:00:12. > :00:14.Good afternoon from the Scottish Parliament in Edinburgh where Alex
:00:14. > :00:17.Salmond is holding his first First Ministers' Questions of 2012.
:00:17. > :00:27.Inside the chamber everyone is agreed there should be a referendum
:00:27. > :00:27.
:00:27. > :00:37.on Scottish independence. But they are anything but agreed on WHEN and
:00:37. > :01:05.
:01:05. > :01:10.exactly what question the Scottish It's a beautiful sunny day here in
:01:10. > :01:15.the Scottish capital, but there have been some pretty stormy scenes
:01:15. > :01:22.in the chamber behind me just up these steps. For First Minister
:01:22. > :01:27.Alex Salmond, sparring with the New Labour leader here in Scotland,
:01:27. > :01:31.Johanne Lamont, frankly it wasn't very pretty. I had to avert my eyes.
:01:31. > :01:36.She accused Mr Salmond of not wanting a referendum very quickly.
:01:36. > :01:39.She said there should be one sooner rather than later. She even accused
:01:39. > :01:42.the First Minister of lacking courage. It's not fair on Scotland
:01:42. > :01:45.now or the Scotland of the future for the timing of this referendum
:01:45. > :01:48.to be in the hands of one politician. A Now, the First
:01:48. > :01:53.Minister, Alex Salmond, has already told the Prime Minister, David
:01:53. > :01:57.Cameron, to butt out of all of this business of a referendum, to stop
:01:57. > :02:02.stirring, but we have been doing a bit of stirring ourselves. We sent
:02:02. > :02:05.Max out with "the mood Bob," of the Daily Politics to find out what
:02:05. > :02:12.people down south think of Scottish independence. Anyone else -
:02:12. > :02:16.Scotland? Should it be independent, yes or no? No! The Government says
:02:16. > :02:19.it must press ahead to controversial changes to the
:02:19. > :02:21.welfare reform which were defeated in the House of Lords last night.
:02:21. > :02:29.And we'll be delving into the relationship between the police and
:02:29. > :02:33.the media - are they too close for comfort?
:02:33. > :02:35.Yes, all that coming up in the next half hour. And with us for the
:02:35. > :02:39.duration is the former Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police, Ian,
:02:39. > :02:42.now Lord Blair. Welcome to the programme. Thank you very much.
:02:42. > :02:45.first this morning let's talk about welfare reform because last night
:02:45. > :02:48.the Government suffered a series of defeats in the House of Lords over
:02:48. > :02:51.its plans to cut the cost of welfare. Labour and cross-bench
:02:51. > :02:53.peers defeated plans to means test and time limit payments to those
:02:53. > :02:55.recovering from serious illnesses such as cancer. Peers also
:02:55. > :03:04.overturned a plan to restrict young people with disabilities from
:03:04. > :03:07.claiming benefits. You, Ian, were one of them, weren't you? I was.
:03:07. > :03:10.What was the strength of the feeling like? I think the strength
:03:11. > :03:15.of the feeling was very considerable. I am a new boy in
:03:15. > :03:18.there, but I am told by the old hands it's a very, very long time
:03:19. > :03:22.since the Government has lost three divisions in a row and by
:03:22. > :03:26.significant margins. The Government has already said this morning -
:03:26. > :03:29.Christopher grailing has been out saying we're going to overturn
:03:29. > :03:33.those defeats, and you're wrong on this issue. Obviously, the
:03:33. > :03:38.Government has the right to put it back to the Commons and change it,
:03:38. > :03:42.but the mood of the Lords was summed up by the really marvellous
:03:42. > :03:46.Lord Patel, the obstetrician, who led the amendments, who said if
:03:46. > :03:50.we're going to rob the poor to pay the rich, then that is the kind of
:03:50. > :03:56.morality I cannot support. And the whole issue here is that the most
:03:56. > :03:59.vulnerable people - the people recovering from cancer, the people
:03:59. > :04:04.with long-term disabilities, are going to lose money in a
:04:04. > :04:08.significant way, to the extent of nearly �100 a week in some cases,
:04:08. > :04:12.and in particular this issue of what's called the Education Support
:04:12. > :04:17.Allowance. There is a suggestion that the people would be limited to
:04:17. > :04:21.just one year of that as from April, but also they're going to back date
:04:21. > :04:25.it, so if you have been on it for a year you're going to lose it on the
:04:26. > :04:30.first day. The Government no doubt made its case in the House of Lords
:04:30. > :04:32.today and has reiterated it saying actually they have made adequate
:04:32. > :04:36.provision for those people. The welfare reforms are the centrepiece
:04:36. > :04:42.of their policy plan, and if the defeats you put on the Government
:04:42. > :04:44.last night were to go ahead, it would cost between �1.5 and �2
:04:44. > :04:49.billion that has to be claimed somewhere. That is an important
:04:49. > :04:53.issue. Hugely important, but those figures, as I understand them,
:04:53. > :04:57.relate to absolutely everybody taking the maximum period they
:04:57. > :05:03.could possibly do. One of the instances is, for instance, cancer
:05:03. > :05:06.patients who are undergoing chemotherapy and so on - wented
:05:06. > :05:11.that period extended beyond one year. Everybody who knows anything
:05:11. > :05:16.at it says that most people want to go back to work as soon as possible.
