:00:43. > :00:48.Afternoon. Welcome to the Daily Politics. Has David Cameron got
:00:48. > :00:51.another fight looming over Europe? He's facing accusations from his
:00:51. > :00:55.backbenchers that he's weakened his opposition to the new pact between
:00:55. > :01:03.25 of the 27 European Union countries. He'll be explaining his
:01:03. > :01:08.position to the Commons later this afternoon.
:01:08. > :01:14.Vocational subjects will no longer be in the school tables. HMS
:01:14. > :01:19.Dauntless is to head to the faubg - - Falklands. There has been rising
:01:19. > :01:28.tension. We'll have the latest. Is beautiful always best? We'll look
:01:28. > :01:33.at one campaign to make us eat ugly vegetables. All that in the next
:01:33. > :01:36.hour. With me for the start, is Steve Potter, strategy director of
:01:36. > :01:41.Bibby Line Group. Welcome to the programme. That is the firm, that
:01:41. > :01:45.among other activities, operates Costcutter shops. We hope to be
:01:45. > :01:48.joined by the journalist and founder of the West London Free
:01:48. > :01:58.School, Toby Young, who is stuck in traffic. A familiar story. If you
:01:58. > :02:00.
:02:00. > :02:05.have questions, you can tweet us using the hash tag, askToby.
:02:05. > :02:08.Starting with bankers' bonuses. Starting with Stephen Hester and Ed
:02:08. > :02:13.Miliband has been touring the TV studios this morning. We'll see
:02:13. > :02:17.what he had to say. I hope the Government does use its share
:02:17. > :02:22.holding in the Royal Bank of Scotland, which it hasn't done, to
:02:22. > :02:25.have more restraint across the board. I fear what has happened is
:02:25. > :02:29.the bonus merry-go-round across the industry is unchecked. That is why
:02:29. > :02:35.we have called a vote next Tuesday on a tax on the bonuses, because
:02:35. > :02:39.the taxpayer deserves to get money back. That's while this carries on.
:02:39. > :02:42.That was Ed Miliband. Steve Potter, everyone's had their penny's worth,
:02:42. > :02:45.do you think Stephen Hester should have kept his bonus or did he do
:02:45. > :02:50.the right thing? In the circumstances he did the right
:02:50. > :02:52.thing this time. He has come out of this smelling of roses. He's got
:02:52. > :03:00.sympathy from the other bankers for probably being the worst-paid
:03:00. > :03:05.banker in the City. Sympathy from the public, because he's taken a
:03:05. > :03:09.moral stance. In reference to Ed Miliband's comments, I think it's
:03:09. > :03:14.time now to get in front of the game rather than having a trial by
:03:14. > :03:17.media every time the question comes up. Does that mean it should be it?
:03:17. > :03:22.There shouldn't be a look at bonuses across the board, that we
:03:22. > :03:26.need to look at the whole culture. Do you think Stephen Hester has
:03:26. > :03:31.done the symbolic thing and we should move on? No, we should look
:03:31. > :03:35.at them. Being taxed and bonuses being absolutely clearly
:03:35. > :03:39.performance related. It's difficult to argue with those things, but I
:03:39. > :03:43.just need to repeat that it's important to set those goals up
:03:43. > :03:46.front and not get into the position we've been in of somebody having
:03:46. > :03:50.been awarded a bonus on a package they thought they were being
:03:50. > :03:55.recruited on and a trial by media to judge whether they are allowed
:03:55. > :03:59.to keep that. What about in your company? What are they like? Does
:03:59. > :04:03.everyone at senior level get one? Is it reward-related in the sense
:04:03. > :04:08.of performance? Absolutely. There are no bonuses in our economy which
:04:08. > :04:13.are not -- company which are not so and especially relating to
:04:13. > :04:16.performance over the long term. They are long term, so not built in
:04:16. > :04:20.as an extension of your salary so you come in and you are always
:04:20. > :04:26.going to get a bonus, just a question of how much? Absolutely
:04:26. > :04:30.not, no. Performance-related. they stopping at the moment? Have
:04:30. > :04:33.you been rowing back or are people getting them? Given that as a
:04:33. > :04:38.company we are performing really well you would expect everybody in
:04:38. > :04:42.the company to be rewarded fairly. Well, it's one of those issues that
:04:42. > :04:48.you think will go on and on. It will be interesting so see what
:04:48. > :04:50.happens over the months, as we hear of other bonuses, although not
:04:50. > :04:53.necessarily-state-owned bankers. It's time for the quiz. The
:04:54. > :05:02.question for today is which of these qualifications is currently
:05:02. > :05:07.worth the equivalent of four GCSEs in school league tables? Is it A, a
:05:07. > :05:13.fish husbandry, level-two certificate in nail technology,
:05:13. > :05:16.horse care or a legal two award in travel and tourism. If you manage -
:05:16. > :05:21.- if he manages to get here, Toby Young will give us the correct
:05:21. > :05:29.answer. We will turn our eyes to Syria, because later today the Arab
:05:29. > :05:31.League will ask the UN Security Council to back a resolution for
:05:31. > :05:36.Bashar Al-Assad to transfer powers to his deputy. They say 5,000
:05:36. > :05:38.people have been killed by the regime over past ten months.
:05:38. > :05:43.Western states, including Britain, are backing the resolution, but
:05:43. > :05:47.Russia, which has a veto, has said it's not happy with the draft.
:05:47. > :05:50.Barbara Plett is at the UN and joins us now. Isn't that the
:05:50. > :05:55.problem, Russia will not sign up and so there won't be an agreement
:05:55. > :05:59.on this? That's been the problem before. It's been the problem for
:05:59. > :06:04.about ten months now, because the Security Council has been
:06:04. > :06:08.deadlocked on this issue. When the opportunity came up with the Arab
:06:08. > :06:11.League Britain and other western states thought oh, this may be the
:06:11. > :06:14.way to breakthrough this, because if the Arab League is coming to the
:06:15. > :06:19.Security Council and asking for help, asking for support for a plan,
:06:19. > :06:25.that it drew up on ending the crisis, it will be much more
:06:25. > :06:29.difficult for Russia to continue to say no. That's why today the head
:06:29. > :06:33.of the Arab League, as well as the Prime Minister are Qatar are coming
:06:33. > :06:36.here to make their appeal in person and that's why Britain and other
:06:36. > :06:40.states are sending their foreign ministers to back that up. That
:06:40. > :06:46.might not be enough. That is true. If it isn't enough, where do they
:06:46. > :06:51.go next? Well, I think if they are not able to pass this resolution in
:06:51. > :06:54.front of the Security Council, the council options really are very
:06:54. > :06:58.limited. I don't really see where they can go from here, because at
:06:58. > :07:01.that point it becomes very different positions about what is
:07:01. > :07:05.going on. It becomes an issue that you can't bridge with negotiation
:07:05. > :07:10.and the basic difference, I think, is the fate of Bashar Al-Assad at
:07:10. > :07:14.this point. The plan, the resolution, calls for a political
:07:14. > :07:18.transition plan where he'll in effect hand power to the deputy to
:07:18. > :07:21.oversee a national unit government. The Russians have said that sounds
:07:21. > :07:25.like regime change and they don't want to give up support for Bashar
:07:25. > :07:28.Al-Assad, because he's a strong ally, but also because they feel
:07:29. > :07:33.that if this plan is imposed on Syria, with the Syrians rejecting
:07:33. > :07:36.it, it would cause more violence and cause the civil war to escalate.
