25/01/2012

0:00:31 > 0:00:35Good morning, folks. This is the Daily Politics. The Governor of the

0:00:35 > 0:00:39Bank of England says, do not despair, or crises come to an end.

0:00:39 > 0:00:44Is that the best he can do? There is more bad economic news this

0:00:44 > 0:00:48morning. According to provisional figures, the economy shrank by 0.2%

0:00:48 > 0:00:52in the last three months of 2011. We will have the latest on what

0:00:52 > 0:00:57that might mean. Despite the economic gloom, the Prime Minister

0:00:57 > 0:01:02is ahead in the polls. He will be taking on Ed Miliband at midday.

0:01:02 > 0:01:06And he'll be taking on the European Court of Human Rights. This

0:01:06 > 0:01:10afternoon he is off to Strasbourg to demand changes to the way the

0:01:10 > 0:01:14court operates. And everyone seems to think lobbying is a dirty word.

0:01:14 > 0:01:22We will be talking to one man who claims it is actually a noble

0:01:22 > 0:01:32So, all of that and much more coming up in the next 90 minutes.

0:01:32 > 0:01:35

0:01:35 > 0:01:39That is before half the Cabinet Probably not for skiing, although I

0:01:39 > 0:01:44bet a few of them get a couple of slopes in. But they are going to

0:01:44 > 0:01:48sort out the world economy... That will not take them along(!) With

0:01:48 > 0:01:51its port the duration are a couple of politicians. They are not

0:01:52 > 0:01:58carrying ski gear. They are more interested, according to the Daily

0:01:58 > 0:02:02Mail, in beach volleyball. With us we have the employment minister

0:02:02 > 0:02:06Chris Grayling and the Shadow Work and Pensions Secretary Liam Byrne.

0:02:06 > 0:02:11Is it true that there is a strong interest in beach volleyball among

0:02:11 > 0:02:15ministers? There is no doubt that if you live in the Cabinet Office,

0:02:15 > 0:02:19the hottest ticket is having an office overlooking Horse Guards

0:02:19 > 0:02:24Parade. According to the report, politicians and bureaucrats have

0:02:24 > 0:02:28spent �26,000 on 410 tickets, all of them on beach volleyball?

0:02:28 > 0:02:32don't think it is for the politicians, but it is for the

0:02:32 > 0:02:38Olympics staff. It is their choice, they seemed very keen. I have no

0:02:38 > 0:02:43idea why. You must have some idea! It is a mystery to me. Let's turn

0:02:43 > 0:02:47our attention to Alex Salmond. In a couple of hours he will be

0:02:47 > 0:02:52outlining his proposals for a referendum on independence. I'm

0:02:52 > 0:02:56joined by Stuart Maxwell, a member of the Scottish parliament. He is

0:02:56 > 0:03:01from Alex Salmond's SNP. Speaking for yourself and not for Alex

0:03:01 > 0:03:04Salmond or the Scottish Executive, run by your party, of course, what

0:03:04 > 0:03:09question are all questions would you like to see on the ballot

0:03:09 > 0:03:13paper? I would like to see a straightforward question about

0:03:13 > 0:03:19whether or not the people of Scotland want to vote yes or no to

0:03:19 > 0:03:22independence. That is my position, my colleagues' position, my party's

0:03:22 > 0:03:26position and Alex Salmond's position. If it is your position

0:03:26 > 0:03:32and the position of the Labour and Conservative parties, even the

0:03:32 > 0:03:36Liberal Democrat party, I assume that is what we will get? Well, of

0:03:36 > 0:03:40course, the consultation will launch this afternoon. We will lay

0:03:40 > 0:03:44out the question we want to see. We will also ask the people of

0:03:44 > 0:03:48Scotland what they want. It is clear this is a democratic process.

0:03:48 > 0:03:52We have to listen to the people and see whether or not there really is

0:03:52 > 0:03:55widespread demand for not just an independence question, but perhaps

0:03:55 > 0:04:00a second question on further powers. That is a matter for the people

0:04:00 > 0:04:03involved in the consultation. would you judge what Scottish

0:04:03 > 0:04:09opinion is on this matter of whether there should be more than

0:04:09 > 0:04:14one question? Well, obviously the consultation this afternoon will be

0:04:14 > 0:04:17launched. We will have several months of people having the chance

0:04:17 > 0:04:22to put their views to the Scottish parliament. I think that will show

0:04:22 > 0:04:26a very widespread opinion. We have also got meetings and campaigns

0:04:26 > 0:04:30been launched by civic Scotland, trade unions, voluntary

0:04:30 > 0:04:34organisations and others, saying that they want to take part. They

0:04:34 > 0:04:38have a strong opinion and I am sure there will also contribute to the

0:04:38 > 0:04:43debate. I think we will get a clear position about what they want to

0:04:43 > 0:04:46save. Is it accepted that you can have views on the nature of the

0:04:46 > 0:04:51referendum, the question, who should preside over it to make sure

0:04:51 > 0:04:57it is fair and free, but in the end you need the support of the

0:04:57 > 0:05:00Westminster Parliament to avoid a legal challenge? I don't agree with

0:05:01 > 0:05:05that. I think we can have the referendum and it is quite clear

0:05:05 > 0:05:09that has already been proven in that the 2010 paper issued by the

0:05:09 > 0:05:14Scottish government. But I think it is a red herring. If the UK

0:05:14 > 0:05:19government wished to pass a section 30 order, as it is called, and take

0:05:19 > 0:05:22away any doubt of legality, we are quite willing to accept this. We

0:05:22 > 0:05:26have said many times, go-ahead, give the Scottish parliament the

0:05:26 > 0:05:31power to carry out the referendum, legally, but do not attach any

0:05:31 > 0:05:34strings. If they are worried about legality, they should pass power to

0:05:34 > 0:05:38the Scottish parliament. It is the strings they want to attach that is

0:05:38 > 0:05:43the problem. At the weekend, the Professor of Law at the University

0:05:43 > 0:05:46of Glasgow and at the University of Edinburgh, and I think we agree you

0:05:46 > 0:05:50cannot get higher authority than that in Scotland, they both said it

0:05:50 > 0:05:55was clearly a reserve power and that Westminster had to have the

0:05:55 > 0:05:59final say. Well, the constitution clearly is a reserve power. There

0:05:59 > 0:06:01has never been an argument about that. The issue is whether or not

0:06:01 > 0:06:05the Scottish parliament could ask questions of the Scottish people

0:06:06 > 0:06:10and find out what their views are. A consultative referendum, in other

0:06:10 > 0:06:13words. That has always been a position, it is the position of

0:06:13 > 0:06:16many experts in Scotland and it is within the power of the Parliament

0:06:16 > 0:06:20to do that. It is a bit of a red herring. Nobody wants to argue

0:06:20 > 0:06:25about these things. Go ahead and give the Scottish parliament powers.

0:06:25 > 0:06:29Just don't try to dictate the terms along with those powers. I want to

0:06:29 > 0:06:33bring in our guests in London. Chris Grayling, what is the

0:06:33 > 0:06:38Government redline? Will they allow more than one question on

0:06:38 > 0:06:42independence? David Cameron has been very clear. This is a matter

0:06:42 > 0:06:47for the Westminster Parliament. We accept that the question needs to

0:06:47 > 0:06:49be put. But we have also said that we think there needs to be a yes or

0:06:49 > 0:06:53no question put sooner rather than later, so that the issue can be

0:06:53 > 0:06:58addressed. It is not one where Scotland is going to benefit from a

0:06:58 > 0:07:03long, drawn-out process, with huge amounts of uncertainty. Yes or no

0:07:03 > 0:07:07is what you insist on? What is the Labour position? It is a big

0:07:07 > 0:07:10question. I don't think we should muck about. We should get on with

0:07:10 > 0:07:13getting the question put to the people of Scotland. I think it

0:07:13 > 0:07:21should be one question on the ballot paper. Let's not muddy the

0:07:21 > 0:07:25waters, let's come to a clear and rapid view. Mr Maxwell, if the

0:07:25 > 0:07:30Scottish government executive proceeds with what you have just

0:07:30 > 0:07:34called a consultative referendum, if you do that, would you not then

0:07:34 > 0:07:37have to return after you tried to negotiate independence and have a

0:07:37 > 0:07:45binding referendum, a second referendum by the Scottish people

0:07:45 > 0:07:49to agree on what you have negotiated? No, another red herring

0:07:49 > 0:07:52and another scare story about multiple referendums. One single

0:07:52 > 0:07:57referendum would empower the Scottish people are at her you just

0:07:57 > 0:08:02said it would only be consultative. A consultative referendum, that

0:08:02 > 0:08:05cannot be enough for independence? I'm sorry that I have to let you

0:08:05 > 0:08:11know that virtually every referendum that has been held in

0:08:11 > 0:08:16the UK has been consultative. The AV referendum last year was

0:08:16 > 0:08:20consultative. But the results are not ignored. It is just a legal

0:08:20 > 0:08:23technicality. That is normal process. Even after you have done

0:08:23 > 0:08:27the deal and negotiated terms, which might be very different from

0:08:27 > 0:08:31what was discussed in the first referendum, you would not go back

0:08:31 > 0:08:34to the Scottish people to get approval? Correct? The Scottish

0:08:34 > 0:08:37people would have made their decision that they wanted

0:08:37 > 0:08:43independence and a positive vision for Scotland. I think that is what

0:08:43 > 0:08:47they will do. One referendum, clear enough. Thanks for joining us.

0:08:47 > 0:08:50Let's turn our attention to the armed forces. A group of MPs have

0:08:51 > 0:08:54called it grotesque and shocking about 40% of redundancies amongst

0:08:55 > 0:08:59servicemen and women are to be compulsory. Current civilian

0:08:59 > 0:09:01redundancies at the Ministry of Defence will be voluntary. The

0:09:02 > 0:09:05defence select committee also wants to know why people cannot be

0:09:05 > 0:09:12retrained. Chris Grayling, that does sound and fair, if civilian

0:09:12 > 0:09:16staff are allowed the flexibility and not military staff? -- unfare.

0:09:16 > 0:09:19That's not actually true. Philip Hammond has said this morning that

0:09:19 > 0:09:23is wrong. We have to make reductions in the Ministry of

0:09:23 > 0:09:28Defence and the armed forces. There are more posts going into a

0:09:28 > 0:09:32civilian area. We are looking to make sure that, where possible, any

0:09:32 > 0:09:36changes come through voluntary redundancy. There are not enough

0:09:36 > 0:09:40people coming forward. That puts you in a position where you have to

0:09:40 > 0:09:44take other measures. We would rather the whole thing was done

0:09:44 > 0:09:49voluntarily, certainly offering people the opportunity to retrain

0:09:49 > 0:09:54in other areas. That is something we are doing across government,

0:09:55 > 0:09:59looking at how people can have an opportunity to go elsewhere.

0:09:59 > 0:10:03are you being more successful with civilian staff? There are quite

0:10:03 > 0:10:07significant shortages in particular areas. Some people need to be

0:10:07 > 0:10:10highly trained, like bomb disposal experts. But why are not enough of

0:10:10 > 0:10:15the military staff are being offered the retraining? We are

0:10:15 > 0:10:18offering retraining where we can. You ask why eat fewer people are

0:10:18 > 0:10:21coming forward for voluntary redundancy from the military side,

0:10:21 > 0:10:25it is because fewer people are coming forward. We cannot dictate

0:10:25 > 0:10:30how many people come forward for voluntary redundancy. We just have

0:10:30 > 0:10:34to respond to the situation as it arises. What about the second part?

