08/02/2012

:00:42. > :00:46.Morning, folks, welcome to the Daily Politics. Today, we are only

:00:46. > :00:50.mid- banker bashing season, but the Chancellor thinks it has already

:00:50. > :00:55.gone too far. Is Britain in danger of becoming the enemy of business?

:00:55. > :00:59.The Health Secretary is under fire over his NHS reforms. Number 10

:00:59. > :01:04.insists that Andrew Lansley and his bill will survive.

:01:04. > :01:07.As the temperature outside goes down, the elderly turn it up inside,

:01:08. > :01:13.but should more affluent pensioners get extra payments from government?

:01:13. > :01:16.Ann Widdecombe is here to explain why she is giving her as a way.

:01:16. > :01:24.And why everyone from the Prime Minister down is going nuts for

:01:24. > :01:29.everything Nordic. All that in the next 90 minutes of

:01:30. > :01:36.cockle warming TV this freezing February morning. Are your cockles

:01:36. > :01:40.suitably warmed? Not yet. It takes a lot to warm her cockles.

:01:40. > :01:45.Providing the heat on your electronic hearth are Labour's Liz

:01:45. > :01:48.Kendall, the Shadow Health minister. And the International Development

:01:48. > :01:53.Minister, who just can't give his money away. He has responsibility

:01:53. > :02:01.for the Caribbean, among other places. Alan Duncan. Surprised you

:02:01. > :02:04.are not there. First, is and anti-business culture

:02:04. > :02:07.developing in the UK? The Chancellor George Osborne warned

:02:07. > :02:12.last night that the row over bonuses and pay threatened to

:02:12. > :02:14.undermine jobs and prosperity in a free-market economy, and he

:02:14. > :02:20.defended the principles of rewards for success. His comments come in

:02:20. > :02:24.the wake of last week's furore over a proposed bonus payment of almost

:02:24. > :02:28.�1 million to the chief executive of state-owned RBS bank Stephen

:02:28. > :02:33.Hester. Mr Hester, who eventually turned down the bonus, was on Radio

:02:33. > :02:38.4's Today programme this morning. The central question that I am

:02:38. > :02:41.charged with is how to make a commercial success of RBS. And one

:02:41. > :02:45.of the central questions for society is not how we divide the

:02:45. > :02:51.pride but whether we have a prior tour. How do we get economic growth

:02:51. > :02:54.and how do we be successful? The question is not how we divide the

:02:54. > :03:04.pie, but whether we have a pie at all.

:03:04. > :03:04.

:03:04. > :03:08.A last night, George Osborne said he wanted to fight an anti-business

:03:08. > :03:12.culture. There is a distinction between Steve Goodwin -- Fred

:03:12. > :03:17.Goodwin and Stephen Hester. This man, Stephen Hester, was not in

:03:17. > :03:21.banking before. He was taken on to clear up the mess and he should be

:03:21. > :03:26.rewarded if he is successful. We want RBS to be back in private

:03:26. > :03:31.hands and put in money back into the coffers. When it comes to

:03:31. > :03:35.higher earners, 1% of income taxpayers pay 28% of the income tax

:03:35. > :03:40.intake. So should you have taken his bonus? I think the bonuses

:03:40. > :03:44.should not be in cash, but in shares, invested over a number of

:03:44. > :03:48.years so that they are not just a short-term reward for short-term

:03:48. > :03:54.success. Did you agree that he should not take it on this

:03:54. > :03:58.occasion? What a good guy. He said, I am not going to take it. One can

:03:58. > :04:01.hear from the tone of the interview this morning that we should not

:04:01. > :04:06.underestimate the pressure we put people under when there is a sudden

:04:06. > :04:11.press attack on them over so many days. This is the good guy who is

:04:11. > :04:14.trying to put things right. Then why did the Government have not

:04:14. > :04:20.defend him at the time? As you say, there is a distinction between

:04:20. > :04:26.Stephen Hester and Fred Goodwin. Why did someone not say, let him

:04:26. > :04:31.have his bonus? Were did defend him. That is not quite true. David

:04:31. > :04:37.Cameron said not to take the bonus. We do not want anyone to take a

:04:37. > :04:41.cash bonus. His bonus was shares. It was never to be a cash bonus.

:04:41. > :04:45.have to be sensitive at a time of austerity when many are finding it

:04:45. > :04:49.difficult to pay their bills about how something like this, in the

:04:49. > :04:53.eyes of the public, can look excessive. In my view, we want to

:04:53. > :04:57.reward these people over the long term for successfully turning

:04:57. > :05:01.around a bank that became a disaster. That would be good for

:05:01. > :05:06.the country and the business image of Britain is important, because if

:05:06. > :05:09.we do not attract businesses, we will not get the growth we need.

:05:09. > :05:13.Labour claimed that this was their success and that they persuaded

:05:13. > :05:19.Stephen Hester to waive his bonus. No one in Labour talked about

:05:19. > :05:24.bonuses or people waving them when they were in government. I actually

:05:24. > :05:29.think the issue of bonuses is related to a very pro-business

:05:29. > :05:33.agenda about how we get our economy growing again. If I think about the

:05:33. > :05:37.small businesses in my constituency, one of the things they regularly

:05:37. > :05:41.raised is the fact that banks are not lending. It was interesting

:05:41. > :05:46.that Robert Jenkins, a member of the Bank of England's financial

:05:46. > :05:50.policy committee, told the Treasury Select Committee recently that for

:05:50. > :05:56.every �1 billion less in bonuses, that could translate into �20

:05:56. > :05:59.billion worth of lending to small businesses. We need to promote and

:05:59. > :06:04.champion our entrepreneurial businesses to get the country

:06:04. > :06:08.growing again. This is not an anti- business agenda, but a pro-business

:06:08. > :06:12.agenda. But do you accept that it is only in difficult times that

:06:12. > :06:19.people are talking about bonuses? You did not care at the time when

:06:19. > :06:23.things were going well. We did have a bankers' bonus tax. But before

:06:23. > :06:27.that, it was all about light touch regulation, according to Ed Balls.

:06:28. > :06:33.The Conservative Party would have wanted even more of a light touch

:06:33. > :06:36.regulatory approach. In the future, we need to look at how we have a

:06:36. > :06:43.system where people are rewarded for success, but bonuses are about

:06:43. > :06:50.exceptional success. She under Labour, even when RBS had bitten

:06:50. > :06:57.the dust, the bonus pot approved by the then Labour government was �1.3

:06:57. > :07:01.billion. They have completely changed their tune. In 2009, the

:07:01. > :07:05.Walker review looked into bankers' bonuses. It talked about there

:07:05. > :07:12.being far greater transparency in the remuneration of people working

:07:12. > :07:16.in banks. The Government have not taken action on that. Do you want

:07:16. > :07:20.to see chief executives of state- owned and part-owned companies

:07:21. > :07:25.beyond Network Rail and RBS, do you want the Government to look at

:07:25. > :07:28.their bonuses and say they cannot take them? A big bonuses should

:07:28. > :07:32.exist, but the genuinely exceptional performance. But should

:07:32. > :07:37.we be looking at state-owned companies? We need to look at

:07:37. > :07:41.bonuses across the board, particularly in backs. What are we

:07:41. > :07:45.trying to achieve here? We are trying to achieve a banking system

:07:45. > :07:50.where exceptional success is rewarded. But we have to get them

:07:50. > :07:53.lending again. How do we move our banking system forward so that it

:07:53. > :07:58.promotes jobs? Do you think it is helpful to talk about predators and

:07:58. > :08:04.producers? Does that not sound and the business? Be is important to

:08:04. > :08:10.talk about how we get responsible businesses. I think Ed has helped

:08:10. > :08:14.set the agenda here. When he first gave his speech at party conference,

:08:14. > :08:20.raising these issues about what responsible capitalism looked like,

:08:20. > :08:24.he was pooh-poohed by the press and others. It does look as if the

:08:24. > :08:29.coalition government has followed his lead. I think the Ed Miliband

:08:29. > :08:32.approach to this, in many things he is very rational. And that is good.

:08:32. > :08:37.But because he has been in a slightly desperate position with

:08:37. > :08:43.his leadership, he has rather whipped up hatred to garner support

:08:43. > :08:49.for himself. He has regularly been making this point since he became

:08:49. > :08:54.leader. If Labour goes on about growth, fair enough. But you have

:08:54. > :08:57.to have a successful business community.

:08:57. > :09:00.The coalition came to power determined that it would not make

:09:00. > :09:04.the same mistakes as the last government by becoming embroiled in

:09:04. > :09:07.was in the Middle East. But that was before the Arab Spring, and

:09:07. > :09:10.particularly the rebellion in Libya. Now there are questions about

:09:10. > :09:18.whether elements of the successful operation in Libya could be

:09:18. > :09:22.replicated in Syria. Libya provided a template for

:09:22. > :09:27.successful intervention. Make sure any action has UN backing. Allow

:09:27. > :09:29.local rebels to take the lead, with foreign air support and equipment.

:09:29. > :09:33.And limit the involvement of Western military forces. Fighting

:09:33. > :09:39.in Libya went on longer than some expected, but basically everything

:09:39. > :09:43.went according to plan. You showed the world you could get rid of a

:09:43. > :09:47.dictator and choose freedom. worsening situation in Syria has

:09:47. > :09:51.led to demands for more of the same. It seems as though Nicolas Sarkozy

:09:51. > :09:56.would like to see a repeat of the success in Libya. The EU has

:09:56. > :09:59.strengthened Scots' actions. France wants to establish a contact group

:09:59. > :10:03.of supportive countries, and there is talk of arming rebels. But with

:10:03. > :10:08.Russia and China vetoing un resolutions, it is not clear what

:10:08. > :10:12.can be achieved. Then there is Iran. Again, sanctions have been imposed,

:10:12. > :10:17.including an EU or embargo, which Iran is threatening to respond to

:10:17. > :10:21.by closing the Straits of Hormuz, a crucial area for oil tankers. With

:10:21. > :10:25.the prospect of unilateral action from Israel, how should Britain and

:10:25. > :10:30.the rest of the international community respond?

:10:30. > :10:34.Alan Duncan, as a result of the apparent success in Libya with our

:10:34. > :10:37.intervention, are you worried that that has made some people in your

:10:37. > :10:43.government more interventionist mine did? At do not think so. Even

:10:43. > :10:49.in Libya, we were cautious. It was a no-fly zone supported by a UN

:10:49. > :10:55.resolution. Most of the rebellion activity came from within.