:07:36. > :07:39.That's a very fundamental difference. If they are not able to
:07:39. > :07:42.bridge that with the resolution, it's difficult to see how to do it
:07:42. > :07:49.another way. What is your feeling in terms of being able to persuade
:07:49. > :07:54.the Russians? Is there a sense it's possible? I think there is a sense
:07:54. > :07:59.that if it is possible it would be in this way - by having a strong
:07:59. > :08:01.call from the region, because the Security Council puts stock in
:08:01. > :08:06.regional requests. These are countries which neighbour Syria and
:08:06. > :08:11.they've come up with the plan mostly by consensus. Only one
:08:11. > :08:16.country, Lebanon, disassociated itself from it. Having said that,
:08:16. > :08:19.the statements coming from Russia about draft have been negative and
:08:19. > :08:24.they've said this is really unacceptable and they've accused
:08:24. > :08:27.the Security Council of moving in the wrong detection, so it's
:08:27. > :08:30.difficult to see whether -- direction, so it is difficult to
:08:30. > :08:36.see if Russia can accept this. There is going to be every attempt
:08:36. > :08:44.to try to make it abstain, not veto the resolution. In the meantime,
:08:44. > :08:47.the violence has got so bad, that the Arab League has had to take out
:08:47. > :08:49.its monitors? That's right. The nations are using the situation on
:08:49. > :08:55.the ground are trying to add pressure. They are saying the
:08:55. > :09:00.situation is deteriorating very badly. It can't afford to stay
:09:00. > :09:05.silent any more. Having said that, if the resolution is passed I don't
:09:06. > :09:08.think anyone is under any illusion that the violence with industry, --
:09:08. > :09:11.end, because the Security Council is not saying it will go in and try
:09:11. > :09:17.to help to bring an end to the violence, but what the resolution
:09:17. > :09:23.would do is put a lot of pressure on the government and in that
:09:23. > :09:26.Syrians would be isolated because if Russia were not to veto, that
:09:26. > :09:30.would be a message saying they were not supporting Syria in the way
:09:30. > :09:33.they have been. That is really what the aim of the resolution is.
:09:33. > :09:38.sort of attempt at military intervention by Arab armies, that
:09:39. > :09:42.is very unlikely to happen, isn't it? Yes, I think that is very
:09:42. > :09:47.unlikely. There had been a suggestion from the Prime Minister
:09:47. > :09:51.of Qatar that some Arab peacekeepers be sent in, but nobody
:09:51. > :09:54.took that up Any international intervention, people are very wary
:09:54. > :09:59.about. I'm almost certain that wouldn't get through the Security
:09:59. > :10:05.Council. There have been some suggestion that Turkey might, if
:10:05. > :10:08.not send in troops, but create a buffer zone and carve out a safe
:10:08. > :10:12.haven. Perhaps if the country descends into complete chaos that
:10:12. > :10:17.may be an option, but if there is any military intervention it will
:10:17. > :10:21.be very hard won and people are wary about intervening in Syria,
:10:21. > :10:25.because of the delicate situation. Thank you.
:10:25. > :10:29.Joining me now is the former Foreign Office minister, Mark
:10:29. > :10:31.Malloch-Brown and the chief co- ordinator of the Syrian network for
:10:31. > :10:34.human rights. Welcome to the programme. We have been hearing
:10:34. > :10:38.from Barbara about the fact it could be very difficult to persuade
:10:39. > :10:43.Russia to sign up to any resolution and without that presumably the
:10:43. > :10:49.violence just continues and Syria draws closer to civil war? Well,
:10:49. > :10:55.basically that is true, because the people there cannot tolerate any
:10:55. > :10:59.more humiliation and on the other hand, the Free Syrian Army stated
:10:59. > :11:04.their job is to protect the peaceful demonstrations, but there
:11:05. > :11:10.are other people who are tempted on a daily basis by that access of
:11:10. > :11:14.violence that they have only one solution, to hold arms and join the
:11:14. > :11:17.Free Syrian Army and I think this balance would be broken very
:11:17. > :11:21.shortly if the international community does not accept step in
:11:21. > :11:25.to protect those civilians. Stepping in, you mean intervene in
:11:25. > :11:28.a military way, not just diplomatically? No, there is a
:11:28. > :11:33.point in the middle, which is different from the Libyan scenario.
:11:33. > :11:39.It is proposed in three steps. The first, which is the humanitarian
:11:39. > :11:43.corridors, to help those indirect victims, who are the few of this
:11:43. > :11:48.furious mood to give them food and medical supplies. The twoing second
:11:48. > :11:53.things, the buffer zone and no-fly zone which Wylfa sill Tate to break
:11:53. > :12:00.up the main body of the Army, which is still waiting for the right time
:12:01. > :12:04.to defect and dessert the Army and join the Free Syrian Army. Mark
:12:04. > :12:07.Malloch-Brown, the violence is getting worse and there was a
:12:07. > :12:11.terrible day yesterday. Just listening there, it doesn't sound
:12:11. > :12:15.as if there is going to be a resolution. You are experienced.
:12:15. > :12:19.Can Russia be pushed into this? think Russia's very, very worried
:12:19. > :12:25.that it's the thin end of the wedge to a full intervention on regime
:12:25. > :12:31.change and in that sense we are bearing the scars and price of lib
:12:31. > :12:35.-- Libya. Obviously, the situation cannot continue and therefore, some
:12:35. > :12:38.kind of compromise, which allows humanitarian safe havens and
:12:39. > :12:44.corridors and their protection, but it absolutely has cast in stone
:12:44. > :12:50.that it can't go further. That may ultimately be where we get to,
:12:50. > :12:55.particularly if any troop involvement under the UN flag is of
:12:55. > :13:00.Turks or Indonesians or malaisians or Bangladeshis, people -
:13:00. > :13:05.Acceptable in that sense? Yes, so Turkey may or may not be as a
:13:05. > :13:15.neighbour. I think the much more important point in a way is why has
:13:15. > :13:19.
:13:19. > :13:27.this regime held on for as long as it has? An Aliadiere Wyatt -- as an
:13:27. > :13:30.alwit priority, we wonder why they are hanging on. While it is people
:13:30. > :13:34.fighting for their freedom, somehow that stability card has kept him in
:13:34. > :13:39.power. What we have to say to people is that Bashar Al-Assad is
:13:39. > :13:42.the barrier to stability. He's no longer the key and switch the
:13:42. > :13:45.internal dynamic, but it's hard to do when everyone is fighting. We
:13:45. > :13:50.need peace and dialogue as quickly as possible. That is not likely to
:13:50. > :13:55.happen, is it? Taking the stability point, do you agree with that, that
:13:55. > :13:59.there is a big body of public opinion that thinks that Bashar Al-
:13:59. > :14:05.Assad actually keeps stability to some extent, a modicum, rather than
:14:05. > :14:08.letting the mob rule and run Syria? No, this is not true, because from
:14:09. > :14:14.the observations we have on daily basis from the ground, you can look
:14:14. > :14:19.at all the minorities in general are - for example, the Kurds,
:14:19. > :14:23.yesterday, they lost two dead persons. They are a big minority.
:14:23. > :14:28.All the other minorities are feeling now this regime is not
:14:28. > :14:32.viable any more. They were in the past, but now they start to change.
:14:32. > :14:35.Do you think now there could be a situation where he may go
:14:35. > :14:41.relatively quickly, if that turn, as you described it, publicly in
:14:41. > :14:48.Syria, is that it happening? If we can switch that diealic, it is
:14:48. > :14:52.critical to him -- dynamic, it is critical to him going. The way to
:14:52. > :14:58.consolidate that is to try to resource peace. So you put in
:14:58. > :15:03.humanitarian corridors and put in a political dialogue. Will he let Dow
:15:03. > :15:10.that though? The fact that -- let you do that though? It is critical
:15:10. > :15:13.to get everyone on side, but if there's a plan here for a
:15:13. > :15:17.transition and evolutionary process which secures security and
:15:17. > :15:21.stability and whose end point is a government that represents all
:15:21. > :15:31.Syrians, then we are beginning to see the outlines of how we might
:15:31. > :15:34.