0:10:34 > 0:10:37They still have huge shortages, fill them with the staff that don't

0:10:37 > 0:10:42want to go. We are clear in saying that we are offering retraining

0:10:42 > 0:10:46wherever we can. Obviously not enough. If you are having to make

0:10:46 > 0:10:51that number of people, 40%, redundant and there are that many

0:10:51 > 0:10:54vacancies, there is a mismatch? There is never the case where every

0:10:54 > 0:10:57individual is suitable for every vacancy. But we are doing

0:10:57 > 0:11:02everything we can. Why would we pay somebody off if we can retrain

0:11:02 > 0:11:08them? I don't know, I think that is the question. Of course, we will

0:11:08 > 0:11:11try to do that. Liam Byrne, there is a practical reality here. Labour

0:11:11 > 0:11:16supports the cuts, as they stand, presumably? Reductions need to be

0:11:16 > 0:11:20made, but this is a cross-party House of Commons select committee

0:11:21 > 0:11:26and it is a pretty damning indictment. Yes, using the words

0:11:26 > 0:11:30grotesque and shocking. It is frankly letting the troops down. I

0:11:30 > 0:11:33have met senior officers that have looked at what is happening and

0:11:33 > 0:11:37have taken successful jobs in the private sector. They say there is

0:11:38 > 0:11:42not the kind of retraining opportunities to help them take

0:11:42 > 0:11:46roles that are available in the MoD on of the civilian side. The

0:11:46 > 0:11:50Government cannot be complacent. We need to step back, that that the

0:11:50 > 0:11:54detail of the report and perhaps take on board recommendations.

0:11:54 > 0:11:59be fair to Chris Grayling, he said that not enough people were coming

0:11:59 > 0:12:01forward for voluntary redundancy. What do you do in that situation?

0:12:01 > 0:12:04When the report is saying that troops are being let down and not

0:12:04 > 0:12:07given enough opportunities to retrain and potentially fulfilled

0:12:08 > 0:12:11roles within the MoD, the Government should not dismiss it

0:12:11 > 0:12:16out of hand. It should sit down with the committee and see if there

0:12:16 > 0:12:23is more that the Government can do. Britain's national debt is at a

0:12:23 > 0:12:28record high. It is one trillion pounds. That is almost as much as

0:12:28 > 0:12:32Jo's expenses! In a nutshell, the Governor of the Bank of England

0:12:32 > 0:12:37said it is not looking pretty, but don't worry, it will be OK in the

0:12:37 > 0:12:41end. He did not say when the end might be. The IMF has weighed in as

0:12:41 > 0:12:45well. It is not just Britain that is doomed. It says the rest of the

0:12:45 > 0:12:50world economy is going to suffer, especially the eurozone, where it

0:12:50 > 0:12:54predicts a recession. Jo, bring us up to date.

0:12:54 > 0:12:59This morning, the Office of National Statistics announced that

0:12:59 > 0:13:04the UK economy shrank by 0.2% in the 4th quarter of 2011. That is

0:13:04 > 0:13:09down from 0.6% that the economy grew between July and September.

0:13:09 > 0:13:13The bad news seems unlikely to stop here. Yesterday, the International

0:13:13 > 0:13:19Monetary Fund revised down its forecast for the UK 2012 growth,

0:13:19 > 0:13:22from 1.6%, down to 0.6%. At least we are not alone. The IMF forecast

0:13:22 > 0:13:29for growth in the eurozone has also been scaled down from 1.1%

0:13:29 > 0:13:32expansion, the eurozone economy is now projected to shrink by 0.5%. In

0:13:32 > 0:13:36a speech yesterday, the Bank of England governor Mervyn King struck

0:13:36 > 0:13:40a downbeat note, saying that the path of recovery is likely to be

0:13:40 > 0:13:44arduous, long and uneven. But, in case these gloomy figures are

0:13:44 > 0:13:49getting you down, he added that there is no need to despair.

0:13:50 > 0:13:53Earlier, George Osborne gave his reaction. Well, they are

0:13:53 > 0:13:56disappointing figures about what happened to the economy at the end

0:13:56 > 0:13:59of last year. They are not entirely unexpected because of what is

0:14:00 > 0:14:04happening in the world and they eurozone crisis. They are similar

0:14:05 > 0:14:10to what our independent forecasters predicted in November. Now, Britain

0:14:10 > 0:14:13has substantially built up debts over the last 10 years. We are

0:14:13 > 0:14:17dealing with those. But the truth is, dealing with the problems is

0:14:17 > 0:14:21made more difficult by the situation in the eurozone. Clearly,

0:14:21 > 0:14:25what is happening at home is also affected by what happens abroad.

0:14:25 > 0:14:29Joining me now is our Economics Correspondent Hugh Pym. There has

0:14:29 > 0:14:39always been this talk about a double-dip recession. Does that

0:14:39 > 0:14:39

0:14:40 > 0:14:44I don't think it looks inevitable. We have just had this preliminary

0:14:44 > 0:14:50figure of 0.2. It could be revised when subsequent data comes in. We

0:14:50 > 0:14:54are in the current first quarter of 2012. It looks possible that that

0:14:54 > 0:14:59might be slightly negative. Then you would have two in quarters of

0:14:59 > 0:15:04negative declining output. That is technically a recession but it

0:15:04 > 0:15:09could be zero or 0.1. I think what economists will say is it is

0:15:09 > 0:15:17consistent with a flat economy, the economy not lurching back as it did

0:15:17 > 0:15:22in 2008 / 9 but not rebounding. It is almost stalling, moving ahead in

0:15:22 > 0:15:26a lacklustre fashion. George Osborne blames the eurozone for

0:15:26 > 0:15:31many of the problems here in Britain and that does not look like

0:15:31 > 0:15:35it will be sorted any time soon, does it? Yes, indeed. For France

0:15:35 > 0:15:40and Germany, their 4th quarter figures will show something

0:15:40 > 0:15:43negative as well, so Britain was not alone in having declining

0:15:43 > 0:15:47output in the 4th quarter of last year. Although the IMF is

0:15:47 > 0:15:51forecasting a eurozone negative situation this year, the IMF still

0:15:51 > 0:15:56thinks the UK will grow slightly. But does not help the UK in the

0:15:56 > 0:16:00sense that we do do a lot of trade with the eurozone. A solution of

0:16:00 > 0:16:06some sort to the debt problem is seen as hugely important for the

0:16:06 > 0:16:10eurozone, as -- and the UK because of our trade. There is no sign of

0:16:10 > 0:16:14an imminent solution. All these forecasts I have been referring to,

0:16:14 > 0:16:22assume that the euro hangs together and they muddle through somehow.

0:16:22 > 0:16:28Thank you. We are joined now by Louise Cooper, an old friend of

0:16:28 > 0:16:32this programme. It is fair to say, is it not, whatever the rights and

0:16:32 > 0:16:37wrongs of the government's policy, the inability of the eurozone to

0:16:37 > 0:16:42sort out its own problems is acting as a drag across the European

0:16:42 > 0:16:48Union? Without a shadow of a doubt. To be fair to Osborne and Cameron,

0:16:48 > 0:16:53I don't think policy makers in the UK are in charge of the UK's

0:16:53 > 0:16:58destiny any more. Really, it is all about the eurozone. It continues to

0:16:58 > 0:17:07be Ns. We do not have the details of how the bail-out funds will work.

0:17:08 > 0:17:14The S F -- the GSM, the new bail- out fund, it is supposed in place

0:17:14 > 0:17:18by July, do we have much detail,? No. The Greek debt swap talks which

0:17:18 > 0:17:22was supposed to happen and we were promised it would be done in the

0:17:22 > 0:17:26next couple of days, the latest I have heard we have a deadline in

0:17:26 > 0:17:34the middle of February. They have got to do it by March 20th, in fact

0:17:34 > 0:17:40they have to do it before then to get the legality is struck. Yes,

0:17:40 > 0:17:44Greece has 14.5 billion euros bond maturing on March 20th and they do

0:17:44 > 0:17:52not have 14.5 billion euros tucked down the back of the sofa. Joe it

0:17:52 > 0:17:56does. -- Jo does. I'm generous like that! They have got to get back

0:17:56 > 0:17:59together. I was on the tube with a friend of mine who has been in the

0:17:59 > 0:18:05city for 30 years and the view from the financial markets is a great

0:18:05 > 0:18:09deal will be done. He said he thought the chance of a default was

0:18:09 > 0:18:1470 %. That is not what people in the markets think at the moment.

0:18:14 > 0:18:18Greece has not gone away. All these problems have not gone away. We in

0:18:18 > 0:18:23the UK are so badly affected by what is happening in the eurozone.

0:18:23 > 0:18:29Chris Grayling, what happened to George Osborne's march of the

0:18:29 > 0:18:33makers? June 2010, emergency budget, the Chancellor - Britain will be

0:18:33 > 0:18:36borne aloft by the march of the makers. What happened? We are

0:18:36 > 0:18:41looking to create an environment where we can build manufacturing,

0:18:41 > 0:18:48where we can get research and develop ment, we have made changes

0:18:48 > 0:18:50to the corporate tax system, the truth is, over the last few months,

0:18:50 > 0:18:53as the Office of Budget Responsibility has said, first we

0:18:53 > 0:18:58had the big rise in global commodity prices and are the last

0:18:58 > 0:19:01two months we have had the eurozone crisis. I sat with a group from

0:19:01 > 0:19:05Liverpool who said from their perspective, when the eurozone

0:19:05 > 0:19:11crisis started become visible and a major problem, it was as if a break

0:19:11 > 0:19:15was put on to commercial and investment in new property.

0:19:15 > 0:19:19Although we are not part of the eurozone, we are affected by it.

0:19:19 > 0:19:24but there can be no much of the makers when industrial production

0:19:24 > 0:19:28fell 1.2 %, that is the collapse of the makers. We have to do

0:19:28 > 0:19:32everything we can to encourage and stimulate growth. Can we accept

0:19:32 > 0:19:35that so far the march of the makers has not happened? We can accept

0:19:36 > 0:19:40that the march of the makers remains a priority for us and it is

0:19:40 > 0:19:45not much and as fast as we would wish. It is a bit like the Italian

0:19:45 > 0:19:49army, they are marching in reverse, to get into a stereotype. The truth

0:19:49 > 0:19:54is, none of our economy is performing in the way that we wish.

0:19:54 > 0:19:57If you look at Germany, today's figures actually lower than the

0:19:57 > 0:20:02most recent German economic forecast for their own economy.

0:20:02 > 0:20:04They are predicting a drop even greater than ours. The National

0:20:04 > 0:20:09Loan guarantee Scheme which is supposed to help small businesses,

0:20:09 > 0:20:13how many loans has it guaranteed? do not know because I am not in the

0:20:13 > 0:20:17Treasury. You're just telling me about what businessmen liveable

0:20:17 > 0:20:20were telling you. We cannot find out what it has done at all. Are

0:20:20 > 0:20:25you aware that it has done anything was that what has the Local

0:20:25 > 0:20:30Enterprise Partnership done? They are running all round the come tree.

0:20:30 > 0:20:35What have they done? They are to encourage investment -- all around

0:20:35 > 0:20:40the country. We have seen investments still coming into the

0:20:40 > 0:20:44UK. That is not the Local Enterprise Partnership. What has

0:20:44 > 0:20:48the regional growth fund done? are providing funds for

0:20:48 > 0:20:53manufacturing businesses. If you take the north-east, for example,

0:20:53 > 0:20:57the regional growth fund has provided investment capital been to

0:20:57 > 0:21:02research and development facilities, into the chemical industry, for

0:21:02 > 0:21:06example. We are pulling every lever that we can. How much has the

0:21:06 > 0:21:13regional growth fund given to the north-east of England? From memory,

0:21:13 > 0:21:16it is about �50 million. That is it? And we have debts of a trillion.