:05:16. > :05:20.It's part of the therapy, but some can't. This is an issue that no
:05:20. > :05:27.doubt will come back. Stay with us. We're going to return to Edinburgh
:05:27. > :05:32.and Andrew Neil who is at the Holyrood Parliament. Thanks. All
:05:32. > :05:38.the headlines in the coverage for this in London and Edinburgh have
:05:38. > :05:43.been dominateded by the process, when will the referendum be? Should
:05:43. > :05:46.there be more than one question, an interim question between status quo
:05:46. > :05:49.and independence? Who should look after the referendum? Should it be
:05:49. > :05:54.the Electoral Commission or so on? When we were today offered an
:05:54. > :05:58.interview with Scotland's Finance Minister, John Swinney, I thought
:05:58. > :06:02.we'd park the process for a minute and ask a bit of substance about
:06:02. > :06:08.what an independent Scotland would look like in his view, so I began
:06:08. > :06:12.by asking him, what would the currency be if Scotland was
:06:12. > :06:16.independent? It would be sterling. We have made it clear that would be
:06:16. > :06:20.the currency we'd inherit, inherit those arrangements from the United
:06:20. > :06:24.Kingdom. That is the basis on which we would plan independence. There
:06:24. > :06:28.is a debate to be had about the European central currency, but we
:06:28. > :06:31.have set out we'd only ever go into a single currency if the economic
:06:31. > :06:35.conditions were correct and if the people of Scotland voted for that
:06:35. > :06:39.in a referendum, and the economic conditions in our opinion most
:06:39. > :06:43.definitely are not correct for that at this time, so sterling would be
:06:43. > :06:46.the currency... So Bank of England - the Bank of England would set an
:06:46. > :06:49.independent Scotland's interest rates? We would have to operate in
:06:49. > :06:52.that fashion if that was the operation of the Bank of England...
:06:52. > :06:54.So interest rates would be set by London? The key proposition that
:06:54. > :06:59.would be different about independence in that context is
:06:59. > :07:01.that a Scottish Government would be able to pursue its own fiscal
:07:01. > :07:05.policy which would enable an independent Scotland to take
:07:05. > :07:08.significantly more decisions than can ever be taken today about
:07:08. > :07:12.ensuring that we have the economic conditions and interventions that
:07:12. > :07:16.are appropriate for the needs and the aspirations of the Scottish
:07:16. > :07:20.economy. That's fiscal policy, but you wouldn't control your own
:07:20. > :07:23.interest rates or money supply? You couldn't print your own money, is
:07:23. > :07:26.that right? But what we would be... Is that right? The Bank of England
:07:26. > :07:29.would be able to take decisions... Yeah, the Bank of England would
:07:29. > :07:34.take decisions about a country in which it was not part and didn't
:07:34. > :07:36.care about. But obviously, if it was operating - if the currency was
:07:36. > :07:40.part of the jurisdiction of the Bank of England, if that was part
:07:40. > :07:43.of the agreement and approach that we took, then the Bank of England
:07:43. > :07:47.would operate in a fashion that was appropriate to those economic
:07:47. > :07:52.circumstances, but what we would also be able to do - and this is a
:07:52. > :07:54.crucial point, Andrew - there would be a separate distinction about
:07:54. > :07:57.fiscal policy that would be able to be taken forward about a Scottish
:07:58. > :08:03.Government which would give us significantly more economic
:08:03. > :08:06.influence and leverage than we have at the present time, and... That's
:08:06. > :08:10.not what I am asking about. Would - the Bank of England would also
:08:10. > :08:13.control how much you could borrow, correct? Well, the Bank of England
:08:13. > :08:17.- the Scottish Government would determine what degree of borrowing
:08:17. > :08:21.it was able to take forward. the Bank of England would have to
:08:21. > :08:23.have a say-so to that. It would have to do so within a sustainable
:08:24. > :08:28.climate and framework. Set by the Bank of England. That's where you
:08:28. > :08:32.have to take into account the fact that we have both - there is a
:08:32. > :08:36.debate about monetary policy and also fiscal policy because what
:08:36. > :08:40.fiscal policy enables you to do is to create a more prosperous set of
:08:40. > :08:44.conditions and deliver a greater degree of growth. I understand that
:08:44. > :08:47.an independent Scotland sets its own tax. No. I would like you to
:08:47. > :08:50.answer this question. Would the Bank of England control how much
:08:50. > :08:53.you could borrow? Let me complete this point - what's important about
:08:53. > :08:57.fiscal policy is it can influence the amount of growth you can
:08:57. > :09:02.deliver in the economy, which is clearly a fact of the influences -
:09:02. > :09:06.the degree of borrowing that is required to be undertaken soo. You
:09:06. > :09:10.would have to apply to join the European Union. No, we wouldn't.