:15:34. > :15:38.bet there, but it is actually Is it time to call on other groups
:15:38. > :15:45.for some kind of ceasefire? I think this pitch needs to be directed to
:15:45. > :15:49.the regime. I was saying, both sides. Well, the other side, they
:15:49. > :15:52.are defectors from the army. They stated very clearly that the
:15:52. > :15:56.responsibility is to protect civilians. If they are in a
:15:56. > :16:02.defensive position, you cannot tell them, just leave your own people.
:16:03. > :16:07.Today, 13 people have died under the rebels, in their houses, so
:16:07. > :16:12.they cannot keep silent. So it is not practical? You are completely
:16:12. > :16:16.right, it needs to be directed mainly at President Assad. He is
:16:16. > :16:20.now the instigator of the primary violence. By point isn't that
:16:20. > :16:25.everybody puts down their weapons and declares a ceasefire, there has
:16:25. > :16:28.to be a political process to achieve that. I'm saying that the
:16:28. > :16:32.Security Council and neighbours have to prioritise that. I think
:16:32. > :16:37.that once the fighting stops, President Assad is finished. He is
:16:37. > :16:45.only able to hold on in a situation of chaos, where he has the military
:16:45. > :16:51.on his side and he can go on making this kind of argument. If we can
:16:51. > :16:56.get to 8 and a half -- took a political argument, it is finished
:16:56. > :17:00.for him. This regime is not viable without the iron grip on the
:17:00. > :17:06.country, with the security forces and not just the military forces.
:17:06. > :17:08.They are controlling the country, starting from the family and
:17:09. > :17:15.spreading to the Haute Provence is. Do you think the international
:17:15. > :17:20.response has been a adequate? they feel that they are confronting
:17:20. > :17:24.Iran through Syria. They see Syria as the forefront of the Iranian
:17:24. > :17:28.regime. They are afraid that they will create a bigger war in the
:17:28. > :17:33.region. I think the best way is to approach that gradually, in a
:17:33. > :17:37.different scenario, different from the Libyan one. So they try to
:17:37. > :17:40.implement steps that can help the Syrians themselves to free
:17:40. > :17:49.themselves by their own hands, without having this kind of
:17:49. > :17:54.external interference. Why the international community does not
:17:54. > :17:58.recognise the political body, the Syrian National Council, as the
:17:58. > :18:03.main opposition, I don't know. They need to say that they recognise and
:18:03. > :18:08.support them. That is what they did, to some extent, in Libya. Why is
:18:08. > :18:14.that not happening? There is some contact with the Libyan -- Syrian
:18:14. > :18:19.National Council now, we can move to beginning to recognise it. But
:18:19. > :18:23.we need to unleash that kind of diplomatic campaign now. We are
:18:23. > :18:28.both agreeing on the main point, that a fully fledged intervention,
:18:29. > :18:35.of the Libyan kind, is really going to stir the flames. I agree that
:18:35. > :18:41.Iran is a dangerous neighbourhood behind this regime, but it is even
:18:41. > :18:44.more broadly that we have Hezbollah in Lebanon, it is a tinderbox and
:18:44. > :18:48.it needs to be handled carefully. But none of the careful handling
:18:49. > :18:54.can be an excuse for not getting to the endgame, which is a change of
:18:54. > :19:00.leadership and regime in Syria. That has to happen. There is no way
:19:01. > :19:04.back. OK, thank you very much. Now, from the Middle East to the
:19:04. > :19:08.South Atlantic, where tensions have been increasing between Britain and
:19:08. > :19:11.Argentina over the Falkland Islands. This morning we learned that the
:19:11. > :19:15.Royal Navy is to send one of its newest warships to the area. At
:19:15. > :19:19.Westminster, MPs have been debating the future of the disputed
:19:19. > :19:24.territory. Ben Geoghegan is in central lobby. Yes, the Ministry of
:19:24. > :19:27.Defence have been saying that this morning that the deployment of HMS
:19:27. > :19:31.Dauntless is simply routine. But it does come at a time of rising
:19:31. > :19:36.tension between Britain and Argentina, with Argentina at
:19:36. > :19:39.demanding a renegotiation of sovereignty and setting up what the
:19:39. > :19:44.Foreign Office have described today as an economic blockade against
:19:44. > :19:48.Falklands island vessels in the region. Joining us is Guy Opperman,
:19:48. > :19:54.the MP that organised today's debate, and also Lord West, the
:19:54. > :19:58.commander of HMS ardent during the Falklands conflict. Before asking
:19:58. > :20:02.about the debate, give us your assessment of how you read the
:20:02. > :20:06.situation between Britain and Argentina. Where is this tension
:20:06. > :20:09.going to lead us? There is certainly an economic blockade. It
:20:09. > :20:14.was good in today's debate to see the entirety of the house
:20:14. > :20:17.representing all aspects of the footprint -- different political
:20:17. > :20:24.views, supporting the Falkland islanders and the Foreign Office,
:20:24. > :20:28.who have worked very hard to ensure that the blockade is lifted so that
:20:28. > :20:33.they can get on with the economic growth that has taken place. It is
:20:33. > :20:37.a very strong Ireland, with very strong views on self-determination
:20:37. > :20:41.and the way they should be going forward. A Lord West, we heard from
:20:41. > :20:46.Jeremy Browne, the Foreign Office minister, saying that Argentina may
:20:46. > :20:51.yet seek to intensify their pressure. Is that how you see it?
:20:51. > :20:55.They may do, they may be doing some of this for internal regions.
:20:55. > :20:58.to differ -- dangers? It is, if you get a splinter group of the
:20:58. > :21:01.military, you sometimes think there was an opportunity and things can
:21:01. > :21:05.happen. We have to be very robust in the way that we respond, which I
:21:05. > :21:08.think the Government are doing. We have to be sure we get the defence
:21:08. > :21:13.is right because there is no way we could recapture them as we could be
:21:13. > :21:16.for, because we do not have the carrier aircraft. You agree with
:21:17. > :21:20.what Sir Mike Jackson said at the weekend? Absolutely, I have said
:21:20. > :21:24.it's a number of times. Is that a weakness that you think the
:21:24. > :21:27.Government should not have allowed? I don't think they should have got
:21:27. > :21:31.rid of Harrier jets, but the important thing is to make sure
:21:31. > :21:36.that the islands are defender probably. It is a standing
:21:36. > :21:41.commitment and inevitably, one of the Type 45 Destroyers will end up
:21:41. > :21:45.there. What it does, because it is an amazing anti air warfare system,
:21:45. > :21:50.if it is close to the island it can make sure that nothing can get to
:21:50. > :21:54.the airfield very well. That is a step up. I'm sure the deployment is
:21:54. > :21:59.routine, because we have so few of them, you have to use them
:21:59. > :22:03.everywhere. In the debate today, you are calling for self-
:22:03. > :22:09.determination to be written into law under the new White Paper that
:22:09. > :22:11.the Government is bringing out. Why is that so important, when the
:22:11. > :22:14.Government are making clear that there is no question about self-
:22:14. > :22:18.determination for the people of the Falkland Islands? I welcome
:22:18. > :22:23.completely that the Government are very supportive of the principle of
:22:23. > :22:28.self-determination. I accept that it comes within United Nations
:22:28. > :22:32.conventions. It would be a strong and reassuring decision by the
:22:32. > :22:35.Government in the White Paper if they were to say to all of the
:22:35. > :22:41.overseas territories with a settled population, of which there are well
:22:41. > :22:44.over a dozen, that those people, in a natural law of this country, it
:22:44. > :22:48.is their self-determination principle that decides what will
:22:48. > :22:51.happen to the islands. There has been a history down the years, in
:22:51. > :22:55.relation to Gibraltar or the Falkland Islands in the 1960s,
:22:55. > :22:59.where the Government of the day has not necessarily been as supportive
:22:59. > :23:03.and has been in negotiations that the islanders were not aware of.
