:00:43. > :00:47.Welcome to the Daily Politics. 60 minutes of public service
:00:47. > :00:51.broadcasting at its finest. That is what it says here! The Deputy Prime
:00:51. > :00:54.Minister bids to get low earners out of paying tax more quickly.
:00:54. > :00:58.Will he get his way with the Treasury?
:00:58. > :01:02.They have gone to the Swiss Alps to get a better view of the euro-zone
:01:02. > :01:08.crisis, but do the politicians and businessmen gathering in Davos like
:01:08. > :01:14.what they are seeing that? The Lords inflict a 6th defeat on
:01:14. > :01:18.the government on welfare reform. We must now stand together and
:01:18. > :01:22.fight for the things in which we all believe. They are more
:01:22. > :01:32.important than any of us individually.
:01:32. > :01:35.
:01:35. > :01:41.And how accents can help or hinder All that in 60 minutes. A veritable
:01:41. > :01:45.festival of politics here on BBC2. With us for the duration, a
:01:45. > :01:51.familiar face, Joan Bakewell, now a Labour peer in the Lords. Welcome
:01:51. > :01:56.back. First, the government's packs plant
:01:56. > :02:01.a bomb be laid out by the Chancellor. So you stick -- sit
:02:01. > :02:05.down with a stiff drink me prepare yourself for the bad news, so
:02:05. > :02:12.imagine a surprise when you turn on your telly to hear the Deputy Prime
:02:12. > :02:14.Minister talking about speeding up the tax increase threshold. I want
:02:14. > :02:19.the commission to go further and faster in delivering the full
:02:19. > :02:23.�10,000, because bluntly, the pressure on family finances is
:02:23. > :02:28.reaching boiling point. Compared to those at the top, these families
:02:28. > :02:34.have seen their earnings in decline for a decade. That has got worse
:02:34. > :02:38.since 2008, with lower real wages and fewer hours at work. I am
:02:38. > :02:42.joined now by our political correspondent. It is unusual to
:02:42. > :02:47.hear tax plans being announced so close to the Budget. Presumably he
:02:47. > :02:52.had clearance, and it sounds as if it is going to happen? He told me
:02:52. > :02:56.this morning that he spoke to George Osborne and the Prime
:02:56. > :03:04.Minister about it, I don't think they sat down and signed off on the
:03:04. > :03:09.proposals, but clearly they knew what was coming. It is very unusual.
:03:09. > :03:13.It is just six weeks before the Budget. But this is a very
:03:13. > :03:17.important issue for Nick Clegg, there is an element of Economics
:03:17. > :03:21.here, it is being proposed as a way of kick-starting part of the
:03:21. > :03:25.economy, by getting more money into the pockets of low earners, because
:03:25. > :03:32.people believe they will spend more quickly, but what is more
:03:32. > :03:38.significant is this is about distinction - Liberal Democrats
:03:38. > :03:42.decoupling, if you will. It is an idea which is very important in
:03:42. > :03:46.terms of fairness. So this is a Lib Dem priority, not necessarily
:03:46. > :03:53.government policy, although I know they were committed to doing it by
:03:53. > :03:58.2015. Have they costed it? It sounds like a stimulus to me.
:03:58. > :04:00.a coalition policy, it says in black and white, and their first
:04:00. > :04:05.priority when it comes to tax is increasing the personal tax
:04:05. > :04:10.threshold. What Nick Clegg wants today is for it to go further and
:04:10. > :04:14.to go faster. He wants it to happen before that commitment of 2015 in
:04:14. > :04:20.Parliament. I think the rout will be about Howard will be funded, and
:04:20. > :04:23.the pressure is on Nick Clegg to come forward with some specific
:04:23. > :04:29.proposals he thinks George Osborne can accept. He talked about tax
:04:29. > :04:33.loopholes. He talked about stamp duty, pension relief, pension
:04:33. > :04:37.allowance as well, and then mentioned tax, which is least
:04:37. > :04:41.palatable for the Chancellor. He did also mention other ways of
:04:41. > :04:45.tinkering around to get this figure of about 9 billion, which is the
:04:45. > :04:53.cost, which seemed a far more palatable to the Chancellor if he
:04:53. > :04:59.were to agree with this. Thank you. Let's look at the substance of the
:04:59. > :05:05.proposal. If you have got 9 billion in spare cash to spend, is taking
:05:05. > :05:09.low earners out of tax the best way of helping the working poor?
:05:09. > :05:13.must -- he must be the last person to notice that the poor are hurting
:05:13. > :05:20.the most from the government policy. It is a policy that hasn't yielded
:05:20. > :05:24.croaked. One of the weight of yielding growth is to get people
:05:24. > :05:29.spending money. There should be a revision of the 80, that is what
:05:29. > :05:39.you need, people who need to spend can you need to give them the money,
:05:39. > :05:41.
:05:41. > :05:49.it is obvious daughter of --. Was so you have to get done spending?
:05:49. > :05:52.People are her to get all sorts of ways, low-paid families, -- hurting.
:05:52. > :05:56.There are schemes that are being squeezed and all sorts of benefits
:05:56. > :06:01.systems that are squeezing poor families. He is quite right, they
:06:01. > :06:06.need help. But if the aim is to help poor families, if you're not
:06:06. > :06:13.in a job at all and you are poor, then this doesn't help you, because
:06:13. > :06:16.you are not paying tax. And note most of the 9 billion will go to
:06:16. > :06:25.middle income, that may be good or bad come but it is not targeted at
:06:25. > :06:28.the ball. It will include the lower earners, it doesn't take Marks --
:06:28. > :06:33.take much, and that is where the expansion needs to happen in the
:06:33. > :06:36.economy. Most of that 9 billion will not go to the poor. It won't,
:06:36. > :06:41.but it will go to the people feeling the squeeze, not just be
:06:41. > :06:48.destitute are feeling the squeeze debate is the squeezed middle.
:06:48. > :06:53.would be different. What is the lower squeeze? People who were on
:06:53. > :06:59.20,000 a year. They would benefit from this. That may be the plan,
:06:59. > :07:01.actually. Given it under the guise of helping the very poor. Later we
:07:01. > :07:06.will discuss whether taxpayers should be told more about where
:07:06. > :07:16.their money is going. In case you thought the Pensthorpe Nature
:07:16. > :07:17.
:07:17. > :07:20.Reserve as it -- the eurozone crisis had gone away, it hasn't.