:09:10. > :09:15.But Scotland isn't a part of the you'reene union. We're clearly a
:09:15. > :09:18.part of it today. We inherit the obligations of the United Kingdom...
:09:18. > :09:24.Do you have guidance from Brussels you wouldn't have to rejoin? If you
:09:24. > :09:29.look at some... Have you had guidance from Brussels? If you look
:09:29. > :09:35.at the most distinguished opinion on this suffered offered by one of
:09:36. > :09:39.the secretaries of the European Commission, if you look at a report
:09:39. > :09:45.by Eamon Gallagher - the treaty obligations of the United Kingdom
:09:45. > :09:50.and being already a member of the European Union... Sure. The Royal
:09:50. > :09:52.Bank of Scotland - 83% owned by the UK taxpayer. Who would own it after
:09:52. > :09:56.independence? That would obviously be part of the dialogue that would
:09:56. > :10:00.have to take place between the United Kingdom Government... Would
:10:00. > :10:03.you take it over? Clearly, we would have an interest in the ownership
:10:04. > :10:07.of the Royal Bank of Scotland, but it would be part of a negotiation
:10:07. > :10:12.between the Scottish Government and UK... But is it the policy of the
:10:12. > :10:16.Scottish Nationalists the Royal Bank of Scotland should become a
:10:16. > :10:20.wholly owned Scottish bank again? What it should become in our
:10:20. > :10:24.aspiration is a privately owned bank, and we'd want to encourage
:10:24. > :10:27.the bank as soon as it is efficiently able to do so to become
:10:27. > :10:31.a privately owned bank. That is what it should be. I understand
:10:31. > :10:35.that. For the foreseeable future, it doesn't look like it's happening.
:10:35. > :10:39.It's owned by the state at the moment. Will the Scottish state
:10:39. > :10:42.take it over? The UK Government has disposed of its interests in
:10:42. > :10:46.Northern Rock. What's the answer to my question? Will the Scottish
:10:46. > :10:50.state take over the Royal Bank of Scotland? My to answer you is
:10:50. > :10:52.twofold. One is the fact that the Scottish Government would negotiate
:10:52. > :10:55.that with the United Kingdom Government, what the ongoing
:10:56. > :11:01.arrangements were. Secondly, we would have the aspiration, just
:11:01. > :11:05.like the UK Government has, to return the Royal Bank of Scotland
:11:05. > :11:11.to its proper place within the private sector which I think will
:11:11. > :11:14.happen soon. In the interim, will you take over its toxic assets as
:11:14. > :11:18.well? That's part of the interests the UK has within the Royal Bank of
:11:18. > :11:22.Scotland. It has to be properly negotiated between the two
:11:22. > :11:25.governments. What's important is the Royal Bank of Scotland is on a
:11:25. > :11:30.journey to get back into private ownership. We'd want to encourage
:11:30. > :11:33.that. That was John Swinney talking to the SNP earlier on. A lot of
:11:33. > :11:37.people in England and Wales think Scottish independence is as much
:11:37. > :11:42.matter for them as the people of Scotland. We sent Max out with the
:11:42. > :11:45.mood box to see what the people of London thought. It's an ancient
:11:45. > :11:49.political debate - independence for Scotland - should we hold our
:11:49. > :11:53.Scottish brothers and sisters to our bosom in a United Kingdom of
:11:53. > :11:58.Great Britain and Northern Ireland, or should Scotland be unhitched and
:11:58. > :12:06.pushed out into the North Atlantic? That's the question - do we want an
:12:06. > :12:14.Scotland - should it be independent? Yes or no? Pop a poll
:12:14. > :12:19.in the box? No. OK. No, no, no. Half my roots are Scottish and half
:12:19. > :12:24.English, so I don't wish to divide my allegiances. I voted no.
