01/02/2012

:00:42. > :00:46.Good morning, folks, welcome to the Daily Politics. Today's top story,

:00:46. > :00:50.you guessed it, stripped of his knighthood, but he was not the only

:00:50. > :00:54.man -- only guilty man, was he the victim of political opportunism? A

:00:54. > :00:58.7th defeat in the Lords for the welfare reform plans, will the

:00:58. > :01:01.Government stick to its guns at the legislation returns to the Commons?

:01:02. > :01:05.More trouble for the government over its plan for the NHS in

:01:05. > :01:08.England, ministers are publishing amendments to the Bill, a last-

:01:08. > :01:11.ditch attempt to win over its critics.

:01:11. > :01:14.Back in a day, you could murder and pillage and still keep your

:01:14. > :01:23.knighthood, though you might lose your head. We will look at the

:01:23. > :01:26.naughty knights of old. All at coming up in the next 90

:01:26. > :01:31.minutes of public service broadcasting at its finest! Its

:01:31. > :01:35.finest, I say that because of one of our guests. We will bring you

:01:35. > :01:39.live and uninterrupted Prime Minister's Questions at midday, and

:01:39. > :01:47.other public service. Joining us for the duration, Education

:01:47. > :01:53.Secretary Mr Stephen Twigg, he does not risk losing any titles! But the

:01:53. > :02:00.Honourable, yes, the Honourable, son of the life peer, Ed Vaizey.

:02:00. > :02:04.Just you be careful, you could lose that! Threats already! He is the

:02:04. > :02:10.media minister, we have to be nice to him. Sir Fred Goodwin is no more,

:02:10. > :02:14.it is just now main that plain Mr Fred Goodwin, but the decision to

:02:14. > :02:18.strip him has not met with universal approval. Neither from

:02:18. > :02:24.the City of politicians. We are joined by the Conservative MP for

:02:24. > :02:28.cities and Westminster, Mark Field. Was it the right decision? I think

:02:28. > :02:32.the night bird is a bit of a sideshow. The most important they

:02:32. > :02:38.are the rewards for failure. He was given it in 2004, and there was not

:02:38. > :02:43.a murmur of disapproval. By the time he got his penchant in 2009,

:02:43. > :02:50.we were aware that he had been overlooking a vast bank. -- pension.

:02:50. > :02:53.It is a much bigger question. I am slightly concerned that this witch-

:02:54. > :02:57.hunt against Fred Goodwin, he has not got too many friends, and most

:02:57. > :03:01.people come across him in business think he is having his comeuppance,

:03:01. > :03:05.but by the same token there was no question of illegality or

:03:05. > :03:08.criminality in what he did. He was monumentally incompetent, but to

:03:08. > :03:11.have a knighthood taken away on that basis seems to be said in a

:03:11. > :03:16.difficult precedent. We are a country that wants to be open for

:03:16. > :03:20.business. What message does it send, do you think? I think the genie is

:03:20. > :03:24.out of the bottle, and we will see in the next few months a number of

:03:24. > :03:29.other people in the corporate world suddenly coming under the kind of

:03:29. > :03:34.scrutiny that has been the case for Stephen Hester last weekend and

:03:34. > :03:41.Fred Goodwin over the last 24 hours, but I think that is quite dangerous.

:03:41. > :03:49.We are an open and outward-looking mercantile nation. This is the

:03:49. > :03:56.message is getting across that we are not open for business, that is

:03:56. > :04:00.bad news for this country. The Government was wrong to buy so much

:04:00. > :04:10.rhetoric and one man and one man only? As I say, this will be a

:04:10. > :04:18.

:04:18. > :04:21.precedent that will be used for There was a campaign started by the

:04:21. > :04:27.Daily Mail that Fred Goodwin should be stripped Arcos night heard. It

:04:27. > :04:30.is unusual that this campaign did not have as much leverage in 2009.

:04:31. > :04:40.-- should be stripped of his knighthood. The government handed

:04:41. > :04:55.

:04:55. > :05:01.out a very generous pension package It is easy for the political class

:05:01. > :05:05.to gang up on the city and bankers will our public enemy number one at

:05:05. > :05:08.the moment, but we have got to get our own house in order. We have a

:05:08. > :05:12.number of people in the House of Lords to have a lifelong seat in

:05:12. > :05:15.the legislature will have a time in prison over the expenses scandal.

:05:15. > :05:20.If we want to reserve the sanctity of the honours system, I hope David

:05:20. > :05:25.Cameron would get the four budget committee to look at the case of

:05:25. > :05:31.certain lords who are expense hurdlers who still have their

:05:31. > :05:35.honours very nicely intact. I am catching the whiff of a witch

:05:35. > :05:43.and beginning to build up! And we're just the kind of people to

:05:43. > :05:49.stoke the fires. A quiz, Stephen Twigg, who presented with a gift

:05:49. > :05:54.over Christmas 2007? Fred Goodwin. Yes, one year later, he presented

:05:54. > :05:57.them with the cards at RBS. Who said in 2004, you are the wealth

:05:58. > :06:04.creators, the women and men who can make our nation more successful,

:06:04. > :06:11.more prosperous, and let me thank Sir Fred Goodwin and RBS? I will

:06:11. > :06:14.hazard a guess, Gordon Brown. Correct! And I think you are going

:06:14. > :06:19.for the hat-trick here, who gave Fred Goodwin the Night Herd?

:06:19. > :06:26.think it might have been Tony Blair, the Queen! Well, it was the Queen

:06:26. > :06:29.he did it at the end. I think Alex Salmond was a supporter. We got it

:06:29. > :06:35.wrong, and Ed Miliband has been clear we should not have done what

:06:35. > :06:38.we did. I suggest to you, Minister, people do not care whether Fred

:06:38. > :06:43.Goodwin keeps his knighthood or not, but they want to see some of their

:06:43. > :06:47.money back and the banking system being put on a better basis than

:06:47. > :06:52.the Bank does not getting showed loads of money from dodgy bonuses.

:06:52. > :06:57.-- and bankers. He was an independent committee that took the

:06:57. > :07:02.decision, but it should not be a distraction. I do not think -- we

:07:02. > :07:06.should think that somehow we have moved on by removing his knighthood.

:07:06. > :07:10.We will move on when we have got responsible capitalism, when we get

:07:10. > :07:14.RBS back on its feet, when we put in place systems to try to ensure

:07:15. > :07:17.we do not have the kind of banking crisis that has put this in so much

:07:17. > :07:23.trouble. It is important to focus on the future and the changes we

:07:23. > :07:28.need to make. Are we not meant to think that the Prime Minister leant

:07:28. > :07:31.on this committee? It is very convenient, at a time when the

:07:31. > :07:35.government got itself into a complete Horlicks over Stephen as

:07:35. > :07:41.the's bonus, to have this sideshow. The Roman emperors were brilliant

:07:41. > :07:47.at this, they called it bread and circuses. The Prime Minister made

:07:47. > :07:51.his view clear, as has the leader of the opposition, most of the

:07:51. > :07:54.political classes. It is important there is public confidence in the

:07:54. > :07:58.system, and there was a sense that the public were angry about this.

:07:58. > :08:03.It is symbolic, not the main show in town where it came to improving

:08:03. > :08:08.the banking sector. Fred Goodwin is a finished character, finished, a

:08:08. > :08:13.pariah now. People throw stones at his house. He has got to keep his

:08:13. > :08:17.whereabouts secret now and so on. So why just pick on him? Dennis

:08:17. > :08:24.Stephenson, Lord Stephenson of HBOS, another bank that went down the

:08:24. > :08:30.Swanee. Why is he still a lot? Your Labour government gave Alan

:08:30. > :08:33.Greenspan a night heard. He presided over a system which

:08:33. > :08:38.supported derivatives, one of the things that brought the financial

:08:38. > :08:42.system to its knees. Do we go back to calling him Mr Alan Greenspan?

:08:42. > :08:45.There is a difficulty if we open up the floodgates. There is a

:08:45. > :08:48.particular set of circumstances following the FSA report which made

:08:48. > :08:51.this a proper decision. There may be some others which need to be

:08:51. > :08:56.looked at, but we do not get into a situation where dozens of people

:08:56. > :09:00.are having their honours removed. So you just want to be on him

:09:00. > :09:05.because he is a useful one to problem a cattle prod. The scale of

:09:05. > :09:09.what happened with RBS does justify this decision, but this is symbolic.

:09:09. > :09:13.We need to move on to the much bigger and more challenging

:09:13. > :09:17.territory are responsible capitalism, the phrase that Ed used.

:09:17. > :09:21.Hold on, Hector Sants, who appeared before a Commons select committee

:09:21. > :09:26.was to the executive of the FSA at a time when the ABN AMRO deal was

:09:26. > :09:32.allowed to go ahead. Indeed, he was part of the system that the Brood

:09:32. > :09:36.RBS upping its leverage to be able to buy ABN AMRO. -- that approved.

:09:36. > :09:45.He has apologised and is set to become deputy governor of the Bank

:09:45. > :09:49.of England. How does that work?! that a reward?! That is even worse!

:09:49. > :09:55.He did get a going-over, I read the sketches of the Treasury Select

:09:55. > :09:59.Committee. How I do think it is important... You can play a parlour

:09:59. > :10:01.game, this is in itself is a parlour game, when the government

:10:01. > :10:06.put up categories of people who should be stripped of their honours.

:10:06. > :10:10.I would draw a line under it, I hope the forfeiture committee, I

:10:10. > :10:13.hope these are exceptions rather than the rule, and I think, as

:10:13. > :10:18.Stephen said, Fred Goodwin was a particular figure who took a

:10:18. > :10:21.successful bank and ended up having to be bailed out to the tune of �45

:10:21. > :10:25.billion by the taxpayer. The other key point is that he got his

:10:25. > :10:28.knighthood for services to banking. It might have been a different

:10:28. > :10:34.question it he got it for philanthropy. Which Labour claimed

:10:34. > :10:38.it was! If you go back to the pub quiz, sitting in the pub say, what

:10:38. > :10:44.did you get it for, services to banking, I destroyed RBS, why have

:10:44. > :10:48.you still got it? The First Minister says that although he

:10:48. > :10:51.agrees that the decision, he wants to know of others involved in the

:10:51. > :10:56.financial collapse will have their honours reassessed, too. Mr Salmond

:10:56. > :11:01.has also said that he would be, in retrospect, do things differently,

:11:01. > :11:03.when asked about his support for Fred Goodwin. We have all said that.

:11:03. > :11:09.Everyone has a different view in hindsight.

:11:09. > :11:16.There was a fundamental policy, in 2005, in keeping with our quiz, who

:11:16. > :11:19.said the following? The new model we propose is quite different, any

:11:20. > :11:24.risk based approach, there is no inspection without justification.

:11:24. > :11:29.No form-filling without justification, no information

:11:29. > :11:34.requirements without justification, describing the new rules for the

:11:34. > :11:38.City, who said that? Probably Ed Balls. No, Gordon Brown.

:11:38. > :11:42.acknowledged that we got regulation wrong. It has been acknowledged by

:11:42. > :11:47.Ed Miliband and Ed Balls. Let's move on to how we can get it right

:11:47. > :11:54.in the future. If Why have you tried to drop Ed Balls in it?!