:07:21. > :07:25.Leaders have gone to the World Economic Forum. The crisis is still
:07:25. > :07:30.top of the agenda. Earlier this week the IMF said that the global
:07:30. > :07:37.economy was now deeply into the danger zone as a result of risks
:07:37. > :07:42.from the euro-zone. So how are our leaders going to get their act
:07:42. > :07:45.together? Are they just going to ski, eat and drink? I am not sure
:07:45. > :07:49.about the former! The International Monetary Fund forecasts that the
:07:50. > :07:55.euro area will slip into recession this year. Estimates that GDP in
:07:55. > :07:59.the euro-zone will shrink by 0.5%. The IMF also wants a radical shift
:08:00. > :08:04.in policy to save the era. It is urging leaders to consider a
:08:04. > :08:07.doubling or tripling of the bail- out fund, and fought EU
:08:07. > :08:11.institutions and governments to share the burden of debt relief for
:08:11. > :08:15.Greece. This is opposed by Angela Merkel, who has raised fresh doubts
:08:15. > :08:20.about the ability to save Greece from a default, calling the country
:08:20. > :08:24.a special case. Talks are resuming between the Greek government and
:08:24. > :08:31.the banks over a write-down of its debt pile. Banks have said they are
:08:31. > :08:34.willing to take a 50% cut, but Greece is looking for more. Angela
:08:34. > :08:40.Merkel thinks it will be solved by matching austerity to the ways
:08:40. > :08:44.Europe is Govan, guaranteeing close fiscal union, but legendary
:08:44. > :08:50.investor George Soros has sounded a warning. The austerity Jenny wants
:08:50. > :08:54.to impose will push Europe into a deflationary debt spiral. --
:08:54. > :09:00.Germany wants to impose. David Cameron says Europe needs to slash
:09:00. > :09:05.red tape in order to promote growth. Our single-market remains
:09:05. > :09:09.incomplete, and there are still a colossal 4700 professions across
:09:09. > :09:13.the European Union to which access is regulated by government. And
:09:14. > :09:18.that is not all. In spite of the economic challenge, in spite of the
:09:18. > :09:24.unemployment challenge, we are still doing things through the EU
:09:24. > :09:28.to make life even harder. In the name of social protection, the EU
:09:28. > :09:34.has promoted Mehmet -- measures that impose burdens on businesses
:09:34. > :09:39.and can destroy each jobs. The pregnant workers' directive, the
:09:39. > :09:45.working time directive, the list goes on. That was the Prime
:09:45. > :09:49.Minister speaking at Davos and now I go. We are joined now by the
:09:49. > :09:54.Conservative MP John Redwood and from Brussels, Liberal Democrat MEP
:09:54. > :09:59.Sharon Bowles. She has just been reappointed, some said she wouldn't
:09:59. > :10:08.be because she is British, but it is proud for the nation that she
:10:08. > :10:16.has been reappointed. She is chairman of the Economic and
:10:16. > :10:21.Monetary Affairs Committee. Is it still in Britain's interest to
:10:21. > :10:28.support the efforts of Germany and France to save the euro-zone as
:10:28. > :10:34.currently constituted? I think it is in British interests to do as
:10:34. > :10:41.much as we can to assist in rescuing, and to participate as
:10:41. > :10:47.much as we can in the plans, and to contribute our expertise to make is
:10:47. > :10:51.not just about money. It is also about the steps to take. The
:10:51. > :10:55.problem isn't going to go away, it keeps on getting more serious, and
:10:55. > :11:01.we are affected by it. So the more we are in the room in discussions,
:11:01. > :11:07.the better that is for the UK. understand that is your line, but I
:11:07. > :11:13.am asking whether it is right that British policy should be to support
:11:13. > :11:18.keeping the euro-zone as currently constituted, with its 17 members,
:11:18. > :11:24.intact. Is that the proper course of British policy? I am not sure
:11:24. > :11:27.that is going to help anybody if the UK had a policy that says, then
:11:27. > :11:35.it should be a fragmentation of the euro-zone. I think hanging together
:11:35. > :11:39.is probably an important thing to do. So your answer is yes? I think
:11:39. > :11:44.yes, the issue of whether or not we should face up to the size of the
:11:44. > :11:51.Greek debt and the fact it is going to be difficult to get it so that
:11:51. > :11:55.by 2020 it is down to 120%, which is what lies behind the haircut of
:11:55. > :11:59.the Bond holders and so on, I think to have some straight talking about
:11:59. > :12:03.the possibilities and impossibilities... I am going to
:12:03. > :12:08.come on to Greece as a specific case, I it and just looking at the
:12:08. > :12:11.eurozone as a whole at the moment. Is the policy not to be ticket
:12:11. > :12:16.eurozone intact, because if it does begin to split up or free at the
:12:16. > :12:21.edges, it will throw Europe into the deep recession which will drag
:12:21. > :12:25.us down? I don't agree with that at all. The only way forward for the
:12:25. > :12:30.euro-zone is to be realistic and to lose two or three countries and try
:12:30. > :12:33.and stabilised the rest. I think in public, at the British government
:12:33. > :12:37.shouldn't say anything at all, they shouldn't say anything that could
:12:37. > :12:43.be construed as damaging or difficult, so the safest thing is
:12:43. > :12:46.to say nothing. In private, they should be giving straight, honest
:12:46. > :12:50.advice, and the honest financial and economic advice you have to
:12:50. > :12:54.give is that the scheme is now doing enormous destruction to jobs
:12:54. > :12:57.and the social fabric and the economic life of several states
:12:58. > :13:02.within the euro-zone, the sooner they are allowed out, the better,
:13:02. > :13:09.we can get on with adjusting and we can start to rescue the wider
:13:09. > :13:13.European economy. Our policy should be to shut up? Publicly. That is
:13:13. > :13:18.what Nicolas Sarkozy told us to do, I'm glad you're align itself with
:13:18. > :13:22.the outgoing French President! are deliberately missed a string
:13:22. > :13:26.what I said. I was saying that we should say anything in public that
:13:26. > :13:31.could be construed as unhelpful, but in private, we should not shut
:13:31. > :13:37.up, we are a full member of the wider EU. We should say this is not
:13:37. > :13:40.working, there is now Meechan the distraught -- mutually assured
:13:40. > :13:45.austerity, a circle which has been created, and it needs to be broken.
:13:45. > :13:51.If they allowed Greece and Portugal out, it would start be process of
:13:51. > :13:58.recovery. Sharon Bowles, is it inevitable that Greece will
:13:58. > :14:03.default? Angela Merkel hinted at that? I think unless we pull
:14:03. > :14:08.something out of the bag now, it is looking that way. There are few
:14:08. > :14:11.other things we can try first, for example getting the ECB to
:14:12. > :14:17.participate in their hair cut on the bonds, because it bought the
:14:17. > :14:21.bonds at less than full value, so the notional profit it has got and
:14:21. > :14:27.it could be put into the pot. might be illegal under the
:14:27. > :14:33.Maastricht treaty. They're not meant to be bailing out European
:14:33. > :14:37.governments. The profit element, there is 30% to spare, I am not
:14:38. > :14:43.sure that would make it illegal. And there are possibilities, the
:14:43. > :14:50.question is again with it is big enough to get down to something
:14:50. > :14:55.that is sustainable. We have got it a little bit in the UK as well,
:14:55. > :14:59.because of all the austerity that is around, it does feed off one
:14:59. > :15:09.another in adjacent countries. It depresses growth, and we cannot
:15:09. > :15:11.
:15:11. > :15:16.actually get out of the problems we Let me bring John Redwood back in.