:10:55. > :11:00.Crucially, differently from Syria, everything depended on Gaddafi, the

:11:00. > :11:05.man. The regime in Syria is more complicated. President Assad, who

:11:05. > :11:13.has become very nasty, was almost accidental President upon the death

:11:13. > :11:17.of his father. Behind him is a much more nasty group of people. I think

:11:17. > :11:20.Syria is different from Libya. Libya was a great success and a

:11:20. > :11:27.real feather in the cap for the Prime Minister. He stuck his neck

:11:27. > :11:32.out when others mocked him. Did you agree? Yes, I did. There are a

:11:32. > :11:35.number of neo- Conservatives in the government who do not agree.

:11:35. > :11:44.Setting aside that distinction about whether you are Rania

:11:44. > :11:49.Conservative or not, I am not -- I am not a neo- conservative. But I

:11:49. > :11:55.do not think the Libyan no-fly zone and conflict can be defined as

:11:55. > :12:00.being either near a Conservative or not. It was the right thing to do.

:12:00. > :12:03.And I think the revolution in Libya was generated from within. Now we

:12:03. > :12:09.see what was going on, thank goodness it was. Syria is more

:12:09. > :12:16.difficult. Iran is very complicated. You touched on oil sanctions. They

:12:16. > :12:24.are now beginning to bite in Iran. You mean the not buying of Iranian

:12:24. > :12:29.oil? Yes. It is not a total blockade of all of their exports,

:12:29. > :12:35.but it is affecting their revenues and their economy. The more

:12:35. > :12:39.targeted sanctions on people and money are biting effectively. It is

:12:39. > :12:45.the right thing to do on a round, whose belligerence and reckless

:12:45. > :12:51.talk about nuclear weapons is a danger to the world. Is there

:12:51. > :12:55.anything practical we can do in Syria now? It is extremely

:12:55. > :13:01.difficult. It is difficult even to work out what the dividing lines

:13:01. > :13:05.are in terms of who are fighting room and what the differences are.

:13:05. > :13:08.I accept that the regime is fighting its own people. It is

:13:08. > :13:13.difficult to do anything when you do not have a UN resolution, as we

:13:13. > :13:20.had in Libya. If it is blocked by the Russians and Chinese, there is

:13:20. > :13:27.no framework of law within which we might be able to act. It is the

:13:27. > :13:30.biggest difficulty in the Near Room at least. Horrid and awkward that

:13:30. > :13:34.we appear to be helpless, but we can only behave within the

:13:34. > :13:44.framework of international law. There is no real morality in

:13:44. > :13:47.depending on the UN, though. There is no morality if you are dependent

:13:47. > :13:52.in the end on two dictatorships called Russia and China. There is

:13:52. > :13:55.morality when it permits you to do something. Buff -- but if it does

:13:55. > :14:01.not reach that collective decision, it can block what might otherwise

:14:01. > :14:05.be regarded as moral action. That is the problem with the UN. It

:14:05. > :14:08.requires collective consensual and Dortmund. Which means that

:14:08. > :14:12.sometimes, you need the support of the bad guys, governments which are

:14:12. > :14:17.good at redressing their own people, Russia and China. They do not care

:14:17. > :14:21.if another government is repressing its own people. You are right, it

:14:21. > :14:25.does sometimes require the support of people who are not entirely

:14:25. > :14:31.savoury in everything they do. But that is the nature of the United

:14:31. > :14:35.Nations. I understand that, but I was thinking that perhaps the

:14:35. > :14:38.moralistic talk of the UN should be downgraded, as there is not much

:14:38. > :14:42.morality in the UN when you have Saudi Arabia on the human rights

:14:42. > :14:47.commission and you have our policy determined by China and Russia. It

:14:47. > :14:51.may be realpolitik and it may be legal, but it is not moral by any

:14:51. > :14:55.definition I would understand. me question the tone you are

:14:55. > :15:02.adopting about the UN itself. You are somehow blaming the UN for this,

:15:02. > :15:05.when it is in fact two members of the Security Council who have

:15:06. > :15:11.rejected a necessary resolution. By all means blame them. Do not blame

:15:11. > :15:16.the UN, because that is a different phenomenon. There is bipartisan

:15:16. > :15:19.support on Syria, isn't there? I want to come back to a question

:15:19. > :15:24.you raised earlier about the practical action that can be taken.

:15:24. > :15:31.Alan is right about the difficult circumstances that there are.

:15:31. > :15:36.William Hague said in the House this week that more needs to be

:15:36. > :15:41.done working with the various opposition groups within Syria. I

:15:41. > :15:48.also think that building more support and working closely with

:15:48. > :15:52.the Arab League so that members in the region are prepared not only to

:15:52. > :15:56.support proper steps towards democracy, but play a role in that,

:15:56. > :15:59.that is important, as well as continuing to work with our

:15:59. > :16:04.European and wider international colleagues. We have discussions

:16:04. > :16:08.between America and Turkey taking place. It is important to see what

:16:08. > :16:18.more turkey can do. There are practical steps, though it is

:16:18. > :16:18.

:16:18. > :16:24.You may have to get the Arab League to become democratic since I don't

:16:24. > :16:29.think there is a democracy... Yesterday papers were full of

:16:29. > :16:32.speculation about the future of Andrew Lansley and his Health and

:16:32. > :16:37.Social Care Bill. There is support from Number Ten today as the Bill

:16:37. > :16:45.goes back to the House of Lords today where it is it is expected to

:16:45. > :16:50.face opposition from peers. Andrew Lansley's reforms of the NHS

:16:50. > :16:54.have under gone major problems. He introduced over 100 amendments to

:16:54. > :17:00.the Bill last yeebg. The Health Secretary had to broaden the role

:17:00. > :17:04.of the regulator by replacing its duty to promote competition. Nurses

:17:04. > :17:07.and other healthcare professionals will be able to take up roles on

:17:07. > :17:11.commissioning bodies. And the Health Secretary, himself, will

:17:11. > :17:16.remain responsible for the delivery of healthcare, something which many

:17:16. > :17:19.peers were concerned about. The trouble is the surgeries failed to

:17:19. > :17:23.cure the original complaints from many Liberal Democrats, cross-

:17:23. > :17:26.benchers and Labour peer in the Lords. Now the Bill is coming under

:17:26. > :17:30.attack from bodies and MPs that previously supported it. They are

:17:31. > :17:40.claiming the surgeries remove the guts from the Bill. The Financial

:17:41. > :17:42.

:17:42. > :17:48.Times quotes worried Conservative Thank you, Jo.

:17:48. > :17:55.We are joined by David Owen. Welcome back to the programme. Alan

:17:55. > :18:00.Duncan, one of your backbenchers is quoted as saying, "we could end up

:18:00. > :18:03.as the party that messed up the NHS.". We are doing our best to

:18:03. > :18:08.shape the NHS for the future needs of the country that we can see with

:18:08. > :18:12.a greater focus on elderly care and on community community need and to

:18:12. > :18:16.try and empower GPs to be able to commission what they think is best

:18:16. > :18:20.needed for their patients is what this Bill is all about. It is

:18:20. > :18:25.taking out a layer of administration, people so often

:18:25. > :18:30.complain about there being too many managers and not enough doctors.

:18:30. > :18:35.You put more layers in. The Bill is so complex, it changed so much.

:18:35. > :18:38.Over 100 amendments last week, 1,000 in total since it was

:18:38. > :18:45.presented. It has just become a mess? Well, a lot of Bills have

:18:45. > :18:49.many, many amendments so that's not exactly unprecedented. The whole

:18:49. > :18:52.process of amendment is designed to improve legislation and we should

:18:52. > :18:56.welcome anything that genuinely does improve the legislation and

:18:57. > :19:00.the House of Lords today will start its report stage and I have to say

:19:00. > :19:05.the Lords is often, it looks at legislation better than we do in

:19:05. > :19:08.the Commons. So we have got to look at what they say and take a view

:19:08. > :19:15.about whether it will improve the legislation.

:19:15. > :19:20.Even the the few leading clinicians who supported your Bill, they say

:19:20. > :19:24.as a result of the changes you made, it is a dog's breakfast.

:19:25. > :19:29.reforming piece of legislation, you know, upsets existing ways of

:19:29. > :19:32.behaving and therefore, is invariably going to provoke more

:19:32. > :19:35.opposition than support and that is where we are with this Bill at the

:19:35. > :19:41.moment. Andrew Lansley should be taken out

:19:41. > :19:45.and shot, he messed up the communication and substance of the

:19:45. > :19:47.policy. That's from Downing Street. I don't think that would be from

:19:47. > :19:54.Downing Street. It is from Downing Street.

:19:54. > :20:02.And it is it is not a comment comment with which I agree.

:20:02. > :20:11.I wonder when you fought the last election when you had what was in

:20:11. > :20:14.store. I interviewed Andrew Lansley and I had no idea this was coming.

:20:14. > :20:20.The House of Commons and House of Lords is paid to examine the

:20:20. > :20:24.legislation and try and make it as It has been massively changed.

:20:24. > :20:29.There is deep unhappy about it, but it looks with the Prime Minister

:20:29. > :20:35.backing the Health Secretary, it is going to happen? Well, I hope it

:20:35. > :20:38.doesn't. I only think the Prime Minister can stop it. He did stop

:20:39. > :20:42.forestry. People thought it would be a big blow. It was forgotten

:20:42. > :20:46.within days. Actually, I had forgotten it until you mentioned

:20:46. > :20:50.it! If he did it, the NHS would rally because there are many

:20:50. > :20:55.reforms which they are committed to under the existing legislation you

:20:55. > :21:01.could do, Stephen Dorrell said they didn't need this. It is a massive

:21:01. > :21:05.legislation. Far bigger than the original original Health Service

:21:05. > :21:08.Act. They promise nod top down reorganisation, this is the mother

:21:08. > :21:13.and father of a top down reorganisation and now they are

:21:13. > :21:18.saying this argument that because it has gone so far, they can't stop

:21:18. > :21:21.it. But it will cause chaos, but they have broken all the

:21:21. > :21:25.conventions which exist in the House of Commons for many, many

:21:25. > :21:30.decades. You can implement some of the legislation after second

:21:30. > :21:34.reading, but you cannot pre-empt the democratic process, what they

:21:34. > :21:38.have done is pre-empt the democratic process and it is a

:21:38. > :21:42.profound constitutional issue here. And you believe a number of reforms

:21:42. > :21:46.which you would be consider to be worthwhile reforms to improve the

:21:46. > :21:49.NHS could go ahead without this Bill? Well, you are a young man,

:21:49. > :21:55.but you will remember when I was involved with the Health Service

:21:55. > :21:59.and then with the SDP, I was the architect of the internal market, I

:21:59. > :22:03.sometimes regret it now, but the internal market was an attempt to

:22:03. > :22:05.get the cost effective pressures that every Health Service has to

:22:05. > :22:09.have. This is a rationed Health Service. But it is a popular

:22:09. > :22:14.service. It is rationed because most people think it is democratic

:22:14. > :22:19.and fair. One of the other big issues is pulling out the role of

:22:19. > :22:22.Government and putting in quangos. This quango, the National Health

:22:22. > :22:27.Service commissioning board is the biggest quango that has been

:22:27. > :22:31.created. This was a Government, a lot of people agreed, was going to

:22:31. > :22:35.get rid of quangos. That was the point I made to you.