:11:54. > :11:59.Terrible! By had to get one wrong! Are you looking at me? Two years

:11:59. > :12:06.after, Gordon Brown said, he was complaining about the burdens and

:12:06. > :12:10.City regulations? I don't know. George Osborne. I would have got

:12:10. > :12:14.that one right. You are all in this together. We got that wrong on

:12:14. > :12:18.regulation, we acknowledge that, but last September Ed Miliband was

:12:18. > :12:22.criticised when he moved on to this territory and talked about the need

:12:22. > :12:26.for responsible capitalism. I think it is a real achievement of Ed

:12:26. > :12:32.Miliband's leadership that is a focus of public policy debate.

:12:33. > :12:36.Shall we leave it there? No, gone, do another question!

:12:36. > :12:39.MPs will be voting on the Welfare Reform Bill after Prime Minister's

:12:39. > :12:44.questions following a series of defeats inflicted by the House of

:12:45. > :12:49.Lords. Iain Duncan Smith and David Cameron are promising to fight all

:12:49. > :12:53.the way for the changes, including a �26,000 cap on benefits. They

:12:53. > :12:57.think it is popular, so they quite like the cash with the laws. The

:12:57. > :13:00.vote could be close depending on how many Lib Dem MPs decide to

:13:00. > :13:04.rebel. Andrew, for years politicians on

:13:04. > :13:09.all sides have talked to voters about cutting back on the welfare

:13:09. > :13:13.bill, which last year cost the taxpayer �192 billion. This

:13:13. > :13:19.Government has planned a wide- ranging set of reforms, including

:13:19. > :13:21.the eye-catching and popular cap on a household's benefit at �26,000.

:13:21. > :13:26.But the Government's plans for reform have suffered a total of

:13:26. > :13:29.seven defeats in the House of Lords, most recently last night. Labour

:13:29. > :13:33.peers helped inflict those defeats, but the party officially supports

:13:33. > :13:37.the benefits can in principle. With the government refusing to back

:13:37. > :13:41.down, Labour now says the cap should be set locally, higher in

:13:41. > :13:46.some areas, lower end others. The Welfare Reform Bill returns to the

:13:46. > :13:50.Commons today, where Liberal Democrat MPs will have to decide

:13:50. > :13:53.whether to rebel, as many of their colleagues did in the Lords. This

:13:53. > :13:57.morning the government appears to have offered concessions, including

:13:57. > :14:03.money to help families affected by the cap. But will it be enough?

:14:03. > :14:07.We can find out, we enjoyed by Liberal Democrat per year Mike

:14:07. > :14:12.German. Ed Vaizey, there is some transitional relief to describe

:14:13. > :14:19.this. We have any idea how much that will cost? If well, the point

:14:19. > :14:24.about welfare reform is that they will make savings on something like

:14:24. > :14:29.�1.5 billion a year. The BL package that we will be debating in the

:14:29. > :14:33.House of Commons is about 1.5 billion. -- the whole package. They

:14:33. > :14:37.are actually quite small savings when you consider the huge size of

:14:37. > :14:40.the welfare bill. It is very difficult. We have made these

:14:40. > :14:44.reforms, and I fully support them, but they have caused controversy,

:14:44. > :14:49.and we have been defeated in House of Lords. It shows the massive

:14:49. > :14:52.scale of the task when you try to reform welfare. You do it

:14:52. > :14:57.incrementally, shave a bit off, and opinion are trying to reduce the

:14:57. > :15:00.rate of growth of the welfare bill, but even when you take these

:15:00. > :15:05.measures, they caused a stormy debate. I think we have got a long

:15:05. > :15:09.way to go in reforming welfare, but we have got to have a consensus

:15:09. > :15:12.that it is getting out of control. I mean, Liam Byrne, the Labour

:15:13. > :15:22.spokesman, wrote an article saying that Beveridge would look on these

:15:23. > :15:28.

:15:28. > :15:35.It's your policy now to have a different cap depending on where

:15:35. > :15:38.you live s that correct? Yes. would you contemplate a higher cap

:15:38. > :15:44.for for London? London housing costs is probably the key feature

:15:44. > :15:47.of this debate. I think the like hihood is if you had ditch local

:15:47. > :15:50.caps in the most expensive parts of the country the caps would be

:15:50. > :15:54.higher than in other parts of the country. If I'm on average wage, in

:15:54. > :15:57.other words, people going out to work can't afford to live in

:15:57. > :16:00.central London, why should people on welfare be able to live in

:16:00. > :16:04.central London? The key thing here is the Government's trying to save

:16:04. > :16:08.money. Ed has said that. What is the answer to the question? I am

:16:08. > :16:11.starting to answer the question. What the department of local

:16:11. > :16:15.Government have said is there might be a net cost from introducing a

:16:15. > :16:17.single benefit cap for the whole country, because of the costs of

:16:17. > :16:20.temporary accommodation if people are forced out of their homes. If

:16:20. > :16:24.we are trying to save money, and we support trying to save money, we

:16:24. > :16:27.have got to do this in an intelligent way, that's why our

:16:27. > :16:32.amendment today is saying it should be an independent body that decides

:16:32. > :16:35.on these local caps as to what they should be. But Labour would

:16:35. > :16:40.contemplate or tolerate a system where maybe you had, let's pluck

:16:40. > :16:46.figures out of the air, �32,000 cap for London, which would mean you

:16:46. > :16:52.would have to earn �45,000 to take home �32,000, that's a big salary,

:16:52. > :16:56.even by London terms, but maybe a �16,000 cap in Liverpool? You would

:16:56. > :16:59.be happy with regional differences like that? There's nothing new

:16:59. > :17:03.about regional and indeed local differences in terms of housing

:17:03. > :17:06.benefits. We have local housing allowances in the system at the

:17:06. > :17:10.moment. We are responding to what we stheu a rushed reform from the

:17:10. > :17:13.Government which could have some appalling consequences in terms of

:17:13. > :17:16.homelessness and more families moving into temporary accommodation,

:17:16. > :17:20.that's why we are making this proposal. Give than housing costs

:17:20. > :17:25.are the thing that vary most from region to region, Ed Vaizey, what

:17:25. > :17:29.would be wrong with a regional based cap? Into it would add a

:17:29. > :17:34.layer of complexity. It's still I think a generous cap, you can still

:17:34. > :17:38.live in London on �1,200 a month. So I think the cap is relatively

:17:38. > :17:41.generous and there are lots of important exceptions for different

:17:41. > :17:44.categories of people, so it's a very straightforward and simple

:17:44. > :17:48.reform. I hear what Stephen says, it's interesting the the unions

:17:48. > :17:52.have always opposed things like regional pay. There hasn't been an

:17:52. > :17:55.- the Labour Party to recognise there are Reg regional differences

:17:55. > :18:01.in living standards, if you start a debate about how we take into

:18:01. > :18:05.account... The principle of London public sector workers earning more

:18:05. > :18:12.has been established in the system and accepted. Let me bring in Mike

:18:12. > :18:15.German. Has Government done enough to asaupblg rebels? On the cap it

:18:15. > :18:18.certainly has. We will see a figure which is considerable about the

:18:18. > :18:21.amount of money that's going to be put in to help people who are in

:18:21. > :18:25.the most difficult circumstances, because clearly they're going to be

:18:25. > :18:28.people trapped by circumstances beyond their control. This is the

:18:28. > :18:31.transitional arrangement. First of all, there's money and I understand

:18:31. > :18:34.it's a substantial amount of money, we are not talking about just five

:18:34. > :18:40.or six million, talking about tens, maybe hundreds of millions of

:18:40. > :18:44.pounds over a period of time. on, the cap itself only says �275

:18:44. > :18:49.million, why would you end up spending more? Over a period of

:18:49. > :18:54.time. Shoug the transition going to be? The transition is as people

:18:54. > :18:58.need to to adjust. There's one other group of people, people lose

:18:58. > :19:02.their jobs who will face a period of time to readjust, we don't want

:19:02. > :19:05.to see them immediately trapped by the cap, give them time to get back

:19:05. > :19:08.into work and the Government has to give them nine months, which is

:19:08. > :19:11.beyond what the average is for people to get back into jobs. There

:19:11. > :19:14.are things that have been done and the Government has done enough I

:19:14. > :19:18.think for my colleagues to be able to support this as it goes through

:19:18. > :19:23.tonight. Sounds like it's hardly worth the candle. It's going to

:19:23. > :19:30.take years and cost hundreds of millions when you are only going to

:19:30. > :19:34.save 275. You have to start somewhere. By spending more?! He's

:19:34. > :19:38.just managed to water it down. These are relatively modest reforms,

:19:38. > :19:42.but they are long overdue and again if you have - to keep coming back

:19:42. > :19:49.to the principle, which all of us have to decide based on our income

:19:49. > :19:53.where we live, how we will live. The great prize in all this is the

:19:53. > :19:58.bit of the Bill going through which allows people to earn more money

:19:58. > :20:02.and not to lose all their benefits, which is stop people from going

:20:02. > :20:05.back to work. It's actually a major reform and we got the most complex

:20:05. > :20:09.benefits structure in the whole of the western world and we are trying

:20:09. > :20:13.to reform all that and make it sense of it, that's happening now.

:20:13. > :20:16.And that part of the Bill has gone through both the Commons and the

:20:16. > :20:19.Lords and thankfully it will mean after today it will mean that we

:20:19. > :20:23.will be able to put that into practice, roll it out for people so

:20:23. > :20:26.whatever you do you can get back to work and there will always be a

:20:26. > :20:30.chance of earning more money. wasn't only the cap the Lords

:20:30. > :20:33.defeated the Government on a series of other amendments voted on today,

:20:33. > :20:37.opportunities to protect cancer patients from cuts, opportunities

:20:37. > :20:40.to protect disabled children from cuts. These are save thags are very,

:20:40. > :20:45.very modest and there is a basic point of decency here where the

:20:45. > :20:48.Lords are standing up for what most British people... Funnily enough, I

:20:48. > :20:53.received this morning from Macmillan cancer care, the people

:20:53. > :20:56.who have been behind this pressure, a note of agreement, they say we

:20:56. > :21:01.now find we can work with the Government on proposals, we have

:21:01. > :21:08.reached... We quoted Macmillan cancer care on this programme.

:21:08. > :21:11.was you that done it, Andrew. did point out... It's also worth

:21:11. > :21:14.pointing out, when Stephen says the House of Lords is standing up for

:21:14. > :21:18.decency and truth a lot of Labour peers rebelled against their

:21:18. > :21:24.leadership. There is a consensus, although Stephen tries to hide it

:21:24. > :21:29.in terms of jumping on a band wagon, there are important reforms. And

:21:29. > :21:33.when you use language like protecting cancer patients you are

:21:33. > :21:37.means testing people and reviewing benefits. You are - you don't want

:21:37. > :21:42.to be associated with bankers' bonuses, you don't want to be

:21:42. > :21:46.associated with people who can make more on welfare than people on the

:21:46. > :21:49.average wage and people earning �35,000, just as bankers are

:21:49. > :21:53.difficult for the Conservatives, this is difficult because we know

:21:53. > :21:56.from the polls Labour voters like these changes. Of course it's

:21:56. > :21:59.difficult for us, and we're trying to strike the balance between

:21:59. > :22:03.ensuring that work pays, which is why we support the principle of a

:22:03. > :22:08.cap, but recognising that for many families in high cost areas the cap

:22:08. > :22:13.will be a problem. In the end the best solution is to create jobs.