:15:16. > :15:21.Should Britain be giving more money to the IMF, which looks like it
:15:21. > :15:28.will be coming for a cash call to its members, a lot of which it
:15:28. > :15:32.wants to use to help the EC and the euro this -- ECB and the European
:15:32. > :15:42.Union burlap eurozone? He should make this has the option available
:15:42. > :15:46.for as normal purposes. -- it should make this subscription. You
:15:46. > :15:49.can't have appropriate monetary action, so we should say to the IMF,
:15:49. > :15:56.do not waste your money on this, and I agree with good Osborne when
:15:56. > :16:04.he says we should not be bailing out currencies. -- George Osborne.
:16:04. > :16:08.Greece is to the euro area as California is to America. Should we
:16:08. > :16:14.pony up our share if it comes knocking on our door?
:16:14. > :16:18.I think I half agree with what is being said. We should be looking at
:16:18. > :16:23.trying to assist countries and we should be trying to make sure we do
:16:23. > :16:29.contribute to the IMF for its programmes and, without earmarking.
:16:30. > :16:34.I don't think that is the idea, and you should not contribute to
:16:34. > :16:39.something earmark. Everybody has to get realistic about what is
:16:39. > :16:44.possible and impossible. And how far will Germany go, we cannot
:16:44. > :16:48.carry on as we are at the moment. If we drip-feed money in it becomes
:16:48. > :16:52.many wasted. Should a money be going in or shouldn't it be a pity
:16:52. > :16:59.that the dock if the Germans will not dig into their deeper pockets,
:16:59. > :17:03.why should we? We have to look at how it is done,
:17:03. > :17:08.whether it is the most effective way and gives us something big
:17:08. > :17:12.enough to effect the proper rescue. If it is another bit of drip-
:17:13. > :17:20.feeding, I think we have a right to to voice if we feel we are cynical
:17:20. > :17:24.about it. That is where it is important we are in the room.
:17:24. > :17:28.If even Sharon Bowles and Angola Meckel, probably the two most
:17:28. > :17:33.powerful woman in Europe, -- Angela Merkel, are saying Greece could
:17:33. > :17:37.default, it seems that will happen. I agree, it seems it will. I agree
:17:37. > :17:43.with John Redwood. We should just stay silent on the international
:17:43. > :17:48.picture. I don't think David Cameron is highly regarded in
:17:48. > :17:52.Europe. After his rather dramatic walkout which played well with his
:17:52. > :17:57.backbenchers, which went down very badly in Europe, also he belongs to
:17:57. > :18:03.a strange group within Europe that is far right of the central group
:18:03. > :18:09.so he doesn't hold any authority there.
:18:09. > :18:14.At least he is there this year, Nicolas Sarkozy might not be.
:18:14. > :18:18.have considerable influence and authority if we wish to use it. We
:18:18. > :18:21.must use it for sensible economic policies. Europe is locked into a
:18:21. > :18:27.dreadful deflation. The crisis has only been going on
:18:27. > :18:31.for three years. I'm sure we will be back.
:18:31. > :18:34.Last night the House of Lords inflicted another defeat on the
:18:34. > :18:40.Government's welfare reforms. This time there was a proposal to charge
:18:40. > :18:43.estranged parents �100 to use the services of the Child Support
:18:43. > :18:50.Agency to settled out maintenance disputes. The government was
:18:50. > :18:56.defeated by 270, to 278, the biggest rebellion by far. Among the
:18:56. > :19:02.rebels with 34 Conservative Peers. Lord Lawson, thank you for joining
:19:02. > :19:06.us. Why did you rebel? This was an issue on a bill which
:19:06. > :19:10.as a whole I strongly support, and I strongly support the benefit cat
:19:11. > :19:14.which the great majority of the British people do, but this was a
:19:14. > :19:18.particular provision where people had -- where the government had
:19:19. > :19:22.clearly got it wrong. James McKay, a man of great calibre, who work
:19:22. > :19:26.worked with closely in government, he was Lord Chancellor and there
:19:26. > :19:29.was Chancellor of the Exchequer, he sought to put it right and I
:19:29. > :19:33.supported him as a number of others did.
:19:33. > :19:37.What about the argument the Lords is now, particularly on welfare
:19:37. > :19:42.reforms, overstepping his role. As you said yourself there is huge
:19:42. > :19:45.public support for the welfare bill and the welfare reforms. Do you
:19:45. > :19:49.really have a right to vote down a part of key government proposals
:19:49. > :19:53.even if you said it is wrong, is this what the Lords should be
:19:53. > :19:59.doing? Absolutely. We have a duty as a
:19:59. > :20:04.revising chamber and that is what we are doing. On the welfare cap,
:20:04. > :20:10.the benefit cap, there was one defeat for the government, which I
:20:10. > :20:15.supported the government and the government are absolutely right,
:20:15. > :20:18.crazy Lib Dem rebellion. What about the aspects that have
:20:18. > :20:23.been voted down, is there a risk that the Government's welfare bill
:20:23. > :20:27.is actually doing some damage to the modernising image, there will
:20:27. > :20:34.be part of the population that you them as too cruel?
:20:34. > :20:40.I don't think we wanted about image and all that sort of thing. What is
:20:40. > :20:45.important is to get the policy right, get the legislation right,
:20:45. > :20:49.avoid it to cut back on a necessary public expenditure, at a time of
:20:49. > :20:53.great economic difficulty, and large does it -- budget deficit,
:20:53. > :20:57.and have a welfare scheme which encourages people to work, but
:20:57. > :21:02.helps those who for whatever reason cannot work to get the policy right.
:21:02. > :21:07.That is what is important. I think all this Blairite obsession of
:21:07. > :21:11.image is rather sickening. What about the talk of rebellious
:21:11. > :21:18.behaviour hastening the time of the House of Lords? There is no need
:21:18. > :21:21.for a great reform of the House of Lords, unless you address the
:21:22. > :21:26.question of the power to the House of Lords. At the moment the powers
:21:26. > :21:32.are minimal. It is doing its best and you saw last night, did a very
:21:32. > :21:36.good job in checking the government where it had got something wrong.
:21:36. > :21:45.There is a strong case for increasing the powers of the second
:21:45. > :21:49.chamber, as in the United States, more like two houses which have
:21:50. > :21:53.roughly equal powers. If you are going to have that you both have to
:21:53. > :21:56.be democratically elected, no doubt about that. If that is not on offer
:21:56. > :22:01.there will be no increase whatever in the minimal powers of the House
:22:01. > :22:06.of Lords. All you can do is get people of calibre, people who have
:22:06. > :22:10.the Independent -- independence that comes from life Kenya and let
:22:10. > :22:14.them do their best. A six defeats this year and still don't eerie,
:22:14. > :22:17.not going well for the government in the second chamber. Could this
:22:17. > :22:24.be heavier strengthen the Government's intention to put flesh
:22:24. > :22:29.through reform -- behaviour. For the House of Lords the
:22:29. > :22:32.coalition has threatened to be guilty of sweeping away appointed
:22:32. > :22:36.Piers and having hundreds of them thrown out. For as long as there
:22:36. > :22:41.has been House of Lords there has been those keen to be supported.