:22:35. > :22:40.You created the biggest quango in an attempt to keep the show on the

:22:40. > :22:44.road? I see in my own constituency GPs

:22:44. > :22:48.preparing for this. I don't think certainly in the case I have seen

:22:48. > :22:55.that they are pre-empting the legislation in the way that David

:22:55. > :23:00.Owen suggests and I think think their preparedness is enthusiastic

:23:00. > :23:05.to assume... David Owen's point is that a lot of that could be done

:23:05. > :23:10.without the Bill? The Royal College of General Practitioners are not

:23:10. > :23:16.involved in pay or pensions against the Government. They have come out

:23:16. > :23:23.against it. It is unprecedented for the NHS to be so critical.

:23:23. > :23:30.We know Labour is against it. We know your leader would like the

:23:30. > :23:35.Bill could be withdrawn, but does Labour have a policy for reforming

:23:35. > :23:38.the Health Service? Absolutely, we need as our population increases

:23:38. > :23:42.and we have more people living with long-term and chronic conditions,

:23:42. > :23:46.we need to put a greater emphasis on services in the community and in

:23:46. > :23:50.people's homes and making sure the NHS and local council services for

:23:50. > :23:53.older people work closely together. That's the subject of the Health

:23:53. > :23:59.Select Committee's report on social care out today and what is very

:23:59. > :24:02.interesting that report says some of the best example of integration

:24:02. > :24:05.have been delivered by organisations that pool the money

:24:05. > :24:09.and the staff together. They are going to be swept away by this

:24:09. > :24:12.Health Bill. We are going to see major changes

:24:12. > :24:16.in hospital services. We have got to have an information that

:24:16. > :24:21.delivers more with less money. The way to do that is not to set all

:24:21. > :24:24.the parts of the system against one another and it is not to have a

:24:24. > :24:29.massive distracting wasteful information reorganisation. Let's

:24:29. > :24:33.be clear, the Government's plans now include at least five layers of

:24:33. > :24:38.management in the NHS. That's not what Tory backbenchers supported.

:24:38. > :24:42.It is going to cost billions of pounds. It is a big distraction and

:24:42. > :24:47.patient care is already suffering with waiting time going up. That is

:24:47. > :24:50.why this Bill is such a disast are, not because we are against change,

:24:50. > :24:55.but because this won't help us make the changes we really need to see.

:24:55. > :24:59.Five layers of management. They will soon catch up with the BBC!

:24:59. > :25:02.David Owen, it looks like the Lib Dem peers are swinging into line

:25:02. > :25:09.behind the Government. Is it a lost cause for you? The House of Lords

:25:09. > :25:13.doesn't have the right to stop a Bill because they find this

:25:13. > :25:18.politically disvan tainlgous. They are allowed to reform it. It is a

:25:18. > :25:21.whipped Bill and there is no doubt when the whips of of Liberal

:25:21. > :25:25.Democrat peers and Conservatives, they can force it through as they

:25:25. > :25:29.did in the House of Commons. I think we have to reluctantly say

:25:29. > :25:33.only the people of this country by writing to the Prime Minister and

:25:33. > :25:40.saying to him, "You said a very different message to us in the last

:25:40. > :25:44.election and why have you made this change? Admit it is a mistake." His

:25:44. > :25:47.own adviser said it was a tactic, this pause which they introduced

:25:47. > :25:51.into the summer. They nearly got away with it and suddenly the

:25:51. > :25:55.medical profession which is slow, you know, the non political element

:25:55. > :26:00.to stir has realised this Bill is a disaster.

:26:00. > :26:10.We have to leave there. You should come back and see us more often.

:26:10. > :26:10.

:26:10. > :26:14.Oh, it is me! I'm going to do this!

:26:14. > :26:18.Now, there is con son nation across middle Britain. Teapot sales have

:26:18. > :26:22.fallen by 40% over the past five years. I will have more difficulty

:26:22. > :26:30.pouring the tea. Instead of making a proper cup of tea with tea,

:26:30. > :26:35.leaves, pot and strainer and milk added after, never before the tea.

:26:35. > :26:43.Brits are taking to brewing their tea in a mug using a teabag, heaven

:26:43. > :26:48.forbid! Fret, not it is a storm in the

:26:48. > :26:55.teapot. The tea can be brewed in a Daily

:26:55. > :27:00.Politics mug! It transforms builder's tea into something

:27:00. > :27:03.sublime! At least that's what run of the runners on this programme

:27:03. > :27:09.told me! If you pay attention, you could win

:27:09. > :27:16.one! After all that, we remind you how to enter in a moment. Let's see

:27:16. > :27:20.if you can remember when this # Let's get in the mood

:27:20. > :27:26.# A real groovy mood # Let's have a party party

:27:26. > :27:36.# Let's get in the mood # A real groovy mood to have a

:27:36. > :27:44.

:27:44. > :27:54.# I've got a man crazy for me # I believe that for every drop of

:27:54. > :28:04.rain that falls, a flower grows # My my worry throughout the assent

:28:04. > :28:16.

:28:16. > :28:26.was the question of the supply of Everybody in Britain hopes the

:28:26. > :28:35.

:28:36. > :28:39.Ashes aren't in a hurry to leave I think that was from Half a

:28:39. > :28:46.sixpence. To be in with a chance to win a mug,

:28:46. > :28:56.You can see the full terms and conditions for Guess The Year on

:28:56. > :28:57.

:28:57. > :29:02.It is, ing up to -- it is coming up to midday. Let's look at Big Ben.

:29:02. > :29:05.I'm told it is bitterly cold across the nation. It can only mean one

:29:05. > :29:10.thing, it is Wednesday and Prime Minister's Questions question and

:29:10. > :29:15.it is also Nick Robinson. Nick, is health a big issue? Ed Miliband has

:29:15. > :29:18.been trying to get this story going. Each week reading out a list of the

:29:18. > :29:25.bodies opposed to the Health Bill. He will be be able to read out

:29:25. > :29:32.another, there is another health body against it. The story is

:29:32. > :29:38.embargoed until 12.15! I can't tell you which body at the moment.

:29:38. > :29:41.Break the embargo? That would be shocking. Parliament is covered by

:29:42. > :29:46.embargo rules. It comes a day after, I know you were talking about the

:29:46. > :29:52.article in the in the Times that suggested someone inside Number Ten

:29:52. > :29:59.wanted Andrew Lansley to be taken out and shot... Yes, I put that to

:29:59. > :30:04.Mr Mr Duncan. And presumably not patched by the men and women of the

:30:04. > :30:07.NHS whom we owe so much. With Andrew Lansley's poor presentation

:30:07. > :30:10.of the Bill and people looking for a sign that the Bill is going to be

:30:10. > :30:13.scrapped, always a possibility because even supporters of the

:30:13. > :30:17.reforms argued that some of it could be done without legislation.

:30:18. > :30:24.. David Owen was saying that. You get people who are both opposed

:30:24. > :30:31.to the Bill who say scrap the Bill and you get people in favour of

:30:31. > :30:34.elements who say scrap the Bill. Yesterday, the firmest, clearest

:30:34. > :30:39.briefing you could have got that not just David Cameron, but Nick

:30:39. > :30:43.Clegg after a meeting that the two had with Andrew Lansley know they

:30:43. > :30:47.want to plough on. They want to stick to the Bill and that given

:30:47. > :30:54.two opportunities to as it were to politically go out and shoot Andrew

:30:54. > :31:01.Lansley, the resignation of Chris Huhne and the resignation of Liam

:31:01. > :31:06.Fox before Cristina Fernandez de Kirchner Chris Chris -- Christmas.

:31:06. > :31:09.The Prime Minister has shunned them all and says, "Plough on.". I get

:31:09. > :31:11.the impression reading the Times which is clearly a result of

:31:11. > :31:16.briefing from Downing Street, that the Prime Minister is behind it.

:31:16. > :31:26.Nick Clegg has been squared. But we will find out. Let's go over to the

:31:26. > :31:27.

:31:27. > :31:32.I am sure the house would join with me in pay tribute to her Majesty

:31:32. > :31:36.the Queen in what is an absolutely historic week marking the 60th

:31:36. > :31:39.anniversary of her accession to the throne. Her Majesty's 60 years of

:31:39. > :31:43.remarkable leadership and dedicated public service are an inspiration

:31:43. > :31:49.to us all and something the whole country and Commonwealth can be

:31:49. > :31:52.proud of. Members will obviously have the opportunity to pay

:31:52. > :31:55.individual attributes during the humble Address debate on 7th March.