:22:13. > :22:18.course. So the rebellion is over? Wye have thought this Bill will see

:22:18. > :22:21.the light of day. It's in a much better place than twhepb started,

:22:21. > :22:24.that will mean... Down to the Lords? The Lords and the Commons,

:22:24. > :22:29.there have been changes as well by the way which the Government has

:22:29. > :22:33.put forward as a result of pressure put on by its own backbenchers.

:22:33. > :22:36.have often wanted to say that, in a much better place than when we

:22:36. > :22:39.started! It was you that done it on the

:22:39. > :22:43.cancer care, I will remember that. We even take the credit, but we

:22:43. > :22:49.don't deserve it. Regular viewers will know that the Daily Politics

:22:49. > :22:56.mug, here it is, is a prized possession. We don't give these out

:22:56. > :23:02.to any old Tom, Dick or Harry. Ed or Steve. Not like knighthoods

:23:02. > :23:08.and we never ask for them back! If you want to join Britain's most

:23:08. > :23:11.exclusive club you will just going to have to enter our Guest the --

:23:11. > :23:21.Guess the Year competition. Let's see if you can remember when this

:23:21. > :23:31.

:23:31. > :23:33.# This is the time, time for action Housewives came to their senses,

:23:33. > :23:43.the panic buying stopped which means there should be enough food

:23:43. > :23:53.

:23:53. > :24:03.After three years in jail Mr Stonehouse sprinted towards the car

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:24:46. > :24:54.Coming up to midday here, let's look at Big Ben. There it is. I

:24:54. > :24:58.know it's not Big Ben, but some mistakes are beyond correction!

:24:58. > :25:02.Just take it like that. Whatever that clock is, it can only mean one

:25:02. > :25:12.thing, Prime Ministers questions is on the way it means that Nick

:25:12. > :25:13.

:25:13. > :25:17.Robinson is with us. Nick... Children in the studio! I said it

:25:17. > :25:21.leans to the north-west. Have you quite finished?! Let's get on with

:25:21. > :25:23.serious matters. Mr Miliband did did rather well

:25:23. > :25:28.yesterday when the Prime Minister made his statement on Europe. He is

:25:28. > :25:33.coming off a high. He is, what is intriguing, he began the year with

:25:33. > :25:36.these dreadful write-ups, it was really that PMQs before Christmas

:25:36. > :25:42.in which he had done so badly and the polls were bad and now he is on

:25:42. > :25:46.a bit of a high. Not just because his call for a vote on Hester's pay,

:25:46. > :25:50.the chief executive of the RBS, was cited by RBS as the reason why

:25:50. > :25:53.Stephen Hester was turning it down, but then he discovered a new kind

:25:53. > :25:58.of way of dealing with David Cameron yesterday, which is

:25:58. > :26:02.interesting to see if he try it is today, mockery. Up until now it

:26:02. > :26:06.seems to me, he has deployed a level of outrage which frankly just

:26:06. > :26:10.bounces off David Cameron, much of the time. But the fun he had

:26:10. > :26:16.yesterday and, frankly, the Labour whips got their act together, was

:26:16. > :26:19.to mock David Cameron for what he calls a phantom veto on the EU. He

:26:19. > :26:24.knew the sceptics were uncomfortable and he got his own

:26:24. > :26:27.side together to laugh at the Prime Minister. There was much

:26:27. > :26:30.synchronised laughing from the Labour benches yesterday. Let's

:26:30. > :26:33.look at what Nick has been talking about, this is from yesterday

:26:33. > :26:38.afternoon. Mr Speaker, having heard the Prime

:26:38. > :26:43.Minister's statement on Europe, the whole House now knows the truth,

:26:43. > :26:53.that with this Prime Minister a veto is not for life, it's just for

:26:53. > :26:54.

:26:54. > :27:01.Christmas. LAUGHTER. Calm down, calm down,

:27:01. > :27:06.dear. He said it was a real veto on the use of European institutions

:27:06. > :27:10.and his backbenchers believed him. Mr Speaker, even his cabinet

:27:10. > :27:14.believed him. It was funny, but I think the

:27:14. > :27:19.Labour whips were pumping in some laughing gas just to keep it going

:27:19. > :27:26.on the backbenches. What does he go on today, probably can't go on

:27:26. > :27:30.Europe again, that was done yesterday? He is likely to surf off

:27:30. > :27:34.this wave over bankers' bonuses. I would imagine the tone he struck

:27:34. > :27:38.yesterday after the removal of Fred Goodwin's knighthood, which is fine

:27:38. > :27:43.but now what are you going to do, is what he will want to pursue, get

:27:43. > :27:46.some credit for the fact Stephen Hester lost his bonus, he will want

:27:46. > :27:49.to accuse the Prime Minister of failing to deal with that bonus and

:27:49. > :27:52.want to deal with it. He might have another go at health, I only say

:27:52. > :27:56.that because he asked three questions on health last week. The

:27:56. > :28:00.reason he did it actually is that he was aware that the Royal

:28:00. > :28:02.colleges at the time were trying to co-ordinate a letter on protest

:28:03. > :28:06.against the health Bill, actually there were too many disagreements

:28:06. > :28:11.at the top level. Between the colleges. They couldn't agree, some

:28:11. > :28:13.wanted to send a militant letter, others said that they wanted still

:28:13. > :28:17.to work with the Government to improve it. So he didn't have a

:28:17. > :28:21.kind of platform to go on. But he will try again because he knows

:28:21. > :28:23.there is a lot of concern about the Bill, he knows it's coming back to

:28:23. > :28:28.the House. But the interesting thing is just one last thought,

:28:28. > :28:31.when we say the hraft certificate co-ordinated, -- laughter is co-

:28:31. > :28:34.ordinated, don't forget who Iain Duncan Smith said to us in this

:28:34. > :28:38.studio, former leader of the opposition, said you have to as a

:28:38. > :28:42.leader of the opposition, have co- ordinated action by your whips. We

:28:42. > :28:46.can kind of mock it, we can say isn't it pathetic. All ask the same

:28:46. > :28:50.question, all laugh at the same joke, but you are on your own there.

:28:50. > :28:55.The party is by definition bigger than you, more resource, if you

:28:55. > :29:00.don't operate as an opposition together, you are stuffed. I won

:29:00. > :29:04.ter too, whether the Commons will raise itself above its normal

:29:04. > :29:10.parochial concerns and do anything, will anybody raise the issue of

:29:10. > :29:16.this secret NATO report which the BBC News revealed last night, must

:29:16. > :29:21.have been 3.00am, this report done by interviewing 27,000 Afghans,

:29:21. > :29:24.research all over the place, shows not only the Pakistan military and

:29:24. > :29:29.intelligence is supporting the Taliban, which we knew, but NATO

:29:29. > :29:35.confirm, the Afghan army, the Afghan police, local Afghans are

:29:35. > :29:39.all supporting the Taliban, as well now. That brings into question ten

:29:39. > :29:43.years of Labour and Conservative foreign policy. The thing you have

:29:43. > :29:47.noted a lot of times on this programme is how rarely Afghanistan

:29:47. > :29:51.has been properly debated. 9,000 troops there. So will someone raise

:29:51. > :29:54.it, who knows? The truth is it is not given the significance in the

:29:54. > :29:57.House of Commons that you might think, people are nervous of

:29:57. > :30:04.questioning the mission, but there are now real nerves at the top that

:30:04. > :30:08.Obama wants out quick for electoral reasons. Mr Sarkozy. And David

:30:08. > :30:12.Cameron finds himself in the unusual position of saying hold on,

:30:12. > :30:15.let's not get out too quickly here. And yet now with this report

:30:15. > :30:20.suggesting that we are fighting, not just the Taliban, but as it

:30:20. > :30:23.were the organised and supported and financed forces in part of the

:30:23. > :30:27.Pakistani intelligence services. heard this morning the Taliban in

:30:27. > :30:31.parts of Afghanistan have a helpline in place, that the Taliban

:30:31. > :30:37.are basically running the areas, but if any Taliban leaders gets out

:30:37. > :30:40.of line the local Afghan peasant can call the local leadership and

:30:40. > :30:46.say your Guy's out of order here and they can sort him out T would

:30:46. > :30:52.seem from that NATO report that the moment we, the NATO allies, leave

:30:52. > :30:57.they're in. All that blood and treasure that's been spent could

:30:57. > :31:01.end up for nought. The one person who has constantly talked about

:31:01. > :31:05.this is David Miliband. He has constantly made the case in office

:31:05. > :31:09.and now out, that because of what you are saying, the only thing you

:31:09. > :31:15.can do is seek some political settlement with the Taliban and now

:31:15. > :31:19.we know there were talks, Karzai came here to talk about that, there

:31:19. > :31:29.have been talks with the Taliban and Afghan Government, but there is

:31:29. > :31:34.

:31:34. > :31:41.an argument that is the only way The whole house were wants to join

:31:41. > :31:47.me in sending our condolences to the family's of the servicemen,

:31:47. > :31:50.dedicated soldiers who were highly respected by their colleagues for

:31:50. > :31:53.their selfless service which will never be forgotten by our country.

:31:53. > :31:56.This morning I had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others,

:31:56. > :32:04.and in addition to my duties in his as I will have further such

:32:04. > :32:08.meetings later today. Paul Farrelly. Can I associate myself and the

:32:08. > :32:11.whole house with a Prime Minister's remarks? Those brave soldiers have

:32:11. > :32:15.been the ultimate sacrifice in the service of their country. In the

:32:15. > :32:19.past week, chief constables in England and Wales have warned that

:32:19. > :32:22.policing is on a cliff-edge and facing a watershed moment as

:32:23. > :32:27.numbers fall to their lowest in a decade. My paws in Staffordshire is

:32:27. > :32:30.cutting hundreds of police officers and staff. The Prime Minister said

:32:30. > :32:34.in the debates before the election, we are not seeing enough police on

:32:34. > :32:41.the streets, we are not catching up burglars, we are not convicting

:32:41. > :32:46.enough. How does the Prime Minister's rhetoric square with the

:32:47. > :32:52.reality of frontline policing now? Well, the fact is the percentage of

:32:52. > :32:57.officers on the front line has actually increased. What we

:32:57. > :33:00.inherited... We inherited a situation... We inherited a

:33:00. > :33:05.situation where there were 6,000 uniformed officers performing back

:33:05. > :33:09.office roles in the police. Now, we have had to make difficult spending

:33:09. > :33:14.reductions, but I think if he listens to his front bench, he will

:33:14. > :33:19.find out they support the cuts and the pay freeze, and they even so

:33:19. > :33:27.strongly support our police commissioners that droves of Len

:33:27. > :33:31.MPs are going to try to become man! Alok Sharma. Thank you, Mr Speaker.

:33:31. > :33:36.Tonight his house as an historic vote on other households on benefit

:33:36. > :33:39.should be able to receive more than ourselves in work. Does the Prime

:33:39. > :33:45.Minister agree with me that the introduction of a benefits captured

:33:45. > :33:50.have the support of the whole house? Well, I think my honourable

:33:50. > :33:55.friend is entirely right. The cap is right and there. It is right to

:33:55. > :33:59.say that you should not get more than �26,000 per year in benefits,

:33:59. > :34:02.�500 per week, and it is fair because we are introducing a new

:34:03. > :34:06.principle in our welfare system that an able-bodied family that can

:34:06. > :34:12.work should not get more in benefits than the average family

:34:12. > :34:16.gets from work. The leader of the party opposite has said he is not

:34:16. > :34:26.against a cap in principle. Tonight when it will more find out whether

:34:26. > :34:28.