:23:03. > :23:08.While I accept that this government is very robust and resolute in its
:23:08. > :23:11.support, I want to try to ensure that it does not waver in future.
:23:11. > :23:18.Lord West, do you think there was a danger that it might waver?
:23:18. > :23:22.Historically, if we look back, we were certainly wavering before 82.
:23:22. > :23:29.I have to say, I rather support this. I was not aware it was going
:23:29. > :23:34.on. I was delighted to see an article in The Or Observer, where
:23:34. > :23:39.it showed that some of the entrants for the conflict, they had been
:23:39. > :23:43.back and told their children, this place is not Argentine, they eat
:23:43. > :23:48.fish and chips and they are very different. If that if Labour can
:23:48. > :23:52.get over and it links in with self- determination, I think that would
:23:52. > :23:54.be better than sabre-rattling and stupidity. The Argentinians are
:23:54. > :23:58.friends, we want to trade with them and we would like a better
:23:58. > :24:03.relationship. I believe the younger people of the Argentinian country
:24:03. > :24:07.believe that. A good conciliatory note to end on. Thank you both very
:24:07. > :24:12.much. What can be done to save the
:24:12. > :24:18.British high street? In the last year, giants like mother where, --
:24:18. > :24:26.Mothercare, H&M Bay and Habitat have closed stores. The Government
:24:26. > :24:36.have appointed Mary Portas to carry out a review. We sent our own regal
:24:36. > :24:37.
:24:37. > :24:41.reporter to survey the changing Most of us buy into the nostalgia
:24:41. > :24:46.for the days when your high-street offered a butcher, hardware store
:24:47. > :24:52.and Baker, separate shops, separate people, members of the community.
:24:52. > :24:58.Not like today, with that parade of homogenised brands that seemingly
:24:58. > :25:02.festoon the high street of any town. The story we are always sold is
:25:02. > :25:06.that high street is dying, unable to deal with multiple competition
:25:06. > :25:10.and full of boarded-up shops, unable to deal with the competition
:25:10. > :25:14.of the supermarket, online shopping and the fact that customers just
:25:15. > :25:19.don't have that much money any more. The only survivors being are those
:25:19. > :25:23.that have radically changed their business plan. But is that actually
:25:23. > :25:26.true? I think we have to remember that a lot of retailers were over-
:25:26. > :25:31.represented on the high street. It is an extremely competitive market.
:25:31. > :25:35.It is also very flat. For a lot of retailers, the only way to grow is
:25:36. > :25:39.to steal a share from the competition. With that in mind, we
:25:39. > :25:43.have to remember a lot of average retailers are out there. Over the
:25:43. > :25:46.years, their brand has become muddled, they have been under too
:25:46. > :25:52.much competition, whether from supermarkets or the internet, and,
:25:52. > :25:58.as a result, when consumer spending becomes constrained, it is very
:25:58. > :26:01.difficult to justify a place for these retailers. So, what we are
:26:01. > :26:06.witnessing is pressure from the supermarket, internet and recession,
:26:06. > :26:10.but it is commercial revolution, not high-street death. But that
:26:10. > :26:14.does not make easy. It has to be acknowledged that if you are a
:26:14. > :26:18.Tesco type company and have an army of lawyers and planning experts,
:26:18. > :26:21.you can cut through the system like a knife through butter. Small
:26:21. > :26:26.independent shops cannot. There was a case for balancing the playing
:26:26. > :26:29.field, partly through democracy and partly through direct intervention.
:26:29. > :26:38.We should be doing everything we can to create a mixed high street,
:26:38. > :26:43.which is what people want. In its commercial jungle, does government?
:26:43. > :26:46.At -- where the internet has a role, does government? Particularly early
:26:46. > :26:50.when you look at interest rates for that high street, there are plenty
:26:50. > :26:53.of things that the Government can do to help independent retailers.
:26:53. > :27:01.The Government should at least create a two-tier system of
:27:01. > :27:03.businesses, so we can encourage small and independent shops, the
:27:03. > :27:09.ones that find themselves with their heads just above the surface,
:27:09. > :27:14.that is something that can be done. That is something we should do.
:27:14. > :27:18.joined now by the Conservative MP Jane Ellison, who wised -- used to
:27:18. > :27:23.work for John Lewis. Just to pick up some of those points, isn't it a
:27:23. > :27:28.case of survival of the fittest as far as shops on a high-speed car
:27:28. > :27:33.concerned? Consumers make their choice, and some have to close?
:27:33. > :27:35.are probably right. The reason we invested in Costcutter is that
:27:35. > :27:39.shopping habits are changing and what people are looking for is
:27:39. > :27:43.changing. We have an ageing population that don't necessarily
:27:43. > :27:47.want to go to out-of-town superstores. People want to shop
:27:47. > :27:50.little and often, which reflects the economic situation. Rising fuel
:27:50. > :27:54.prices mean that people don't want to drive to do big shops. That is
:27:54. > :27:58.one of the reasons why community shopping makes absolute sense.
:27:58. > :28:00.are saying that high street should be doing well out of these
:28:00. > :28:05.circumstances because more people are going there and go to out-of-
:28:05. > :28:09.town shopping centres? To pick up at point, the danger is that we
:28:09. > :28:12.look at the high street purely in the sense of retail. If they
:28:12. > :28:16.continue to take that view, the high streets will die. We need to
:28:16. > :28:21.take a wider perspective, thinking about town centres and local
:28:21. > :28:26.community programmes to address things like infrastructure,
:28:26. > :28:30.property and shops. Hospitals, you know, there is a whole wider
:28:30. > :28:36.perspective which I think we need to look at. If they don't, do you
:28:36. > :28:40.see, not the death of a high street, that sounds dramatic, the idea of
:28:40. > :28:47.small independent shops not being able to survive? They will struggle,
:28:47. > :28:50.yes. Jane Ellison, what can the Government do? The biggest problem
:28:51. > :28:54.with businesses around me is the rates, the rent they have to pay on
:28:54. > :28:57.the shop, that is why shops are closing. Is there anything that can
:28:58. > :29:02.be done about that? Business rates and rents are two different issues.
:29:02. > :29:06.I do want to say something about rent, because there was also a role
:29:06. > :29:10.for landlords. I had the same experience as you. The Localism
:29:10. > :29:13.Bill does give an opportunity, for the first time, full council to
:29:13. > :29:21.have more control about what they do with business rates. Will that
:29:21. > :29:24.bring them down? In some cases yes. But it is not just about councils
:29:24. > :29:27.or governments. There is no one single answer to the problems the
:29:27. > :29:31.high-street phases. You are right to say there is evolution going on.
:29:31. > :29:35.Lots of people have to play their part. There has been a huge
:29:35. > :29:40.democratic disconnect between local councils and local shops. Retailers
:29:40. > :29:43.and shops do not vote. Up until now, there has been no relationship
:29:43. > :29:46.between food they pay their business rates to. I think
:29:47. > :29:51.reconnecting that is a good thing. It gives councils some flexibility.
