welcome the reduction in

:06:12. > :06:16.corporation tax, and I am sure that will encourage those businesses to

:06:16. > :06:20.expand, 90 per cent of the businesses in my constituency are

:06:20. > :06:23.not incorporated and will not benefit from a reduction. Will the

:06:23. > :06:28.Prime Minister ensure that in the spring Budget, these businesses are

:06:28. > :06:31.given similar tax incentives, so that they can ensure they will grow

:06:31. > :06:35.to their full potential, both in the economy and the communities

:06:35. > :06:39.they serve. Can I praise the honourable gentleman for the our

:06:39. > :06:44.doesn't specimen looking under his nose, and the efforts he has made.

:06:44. > :06:48.We are not going to wait for the Budget, in order to help these

:06:48. > :06:52.small businesses. We have already extended the rate relief freeze for

:06:52. > :06:56.small businesses, and the National Loan guarantee Scheme will help

:06:56. > :07:06.small businesses get access to credit, that will be up and running

:07:06. > :07:11.

:07:11. > :07:15.A Minister's Questions has only just finished, the Speaker

:07:15. > :07:22.obviously enjoying himself, ticking off the House every three minutes.

:07:22. > :07:27.If he had kept in his seat, he would have kept in his -- on time.

:07:27. > :07:31.Bump -- predictably it was dominated by the strike going on in

:07:31. > :07:36.the public sector, with Mr Miliband saying he was proud for his party

:07:36. > :07:44.to be back and financed by working trade union members. And Mr Cameron

:07:44. > :07:49.saying he was, "are responsible, left wing and weak." is said that

:07:49. > :07:59.prize, so there is a chancy they believe it -- irresponsible. He

:07:59. > :08:09.

:08:09. > :08:14.Mark from London said, the Prime Minister was rattled today and the

:08:14. > :08:19.Speaker was right, the organised barracking from Tory backbenchers

:08:19. > :08:24.has become tedious. Bernard says, people are struggling to make ends

:08:24. > :08:33.meet, people are worried about a dignified old age, what a

:08:33. > :08:41.ridiculous performance from both leaders. This one says, what is to

:08:41. > :08:51.gain from calling Miliband irresponsible, left wing and wick?

:08:51. > :08:53.

:08:53. > :08:57.Jack Mason says, crocodile tears from Ed Miliband, does anyone

:08:57. > :09:00.remember the attack on private sector pensions when Gordon Brown

:09:00. > :09:04.took 5 billion out of their pensions? And this one says, is

:09:05. > :09:09.this not the worst-ever performance from the Speaker?

:09:09. > :09:19.We will leave that hanging in the air. I have had a tweet from

:09:19. > :09:23.

:09:23. > :09:27.someone who has a Latin phrase for I don't know what it means, my

:09:27. > :09:31.Latin is a little rusty, but I don't think it is nice! I shall

:09:31. > :09:36.check my dictionary later. Nick Robinson is with us, we did not

:09:36. > :09:42.have time to welcome me before, because we have a run as usual.

:09:42. > :09:48.was the celebration of meritocracy that kept me off air. What do you

:09:48. > :09:52.make of it all? There was a lot of noise. Let me just say this, there

:09:52. > :09:57.is a lot more noise when you are in the chamber than we ever here on

:09:57. > :10:03.the television. Those microphones are designed to be direction of,

:10:03. > :10:07.there is a guy in the television gallery to make sure that only one

:10:07. > :10:10.microphone is on, it is much more noisy when you are there. When I am

:10:10. > :10:14.in the press gallery, I have to lean backwards. There is a speaker

:10:14. > :10:19.in my head rest, in order to hear. It is worth remembering that when

:10:19. > :10:23.you get irritated with the Speaker sometimes. That nice tells us

:10:24. > :10:26.something, both sides in the House of Commons knew this was a defining

:10:26. > :10:32.week. Both sides knew that the disaster for the government, of

:10:33. > :10:36.having to reveal how much more borrowing it was planned, could set

:10:36. > :10:39.the image of the government and the opposition. The Conservative

:10:39. > :10:44.backbenchers have set out to tribally defend their guy yesterday,

:10:44. > :10:48.they were very noisy against Ed Balls and they are trying to define

:10:48. > :10:51.Ed Miliband, in the words of that phrase that David Cameron used, as

:10:51. > :10:55.left wing and so on. That is what is going on, because they know

:10:55. > :10:59.these are moments, and there are not many at the moment, whether