:34:28. > :34:35.he is in favour of a cap in Mr Speaker, can I join the Prime

:34:35. > :34:38.Minister in paying tribute to the signaller Ian Jones from 20th

:34:39. > :34:42.Armoured Brigade headquarters signals squadron and Lance Corporal

:34:42. > :34:46.attached to 1st Battalion the auction regiment? Both men showed

:34:46. > :34:52.exceptional courage and bravery and our thoughts are with their family

:34:52. > :34:57.and friends. Before the election, legislation was passed by

:34:57. > :35:01.Parliament with cross-party support to make all banks disclose how many

:35:01. > :35:06.people earn over �1 million, but it needs the government to trigger the

:35:06. > :35:11.change. Will the Prime Minister go ahead and do it? We now have the

:35:11. > :35:16.toughest and most transparent regime are of any major financial

:35:16. > :35:21.centre in the world. For the first time, banks are going to publish

:35:21. > :35:27.the paper are the top eight executors. That never happened in

:35:27. > :35:30.13 years of a Labour government. On the specific Walker reforms, Walker

:35:30. > :35:36.himself said that it should be done at the same time in all countries

:35:36. > :35:45.across the European Union. Miliband! A Mr Speaker, exactly

:35:45. > :35:49.what we would expect, no leadership on top pay from the Prime Minister.

:35:49. > :35:54.In case he had not... In case he had not heard the news, they are

:35:54. > :36:01.more than eight people earning over �1 million at our banks. What did

:36:01. > :36:03.the Chancellor say in opposition? He said this. We... I think the

:36:03. > :36:08.honourable gentleman opposite should listen to what the

:36:08. > :36:13.Chancellor said in opposition. He said this. We support proposals to

:36:13. > :36:18.make these banks disclose the number of their employees who are

:36:18. > :36:27.on high salaries. Mr Speaker, he even called for them to publish

:36:27. > :36:31.their names! It is another broken promise from this Government. I

:36:31. > :36:36.asked in the question, and again, the legislation is on the books, it

:36:36. > :36:42.is ready to go, it had all-party support. Why doesn't he make it

:36:42. > :36:45.happen? We are listening to the advice of the man who produced the

:36:45. > :36:50.report for the last Labour government! Now, he asks about the

:36:50. > :36:55.number of people getting �1 million bonuses. Let me remind him of this,

:36:55. > :37:05.it was the last Labour government, when he was in the Cabinet, that I

:37:05. > :37:05.

:37:05. > :37:11.read an RBS bonus ball of �1.3 billion! Literally hundreds of

:37:11. > :37:13.people... Literally hundreds of people were getting �1 million

:37:13. > :37:18.bonuses, and he signed it off. The issue for the honourable gentleman

:37:18. > :37:24.is why he is in favour of our things he never did in government?

:37:24. > :37:27.Some might call it opposition, some might call it hypocrisy! This is

:37:27. > :37:33.bigger, I will tell him what hypocrisy is. It is saying he is

:37:33. > :37:38.going to start a �1 million bonus to Stephen Hester and then nodding

:37:38. > :37:42.it through. -- Stop. I have his say to him, I have to say to him, I

:37:42. > :37:46.think we have heard it all, because he says that the class war against

:37:46. > :37:52.the bankers is going to be led by him and his cabinet are

:37:52. > :37:58.millionaires. I do not think it is going to wash, frankly. Let me as

:37:58. > :38:02.Tim... Now, let me ask him about another simple proposal. He had no

:38:02. > :38:06.answer on transparency. Does he agree with me that to bring a dose

:38:06. > :38:11.of realism to the decisions about top pay, they should be an ordinary

:38:11. > :38:14.employee on every page committee so that people on a huge salary at

:38:14. > :38:20.least have to look one of their employees in the eye and justify

:38:20. > :38:25.it? Order! The Prime Minister will know that the use of the word

:38:25. > :38:29.hypocrisy in relation to one individual member is not

:38:29. > :38:32.parliamentary, therefore... Order! Just before the Prime Minister

:38:32. > :38:36.begins his reply, I would ask into the draw that turns straight away.

:38:36. > :38:41.I am very happy to do that, this has begun. I think it is just

:38:41. > :38:45.because we are expected to listen to the people who presided over the

:38:45. > :38:50.biggest banking and financial disaster in our history, and it is

:38:50. > :38:53.not as if they had nothing to do with it! One of them was the city

:38:53. > :39:00.minister and the other one was sitting in the Treasury. I have to

:39:00. > :39:04.ask, who failed to regulate the banks? Labour! Who gave us boom and

:39:04. > :39:08.bust? Labour! Who was it who failed to fix the roof when the sun was

:39:09. > :39:14.shining? Labour! Who presided over a multi-million-pound bonuses and

:39:14. > :39:18.did nothing? Labour! I have looked very carefully at his propositions.

:39:18. > :39:21.I do not think it is practical to do what he is suggesting. It breaks

:39:21. > :39:25.an important principle of not having people on a remuneration

:39:25. > :39:29.committee who have their own pay determined, so I do not think it is

:39:29. > :39:34.the right way forward. The house may be interested to know, because

:39:34. > :39:38.I have looked carefully at all his proposals, he also proposed in

:39:38. > :39:42.Glasgow to ban performance-related pay in all but the most exceptional

:39:42. > :39:46.circumstances. I think that is completely wrong. There are people

:39:46. > :39:49.working in offices and factories and shops around the country who

:39:50. > :39:54.want poor performance related pay, and if they meet some targets, they

:39:54. > :39:57.would like to have a bonus at the end of the year. That is pro

:39:57. > :40:02.aspiration, doing the right thing for our family, and it shows he has

:40:02. > :40:07.not got a clue how to run an economy. Mr Speaker, now we know

:40:07. > :40:10.where the Prime Minister's stance. No to transparency, no to an

:40:10. > :40:13.employee on the remuneration committee, and what was the

:40:13. > :40:16.Chancellor doing last week when supposedly cracking down on top

:40:16. > :40:23.pay? He was going to Davos to tell the business community to lobby for

:40:23. > :40:28.a reduction in the top rate of income tax! We know the truth. We

:40:28. > :40:34.know the truth. When it comes to top pay, his government and this

:40:34. > :40:39.Prime Minister are part of the problem, not part of the solution.

:40:39. > :40:49.Mr Speaker, I do not know what the word is for criticising someone who

:40:49. > :40:55.

:40:55. > :41:01.went to Davos when he went to Davos I think... I think the word Peter

:41:01. > :41:05.Mandelson used when he was in Davos was struggling! The Prime Minister

:41:05. > :41:10.is exceptionally well educated, and I'm sure he has got a very full

:41:10. > :41:15.vocabulary and can make proper use of it. Mr David Davis. Yesterday it

:41:15. > :41:21.was announced that the French company that sold one the first

:41:21. > :41:24.round of a contest for the 10 billion Biden contract with India.

:41:24. > :41:28.That is disastrous news for thousands of workers up and down

:41:28. > :41:31.the country, particularly in my constituency. Given the long

:41:31. > :41:36.relationship between India and Britain, given the fact that we

:41:36. > :41:40.give many times more aid to India and France ever did, would he

:41:40. > :41:45.engage himself and the full force of the government in attempting to

:41:45. > :41:49.reverse his decision? I would do everything I can, as I have already,

:41:49. > :41:53.to encourage the Indians to look at Typhoon, because it is such a good

:41:53. > :41:57.aircraft. The decision is disappointing, but it is about to

:41:57. > :42:01.the Indians have assessed as making the lowest bid and asked to enter

:42:01. > :42:05.into further negotiations. They have not awarded the contract. I

:42:05. > :42:08.would say to my honourable friend, who cares deeply about the people

:42:08. > :42:15.in his constituency, we do not expect any jobless as stemming from

:42:15. > :42:21.this decision, and it doesn't rule out A iPhone 4 India. -- job losses.

:42:21. > :42:27.This is a superb aircraft man we will encourage the Indians to take

:42:27. > :42:31.that look. -- that view. The Deputy Prime Minister said that means-

:42:31. > :42:34.testing may be brought in for pensioners' bus passes. Was he

:42:34. > :42:39.speaking for the government, as does the Prime Minister think that

:42:39. > :42:44.is fair? I made a very clear commitment at the time of the last

:42:44. > :42:48.election about pension and bus passes, about winter fuel payments,

:42:48. > :42:54.apart free television licences, and we are keeping all those promises.

:42:54. > :42:59.Order! The house must come down. I want to hear Penny Mordaunt. If a

:42:59. > :43:02.local supermarket closes down, another quickly takes its place. If

:43:02. > :43:05.Portsmouth Football Club closes down, the Pompey fans will not be

:43:05. > :43:12.content with buying a season ticket from Southampton. Will the Prime

:43:12. > :43:15.Minister at his boys to mind in club so it recoups the tax it is

:43:15. > :43:21.owed that our club survives and the fans have their chance to become

:43:21. > :43:25.its owners? I will certainly do that, and acting she is absolutely

:43:25. > :43:28.right to raise this issue. Knowing what to Pompey fans, I can

:43:28. > :43:32.understand. Their idea that they could support Southampton is

:43:32. > :43:39.completely incredible, and we must do everything we can to keep this

:43:39. > :43:42.friendly rivalry going. Mr Ed Miliband! Mr Speaker, this week,

:43:42. > :43:47.this week the British Medical Journal, the Health Service Journal

:43:47. > :43:52.and Nursing Times published a joint editorial that said, and I quote,

:43:52. > :43:54.the Prime Minister's reorganisation has destabilised and damaged one of

:43:54. > :43:58.this country's greatest achievements, a system that

:43:58. > :44:01.embodies social justice and has delivered a widespread patient

:44:01. > :44:07.satisfaction, public support and value for money. We must make sure

:44:07. > :44:11.that nothing like this ever happens again. Mr Speaker, why does the

:44:11. > :44:16.Prime Minister think he has so comprehensively lost the medical

:44:16. > :44:20.profession's Trust? I noticed he does not run on to raise the well-

:44:20. > :44:25.backed cap today! Peel up and down the country will recognise that. --

:44:25. > :44:28.he does not want to raise the welfare cap. There are tens of

:44:28. > :44:31.thousands of General Practitioners up and down the country who are

:44:31. > :44:35.implementing our reforms because they once decisions made by doctors,

:44:35. > :44:39.not bureaucrats. They want to see health and social care brought

:44:39. > :44:42.together, and they want to put the patient in the driving seat. What I

:44:42. > :44:47.would say to him is look at what is happening in the health service,

:44:47. > :44:51.waiting times are down, infection rates are down, the number of

:44:51. > :44:56.people in mixed sex wards that we put up with for 13 years and a

:44:56. > :44:59.Labour is down by 94%. He should be praising the good things that are

:44:59. > :45:04.happening in the health service, rather than having his policy,

:45:04. > :45:07.which is to say an increase in NHS resources is irresponsible. That is

:45:07. > :45:17.their position. This government is putting the money in and getting

:45:17. > :45:21.Every time he talks about the NHS he just shows how out of touch he

:45:21. > :45:26.is with what is happening on the ground. Let me now tell him who is

:45:26. > :45:30.lined up against this Bill. 98% of GPs against the Bill. The Royal

:45:30. > :45:34.College of Nursing against the Bill. The Royal College of Midwives

:45:34. > :45:38.against the Bill. The Royal College of Radiologists against the Bill.