0:21:16 > 0:21:19The regional growth fund first tranche was about a billion pounds

0:21:19 > 0:21:28but that is spread around the country. Has Labour got a policy on

0:21:28 > 0:21:33this? Of course. We have put a plan. To add to our debt? In the medium

0:21:33 > 0:21:38term, debt has got to come down but that job is harder to get the

0:21:38 > 0:21:42medium debt down if you have dole bills going through the roof. You

0:21:43 > 0:21:47have dole bills, housing benefit, incapacity benefit going up by

0:21:47 > 0:21:51nearly �8 billion higher than originally expected. That does not

0:21:51 > 0:21:55make a debt easier to pay down, it makes it harder. You asked where

0:21:55 > 0:21:58the makers have gone, they have gone to the back of the dole queue.

0:21:58 > 0:22:02We have unemployment in this country going up faster than

0:22:02 > 0:22:05America, France, Germany and Japan because in the last year the

0:22:05 > 0:22:09economy has been stalling and now it has gone into reverse. The only

0:22:09 > 0:22:13reason we did not go into recession last year is because we were

0:22:13 > 0:22:17exporting our way. We do think the government has got to change course

0:22:17 > 0:22:24and they should listen to the IMF he said the government should

0:22:24 > 0:22:31consider changing course. How much would you add to the debt?, in the

0:22:31 > 0:22:36upcoming financial year how much would you add? Some methods would

0:22:36 > 0:22:40be self financing. A cut in VAT would be temporary so that would be

0:22:40 > 0:22:4212 billion a year, in order to get a medium term position implies.

0:22:42 > 0:22:47What would the reaction of the markets be if the British

0:22:47 > 0:22:54government did that? At the moment, the UK is in a lovely position of

0:22:54 > 0:22:59being able to borrow very cheaply. Last week, 50 year government debt

0:22:59 > 0:23:05actually yielded below 3% for the first time other. If you have to

0:23:05 > 0:23:11buy 50 year gilts, you would get less than 3% back a year. That is

0:23:11 > 0:23:16astonishing. At the moment, there was a gilt auction yesterday,

0:23:16 > 0:23:23massively oversubscribed. Investors at them and a love buying UK debt.

0:23:23 > 0:23:28If we ever threaten that, then we are in a very dire position. What

0:23:28 > 0:23:32you mean threaten it? The trouble with debt figures is when the

0:23:32 > 0:23:36economy starts -- starts to slow down, they explode very quickly.

0:23:36 > 0:23:41Far more so than any politicians and a forecast. You look at Greece,

0:23:41 > 0:23:44Ireland, Portugal, the debt forecast started here, the economy

0:23:44 > 0:23:49started slowing down, they ballooned really quickly. You have

0:23:49 > 0:23:55to avoid that. We do not want to be the next Italy and Spain. We have

0:23:56 > 0:23:58to avoid that. Louise Cooper, thank you. We have Prime Minister's

0:23:58 > 0:24:01questions, we cannot be late for that!

0:24:01 > 0:24:05The more this -- the more perceptive among you might have

0:24:05 > 0:24:08noticed that tonight is Burns Night. I'm sure Alex Salmond's decision

0:24:08 > 0:24:14that line his plans for a referendum have nothing to do with

0:24:14 > 0:24:18that at all! He once the referendum on the anniversary of Bannockburn,

0:24:18 > 0:24:22a mere coincidence, I say. A very happy Burns Night to you all.

0:24:23 > 0:24:26Across the globe many a patriotic Scot will no doubt be sinking a

0:24:26 > 0:24:30couple o' wee drams as well as addressing and feasting upon the

0:24:30 > 0:24:33haggis. What you might not know is that a similar tradition exists

0:24:33 > 0:24:39here in our small corner of Westminster. Yes, in time-honoured

0:24:39 > 0:24:49tradition, I shall now perform "An Address to the Mug". Little John,

0:24:49 > 0:24:49

0:24:49 > 0:24:53bring on the mug. Never heard before! Fair fa' your honest,

0:24:53 > 0:24:56sonsie face, Great chieftain o' the MUG-race! Aboon them a' ye tak your

0:24:57 > 0:25:06place, Painch, tripe, or thairm, Weel are ye wordy o' a grace As

0:25:07 > 0:25:08

0:25:08 > 0:25:15lang's my arm. How my supposed to follow that?! I have no idea what I

0:25:15 > 0:25:22just said. I thought you where Flint in Gaelic. -- fluent in

0:25:22 > 0:25:27Gaelic. To be honest, the tray is pretty weird with the greenery.

0:25:27 > 0:25:33do not get this on Sky News, you know. We have grown it in the Daily

0:25:33 > 0:25:41Politics green house. Carry on! am not doing this in any accent

0:25:41 > 0:25:46except my own! To win a chance -- to get a chance

0:25:46 > 0:25:56of winning a mug, you can enter our competition. Seed you can guess

0:25:56 > 0:26:35

0:26:35 > 0:26:43when this happened. -- see it you If the police stand for sanctions

0:26:43 > 0:26:53and penalties, you should stand for help and love. Hugging a hoody is

0:26:53 > 0:27:00

0:27:00 > 0:27:05And to be in with a chance of winning a Daily Politics mug, send

0:27:05 > 0:27:12your answer to our special quiz e- mail address. Full terms and

0:27:12 > 0:27:17conditions for Guess the Year are on our website.

0:27:17 > 0:27:21It is coming to midday here. Let's take a look at Big Ben. It can only

0:27:21 > 0:27:28mean one thing as it is a Wednesday, Prime Minister's Questions and also

0:27:28 > 0:27:31Nick Robinson of the BBC. What will happen? Of course, the economy. One

0:27:31 > 0:27:35thing that will be interesting is that Ed Balls, the shadow

0:27:35 > 0:27:41chancellor and who knows, Ed Miliband are seizing on some

0:27:41 > 0:27:45remarks made by the IMF. We had the report yesterday, warning of a

0:27:45 > 0:27:501930s style crisis on Monday. Yesterday, our economics editor was

0:27:51 > 0:27:55quoting someone in the IMF saying there may be a case for the UK to

0:27:55 > 0:27:59slow down in order to support growth. We now have the words used

0:27:59 > 0:28:03in the injured the -- in the year and they are very interesting. To

0:28:03 > 0:28:08the extent that these countries - he is talking about Britain and

0:28:08 > 0:28:14Germany - to the extent that these countries have plausible medium-

0:28:14 > 0:28:18term plans, they can slow down and it would help. So we do not need to

0:28:18 > 0:28:22cut as deep as we were? He answers - we have some room to do something

0:28:22 > 0:28:26if needed, yes. He doesn't then go on and say,

0:28:26 > 0:28:30Britain may have a particular problem because having set out a

0:28:30 > 0:28:36plan, there is a price incredibility. If you deviate from

0:28:36 > 0:28:43the plan. But three times when pushed, he says, yes, Britain does

0:28:43 > 0:28:47have some flexibility to promote some growth. Liam Byrne mentioned

0:28:47 > 0:28:52it before you came on. I did not know you had mentioned that but it

0:28:52 > 0:28:56will start a bit of a debate. People find Westminster politics

0:28:56 > 0:29:02complicated enough, there is IMF politics as well. Traditionally,

0:29:02 > 0:29:05the boss of the IMF is a former politician. They deal with politics,

0:29:05 > 0:29:09they do not fall out with the government. I do not expect

0:29:09 > 0:29:13Christine Lagarde to say anything unhelpful when she meets George

0:29:13 > 0:29:18Osborne, particularly as she needs hundreds of millions of dollars

0:29:18 > 0:29:21from countries like the UK to have a bigger IMF fund but it is

0:29:21 > 0:29:25interesting but IMF economists are saying, look, Britain, there is a

0:29:25 > 0:29:29bit of space to do something here. What is your reaction, Chris

0:29:29 > 0:29:33Grayling? I think we have to be enormously careful. If we were to

0:29:33 > 0:29:37lose the confidence of the markets, and bear in mind we have

0:29:37 > 0:29:40exceptionally low interest rates, any interest -- any increase in

0:29:40 > 0:29:44interest rates would lead to greater pressures on the public

0:29:44 > 0:29:47finances. It would lead to higher mortgage rates where those rates

0:29:47 > 0:29:53are variable and the market, where people are looking to sign up to

0:29:53 > 0:29:59fixed rates. I think it is a dangerous path to tread. Even with

0:29:59 > 0:30:03the sanction of the IMF? As we heard a moment ago, if we get the

0:30:03 > 0:30:07markets wrong, the consequences for Britain are massive. I do not

0:30:07 > 0:30:13personally believe that this is the moment for Britain to announce we

0:30:13 > 0:30:17should increase borrowing. I think you read between the lines, you can

0:30:17 > 0:30:22see what he is trying to say, do you take that as an endorsement to

0:30:22 > 0:30:27some extent of Labour's position on the economy? They are very

0:30:27 > 0:30:33significant remarks. The government is having to borrow extra because

0:30:33 > 0:30:40it has undershot its growth forecast. 158 billion is a lot of

0:30:40 > 0:30:45money. And you add up all the years. In a body's language. Our message

0:30:45 > 0:30:47is simple, there is flexibility there. If he did change course, you

0:30:47 > 0:30:57can maintain market flexibility because you have a better story

0:30:57 > 0:31:02

0:31:02 > 0:31:06about tax revenues coming in. This morning, I had meetings with

0:31:06 > 0:31:10ministerial colleagues and others. The Prime Minister frequently

0:31:10 > 0:31:14claims that he is not complacent about the tragedy of youth

0:31:14 > 0:31:20unemployment. Can he tell the House why his youth contract scheme still

0:31:21 > 0:31:24has not started? Well, the youth contract scheme will make a big

0:31:24 > 0:31:30difference to young people because it will, over the course of the

0:31:30 > 0:31:34coming years, have 160,000 places for people on private sector firms.