:22:41. > :22:46.For Nick Clegg it is to be polished for a modern democratic age.
:22:46. > :22:51.Prime Minister I -- and I are clear, we won the reforms to the upper
:22:51. > :22:55.chamber to take place in 2015. But while we know what we want to
:22:56. > :23:01.achieve, we are open-minded about how we get there. We propose an
:23:01. > :23:05.upper House made up of 300 members. Each eligible for a single term of
:23:05. > :23:09.three parliaments. One of the problems that has always dogged
:23:09. > :23:13.Lords reform is that it is like those domestic jobs you have that
:23:13. > :23:16.you might like to do, perhaps ought to do, but is this the time, there
:23:16. > :23:20.are more pressing things to be getting on with? One thing that
:23:20. > :23:25.might dog this specific attempt to reform the Lords is there is now
:23:25. > :23:28.public appetite for accountability, and for politicians that haven't
:23:28. > :23:32.just spent a great power lives doing this, but have done a real
:23:33. > :23:37.job before and -- spent their entire lives. That is the kind of
:23:37. > :23:42.peer that might be got rid of in an elected House. You are being fooled
:23:42. > :23:45.by the publicity some might like to persuade we are all independent,
:23:45. > :23:49.most of us are retired has been politicians, we do the work there.
:23:50. > :23:52.Of course there are some people with expertise that come in and
:23:52. > :23:55.vote on issues it they are interested in that they are not
:23:55. > :23:59.their most of the town. The lofty ideal is elections give
:24:00. > :24:04.even the most ordinary people a voice. Critics say party politics
:24:04. > :24:09.sucks Independent out of the system. There will be more independent of
:24:09. > :24:12.party them there is now, but we will have a responsibility to the
:24:12. > :24:16.public to listen to what they are saying. He could always get that if
:24:16. > :24:19.you have a strong party whip in the Commons -- you don't always get
:24:19. > :24:25.that. Controversial Bills are driven through without the voice of
:24:25. > :24:29.the public being heard. Are those against elections against reform?
:24:30. > :24:35.There is no way to sit, it is as bad as that, like Ryanair. We don't
:24:35. > :24:40.need more than about 600. There ought to be a method of retirement,
:24:40. > :24:44.with dignity, they should also be a way in which the laws can expel a
:24:44. > :24:49.member. All of those reforms of fine, just not elections.
:24:49. > :24:56.Definitely not. The Baroness will be policed, privately many things
:24:56. > :25:01.these reforms will fail. -- many think. The way it has been behaving
:25:01. > :25:10.recently, the Govan will not want some great big bills next year the
:25:10. > :25:13.Lords can forever -- the government. We are joined by the constitutional
:25:13. > :25:17.affairs minister Mark Harper. Are there voting for Christmas coming
:25:17. > :25:22.soon? The real issue and we have seen this in the debates this year,
:25:22. > :25:26.it does batter who makes the rules in this country and in the 21st
:25:26. > :25:30.century laws should be made by people who are elected. Most
:25:30. > :25:33.politicians in the House of Lords at the moment our party
:25:33. > :25:37.representatives, there are crossbenchers, the most a party
:25:37. > :25:40.representatives. The most common for my job is Member of Parliament.
:25:40. > :25:45.What about all the crossbenchers, the numbers of people who have had
:25:45. > :25:50.other lives and our expert in their areas? That is why that is a good
:25:50. > :25:53.argument put in our proposals we proposed an 80% elected House of
:25:53. > :25:57.Lords proposing to keep 20% crossbenchers so you can have that
:25:57. > :26:01.range of people who did come with a party political point.
:26:01. > :26:06.When will it happen, when will you bring this forward? We want to do
:26:06. > :26:10.it, the date is to make sure we get the first elections in 2015. When
:26:10. > :26:13.is the bill coming forward? As soon as we can. We have published a
:26:13. > :26:16.draft bill which is being scrutinised by a joint committee.
:26:16. > :26:20.We want to listen to what they have got to say, they are doing a
:26:20. > :26:26.serious job, then we will look at what they have to say and bring
:26:26. > :26:32.forward our proposals in due course. How helpful are these defeats?
:26:32. > :26:36.House of Lords clearly is involved in making the law. The message for
:26:36. > :26:40.the public is if you take the view these are important issues and they
:26:40. > :26:44.matter to people and clearly the big debate we have seen on the cap
:26:44. > :26:47.on benefits shows it really matters to people, everyday people in their
:26:47. > :26:52.everyday lives, those decisions should be taken by people elected,
:26:52. > :27:02.not appointed. We shouldn't be making these decisions. The law
:27:02. > :27:02.
:27:02. > :27:07.doesn't have a lot of power -- the Lords. It is our job to improve the
:27:07. > :27:11.rather ramshackle Laws sent away from the Commons, made too quickly
:27:11. > :27:14.and thoughtlessly with unintended consequences. We can put that right
:27:14. > :27:18.and we can advise the Commons this would improve the bill and they
:27:18. > :27:22.very often agree. Did you do it with half the numbers? I think it
:27:22. > :27:30.is cutting it to find. It should be reformed, there are about 800
:27:30. > :27:34.members. 500 turn up regularly and take it seriously. 500 is good, and
:27:34. > :27:41.if everyone does find a seat, and they carry the most amazing range
:27:41. > :27:47.of expertise. They are not locked into short-term outlook, they can
:27:47. > :27:52.take a long-term view of how it will work. It is simply advising
:27:52. > :27:56.the Commons. You can push through this legislation, you said you are
:27:56. > :28:01.going to, so what is the problem? The Commons can get its own way and
:28:01. > :28:05.we are not proposing to change that, but the fact is, the Lords can
:28:05. > :28:09.block legislation if it wants to and can delay it. It can by being
:28:09. > :28:15.able to lay it force decisions on the Commons. This isn't just an
:28:15. > :28:19.advisory chamber, they don't just turn the offer an opinion, and say
:28:19. > :28:23.take-it-or-leave-it. You can get into some real arguments. This is
:28:23. > :28:26.about the law of our land, be made by people elected by the public.
:28:26. > :28:31.You would be happy if they were elected them they could be more
:28:31. > :28:36.forceful in terms of their disagreements. They would be more
:28:36. > :28:40.legitimate. If you ask the public, most people think people who make
:28:40. > :28:46.laws should be elected. Only 6% the public think it should stay as it
:28:46. > :28:51.is. If you have to Eddie Chambers, which one pulls rank? If you have
:28:51. > :28:55.elected Lords they will be far more assertive and wish to impose their
:28:55. > :29:01.will on the Commons and that will be a really important...
:29:01. > :29:05.You will have to bodies doing similar things, there will not be -
:29:05. > :29:10.- they will not be different -- easy to differentiate. We wanted
:29:10. > :29:14.you what is good about the Lords, a long, single, non-renewable terms.
