:00:38. > :00:46.Good afternoon and welcome to the Daily Politics. Half term is over
:00:46. > :00:48.and it's back to work we go. The Prime Minister and his Health
:00:48. > :00:52.Secretary, Andrew Lansley, are heading to Downing Street. In an
:00:52. > :00:54.hour's time, they are hosting a health summit. So why haven't they
:00:54. > :00:58.invited the main doctors and nurses groups?
:00:58. > :01:01.What about British manufacturing? We have heard it's been on its
:01:01. > :01:05.uppers for so long you'd be forgiven for thinking there is
:01:05. > :01:08.hardly any of it left! But is it actually doing rather well?
:01:08. > :01:12.Should head-teachers allow kids to go off on holiday during term-time?
:01:12. > :01:15.At the moment they have got some discretion. But the government
:01:15. > :01:18.doesn't like the effect it has on overall attendance rates.
:01:18. > :01:26.And a new Sun rises over Wapping. But will Rupert Murdoch's new paper
:01:26. > :01:30.receive a warm welcome here at Westminster?
:01:30. > :01:35.All that in the next hour. With us this afternoon is Nikki
:01:35. > :01:40.King, managing director of Isuzu Trucks. Welcome. If you have any
:01:40. > :01:50.thoughts or comments on anything we are discussing, you can send them
:01:50. > :01:52.
:01:52. > :01:59.Let's start with Ed Balls and yesterday's call from Labour for
:02:00. > :02:06.big tax cuts in next month's Budget. We are imposing an austerity which
:02:06. > :02:10.is self-defeating. There is a big problem in growth in jobs. The
:02:10. > :02:15.government has borrowed 158 million more than they planned. George
:02:15. > :02:21.Osborne says there is nothing he can do. I say it is complacent and
:02:21. > :02:26.irresponsible and he should act. Let's debate how we can act. I have
:02:26. > :02:30.proposed a temporary VAT Act. The Lib Dems say raise personal
:02:30. > :02:35.allowance. David Davies says cut personal gains tax. We need
:02:35. > :02:45.stimulus to get jobs back. It is the only way to get the deficit
:02:45. > :02:49.
:02:49. > :02:55.down. Nikki King, do you agree? Is it time for tax cuts? Is a good
:02:55. > :02:59.time to raise the tax threshold at the bottom end? If this was wartime,
:02:59. > :03:05.the media and the opposition would be shot because there is a lot of
:03:05. > :03:10.good news. Why is it not coming through them? You said you have had
:03:10. > :03:15.a good deal and that business is booming for you but why is that not
:03:15. > :03:20.filtering through? The trucks industry is the first industry to
:03:20. > :03:25.go into recession and normally the first to start coming out because
:03:25. > :03:30.when the high street is quiet, nobody buys trucks any more. We are
:03:30. > :03:34.in the middle of February and we have done 60% of our sales target
:03:34. > :03:39.for the year already! Everybody I talked to is having a reasonably
:03:39. > :03:44.good time. Why is that not see it should be no national figures that
:03:44. > :03:52.show that growth is flat lining -- why is that not coming up in
:03:53. > :03:59.national figures? Why it is the economy not showing that those
:03:59. > :04:05.times? Retail was 0.9% up in January. There are signs of growth
:04:05. > :04:15.in the market. Why are we not celebrating that. There are green
:04:15. > :04:19.shoots of stock do you think -- green shoots. Do you think that you
:04:19. > :04:25.need to stimulate the economy, do you not think it would boost
:04:25. > :04:29.consumer demand? No, confidence will boost consumer demand.
:04:29. > :04:33.Confidence will boost businesses to grow and employed people. We need
:04:33. > :04:38.to know green shoots are coming, there is light at the end of the
:04:38. > :04:48.tunnel, and it is not coming out in the media. Would any tax cuts help
:04:48. > :04:49.
:04:49. > :04:51.your business? No. Sorry. Fair enough!
:04:51. > :04:55.David Cameron and Andrew Lansley are holding a summit today at
:04:55. > :05:00.Downing Street in a bid to get the Health and Social Care Bill off
:05:00. > :05:03.It's a select meeting. The chairs of the emerging GP-led
:05:03. > :05:06.commissioning groups have been invited. But organisations like the
:05:06. > :05:09.BMA and Royal College of Nursing won't be there. And critics say
:05:09. > :05:14.there is not much point having a health summit without the doctors
:05:14. > :05:15.and nurses. But groups like the BMA oppose the plans to give GPs and
:05:15. > :05:18.other clinicians more responsibility for spending the
:05:18. > :05:20.budget in England and increasing competition, saying the bill still
:05:20. > :05:24.presents unacceptable risks to the NHS.