:29:51. > :29:55.But there is more to it than that. Surely a thriving High Street is a
:29:55. > :29:59.good thing for a local council? Absolutely, but until you change
:29:59. > :30:04.the system and the way that rates are collected and retained,
:30:04. > :30:08.councils didn't have a direct interest in that. They do want it
:30:08. > :30:13.to thrive. But in and out of town centre, the council was able to put
:30:13. > :30:16.a large number of jobs on that and can say something began significant.
:30:16. > :30:20.It is more incremental with the high street. Should they cap the
:30:20. > :30:22.growth of out-of-town shopping centres? I know that is one of the
:30:22. > :30:28.recommendations. I think the Government is looking at that. They
:30:28. > :30:32.promised a response since bring. you think they should? They need to
:30:32. > :30:36.look at it, but there is a real danger of thinking that is the
:30:36. > :30:39.answer. It could be part of the answer? Looking at it could be part
:30:39. > :30:42.of the answer. At the end of the day, it is successful because
:30:42. > :30:46.consumers go there. What the Government should not be trying to
:30:46. > :30:49.do is make people do something they don't want to do. Equally, what was
:30:49. > :30:52.said in a film about the level playing field, that is really
:30:52. > :30:56.important and there is a huge role to play for everybody. Landlords as
:30:56. > :30:59.well. I would like to make that point. One of the reasons out of
:30:59. > :31:03.town centres thrive is that they often have a single landlord, with
:31:03. > :31:11.a single vision of the mix of shops they are trying to achieve. We
:31:12. > :31:15.Should the Government get involved? It sounds like the Government is
:31:15. > :31:21.trying to take a back view in sense of allowing people to make their
:31:21. > :31:26.own decisions, but if we want the high streets to jive, if that is
:31:26. > :31:32.the aim -- to survive, if that is the aim, shouldn't they want them
:31:32. > :31:36.to proceed? Absolutely. That is the way to go forward. The point about
:31:36. > :31:41.out-of-town superstores and shopping malls being under one
:31:41. > :31:45.property owner or landlord means they can take decisions and have a
:31:45. > :31:48.long-term vision. Absolutely, for the long term. Whereas, in high
:31:48. > :31:52.streets and town centres, you have a whole raft of different parties
:31:52. > :31:57.and it's difficult to bring them together to have one vision that
:31:57. > :32:01.can take it forward for the next few years. That is a real role for
:32:01. > :32:04.local authorities and all local MPs and councillors and shopkeepers
:32:04. > :32:10.themselves. There is a real opportunity there, what Mary Portas
:32:10. > :32:13.called the town teams. Thank you both very much.
:32:13. > :32:18.From crisis on the high street, to crisis in our primary schools. Up
:32:18. > :32:22.and down the country there are a shortage of places. In fact, in
:32:22. > :32:28.some towns local councils are considering turning empty shops
:32:28. > :32:31.into classrooms. What is to be done? We are having lots of babies.
:32:31. > :32:35.Mainly as a result of immigration and a birth rate that is just
:32:35. > :32:45.generally going up. It means the number of extra school and nursery
:32:45. > :32:48.places we'll need to find by 2020 is 720,000. But, there are about
:32:48. > :32:53.444,000 spare ones across the country, so it's not that bad,
:32:53. > :32:58.right? Well, it is, because the places aren't in the right places.
:32:58. > :33:03.They know that here in Winchester, where the local authority needs to
:33:03. > :33:07.find space for an extra 80 children a year for the next several years
:33:07. > :33:11.to cope with the number of people coming here. It's been a great
:33:12. > :33:14.place for older people, but we are finding lots of older -- younger
:33:14. > :33:17.people have discovered Winchester is better than London and they are
:33:17. > :33:20.moving in with young families, producing more children and
:33:20. > :33:23.therefore more pressure on the schools. Maybe and we are not too
:33:24. > :33:27.sure, maybe there is a drift away from the private sector, so that is
:33:27. > :33:31.all adding to the figures and meaning we are having to look at
:33:31. > :33:35.the upper range of estimates rather than the mid-range of estimates.
:33:35. > :33:39.How they'll cope is the talk of the town. At this school, they are
:33:39. > :33:43.going to concrete over a playing field to build temporary classrooms,
:33:43. > :33:48.which is causing concern at the school gates. For us, that would be
:33:48. > :33:55.a 50% increase in pupil numbers, without any further infrastructure,
:33:55. > :33:59.no increased hall, no increase in staff facilities. We are already
:33:59. > :34:03.under severe pressure, because the building is about 80% of the size
:34:03. > :34:09.it should be for the number on roll. The department for education say
:34:09. > :34:12.they are trying to help by spending extra money, up to �4 billion
:34:12. > :34:15.targeted at particular problem areas. They also say their policy
:34:15. > :34:21.of allowing parents to set up so- called free schools should make a
:34:21. > :34:25.difference too. Although there's no guarantee that will help here in
:34:25. > :34:29.Winchester. I had a look at the spread of free schools, for example,
:34:29. > :34:33.and most are secondary schools. Most of them are in areas where
:34:33. > :34:37.there is not a shortage of places, so there is no matching of need and
:34:37. > :34:41.where the money's been ploughed. Another solution could be to lift
:34:41. > :34:48.the limit on class sizes, currently 30. But that would need a change in
:34:48. > :34:52.the law. It is even less popular with parents. With us now and for
:34:53. > :34:55.the rest of the programme, he's made it, yes, we are joined by the
:34:55. > :35:02.author and educationalist Toby Young, who has apparently walked
:35:02. > :35:06.and cycled and hot footing is from around the corner, Labour MP Lisa
:35:06. > :35:12.Nandy, who is on the Education Select Committee. We'll go straight
:35:12. > :35:16.in there. Toby Young, why is there such a shortage? The reason is two
:35:16. > :35:19.fold. First, we are in the middle of a huge population boom and
:35:19. > :35:23.secondly, the Labour Government didn't spend enough money on
:35:23. > :35:30.primary places. Primary places are funded through what is called
:35:30. > :35:32.basic-need funding and Labour cut it by 26% between 04 and 0. Even
:35:32. > :35:37.though the Office for National Statistics, in 2007, reported that
:35:37. > :35:42.we were experiencing the biggest baby boom in England and Wales for
:35:42. > :35:47.three decades, Labour still cut basic spending up to 2010, so we
:35:47. > :35:51.are reaping the world wind. Lisa Nandy, even I knew we were planning
:35:51. > :35:54.for this boom in schoolchildren. Why didn't Labour do anything about
:35:54. > :35:58.it? We did, because one of the pressures on primary schools across
:35:58. > :36:01.the country is the lack of physical space. When you look at the
:36:01. > :36:06.shortage of primary school places, it's a particular London problem.
:36:06. > :36:11.It exists in other areas, but it's a particular problem in London and
:36:11. > :36:14.Labour brought forward a programme to build primary schools, rebuild
:36:14. > :36:18.them, �7 billion programme. Building schools for the future?
:36:18. > :36:22.this was the primary capital places programme and this was specifically
:36:22. > :36:25.around briemary schools and that was scrapped by -- primary schools
:36:25. > :36:29.and that was scrapped by the coalition when they came into
:36:29. > :36:33.office. While Toby is right and there was a failure of local
:36:33. > :36:40.authorities to plan in some areas, there is also a real pressure on
:36:40. > :36:44.primary school building as well. There is an acceptance there that
:36:44. > :36:48.the planning wasn't there and now we have too many children. Isn't it
:36:48. > :36:51.enough to give local authorities, taking the space issue in hand,
:36:52. > :36:55.just to allow good performing schools to have extra classes? Some
:36:55. > :37:01.of the schools around where I live do that already. That would be the
:37:01. > :37:06.easiest and simplest and fastest way to take on extra children?