:29:14. > :29:21.Different electoral system, and they will be elected entrenches,
:29:21. > :29:24.not at one go. The Parliament Act will ultimately mean done 2% elated
:29:24. > :29:29.House of Commons will get its own way that people in the Lords will
:29:29. > :29:34.be more legitimate. Do people care enough about this?
:29:34. > :29:38.The real issue is, do they care about what the Lords decide? This
:29:38. > :29:42.week was a good example, making decisions about important issues
:29:42. > :29:47.like the benefits cap which the government -- the population care
:29:47. > :29:51.about. Do the people that make the decisions, are they elected and
:29:51. > :29:55.listen to the public? While we have been debating these
:29:56. > :29:59.issues it has been first Minister's Questions in Edinburgh. The
:29:59. > :30:09.Holyrood parliament. We will be looking at that in a moment. We
:30:09. > :30:10.
:30:10. > :30:13.will be looking at political You're watching the Daily Politics.
:30:13. > :30:18.We are joined by viewers in Scotland and have been watching
:30:18. > :30:21.First Minister's questions from Hollywood. Alex Salmond has been
:30:21. > :30:27.uttering questions on the future of prosperity or otherwise of an
:30:27. > :30:31.independent Scotland. -- answering questions. The reality is that
:30:32. > :30:35.people of this country want confidence in their pensions, their
:30:35. > :30:41.mortgages and their future. Scotland would emerge as an
:30:41. > :30:43.independent country with the 6th highest wealth per head in the
:30:43. > :30:48.Organisation of economic co- operation and Development. That in
:30:48. > :30:51.itself is not the argument for independence. The argument for
:30:51. > :30:54.Independent is self-determination. But given we would be the 6th most
:30:54. > :30:59.prosperous country in the developed world, most people in Scotland will
:30:59. > :31:04.have some degree of confidence in Scotland's ability not just to
:31:04. > :31:12.survive, but prosper as a socially just, economically progressive
:31:12. > :31:16.society. We can now talk to Ascot and political editor. -- out
:31:16. > :31:19.Scotland political editor. It seems that despite the fact meeting still
:31:19. > :31:24.have to go ahead with Westminster politicians, Alex Salmond has gone
:31:24. > :31:29.ahead and published his preferred question anyway, is that a tactic?
:31:29. > :31:32.He is trying to steer matters in his way. The way I think this is
:31:33. > :31:37.going to go is that Alex Salmond is adamant about the timing, he once
:31:37. > :31:42.the referendum in the autumn of 2014. I think he wants -- will get
:31:42. > :31:49.his way. The only way the British government can print that is to
:31:49. > :31:53.hold a referendum of their own, and they don't want to do that. I think
:31:53. > :31:59.Alex Salmond get his weight on autumn 2014 but the UK government
:31:59. > :32:04.get their way on a single question. Alex Salmond wants that single
:32:04. > :32:08.question on independence, the wording will be a straightforward
:32:08. > :32:13.question. He wants the idea of a back-up question, the UK government
:32:13. > :32:17.says no to that. The UK government hold the strings to a large extent,
:32:17. > :32:24.and Alex Salmond except that if he wants a referendum on independence,
:32:24. > :32:28.he has to get back to trade off. Alex Salmond will get his date, the
:32:28. > :32:33.UK government get their questions. So it sounds like everybody is
:32:33. > :32:41.happy? There is a lot of talking to go! The concept of happiness in
:32:41. > :32:46.Scottish politics, they don't really go together! Quite right!
:32:46. > :32:53.They don't often go together! So when other talks scheduled with
:32:53. > :32:58.the Prime Minister? They are having discussions tomorrow, but the
:32:58. > :33:01.secretary of state unfortunately has chickenpox will stop my
:33:01. > :33:06.sympathy to him, I hope he gets better, but it has been deferred to
:33:06. > :33:14.next week. After those preliminary discussions, we will then have
:33:14. > :33:19.discussions between Alex Salmond and the Prime Minister. Thank you.
:33:19. > :33:23.We will be coming back a lot, don't go away! A lot more to come there!
:33:23. > :33:27.If you're young and looking for work, think you will know it is
:33:27. > :33:31.almost as hard to get work experience as to get an actual job.
:33:31. > :33:37.The demand is so high up to companies are charging people for
:33:37. > :33:43.work experience. That striker you pay for it! Youngsters often paying
:33:43. > :33:49.more than �100 a day, so that is going to help you if you come from
:33:49. > :33:55.an ordinary background, isn't it! That is going to help social
:33:56. > :33:59.mobility a lot. With even MPs using free labour dressed up as work
:33:59. > :34:03.experience, our Sunday politics West reporter has been
:34:03. > :34:07.investigating. Students know how important it is
:34:07. > :34:12.to get work experience. Without it, you have basically little or no
:34:12. > :34:19.chance of getting a job. So how far would they go? Would you pay to get
:34:19. > :34:26.work experience? Not sure about that! Personally, no, I don't pick
:34:26. > :34:30.it is really worth it, doing something they want you to do.
:34:30. > :34:36.it was needed to get into the job, then yes. Because that is the only
:34:36. > :34:43.way to get into it. This Somerset company takes a fee for putting
:34:43. > :34:46.people in touch with small businesses. They will provide
:34:46. > :34:50.experience and training so long as you pay for it. A we're providing
:34:50. > :34:54.people with an opportunity to put information on their CV. If you
:34:54. > :34:59.want to get work experience for a large company or a bank, it is
:34:59. > :35:02.reasonable that these multinationals have a
:35:02. > :35:07.responsibility and will provide this training for free. If you look
:35:07. > :35:08.at smaller companies, where you have one or two people in the
:35:09. > :35:14.business, typically they don't provide training because they don't
:35:14. > :35:17.have the money or resources. does run other businesses. If you
:35:17. > :35:23.want experience as a copywriter with him committee will have to pay.
:35:23. > :35:29.You think you're worth that person paying that much a day? I don't
:35:29. > :35:34.really think �130 is frankly enough for somebody to get the kind of
:35:34. > :35:40.experience they can get here, to be honest. Graham is a photographer in
:35:40. > :35:46.Gloucestershire. You can get a day with him for �95. What they will
:35:46. > :35:50.get is my experience of 35 years in this industry, where I can guide
:35:50. > :35:53.them and showed them the aspects of the industry that might be relevant.
:35:53. > :35:56.Also, they will put more value on it if they have invested some of
:35:56. > :36:00.the money into that. It is not the sort of thing I'm doing to make
:36:00. > :36:05.money out of, because I would normally charge a lot more than
:36:05. > :36:09.that for a day. But critics say paying for work experience means it
:36:09. > :36:13.is not open to everyone. De Deputy Prime Minister himself says
:36:13. > :36:20.internships call-back social mobility, even though Westminster
:36:20. > :36:24.is awash with them. All political parties have been running offices
:36:24. > :36:28.on the efforts of underpaid or none paid people for far too long.