:12:25. > :12:28.voted no. Great. I was going to vote yes.
:12:28. > :12:33.Because I think it would be a good idea that we wouldn't have to pay
:12:33. > :12:37.for their National Health. think they should pay for their own
:12:37. > :12:41.National Health? I definitely do. Do you think the English People
:12:41. > :12:48.should get a vote on Scottish independence? With Scottish genes,
:12:48. > :12:52.yes. You voted no. Why is that? think a Act of Union was correct in
:12:52. > :12:56.1707. Would you vote to make Scotland independent? Yes, I would
:12:56. > :13:00.do. It's because you love Scotland? I love Scotland. I love the
:13:00. > :13:03.Scottish people. We have only been at it half an hour, and it's very
:13:03. > :13:07.evenly matched between yes and no, but what lots and lots of people
:13:07. > :13:12.are saying is there should be a third box which says it's up to the
:13:12. > :13:16.Scottish people. Ultimately, politically, it needs
:13:16. > :13:20.to be Scotland's decision, but I don't think it's realistic. Keep
:13:21. > :13:24.together. I kind of want them to be independent, so it shows them how
:13:24. > :13:28.isolating it is to be alone. aren't we getting a vote as well?
:13:28. > :13:33.Why do you think we should get a vote in England? I think it affects
:13:33. > :13:39.England as well as Scotland. We should get a vote too. Are you
:13:39. > :13:45.French? Should it be independent or not? Lieb, OK.
:13:45. > :13:49.I am conflicted here because the only reason the Tories are giving
:13:49. > :13:53.us independence is so there are less Labour MPs in Parliament.
:13:53. > :13:58.that the only reason? I am bloody sure that's the reason. Is it
:13:58. > :14:04.Andrew Neil? Yeah, yeah. If only you said, in which case... You're
:14:04. > :14:09.going to vote no. Right. Time is up - lots of people voting. The yeses
:14:09. > :14:14.are just about ahead after an hour- and-a-half. My two favourite
:14:14. > :14:20.comments have been, firstly, what on earth are you doing asking this
:14:20. > :14:22.question in London, you burke? The second, which is the box for
:14:22. > :14:28.rebuilding Hadrian's Wall? LAUGHTER
:14:28. > :14:33.That's very funny. Evenly split there as well. I am joined by Lord
:14:33. > :14:37.Foulkes, and, of course, Ian Blair is with us too. Does it take two to
:14:37. > :14:41.separate, as we heard some people saying here? I think that is very
:14:41. > :14:45.good point. There is a legitimate English interest. I am in favour of
:14:45. > :14:49.a federal system. I want to see devolution to England. Don't put
:14:49. > :14:53.any other options forward, please! I thought it was very interesting,
:14:53. > :14:56.Andrew's interview with John Swinney. You can see why they don't
:14:56. > :15:01.want an earlier referendum. He couldn't answer the question on
:15:01. > :15:03.currency, on RBS, on European membership. He didn't even get on
:15:03. > :15:08.to the army, Navy and air force. There are so many unanswered
:15:08. > :15:11.questions. That is the point. It has been about the process - or a
:15:11. > :15:17.large part of the discussion has been about the process. Once we get
:15:17. > :15:21.into the substance of it, it may be more difficult in terms of
:15:21. > :15:25.presenting an argument as far as the SNP is concerned, is that your
:15:25. > :15:29.view? Yes. I think they want to delay it as much as possible.