:10:59. > :11:05.public engages with politics. A lot of the time, there is too much

:11:05. > :11:08.going on in people's lives for them to care very much. That is why

:11:08. > :11:13.Labour desperately needed to get the image in the public's minds of

:11:13. > :11:16.economic failure yesterday, and today the Tories are desperate to

:11:16. > :11:21.convince the public that Labour is a friend of the strikers in the

:11:21. > :11:26.pockets of the unions. Is it the government's expectation that today

:11:26. > :11:32.is just the start... Maybe not of a winter of discontent, but the start

:11:32. > :11:38.of a series of set-piece industrial action days, and if it is, do they

:11:38. > :11:43.think... Is it their calculation that it will rebound to the

:11:43. > :11:49.government's benefit? The answer is no and yes. No to the winter of

:11:49. > :11:53.discontent. They would insist, and I think they are right, you cannot

:11:53. > :11:57.get workers on strike, day after day, losing a day's pay, over a

:11:57. > :12:00.potential future loss of earnings. If you are about to lose your job,

:12:00. > :12:05.of course you are prepared to go on strike every day. If you are losing

:12:05. > :12:08.your pay, you are willing to sacrifice a day's pay. If this is a

:12:08. > :12:12.potential future loss, important though it is, people are very

:12:12. > :12:17.unlikely. The model the trade unions are looking at is much more

:12:17. > :12:20.targeted, region by region, sector by sector in future. The model is

:12:20. > :12:24.the dispute that has happened in Southampton City Council, which has

:12:24. > :12:29.been going on for weeks. For example, they take out the traffic

:12:29. > :12:30.wardens because it denies the council some cash. Other union

:12:30. > :12:36.members pulled together and compensate those traffic wardens

:12:36. > :12:41.for the money they have lost in earnings. Yes to the idea of a

:12:41. > :12:45.long-term dispute, but no to the idea of a series of mass walkouts.

:12:45. > :12:49.Do you agree with that? I agree with a lot of what Nick has said.,

:12:49. > :12:52.from the relative calm of the House of Lords, it always strikes me as

:12:53. > :12:58.extraordinary, the volume of the noise and the aggression between

:12:58. > :13:04.both sides in the House of Commons. Some of it no doubt artificial, saw

:13:04. > :13:09.it clearly well-meant and deeply felt. Agree that this is a decisive

:13:09. > :13:13.week, about different messages that the opposition and the government

:13:13. > :13:18.are trying to push out. I think David Cameron is right to try to

:13:18. > :13:24.talk about Ed Miliband being irresponsible. I think it is a

:13:24. > :13:28.theme that we will see more of over the next few weeks. It was part of

:13:28. > :13:33.this, his C supporting strikes or not? In June he said one thing,

:13:33. > :13:38.then he said another. -- easy supporting. Now they have said they

:13:38. > :13:42.don't support the strikes -- easy supporting. If they said that a few

:13:42. > :13:46.weeks ago, we might not be having the strikes were having today.

:13:46. > :13:51.think it is nonsense and we have to remember what we are talking about.

:13:51. > :13:55.The Prime Minister was to make this about unions and entities and

:13:55. > :13:59.particular leaders, but we are talking about real people. I think

:13:59. > :14:03.he tops -- he makes a catastrophic misjudgment in seeking to dismiss

:14:03. > :14:07.the things that Ed has been saying as irresponsible and left wing and

:14:07. > :14:11.what have you. If you look at the demographics of people who go on --

:14:11. > :14:15.are going on strike, they do not usually go on strike. These are

:14:15. > :14:19.people in different parts of public service to keep our communities

:14:19. > :14:23.going. To dismiss them as if they are somehow the other, I think is

:14:23. > :14:27.going to be, particularly now but in the long term, a catastrophic

:14:27. > :14:31.misjudgment. He is saying actually, you are not really relevant to us,

:14:31. > :14:37.you are this extreme lot over there, you can't really be complaining

:14:37. > :14:41.about your situation. As I said earlier, if you look at the

:14:41. > :14:45.drawings for a public service pensioner right now, it is about

:14:45. > :14:49.�5,500. I think he has to be very careful. As a Prime Minister, you

:14:49. > :14:59.are expected to be a bit of the father of the nation, a consensus

:14:59. > :15:03.

:15:03. > :15:07.builder. The language he is using, I would argue, is a big misjudgment.