:31:55. > :31:59.This morning amid ministerial colleagues and others and in

:31:59. > :32:05.addition to my duties in this House, I shall have further such meetings

:32:05. > :32:14.later today. Mr Speaker, I am sure the whole house, not least myself,

:32:14. > :32:22.will join the Prime Minister in his warm tribute to her Majesty. Mr

:32:22. > :32:28.Speaker, last March, the Prime police officers. Can the Prime

:32:28. > :32:33.Minister now confirm that frontline officer numbers have been cut in 14

:32:33. > :32:42.out of 43 police forces? proportion of officers on the

:32:42. > :32:46.frontline is up. I am sure he will want to join me in congratulating

:32:46. > :32:50.mayor Boris Johnson on his excellent record on crime in our

:32:50. > :32:56.capital. Total crime is down, violent crime is down on buses and

:32:56. > :33:01.tubes. 11,000 knives and guns have been taken off our streets. And

:33:01. > :33:05.there are 1000 more officers on the streets of London at the end of his

:33:05. > :33:13.term than at the beginning. That, together with his reminder of the

:33:13. > :33:19.rule of the dangers of tweeting, is a good start to the day. Does my

:33:19. > :33:21.right honourable friend share my disappointment at the overthrow

:33:21. > :33:26.yesterday of the first democratically-elected President of

:33:26. > :33:31.the Maldives in a coup d'etat? Given our historic links with the

:33:31. > :33:39.islands, will the Government, by way of a message, do all they can

:33:39. > :33:40.to ensure that no violence results and that the democratic

:33:40. > :33:45.institutions remain? My honourable friend is right. This country does

:33:45. > :33:49.have strong links with the Maldives and does has have a good

:33:49. > :33:52.relationship with the president. But the president has resigned, and

:33:52. > :33:55.we have a strong interest in the well-being of several thousand

:33:55. > :34:00.British tourists and in a stable and democratic government in the

:34:00. > :34:03.Maldives. Our High Commissioner is in the capital meeting all of the

:34:03. > :34:06.political leaders. We call on the new government to demonstrate its

:34:06. > :34:11.respect for the rights of all political parties and their members

:34:11. > :34:17.and to ensure that the constitution is upheld. We advise British

:34:18. > :34:27.tourists to advise non-essential travel and those using the airport

:34:28. > :34:28.

:34:28. > :34:31.should exercise caution. Mr Speaker, can I join the Prime

:34:31. > :34:36.Minister in pay tribute to her Majesty the Queen, as we celebrate

:34:36. > :34:41.her diamond jubilee. Her dedication to the country and public service

:34:41. > :34:45.is and inspiration and example to us all. We look forward to the

:34:45. > :34:51.official celebrations later this year, which will enable us to

:34:51. > :34:57.celebrate both her Majesty and our country. Mr Speaker, on the day the

:34:57. > :35:03.Prime Minister completed his NHS listening exercise, he said this.

:35:03. > :35:13."some of the people who work in the NHS were sceptical of our changes.

:35:13. > :35:15.

:35:15. > :35:22.Today, we are taking people with us". And it is in that spirit of

:35:22. > :35:27.unity that we want to continue. Why does he think he has failed?

:35:27. > :35:31.today, 95% of the country is covered by general practitioners

:35:31. > :35:41.who are not only supporting our reforms, they are implementing our

:35:41. > :35:43.

:35:43. > :35:51.reforms. For order. The house must calm down. There is a long way to

:35:51. > :35:56.go. Let's hear the answers. There will be plenty of time. Just today,

:35:56. > :36:00.50 Foundation trusts have written to the newspapers in support of our

:36:00. > :36:05.reforms and objecting to what Labour proposing. The signature at

:36:05. > :36:10.the top of the list, which he may not have noticed, is 1 Anne

:36:10. > :36:16.Campbell, the former Labour MP for Cambridge. She, running her local

:36:16. > :36:20.Foundation Trust, supports the reforms. That is what happens.

:36:20. > :36:25.Labour MPs leave this House and start implementing coalition policy.

:36:25. > :36:30.A Mr Speaker, even he does not believe that nonsense he just came

:36:30. > :36:36.out with. Last Friday, the Royal College of General Practitioners

:36:36. > :36:45.said this about his health bill. "it will cause irreparable damage

:36:45. > :36:55.to patient care and jeopardise the NHS." the Health Secretary is

:36:55. > :36:56.

:36:56. > :37:04.shouting from a sedentary position. It is nice to see him here. Some

:37:04. > :37:09.distance away, I notice. The Prime Minister says he wants the voice of

:37:09. > :37:13.doctors to be heard in the NHS. Why doesn't he listened to them? It is

:37:13. > :37:19.always good to get a electron happy families from the right honourable

:37:19. > :37:22.member. -- to get a lecture on Happy families from the right

:37:22. > :37:26.honourable member. I care passionately about our NHS, not

:37:26. > :37:31.least because of what it has done for my family and because of the

:37:31. > :37:35.amazing service I have received. I want to see that excellent service

:37:35. > :37:40.implemented for everyone. That means two things - we have to put

:37:40. > :37:45.more money into the NHS, and we are putting the money in. But it also

:37:45. > :37:51.means we have to reform the NHS. He used to be in favour of the reform.

:37:52. > :37:56.Let me read him this. "to safeguard the NHS in tougher fiscal times, we

:37:56. > :38:06.need sustained reform". That was in the Labour manifesto of the last

:38:06. > :38:07.

:38:07. > :38:16.election. And on the issue of Money, we are committed to �12.5 billion

:38:16. > :38:21.in this Parliament. And yet his health spokesman said "it would be

:38:21. > :38:31.irresponsible to spend more money on the NHS". They are not in favour

:38:31. > :38:32.

:38:32. > :38:36.of the money or of the reform, they are just a bunch of opportunists.

:38:36. > :38:46.Isn't this interesting? He says this is all about reform. The Tory

:38:46. > :38:47.

:38:48. > :38:53.Reform Group has come out against these proposals. It comes to

:38:53. > :39:02.something when even the Tories don't trust the Tories on the NHS.

:39:02. > :39:08.Listen to what the chair of the Royal College of GPs... Oh, Mr

:39:08. > :39:12.Speaker! So when the people they want to put at the heart of the NHS

:39:12. > :39:18.says things about the bill, they just grown. It says it all about

:39:18. > :39:22.the benches opposite. This is what she said "this bill is a burden. It

:39:22. > :39:26.makes no sense. It is incoherent. It will not deal with the big

:39:26. > :39:32.issues, and it will result in a health service that certainly will

:39:32. > :39:36.never match the health service we had 12 months ago". Mr Speaker,

:39:36. > :39:41.which part of that doesn't he understand? Let's look at what has

:39:41. > :39:46.happened to the NHS over the last 18 months. Let's look at the

:39:46. > :39:52.figures. 100,000 patients treated more every month. 4000 extra

:39:52. > :39:57.doctors since the NHS. The number of clinical staff up. The level of

:39:57. > :40:02.hospital acquired infections down. The number of people in mixed sex

:40:02. > :40:07.wards down by 94%. That is happening because you have a

:40:07. > :40:11.combination of money going in and reform. We know what happens if you

:40:12. > :40:16.do not put in the money and do not do the reform, because there is one

:40:17. > :40:21.part of the NHS that is run by Labour, and that is in Wales. So

:40:21. > :40:27.let's look at what is happening to the NHS in Wales. They have cut the

:40:27. > :40:32.money, and one-third of people are waiting longer than 18 months -- 18

:40:32. > :40:37.weeks. That is happening in Labour's NHS. If he did not have

:40:37. > :40:43.the money or the reform, it would happen here, too. I am not

:40:43. > :40:48.surprised that he is getting so agitated, because he thought the

:40:48. > :40:53.NHS was his way to modernise the Conservative Party. And I'm afraid

:40:53. > :40:58.it is coming apart. And I will tell him why, because the promises he

:40:58. > :41:05.made before the election are coming back to haunt him. We all remember

:41:05. > :41:09.that promised - no more top down reorganisation. And now he says he

:41:09. > :41:14.knows better than the doctors, better than the nurses, better than

:41:14. > :41:17.the midwives, better than the patients' associations, people who

:41:17. > :41:23.day in, day out rely on DA and devote their lives to the health

:41:23. > :41:27.service. This is a matter of trust in the Prime Minister. Can he

:41:27. > :41:33.honestly look people in the health service in the eye and say he has

:41:33. > :41:40.kept his promise of no more top- down reorganisation? We are cutting

:41:40. > :41:44.the bureaucracy in the NHS. We are taking out for �0.5 billion of

:41:44. > :41:48.bureaucracy that will be ploughed into patient care. If you do not

:41:48. > :41:53.support the reform, you will not see that money going to operations,

:41:53. > :41:57.doctors, nurses, hospitals, healthcare assistants. That is

:41:57. > :42:01.happening in the NHS. But there is one group of people I will not

:42:01. > :42:08.listen to, and that is those who ran the NHS under Labour. This is

:42:08. > :42:14.what they did - �6 billion wasted on the NHS computer. �250 million

:42:14. > :42:18.spent on private sector operations that were never carried out. We

:42:18. > :42:23.still have Private Finance Initiative agreements where we pay

:42:23. > :42:27.�300 each time someone changes a lightbulb. That is what we got from

:42:27. > :42:32.Labour. We are putting the money and the reform in. The operations

:42:32. > :42:37.are up, the waiting times are down, the NHS is improving, and that is

:42:37. > :42:43.the way it is going to stay. I will tell him about our record on the

:42:43. > :42:48.NHS. The shortest waiting times in NHS history. More doctors and

:42:48. > :42:54.nurses than ever before. The highest level of patient

:42:54. > :42:57.satisfaction ever in the health service. But everyone will have

:42:57. > :43:03.heard a Prime Minister unable to defend the promise he made, the

:43:03. > :43:07.promise of no more top-down reorganisation, a Prime Minister

:43:07. > :43:12.who has broken his word. The reality is this. All his attention

:43:12. > :43:16.is on this point was top-down reorganisation, and the frontline

:43:17. > :43:22.is suffering. The number of people waiting more than 18 weeks is up

:43:22. > :43:28.under him. A&E targets being missed, cancelled operations. Why won't he

:43:28. > :43:37.just give up and stop wasting billions and drop his bill? If the

:43:37. > :43:44.record was so good, why were they thrown out at the last election?

:43:44. > :43:52.Order! I am worried about opposition members. They must calm

:43:52. > :43:56.themselves at straightaway. Let me rind -- remind the honourable

:43:56. > :44:02.gentleman of the test he said for the reforms and the Government. He

:44:02. > :44:08.said the test was whether waiting times would come down. Let me give

:44:08. > :44:12.him the figures. In-patient waiting times - down. Out-patient waiting

:44:12. > :44:17.times, down. The number of people waiting more than a year, down to

:44:17. > :44:22.its lowest ever. The number of people waiting for six months, down

:44:22. > :44:28.to its lowest ever level. And the number of people on the waiting-

:44:28. > :44:32.list. What he said was the clear test, that is down. Even when this

:44:32. > :44:38.Labour leader moves the goalposts, he can't put it in the back of the

:44:38. > :44:43.net. Mr Speaker, the person moving the goalposts is the Prime Minister.

:44:43. > :44:48.The reality is that the key test that was set for the health service

:44:48. > :44:53.was the number of people waiting more than 18 weeks. That number is

:44:53. > :44:58.up 43% since the general election. However much he twists and turns,

:44:58. > :45:03.that is the reality. He knows in his heart of hearts that this is a

:45:03. > :45:06.complete disaster, this bill. That is why his aides are say the Health

:45:06. > :45:10.Secretary should be taken up and shot, because they know it is a

:45:10. > :45:14.disaster. The reality is that doctors know it is bad for the NHS.