:36:28. > :36:33.MP has gone further. Paying out of her own pocket to help youngsters
:36:33. > :36:37.get on the jobs ladder. I do have a large number of people, not in
:36:37. > :36:41.terms, they are work experience. I have had over 40 young people
:36:41. > :36:45.through my office doing work experience in the last year. I pay
:36:45. > :36:51.for their lunches and travel out of my personal money, not the
:36:51. > :36:54.taxpayers' money, not party money, it is my own pocket. I think it is
:36:54. > :36:59.a fantastic opportunity for young people to actually see what it is
:36:59. > :37:03.like. For the student, then, some tough decisions ahead, not least
:37:03. > :37:06.how much they would pay for work experience.
:37:06. > :37:14.We are joined by the Lib Dem and Pete Annette Brooke, and the
:37:14. > :37:20.director of the Institute of economic Affairs. You pay your
:37:20. > :37:23.intones? I do, I have an in first - - advertisement, I should say that
:37:24. > :37:29.money is coming out of the public purse, because it comes out of my
:37:29. > :37:33.staff budget. You charge it as part of your expenses? Per person
:37:33. > :37:37.becomes a salaried person within the House of Commons. But those who
:37:37. > :37:46.are going to be been turns working in your constituency, did they get
:37:46. > :37:50.paid? A not necessarily come up we have a mix of people. If we have a
:37:50. > :37:54.full-blown in turn, that is always within a training programme, so we
:37:54. > :38:01.make sure there is a support package around. Do they get the
:38:01. > :38:05.minimum wage? We have to make sure we cover expenses a folly. The if
:38:05. > :38:11.you are from a poor background, you cannot afford to take that.
:38:11. > :38:16.have to live. Expenses alone, you are already narrowing down the
:38:16. > :38:22.social final of people who can do this? I am individual try to do the
:38:22. > :38:28.best I can come up because I passionately believe in giving the
:38:28. > :38:33.opportunity to young people, and all young people, at that. So I do
:38:33. > :38:40.my best within the context that I can, and for Westminster, I think
:38:40. > :38:45.since the end of 2008, I have been advertising, only at minimum wage,
:38:45. > :38:49.I wish there could be more, but I do think that gives real
:38:49. > :38:53.opportunity for young people to give a bit of a mix. But Nick Clegg,
:38:53. > :38:59.who has made a big deal of this, because of the potential
:38:59. > :39:06.implications for social mobility, he benefited hugely, because he's
:39:07. > :39:12.father gave him a placement in a finish back -- in a Finnish bank.
:39:12. > :39:19.The Lib Dems are still advertising for internas, but with only travel
:39:19. > :39:24.expenses. We have a code of practice, and everybody is being
:39:24. > :39:31.encouraged to do what they can. All power to his elbow, he has
:39:31. > :39:35.recognised he had advantages. I can only talk for myself. But you have
:39:36. > :39:39.made this an issue, and you were doing the best you can. Have you
:39:39. > :39:44.made representations to your party to stop being hypocritical, and
:39:44. > :39:48.practise what Nick Clegg preaches in his speeches? My party knows my
:39:48. > :39:53.views are very well! I have a long background of supporting young
:39:53. > :39:58.people, particularly in business as well. I realised today that I have
:39:58. > :40:04.supported Young Enterprise Inns called for over 40 years. We need
:40:04. > :40:09.to move forward, and Nick Clegg has done the right thing. So why are
:40:09. > :40:14.you only advertising for them getting travel expenses only? Your
:40:14. > :40:21.party put you up today as a spokesperson for your party.
:40:21. > :40:26.need to look at the context within all particles -- parties. We are
:40:26. > :40:30.not auctioning places within my party, that I'm sure of. Work
:40:30. > :40:35.experience and internships, when they first started, they were seen
:40:35. > :40:38.as a way of getting people into the work environment, getting a sense
:40:38. > :40:44.of what they want to do. They have actually turned out to be a gift
:40:44. > :40:47.for the privilege, haven't they? Well-connected folk get their kids
:40:47. > :40:54.in, and they pay for them because they can afford to, and did you
:40:54. > :40:59.have just come out of a decent comprehensive in Scunthorpe, you
:40:59. > :41:02.have no chance of getting on to this gravy-train -- if you have a.
:41:02. > :41:06.I basically agree with you, if you're well connected and have
:41:06. > :41:10.affluent parents, when you leave school, you are going to be in a
:41:10. > :41:14.better position than if you haven't and you have just left a
:41:14. > :41:18.comprehensive school in Scunthorpe. I think that while we don't want to
:41:18. > :41:23.see nepotism to that degree, I think Nick Clegg is right, we have
:41:23. > :41:26.got to be a bit careful before we are against networking. At the
:41:26. > :41:31.Institute of economic Affairs, we get dozens of youngsters saying,
:41:31. > :41:38.can I come in for a few weeks over the summer? We have to turn down
:41:38. > :41:43.most of them the space reasons. It would wait with me if somebody said,
:41:43. > :41:50.this chap is really good, I think it is reasonable to take -- bear in
:41:50. > :41:55.mind those things. We have to have a self- denying ordinance in that
:41:55. > :42:03.regard. But do you? You cannot allow them away in? We pick on
:42:03. > :42:06.quality. You can go to our website, open advertisements. Do you pay?
:42:06. > :42:12.You have the same problem. We have a real problem with the minimum
:42:12. > :42:18.wage, which I think is also helping affluent people. Why is that?
:42:18. > :42:21.Because it is not worth me paying �6.80 an hour, we would rather not
:42:21. > :42:26.have an there than pay than that amount, but that means we have to
:42:26. > :42:32.pay than 0. If you have affluent parents, you can probably afford
:42:32. > :42:40.that. You are living at home in Surrey. We cannot pay them at three
:42:40. > :42:43.or �4 an hour. I think one should make every effort to pay. I admit
:42:43. > :42:48.there is a bias with regard to my Westminster position, because the
:42:48. > :42:51.person has to be able to live in London. I don't know why you were
:42:51. > :42:54.mentioning comprehensives, I'm very proud of my daughters went to the
:42:54. > :42:59.local comprehensive, but it is particularly with the schools that
:42:59. > :43:03.we need to start this business, we need business opportunities locally
:43:03. > :43:06.for those that can't travel, and full engagement across the board
:43:06. > :43:10.with education and business, something I have always tried to
:43:10. > :43:13.make an important thing. We are looking at the structural problem
:43:13. > :43:16.of youth unemployment and we have got to find those opportunities, I
:43:16. > :43:20.think we should all be pulling together to do the best we can.
:43:20. > :43:24.Hazel Blears has come up with this scheme whereby she has raised a lot
:43:24. > :43:28.of money through her own efforts, and through the help of some people,
:43:28. > :43:35.they have brought in a lot of people who were not in turns, they
:43:35. > :43:39.are working for MPs, they are on a decent wage, the living wage, which
:43:39. > :43:43.is more than the minimum wage, and getting some expenses, and they
:43:43. > :43:46.help of accommodation. They have brought in people from all sorts of
:43:46. > :43:52.backgrounds that you wouldn't expect to be doing these jobs.