:15:07. > :15:10.Let me ask you a more fundamental question, almost trying to get away

:15:10. > :15:16.from the party... A lot of people after yesterday's Autumn Statement

:15:16. > :15:22.are actually quite scared. I really think they are worried.

:15:22. > :15:26.constituents say, I feel insecure. Can I ask the question? I am a bit

:15:26. > :15:30.scared about what will happen to this economy because we are on a

:15:30. > :15:36.knife-edge. The eurozone could tilt us over, and it would be like that,

:15:36. > :15:41.it would just go down like that. In the circumstances, don't we all

:15:41. > :15:46.have to rethink our positions and begin to say that the old party

:15:46. > :15:50.argument was kind of for the good times, when the Tories were talking

:15:50. > :16:00.about sharing the proceeds of growth, what happened to that? When

:16:00. > :16:00.

:16:00. > :16:04.Gordon Brown said, there will be no In many respects, the reaction has

:16:04. > :16:08.been in anticipation of what people think the effects of austerity will

:16:08. > :16:13.be. Many of these cuts have not come through yet. The Eurozone has

:16:14. > :16:17.not fed through. That is worrying. I think one thing, in terms of the

:16:17. > :16:21.tone of debate. I share the commands that people make. I am

:16:21. > :16:26.probably unique in that I sit in the House of Commons, and we have

:16:26. > :16:30.got to change PMQs. In fairness to Ed Miliband and the Prime Minister,

:16:30. > :16:34.they have both said publicly that they think the thing needs to be

:16:34. > :16:37.changed. The problem we have got is, how do you do that? I often think

:16:38. > :16:42.what we have these debates and you see the shouting, people feel very

:16:42. > :16:48.frightened about what is going on and insecure. I had a constituent

:16:48. > :16:51.visit me who confessed that he had wept, he lost his job. He is a

:16:51. > :16:55.qualified accountant and he got to the stage the other week where he

:16:55. > :16:59.was just crying because he did not know what to do. I often stop and

:16:59. > :17:03.reflect and think, what would he think when he watches the debates?

:17:03. > :17:06.It is difficult because it is emotional. Partly when people going

:17:06. > :17:10.to the chamber, and you're bringing the views of your constituents and

:17:10. > :17:15.you have had somebody crying when they visited her surgery, you feel

:17:15. > :17:24.a sense of emotion, that you have to get the tone right. -- visited

:17:24. > :17:27.your surgery. Two things, you and I did the live Budget show yesterday,

:17:27. > :17:33.and one is that the living standards, which had been in

:17:33. > :17:38.decline, may continue to decline from start to finish, for a total

:17:38. > :17:47.of 14 years. The other figure that caught my eye on the OBR was that

:17:47. > :17:51.we are now expecting the economy to be 13% smaller by 2016 than we

:17:51. > :17:55.thought three years ago. And it will be a long while before it even

:17:55. > :18:01.gets as big as it was before the financial crash. We already

:18:01. > :18:05.declining economy overall. I wonder if these quite dramatic things that

:18:05. > :18:12.are happening to our country, if the political discourse will have

:18:12. > :18:17.to change to match the fact. Absolutely. 13% is hard to grasp.

:18:17. > :18:22.That is �1 in every �8, more than that actually, going from the

:18:22. > :18:30.national cake. Are we having a political debate about which

:18:30. > :18:33.pounded should be? -- pound it should be. This is the politics of

:18:33. > :18:37.distribution. When the cake is getting smaller, there is a natural

:18:37. > :18:41.fight. People say, well, they should pay and not me. We will see

:18:41. > :18:45.more of that. The argument about taxing and spending. It seems we

:18:45. > :18:50.are not seeing more fundamental questions. Each party has made

:18:50. > :18:55.promises and commitments that look extraordinarily generous, if not

:18:55. > :18:58.lunatic. The Conservatives, much to the frustration of the civil

:18:59. > :19:04.servants, and the wrong partners in the Liberal Democrats, promised to

:19:04. > :19:08.keep under pressure from the Labour Party, the �3 billion of spending

:19:08. > :19:16.on the winter fuel payment, on free bus passes, that go to the likes of

:19:16. > :19:20.Ken clerk, for example. You could argue that it is good and that it

:19:20. > :19:23.is a good thing, and that if you knew what you knew then, the Labour

:19:23. > :19:27.Party has made commitments. But when will this be questioned?