:45:14. > :45:20.The nurses know it is bad for the NHS, and patients know it is bad

:45:20. > :45:24.for the NHS. Every day, he fights for this bill. Every day, trust in

:45:24. > :45:34.him on the NHS ebbs away and every day, it becomes clearer that the

:45:34. > :45:37.health service is not safe in his I got to tell him the career

:45:37. > :45:42.prospects for my right honourable friend are a lot better than his!

:45:42. > :45:46.This is not a campaign to save the NHS. This is a campaign to try and

:45:46. > :45:54.save his leadership and I make this prediction, the NHS will go on

:45:54. > :46:00.getting better and his prospects will go on getting worse.

:46:00. > :46:10.Thank you, Mr Speaker. When the work programme was introduced in

:46:10. > :46:12.

:46:12. > :46:17.Burnley in October 2010, the people inactive was 76. Would the Prime

:46:17. > :46:22.Minister congratulate the people of Burnley for that success?

:46:22. > :46:27.I certainly join my honourable friend in congratulating not only

:46:27. > :46:31.the people in Burnley, but the people con conducting the work

:46:31. > :46:35.programme because I think what we are seeing is more people becoming

:46:35. > :46:39.able to work and therefore, able to enter the workforce and to raise

:46:39. > :46:43.not only the country's living standards, but raise their own

:46:43. > :46:49.living standards too. The people of Preston are furious

:46:49. > :46:52.that the Indian Government selected a French company as the bidder for

:46:52. > :46:55.the Indian Air Force jet. The Prime Minister goes on about rebalancing

:46:55. > :47:00.the British economy. This is a major blow to manufacturing in this

:47:00. > :47:03.country. Other European leaders can go and help their companies get

:47:03. > :47:09.major contracts, why is this weak Prime Minister not doing that and

:47:09. > :47:14.why haven't we got this contract? The honourable gentleman ought to

:47:14. > :47:18.think about the fact that all European leaders are actually

:47:18. > :47:23.backing the Eurofighter project. It is a German project. It is an

:47:23. > :47:28.Italian project, a Spanish project and a British project. I am

:47:28. > :47:32.disappointed by what has happened in India, but euro fight

:47:32. > :47:39.certificate not out of the con dur euro fight certificate not out of

:47:39. > :47:45.the contest and we need to reengage to make sure we get the best deal

:47:45. > :47:48.for those who make Eurofighter. This is something that ought to

:47:48. > :47:51.unite parties in this House, getting behind our defence

:47:51. > :47:55.producers. In order that a constituent of mine could access

:47:55. > :48:00.the drugs and treatment she was entitled to under the NHS

:48:00. > :48:05.constitution, her GP, her consultant, her specialist

:48:05. > :48:11.oncologist and the Secretary of State Secretary of State for health

:48:11. > :48:15.and I had to write letters. honourable lady raises an important

:48:16. > :48:20.point, since the introduction of the Cancer Drugs Fund, 10,000 more

:48:20. > :48:29.people have been able to get cancer drugs drugs that are essential. Let

:48:29. > :48:35.me tell you one that would damage cancer drug, that's the proposal

:48:35. > :48:41.from the party opposite to cap drugs at 5%. In the Royal Marston

:48:41. > :48:45.they would have to cut by a quarter the services they deliver. What a

:48:45. > :48:50.crazy left-wing plan that only the right honourable gentleman could

:48:50. > :48:54.come up with. In three months time, just before

:48:54. > :48:59.the Olympics, Abu Qatada, a truly dangerous man will be roaming the

:48:59. > :49:04.streets of London with his mobile phone and internet access, thanks

:49:04. > :49:09.to the Prime Minister, abolishing control orders and house arrest

:49:09. > :49:14.provisions. How can the Prime Minister justify putting the

:49:14. > :49:18.public's right to life at risk in order to give over to the Liberal

:49:18. > :49:21.Democrats on their plans to demolish control orders?

:49:21. > :49:25.situation with Abu Qatada is unacceptable. As I said, I when I

:49:25. > :49:29.went to Strasbourg to make a speech in front of the Council of Europe

:49:29. > :49:33.about this, it is not acceptable that we end up with a situation, we

:49:33. > :49:36.have someone in your country, that threatens to do you harm, that you

:49:37. > :49:41.cannot try, you cannot detain and you cannot deport and that is why

:49:41. > :49:44.the Government will do everything it can, working with our Jordanian

:49:44. > :49:48.friends and allies to make sure that he can be deported and again,

:49:48. > :49:57.instead of sniping about this, the whole House ought to unite to help

:49:57. > :50:03.sort this out. Recently as last September, only a

:50:03. > :50:10.tiny handful of the 165 acute mental health, adult inpatient beds

:50:10. > :50:17.in Hampshire were vacant. Yet the trust concerned proposes to cut

:50:17. > :50:22.those 165 beds to 107, replacing them with something called a

:50:22. > :50:28.hospital at home or a virtual ward. Given that I believe that the

:50:28. > :50:33.statistics on which this is based are inconsistent and unreliable,

:50:33. > :50:36.will the Prime Minister support my call for independent experts from

:50:36. > :50:40.the Audit Commission to look at those figures before those beds are

:50:40. > :50:43.closed? Well, I think the honourable

:50:43. > :50:47.gentleman makes an important point. We are putting the extra resource

:50:47. > :50:51.into the NHS, but there need to be a clear series of tests as there

:50:51. > :50:56.are now under our plans before any facilities are changed or closed

:50:56. > :51:00.and that is about making sure there is GP back for what is proposed and

:51:00. > :51:05.making sure that any such changes will improve the health of that air

:51:05. > :51:08.casmt I will -- area. I will look at the issue he raises and ensure

:51:08. > :51:12.that the Department of Health engage with him on that.

:51:12. > :51:19.Four police authorities including one I share with the Chancellor,

:51:19. > :51:26.have just started buying Hyundai cars imported from Korea, add to

:51:26. > :51:30.that the Thameslink fiasco and Olympic tickets, when are we going

:51:30. > :51:35.to see leadership from the Prime Minister about public procurement

:51:35. > :51:40.in his country? Police forces get together and procure together to

:51:40. > :51:43.cut their costs. We have all lost count of the times of wandering

:51:43. > :51:47.through police stations and seeing countless different types of

:51:47. > :51:53.vehicle all costing a large amount of money. What the public want is

:51:53. > :51:56.police on the streets, not money spent on unnecessary procurement.

:51:56. > :52:00.The Prime Minister will have seen this morning's Select Committee

:52:00. > :52:04.report on Libya. Could my right honourable friend tell the House

:52:04. > :52:09.what steps he is taking to ensure the UK will be able to evacuate all

:52:09. > :52:15.UK nationals from conflict zones and reduce our reliance on civil

:52:15. > :52:20.charter aircraft? My honourable friend raises an important point.

:52:20. > :52:25.The Libya evacuation have brought home to us the importance of having

:52:25. > :52:28.transport aircraft in the MoD and in the RAF and I can announce today

:52:28. > :52:32.that because the Ministry of Defence's finances are better run

:52:32. > :52:38.and better managed and because we have found savings, we will be able

:52:38. > :52:42.to purchase an additional C17 for the RAF, this aircraft is becoming

:52:42. > :52:47.an brilliant work horse for the RAF in terms of bringing men and

:52:47. > :52:50.material into a war war zone like Afghanistan, but evacuating

:52:50. > :52:53.civilians in times of need. It is an important investment for the

:52:53. > :52:58.country and I am glad to announce that we can make it today.

:52:58. > :53:02.May I first of all associate myself with the tributes to Her Majesty

:53:02. > :53:06.The Queen. Yesterday, the all party

:53:06. > :53:11.independent group on stalking published its report. The Prime

:53:11. > :53:14.Minister knows about my interest in this subject and the Government

:53:14. > :53:17.consultation concluded yesterday. Will he now please meet meet with

:53:17. > :53:23.myself and a small group of all party members to discuss this

:53:23. > :53:26.urgent need for a stalking law? We do take this issue seriously. I

:53:26. > :53:29.am happy to meet with him and discuss it. I know he conversations

:53:29. > :53:34.with the Home Office. We want to get this issue right and if there

:53:34. > :53:37.is a need for legislative changes, there maybe opportunities in the

:53:37. > :53:43.next session for that criminal justice legislation and I will

:53:43. > :53:47.happily meet and talk with him about it.

:53:48. > :53:51.During apprenticeship week, I am proud to announce that a college

:53:51. > :53:57.has increased the number of apprentices from nine to 160 and

:53:57. > :54:03.the Government increased the number by 170,000 in the last year. Does

:54:03. > :54:10.my right honourable friend agree that achievements like these

:54:10. > :54:13.illustrate the importance to give apprenticeships the attention they

:54:13. > :54:18.deserve? It is one of the most important investments we can make

:54:18. > :54:22.in the future industrial base this country and helping young people is

:54:22. > :54:27.investing in apprenticeships. The number over the last year is up by

:54:27. > :54:29.60, 457,000 people starting apprenticeships and in

:54:29. > :54:32.apprenticeship week, it is important to stress what we are

:54:33. > :54:37.doing to get over the objections in the past that people had, making

:54:37. > :54:42.sure there are more apprenticeships easily had by small businesses, by

:54:42. > :54:45.the paper of a simple fee, making sure that we have more high level

:54:45. > :54:50.apprenticeships so we we show that apprenticeships are every bit as

:54:50. > :54:55.good as having a university degree and involve a university degree and

:54:55. > :55:03.cutting the bureaucracy by allowing big businesses to run the tisship

:55:03. > :55:08.schemes rather than doing it via a training provider.