0:31:34 > 0:31:39That will be far better than the failed future jobs fund, which, in

0:31:39 > 0:31:43some cases, had over 97% of jobs placed in the public sector. It

0:31:43 > 0:31:52will be up and running this year and make a big difference to young

0:31:52 > 0:32:00people. Mr Speaker, today is the anniversary of the birth of the

0:32:00 > 0:32:03great Scottish poet Robert Burns. Does the Prime Minister agree that

0:32:03 > 0:32:10-- with his impassioned plea for the unity of our nation when he

0:32:10 > 0:32:17says in his poem, the Britain still, to Britain true, a man ourselves,

0:32:17 > 0:32:25United. For never but to buy British hands, made British wrongs

0:32:25 > 0:32:30I'm grateful to the Honourable Lady for her question. The point she

0:32:30 > 0:32:34makes is a good one. Burns Night will be celebrated not just across

0:32:34 > 0:32:38Scotland, but across the whole of the United Kingdom and, indeed, in

0:32:38 > 0:32:42many parts of the world. When I hear the Scottish nationalists, who

0:32:42 > 0:32:50are so keen to leave the United Kingdom, yet so anxious about

0:32:50 > 0:33:00having a referendum, perhaps they should remember his words, the

0:33:00 > 0:33:08

0:33:08 > 0:33:12cowering beastie, what a panic Ed Miliband. Mr Speaker, we are 18

0:33:12 > 0:33:17months into his government and today's figures show the economy is

0:33:17 > 0:33:23not growing, it is shrinking. What has gone wrong with his economic

0:33:23 > 0:33:29plan? Well, these are extremely difficult economic times. These are

0:33:29 > 0:33:32disappointing figures. They are not unexpected figures. They are what

0:33:32 > 0:33:38the Office of Budget Responsibility for past at the end of last year. I

0:33:38 > 0:33:45will be frank with the Honourable Gentleman. They reflect the

0:33:45 > 0:33:48overhang of their debt and deficit. They reflect the higher food and

0:33:48 > 0:33:53fuel prices that put a squeeze on household income towards the end of

0:33:53 > 0:33:58last year. Yes, they also reflect the crisis in the eurozone that has

0:33:58 > 0:34:04frozen Europe's economies. The forecast for France, Germany, Spain,

0:34:04 > 0:34:09Italy, for the end of last year, forecast as greater decline or, in

0:34:09 > 0:34:11many cases, as great a decline. This is the year where we have to

0:34:12 > 0:34:15take further action to get the economy moving. The most important

0:34:15 > 0:34:21thing is to have a credible plan to get on top of the deficit which has

0:34:21 > 0:34:25given us the lowest interest rates for over 100 years. Mr Speaker,

0:34:25 > 0:34:30people are fed up with his excuses about what is happening in our

0:34:30 > 0:34:36economy. He blames the eurozone. Growth has been flat-lining in our

0:34:36 > 0:34:42economy since well before the eurozone crisis. In fact, since his

0:34:42 > 0:34:48spending review in autumn 2010. What has characterised the

0:34:48 > 0:34:53Government's approach throughout this period? Total arrogance. In

0:34:53 > 0:35:00his first Budget, the Chancellor painted a glowing picture of what

0:35:00 > 0:35:04his policies would deliver for the economy. He said his policies would

0:35:04 > 0:35:09deliver a steady and sustained economic recovery with falling

0:35:09 > 0:35:14unemployment. We have a shrinking economy and the highest

0:35:14 > 0:35:20unemployment in 18 years. Mr Speaker, how bad do things have to

0:35:20 > 0:35:24get in our economy to shake him out of his complacency? As usual, he

0:35:24 > 0:35:30writes the question before he listens to the answer. I didn't

0:35:30 > 0:35:33trust say that this is an issue of the eurozone. -- didn't just say

0:35:33 > 0:35:36that this is an issue of the eurozone. It's an issue of debt,

0:35:36 > 0:35:42deficit, a squeeze household incomes and issues affecting many

0:35:42 > 0:35:45other economies. He talks about our policy, we remember his policy, no

0:35:46 > 0:35:49more boom and bust. He gave us the biggest boom and bust that we are

0:35:49 > 0:35:55having to recover from. There is not one ounce of complacency. That

0:35:55 > 0:36:05is why we are cutting corporation tax, we scratch Labour's jobs tax,

0:36:05 > 0:36:05

0:36:05 > 0:36:08we have traduced record sums... Order! Both the Prime Minister and

0:36:08 > 0:36:13the lead role of the opposition must be heard. We are doing all of

0:36:13 > 0:36:18these things. The party opposite has only one answer, to deal with a

0:36:18 > 0:36:22debt crisis by borrowing more and adding to debt. That is his answer.

0:36:22 > 0:36:27That would wreck our interest rates, wreck the economy and make things

0:36:27 > 0:36:32much worse. Mr Speaker, he says there is not one ounce of

0:36:32 > 0:36:36complacency. But he and his Chancellor of the byword for self-

0:36:37 > 0:36:41satisfied, smug complacency. That is the reality. He talks about

0:36:41 > 0:36:45borrowing. He is failing not just on unemployment, not just on growth,

0:36:45 > 0:36:52but on borrowing as well. Because of his failure on growth and

0:36:52 > 0:36:56unemployment, he is borrowing �158 billion more than he forecast. And

0:36:56 > 0:37:01now we know, he said unemployment would fall, it is not. He said the

0:37:01 > 0:37:05economy would grow, it hasn't. He said we are all in this together,

0:37:05 > 0:37:12we are not! When will this Prime Minister face up to the fact that

0:37:12 > 0:37:17it is his policies that are failing the country. Our economy grew last

0:37:17 > 0:37:25year. But he cannot find it in himself... There are more people in

0:37:25 > 0:37:32work today than there were at the time of the last election.

0:37:32 > 0:37:35house must calm itself. We were given clear instruction yesterday

0:37:35 > 0:37:40at 5:00pm that the shadow chancellor said that the Government

0:37:40 > 0:37:46should listen to the IMF and change course. At 7pm, the IMF told us

0:37:46 > 0:37:50what we should do. They said this, we do not think that fiscal

0:37:50 > 0:37:55consolidation adds to the problem. Fiscal consolidation is part of

0:37:55 > 0:37:59resolving the problems facing the UK economy. That is the truth, Mr

0:37:59 > 0:38:03Speaker. There are two parties in this country taking responsibility

0:38:03 > 0:38:13for clearing up the mess. There is one party refusing to take

0:38:13 > 0:38:16

0:38:16 > 0:38:23Sir Fred Goodwin has recently been censured by the FSA in their report

0:38:23 > 0:38:25into the RBS shambles. Can the Prime Minister tell the House when

0:38:25 > 0:38:30the honours forfeiture committee will be sitting to consider

0:38:30 > 0:38:34stripping this man of his ill- deserved knighthood? The they will

0:38:34 > 0:38:39be meeting, as I understand it, this week. It will be considering

0:38:39 > 0:38:43all the evidence, including, as I have said before, the Financial

0:38:43 > 0:38:50Services Authority report into RBS and what went wrong, who was

0:38:50 > 0:38:55responsible for what went wrong. Speaker, I seem to get more

0:38:55 > 0:38:59reaction from Labour than their own leader. Does the Prime Minister

0:38:59 > 0:39:02agree that in Scotland the people are sovereign. They have the right

0:39:02 > 0:39:07to determine their own constitutional future as they see

0:39:07 > 0:39:10fit? Of course, this is an issue for the people of Scotland. I think

0:39:10 > 0:39:15that we should bring forward the date when we put the question to

0:39:15 > 0:39:22the Scottish people on whether they want to stay in the United Kingdom,

0:39:22 > 0:39:24which I ideally hope that we do, or whether they want to leave. I think

0:39:24 > 0:39:28the point everybody needs to understand is that options for

0:39:28 > 0:39:34further devolution and changes across the United Kingdom are

0:39:34 > 0:39:44matters for of the United Kingdom, matters that the United Kingdom

0:39:44 > 0:39:48

0:39:48 > 0:39:57May I put it to the Prime Minister that for Britain to commit still

0:39:57 > 0:40:04more funds to the IMF would, in effect, be providing he subsidy to

0:40:04 > 0:40:10Germany? Because it is still not fully supporting its own currency,

0:40:10 > 0:40:16while benefiting from its appreciation. The right honourable

0:40:16 > 0:40:19member makes an important point. Of course, the IMF, the managing

0:40:19 > 0:40:23director Christine the guard, she is in London today. Our message has

0:40:23 > 0:40:27been clear that they should not be a question of committing further

0:40:27 > 0:40:30IMF funds until the eurozone itself has shown that it is

0:40:30 > 0:40:37comprehensively going to stand behind its own currency. I think if

0:40:37 > 0:40:46you read Christine Lagard's speech last night in Germany, she made

0:40:46 > 0:40:52absolutely clear that the role the IMF is to support currencies and

0:40:52 > 0:40:57not countries. The Prime Minister said about his flagship health bill,

0:40:57 > 0:41:01and I quote, we have the Royal College of GPs, physicians, nurses,

0:41:01 > 0:41:03people working in the health service supporting changes we are

0:41:03 > 0:41:11making. Can the Prime Minister give the house and update on the support

0:41:11 > 0:41:15for his bill from the medical profession? I have certainly

0:41:15 > 0:41:20learned that when it comes to the NHS you should always expect a

0:41:20 > 0:41:26second opinion. Conceivably even a third opinion. The point is this.

0:41:26 > 0:41:33Them are thousands of GPs across the country, not just supporting

0:41:33 > 0:41:43our reforms, they are actually implementing our reforms. Let me,

0:41:43 > 0:41:43

0:41:43 > 0:41:48if I may, give him one example of a supportive GP. Order! Honourable

0:41:48 > 0:41:54Members should not be yelling out. The question was asked, the answer

0:41:54 > 0:42:02will be given and the answer will be heard. I think they want to hear

0:42:02 > 0:42:06from this one particular GP who hails from Doncaster. He said this

0:42:06 > 0:42:10when he was the acting chairman of the Doncaster GP commissioning

0:42:11 > 0:42:15group. He said, becoming one of the first national pathfinder areas is

0:42:15 > 0:42:22a real boost for Doncaster. I think what is good for Doncaster is good

0:42:22 > 0:42:29for the rest of the country. Speaker, how out of touch is he

0:42:29 > 0:42:35about what is happening in the NHS? Let me tell him what the medical

0:42:35 > 0:42:40profession is saying. The latest survey of the Royal College of GPs

0:42:40 > 0:42:44says that 98% of GPs want the Bill withdrawn. The Royal College of

0:42:44 > 0:42:49Nursing have said, and I quote, the turmoil of proceeding with these

0:42:49 > 0:42:54reforms is now greater than the turmoil of stopping them. Now, the

0:42:54 > 0:42:58Prime Minister said in his famous listing exercise, change, if it is

0:42:58 > 0:43:02to endure, to really work, should have the support of people who work

0:43:02 > 0:43:06in the NHS. We have to take our nurses and doctors with us. Mr

0:43:06 > 0:43:11Speaker, if he wants to hear the voice of doctors and nurses across

0:43:11 > 0:43:21the NHS, why doesn't he listen? seems to be out of touch with what

0:43:21 > 0:43:22

0:43:22 > 0:43:26is actually happening in Doncaster. He asks what is happening in the

0:43:26 > 0:43:31NHS. Let me tell him what is happening in the NHS. 4000 extra

0:43:31 > 0:43:36doctors since the election. 100,000 more patients treated since the

0:43:36 > 0:43:42election. In-patient and out- patient waiting times lower than

0:43:42 > 0:43:49they were at the election. �7 billion of the �20 billion already

0:43:49 > 0:43:52saved. And, at the same time, we have got hospital and quiet --

0:43:52 > 0:43:57hospital acquired infections at lowest-ever levels. That is what is

0:43:57 > 0:43:59happening in the NHS. It would listen to him we would be cut in

0:43:59 > 0:44:03funding in the NHS, scrapping reforms and the NHS would be

0:44:03 > 0:44:07getting worse, not better. I'll tell him what is happening in the

0:44:07 > 0:44:13NHS. Waiting lists at the, morale down, and his own health select

0:44:13 > 0:44:18committee, majority Conservative committee, what do they say about

0:44:19 > 0:44:22the reorganisation? They say that it will be disruption and

0:44:22 > 0:44:27disruption -- destruction that hinders the ability to create

0:44:27 > 0:44:33savings. This is a pill nobody wants. It is opposed by doctors,

0:44:33 > 0:44:37nurses and patients. Before the election, he said no more top-down

0:44:38 > 0:44:43reorganisation. That is what he said. Isn't it time that he kept at

0:44:44 > 0:44:51least one promise? Put aside his pride and arrogance and drop this

0:44:51 > 0:44:54unnecessary and unwanted bill. know that he panics and backs down

0:44:54 > 0:45:01at the first time of a trade union saying no. But this government does

0:45:01 > 0:45:04not. Of course, if you introduce choice, if you introduced

0:45:04 > 0:45:10transparency, competition, if you say that the private and voluntary

0:45:10 > 0:45:13sectors should play a greater role, of course you face a challenge. But

0:45:13 > 0:45:19that it is what doing the right thing is sometimes all about. Let