:19:27. > :19:34.Forgive me, if you have to find �8 billion of savings, after the next

:19:34. > :19:38.election, �8 billion of unspecified savings and another 15 on top of

:19:38. > :19:43.that. This is why the long term matters. We have been saying that

:19:43. > :19:48.we need a new economy. We need to restructure the economy to produce

:19:48. > :19:51.better and fairer outcomes. That recognises that we're not going to,

:19:51. > :19:56.if we do win the general election, have the same amount of money

:19:56. > :19:58.available. We have seen crises before and we will get through this

:19:58. > :20:08.one. Politicians need to be honest and realistic about what has

:20:08. > :20:10.

:20:10. > :20:13.happened. Tonight, 9 o'clock, BBC Two, a serious programme. If you do

:20:13. > :20:21.not like politicians shouting at each other, you will see former

:20:21. > :20:25.Chancellor's share analysis about this question. -- Chancellors. The

:20:25. > :20:35.main interesting thing about this, I did not know they could talk that

:20:35. > :20:36.

:20:36. > :20:41.civilly. 9pm, BBC Two. TV gold. Forget the plug! The money is

:20:41. > :20:50.already making its way to my bank account. He got his wallet out, and

:20:50. > :20:54.two moths just flew over. Keep your cash! Shall we continue.

:20:54. > :20:58.On the subject of redistribution of wealth, as the depth of the

:20:58. > :21:03.economic crisis becomes clearer, it is beginning to feel more like the

:21:03. > :21:13.1930s. Then, as now, the economic woes were blamed on speculators. As

:21:13. > :21:13.

:21:13. > :21:17.now, politicians have struggled to keep pace with growing public anger.

:21:17. > :21:27.Here is Danny Gowling on why we need to do something about the gap

:21:27. > :21:28.

:21:28. > :21:32.between the super rich and A few years ago, politicians did

:21:32. > :21:35.not want talk about inequality. Peter Mandelson said he did not

:21:35. > :21:40.care what the rich earned as long as they paid their taxes. Now

:21:40. > :21:50.everybody is talking about fairness. Inequality is hard to stomach when

:21:50. > :21:58.

:21:58. > :22:01.In all of the OECD, there is only one other country that spends more

:22:01. > :22:09.on a smaller proportion of women's -- children's secondary education

:22:09. > :22:15.as we do, and that is chilly. In many countries, they spend more on

:22:15. > :22:20.those children who are left behind at school, not those who pass exams

:22:20. > :22:24.to go here, Westminster, Nick Clegg's old school. Profit is

:22:24. > :22:27.rising in Britain. At the same time, the 1000 richest people in this

:22:27. > :22:32.country saw their wealth caught up by an average of �60 million each

:22:32. > :22:42.last year. Are we allowing this to continue because we cannot do the

:22:42. > :22:44.

:22:44. > :22:48.maths? Over one million people aged under 25 are unemployed. At the

:22:48. > :22:54.same time, we are spending �200 billion a year on our salaries

:22:54. > :23:00.compared to 1970. That is in real terms. If the best-of people were

:23:00. > :23:04.still best-of but not paid five or �10 -- five or 10 times more than

:23:04. > :23:14.their parents, that extra money could employ one million people on

:23:14. > :23:15.

:23:15. > :23:19.the minimum wage 15 times over. 80 years ago, we faced a similar

:23:19. > :23:22.dilemma to today. There had been an economic crash and the country got

:23:22. > :23:30.poorer. It took our politicians four years to work out that we

:23:30. > :23:35.needed to share more. Let us see how long it takes this time.

:23:35. > :23:38.And Danny joins us. Picking up on that last point, governments have

:23:38. > :23:43.found it very difficult to redistribute wealth through

:23:43. > :23:49.legislation. What will change now? The question is, are we at the

:23:49. > :23:56.moment, like that moment at the end of 1929, where it took us about

:23:56. > :24:01.four years, to finally realise that we could not carry on having the

:24:01. > :24:05.rich having more and more. Conservative and Liberal

:24:05. > :24:08.administrations mainly made their gap between the rich and poor fall.

:24:08. > :24:13.There was increased taxation at the top but it fell in the Forties,

:24:13. > :24:19.Fifties, Sixties and Seventies. The last time we were as unequal as we

:24:19. > :24:21.are now was around that time. you're saying that the rich are

:24:21. > :24:26.getting paid too much, too many people with high salaries, and you

:24:26. > :24:31.could actually help you are on employment, how would you do that?

:24:31. > :24:36.Just tax the Ritz -- just tax the rich? It is more complicated and

:24:36. > :24:40.slower. The key thing that changed was attitudes as to what was decent

:24:40. > :24:44.and acceptable. Salaries stock rising and people stopped asking

:24:44. > :24:50.for more. That saved a lot of money. You think that might happen again?