:15:29. > :15:33.give them more time? Yes, to work up their arguments. I am also
:15:33. > :15:35.worried they're trying to fix the referendum because what is
:15:35. > :15:39.absolutely vital is that the Electoral Commission must run it,
:15:39. > :15:45.an independent body. That's same all over the world. Electoral
:15:45. > :15:48.Commissions do that. What they want to do is run it themselves - decide
:15:48. > :15:53.the timing... They would argue they confounded expectations last year,
:15:53. > :15:57.and they won, and they won very decisively in those elections, and
:15:57. > :16:00.one might say as a result partly of Labour's failure in Scotland. Do
:16:00. > :16:04.you accept Labour hasn't performed well in Scotland and has allowed
:16:04. > :16:08.Alex Salmond and the SNP to perform as well as it snas I think that's
:16:08. > :16:15.inevitably a conclusion you're right to draw.
:16:15. > :16:18.But he got 45% of the vote. They talk about an overwhelming mandate.
:16:18. > :16:23.45% is not overwhelming. They have always made their position clear.
:16:23. > :16:29.We have said that they have got a right for a referendum to be
:16:29. > :16:31.conducted. We have accepted that. What was said by Michael Moore in
:16:31. > :16:35.the Commons yesterday quite rightly is they don't have the legal
:16:35. > :16:41.ability to do it. We can give them the power to do that, but it must
:16:41. > :16:45.be done fairly. There was a statesman-like agreement in the
:16:45. > :16:47.House of Commons yesterday between David Cameron and Ed Miliband
:16:47. > :16:50.yesterday over the future of Scotland and Scottish independence.
:16:50. > :17:00.Do you agree that the Prime Minister could end up being the
:17:00. > :17:04.
:17:04. > :17:07.best recruiting sergeant for an That's quite possible. I think
:17:07. > :17:13.there are voices coming forward now, from all over the United Kingdom,
:17:13. > :17:17.saying this is a bigger issue than just about Scotland. There was a
:17:17. > :17:21.very good article in the Telegraph yesterday about the nature of
:17:21. > :17:27.British identity, that actually the Scots and the English and the Irish
:17:27. > :17:31.and the Welsh have developed an identity which is a force for good
:17:31. > :17:36.p -- in the world. Do you think it was a mistake for some of Labour's
:17:36. > :17:41.big beasts from, Scotland, to come down to Westminster? Have they
:17:41. > :17:45.ignored and forgotten it? No, we live up there. We are active in
:17:45. > :17:48.Scottish politic. We have to be active in British politics as well.
:17:48. > :17:53.We are Scottish, blish, we are European. That is the -- British,
:17:53. > :17:58.we are European. That is the modern way to look at it. To talk about
:17:58. > :18:03.hundreds of years is really turning the clock back in a ridiculous way.
:18:03. > :18:12.Let's go back to Edinburgh now. Here in Edinburgh I am joined by
:18:12. > :18:21.two of the finest of Her Majesty's press core here in the Holyrood
:18:21. > :18:25.Parliament, Lorraine Davidson from The Times and Alan Cochrane.
:18:25. > :18:30.If the Scottish nationalists, if this Parliament goes ahead with a
:18:30. > :18:34.referendum, on its own terms, would it immediately be challenged in the
:18:34. > :18:40.courts? I think it will be. That will mean the referendum is held up,
:18:40. > :18:44.possibly, for years, beyond Alex Salmond's term in power. You will
:18:44. > :18:48.then have some sort of civil movement, where people are saying,
:18:48. > :18:53.didn't we vote for this? Isn't it our democratic right? All that will
:18:53. > :18:58.amount to a lot of frustration and anger in Scotland. David Cameron's
:18:58. > :19:02.offer to Alex Salmond, is despite all of Alex Salmond's bluster, a
:19:02. > :19:06.very attractive one to him. If he wants to put his once in a lifetime
:19:06. > :19:10.opportunity to the people of Scotland. If fear a referendum, if
:19:10. > :19:16.he does not negotiate with London would be unconstitutional, because
:19:16. > :19:26.it is a reserved power of the Scotland Roit Act. That is for all
:19:26. > :19:28.
:19:28. > :19:33.the bluster and Mr Cameron being -- that is for doing a deal? There are
:19:33. > :19:38.two Alex Salmond could do a deal on now. He could do a deal about the
:19:39. > :19:45.16 year olds voting. He has to have an independent overseeing of the
:19:45. > :19:54.referendum. He cannot apoint three pals to say, "That is fine, on you
:19:54. > :19:58.go." It has George Reid. One of the founders of modernism.