0:45:19 > 0:45:23him remember what his Health Secretary said when he was in

0:45:23 > 0:45:28government. He said about a GP commissioning, he said this, the

0:45:28 > 0:45:34change will put power in that hands of local GPs to drive improvements

0:45:34 > 0:45:37in the area so it should give more power to their elbow than they have

0:45:37 > 0:45:41at present. That is what I would like to see. What a shame that they

0:45:41 > 0:45:50talk about it in government, but they don't have the guts to face

0:45:50 > 0:45:56down opposition when they are in Following the death of 167 workers

0:45:56 > 0:45:58in the Piper Alpha disaster in the North Sea, this country developed a

0:45:58 > 0:46:03world leading safety case regime for offshore oil and gas which is

0:46:03 > 0:46:06now threatened by regulations from the European Union. Will he use his

0:46:06 > 0:46:10best endeavours to back his department for energy and climate

0:46:10 > 0:46:20change to persuade the rest of the European Union but what we need is

0:46:20 > 0:46:29

0:46:29 > 0:46:33no more regulation... Sorry, Mr Speaker. Not regulation but a

0:46:33 > 0:46:37directives, which can be implemented flexibly? I think my

0:46:37 > 0:46:41honourable friend makes an important point. I well remember

0:46:41 > 0:46:45the Piper Alpha disaster and the huge suffering and loss of life

0:46:45 > 0:46:49that that caused. Things that day we have put in place and absolutely

0:46:49 > 0:46:51world-leading system of regulation and I will do everything I can to

0:46:51 > 0:46:55support the climate change secretary to make sure we get a

0:46:55 > 0:47:00result in Europe which means we can go on for the right regulations for

0:47:00 > 0:47:04the North Sea. On the 2nd May 1920 10, the Prime

0:47:04 > 0:47:10Minister said the test of a good society was how it cared for the

0:47:10 > 0:47:12frail and vulnerable, even more important in difficult economic

0:47:12 > 0:47:16times. Will the Prime Minister not defending the basics sense of

0:47:16 > 0:47:21decency of the British people if he persists next week with proposals

0:47:22 > 0:47:27to take away up to �94 per week in employment and support allowance

0:47:27 > 0:47:32from up to 7,000 recovering cancer patients across the country? What

0:47:33 > 0:47:38our plans envisage is actually more people, with cancer, will have the

0:47:38 > 0:47:42greater level of benefit and fewer people will actually face the face-

0:47:42 > 0:47:45to-face interview. That is the case. As he knows, there are two types of

0:47:46 > 0:47:49employment and support allowance. On the support group, you get that

0:47:49 > 0:47:53money forever for as long as you need it, as long as you are unable

0:47:53 > 0:47:57to work. Many people with cancer will go straight into that group

0:47:57 > 0:48:02and quite right, too. I know my right honourable friend

0:48:02 > 0:48:05was aware that the Coryton oil refinery in my constituency went

0:48:05 > 0:48:09into protective administration yesterday, and while the future is

0:48:09 > 0:48:12uncertain, it is by no means bleak. Does my right honourable friend

0:48:12 > 0:48:16agree with me but what is needed now to protect the 1,000 jobs the

0:48:16 > 0:48:21refinery provides, is the full support of the customers and

0:48:21 > 0:48:24suppliers and for accurate reporting of the situation. Will

0:48:24 > 0:48:28the Prime Minister agree to ensure that and it with all relevant

0:48:28 > 0:48:33ministers to discuss what further action the government can take to

0:48:33 > 0:48:36secure this important is this? My honourable friend is absolutely

0:48:36 > 0:48:40right to raise this issue and is right to mention the importance of

0:48:40 > 0:48:43the customers and suppliers and the role that they play. I will

0:48:43 > 0:48:47certainly ensure that he meets with ministers as appropriate. I think

0:48:47 > 0:48:50the key thing is the role of the administrator and the administrator

0:48:50 > 0:48:55has made it clear that its immediate priority is to continue

0:48:55 > 0:48:59to operate the refinery operations at Coryton and other sites owned

0:48:59 > 0:49:03the UK, while the financial position is clarified and all the

0:49:03 > 0:49:08restructuring options are explored. We are confident that the

0:49:08 > 0:49:13administrator is doing all that it can but we will keep on the case.

0:49:13 > 0:49:18The existing UK controls on the movement of terrorist suspects that

0:49:18 > 0:49:23today. This includes the case of suspect CD, of whom Mr Justice Owen

0:49:23 > 0:49:27said that his appeal last year, relocation is a necessary and

0:49:27 > 0:49:32proportion at measure to protect the public from an immediate and

0:49:33 > 0:49:36real risk of a terrorist rated -- related attack. Could the Prime

0:49:36 > 0:49:40Minister tell the House wide his government supporter that

0:49:40 > 0:49:45relocation power at the court hearing last year, but has since

0:49:45 > 0:49:50legislated to remove it and to give freedom to suspect CD and others

0:49:50 > 0:49:54like him, to come to London in the run-up to the Olympic games?

0:49:54 > 0:49:58think most people across this house realise that the control order

0:49:58 > 0:50:02regime needed reform. It did not have public confidence, nor did it

0:50:02 > 0:50:05have confidence of many people in the police and security services.

0:50:05 > 0:50:09We have reformed it, we have worked with the police and security

0:50:09 > 0:50:16services, we have put in all the resources they believe are

0:50:16 > 0:50:20necessary to make sure our country is kept say.

0:50:21 > 0:50:23Following the renewable energy subsidy review, will the Prime

0:50:23 > 0:50:26Minister ensured tax payers that this government will focus its

0:50:26 > 0:50:31support on technologies which are cost-effective and reliable like

0:50:32 > 0:50:37biomass, rather than inefficient, costly, large-scale offshore wind

0:50:37 > 0:50:40farms? My right honourable friend will know that the review

0:50:40 > 0:50:44obligation banding review consultation has just closed. It

0:50:44 > 0:50:48was proposing targeting only the most cost-effective onshore wind

0:50:48 > 0:50:54farms, recognising that it is now one of the more mature and cheaper

0:50:54 > 0:50:58technologies and we should increase support insubstantial biomass which

0:50:58 > 0:51:05is reliable, cost-effective and help us to meet our renewable

0:51:05 > 0:51:10energy targets. On Friday, Holocaust Memorial Day

0:51:10 > 0:51:14commemorates the liberation of the concentration and extermination

0:51:14 > 0:51:18camp at Auschwitz. What can the Prime Minister do to ensure that

0:51:18 > 0:51:21all of our society understand the depravity of the era of Nazi evil

0:51:21 > 0:51:26and learn the lessons of it for the present?

0:51:26 > 0:51:29I think the honourable lady has a long record of supporting the score

0:51:29 > 0:51:33speaks for the whole house and the whole nation in raising it and the

0:51:33 > 0:51:37importance of it. I met with representatives of the Holocaust

0:51:37 > 0:51:40Education Trust yesterday and met with a Holocaust survivor who story

0:51:40 > 0:51:45was truly inspiring about what he had seen and gone through as a

0:51:45 > 0:51:49young boy and then coming to Britain and becoming an Olympic and

0:51:49 > 0:51:52Commonwealth contender. It was a fantastic story. We need to ensure

0:51:52 > 0:51:57that these stories are told in all of our schools right across the

0:51:57 > 0:52:03country. That is the work of the Holocaust Education Trust added his

0:52:03 > 0:52:07work I strongly support. I wonder if the Prime Minister is aware that

0:52:07 > 0:52:13if one takes the whole of Lancaster, average household income after tax

0:52:13 > 0:52:17is a little above 26,000. And my constituents want a fair

0:52:17 > 0:52:23deal. They also want a fair deal for those who work and pay for

0:52:23 > 0:52:29benefits. I think the honourable gentleman speaks for many people

0:52:29 > 0:52:36that when we say proposal for a cap on benefits at �26,000 is fair. It

0:52:36 > 0:52:41is a cap which allows people to receive �500 a day. A week. His

0:52:41 > 0:52:45constituents ask themselves, is it right that my hard-earned taxes,

0:52:45 > 0:52:48when I am learning less than that money, is going to support people

0:52:49 > 0:52:53on benefits. I have to say how disappointing it was that after the

0:52:53 > 0:52:57Labour Party said it would support a cap, the announcement was made on

0:52:57 > 0:53:04the BBC. We were all told they would support a cap but in the

0:53:04 > 0:53:09Other Place they voted against it. What a complete act of hypocrisy!

0:53:09 > 0:53:13Following today's media reports, can the Prime Minister explain why

0:53:13 > 0:53:17ministerial advisers and senior civil servants continued to attend

0:53:17 > 0:53:20networking events with lobbyists who paid several thousand pounds to

0:53:20 > 0:53:24attend, despite the fact that the Cabinet Office had deemed this to

0:53:24 > 0:53:28be a breach of the Civil Service Code and previously issued a ban on

0:53:28 > 0:53:33attendance? The point I would make it is unlike under the previous

0:53:33 > 0:53:37government, there is actually a proper system for declaring the

0:53:37 > 0:53:42interests of special advisers and ministers. That did not used to be

0:53:43 > 0:53:48the case. It is now. My right honourable friend will

0:53:48 > 0:53:52have noted that the government proposed benefits cap excludes war

0:53:52 > 0:53:59widows, the disabled and those claiming working tax credit. Does

0:53:59 > 0:54:01it not agree with me that my constituents on the same wage as

0:54:01 > 0:54:07the number of Lancaster Fleetwood referred to, deserve to know they

0:54:07 > 0:54:09have a government who will do the right thing and support the local

0:54:09 > 0:54:15communities? I think the honourable gentleman speaks very powerfully

0:54:15 > 0:54:19about this issue. That is why a benefit cap is fair. He is also --

0:54:19 > 0:54:24it is also important to recognise that we are excluding from the

0:54:25 > 0:54:27benefit cap those entitled to working tax credit, some want with

0:54:27 > 0:54:30a disability living allowance and we have always said there will be a

0:54:30 > 0:54:35hardship fund, a grace period and a way of helping those families to

0:54:35 > 0:54:38cope with this cap and to make sure, where possible, we get people into

0:54:38 > 0:54:42work because the real shame is there are millions of children who

0:54:42 > 0:54:49live in households where nobody works and indeed, that number

0:54:49 > 0:54:53doubled under the last government. The Prime Minister has said and I

0:54:53 > 0:54:58quote: It would be a personal betrayal if banks failed to

0:54:58 > 0:55:01increase lending to businesses. Yet, last week, the Bank of England

0:55:01 > 0:55:06stated that businesses are still not getting the investment they

0:55:06 > 0:55:10need from the banks. Have the banks betrayed the Prime Minister or has

0:55:10 > 0:55:15the Prime Minister betrayed businesses? What I have done is put

0:55:15 > 0:55:18in place the Merlin agreement which led to an increase in bank lending

0:55:18 > 0:55:22last year. What we now have in place is a massive credit easing

0:55:22 > 0:55:25programme that the Chancellor announced in the autumn statement,

0:55:25 > 0:55:29that will kick in this year and make sure the banks are doing what

0:55:29 > 0:55:38banks ought to do in a free enterprise economy and low into

0:55:38 > 0:55:41businesses large and small. -- loan at to businesses.