:55:08. > :55:11.Why hasn't the Government launched an appeal against the Abu Qatada

:55:11. > :55:15.judgement? Aren't you being dangerously complacent, Prime

:55:15. > :55:19.Minister? We are doing everything we can to

:55:19. > :55:23.get this man out of the country. The absolutely key thing to do is

:55:24. > :55:27.an agreement with Jordan about the way that he will be treated because

:55:27. > :55:30.the European Court on Human Rights has made a very clear judgement on

:55:30. > :55:34.that. I happen to think it is the wrong judgement. I regret that

:55:34. > :55:37.judgement. This guy should have been deported years ago, but

:55:37. > :55:42.nevertheless, if we can get that agreement with Jordan, he can be on

:55:42. > :55:45.his way. Complex employment law makes small

:55:45. > :55:50.businesses nervous about hiring new staff. Would the Prime Minister

:55:50. > :55:54.agree we need a simpler alternative for our smallest firms for

:55:54. > :55:57.dismissal rules? I think my honourable friend is

:55:57. > :56:01.right to raise this issue. If every small business in the country hired

:56:01. > :56:05.an additional worker that would go a long way to curing both long-term

:56:05. > :56:08.and youth and total unemployment at one stroke. We have got to make it

:56:08. > :56:11.easier for businesses to take people on. One of the key

:56:11. > :56:15.considerations businesses have, is how difficult it is to let someone

:56:15. > :56:19.go if it doesn't work out and that's why extending to two years

:56:19. > :56:23.the amount of of time you have to work before you get access to a

:56:23. > :56:25.tribunal can make a difference in terms of small small business

:56:26. > :56:29.employment. We have heard from the Prime

:56:29. > :56:33.Minister how Italian governments and German governments are out

:56:33. > :56:37.there fighting for British jobs. Can the Prime Minister tell us

:56:37. > :56:42.exactly how many phone conversations he had directly with

:56:42. > :56:45.the Indian Prime Minister about the typhoon bid and when the last

:56:45. > :56:51.conversation actually took place? raise this issue with the Indian

:56:51. > :57:01.Prime Minister repeatedly on my visit to India and indeed, at the G

:57:01. > :57:02.

:57:02. > :57:07.keep 20 in in Cannes. When I loaded an aeroplane up with British goods,

:57:07. > :57:15.who was it that attacked me? Who put out the press releases? Who was

:57:15. > :57:25.it that doesn't stand up for British industry, and British jobs?

:57:25. > :57:25.

:57:25. > :57:31.It is Labour. On Monday, I visited the offices of

:57:31. > :57:37.the Bucksburry Press. I can tell the Prime Minister that Labour's

:57:37. > :57:43.leg legacy in my constituents constituents is distrust. The right

:57:43. > :57:48.way to deliver local accountability in our constituency is clinical

:57:48. > :57:53.commissioning and foundation trust status? The whole point of the

:57:53. > :57:56.reforms is to put the power in the hands of local doctors so they make

:57:56. > :58:01.decisions on behalf of patients and what is good for healthcare in

:58:01. > :58:05.their local area. We may find that the community hospitals that were

:58:05. > :58:08.repeatedly undermined by the party opposite will get a boost because

:58:08. > :58:17.owe lol people and local doctors want to see them succeed. That's

:58:17. > :58:21.what our reforms are all about. There are 40,000 women sick with

:58:21. > :58:25.anxiety because of faulty medical products and now they are being

:58:25. > :58:31.failed by private clinics and by an NHS which is dithering about what

:58:31. > :58:34.to do. We can see the future of a privatised NHS. So will the Prime

:58:34. > :58:39.Minister pledge, will the Prime Minister pledge to support those

:58:39. > :58:43.women in the NHS now and claim against the clinics later and will

:58:43. > :58:48.he drop the Health and Social Care Bill so we we don't have this

:58:48. > :58:53.happening across the NHS? I will take the question in two halfs. She

:58:53. > :58:57.is write about the scandal of the PIP implants. The Government has

:58:57. > :59:00.made clear that we will offer every one of those women a free

:59:00. > :59:04.consultation and making sure that on the NHS we do everything we can

:59:04. > :59:09.to help them. It is a scandal and the private clinics that carried

:59:09. > :59:14.out the operations, they should feel the maximum pressure to undo

:59:14. > :59:17.the harm they have done. But let me just say to her about the issue of

:59:17. > :59:19.greater competition and choice within the NHS, I actually think

:59:20. > :59:23.she should listen to past Labour politicians who have said

:59:23. > :59:26.themselves that actually greater greater choice, greater competition,

:59:26. > :59:31.the involvement of the private sector, that can help raise

:59:31. > :59:41.standards in our NHS system and that's why we should support it.

:59:41. > :59:44.

:59:44. > :59:51.Thank you, Mr SPeabg. Speaker. The threat to ship building jobs

:59:51. > :59:59.threatens 32 jobs in the regional supply chain. Will the Prime

:59:59. > :00:03.Minister commit to do all he can to protect this site? The honourable

:00:03. > :00:09.lady is right to speak up for Portsmouth and to speak up for ship

:00:09. > :00:13.building. BAe Systems Has not approached the Government with any

:00:13. > :00:19.proposal to rationalise ship building. What I would say in terms

:00:19. > :00:29.of this Government's commitment to the Royal Navy, better building the

:00:29. > :00:36.new frig ats, there is the plans for replacing Trident and the plans

:00:36. > :00:44.for aircraft carriers. Treasury tax rates on North Sea Oil

:00:44. > :00:48.and gas are putting 1500 jobs at ONG North Tyneside at risk. Can I

:00:48. > :00:57.ask the Prime Minister not to be complacent about north-east jobs,

:00:57. > :01:01.but to insent advise off --ent sen ta vice in the Budget and to meet

:01:01. > :01:05.with me and others about the the jobs situation in the north-east?

:01:05. > :01:10.The honourable lady raises an important point. I saw for myself

:01:10. > :01:16.when I went to Aberdeen how vital this industry is and indeed how

:01:16. > :01:20.much investment is taking place in the North Sea. The reason we put up

:01:20. > :01:23.the tax on North Sea was actually to cut petrol duty for families up

:01:23. > :01:28.and down the country, but we will make sure that...

:01:29. > :01:31.THE SPEAKER: I don't know where members are falling about unable to

:01:31. > :01:33.contain themselves. I want to hear the Prime Minister's answer.

:01:33. > :01:36.The Prime Minister. We will make sure there is a good

:01:36. > :01:44.tax regime for the North Sea, whether that is servicing jobs in

:01:44. > :01:49.England or indeed in Scotland. Mr Speaker, last Wednesday, the

:01:49. > :01:54.Commons rejected the Lords attempt to wreck the Reform Bill. On seven

:01:54. > :01:59.occasion the Commons voted, the Prime Minister and a Deputy Prime

:01:59. > :02:02.Minister voted, but the Children's Minister, the honourable member for

:02:03. > :02:08.Brent Central, refused to support the Government and has spoken

:02:08. > :02:11.against the policy. Now Mr Speaker, on occasion, I have spoken against

:02:11. > :02:19.the Government and then supported them, but I am not a Government

:02:19. > :02:29.minister. Why is she still a Government minister?.

:02:29. > :02:29.

:02:29. > :02:31.I thought thought... THE SPEAKER: We want to hear the

:02:31. > :02:33.Prime Minister's verdict on the honourable member for Brent Central

:02:33. > :02:36.and we won't if there is too much noise.

:02:36. > :02:37.I thought he was going to say yet. The honourable lady is a Government

:02:37. > :02:45.minister. She supports Government policy as all Government ministers

:02:45. > :02:52.15,000 young disabled people are going to be affected by the changes

:02:52. > :02:59.to contributory employment support allowance. That's 1500 now

:02:59. > :03:04.claimants are going to lose �5,900 a year. Is -- �4,900 a year. Is

:03:04. > :03:08.this the Government of value that the Prime Minister spoke about in

:03:08. > :03:14.May 2010. We are We are there are two groups. There are the support

:03:14. > :03:18.group. People who ant able to work. People who deserve to get that

:03:18. > :03:22.support for as long as they need it without any means-testing. The

:03:22. > :03:25.second element, are people who need help to get work, but will be able

:03:25. > :03:28.to work. That's why they are in that group and they are they are

:03:28. > :03:33.going to get help and support under the work programme to get them into

:03:33. > :03:38.work. I know the Labour Party has set its face against all of Welfare

:03:38. > :03:42.Reform. They are making a massive mistake in doing so.

:03:42. > :03:46.What confidence can we have that universal intervention by Russia

:03:46. > :03:51.will put an end to the terrible violence in Syria?

:03:51. > :03:55.I think we can have very well confidence in that. Russia and

:03:55. > :03:59.China set themselves against Arab opinion and world opinion in

:03:59. > :04:02.passing what would have been a strong and good UN resolution and I

:04:03. > :04:06.think the Foreign Secretary was right to push for that resolution.

:04:06. > :04:10.What we now need to see and Britain will be playing a big part in this

:04:10. > :04:14.is real engagement with the Opposition groups both inside and

:04:14. > :04:18.outside Syria, bringing together the strongest possible

:04:18. > :04:22.international alliance through a contact group so we can co-ordinate

:04:23. > :04:27.efforts with respect to getting rid of this dreadful regime and making

:04:27. > :04:31.sure we continue with the sanctions and pressure. The bloodshed in

:04:31. > :04:34.Syria is appalling. The Russians have to look at their consciences

:04:34. > :04:40.and realise what they have done, but the rest of the world will will

:04:40. > :04:43.keep on fighting to give the Syrian people a chance to choose their own

:04:43. > :04:48.future. Yesterday, I heard an expert, a

:04:48. > :04:53.health expert, who is visiting the UK say that the NHS remains a

:04:53. > :04:57.beacon for care and effectiveness in the world. And that it needs to

:04:57. > :05:03.be improved and perfected, not changed. Will the Prime Minister

:05:03. > :05:07.accept that advice and abandon the Health Bill?

:05:07. > :05:10.I will tell you what needs to be abandoned, and that's Labour's

:05:10. > :05:14.approach to the NHS in Wales. Well, he shakes his head. This is what is

:05:14. > :05:21.happening in Wales. This is what Labour are doing in Wales. They

:05:21. > :05:27.have cut health spending in Wales by �400 million. That is a 6.5% cut.

:05:27. > :05:33.27% of people in Wales wait over six weeks for diagnostic services.

:05:33. > :05:37.The figure for England is just 1%. As I said earlier, a third of

:05:37. > :05:42.people waiting over 18 weeks for their operation in Wales. That is

:05:42. > :05:50.what you get if you get Labour. No money, no reform. No good Health

:05:50. > :06:00.Service. Thank you, Mr Speaker. Many of my

:06:00. > :06:00.

:06:00. > :06:07.constituents are among the 337 redundancies announced by Kerry

:06:07. > :06:12.Foods. The honourable gentleman from Great Grimsby and I have

:06:12. > :06:17.approached various departments for support. One possibility is the

:06:17. > :06:20.extension of the enterprise zone. Can the Prime Minister give give

:06:20. > :06:24.comfort to my constituents by looking at that proposal?