:19:58. > :20:03.This explains why he's trying to kick the referendum into 2014, why
:20:03. > :20:09.he wants more than one question. If there was a simple - do you want to
:20:09. > :20:14.be independent or don't you? Yes or no? If that was held now, the Scots
:20:14. > :20:20.would probably vote "no", am I right? It is running around one-
:20:20. > :20:24.third of Scots. It has been as long as that. It has always been around
:20:25. > :20:28.one-third. There's no great momentum behind demand for
:20:28. > :20:33.independence. It's a high-risk strategy. If he gos to the people
:20:33. > :20:37.with that and he loses it, they cannot come back with that question.
:20:37. > :20:40.He wants a consolation prize. He wants to come away and say people
:20:40. > :20:46.in Scotland have demonstrated what they want is sweeping new powers
:20:46. > :20:48.for the Parliament. Then he can go to party and say, all we have to do
:20:48. > :20:54.now is the final piece of the jigsaw.
:20:54. > :20:59.Is he frightened he would lose it if it went now and it was a simple
:20:59. > :21:02.yes or no question? Yes. Otherwise we would have had the referendum.
:21:02. > :21:07.We've been talking about independence since you and I were
:21:07. > :21:13.boys. That was not yesterday. is at least ten years ago. I have
:21:13. > :21:17.been back in Scotland for 17 years. It has been in the agenda and
:21:17. > :21:23.newspapers for every day of those 17 years. Alex wants another three
:21:23. > :21:29.years. What is left to discuss? Alan Cochrane has offered to take
:21:29. > :21:32.us for lunch. You never turn an offer down like that from Mr
:21:32. > :21:36.Cochrane. It's all right for some. See you
:21:36. > :21:40.next week. Is the relationship between the police and media too
:21:40. > :21:43.cosy? Last week a report found the close relationship between parts of
:21:43. > :21:47.Scotland Yard and the media had caused serious harm. We will get
:21:47. > :21:57.the thoughts of our guess of the day in a moment. He used to be in
:21:57. > :22:00.
:22:00. > :22:05.charge of the Metropolitan Police. Welcome to the Red Lion. It is one
:22:05. > :22:09.of my Westminster locals. If I was a crime reporter it is the sort of
:22:09. > :22:13.place I might sink a jar or three with some of my Scotland Yard
:22:13. > :22:17.contacts N the wake of the phone hacking scandal that could be a
:22:17. > :22:27.thing of the past. Socialising and flirting between journalism coppers,
:22:27. > :22:34.a bit of a no, no. Elizabeth Filkin has devised a new set of rules.
:22:34. > :22:38.Very briefly, clearer guidelines on briefings and more transparency are
:22:38. > :22:42.in. Cosy chats, leaking to your favourite journalists, they are out.
:22:42. > :22:46.They are likely to be adopted by other police forces as well. Will
:22:46. > :22:50.they work? It is really important that the newspapers and police
:22:50. > :22:53.establish a much clearer line between what is incorrect and what
:22:53. > :22:59.is correct. For instance, I don't think they should be wining and
:22:59. > :23:02.dining. They should have meetings, maybe a coffee, but not a bottle of
:23:02. > :23:06.champagne. Without that informal contact can we find out what is
:23:06. > :23:10.really going on? She talks about openness and transparency in her
:23:10. > :23:15.report. At the same time, she talks about threatening ordinary officers
:23:15. > :23:18.with criminal investigations and the sack if they have informal
:23:18. > :23:22.conversations with journalists they trust. That seems to be closing
:23:23. > :23:25.down an avenue for police officers who have concerns about racism,
:23:25. > :23:30.malpractice to talk to journalists they trust and to get that
:23:30. > :23:35.information out there. Now, she would say that perhaps. What about
:23:35. > :23:40.a veteran of some of Britain's toughest murder cases? Has anyone
:23:40. > :23:45.over a couple of pints got more out of you than you intended to say?
:23:45. > :23:49.find that hysterical. No way. I am sure if you spoke to most, they
:23:49. > :23:52.will say never go for a drink with Sue, I will drink them under the
:23:52. > :23:57.table, as will many of my colleagues. We've had a trusting
:23:57. > :24:02.relationship. I think for the sake of one or two people who have
:24:02. > :24:07.behaved or perceived to behave inappropriately with the media it
:24:07. > :24:11.is a sledgehammer to crack a nut. One of the former commissioners,
:24:11. > :24:15.when he was faced a scandal he told officers to be open and talk to the
:24:15. > :24:18.media, talk to other people about their concerns. He thought shining
:24:18. > :24:22.a light on a scandal was better than covering things up. It is a
:24:22. > :24:27.thought. With the police and media both facing huge pressure to reform,
:24:27. > :24:34.is this drinking-up time and a last chance salon?