:45:38. > :45:45.The British Medical Association against the Bill. The Patients'

:45:45. > :45:49.Association against the Bill. Mr Speaker, he knows in his heart of

:45:49. > :45:54.hearts this Bill is a disaster. Now there were rumours last week that

:45:54. > :45:58.he was considering dropping the Bill. He has a choice, he can carry

:45:58. > :46:06.on regardless, or he can listen to the public and the professions,

:46:06. > :46:12.will he now do the right thing and drop this unwanted Bill?

:46:12. > :46:16.If you are trying to bring in to a public service choice, competition,

:46:16. > :46:20.transparency, proper results and publication of results, you will

:46:20. > :46:24.always find that there will be objections. The question is, is it

:46:24. > :46:29.going to improve patient care and the running of the health service?

:46:29. > :46:33.I apologise for interrupting, the Prime Minister's answer must be

:46:33. > :46:37.heard. Order! There is excessive noise on both sides. Members must

:46:37. > :46:46.calm down, let's hear the Prime Minister's answer. Let me tell him

:46:46. > :46:52.something that Tony Blair once wrote about the process of reform.

:46:52. > :46:59.I know, there is a man who knows a thing about bonuses and pay. He

:46:59. > :47:04.said this: Listen, listen! It is an important lesson in the progress of

:47:04. > :47:07.reform, changes proposed, it is announced as a disaster. It

:47:07. > :47:13.preseeds with vast opposition, it is unpopular, it comes about.

:47:13. > :47:17.Within a short space of time it is as if it has always been so. The

:47:17. > :47:21.lessen is instructive f you thing is a change is right, go with it.

:47:21. > :47:29.The opposition is inevitable, but it is rarely unbeatable. Someone

:47:29. > :47:35.who knew a thing or two about reform. Thank you, Mr Speaker.

:47:35. > :47:40.Order!. The honourable member will be heard. Thank you, Mr Speaker. A

:47:40. > :47:46.year ago I asked the Prime Minister for help when there was the

:47:46. > :47:48.announcement of the Pfizer closure in Sandwich, would the Prime

:47:48. > :47:54.Minister agree that the support and help from his Ministers that's

:47:54. > :48:01.delivered us an enterprise zone and �40 million for jobs in east Kent

:48:01. > :48:05.ensures that we are still a leading centre for life sciences? I am

:48:05. > :48:08.delighted with what the honourable lady says. It was a tough and

:48:08. > :48:12.difficult time when they made that decision, but I think it's shown

:48:12. > :48:15.that Government and industry and local people in organisations

:48:15. > :48:18.coming together, we have been able to keep a lot of jobs and a lot of

:48:18. > :48:24.investment and research and development in that area. What Wye

:48:24. > :48:27.say to all pharmaceutical companies is this Government has the patent

:48:27. > :48:31.box, if you invent things in this country and develop them in this

:48:31. > :48:36.country you only pay a 10% corporation tax rate, that enables

:48:36. > :48:41.us to say to pharmaceutical ap -- companies all over the world, come

:48:42. > :48:45.and invest in Britain. This week temperatures across Britain have

:48:46. > :48:50.dropped drastically and last winter 200 people died every day from

:48:50. > :48:53.preventable cold weather-related illnesses, but in in Barnsley,

:48:53. > :48:58.instead of being able to focus resource on promoting the dangers

:48:58. > :49:01.of cold weather, we have had to set aside �17 million for an

:49:01. > :49:05.undemocratic, top-down reorganisation of the NHS. Can the

:49:05. > :49:10.Prime Minister tell my constituents if this really is a responsible use

:49:10. > :49:13.of public money? First of all, what I would say to

:49:13. > :49:16.him and everyone in Barnsley, this Government has been able to keep

:49:16. > :49:19.higher level of cold weather payments introduced before the

:49:19. > :49:23.election and we have kept them for all years and that will be a real

:49:23. > :49:27.help along with the winter fuel allowance. What I would say about

:49:27. > :49:31.the NHS is to simply look at the figures, if you look since the

:49:31. > :49:37.election there are 4,000 more doctors working in our NHS, there

:49:38. > :49:41.are 620 more midwives working in our NHS. And we are actually

:49:41. > :49:45.treating 100,000 more patients per month in our NHS. That's what is

:49:45. > :49:49.actually happening in the NHS, if he looks at what's happening in the

:49:49. > :49:54.hospital, rather than repeats what the trade unions are telling him.

:49:54. > :49:58.The Prime Minister will be aware that talks between St George's and

:49:58. > :50:03.Epsom and St Helier Trust have been abandoned regarding a possible

:50:03. > :50:07.merger. Could I seek reassurances that the Trust will be able to

:50:07. > :50:09.engage with local partners such as local authorities and the clinical

:50:09. > :50:14.commissioning groups to come forward with a proposal that meets

:50:14. > :50:18.local health needs and also that the �290 million allocated for the

:50:18. > :50:21.hospital is still available? Well, I totally understand my

:50:21. > :50:26.honourable friend's concerns about this issue. The priority for the

:50:26. > :50:28.Trust remains to secure the future of Epsom and St Helier and Sutton

:50:28. > :50:32.hospitals. I understand the board and those working on a possible

:50:32. > :50:35.merger had already started to look at the other options in case this

:50:35. > :50:38.didn't happen. I understand they're now looking at the next steps and I

:50:38. > :50:43.am sure the Department of Health will want to engage closely with

:50:43. > :50:48.him as this unfolds. Prime Minister, you are keen to

:50:48. > :50:52.tell us that work should always pay. Therefore, what do you say to my

:50:52. > :50:56.constituents from low and middle income family who is have contacted

:50:56. > :51:00.me to convey their fears about the measures being brought forward by

:51:00. > :51:04.the Government such as the removal of working and child tax credits,

:51:05. > :51:09.these are working people who are already facing severe financial

:51:09. > :51:13.difficulties and the current proposals could cost these hard

:51:13. > :51:17.working families with disabled children in receipt of the lower

:51:17. > :51:21.disability premium over �1300 per year?

:51:21. > :51:24.Well, I make two points. Of course we have had to reform the tax

:51:25. > :51:28.credit system when we came to office, tax credits went all the

:51:28. > :51:32.way up the income scale so actually people even in this House were

:51:32. > :51:38.eligible for tax credits and we have taken it further down the

:51:38. > :51:43.income scale. In terms of what she says about disability, I would make

:51:43. > :51:48.two points. Disability living allowance is going up by 5.2% this

:51:48. > :51:51.April, which will be well ahead of inflation. The point I would make

:51:51. > :51:57.about the universal credit issue is as she knows there is the lower

:51:57. > :52:00.rate for disabled children at �53. Anyone on that level is going to be

:52:00. > :52:04.completely protected through transitional payments. We haven't

:52:04. > :52:11.yet set the higher rate, but I can tell the honourable lady it will be

:52:11. > :52:17.at least what it is now, and possibly higher.

:52:17. > :52:23.Will the Prime Minister, as a matter of urgency, look into recent

:52:23. > :52:28.shocking report into allegations of overcharging of vulnerable adults

:52:28. > :52:32.on which arele and cases of violence and intimidation under a

:52:32. > :52:36.Labour-led council control, making sure those responsible are brought

:52:36. > :52:39.to account and never work in adult social services again?

:52:39. > :52:43.Well, I will certainly look at the report that she mentions. It's

:52:43. > :52:46.clearly a serious matter. Also ask the Minister responsible in the

:52:46. > :52:51.Department of Health to look into this matter further and speak with

:52:51. > :52:55.her. Clearly CQC, which has had a difficult birth has a really

:52:55. > :52:58.important job to do in terms of making sure inspections are

:52:58. > :53:01.thorough and targeted in the areas where they're most needed and

:53:01. > :53:06.clearly it sounds from what she said, is there is a great need for

:53:06. > :53:09.this to happen on Merseyside. again today the Prime Minister has

:53:09. > :53:12.denied that he is cutting benefits for disabled children, but the

:53:13. > :53:21.lower rate of disability living allowance for disabled children has

:53:21. > :53:24.been reduced from �54, almost �54 to almost �27, a cut of practically

:53:24. > :53:29.50%. 100,000 children are going to be affect. Is that not correct,

:53:29. > :53:33.Prime Minister? What is correct is that anyone on

:53:33. > :53:40.that lower rate of payment, no one will receive less as a result of

:53:40. > :53:43.their move to universal credit. No one will be affected by that.

:53:43. > :53:47.Thank you, Mr Speaker. Does the Prime Minister agree that a

:53:47. > :53:50.meaningful cap on benefits is essential if we are to end the

:53:50. > :53:53.something for nothing culture which developed under the last

:53:53. > :53:57.Government? I think that is absolutely right.

:53:57. > :54:00.It is right to bring in this cap T does introduce a new principle,

:54:01. > :54:05.which is you shouldn't be better off on benefits than the average

:54:05. > :54:09.family is in work. But what we have had from the party opposite is a

:54:09. > :54:16.complete silence. Are they going to be supporting us tonight in the

:54:16. > :54:19.lobbies? Why not just nod? Nod? I thought it was all about taking

:54:19. > :54:23.tough decisions, that they were in favour of a cap. They were going to

:54:23. > :54:28.tear up some of Labour's history. It was time to make bold decisions.

:54:28. > :54:38.Come on, one bold decision, just nod. Are you with us or against us?

:54:38. > :54:39.

:54:39. > :54:43.A great big vacuum. Can the Prime Minister explain why

:54:43. > :54:51.my 65 kwraoerbld conconstitute --- year-old consit kwrepbt who

:54:51. > :54:54.couldn't debt a council home has to pay �100 because of his housing

:54:54. > :54:58.benefit reforms? Why is this Prime Minister so much tougher on the

:54:59. > :55:02.vulnerable, than he is on the powerful with their excessive

:55:02. > :55:06.bonuses? We know they're not going to back

:55:06. > :55:12.us on the welfare cap, and now we can see they're against the housing

:55:12. > :55:17.benefit reforms as well. Let me just remind her what her own

:55:17. > :55:25.welfare Minister said. He said it's completely unacceptable that

:55:25. > :55:33.housing benefit has rocketed to �20 billion. This is what he said.