:06:24. > :06:28.I am grateful for the question. He is right to speak up for his

:06:28. > :06:34.constituents in this way. The Chancellor is very happy to look at

:06:34. > :06:38.the idea of expanding ther enterprise zone and -- the

:06:38. > :06:48.enterprise zone and see what else we can do to help his constituents

:06:48. > :06:48.

:06:48. > :06:53.That has overrun by six minutes. Clearly, what I sent the Speaker

:06:53. > :07:03.for Christmas has not worked. Interesting for Prime Minister's

:07:03. > :07:06.Questions to finish with the Tory backbencher, Peter Bone,

:07:06. > :07:12.criticising a Lib Dem government minister for not being there for

:07:12. > :07:15.some of the votes on the welfare benefit cap. But the men exchange

:07:15. > :07:25.was between the Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition on the

:07:25. > :07:25.

:07:25. > :07:29.all of the questions he is entitled to on that one subject. Before we

:07:29. > :07:32.discuss that, let's hear your e- mails.

:07:33. > :07:37.To too much all of the e-mails were in response to the discussion on

:07:37. > :07:42.health. By Anne says David Cameron may care about the NHS, but he is

:07:42. > :07:46.allowing Andrew Lansley to destroy it. Liam in witness said, why does

:07:46. > :07:51.Mr Cameron believe he is right and the health bodies opposing the bill

:07:51. > :07:56.are wrong? His personal attacks are not befitting of a Prime Minister.

:07:56. > :08:00.Graeme Knowles says when in a deep hole, David Cameron always gets out

:08:00. > :08:05.the David Miliband knife. But Geoffrey from Hampshire says

:08:05. > :08:08.Cameron runs circles behind the Red Ed again. The opposition front

:08:08. > :08:13.bench is so full of opportunists, they should concentrate on

:08:13. > :08:16.healthcare and not points-scoring. And Helen says sorry, but Ed still

:08:16. > :08:21.can't even score with an open goal like the NHS reforms. He still

:08:21. > :08:26.comes across as stilted and over prepared. His responses are weak

:08:26. > :08:30.and lack conviction. Anyone who has spent time in NHS hospital knows it

:08:30. > :08:40.cannot carry on as cities and needs reform. And there were many more

:08:40. > :08:46.

:08:46. > :08:51.like this, but the majority were critical of David Cameron.

:08:51. > :08:57.A more confident and assertive Mr Ballam up -- Mr Miliband, I would

:08:57. > :09:02.suggest. But you would think there was an election around the corner,

:09:02. > :09:08.in a way, because they were not just arguing about the merits of

:09:08. > :09:12.health reform, but a kind of you are rubbish, we are great attitude?

:09:12. > :09:17.In a sense, Ed Miliband made his mirth -- most impact on health a

:09:17. > :09:27.couple of weeks ago, when he unveiled the list of public bodies

:09:27. > :09:28.

:09:28. > :09:34.that were turning against it. He revealed another public body today

:09:34. > :09:39.that is opposed. They are now saying the bill should be scrapped.

:09:39. > :09:41.It is hard to get the same impact for three weeks running. But he

:09:41. > :09:45.looked comfortable and the Prime Minister looked pretty

:09:45. > :09:51.uncomfortable. You can always tell the Prime Minister is uncomfortable,

:09:51. > :09:55.because he shouts more. Ed Miliband was quieter. David Cameron also

:09:55. > :09:58.goes for more lines at David Miliband's expense. It is

:09:58. > :10:02.proportional to how comfortable he feels on the policy. The most

:10:02. > :10:07.striking thing about the exchanges was the deliberate, planned,

:10:07. > :10:11.scripted and organised move to support Andrew Lansley as Health

:10:11. > :10:15.Secretary. He sat forward in his seats. Helpfully, the cameras at

:10:16. > :10:20.the House of Commons kept taking pictures of him. The Prime Minister

:10:20. > :10:23.said his career prospects were better than Ed Miliband's. This

:10:23. > :10:28.followed that flurry of speculation fuelled by the Times yesterday that

:10:28. > :10:32.he was on his way out. We were told when you were in opposition in the

:10:32. > :10:39.run-up to the election that the Tory strategy in health was to

:10:39. > :10:44.sideline it, just to park it. "we are going to ring-fence it, and not

:10:44. > :10:47.cut funding". Health and your department were to get more. But

:10:47. > :10:52.defence and police and the Tory litmus tests were not to get

:10:53. > :10:58.funding. The less we talked about health, the better it was for your

:10:58. > :11:02.party. There were endless briefings. In some ways, that was the strategy

:11:02. > :11:07.in the studio. We had lots of debates. Don't rock the boat was

:11:07. > :11:12.the Tory attitude. But now health is dominated the headlines.

:11:13. > :11:18.never said we would pocket to one side. We said we would support it.

:11:18. > :11:22.You wanted to sanitise it. But you cannot fossilise the NHS either. It

:11:22. > :11:26.takes an enormous amount of money, which we are increasing, in a world

:11:27. > :11:31.whose demands are changing significantly as the nature of

:11:31. > :11:36.disease need and age profile changes. If you do not change the

:11:36. > :11:40.NHS and make it able to respond to the needs of the elderly and the

:11:40. > :11:43.challenges of obesity and things like that, it will not be an

:11:43. > :11:49.efficient organisation serving the needs of the people. So within this

:11:49. > :11:55.increased budget, we want to reform it so that it can. It is not a top-

:11:55. > :11:58.down, it is actually bottom-up, because we are empowering GPs and

:11:58. > :12:03.people at that level to be able to offer patients what they need best

:12:03. > :12:08.by commissioning the resources. it is not a result of a clamour

:12:08. > :12:11.from GPs to have these reforms. That would be bottom-up. This is

:12:11. > :12:19.coming from the top, telling GPs that this is how it will be in the

:12:19. > :12:24.future. But the empowerment is that the lower level. But it comes from

:12:24. > :12:28.the top. My definition would be different. It will not be an

:12:28. > :12:31.organisation where people at the top pull all the levers. It will be

:12:31. > :12:38.an organisation where people who have faced time with patients can

:12:38. > :12:43.pull the levers. For the moment, health is a Labour issue. You

:12:43. > :12:46.usually pull back on that than the Conservatives. But there is a

:12:46. > :12:49.danger for you. Ed Miliband said there are three months to save the

:12:50. > :12:55.health service. I would suggest that in three months, the health

:12:55. > :13:01.service will still be around and still treating millions of patients.

:13:01. > :13:04.If in 18 months' time, these changes have taken place and bedded

:13:04. > :13:07.down and there is not a material change to the standards of our

:13:07. > :13:11.health service, it may even be better if the Government is right,

:13:11. > :13:15.you will be seen to have made a song and dance about not much.

:13:15. > :13:20.not think people will think we have made a song and dance about not

:13:20. > :13:24.much. The tough it doesn't get worse? I think there is a chance we

:13:24. > :13:29.can stop the bill, but even if it goes through, that will not solve

:13:29. > :13:35.the government's problems. Their problems are going to get worse.

:13:35. > :13:41.There is a danger for David Cameron. He said his personal priority were

:13:41. > :13:48.three letters - NHS. At best, he has lost control of the policy. At

:13:48. > :13:52.worst, these changes are wrong for the future of the NHS. And it will

:13:52. > :13:56.really start to bite when patients who we are already seeing wait

:13:56. > :14:00.longer than 18 weeks, the government are say the average wait

:14:00. > :14:05.is the same, but as people have longer waits, it pulls up the

:14:05. > :14:10.average. People are waiting longer for their diagnostic tests. That is

:14:10. > :14:17.frightening. We will see problems with money building up. They have

:14:17. > :14:20.wasted 20 months. It was going to be tough for the NHS to save �20

:14:20. > :14:27.billion in efficiency savings. would have had to do that. And it

:14:27. > :14:31.would have been tough. In Doncaster, we have just heard that they have

:14:31. > :14:36.spent �3 million on redundancies already. That is a waste and it

:14:36. > :14:40.should go to patient care. A but this is all about cash. People

:14:40. > :14:44.forget that even though David Cameron had those posters about

:14:44. > :14:47.cutting the deficit, but not the NHS, even though the Conservatives

:14:47. > :14:51.said they would increase spending on the NHS, it would be the

:14:51. > :14:55.smallest increase in a long period of time since the creation of the

:14:55. > :15:02.NHS. People often talk about Thatcher's government cutting the

:15:02. > :15:06.NHS. But the spending on the NHS increased in real terms by 4.3%

:15:06. > :15:12.every year. Effectively, there is no real terms increase in NHS

:15:12. > :15:18.spending. It is about flat. There is an argument about numbers, but

:15:18. > :15:24.it is about flat. The NHS has never done that. Not in one year, let

:15:24. > :15:28.alone a year after year. It seems to me that tactically, Labour want

:15:28. > :15:31.to not allow the Tories to say, as you have just done, that would have

:15:31. > :15:36.happened under you and it is because of the deficit, but to say

:15:36. > :15:42.that when things get worse in the NHS, which objectively, with less

:15:42. > :15:46.money, you would think they want -- Wood, to say that it is ideological.

:15:46. > :15:50.It is because you are fiddling around with it. A much better

:15:50. > :15:58.argument for the Government would have been, if they had killed the

:15:58. > :16:04.bill, would have been to say, you are right. We are giving him -- the

:16:04. > :16:08.best advice possible - drop the bill. But your exact words earlier

:16:08. > :16:13.in this programme were that in the NHS, we have to make less go

:16:13. > :16:17.further. I assume you meant was not the budget should be lower but that

:16:17. > :16:21.given �100, you have to get more out of it. That is always a

:16:21. > :16:25.challenge with the NHS, because demand is almost infinite.

:16:25. > :16:31.Resources are finite. David Owen said earlier that things have to be

:16:31. > :16:35.rationed. So to get efficiency in the NHS is a permanent challenge.