0:55:41 > 0:55:47I am sure there will be families with children who may have

0:55:47 > 0:55:51difficulties with the new benefit regime. However, would the Prime

0:55:51 > 0:55:57Minister care to comment on the feelings of elderly couples, who

0:55:57 > 0:56:05have spent their entire life working for this country, paid in

0:56:05 > 0:56:11to the state pension system and are now existing on about �7,000 a year,

0:56:11 > 0:56:14rather than �26,000 a year. I think my honourable friend next a

0:56:14 > 0:56:19very good point, and the fact is, if you look at the figures today,

0:56:20 > 0:56:25there are still families in London who are receiving housing benefit

0:56:25 > 0:56:29worth over �50,000 a year. Each one of those families he is taking up

0:56:29 > 0:56:33the hard-earned taxes of many working people, earning far less

0:56:33 > 0:56:37who could not dream of living in houses like those. Point he makes

0:56:37 > 0:56:41are pensioners is right. I'm proud of the fact that this government

0:56:41 > 0:56:45will be increasing the basic state pension from �5 a week, starting in

0:56:45 > 0:56:51April, because we believe in dignity and security for our

0:56:51 > 0:56:54pensioners in old age. What does the Prime Minister make

0:56:54 > 0:56:57of the National Audit Office slating of his flagship work

0:56:57 > 0:57:01programme. They say the government has totally overestimated the

0:57:01 > 0:57:05number of people they will put back to work. This is not a work

0:57:05 > 0:57:09programme as much as a Doesn't Work programme. Instead of just reading

0:57:09 > 0:57:12the press release, he should read the National Audit Office report.

0:57:13 > 0:57:17It praises the government for introducing a scheme in such a

0:57:17 > 0:57:21short period of time. The basic point that the National Audit

0:57:22 > 0:57:26Office is making is the work programme is not put in taxpayers'

0:57:26 > 0:57:30money at risk, it is putting the providers at risk and that is a

0:57:30 > 0:57:33different way of doing things. It is about payment by results,

0:57:33 > 0:57:38getting better performance, value for money, things that his

0:57:38 > 0:57:42government never provided. Like my honourable friends earlier,

0:57:42 > 0:57:46many of my constituents in Dudley South work extremely hard for

0:57:46 > 0:57:50modest salaries. Given that many people think the benefits cut

0:57:50 > 0:57:53should be set at a lower level than �26,000, does my right honourable

0:57:54 > 0:57:58friend agree with me that the party opposite is completely out of touch

0:57:58 > 0:58:01by voting to make it higher? think my honourable friend makes a

0:58:01 > 0:58:05good point will start let me just remind the right honourable

0:58:05 > 0:58:11gentleman what he said at the beginning of this year. This was

0:58:11 > 0:58:16January 2012 on the today programme. I am not against the cap. If he is

0:58:16 > 0:58:20not against the cap, why could he not get his Labour peers to vote

0:58:20 > 0:58:28for the cap in the House of Lords? What is he, weak, incompetent or

0:58:28 > 0:58:31both? On 14th December I asked the Prime

0:58:31 > 0:58:36Minister about cutting benefits for disabled children and he replied

0:58:36 > 0:58:39and I quote: First of all, we are not cutting benefits for disabled

0:58:39 > 0:58:43children. I wonder whether since that time, he has checked his facts,

0:58:43 > 0:58:47and discovered on 12th December, if two days before I asked this

0:58:47 > 0:58:51question, his coalition members in the Lords voted against the

0:58:51 > 0:58:55protection of benefits for disabled children under the new universal

0:58:55 > 0:58:59credit, resulting in a loss of �1,300. I will give the Prime

0:58:59 > 0:59:05Minister another go. How does this fit in with we are all in this

0:59:05 > 0:59:09together? The honourable lady is wrong. Bit

0:59:09 > 0:59:13money that is going into universal credit for the most disabled

0:59:13 > 0:59:16children is not being cut. She is plain wrong about that. He is into

0:59:16 > 0:59:20it interesting that all of the questions we get from all of the

0:59:20 > 0:59:25members opposite are always calling for more spending. They have learnt

0:59:25 > 0:59:29absolutely nothing about the mess they landed this country and.

0:59:29 > 0:59:33British Airways have announced an agreement that they will takeover

0:59:33 > 0:59:36BMI and although this is being challenged under competition rules,

0:59:36 > 0:59:40what assurances can a Prime Minister give that the landing

0:59:40 > 0:59:44slots at Heathrow from regional airports will be protected if this

0:59:44 > 0:59:47is allowed to go ahead? honourable gentleman makes an

0:59:47 > 0:59:51important point which is important to his constituents as well. I will

0:59:51 > 0:59:55look into this issue about landing slots. I know how important this

0:59:55 > 1:00:00issue is for regional airports and I will get back to him.

1:00:00 > 1:00:06Can I ask the Prime Minister why he wants the NHS hospitals to handout

1:00:06 > 1:00:13up to half of their beds to private patients? That is not what the

1:00:14 > 1:00:18reforms do at all. What the reforms do is ensure that you can have some

1:00:18 > 1:00:24private sector and voluntary sector activity going on within the NHS.

1:00:24 > 1:00:28Before they all... Perhaps the Leader of the Opposition should

1:00:28 > 1:00:31quieten down for his second and listen to what his own Health

1:00:31 > 1:00:35Secretary said. His Health Secretary said this: For the

1:00:35 > 1:00:38private sector but its capacity into the NHS for the benefit of NHS

1:00:38 > 1:00:42patients, which I feared most people in this country would

1:00:42 > 1:00:46celebrate. Again, that is what he said in government, but since they

1:00:46 > 1:00:50got into opposition, they have taken up a position of just

1:00:50 > 1:00:54supporting the producer interest, total irresponsibility, total

1:00:54 > 1:00:59short-termism. I stand by what is set in 2007, pity you could not

1:00:59 > 1:01:03stick by it. It is not my obligation to stick by any of these

1:01:03 > 1:01:08matters. Priti Patel. The Prime Minister will be aware of

1:01:08 > 1:01:13the brutal murder last year of my constituent, the Heath, in Germany.

1:01:13 > 1:01:17The murder trial is set to start in March this year. It will last for a

1:01:17 > 1:01:20couple of months. Will the Prime Minister next sure the government

1:01:20 > 1:01:23will do everything possible to support his mother, Mary Heath, to

1:01:23 > 1:01:27deal with the ever-increasing financial costs she faces to see

1:01:27 > 1:01:31justice for her son? Where honourable friend is absolutely

1:01:31 > 1:01:35right to raise this case. First of all, can I offer my sincere

1:01:35 > 1:01:40condolences to Mary Heath and her family following the tragic death

1:01:40 > 1:01:44of her son, Lee, last year. I know this will be a distressing time for

1:01:44 > 1:01:49them as they travel to Germany. A Foreign Office will do all it can

1:01:49 > 1:01:53to support Mary and her family. I have been impressed with what the

1:01:53 > 1:01:59Foreign Office has done in cases like these. I will make sure this

1:01:59 > 1:02:04is carried through. 25 % of our constituents suffer

1:02:04 > 1:02:06from muscular skeletal diseases. The National Audit Office and the

1:02:06 > 1:02:11Public Accounts Committee believe that we could get better outcomes

1:02:11 > 1:02:14for these people at lower costs if a clinical director was appointed

1:02:15 > 1:02:17to co-ordinate things in the National Health Service. Will the

1:02:17 > 1:02:22Prime Minister agreed to see charities representing these people

1:02:22 > 1:02:26with me in the near future? I will certainly look carefully THE

1:02:26 > 1:02:32honourable gentleman necks. One of the points of the NHS reforms that

1:02:32 > 1:02:37is not fully understood his that the idea of having public health

1:02:37 > 1:02:40budgets properly ring-fenced, probably funded with directors of

1:02:40 > 1:02:47public health in each area, which will be able to help with many of

1:02:47 > 1:02:50these areas. My constituents in the King's would

1:02:50 > 1:02:54entirely agree with the government's proposed benefits cap.

1:02:54 > 1:02:58They believe that nobody should earn more in benefits than hard-

1:02:58 > 1:03:02working families. Does the Prime Minister not agree with make that

1:03:02 > 1:03:08it is a damned disgrace that the Labour Party are opposing and

1:03:08 > 1:03:12trying to wreck this important measure? Order. Moderation in the

1:03:12 > 1:03:16use of parliamentary language and indeed, using parliamentary

1:03:17 > 1:03:21language is much to be preferred. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I think my

1:03:21 > 1:03:24honourable friend makes an important point. This is an

1:03:24 > 1:03:27important decision that a house of Commons has got to make. We were

1:03:27 > 1:03:31told that the Labour party would support a cap on benefits, they

1:03:31 > 1:03:34have said that repeatedly and yet when the challenge comes, they duck

1:03:34 > 1:03:39the challenge and refused to support the cap. They will have

1:03:39 > 1:03:45another chance when the legislation comes back to this house. It is no

1:03:45 > 1:03:48good shaking his head. His own peers voted against the cap in the

1:03:48 > 1:03:57Lords. People in this country will not understand why they are taking

1:03:57 > 1:04:02A bit rowdy at the end, as the speaker brings Prime Ministers

1:04:02 > 1:04:05questions to the end. Ed Miliband split his questions into two, first

1:04:05 > 1:04:12on the economy and then to National Health. He stayed away from the

1:04:12 > 1:04:15Kappun housing benefit. Many of you, I think, and it seems to be the

1:04:15 > 1:04:18consensus of commentators, Ed Miliband putting in a stronger

1:04:18 > 1:04:23performance this week than he has in recent weeks, having the Prime

1:04:23 > 1:04:29Minister on the ropes a couple of times. Quaye to a bit of criticism

1:04:29 > 1:04:32for the Government's responses on the economy and on the NHS. But

1:04:32 > 1:04:36there were also responses saying that Ed Miliband's message might be

1:04:36 > 1:04:41right, but there is something wrong with the messenger. John in Leeds

1:04:41 > 1:04:45says, why is it that what Ed Miliband says sounds right but it

1:04:45 > 1:04:50is not yet making any impact? As a Labour Party member, I'm beginning

1:04:50 > 1:04:56to think it is not the substance that is the problem, but the man

1:04:56 > 1:04:59saying it. Colin agrees, it's not that he cannot shoot at the open

1:04:59 > 1:05:03goal in front of him, it's that he cannot reach the target and score

1:05:03 > 1:05:07his political points. When it comes to the economy in general, quite a

1:05:07 > 1:05:10few people that agreed with Richie Hicks. How many more times are we

1:05:10 > 1:05:14going to hear the Prime Minister blame the previous government for

1:05:14 > 1:05:19the country's problems? The excuse is 18 months old and starting to

1:05:19 > 1:05:22win very thin indeed. When it came to the NHS government reforms, if

1:05:22 > 1:05:27David Cameron can only find one GP in Doncaster that supports the

1:05:27 > 1:05:32Health Bill, and we thought that as well, isn't it time he's cracked

1:05:32 > 1:05:35it? Someone should tell him it takes six years to train a GP, and

1:05:35 > 1:05:39all of them started training under Labour. John Wakefield in London,

1:05:39 > 1:05:44if we cannot trust David Cameron and George Osborne with the economy,

1:05:44 > 1:05:50considering they will be borrowing �150 billion more, how can we ever

1:05:50 > 1:05:54trust them with the NHS? Geoff in St Ives, Ed Miliband didn't perform

1:05:54 > 1:06:02as well as he might. Cameron's defence of his NHS policy on the

1:06:02 > 1:06:10basis of what one doctor thinks was called -- quite frankly pathetic.