:55:33. > :55:37.Where is - he is not at home today. He said this: Beverage would

:55:37. > :55:41.scarcely have believed housing benefit alone is costing the UK

:55:41. > :55:47.over �20 billion a year. Now, this Government is reforming it, that

:55:47. > :55:51.opposition is doing nothing. Does the Prime Minister agree that

:55:51. > :55:54.all members of this House who claim they're on the side of hard working

:55:54. > :55:58.families across the country should vote with the Government tonight to

:55:58. > :56:02.cap benefits at �26,000, which is after all the average income of

:56:02. > :56:07.hard working families? She's absolutely right. People up

:56:07. > :56:11.and down the country will be completely amazed that supposedly

:56:11. > :56:16.the party that's meant to stand up for working people thinks that it's

:56:16. > :56:21.OK to get more on benefits, than a family gets from working. Let me

:56:21. > :56:28.give them one more go. Are you with news the lobbies tonight -- with

:56:28. > :56:32.you with us in the lobbies tonight? Absolutely hopeless. It is now

:56:32. > :56:37.clear that the single biggest funder of the Prime Minister's

:56:37. > :56:41.party got his peerage on false pretenses. Can the Prime Minister

:56:41. > :56:44.guarantee that Lord Ashcroft has now told the whole truth about his

:56:44. > :56:48.connections with the building company Johnson International, or

:56:48. > :56:53.is it yet again one rule for his rich friends, and another rule for

:56:53. > :56:58.everyone else? I have answered this question many

:56:58. > :57:04.times. I I might point out to him the largest funder of his party has

:57:04. > :57:09.been based offshore. There are eight million houses who have to

:57:09. > :57:13.make do with earning �26,000 or less before tax. What message does

:57:14. > :57:23.my right honourable friend think we will be sending to those people if

:57:23. > :57:28.we are to renege on to cut benefits. Many people who do criticise the

:57:28. > :57:32.benefit cap and say actually �26,000, �500 a week is too high. I

:57:32. > :57:35.think it is fair, I think it is right but I think they have got -

:57:35. > :57:38.people have an expectation of their politicians that we are going to

:57:38. > :57:41.make it clear that you are better off in work than you are in

:57:41. > :57:44.benefits. There are plenty of people who are excluded from the

:57:44. > :57:48.cap because they're on disability living allowance, they're not able

:57:48. > :57:51.to work and the rest of it. But if you can work, you shouldn't be

:57:51. > :58:00.better off on benefits. A simple principle. I find it amazing that

:58:00. > :58:05.the party opposite can't agree. One more go, one little nod? Nothing.

:58:05. > :58:15.Mr Speaker, in opposition the Prime Minister told millions on TV, if

:58:15. > :58:20.

:58:20. > :58:27.you work hard, I will be behind you. 82% state owned RBS hasn't signed

:58:27. > :58:32.up to pay the living wage of �8.30 in London and �7.20 per hour

:58:32. > :58:40.elsewhere for all its staff and contractors. Why does his

:58:40. > :58:44.Government support low wages for workers, but big bucks and bonuses

:58:44. > :58:47.for bankers? I thought by saying standing up for people who work

:58:47. > :58:51.hard he was beginning to get the hang of it and we might have a

:58:51. > :58:55.supporter tonight. What this Government has done with RBS is

:58:55. > :59:01.radically cut the bonus pool that was massive under Labour, is say

:59:01. > :59:08.there should be a �2,000 cash cap, unlike the massive cash increases

:59:08. > :59:12.under Labour and actually beginning to get this bank under control.

:59:12. > :59:15.Liberal Democrat plan to increase the income tax threshold to �10,000

:59:15. > :59:19.was on the front page of our manifesto. It will give many

:59:19. > :59:23.working people an extra �700 a year and lift millions of poorly paid

:59:23. > :59:26.people out of income tax altogether. At a time when many working people

:59:26. > :59:31.are struggling to make ends meet, will the Prime Minister agree to go

:59:31. > :59:34.further and faster on this much needed tax cut?

:59:34. > :59:39.I think the honourable gentleman is right to raise this issue and I am

:59:39. > :59:44.proud of the fact we have taken 1.1 million people out of tax, those

:59:44. > :59:46.are some of the lowest paid people in our country, the majority are

:59:46. > :59:52.women and we are committed to making further progress during this

:59:52. > :59:56.parliament with this policy. Prime Minister, before the general

:59:56. > :00:01.election you told midwives that you would make their lives easier and

:00:01. > :00:05.that you would recruit 3,000 more midwives. Since the general

:00:05. > :00:11.election nurses and midwives have been downbanded, working harder for

:00:11. > :00:14.less, and midwives in training have been reduced by 3% a year. Will the

:00:14. > :00:19.British people wrong to take you at your word?

:00:19. > :00:23.I am very sorry but the honourable lady's figures are in fact wrong,

:00:23. > :00:28.compared with the election there are over 620 more midwives working

:00:28. > :00:32.in the NHS, and there are record numbers in training. Now we want to

:00:32. > :00:36.do more. But will only be able to do more if we keep funding the NHS

:00:36. > :00:40.and her party is committed to cutting it, saying NHS funding

:00:40. > :00:42.increases are irresponsible. And will only be able to do it if we

:00:42. > :00:46.keep cutting back on the bureaucracy which we are doing

:00:46. > :00:49.successfully with our reforms and making sure the money goes into the

:00:49. > :00:59.front end. But there are more midwives, more in training. I am

:00:59. > :01:02.afraid her figures are wrong. you, Mr Speaker. On New Year's Eve

:01:02. > :01:07.2010 my constituent Jamie Still was killed by a drink driver who was

:01:07. > :01:11.more than twice over the limit. And yet his family had to face the fact

:01:11. > :01:15.that the person who killed him continued to drive for a further

:01:15. > :01:20.eight months until sentencing. Will the Prime Minister agree to meet

:01:20. > :01:23.with the family and consider their campaign that people who are

:01:23. > :01:26.seriously over the limit in a death by dangerous driving case should

:01:26. > :01:32.have as part of their bail conditions their driving licence

:01:32. > :01:34.withdrawn? My heart goes out to my honourable

:01:34. > :01:38.friend's constituents for the loss they've suffered. I think he raises

:01:38. > :01:41.a very important point about what happens in cases like these and

:01:41. > :01:46.what you can and cannot do with bail conditions. I will certainly

:01:46. > :01:49.go away and look at that. It may well be this is something we can

:01:49. > :01:52.consider alongside the recommendations we are considering

:01:52. > :01:55.about drug-related driving. I think there is more work for the

:01:55. > :02:00.Government to do in this area and I will certainly listen to his

:02:00. > :02:05.concerns. We believe on these benches that the Government's

:02:05. > :02:08.welfare cap is both fair and reasonable and we will be

:02:09. > :02:12.supporting the Government in the lobbies tonight but we also believe

:02:12. > :02:17.that the Lords' amendments affecting vulnerable people, cancer

:02:17. > :02:21.patients and disabled people are also fair and reasonable. Not least

:02:21. > :02:23.because of the disproportionately detrimental effects on Northern

:02:23. > :02:28.Ireland which the Prime Minister will be aware of. Why is it,

:02:28. > :02:31.therefore, that we are so limited in time in terms of debating these

:02:31. > :02:34.crucial issues which affect so many of our most vulnerable people?

:02:34. > :02:38.First of all, can I thank him for his support in the lobbies tonight

:02:38. > :02:42.and look forward to seeing him there. On the issue of the cancer

:02:43. > :02:46.sufferers and the plans, let me explain that the number of people

:02:46. > :02:50.under our plans, the number of cancer sufferers that will get

:02:50. > :02:52.extra long-term help through the support group is actually going to

:02:52. > :02:55.increase. And we are going to reduce the number of people that

:02:55. > :02:58.have to have face-to-face assessments. These proposals have

:02:58. > :03:02.been fully supported by Professor Harrington Harrington who we asked

:03:02. > :03:05.to look into this issue because we weren't happy with the previous

:03:05. > :03:08.Government's arrangements and the way these things were dealt with.

:03:08. > :03:12.The point Wye make is there are two types of employment and support

:03:12. > :03:17.allowance, the support group who will always go on getting support,

:03:17. > :03:19.not means tested, as long as they need that help they will get it and

:03:19. > :03:23.the work-related activity group, people who with help are able to

:03:23. > :03:28.work and I think it's right to ask them with support to get into work

:03:28. > :03:36.and that's what we are going to do. Who does the Prime Minister think

:03:36. > :03:39.is on the side of hard working low paid families in doesn't eaten? The

:03:39. > :03:43.Conservative-led coalition that's taken the lowest paid out of tax

:03:43. > :03:46.and capping benefits or the party opposite who took away the 10p tax

:03:46. > :03:52.rate and flip-flopping over the benefit cap?

:03:52. > :04:02.I think my honourable friend is being chartable, they're not flip-

:04:02. > :04:07.

:04:07. > :04:10.flopping over the benefit cap, So Mr Mellor and went on bankers'

:04:10. > :04:15.bonuses, asking the Prime Minister to do even more following the loss

:04:15. > :04:19.of the knighthood from Fred Goodwin. -- Mr Miliband. He then went on the

:04:19. > :04:23.NHS reforms, which the government is still struggling to get through

:04:23. > :04:27.the Lords, pointing out that most of the medical establishment is

:04:27. > :04:30.against the reforms. The Prime Minister pointed out that the

:04:30. > :04:34.medical establishment is usually against any kind of reform. What

:04:34. > :04:37.was not mentioned, dogs that did not bark in the mother of all

:04:37. > :04:43.parliaments, Afghanistan did not rate a mention, despite the NATO

:04:43. > :04:47.report we are talking about earlier. The eurozone, despite the failure

:04:47. > :04:51.of Greece to agree the size of its haircut, and Portugal looking as if

:04:51. > :04:56.it will be next in line to take a haircut as well. There was not even

:04:56. > :05:02.a passing reference to Mitt Romney winning in Florida in the early

:05:02. > :05:07.hours of this morning, which I thought they might have mentioned.

:05:07. > :05:12.We will hear what our panel thinks in a moment, but first what were

:05:12. > :05:16.the e-mails about? The leaders' performances and the NHS, in the

:05:16. > :05:19.name. Ian Jordan from Tamworth, suddenly Ed Miliband has the

:05:19. > :05:25.measure of David Cameron, who seems rattled and weak by comparison on

:05:25. > :05:30.key issues. David Cameron does not do himself well when he loses his

:05:30. > :05:33.temper and personalises his attack. This is from Damian in Manchester,

:05:33. > :05:37.David Cameron is quite right to repeat the fact that Labour left us

:05:37. > :05:43.with such a mess, many people in the Labour Party are very fickle

:05:43. > :05:47.and need a reminder, hence the lame class division Jan. This is from

:05:47. > :05:50.Liam in addition, fed up with David Cameron refusing to answer the

:05:51. > :05:56.questions, the response about NHS reform proved that he is genuinely

:05:56. > :06:04.at of touch. But this is from Damian, all right, two goes, here

:06:04. > :06:08.we go again with desperate veto using the NHS card. -- desperate Ed.

:06:08. > :06:14.Time to hose down our automatic accent, back to class war!

:06:14. > :06:17.thought that was the striking thing, there is no doubt that Ed Miliband

:06:17. > :06:21.that the Prime Minister on the back foot, just by quietly asking

:06:21. > :06:26.questions that he knew the answer to already, the answer was no. Why

:06:26. > :06:29.not implement the Walker report which would mean that bankers

:06:29. > :06:34.salaries over �1 million were published? Why not put an employee

:06:34. > :06:38.on the remuneration committees? But then he is an extraordinary phrase

:06:38. > :06:44.when he said that David Cameron and his Cabinet of millionaires, of his

:06:44. > :06:50.political strategy, could not lead a class war on bankers. I think he

:06:50. > :06:54.might come to regret that phrase. If I was a businessman, sitting in

:06:54. > :06:59.New York right now, and I am thinking of relocating and putting

:06:59. > :07:03.a new investment into Europe, and I am watching British politics at the

:07:03. > :07:08.moment, what do I see? I see politicians in the keirin on how

:07:08. > :07:14.much I can pay senior executives, those who pay a lot being pilloried,

:07:14. > :07:17.and whatever I pay, the state will take 52%. Why come to Britain?