:24:34. > :24:39.Of course, Ian Blair is here. Let's pick up on the wining and dining
:24:39. > :24:42.issue. Will in the end, a report end up closing communications
:24:42. > :24:47.between the police and media? Communications that are in the
:24:47. > :24:53.words of the detective in that film and also the crime reporter, a good
:24:53. > :24:58.thing? I think Elizabeth Filkin has fired a bun der blast at this.
:24:58. > :25:03.There are two or thing things going on. You have the relationship for -
:25:03. > :25:06.let me stop for a second, it may appear that I may appear in front
:25:06. > :25:13.of the Leveson Inquiry to talk about this.
:25:13. > :25:18.Of course. There is an issue between senior officers and
:25:18. > :25:22.journalists. That will have an examination. That's the wining and
:25:22. > :25:27.dining thing. That was too much about.... There is a suggestion it
:25:27. > :25:31.was becoming a bit frequent. Then at the really difficult end of the
:25:32. > :25:34.scale you clearly have got a small number of police officers and a
:25:34. > :25:38.small number of journalists who are prepared to exchange information
:25:38. > :25:41.for money. That is illegal. The people involved, on both sides,
:25:41. > :25:46.should be arrested and, if the evidence is there, should be
:25:46. > :25:51.charged and put before the courts. It's the middle bit that Sue Hill
:25:51. > :25:55.was talking about. I am with Robert. I think we should
:25:55. > :25:58.have a really open relationship with the press inside the police.
:25:58. > :26:02.We should meet journalists, we should talk. We should not give
:26:02. > :26:09.away matters which are confidential. But we should have a situation in
:26:09. > :26:13.which a police officer, who feels something is wrong, as soon as any
:26:13. > :26:18.other whistleblower should be in that situation. Is it difficult to
:26:18. > :26:23.control those relationships if alcohol is involved? Elizabeth says
:26:23. > :26:32.alcohol and journalists don't mix, avoid flirtation. It sound relick
:26:32. > :26:38.douse. Surely you are -- ridiculous, surely you are grown ups. It's a
:26:38. > :26:42.long time since I have been in the position of being a middle-ranking
:26:42. > :26:46.or junior officer. I don't recall a situation in which people were
:26:46. > :26:53.getting drunk together. These are conversations that need to happen,
:26:53. > :26:57.the same way as conversations need to happen between other parts of
:26:57. > :27:01.the state with journalism. That is what a free press is there. There
:27:01. > :27:05.should be a clear code of conduct and people should stick by it.
:27:05. > :27:10.There is a code of conduct. As you say, financial transactions are
:27:10. > :27:16.illegal any way. How can you really stop these things happening? Well,
:27:16. > :27:20.the question is, what are we trying to stop? I hope leveson will find a
:27:20. > :27:23.distinction between the elements wrapped up in this conversation.
:27:23. > :27:26.What about the links with politicians? It's not just about
:27:26. > :27:32.the media. You talked about officers, particularly at the top
:27:32. > :27:37.level. Is that relationship also too cosy? You will no doubt be
:27:37. > :27:41.asked about that too?. I think it is inevitable. The Metropolitan
:27:41. > :27:44.Police deals with the most difficult inquiries. It deals with
:27:44. > :27:47.the protection of the Royal Family and counter-terrorism. Are we going
:27:47. > :27:51.to say the commissioner is not going to speak to the Home
:27:51. > :27:55.Secretary about that. That is inevitable. The relationship
:27:55. > :28:03.between journalists and police officers will continue. In the end,
:28:03. > :28:08.will anything fundamentally change as a result of the Leveson Inquiry?
:28:08. > :28:14.I think, I really do hope some things will change. It did become,
:28:14. > :28:19.in my view looking back, a too cosy relationship between some senior
:28:19. > :28:24.officers and some journalists and editors. I think that has to be, at
:28:24. > :28:30.least clearer - I think is the right description. I am with Robert
:28:30. > :28:34.Mark. We should shine a clear light T publication of diaries by senior
:28:34. > :28:39.police officers - I don't mean memoirs - I mean the daily diary,
:28:39. > :28:43.it seems to me really important. have time for you to pick one of
:28:43. > :28:51.these out of the big mug. This is the winner of the Guess The Year.