1:06:10 > 1:06:13Why didn't Ed Miliband go with the quotes from the IMF? It's an

1:06:13 > 1:06:20argument that will play out over the next few days. Christine Lagard

1:06:20 > 1:06:26is in town and we will hear more from her. It is thanks to Nick that

1:06:26 > 1:06:31we have these. I have been reading them. What he says his, if the

1:06:31 > 1:06:36economy is doing worse, let automatic stabilisers work in the

1:06:36 > 1:06:40UK. That is already happening, the increase that you referred to,

1:06:40 > 1:06:45growth slower, welfare payments rise. Then he says, you can go

1:06:45 > 1:06:49further than that, which is what you want to do. If growth is really

1:06:49 > 1:06:55dismal, you may decide that you are going to go a bit more slowly about

1:06:55 > 1:06:58the discretionary part of the Budget, those cuts, and for the UK

1:06:58 > 1:07:01there is some indication that has happened with respect to the

1:07:01 > 1:07:05revision and potential output. That means that the output is not as

1:07:05 > 1:07:09high as they thought it would be. If I was a Labour spin doctor, that

1:07:09 > 1:07:13is very significant ammunition. I would have expected the leader of

1:07:13 > 1:07:17the opposition to use that. Very significant comments. But Nick

1:07:17 > 1:07:22Robinson has only dug them out of the business unit, where the

1:07:22 > 1:07:28transcript is not quite complete. He did not have the transcript.

1:07:28 > 1:07:34are better informed than the leader of the opposition! He has only just

1:07:34 > 1:07:38come in. How did you know? I got the briefing when I came in. It was

1:07:38 > 1:07:45made clear on the Ten O'Clock News last night that the IMF has said

1:07:45 > 1:07:49the exact words that have now been dug out. These are significant

1:07:49 > 1:07:52comments and it reinforces the point we have been making. When the

1:07:52 > 1:07:57economy has begun to plateau and has now gone into reverse, the

1:07:58 > 1:08:01Government has to look at the facts and change course. I suspect we

1:08:01 > 1:08:05have covered these institutions for long enough, the World Bank and the

1:08:05 > 1:08:10IMF, this will now be fudged. Christine Lagard will say something

1:08:10 > 1:08:13which fudges what he has just said. It already has been. The Prime

1:08:13 > 1:08:20Minister quoted another IMF spokesman on Sky News last night,

1:08:20 > 1:08:25who seemed to say the reverse, that you should not do it. Well, what he

1:08:25 > 1:08:29said was that fiscal consolidation is important. Everybody in town

1:08:29 > 1:08:32agrees. The question is the pace. What you have is a significant

1:08:32 > 1:08:38comment from a chief economist saying that you can think about

1:08:38 > 1:08:45being a bit more flexible. He is also a very good Economist.

1:08:45 > 1:08:49hesitate to do a fact guide on the IMF, there are economists, there is

1:08:49 > 1:08:54the chief economist and the more political side. Christine Lagard,

1:08:54 > 1:08:57former French finance minister, I'm not suggesting that she doesn't

1:08:57 > 1:09:00know economics, but her task is to make friends with Treasury

1:09:00 > 1:09:04ministers to get them to do what the IMF wants to do. What I have

1:09:04 > 1:09:08learned over the years, and it is also true of other organisations,

1:09:08 > 1:09:12they did not go to war with ministers. They didn't go to war

1:09:12 > 1:09:14with Gordon Brown and they are not going to war now. You might think

1:09:14 > 1:09:19that puzzling, because their policies are different. They

1:09:19 > 1:09:23generally don't do it. But the words that the chief economist of

1:09:23 > 1:09:27the IMF is saying that there are dangers for Britain in credibility

1:09:27 > 1:09:30in changing approach. But there would be gains. He's very explicit

1:09:30 > 1:09:35that if you went a bit slower in the short term there would be

1:09:35 > 1:09:39growth gains. Two different comments from two different people.

1:09:39 > 1:09:44But we heard earlier from somebody with a clear view on the markets.

1:09:44 > 1:09:47We need to be tremendously careful to be sure that we do not take

1:09:47 > 1:09:49steps that undermine the confidence that currently exists in the

1:09:49 > 1:09:53markets and the business community that are sorting out our problems.

1:09:53 > 1:09:59That is the key point that David Cameron is making. We don't believe

1:09:59 > 1:10:02you saw up -- solve a crisis based on debt by borrowing more. We are

1:10:02 > 1:10:05dealing with difficult circumstances internationally and

1:10:05 > 1:10:08it is of paramount importance that we retain the confidence of the

1:10:08 > 1:10:12markets. If we were to lose that and find ourselves in the position

1:10:12 > 1:10:18of some other European countries, it would be disastrous for of us.

1:10:18 > 1:10:25You may want to carry on on the economy, but I think surprisingly

1:10:25 > 1:10:27it was not the economy that was the main point of Prime Ministers

1:10:27 > 1:10:33questions, it was that the Prime Minister looked extremely

1:10:33 > 1:10:37vulnerable on the NHS. He tried to laugh off the party had lost the

1:10:37 > 1:10:42support of the Royal College of Nurses and of doctors, he said,

1:10:42 > 1:10:46sometimes you need a second opinion. Not many people laughed. You saw

1:10:46 > 1:10:53Labour backbenchers pointing at the backbenchers looking nervous. He

1:10:53 > 1:10:57tried the line about 80 p in Ed Miliband's constituency. He looked

1:10:57 > 1:11:01to me like he was going to go back to the office and say, we had a

1:11:01 > 1:11:05problem. He's lost the Select Committee, he's lost the

1:11:05 > 1:11:09representatives of the professions, but he is committed to plough one.

1:11:09 > 1:11:14Part of the problem of the backbenches is that a lot of them

1:11:14 > 1:11:19have never quite signed up to it. Or they didn't realise they had

1:11:19 > 1:11:23signed up to these reforms. They certainly didn't. It's not the

1:11:23 > 1:11:27manifesto they campaigned on. Roughly the point I was trying to

1:11:27 > 1:11:32make. We sit in the studios and pink, what a great advantage that

1:11:32 > 1:11:37members of parliaments have, they have constituents, they look at

1:11:37 > 1:11:41their own local hospitals and people say, it is quite difficult.

1:11:41 > 1:11:44Or rather stronger language. get the impression from some

1:11:44 > 1:11:47Conservatives that they wish they had never gone down this road in

1:11:47 > 1:11:50the first place. Chris Grayling, I have got to the bottom of why you

1:11:50 > 1:11:54could not tell me how much money had been guaranteed under the

1:11:54 > 1:11:57National Loan guarantee Scheme for businesses. Shall I tell you why?

1:11:57 > 1:12:01Well, probably because it was launched a month ago. It hasn't

1:12:01 > 1:12:07even started yet. It was only announced in the Autumn Statement.

1:12:07 > 1:12:09I've also got to the bottom of why we do not know how much money the

1:12:09 > 1:12:13Business Finance Partnership has doled out so much -- so far. That

1:12:13 > 1:12:16doesn't started either. I don't think you mentioned the business

1:12:16 > 1:12:22finance partnership. I mentioned one of the others. Don't you think

1:12:22 > 1:12:26you need to get a wiggle on? Unemployment is rising. You need to

1:12:26 > 1:12:29get moving. Some practical examples of what we're doing, the new

1:12:29 > 1:12:32Enterprise Allowance is helping thousands of people move into self-

1:12:32 > 1:12:36employment around the country. What we're doing in enterprise zones is

1:12:36 > 1:12:41effectively giving a tax incentive to people setting up new businesses.

1:12:41 > 1:12:44We are moving ahead as fast as we can. The tax changes I mention to

1:12:44 > 1:12:46the corporation tax system that gives an incentive to people to

1:12:46 > 1:12:52invest in intellectual property in the UK, there has been up and

1:12:52 > 1:12:57running for months. Are you going to begin next mayor of Birmingham?

1:12:57 > 1:13:01He laughs, nervously! I was expecting a different question, but

1:13:01 > 1:13:07you may have noticed I have my hands rather full with making sure

1:13:07 > 1:13:12that Chris Grayling and Iain Duncan-Smith... Well, Birmingham

1:13:12 > 1:13:16was the first to vote. It looks like they will vote for directly-

1:13:16 > 1:13:25elected mayors. You are in favour. But you will not run yourself?

1:13:25 > 1:13:29have not given it a thought. A Yes, you have! You may have noticed that

1:13:29 > 1:13:33welfare is quite a busy brief at the moment. I am in favour of a

1:13:33 > 1:13:39mayor in Birmingham. I do think it is time that people in Birmingham

1:13:39 > 1:13:43took control of the City's destiny. Too much power is in the hands of

1:13:43 > 1:13:47the Conservatives and the Lib Dems. I will campaign for a "yes" vote.

1:13:47 > 1:13:54Avid viewers of the Daily Politics will not need reminding that the

1:13:54 > 1:13:59notion of Boris Johnson being mayor of London was broken on this

1:13:59 > 1:14:09programme by me. The reason was because I didn't take the idea very

1:14:09 > 1:14:13

1:14:13 > 1:14:23seriously. It all came true. And It is like the mayor of Chicago,

1:14:23 > 1:14:23

1:14:23 > 1:14:31mayor earn. I think we will take If I need advice, I will come to

1:14:31 > 1:14:35you. My invoice will follow! Now, now that we have planned Liam

1:14:35 > 1:14:38Byrne's a future career, in 2010 David Cameron said lobbying was the

1:14:38 > 1:14:41next big scandal waiting to happen in Westminster. Last week, the

1:14:41 > 1:14:44Government published its long awaited plans for a statutory

1:14:44 > 1:14:48register of lobbyists. But will it achieve anything and is there

1:14:48 > 1:14:58anything wrong with lobbying? Mark Adams says it is a crucial part of

1:14:58 > 1:15:09

1:15:09 > 1:15:12My name is Mark and I am a lobbyist. Actually, there is no such

1:15:12 > 1:15:16organisation as a lobbyist anonymous. We do not need to be

1:15:16 > 1:15:21ashamed of what we do. Lobbyists pay an important part in the

1:15:21 > 1:15:26democratic process and we should be proud of it -- lobbyists play an

1:15:26 > 1:15:30important part. In reality, my job is quite simple. I advise clients

1:15:30 > 1:15:35on how to make their case most effectively to government. I

1:15:35 > 1:15:44explain to them how they can exercise their democratic right to

1:15:44 > 1:15:48try and influence policy decisions. There are many misconceptions about

1:15:48 > 1:15:55lobbying. I rarely meet ministers or Members of Parliament on behalf

1:15:55 > 1:15:59of clients. And I never hang around in the shadows here at the House of

1:15:59 > 1:16:04Commons. Lobbying is a fundamental democratic right, laid down in the

1:16:04 > 1:16:10Magna Carter. Imagine a world in which governments take decisions in

1:16:10 > 1:16:13locked rooms in Whitehall, refusing to hear from outside lobbying

1:16:13 > 1:16:18interests. It is essential here that governments here from those

1:16:18 > 1:16:23affected by its policies and laws. However, there is legitimate public

1:16:23 > 1:16:27concern that lobbyists can, in some circumstances, undermine the

1:16:27 > 1:16:33democratic process. That is why I believe we need effective

1:16:33 > 1:16:39regulation of the lobbying profession. Like the majority of

1:16:39 > 1:16:44other lobbyists, I signed up to our profession's code of conduct, with

1:16:44 > 1:16:48strict rules of behaviour and a publicly available Register of my

1:16:48 > 1:16:53clients. No system of regulation is perfect, but I see no reason why

1:16:53 > 1:16:58statutory regulation would be any more effective. If politicians are

1:16:58 > 1:17:03to be called to account by those they serve, it is an important that

1:17:03 > 1:17:13we have effective lobbying. The very suspicious when politicians

1:17:13 > 1:17:13

1:17:13 > 1:17:16tried to regulate and limit it. And Mark Adams joins us now. You

1:17:16 > 1:17:20made a strong case there for the importance of lobbying and

1:17:20 > 1:17:25lobbyists, and the democratic right to influence policy decisions, but

1:17:25 > 1:17:29that is where people are suspicious. What is involved in that

1:17:29 > 1:17:32influencing of policy and decisions, where does it cross the line?