:37:06. > :37:13.happening around the country. If you look at how much the present
:37:13. > :37:16.Government spend on basic need in 2011, it was 1.3 billion compared
:37:16. > :37:21.to almost a third of that in the last year that Labour was in office,
:37:21. > :37:24.but free schools can be a very cost effective way. Why? Aren't they
:37:24. > :37:28.more expensive because you can't plan, so you don't have an idea of
:37:28. > :37:32.how many people are going to be taken on. You don't know where they
:37:33. > :37:37.are going to be. We have seen how ineffective the planning system is.
:37:37. > :37:40.We are currently in the middle of this huge crisis, but the reason it
:37:40. > :37:44.can be more effective is partly because it's much more cost
:37:44. > :37:48.effective. The average cost to a local authority of building a new
:37:48. > :37:53.primary was nearly �8 million under Labour. My group, the West London
:37:53. > :37:56.Free School is setting up a primary, we hope, which will hope in
:37:56. > :37:59.Hammersmith and Fulham in 2013 for around one million. Cost effective
:37:59. > :38:02.says Toby. The problem with that is Michael Gove has been very clear
:38:02. > :38:07.that the purpose behind free schools is to provide parents with
:38:07. > :38:10.more choice, so if you set them up in addition to fill places that
:38:10. > :38:14.don't already exist, then you don't provide parents with choice. That
:38:14. > :38:21.is why he's very much focused on improving free school applications
:38:21. > :38:26.so far in areas where there is no shortage of places. He wants good
:38:26. > :38:29.schools to flourish and bad schools to wither and die, and they are his
:38:29. > :38:34.words. He was asked that question if the House of Commons in October
:38:34. > :38:38.when he announced the 79 new free schools that were approved and over
:38:39. > :38:43.80% where in areas where there is acute basic need, so it's not just
:38:43. > :38:48.true what you said. The first lot, 24 free schools, that opened their
:38:48. > :38:53.doors, 15 were in areas where there were no needs for further places.
:38:54. > :39:00.Just hold it there. Don't go anywhere. The Education Secretary
:39:00. > :39:03.has had a busy morning. He's been giching evidence to the education
:39:03. > :39:09.select committee -- giving evidence from the education select you
:39:10. > :39:14.committee and some of the questions were -- Education Select Committee
:39:14. > :39:23.and some were tweeted in from the public. Some questions are inspired
:39:23. > :39:28.by the twitter feed. 5,000-plus wanting to interact with you. We'll
:39:29. > :39:34.go around, each of us, and if you can give us quick answers, that
:39:34. > :39:43.would be great. If good requires pupil performance to exceed the
:39:43. > :39:49.national average and if all schools must be good, how is this possible?
:39:49. > :39:54.By getting better all the time. Thank you. It is possible, is it?
:39:54. > :40:00.It is possible to get better all the time. Were you better at
:40:00. > :40:04.literacy than numeracy? I can't remember. Can you set out the chain
:40:04. > :40:08.of responsibility in academies? depends who the sponsor is. What
:40:08. > :40:12.evidence do you have to indicate that the pupil premium is working?
:40:13. > :40:16.We are gathering evidence and as Alex pointed out, given that it's a
:40:16. > :40:20.relatively new thing, we'll come back to the committee and present
:40:20. > :40:23.all the evidence we have in due course. Why is there not the
:40:23. > :40:29.flexibility to allow summer-born pre-term children to delay their
:40:29. > :40:35.entry to school by a year? That requires a long answer. You can
:40:35. > :40:40.have a little bit longer. We want children to be in school learning
:40:40. > :40:45.as quickly as possible. I very much treasure the King James Bible my
:40:45. > :40:49.gran gave me when I was six. Have you got the - the project you have
:40:49. > :40:53.to have one in every school, have you got it funded and don't you
:40:53. > :41:00.think it can speak for itself and it doesn't need a foreword from
:41:00. > :41:06.you? Yes and yes. Why should there be fewer parent governors on an
:41:06. > :41:13.eabg governing body? There should be fewer overall. Can I ask a
:41:13. > :41:22.favour? You very kindly provided me with some water, will you excuse me
:41:22. > :41:26.for one second and I'll come back and answer questions. I'll be back
:41:26. > :41:29.in a minute. That's hilarious. I have never seen a minister get up
:41:29. > :41:35.in a Select Committee and go to the toilet. By the way, you can't go
:41:35. > :41:39.until after the end of the programme. I'm telling you that.
:41:39. > :41:42.Enoch Powell's advice was don't go to the toilet beforehand on
:41:42. > :41:47.Question Time because if you want to pee you'll do much better.
:41:47. > :41:52.you think he's gone to look at the answers. I was relieved he came
:41:52. > :41:56.back. I know about that. That was Michael Gove in front of the
:41:56. > :42:00.Education Select Committee, where he was being asked questions from
:42:00. > :42:05.the public. We are not ones to miss an opportunity to jump on the
:42:05. > :42:11.bandwagon. We have been asking for questions for tobacco and Lisa,. --
:42:11. > :42:16.Toby and Lisa. Are you ready? Pencil or pen in your hand. This is
:42:16. > :42:21.how much do you personally make out of the free school adventure or is
:42:21. > :42:25.it pure altruism on your part? West London Free School is run by a
:42:25. > :42:29.charity. None of us, none of the governors are paid everything. The
:42:29. > :42:32.only money I've made out of becoming involved is by being
:42:32. > :42:36.invited to appear on programmes like this. I haven't negotiated my
:42:36. > :42:41.sum, but I'm hoping to get a mug. wouldn't hold out. This is the
:42:41. > :42:45.negotiation for the mug. They've never given me a mug. I won't say
:42:45. > :42:49.anything about that. If we give one to Toby we'll give one to you. Are
:42:49. > :42:53.you for or against profit-making schools? This is the ideal from
:42:53. > :42:58.countries like Sweden, give us your answer? I don't have a dogmatic
:42:58. > :43:03.answer. I think the crucial thing is to use whichever providers can
:43:03. > :43:06.deliver the best education and get the best value for money and in
:43:06. > :43:09.Sweden the two largest commercial trends are the first and second
:43:09. > :43:14.most successful providers of school. That sounds like you would be in
:43:14. > :43:18.favour. Even though of course the coalition government said no to it.
:43:18. > :43:24.They haven't said no to out- sourcing the operation of free
:43:24. > :43:29.schools to full-profit companies or char ris. -- charities. You have
:43:29. > :43:33.the option and it is very difficult because of the EU procurement rules.