:43:52. > :43:56.Isn't that the way to go? I think it is one of many ways to go. Very
:43:56. > :44:01.laudable, and I praised the scheme greatly. We are trying to make as
:44:01. > :44:07.wide access as possible, and you try all routes. Are you ashamed to
:44:07. > :44:11.the dutiful grandson work experience? I paid my grandson!
:44:11. > :44:17.he had to be your grandson! I paid him, and if there are so many
:44:17. > :44:21.shades of opinion, and variables in this matter, it opens up all sorts
:44:21. > :44:25.of injustices, and opportunities. There is the opportunity for
:44:25. > :44:29.someone who is well connected by family, when I needed some help,
:44:29. > :44:34.and a paid him more than the minimum wage, but on the other hand,
:44:34. > :44:38.why should companies not pay their employees? If they are using people
:44:38. > :44:42.as employees, they should pay them. If they can't afford to pay them,
:44:42. > :44:46.shouldn't be employing them. they're not really employees if
:44:46. > :44:53.they are coming in as work experience at? It is called low
:44:53. > :44:59.level secretarial help, it can be very happy for. -- helpful. I can
:44:59. > :45:03.see it looks like exploitation, but here, we put on a huge range of
:45:03. > :45:07.events for our students, with professors the road leading
:45:07. > :45:17.academics, we send them away... That is an apprenticeship. Should
:45:17. > :45:19.
:45:19. > :45:22.be charged for that? Or would it be There is the whole scale of
:45:22. > :45:25.apprenticeships, a young people deserve opportunities, they don't
:45:25. > :45:31.deserve to buy into it because they have got rich parents.
:45:31. > :45:35.We will be fit there. We have come a little while from
:45:35. > :45:39.the days when the Tories at their fund-raising events optioned work
:45:39. > :45:47.experience. Thank you. How would you feel about paying
:45:47. > :45:51.your tax if you have every hardened pad well spent? Interesting. The MP,
:45:51. > :45:58.Ben Gummer, thinks we are being set -- kept in the dark and he is
:45:58. > :46:01.talking about getting an itemised and a statement.
:46:01. > :46:08.What I propose is very simple. The government should tell us how much
:46:08. > :46:11.we pay tax and where it goes. He should do so as close as possible
:46:11. > :46:15.to the Chancellor's Budget statement and to the end of the tax
:46:15. > :46:18.year, and her Majesty's Customs and revenue should provide to each
:46:18. > :46:22.person who pays income tax and national insurance statement to
:46:22. > :46:26.that in fact -- to that effect. We would not think about paying a bill
:46:26. > :46:30.in a supermarket or setting up a mobile phone to erect them that if
:46:30. > :46:35.we did receive an itemised receipt in change -- mobile phone direct
:46:35. > :46:39.debit. We get nothing, a notable account of how much we have paid,
:46:39. > :46:44.no detail whatsoever of where it has gone. I would say, there are
:46:44. > :46:49.far more important issues we should be changing about the way
:46:49. > :46:54.expenditure in this country is made, is revealed to the taxpayers. Not
:46:54. > :47:04.least because in this House we do an extremely bad job of analysing
:47:04. > :47:05.
:47:05. > :47:11.We are joined by Ben Gummer he we saw in that clip introducing his
:47:11. > :47:15.bill and Ben page. Ben Gummer, Festival, it would be fascinating
:47:15. > :47:19.to have an itemised breakdown but wouldn't it have the consequence
:47:19. > :47:23.nobody would want to pay it when they saw where it all went?
:47:23. > :47:27.never have done samples they are amazed by some of the things, the
:47:27. > :47:32.differences in where the money goes. Someone on average earnings,
:47:32. > :47:38.�26,000 per year, �2,100 goes to pensions and benefits, �1,000 to
:47:38. > :47:42.the NHS, and then roads and railways get about �70 each. That
:47:42. > :47:45.kind of massive differential people don't recognise if they come out of
:47:45. > :47:51.it straight away without actually seeing the tax statement. What
:47:51. > :47:55.people get best upset about? Is it the actual areas or the amounts?
:47:55. > :47:59.Both. A lot of the things that we pick up on the doorstep as Members
:47:59. > :48:02.of Parliament that all the money is going to Africa and Europe, Trident,
:48:02. > :48:06.whatever somebody's bed there is, it turned out to be miniscule
:48:06. > :48:11.amounts of money compared with the big guns by pensions, aged hundred
:48:11. > :48:20.pounds and rising. The government will not go for that, seeing
:48:20. > :48:24.itemise bills so people can figure out who is getting what? President
:48:24. > :48:28.Obama has done it in the White House you can go online and get a
:48:28. > :48:31.receipt. Number 10 said they were very supportive and the Chancellor
:48:31. > :48:36.was behind it to a good happen quickly.
:48:37. > :48:40.What public opinion be behind it? They would, they like the idea of
:48:40. > :48:43.transparency. People always say if you're looking at their tax bill
:48:43. > :48:47.and you can look at local authority council tax, they absolutely want
:48:47. > :48:50.to know, it is one of the things they are most interested in, where
:48:50. > :48:53.does it go? As Ben has rarely illustrated people are deluded
:48:53. > :48:58.about how much goes into different areas.
:48:58. > :49:03.We do get that breakdown from local councils and a good read it
:49:03. > :49:09.carefully enough, actually, to see. -- and they did read it. Would
:49:09. > :49:13.people take enough notice? everybody would look at it but a
:49:13. > :49:17.lot more people would. One difference is in a country I leave
:49:17. > :49:20.relied on centralised taxation you cancel tax isn't that much of your
:49:20. > :49:24.income. This is a large part of your income and they would be very
:49:24. > :49:30.interested. Maybe you could tick the box, would you be allowed to
:49:30. > :49:32.move it around? Would there be any option? What
:49:32. > :49:38.would you like to see? A I would like to withdraw my contribution to
:49:38. > :49:42.Trident, he however small it might be, not keen on war, I would like
:49:42. > :49:48.money back, happy about roads and the NHS and education. Steamy as
:49:49. > :49:53.much as you like on those issues. What would follow from the popular
:49:53. > :49:56.engagement would be you can actually specify and you can ask to
:49:57. > :50:01.opt out of certain payments and begin to shape how your money is
:50:01. > :50:09.spent, a dead pig is possible but am sure people long to do that once
:50:09. > :50:13.Basie -- I do not think is possible. People to make decisions, and half
:50:13. > :50:18.the population just say it this is ultimately what I choose
:50:18. > :50:24.politicians to do for may. If you force people to make really tough
:50:24. > :50:31.choices, the sort of policies Cabinet have to make -- the sort of
:50:31. > :50:36.choices Cabinet have to make, half were not to it. -- will not do it.