:07:17. > :07:20.not think it is only in Britain that these debates are happening.

:07:20. > :07:25.They are happening in America and other European countries, and it is

:07:25. > :07:29.about getting a proper balance between open for business and

:07:29. > :07:32.having proper remuneration for people, and understanding the

:07:32. > :07:38.causes of the collapse in 2008. are meant to be open for business,

:07:38. > :07:42.we have to rebuild our economy after the Great Crash of 2008, and

:07:42. > :07:45.this would not seem to be a great way of going about it if we want to

:07:45. > :07:48.have a business-friendly environment. Of course, we have got

:07:48. > :07:51.to have a business-friendly environment, and it is right that

:07:51. > :07:56.we strike a proper and correct balance and avoid being anti-

:07:56. > :08:00.business. Ed is promoting a devout about responsible capitalism, which

:08:01. > :08:04.a lot of people in the business world recognise needs to happen.

:08:04. > :08:08.The problem for the Conservatives is that you unleash the dogs of war,

:08:08. > :08:13.the Tories in opposition loved banker bashing. Indeed, your

:08:13. > :08:17.rhetoric often outbid Labour, and it has come back to bite you in the

:08:17. > :08:20.bottom. I do not think so, if you are sitting in New York, you will

:08:20. > :08:25.see the Occupy Wall Street protesters down the road. This

:08:25. > :08:35.debate happens all over the world. The day are not saying how much you

:08:35. > :08:39.

:08:39. > :08:43.can pay people. Net but the focus on business. Nobody objects to

:08:43. > :08:48.people starting a business being rewarded for it. -- let's put the

:08:48. > :08:52.focus. Are people being paid large bonuses went by and large they are

:08:52. > :08:56.only in business because the taxpayer has bailed them out?

:08:56. > :09:00.People object to the one-way bet, where if you do well, you get a

:09:00. > :09:05.large bonus, and the same if you do badly. There's nothing wrong with

:09:05. > :09:09.politicians pointing that out. If you were in New York, I hope he

:09:09. > :09:13.would say this was a great place to do business for a technology

:09:13. > :09:16.company, but also it if you are a banker, let's show a bit of

:09:16. > :09:21.humility and understanding that you live in a society where people have

:09:21. > :09:24.real concerns. I understand the point that if we bailed these

:09:24. > :09:29.bankers out, it is rather frustrating to see them still being

:09:29. > :09:34.on huge salaries, even though they have not put their banks on to an

:09:34. > :09:39.even keel. But you NPower, and when you took over, you both agreed that

:09:39. > :09:43.that decision on pay and bonuses were not be yours. -- in power. You

:09:43. > :09:48.and sauced it to a quango, and you do not have the direct power to

:09:48. > :09:53.determine pay. -- out sourced. reality in the case are RBS is that

:09:53. > :09:59.the state had to intervene to save RBS. That is not my issue. You did

:09:59. > :10:02.not take direct control of pay and bonuses. You out solstice, and the

:10:02. > :10:11.Conservatives in government have kept it that way. -- Alex Horne

:10:11. > :10:15.state. I thought you were linking Andrew is putting his finger on

:10:15. > :10:18.something interesting, which is the concern that business has and is

:10:18. > :10:22.beginning to articulate, the arbitrary nature of political

:10:22. > :10:27.intervention. They can cope with rules. If you change the tax system,

:10:27. > :10:31.they have got predictability. If you want to change the rules on

:10:31. > :10:35.transparency, for example, or how pay is set, whether there should be

:10:35. > :10:39.bonuses, in the end they make a judgment. The thing that is really

:10:39. > :10:43.an ailing business at the moment is the fact that when political

:10:43. > :10:46.pressure gets great enough, when there is contest on the front

:10:47. > :10:52.benches as to who can be holier than now, suddenly this arm's-

:10:52. > :10:57.length relationship with RBS goes out the window when the Prime

:10:57. > :11:03.Minister desperately tries to stop Stephen Hester's bonus. People

:11:03. > :11:06.expect politicians to talk about the businesses -- issues of the day.

:11:06. > :11:11.I seem to remember the chairman of RBS waved his bonus before Stephen

:11:11. > :11:16.Hester made his decision, leaving Stephen Hester even more exposed.

:11:16. > :11:19.There was a public debate, and he knew he was taking on a publicly

:11:19. > :11:25.owned bank and the brokers would be on hand. The share price has halved,

:11:25. > :11:35.people are wondering why he should get a �2 million bonus. Mash the

:11:35. > :11:40.

:11:40. > :11:42.It needs to be about changing the rules, and what was striking today

:11:42. > :11:46.was that Ed Miliband put to the Prime Minister some pretty modest

:11:46. > :11:49.changes to the rules that have been recommended by the High Pay

:11:49. > :11:53.Commission, and the Prime Minister parted them away. The Walker report

:11:54. > :11:57.says do not introduce those rules unless they are global. The idea

:11:58. > :12:03.that the Prime Minister is holding back on his is not right. One issue

:12:03. > :12:09.that we have not talked about as we come to the end of our time here,

:12:09. > :12:15.as a country, we give almost more than �250 million the year in

:12:15. > :12:18.foreign aid to India. I understand we have given about �1.3 billion in

:12:18. > :12:23.the last four years, and yet we learned last night that the Indians

:12:23. > :12:26.have decided not to buy the Eurofighter, the Typhoon, of which

:12:26. > :12:31.we make a big chunk, but to buy what most people regard as an

:12:31. > :12:38.inferior French fighter, the Rafale. It has not been money well spent.

:12:38. > :12:43.do not think we gave money to India... France is nothing to India.

:12:43. > :12:47.France has no one aid to India. are a generous nation. Comic Relief

:12:47. > :12:51.has raised more money in a recession than they did before. We

:12:51. > :12:58.give that money to the Indian people. We give it to people who

:12:58. > :13:01.are in poverty, suffering from illness and disease. It goes to

:13:01. > :13:05.government quangos. It is moving to a position where India will no

:13:05. > :13:08.longer receive aid over the next three years. That is the direction

:13:08. > :13:13.of travel. We have supported programmes which deserve to be

:13:13. > :13:17.supported. The Prime Minister indicated that this was not yet a

:13:17. > :13:22.done deal. If that is true, we are going to go back in Anne and Pitch

:13:22. > :13:28.Again. He seemed to suggest the Indians had opened negotiations

:13:28. > :13:31.with the French because they had given the lowest bid. He seemed to

:13:31. > :13:36.suggest it might yet unravel and that there would be another go for

:13:36. > :13:41.British Aerospace. I have not seen at anywhere else. Neither have I.

:13:41. > :13:45.David Davies, along with Alan Johnson, the former Labour Home

:13:45. > :13:49.Secretary, both MPs in hull, have been campaigning together to try to

:13:49. > :13:54.defend jobs in the area, and this will cause them real angst. Thank

:13:54. > :14:00.you for being with us, we're holding hostage until one o'clock,

:14:00. > :14:06.so do not think about leaving! gets to leave early? For good

:14:06. > :14:14.behaviour! He is a member of Her Majesty's BBC. He has got to get to

:14:14. > :14:18.the news. I can check whether that is true! It is out! The Government,

:14:18. > :14:22.about to publish what could be as many as 100 amendments to its

:14:22. > :14:26.controversial Bill to reform the NHS. After the furore caused by the

:14:26. > :14:30.original proposals on the health secretary, Andrew Lansley, there

:14:31. > :14:35.was a redrafting of the legislation. Doctors and nurses have been on the

:14:35. > :14:39.warpath again, calling for the plans to be abandoned. I'm joined

:14:39. > :14:41.by former Labour Health Minister Lord Warner. Do you think it is

:14:41. > :14:45.still possible politically to push these reforms through? I have

:14:45. > :14:50.little doubt that the Government will get its bill at the end of the

:14:50. > :14:54.day. Now, they would get that bill at a price. They will have

:14:54. > :14:59.alienated quite a lot of people. They certainly will not have

:14:59. > :15:04.achieved cross-party consensus. The uproar that will come from

:15:04. > :15:08.implementing the Bill will disrupt the NHS from delivering the �20

:15:08. > :15:11.billion savings over the next four years that have to be delivered.

:15:11. > :15:17.the bill should be scrapped? have got to that rather strange

:15:17. > :15:21.point where the Bill is a good way up the hill, and it is a tough

:15:21. > :15:25.judgment as to whether you march everybody back down or continue to

:15:25. > :15:29.the summit. I think we are at the point where you are got to carry on

:15:29. > :15:32.and make the best of a bad job. that is the problem, it seems

:15:32. > :15:35.impossible to get rid of it, even if there are people across the

:15:36. > :15:40.political spectrum who feel it is too difficult to achieve while

:15:40. > :15:45.making savings. I think there is a danger that we end up with a

:15:45. > :15:51.financial train crash. I mean, there is no doubt about that. Most

:15:51. > :15:56.organisations would not try to overturn the organisational

:15:56. > :15:59.structure at the same time that they are trying to produce �20

:15:59. > :16:02.billion worth of savings over a period of years. They would try to

:16:02. > :16:07.keep more managers in those posts to deliver the changes, but they

:16:07. > :16:11.have chosen, the government, to go the hard route. What about the

:16:11. > :16:15.amendments themselves? We are expecting about 100. Will that do

:16:15. > :16:19.anything to dramatically changed the bill? It is a very able

:16:19. > :16:23.minister in the Lords, but he got a fair old kicking from across the

:16:23. > :16:26.benches and quite a few issues. They are not issues which have been

:16:26. > :16:31.in the public eye, but they are important, education, training,

:16:31. > :16:36.research, public health. The conversation I had with him this

:16:36. > :16:39.morning, where he courteously rang me up, suggested they have listened

:16:39. > :16:43.to some of the concerns that were expressed in the Lords from

:16:43. > :16:49.different parts of the house. So I think we are going to end up with

:16:49. > :16:53.probably a better built than it Thank you very much.

:16:53. > :16:56.Now, you might well be confused about what these reforms to the NHS

:16:56. > :17:01.actually mean. We certainly are, but the politicians they must

:17:01. > :17:05.understand it, right? Well, just to be sure we have a

:17:05. > :17:10.little test for our two politicians, test number two. I would like to

:17:10. > :17:14.ask you, Ed, you are going to start us off, to arrange these cards on

:17:14. > :17:19.the flip chart, which has been brought in very ably by John, to

:17:19. > :17:22.show us the structure of the NHS will look like under the

:17:22. > :17:28.Government's reforms. I might help you. Stephen, you are going to tell

:17:28. > :17:30.him if he is right or not. Can you be - this is a flow chart, you

:17:30. > :17:35.remember these from school. Starting at the top with the chain

:17:35. > :17:39.of responsibility. Have a go. think it's unfair to ask me,

:17:39. > :17:42.because I came early to the programme and walked in and was

:17:42. > :17:48.told I wasn't allowed in the studio and saw the entire arrangement.