:16:35. > :16:42.We have to leave it there. They are not going to withdraw the bill, so

:16:42. > :16:47.we will have plenty of time to talk about it. You said you wanted to

:16:48. > :16:54.come back on Sarah Teather, the Liberal Democrat minister. She went

:16:54. > :16:57.to Sheffield for the vote on the welfare cap. She is known to have

:16:57. > :17:05.raised worries about the number of families with disabled children who

:17:05. > :17:09.might be effective. Tory backbenchers sick of compromises

:17:09. > :17:14.such as the one on Abu Qatada want to have a go at her and the

:17:14. > :17:17.coalition. Now, it is cold outside, in case

:17:17. > :17:21.you had not noticed. Many pensioners will be glad of their

:17:21. > :17:25.annual winter fuel allowance from the Government. But everyone over

:17:25. > :17:29.60 get offered the money, including the comfortably off and even the

:17:29. > :17:33.wealthy. So is it to good use of our taxes? Former Conservative

:17:33. > :17:42.minister Ann Widdecombe does not think so, and she gives her

:17:42. > :17:48.allowance away to charity. Here, she explains why.

:17:48. > :17:51.Every winter, pensioners die of cold. As temperatures begin to

:17:52. > :18:01.plummet, there are people who are having to make the choice between

:18:01. > :18:04.eating properly and keeping warm. And it is estimated that every year,

:18:04. > :18:14.inadequate heating contributes to the death of thousands of

:18:14. > :18:18.

:18:18. > :18:22.pensioners. The �200 winter fuel allowance goes into it any

:18:22. > :18:32.household where there is a pensioner, irrespective of how much

:18:32. > :18:35.

:18:35. > :18:41.money is coming in. And the over '80s get a �300. So far, the

:18:41. > :18:46.campaign has persuaded better-off individuals to give up some �2

:18:46. > :18:52.million. And that has been enough to help about 20,000 poorer

:18:52. > :18:56.pensioners. But there are still millionaires getting government

:18:56. > :19:02.handouts while thousands of pensioners struggle just to keep

:19:02. > :19:07.warm. David Cameron says he will not touch the winter fuel allowance.

:19:07. > :19:13.And indeed, that pledge was included in the coalition agreement

:19:13. > :19:21.with the Liberal Democrats. One might argue that he should break

:19:21. > :19:27.that pledge, and thereby save part of the �2.1 billion that the

:19:27. > :19:31.allowance cost the Treasury every year. But I think it would be even

:19:31. > :19:36.better if the money that now goes to well-off pensioners were instead

:19:36. > :19:42.to be used to raise the allowances for the pensioners who really need

:19:42. > :19:49.them. But until that happens, we have to persuade as many people as

:19:49. > :19:53.possible to donate their run needed allowances.

:19:53. > :19:57.-- and needed allowances. And Ann Widdecombe joins us now.

:19:57. > :20:07.Presumably it is not politically power -- palatable for David

:20:07. > :20:09.

:20:09. > :20:14.You have go to ask what is the common sense thing to do. I am well

:20:14. > :20:19.aware of all the problems that is caused by means-testing. I am not

:20:19. > :20:26.proposing full means-testing. You are not? No. Where you have got

:20:27. > :20:32.pensioners in the 40% or 50% tax band they should not get it. If

:20:32. > :20:38.they can do with child benefit, why not this? If you can do it with

:20:38. > :20:41.child benefit, why not this? This is the argument about means-tested

:20:41. > :20:44.versus universal benefit and they made a straight decision on this

:20:44. > :20:48.for it to be universal. It was a Labour Party decision and no doubt

:20:48. > :20:52.at the time there was an element of politics in this that they wanted

:20:52. > :20:56.to Woo as many people as they could. If you were to have means-testing

:20:56. > :21:00.it would be more complicated either by clawing it back in the tax

:21:00. > :21:04.system or picking which people qualified or not.

:21:05. > :21:07.But do you agree with the principle? I think the outcry of

:21:07. > :21:11.introducing means-testing, the Labour Party has been against

:21:11. > :21:15.means-testing and now maybe they are in favour of it.

:21:15. > :21:19.When this was introduced you had to apply. My mother did not apply for

:21:19. > :21:24.it even though she was in her 90s and could have done, but once you

:21:24. > :21:28.put it in bank accounts, it is like the �10 Christmas bonus, it arrives

:21:28. > :21:31.in your bank account, automatic. I think there are many ways in which

:21:31. > :21:39.we could ensure that this is properly directed. Some people

:21:39. > :21:42.would love �400, I don't need �200. There is another side to this which

:21:42. > :21:47.is Cold Weather Payments, if the temperature for a week or so

:21:47. > :21:52.doesn't go above freezing there was be an automatic payment and it will

:21:52. > :21:58.only be to those on benefit. It is the principle of universal benefits.

:21:58. > :22:03.Why can't this Government in these austere times, they seem to be able

:22:03. > :22:09.to do it with everything else, break this universal benefit?

:22:09. > :22:14.that were to happen there would be an outcry and not least the Labour

:22:14. > :22:19.Party who were against means- testing. Once you have got a a

:22:19. > :22:24.system, it is difficult to unravel Do you think it should be looked

:22:24. > :22:28.at? All things should be looked at all the time, you know, I am not

:22:28. > :22:31.one who says that just because it is there, it has to be there

:22:31. > :22:35.forever. Alan, there is a simpler, I

:22:35. > :22:41.hesitate to interrupt you, there is a simpler approach to this. Even if

:22:41. > :22:47.you don't go for fuls means -- full means-testing, why don't you go for,

:22:47. > :22:53.you have to ask for it or 40% and 50% bands out. That's That's

:22:53. > :22:57.relatively easy to do. I undertake to pass on your

:22:57. > :23:01.suggestion to George Osborne. Why doesn't Labour come forward and

:23:01. > :23:07.say that too? We are trying to look at the real issue which is the high

:23:07. > :23:12.costs of bills. With due respect... I know that's what you want to talk

:23:12. > :23:16.about. There is the underlying issue for many of my constituents,

:23:16. > :23:21.they are worried about the costs of heating. There is more we can do.

:23:21. > :23:25.We have come forward with the proposal that the energy companies

:23:25. > :23:30.should put people who are over 75 on the lowest possible rate. We

:23:30. > :23:38.need to open up that market to get more competition.

:23:38. > :23:42.Should I get the winter fuel fuel allowance? There is a real issue

:23:42. > :23:50.here about the costs of means- testing? But should I be getting

:23:50. > :23:54.it? Well, you don't you should be getting it. What about people in

:23:54. > :23:58.the House of Lords, should they receive it? There are a number of

:23:58. > :24:03.issues that need to be looked at and Ed Miliband said that.

:24:03. > :24:13.Tas difficult issue, isn't -- it is a difficult difficult issue, isn't

:24:13. > :24:17.it? We want to be kind to you to you to you Ann! We don't want to be

:24:18. > :24:26.hard on you! How do you identify yourself,

:24:26. > :24:32.English, Scottish, or Nordic? The Prime Minister is going to put on

:24:32. > :24:38.his thermals and head off to Stockholm for the Nordic Baltic

:24:38. > :24:43.summit. Here is Max Cotton on our new friends friends from the north.

:24:43. > :24:46.Who are our friends? It is a serious serious question. There

:24:46. > :24:50.come moments in political life when we need to look out there for

:24:50. > :24:54.allies! There have been very different

:24:54. > :25:00.answers to that question from our political leaders over the years.

:25:00. > :25:07.Churchill was the great Atlantis cyst who believed the future of the

:25:07. > :25:11.UK lay with our American cousins. Then came along Ted Heath. Suddenly

:25:11. > :25:15.we were in the EEC and had Continental quilts and cappuccino,

:25:15. > :25:19.but that's a complicated relationship and in the last few

:25:19. > :25:24.months, we have been told to get lost by the French and by the

:25:25. > :25:31.Germans! So what is the answer? Nordic. This

:25:31. > :25:36.man is our future ally. Norwegian, Scandinavian, Danish, it doesn't

:25:36. > :25:41.matter. He looks great and we have got him some snow!

:25:41. > :25:46.Millions of years before the Vikings invaded Norwich and grabbed

:25:46. > :25:56.all our lands after a good bit of pillaging, Britain was part of

:25:56. > :26:00.Scandinavia, but the tectonic plates or that maybe tutonic plates

:26:00. > :26:08.priced us apart and created the North Sea leaving Britain too close

:26:08. > :26:18.to France for comfort. Look at the culture Scandinavia brought to

:26:18. > :26:24.Britain's shores. If Stig Larsson hadn't of died so young, WH Smith's

:26:24. > :26:28.would have lobbied to have him knighted and crucially every home

:26:28. > :26:38.in Britain is furnish with something that arrived in a flat-

:26:38. > :26:48.pack. Finns and nor weeg -- Norwegians, are they our new best

:26:48. > :26:48.

:26:48. > :26:56.Did you debt that Andrew? That's why he was in Bill and Ben!

:26:56. > :27:01.We are joined by a lover of all things Nordic, Frazer Nelson of the

:27:01. > :27:07.Spectator, would the Nordics like us to join their little club?

:27:07. > :27:12.don't think so. They are flattered all this attention they are getting.

:27:12. > :27:18.We are fascinated by Swedish schools and you name it, we are

:27:18. > :27:21.trying to nick it? Right now, the Nordic countries are standing in

:27:21. > :27:29.isolation from the terrible things that are happening in Europe.

:27:29. > :27:35.Sweden doesn't have a deficit. They don't want the likes of us bringing

:27:35. > :27:40.the economic IQ down. They would rather we admire them from afar.

:27:40. > :27:44.The centre left was obsessed with Sweden. That was the role model for

:27:44. > :27:51.social democracy. It is the centre right that looks to Sweden for

:27:51. > :27:56.ideas? The left love Sweden's huge tax rates. It is the highest tax in

:27:56. > :27:59.the whole of Europe, but the right love the fact that their market

:27:59. > :28:04.orientation means they have private companies running the Tube, running

:28:04. > :28:09.the hospitals, running the schools. In Finland, almost all the school

:28:09. > :28:13.system is independently run. Organisationally it is to the right

:28:13. > :28:19.of Britain. What's Mr Cameron hoping to get out

:28:19. > :28:22.of the trip? I don't know, perhaps a few more pictures of huskies and

:28:22. > :28:30.an iceberg. He will be there to learn and with any luck he will

:28:30. > :28:33.learn that cutting tax for the low paid boosts the economy. And that's

:28:33. > :28:43.what they are doing and it is working.

:28:43. > :28:44.

:28:45. > :28:47.What is Swedish for goodbye? Hewa! Here is the answer to Guess the

:28:47. > :28:53.Year. The end of sweet rationing was the

:28:53. > :28:58.clue. But did you remember when it happened?

:28:58. > :29:03.What was the year? I don't know. 1953!

:29:03. > :29:08.The programme ends in chaos. usual.

:29:08. > :29:13.That's it. Thanks to our guests. We will be back tomorrow at Noon with