:05:24. > :05:27.But are they too late? The 151 Primary Care Trusts, which are
:05:28. > :05:31.losing control of the NHS budget to GPs under the plans, have already
:05:31. > :05:34.been merged. And the ten Strategic Health Authorities, which
:05:34. > :05:38.effectively kept an eye on the system, have also joined forces to
:05:38. > :05:41.create four super-hubs. However, research published this morning by
:05:41. > :05:49.the London School of Economics suggests that forcing NHS hospitals
:05:49. > :05:51.to compete with one another can A little earlier this morning,
:05:51. > :05:54.before he headed off towards today's summit, the Health Minister
:05:54. > :06:02.Simon Burns explained why some groups have been invited and some
:06:02. > :06:06.have not. This is an ongoing series of meetings that the Prime Minister
:06:06. > :06:12.and the Department of Health have had across the last 20 months with
:06:12. > :06:15.interest groups, with people who work in the health service, and to
:06:16. > :06:18.have a meeting with those who are constructively taking part and
:06:19. > :06:23.helping to implement the modernisation programme.
:06:23. > :06:26.Norman Smith joins us now from Downing Street. Are we hearing
:06:26. > :06:32.there are not any plans to meet the groups that have not been invited
:06:32. > :06:36.today? Apparently nothing has been pencilled into the Prime Minister's
:06:36. > :06:40.diary in terms of possible meetings with those health groups that are
:06:40. > :06:45.critical in terms of reform. Number 10 seems to think these groups are
:06:45. > :06:50.by no means representative of all doctors and nurses and that their
:06:50. > :06:54.influence is perhaps exaggerated. Secondly, there is perhaps a view
:06:54. > :06:58.that the time for whether to go ahead with reviews his past. The
:06:58. > :07:02.aim now is to speak to the groups who will carry out the
:07:02. > :07:10.implementation of the reforms. It looks a bit like slamming the door
:07:10. > :07:14.in the bunker and waiting for the storm to pass but my sense is, the
:07:14. > :07:18.government hoped to convey the idea that a sizable number of health
:07:18. > :07:23.professionals do support the reforms and thereby get the public
:07:23. > :07:27.on board, because if we are honest, most people do not understand the
:07:27. > :07:33.nitty-gritty of all of the different health boards, clinical
:07:33. > :07:38.senatess, etc, and most people will probably form their views by seeing
:07:38. > :07:43.what they GP does and there are no stars, so the health professionals
:07:43. > :07:48.in that context are critical to winning the argument -- what then
:07:48. > :07:54.nurses do. The debate really just need to get this through in
:07:54. > :07:57.whatever form and moved on? reminds me of polar explorers
:07:57. > :08:06.heading south. They have gone so far that it doesn't matter how
:08:06. > :08:10.bleak the way ahead is, they have to press on. It is to late to go
:08:10. > :08:16.back and push Andrew Lansley down a crevasse. They have to soldier on
:08:16. > :08:19.with him. The light at the end of the tunnel for them is that they
:08:19. > :08:26.hope once the reforms are in place, by and large life will continue as
:08:26. > :08:31.normal, people will not notice the NHS having radically changed and
:08:31. > :08:36.people will forget. The danger is, if things do go wrong, if there are
:08:36. > :08:40.difficulties because perhaps of reduced funding, people will say,
:08:40. > :08:43.that is all because of government reforms. Although the hope is
:08:44. > :08:48.people with and it is OK, it is possible things will go wrong and
:08:48. > :08:51.they will blame it on these government reforms. Norman Smith,
:08:51. > :08:53.thank you. With us now is Dr Jacky Davis, a
:08:53. > :08:57.consultant radiologist, who is a founder member of Keep Our NHS
:08:57. > :09:01.Public. And the Conservative MP for Ipswich, Dr Dan Poulter, who still
:09:01. > :09:06.works as a medical practitioner from time to time. Will come to
:09:06. > :09:14.both of you. Do you know how many clinical commissioning groups are
:09:14. > :09:17.supposed to have replaced PC TVs and are up and running? -- PCTs.
:09:17. > :09:22.Three-quarters of the country will be putting doctors and health care
:09:23. > :09:27.professionals in charge of running the NHS, which is a good thing.