:17:48. > :17:52.mean you cheated! I will say that is my flow chart. This is what

:17:52. > :17:55.these reforms are about. Obviously, they will be helped by your

:17:55. > :17:59.clinical commissioning groups, go somewhere over here. You want to

:17:59. > :18:04.put patients at the bottom, you are the BBC, but I would put them at

:18:04. > :18:11.the top. This is the Government's reforms. I do want to put Andrew at

:18:11. > :18:17.the top, he is a great man. I think they go to the side here, clinical

:18:17. > :18:20.Senates, linking in to the groups. GPs and dentists and the national

:18:20. > :18:27.board under Andrew, of course, very important people. And hospitals

:18:27. > :18:33.over here. But the key point is patients. That's what it's all

:18:33. > :18:36.about. I want to put them at the top. This is a BBC flow chart.

:18:36. > :18:39.key thing happened there is when things started to fall off, that's

:18:39. > :18:42.what has been happening throughout this process. It's a disaster and

:18:42. > :18:46.big waste of money what the Government are doing. What is a

:18:46. > :18:51.waste of money? Labour have said handing over a slice of the budget

:18:51. > :18:56.to GPs, cutting out the middle management is not a bad idea.

:18:56. > :18:59.started some of this with practice- based commissions, Andy Burnham

:18:59. > :19:02.when he became shadow Health Secretary made an offer to Andrew

:19:02. > :19:06.Lansley to work together to spread clinical commissioning but we don't

:19:06. > :19:14.need this legislation in order to do that. Isn't the problem really,

:19:14. > :19:20.as the Health Select Committee said, - I will change those. Listen, we

:19:20. > :19:25.have 100 amendments coming on. was so nervous! Shouldn't GPs be

:19:25. > :19:30.closer? You get a point. Do you want to swap those around. Utterly

:19:30. > :19:35.humiliating this programme! I only come on it waupbs year -- waupbs

:19:35. > :19:37.year. There is unhappiness on your benches with this, even if you

:19:38. > :19:41.agree with the reforms it's not possible to do the same thing as

:19:41. > :19:44.taking that money out and carry out reforms at the same time. Well, I

:19:44. > :19:49.think the reforms are long overdue and I think they will put power

:19:49. > :19:52.into the hands of GPs and you will remember the letter from the

:19:52. > :19:55.commissioning groups published I think last week, saying this is a

:19:55. > :20:00.huge opportunity for the NHS. There have been reforms, reforms under

:20:00. > :20:05.the last Government. I remember as a new MP we had five Primary Care

:20:05. > :20:10.Trusts, we went down to down. We want to simplify the structure. I

:20:10. > :20:17.thought would you produce a much more complicated, one that closely

:20:17. > :20:20.resepl pwepled the BBC perhaps. studio is not big enough for that!

:20:20. > :20:24.This puts power in the hands of GPs to commission the services that

:20:25. > :20:30.patients need. As a constituenty MP, I am sure Stephen has a different

:20:30. > :20:34.experience, I am not experiencing in my postbag in terms of people

:20:34. > :20:38.saying this is a distraction... heard Conservative MPs who are

:20:38. > :20:41.worried about the effect of taking that money out at the same time.

:20:41. > :20:45.constituency, including people who have been involved with this

:20:45. > :20:50.clinical commissioning the Government says it's based on the

:20:50. > :20:54.evidence is 98% of GPs are opposed, yet it's supposed to be putting

:20:54. > :20:57.more power. It's been rushed and the Government need to go back to

:20:57. > :21:00.the drawing board. You think it should be scrapped altogether?

:21:00. > :21:07.can't see how this Bill can be salvaged. It's been changed

:21:07. > :21:12.funmently. That's part of the problem, you have the combination...

:21:12. > :21:15.Norman Warner said �20 billion is being taken out of the system as

:21:15. > :21:19.well as a reorganisation, so it's a waste of money on the

:21:19. > :21:22.reorganisation at a time when when services are being cut. It would be

:21:23. > :21:26.much better to work together on a cross-party base which is doctors

:21:26. > :21:33.and nurses to make clinical-based practices actually work which they

:21:33. > :21:38.could do. It will be in the end down to what the Liberal Democrats

:21:38. > :21:41.do, won't it in terms of numbers and politics? Yes, I think it will.

:21:42. > :21:46.I think, you know, in general, yes, the Bill will go through and I

:21:46. > :21:52.think the amendments, I haven't seen the amendments, but they're

:21:52. > :21:57.technical amendments as as -- as I understand it, people are much

:21:57. > :22:01.clearer. It has been - again what the Prime Minister said at PMQs,

:22:01. > :22:05.you will always get opposition to reform, and then once it goes

:22:05. > :22:14.through people will adapt it, but I think will produce a simpler system

:22:14. > :22:18.and for me the key is giving power to GPs. After After - some of the

:22:18. > :22:26.colleges are against it. Despite that, it will still go through,

:22:26. > :22:32.probably. Someone has tweeted that you demand

:22:32. > :22:41.fresh fruit and cab both ways when you appear on the BBC. Is it true?

:22:41. > :22:45.No, in fact, we don't get cars at all now. We inherited a �300,000

:22:45. > :22:52.bill from the last four Labour Ministers who were in there.

:22:52. > :22:58.BBC would be paying for the cab? walked here. You can categorically

:22:58. > :23:06.deny that? Yes, I walked here. Forget about hug a hoody, the

:23:06. > :23:16.latest policy is to deknight a hoody. Fred Goodwin may be one of

:23:16. > :23:16.

:23:16. > :23:21.few. History is full of Sirs who perhaps should have been

:23:21. > :23:28.dishonoured as well. Giles has been looking at when knights go bad.

:23:28. > :23:38.The idea of the bad knight is not rare, it's a caricature in medieval

:23:38. > :23:42.history, but some titled terrors really do stand out. In 11 70 Sirs

:23:42. > :23:47.hacked at the head of an Archbishop, and redecorated the cathedral with

:23:47. > :23:51.the insides. And murder is no stranger to knights of the Realm.

:23:51. > :23:55.Sir James confessed to the murder of the Princes in the tower, in

:23:55. > :24:00.1483. Although he might have been tortured. No, I don't mean he was

:24:00. > :24:05.racked with guilt. Frankly, France sis is a bad name if you want a

:24:05. > :24:10.good night. Sir Francis in the 1570s was a shifty but effective

:24:10. > :24:16.chief spook for Elizabeth I Sir Francis Bacon's life ended in

:24:16. > :24:21.disgrey, barred for bribery. And Sir Francis Drake was a killer,

:24:21. > :24:24.thief and slave trader. In the 17th century Sir Henry Morgan proved the

:24:25. > :24:31.rule if you mug and kill someone on land you are a thief and if you are

:24:31. > :24:37.at sea and they're Spanish you are a hero. Sir Roger Casement was

:24:37. > :24:42.convicted of spying. He was stripped of his honour and executed.

:24:42. > :24:46.And a spot of Soviet spookery, led Mrs Mrs Thatch tore remove the

:24:46. > :24:51.knighthood on Sir Anthony Blunt, the lesson being murder might be

:24:51. > :24:55.bad, but it's spying that actually gets you stripped of your honours.

:24:55. > :25:00.Bluntly put, a spot of regal sword play on the Commons shoulder might

:25:00. > :25:04.make a Sir but doesn't necessarily make a noble human being. We are

:25:04. > :25:09.joined now by the historian Dan Snow. Welcome to the show. Good to

:25:09. > :25:12.see you. Was Fred Goodwin in the wrong time,

:25:12. > :25:17.the wrong place, the wrong era? think he was, what's interesting

:25:17. > :25:22.about that piece there it shows sometimes knights are denobled,

:25:22. > :25:25.whatever the word is, for evil deeds, but often it's because their

:25:25. > :25:32.politics, they fall out with the people in charge. Of course, James

:25:32. > :25:35.I decided Sir Walter wasn't his cup of tea and and he was far too

:25:35. > :25:39.towards the Spanish, he got in trouble, he was executed. Most of

:25:39. > :25:43.the time, unfortunately, they find themselves being Lorded by one

:25:43. > :25:47.regime, the regime changes, or circumstances change and events

:25:47. > :25:52.change, and like Fred, you find yourself on the receiving end of

:25:52. > :25:57.some punishment. We have moved a long way from medieval times when

:25:57. > :26:01.knights were supposed to live by a code. I don't think that many who

:26:01. > :26:07.are called Sir this and that these days live by that kind of code, do

:26:07. > :26:12.they? Of course, arguably that code is a massive spin exercise, anyway.

:26:12. > :26:17.Of course, the basis of knights, in fact, was probably around 9th and

:26:17. > :26:20.10th century France where thugish provinesal war Lords emerge and

:26:21. > :26:24.they become knights, they exercise local power and they have an uneasy

:26:24. > :26:27.relationship with a central Government that they hold land in

:26:27. > :26:31.return for vague service to the Crown. It's only later in the

:26:31. > :26:34.middle ages people start saying if you are going to be one of these

:26:34. > :26:38.thugish locals cow be nice to people and women and children and

:26:38. > :26:42.stuff like that. British history is littered with - don't forget,

:26:42. > :26:46.perhaps the greatest knight of them all, Sir Winston Churchill, a man

:26:46. > :26:49.who took risks, he risked the entire future of Britain and The

:26:49. > :26:55.Empire, possibly the entire future of western civilisation of his

:26:55. > :26:58.tkpapl bell of stopping Hitler. Bomber Harris was knighted after

:26:58. > :27:03.effectively incinerating a huge number of Germans during the war.

:27:03. > :27:12.It's not necessarily the deeds that are notable about these knights and

:27:12. > :27:16.Fred took great risks whilst he was at RBS, bomb is Harris, Churchill.

:27:16. > :27:20.What I have been watching the last few days, frankly it all comes down

:27:20. > :27:25.to luck F you are on the right side of events you are going to do fine.

:27:25. > :27:30.It reminds me of Napoleon, who asked off his Generals, are they

:27:30. > :27:34.lucky? Do you think in the 21st century we should be still spraying

:27:34. > :27:39.around these knighthoods? Shouldn't we get rid of it altogether or keep

:27:39. > :27:46.it for the truly exceptional, like a Winston Churchill, so you only

:27:46. > :27:49.have maybe about 20 knights at any one time? Like the knights of the

:27:49. > :27:54.Garter, for example, which is an extraordinary extraordinary

:27:54. > :28:00.medieval hangover that's survived. Possibly, our hopb honours system

:28:00. > :28:03.is slightly absurd, but as - people the point is people will be feted

:28:03. > :28:06.and if it's not knighthoods, it will be some other way, Chancellors

:28:06. > :28:12.of the university or whatever it might be and then events will

:28:12. > :28:20.change, luck will change, decisions that were welcomed in different

:28:20. > :28:26.circumstances will now look completely inabgriesic. It won't be

:28:26. > :28:31.long, Sir Dan. Fingers crossed! will put a word in for you, that

:28:31. > :28:37.will make sure you never get it! Time to give you the answer to

:28:38. > :28:43.Guess the Year. 1979. The road hauliers strike was the clue. You

:28:43. > :28:50.can pick the winner, Ed Vaizey. Stephen guessed the year.

:28:50. > :28:54.haven't that much time to be polite! Politicians! Cameron