:24:50. > :24:55.I look back at 2007, at some of the ways that people behaved. Bankers

:24:55. > :24:58.buying a drink for �10,000 to celebrate the deal. The super-rich,

:24:58. > :25:02.some of them are saying they would like to pay more tax. It is hardly

:25:02. > :25:09.a mass movement of people saying that they want to earn less. And it

:25:09. > :25:14.was hardly a mass movement at the end of that 20 Mac and '30s. -- at

:25:14. > :25:18.the end of the '20s. There was a generation of mass unemployment

:25:18. > :25:22.then. That is how it happened before, changing attitudes.

:25:22. > :25:26.Taxation matters but you have to say, it is wrong to have a few

:25:26. > :25:30.people paid enormous salaries and have one million people who are

:25:30. > :25:34.very young out of work. On Matt, is it wrong that a few people earn

:25:34. > :25:38.very high salaries and so many people do not? I agree with very

:25:38. > :25:42.little of what he has said, particularly the characterisation

:25:42. > :25:47.of the 1930s compared to today. We are infinitely wealthier than we

:25:47. > :25:52.were in the 1930s. We have a welfare system and pensions. We do

:25:52. > :25:56.not have people living in the streets on nothing. This is the

:25:56. > :26:02.brilliance of capitalism over the course of the last 80 years.

:26:02. > :26:06.everybody would accept... It has provided so much to us. Why have we

:26:06. > :26:11.gone back to the gaps of the Thirties? It is 20 years since the

:26:11. > :26:18.depths of communism. We have forgotten what happens in societies

:26:18. > :26:21.build on entirely -- built entirely on equality. Why is this debate

:26:21. > :26:27.about inequality or was about trying to make rich people poorer

:26:27. > :26:31.rather than poorer people richer? These other directions. I think he

:26:32. > :26:35.completely missed the point. It is because I have completely got the

:26:35. > :26:40.point. You are talking about the merits of capitalism and we're

:26:40. > :26:44.talking about distribution. We will end up with a more equal society,

:26:44. > :26:47.that is what you're saying but it is not the case. Why should the top

:26:47. > :26:51.people have to give up their salaries? That will not be the

:26:51. > :26:54.whole answer. I think there are two problems. We have a system where

:26:54. > :27:00.productivity increases have not fed through into wages and that is why

:27:00. > :27:03.we have had the squeeze on living standards. Secondly, we have had a

:27:03. > :27:07.development in highly paid jobs at the top and an insecure economy

:27:07. > :27:10.with low wages at the bottom. There is a hollow ring out of jobs in the

:27:10. > :27:14.middle. That is why we have to restructure the economy. Very

:27:14. > :27:19.quickly. If we tax people at the top, that would not sort out the

:27:19. > :27:23.problem. We have to work towards sorting out the middle. We need to

:27:23. > :27:31.do a whole problem on this -- programme on this!

:27:31. > :27:34.Let us see it live pictures than on the strikers. -- live pictures now

:27:34. > :27:43.of the strikers. This is central London, live pictures from our

:27:43. > :27:48.helicopter. Yesterday, it got lost on the way. Not huge numbers. The

:27:48. > :27:58.main demonstration will coincide with the strike in Birmingham.

:27:58. > :28:01.

:28:01. > :28:05.London, being London, there will always be something happening. A

:28:05. > :28:09.hospital. A schools may be closed, but don't think that our

:28:09. > :28:11.parliamentarians are not sharing your pain. Some of the catering

:28:11. > :28:15.facilities and House of Commons have been closed because of the

:28:15. > :28:21.strike. We do not want our guests to go hungry so we have brought

:28:21. > :28:24.them an austerity packed lunch. Here you are. There is just one

:28:24. > :28:34.catch, do you know how much it costs.

:28:34. > :28:35.

:28:35. > :28:45.If they shared... The sandwich costs? Probably about

:28:45. > :28:47.

:28:47. > :28:51.150. �1 and 53p. Not bad. The answer to guess the year, Bannister

:28:51. > :28:56.breaking the four-minute mile. We do not have time to pick the winner.

:28:56. > :29:02.The year was 1954. We will give you there were no tomorrow. That is it

:29:02. > :29:04.for today. Thank you to her guests and special thanks to Tam and Chuka

:29:04. > :29:08.Umunna for being our guests of the day.