:43:33. > :43:36.We are not elected to get involved with that. I think every penny that
:43:36. > :43:39.is made through running a school operation should go back into the
:43:39. > :43:43.education for children. From Ronnie, is there anything that will
:43:44. > :43:47.convince you that free schools were a bad idea in let's say in a few
:43:47. > :43:51.years' time the exam results are down and any other research points
:43:51. > :43:58.to it perhaps not having reached your high expectations, would that
:43:58. > :44:03.make you question the whole ethos? I know you are not going to say
:44:03. > :44:07.about bad results. One of the great beauties is that this enables
:44:07. > :44:11.different groups to try out different things and in that way,
:44:11. > :44:14.all these experiments and test beds we can find out what works and what
:44:14. > :44:20.doesn't, discard what doesn't and duplicate what does. In that way
:44:20. > :44:24.we'll drive up standards. You would go for good results. You would be
:44:24. > :44:31.going for standard results? experiment that we are conducting
:44:31. > :44:38.is trying to deliver a grammar school curriculum, just a core of
:44:38. > :44:41.academic subjects complimented by art, music, drama and sport. We are
:44:41. > :44:45.trying to deliver that to a genuinely mixed comprehensive group
:44:45. > :44:50.of children and if we can succeed in getting better results I hope it
:44:50. > :44:54.will be duplicated around the country. Lisa, if the standards and
:44:54. > :44:58.results are impressive, will it make Labour look again at the idea
:44:58. > :45:02.of backing and certainly supporting free schools? Yes. I think you get
:45:02. > :45:05.good standards in every school. The other thing you have to look at is
:45:05. > :45:09.what happens to those children not in that school, who may not be
:45:09. > :45:13.subject today the same help and resources, but certainly if the
:45:13. > :45:16.evidence bears out that free schools are a good thing, I think
:45:16. > :45:19.that there is nobody who would say that school should be closed down.
:45:19. > :45:23.The difficulty you have is that Michael Gove has pushed through
:45:23. > :45:26.both the free schools and the academies programme very quickly.
:45:26. > :45:30.The bill in which it is based went through the Commons in just a
:45:30. > :45:34.matter of weeks under the powers normally reserved for terrorist
:45:34. > :45:37.legislation and the difficulty with this is the phrase that Toby used.
:45:37. > :45:45.This is an experiment. It's with children's lives and where children
:45:45. > :45:49.are concerned that is not good If a child has an alternative
:45:49. > :45:52.between being stuck in a school that has failed generations of
:45:52. > :45:58.children or going to one that was untested but might produce better
:45:58. > :46:02.results, why wouldn't that be a word experiment? I don't think the
:46:02. > :46:09.answer is necessary to set up a new school, it is to improve the
:46:09. > :46:12.existing one. This is a tricky one, this came from Alex, are you and
:46:12. > :46:20.Heston Blumenthal actually the same person? Have you got time for a
:46:20. > :46:26.quick anecdote? I was standing in a pub and a girl came up to me and
:46:26. > :46:30.asked if she could have a picture. Just as a joke I said, do you
:46:30. > :46:33.realise I am not Heston Blumenthal? They said they weren't going to
:46:33. > :46:38.bother with the picture. Are you going to last me the same question?
:46:38. > :46:44.No. The question for the quiz was which of these qualifications is
:46:44. > :46:51.currently worth the equivalent of four GCSEs in school league tables?
:46:51. > :46:56.Is it a Level 2 Diploma in fish husbandry, nail technology, horse
:46:56. > :47:02.care or travel and tourism? Travel and tourism. I'd quite like it to
:47:02. > :47:07.the horse care. It is! You were wrong. You left out one of the
:47:07. > :47:11.finer vocational qualifications introduced by Labour, a level two
:47:11. > :47:17.BTEC in personal effectiveness. Which, amongst other things, has a
:47:17. > :47:20.module in how to claim benefits. Not exactly aspirational! I think
:47:20. > :47:24.financial skills should be taught. Are you saying that vocational
:47:24. > :47:28.qualifications should not be at the level GCSEs? They should, but you
:47:28. > :47:32.have to distinguish between the Mickey Mouse subject you have just
:47:32. > :47:37.described, there were over 3000 vocational qualifications. The ones
:47:37. > :47:40.that are recognised will be reduced to 125. The notion that
:47:40. > :47:45.qualifications and things like hair and beauty, travel and tourism,
:47:45. > :47:50.that they are as valuable as a GCSE in history, science, it is just
:47:50. > :47:55.nonsense. Do you agree? Yes, but the question for Michael Gove is
:47:55. > :47:59.why he isn't taking steps to equalise the status of academic and
:47:59. > :48:04.vocational qualifications. Labour commissioned the Tomlinson report,
:48:04. > :48:09.which recommended one diploma way you could do academic or vocational,
:48:09. > :48:14.or a mix of both, and it would give them equal status. I wish we had
:48:14. > :48:17.implemented that. Michael Gove has no solution to this disparity,
:48:17. > :48:22.except for rubbishing qualifications which, to a lot of
:48:22. > :48:25.young people across the country, mean an awful lot.
:48:25. > :48:31.In December, David Cameron found himself in a minority of one when
:48:32. > :48:35.he said 'non' to plans to a new European treaty setting fiscal
:48:35. > :48:42.rules and harmonising budgets. It must have been a novelty to be
:48:42. > :48:46.joined by the Czech President, Vaclav Klaus. But what is it that
:48:46. > :48:50.Britain is staying out of? 27 members have signed up to the
:48:50. > :48:56.fiscal compact. Come -- countries have to balance budgets or keep
:48:56. > :48:58.structural deficits below 0.5% of GDP. Failure to meet the rule will
:48:58. > :49:05.trigger an automatic correction mechanism and the possibility of
:49:05. > :49:09.fines of up to 0.1% of GDP. Potentially, billions of euros. The
:49:09. > :49:12.new pact will be enforced the existing EU institutions, despite
:49:12. > :49:18.David Cameron saying only a few weeks ago that using them would be
:49:18. > :49:21.wrong. The hope is that it will restore confidence in the future of
:49:21. > :49:26.the eurozone and prevent another debt crisis. Whether it has the
:49:26. > :49:30.desired effect remains to be seen. I am joined from Brussels by Martin
:49:30. > :49:35.Callanan, the Conservative leader in the European Parliament. Do you
:49:35. > :49:40.feel let down by David Cameron over this issue of blocking the use of
:49:40. > :49:43.European Union institutions by the new group? No, I think the Prime
:49:43. > :49:47.Minister was being pragmatic. He was faced with two fundamental
:49:47. > :49:51.problems. The first one is that we are in a coalition with the Liberal
:49:51. > :49:54.Democrats and, as we know, they are keen to sign up to virtually
:49:55. > :49:58.everything that Europe produces. The second problem is that in order
:49:58. > :50:02.to stop this he would have to take legal action. He would have to do
:50:02. > :50:05.that through the European Court of Justice. He would have to ask the
:50:05. > :50:09.Court of Justice to rule on whether it itself should have the power to
:50:09. > :50:13.do this. It is complicated legally and it could take years. He is
:50:13. > :50:16.reserving his position. If there are attempts to encroach on the
:50:16. > :50:21.single market or anything that affects British interests in the
:50:21. > :50:27.future, that is an option. Why was there so much cheering by Tory
:50:27. > :50:32.backbenchers at the time that this was some great hurrah? That wasn't
:50:32. > :50:35.the only subject of the veto. What he did, and has still done, has
:50:35. > :50:39.prevented a whole new section of the treaty being established, which
:50:39. > :50:43.would have the risk of caucusing, eurozone members voting together
:50:43. > :50:48.within the eurozone institutions and run the risk of damaging
:50:48. > :50:52.Britain's interests in the single market. This treaty is outside of
:50:52. > :50:56.the EU structures completely. The veto was effective, in that respect.
:50:56. > :51:00.In a sense, if you look back at some of the quotes, was there
:51:00. > :51:04.anything explicit in what David Cameron said after the veto? That
:51:04. > :51:09.he was actually going to say that those institutions are could be
:51:09. > :51:13.used to enforce that fiscal deal? think there was a number of
:51:13. > :51:17.statements that lead people to imply that was being said.