1:17:32 > 1:17:36think I made it clear in the film but actually, what we do is we

1:17:36 > 1:17:40advise clients on how to make their case must effectively to

1:17:40 > 1:17:45politicians, civil servants and the like. I think we have to have some

1:17:45 > 1:17:48faith in our politicians in this. Clearly, we present our case from

1:17:48 > 1:17:51the side of our clients. They will here other cases from other sides

1:17:51 > 1:17:56of the argument and they should make up their own decisions. If

1:17:56 > 1:18:00people think they are swayed by a long lunch on a day at the races, I

1:18:00 > 1:18:04don't think we have enough faith in these guys to do their job. That is

1:18:04 > 1:18:08where I think, there are people out there, also politicians, David

1:18:08 > 1:18:13Cameron has talked about this being the latest scandal to happen, that

1:18:13 > 1:18:17days at the races and lunches, is that being seen as buying? But they

1:18:17 > 1:18:21declare that. The Prime Minister is right. I suspect he is not quite

1:18:21 > 1:18:26right in saying it has only happened, it happened towards the

1:18:26 > 1:18:30end of the last Labour government. Some of us were in discussions with

1:18:30 > 1:18:33previous governments about register of meetings. I think it is right

1:18:33 > 1:18:36that politicians and senior civil servants have to declare the

1:18:36 > 1:18:40hospitality they receive. That is the way it should be regulating

1:18:40 > 1:18:45this with an openness on the part of politicians and frankly trusting

1:18:45 > 1:18:50them. Well, trust in politicians is something which has been slightly

1:18:50 > 1:18:57diminished by the public's perspective, mainly as a result of

1:18:57 > 1:19:00the expenses. How often do meet lobbyists, Liam Byrne? I'd rarely

1:19:00 > 1:19:04meet them. I have worked in business in most of my career and I

1:19:04 > 1:19:08have often felt that business should be more confident in ring up

1:19:08 > 1:19:11politicians and making the points. We do think the government should

1:19:11 > 1:19:17get a move on and introduce a register which was talked about.

1:19:17 > 1:19:21This is the register of people saying they are a lobbyist?

1:19:21 > 1:19:25point is that we want to increase the level of trust in politics and

1:19:25 > 1:19:30we think that where there are confidence building measures like

1:19:30 > 1:19:35this, do not hang around. Do you agree with David Cameron Crowe's

1:19:36 > 1:19:42but would it be the next scandal to happen? It could be and we are

1:19:42 > 1:19:48trying to make sure it would not be. Mark Adams also in a register would

1:19:48 > 1:19:52just be a list of names, it is like an encyclopaedia, isn't it? What it

1:19:52 > 1:19:55would be is that people who are around Westminster are there and

1:19:55 > 1:19:59transparent. If they are recommending -- representing

1:19:59 > 1:20:03clients, we know they do it. There is a register but there are people

1:20:03 > 1:20:08who operate outside it. I think the bigger reform there we have done

1:20:09 > 1:20:13already is to publish in detail a list of ministers' meetings. I

1:20:13 > 1:20:19remember in opposition try and get access to ministers' diaries and

1:20:19 > 1:20:23the wall shut down. It was the way it operated. In it is still quite

1:20:23 > 1:20:29hard because I have tried to get your diary and it is still hard.

1:20:29 > 1:20:33Send it to Liam Byrne afterwards! Can live very briefly ask Liam

1:20:33 > 1:20:39Byrne, unions, should they be included? I have a lovely quote

1:20:39 > 1:20:45from Bob Crow he says the idea that trade unions should be bracketed in

1:20:45 > 1:20:50with the chances and schmooze us from the lobbying world is a great

1:20:50 > 1:20:53insult. I don't think Labour's links with the trade unions are

1:20:53 > 1:20:58secret because we debated in public and people know who is affiliated

1:20:59 > 1:21:02and who is not. I do not think the unions should be different from any

1:21:02 > 1:21:06other organisation. I do not think they can claim somehow that they

1:21:06 > 1:21:10are different. Union links are transparent already but lobbyist

1:21:10 > 1:21:14links are not. It is about bringing complete openness to the picture.

1:21:15 > 1:21:17Thank you. Following his bout at Prime

1:21:17 > 1:21:22Minister's Questions, the Prime Minister is jetting off this

1:21:22 > 1:21:30Rosberg, preparing another battle about reforming the European Court

1:21:30 > 1:21:36of Human Rights -- Strasbourg. Joining us from Central Lobby, the

1:21:36 > 1:21:46human rights lawyer Anthony Lester and the Conservative MP Andrea

1:21:46 > 1:21:52Leadsom. This court has a backlog of about 160,000 cases, some of the

1:21:52 > 1:21:59judges had either no or very little previous judicial experience, it is

1:21:59 > 1:22:03in need of reform, is it not? So what should be done? First of

1:22:03 > 1:22:08all, as far as the judges are concerned, there needs to be much

1:22:08 > 1:22:14more transparent rules about who can be a judge, much better

1:22:14 > 1:22:17scrutiny, much better public scrutiny, in order to improve

1:22:17 > 1:22:21quality all round. The British model is the best one where we

1:22:21 > 1:22:25advertised, we then have an independent body looking and we

1:22:25 > 1:22:31then make recommendations. As far as the backlog is concerned, much

1:22:31 > 1:22:38of that, about a third, is caused by countries like Russia, the

1:22:38 > 1:22:41Ukraine, Turkey which do not show a proper respect for the rule if the

1:22:41 > 1:22:45law. Some of this is caused by countries like Italy which have

1:22:45 > 1:22:51repetitive cases and do not bring themselves into line probably.

1:22:51 > 1:22:55There is an urgent need which is recognised, I think, by a British

1:22:55 > 1:23:00judge for ways of tackling this. They have said they will get the

1:23:00 > 1:23:04backlog down within five years. I am on the commission on a Bill of

1:23:04 > 1:23:09Rights for the UK. We have made recommendations supporting David

1:23:09 > 1:23:14Cameron's proposals. So, Andrea Leadsom, if we get changes along

1:23:14 > 1:23:18these lines, will that do it? could do. Certainly, improvements

1:23:18 > 1:23:23and reform is what David Cameron will be talking about today. What

1:23:23 > 1:23:27we have to do is get a point where we do not have a backlog of 150,000

1:23:27 > 1:23:32plus cases. I get letters from constituents all the time saying

1:23:32 > 1:23:37they have an appeal at the human court and it will be a month before

1:23:37 > 1:23:41it is even considered. It is not fit for purpose so it has to change.

1:23:41 > 1:23:45What the Prime Minister also wants is that where the British courts,

1:23:45 > 1:23:50up to the Supreme Court, have taken a clear decision on a particular

1:23:50 > 1:23:57matter within their competence, that more times than not, European

1:23:57 > 1:24:01courts should leave there, not get involved? What do you say to that?

1:24:01 > 1:24:06I think that is a very difficult idea. It might work in the United

1:24:06 > 1:24:10Kingdom because we have a really good judicial system. By and large

1:24:10 > 1:24:14our judges produced results which are entirely compatible with the

1:24:14 > 1:24:18convention. But if you're going to turn the Strasbourg court into a

1:24:18 > 1:24:22court which starts criticising other country's judges for being

1:24:22 > 1:24:26unreasonable, but is not a good way of getting a partnership between

1:24:26 > 1:24:31Strasbourg and those countries. I worried that in other parts of

1:24:31 > 1:24:35Europe, there are 46 countries and 800 million people, it is important

1:24:35 > 1:24:38that you are entitled way your domestic remedies have failed,

1:24:38 > 1:24:44still to go to Strasbourg. The key thing is to get good quality judges,

1:24:44 > 1:24:53get rid of the backlog and their ISA finally, the other thing is,

1:24:53 > 1:24:59this whole system was started by Sir Winston Churchill and the

1:24:59 > 1:25:04Conservative Party. There commitment is tested. Andrea, had

1:25:04 > 1:25:07to put the chances of reform? would put them pretty high. I think

1:25:07 > 1:25:11all countries see the need for reform, it is a question of what

1:25:11 > 1:25:17and how far. Some countries have a good track of human rights records

1:25:17 > 1:25:20but other countries do not. You cannot use this for everyone else's

1:25:20 > 1:25:26national failures. The One o'clock News is desperate for your camera

1:25:26 > 1:25:30so we have to leave there. We can go to James Landale who is in

1:25:30 > 1:25:36Strasbourg where he has the camera all to himself. We have a rough

1:25:36 > 1:25:39idea what David Cameron is going to ask for, but other British going

1:25:39 > 1:25:44there with hopes of success or simply to lay out their stall?

1:25:44 > 1:25:48I think they are coming here with some hope of success. That is why

1:25:48 > 1:25:52the tone of the Prime Minister's speech will be quite moderate. It

1:25:52 > 1:25:57is not designed to appeal to newspapers like the Daily Mail. It

1:25:57 > 1:26:01is designed to win allies in that building. The Prime Minister sees

1:26:01 > 1:26:06there is an opportunity for reform. The problem is this will take a

1:26:07 > 1:26:10long time. Britain has the rotating presidency for just a few more

1:26:10 > 1:26:15months. Then the Albanians take over. Any reform of this place

1:26:16 > 1:26:25takes a long time. What Parliament Ferring say there should be

1:26:26 > 1:26:27

1:26:27 > 1:26:32reformed but no one has said how. The Prime Minister has not said

1:26:32 > 1:26:36about how he will get rid of the backlog. I think we have still got

1:26:36 > 1:26:42a long way to go on this. There is a problem here, there are 47

1:26:42 > 1:26:45members of this court, they will need to agree to any changes, and

1:26:45 > 1:26:49we have had the President of the court he was a British judge saying

1:26:49 > 1:26:56he thinks the court is doing pretty well and does not need any reform

1:26:56 > 1:27:01at all? Yes, there is a huge institutional reluctance I think,

1:27:01 > 1:27:05to move swiftly on this. There is, however, some consensus that some

1:27:05 > 1:27:10reform needs to happen. The most persuasive argument the Prime

1:27:10 > 1:27:17Minister has got, is saying if the court does not reform, he will

1:27:17 > 1:27:21undermine support for human rights for places where there are genuine

1:27:21 > 1:27:24problems. This is the start of a long process and I think it is very

1:27:24 > 1:27:30unlikely to satisfy all the critics back home who say it is not about

1:27:30 > 1:27:34reform, it is about ultimately withdrawal. Should the court here

1:27:34 > 1:27:39really decide on things like giving prisoners the vote in the United

1:27:39 > 1:27:46Kingdom. Thank you. The Prime Minister is on his way to

1:27:46 > 1:27:50Strasbourg. There will be an hour- long documentary on Human Rights on

1:27:50 > 1:27:54BBC2, probably before the end of February since it is pretty topical

1:27:54 > 1:27:59and we had better get a move on. I had better write most of the

1:27:59 > 1:28:09script! Time to put you out of your misery with Guess the Year. The

1:28:09 > 1:28:14answer was 2006. You get to choose a winner. You dig deep. It is Brian

1:28:14 > 1:28:20Sylvester from Nantwich in Cheshire. Well done, Brian. The special mug

1:28:20 > 1:28:23is yours. That is it for today. We thank all of our guests. Special

1:28:24 > 1:28:28thanks to Chris Grayling and Liam Byrne for being our guests of the

1:28:28 > 1:28:32day. We will be back tomorrow at noon. We are an hour-long Daily

1:28:32 > 1:28:38Politics on every day except Wednesday when we are 90 minutes.