:50:36. > :50:40.Even when asked to bridges spending and they will, people will put it
:50:40. > :50:43.up on things they care about like young people. It would be
:50:43. > :50:46.interesting for the government did you see where people in terms of
:50:46. > :50:51.numbers would like to spend more money, perhaps, as well as less
:50:52. > :50:57.money or no money. We are already having discussion. It actually
:50:57. > :51:02.generate democratic discussion. Politics are talking -- but you
:51:02. > :51:09.just talking about Chileans, that his understanding -- people talking
:51:09. > :51:13.about trillions, that is out side the understanding of many. On the
:51:13. > :51:23.issues the House of Lords are looking out, billions of pounds,
:51:23. > :51:23.
:51:23. > :51:29.taxpayers can make a real understanding of what it DLA means.
:51:29. > :51:34.Will result in people paying -- paying less tax? One anxiety, the
:51:34. > :51:37.high proportion of pensions bulkiness print-out, is that they
:51:37. > :51:41.might create a backlash against the old. I take people to say let's cut
:51:41. > :51:44.the pensions, they are old. It is an expanding part of that
:51:45. > :51:48.population, you think it would be understandable. Younger people
:51:48. > :51:56.might feel too much of my money is going to these old people, they
:51:56. > :52:03.don't deserve it. They don't vote. It depends how you feel about young
:52:03. > :52:08.people. The sixteen-year-old, you have got to regenerate an interest
:52:08. > :52:13.in the politics. How quickly do you think it might come in? He said it
:52:13. > :52:19.could be adopted, you sounded optimistic? It is very easy to do.
:52:19. > :52:22.Very cheap. Cheaper than what has good does it every week with its
:52:22. > :52:27.Clubcard members. Incredibly easy to do this, personal statement, the
:52:27. > :52:31.technology is there. Their sponsor the have Repsol it is free, he
:52:31. > :52:36.could happen within months. -- let's sponsored the envelope so it
:52:36. > :52:40.is free. You have got it all worked out.
:52:40. > :52:47.Have you enjoyed listening to the velvety tones of our guests, Joan
:52:47. > :52:50.Bakewell? It has been reported she is too posh for some programmes. I
:52:50. > :52:55.thought she would definitely be to push for this lot here. She has
:52:55. > :53:00.been told her accent means she will not get work in the BBC. I don't
:53:00. > :53:08.believe that for a moment. Anyway, does it matter how you speak these
:53:08. > :53:12.days? As a political commentator or politician? Here is our report on
:53:12. > :53:18.political pipes. In this game voice is everything,
:53:18. > :53:23.but some politicians have had a few vocal difficulties. Tony Blair knew
:53:23. > :53:33.what Joan Bakewell has been talking about, he famously dropped his
:53:33. > :53:41.
:53:41. > :53:44.It is it is a wonderful pleasure to be back here with you will.
:53:44. > :53:48.Research from Canada shows voters like their leaders to have deep
:53:48. > :53:52.voices. Alison Margaret Thatcher learned from her speech coach,
:53:52. > :53:57.compare and contrast these clips from the beginning and end -- a
:53:57. > :54:00.lesson. We must now stand together and fight for the things in which
:54:00. > :54:05.we all believe, they are more important than any of us
:54:05. > :54:10.individually. We wanted the European Parliament to be the
:54:10. > :54:17.democratic body of the community. The commission to be the executive,
:54:17. > :54:24.and the Council of Ministers to be All were no amount of voice
:54:24. > :54:29.coaching could help. -- could help one of her successors. Do not
:54:29. > :54:32.underestimate the determination of a quiet man. Critics of the Labour
:54:32. > :54:37.leader Ed Miliband say it is not volume that is a problem for him,
:54:37. > :54:43.but the fact he sounds quite nasal. He has eased -- even had surgery on
:54:43. > :54:45.his nose. He claims that was for breathing problems. I had a
:54:45. > :54:55.deviated septum and it needed repositioning, typical Labour
:54:55. > :54:57.
:54:57. > :55:05.leader, as soon as he is elected As they don't say, all politics is
:55:05. > :55:09.local. We are joined by the first coach,
:55:09. > :55:15.Barbara Berkery, who worked on the film, The King's Speech. -- a voice
:55:15. > :55:25.coach. I didn't work on that film, but are normally work with Geoffrey
:55:25. > :55:25.
:55:25. > :55:29.Rush, I worked on Shakespeare in Love. We would eschew the research,
:55:29. > :55:35.we have got too many, anyway. Politicians who have changed their
:55:35. > :55:40.accents most. Margaret Thatcher. She had elocution lessons at school.
:55:41. > :55:45.She demanded as herself. Probably to get rid of the Midlands accent,
:55:45. > :55:53.Grantham accent. Then it was thought to become too posh, and she
:55:53. > :55:58.had voice lessons to change back. The thing about her, within the
:55:58. > :56:02.time period she was, she would have had a normal at some when she came
:56:02. > :56:08.from then everybody tries to lose their accents as they climbed up
:56:08. > :56:13.the greasy pole. Everybody. You did that, didn't you? My mother wanted
:56:13. > :56:20.me to get on the world and she semi- to elocution lessons.
:56:20. > :56:28.were in Stockport. -- sent me. Stockport, south Lancashire.
:56:28. > :56:35.Certainly not posh. Why are people who have elocution lessons like
:56:35. > :56:39.Joan Bakewell or as Sue Lawley or that Arctic critic we had on. --
:56:39. > :56:43.art critic. How do the end up sounding more posh than posh
:56:43. > :56:48.people? Because they are learning something and it is not becoming
:56:48. > :56:53.part of their being. When I work with actors we spend a lot of time
:56:53. > :56:59.each -- learning each sound individually, where you plated,
:56:59. > :57:02.where your tongue does so it becomes part of you. When it
:57:02. > :57:06.becomes on top of you, painted on, it sounds unnatural because it has
:57:06. > :57:11.not become an integrated part of you.
:57:11. > :57:18.Do politicians consciously still change their accents? There is such
:57:18. > :57:22.a variety now on broadcasting does it matter as much? I think it does.
:57:22. > :57:29.Add 1 point it was all regional accents which is very popular, --
:57:29. > :57:32.at one point. It is all fashion, it goes on all the time. We had Gordon
:57:32. > :57:37.Brown when he became Prime Minister, he tried to lose a lot of his
:57:37. > :57:47.Scottish accent. Absolutely remarkable difference. I never
:57:47. > :57:52.noticed that. You have never tried to lose yours? No. The Scottish and
:57:52. > :58:02.Welsh a privileged as it is an a loud accent you have. The English
:58:02. > :58:08.cannot distinguish Scottish accent. This is to do with class, deciding
:58:08. > :58:16.which lay you come from and got his people .. It is pretty clear Alex
:58:16. > :58:19.Ferguson is not an aristocrat. is to do with the words he uses.
:58:19. > :58:24.Most of the aristocrats left Scotland a long time ago and they
:58:24. > :58:29.didn't look after their people. are reading the long -- a long
:58:29. > :58:37.history books, they are everywhere. The Duke of the glue, Duke of
:58:37. > :58:47.Hamilton pulled up you go Paisley., We could do that this all day.
:58:47. > :58:52.
:58:52. > :58:55.Thank you to our guests, thank you I will be back tonight with Alain