:51:17. > :51:20.Ultimately, it was presented as a veto. There was no treaty on the
:51:20. > :51:24.table at that stage. It was a political agreement. There was no
:51:24. > :51:29.detail to be talked about. He made it very clear that he would not be
:51:29. > :51:34.bound by it and Britain was not going to accept it. I would not
:51:34. > :51:37.just assume it is only the Czechs that would be against this. Other
:51:37. > :51:44.countries have problems with it. Sweden have said they will sign it
:51:44. > :51:48.as low as they are not bound by any of the conditions within it. A
:51:48. > :51:51.number of member states will have to have a referendum or approval in
:51:51. > :51:55.Parliament. I think a list of countries that don't approve will
:51:55. > :51:58.be greater by the time we get to ratification. The Liberal Democrats
:51:58. > :52:02.were right, for practical reasons and on an issue of policy and
:52:02. > :52:07.principle, it was the right thing to do? David Cameron's position now
:52:07. > :52:11.is the right way to go? The Liberal Democrat position is usually that
:52:11. > :52:16.whatever is put in front of Britain, we have to sign it because we have
:52:17. > :52:21.to be seen as good Europeans. David Cameron took exactly the right
:52:21. > :52:24.position. He was initially backed by Nick Clegg, it was a position
:52:25. > :52:27.agreed in advance by him. It was only afterwards that he started
:52:27. > :52:32.getting lobbying by his own backbenchers and changed his
:52:32. > :52:36.position. David Cameron is standing up for the interests of the UK.
:52:36. > :52:39.He's taking a hard-headed, pragmatic decision about what is in
:52:39. > :52:43.the UK interests. It's nice to have a Prime Minister like that, after
:52:43. > :52:45.years of Labour role where they would also sign up to pretty much
:52:45. > :52:50.anything. There has been a lot of debate
:52:50. > :52:54.about what was expected from Euro- sceptics. That somehow when David
:52:54. > :52:58.Cameron came back before Christmas, having vetoed signing up to this
:52:58. > :53:01.treaty and then saying that he would not allow the new fiscal deal
:53:01. > :53:06.to be using institutions of the European Union, that is what a
:53:06. > :53:10.great success, this was David Cameron showing his strength. Who
:53:10. > :53:15.misunderstood what? Did the Euro- sceptics get it wrong and try to
:53:15. > :53:20.read more into it, or has David Cameron duped them? The reason
:53:20. > :53:25.Euro-sceptics, and I count myself as one, were so delighted by David
:53:25. > :53:28.Cameron using the veto, was because it signalled to our European
:53:28. > :53:33.neighbours that we are not in favour of a shift away from what
:53:33. > :53:36.the European Union is at the moment to a much more federalist situation,
:53:36. > :53:39.a United States of Europe, if you like. I don't think that has
:53:39. > :53:43.changed. The reason people like me are getting too worked up about
:53:43. > :53:47.what happened yesterday is that there is a very good chance that
:53:47. > :53:51.this trip he will never actually be ratified. It is due to decided its
:53:51. > :53:54.present form in March. Even Sarkozy has said he will not sign it in
:53:54. > :54:00.March because of the upcoming French presidential election. His
:54:00. > :54:05.opponent might not either. Francois Hollande, who has a commanding lead
:54:05. > :54:08.in the polls, in all likely the next President of France, he says
:54:08. > :54:12.he wants to renegotiate it. There are problems in Sweden and
:54:12. > :54:17.Czechoslovakia. It seems to me that it is unlikely this treaty will
:54:17. > :54:23.ever be in force. Why get in an argument about the means in which
:54:24. > :54:27.it would be enforced? If 25 of the 27 EU member states are in favour
:54:27. > :54:31.of this dramatic sea-change towards a much more federalist United
:54:31. > :54:34.States of Europe, that will bring forward the moment at which we
:54:34. > :54:38.really need to decide whether we want to be part of the United
:54:38. > :54:42.States of Europe or if we want to have a referendum.
:54:42. > :54:47.Just time to explore the burning question of the day. Should we be
:54:47. > :54:50.eating more ugly vegetables? You might scoff, but one MP is so angry
:54:50. > :54:52.about the Maddox that it is challenged vegetables we throw away
:54:52. > :54:56.that she wants to do something about it. In about that we will
:54:56. > :55:03.talk to the lady in question. First, let's see what the public think.
:55:03. > :55:11.What do you think this is? Something you smoke? Some vegetable
:55:11. > :55:19.you cook? How I'd never seen it. don't know. A carrot? Parsnip, yes.
:55:19. > :55:23.Not a parsnip. It is a vegetable. Potato? It's not! It is! It is a
:55:23. > :55:31.beetroot. Beetroot? Yes. Would you buy a beetroot that looked like
:55:31. > :55:36.that? No. I don't know. Would you buy one that looked like that?
:55:36. > :55:40.not sure. Possibly not. I think I would, if I was going around and
:55:40. > :55:45.knew what I was buying. Does it matter what food looks like to you?
:55:45. > :55:48.It does help, I hate it covered in cellophane and everything. I like
:55:48. > :55:55.it to look fresh. Does it matter to you that what a vegetable looks
:55:55. > :55:59.like? Not really. After you have eaten it, it will not be much more
:55:59. > :56:05.than that, when it? A parsnip will stop would you buy something that
:56:05. > :56:10.looked like that? Maybe. It is too small for me. I prefer something
:56:10. > :56:16.bigger. It doesn't matter to you that it doesn't look nice?
:56:16. > :56:24.shape doesn't matter, just the size! De Laura Sandys is with us
:56:24. > :56:28.now, as his cookery writer Stevie Parle. People just don't want to
:56:28. > :56:33.eat ugly vegetables. I think they have been conditioned over many
:56:34. > :56:38.years. I think ugly food must be eaten. But there is a bigger issue
:56:38. > :56:42.about food prices rising. Over the next 20 years we are going to see a
:56:42. > :56:47.50% increase in food prices. We waste about �50 a month, each
:56:47. > :56:51.household. It cannot go on. There is really good food out there that
:56:51. > :56:59.is being sent off to a fruit juice, processed food, which is delicious
:56:59. > :57:04.to eat. Let's look at this tray. glorious selection! As a chef, do
:57:04. > :57:13.you know what all of these are? course. We have a little test. What
:57:13. > :57:19.is that? Beetroot. I cheated. I had to cut it open, just to see. Just
:57:19. > :57:23.to check. That one? That is also a beetroot. You would use any of
:57:23. > :57:28.these IND your cooking, but you're not serving them like that to the
:57:28. > :57:33.customer? I don't think I would even mind serving them like that.
:57:33. > :57:40.They are really quite beautiful. That is beautiful? Look at back-
:57:40. > :57:47.pass dead. A It's all right! It's all right? I am glad that Lisa is
:57:47. > :57:52.not here, this is what would be served in one of those profit-
:57:52. > :57:57.making Swedish schools! I've got a feeling that these days eating this
:57:57. > :58:05.kind of presentable vegetable is trendy. Farmers' markets, chefs,
:58:05. > :58:09.it's so much of the market? Farmers' markets, foraging, I think
:58:09. > :58:13.as a chef your priority is different. You're looking for taste.
:58:13. > :58:17.You're looking for something that looks like you didn't buy it in the
:58:18. > :58:22.supermarket. So, you are saying it is the fault of supermarkets? They
:58:22. > :58:26.have everything looking the same? It's right through the supply chain.
:58:26. > :58:30.Billions of pounds are wasted in food. We got to stop this. Value
:58:30. > :58:37.food, food has been too cheap and now we have to value it in a
:58:37. > :58:45.different way. We mustn't cut these beautiful, Oakley fruit and
:58:45. > :58:49.vegetables out. You can have it. Are you feeling a bit hungry?