:09:27. > :09:32.There is good evidence from Cumbria that this works, that it improves
:09:32. > :09:37.patient care, and that is what these reforms are about. Do you
:09:38. > :09:42.think it was a cock-up? Not inviting the main groups that
:09:42. > :09:50.represent doctors, midwives and nurses? The people that engage with
:09:50. > :09:55.reforms... What about the BMA and Royal College of Nursing? The BMA
:09:55. > :10:00.opposed the formation of the NHS in the first place and every
:10:00. > :10:04.consecutive government... I am a member of the BMA. What about the
:10:04. > :10:09.PR aspect of having a health summit and not inviting health
:10:09. > :10:14.professionals? They were consulted over an 18 month period. Some of
:10:14. > :10:18.those groups have come out in outright opposition to the Health
:10:18. > :10:23.Bill, that is their right, but the vast majority of doctors, all the
:10:23. > :10:28.people engaged in these reforms and wanting to improve patient care and
:10:29. > :10:34.work with the government are represented today. You have heard
:10:34. > :10:37.the case there and also from Simon Burns. We are such a long way down
:10:37. > :10:44.the line. The process is almost complete in terms of commissioning
:10:44. > :10:48.groups being set up. It is time to go along with it, isn't it?
:10:48. > :10:53.argument that GPs have formed commissioning groups and therefore
:10:53. > :10:57.support the Health Bill is like saying that people going into a
:10:57. > :11:04.lifeboat is supporting a ship sinking. Most people did not have
:11:04. > :11:08.any choice. To interpret that as if they support it. And to argue that
:11:08. > :11:13.you are in a mess and to justify going further with that mess is
:11:13. > :11:18.nonsensical. This can be stopped. This can be reconfigured. It is
:11:18. > :11:26.important that it is stopped. To argue that we have to go on because
:11:26. > :11:31.we are in a mess is inappropriate. Do you think Bickleigh Nichols
:11:31. > :11:38.groups should be stopped or GP commissioning? -- do you think the
:11:38. > :11:42.clinical groups? A lot of GPs are already doing commissioning. I know
:11:42. > :11:47.GPs in Cumbria and they do that very well. The legislation has to
:11:47. > :11:51.be stopped because it does not do what it says on the 10th.
:11:51. > :11:55.Cumbria, GPs are running services and it is that model that the
:11:55. > :12:00.government wants to run out and that does not happen elsewhere in
:12:00. > :12:09.the country. We need to put the best people who could act in the
:12:09. > :12:14.best interest of the patients in charge of the service. That will
:12:14. > :12:19.free up �5 billion that is listed in bureaucracy. I think it is
:12:19. > :12:23.disingenuous to say the reforms are a mess. The principles... A be
:12:23. > :12:28.legislation is a mess. I am not sure people are saying all of the
:12:28. > :12:33.reforms are a mess but you must accept that there difficulty,
:12:33. > :12:39.because the government even cannot get people to agree to it -- there
:12:39. > :12:43.is difficulties. We need a service that puts money into patient care,
:12:43. > :12:48.that reduces bureaucracy, that have doctors and nurses running the
:12:48. > :12:52.services, and that we have a health service commission from the
:12:52. > :12:58.community and focuses on preventive health care, and the focus of
:12:58. > :13:05.funding is on delivering... Do you agree with the principles as they
:13:05. > :13:14.are being set out? Which the legislation aside. -- put the
:13:14. > :13:20.legislation as side. His Cumbria a good role model? This Bill does not
:13:20. > :13:25.do what it says it is going to do. This argument will put power in the
:13:25. > :13:30.hands of GPs. 90% of doctors are against this because they see their
:13:30. > :13:34.GPs are being set up to fail. 20 billion in cuts will be made. The
:13:34. > :13:38.other reason they are being set up to fail is that in London the
:13:38. > :13:44.commissioning process has already been handed over to private
:13:44. > :13:49.companies in London, for example to a company who has put in put into
:13:49. > :13:52.this Health Bill. GPs have not been consulted about this, bringing in
:13:52. > :13:56.private companies to support them doing commissioning and that
:13:56. > :14:00.support will constitute an awful lot of the commissioning process so
:14:01. > :14:06.the idea GPs will be doing this is simply wrong. The use of private
:14:06. > :14:10.companies in the NHS is actually under legislation by the previous
:14:10. > :14:13.Labour government that has allowed this to happen. We are in a
:14:13. > :14:17.situation where the Labour Party has accepted that private
:14:17. > :14:24.healthcare companies, where they can been added to improve patient
:14:24. > :14:30.care, actually can bring value to the NHS... Just one more point.
:14:30. > :14:35.What the real discussion, one minute you are saying Cumbria is a
:14:35. > :14:38.good thing, the next you say it is a bad thing, and it is
:14:39. > :14:42.fundamentally a good thing because doctors and nurses are the best
:14:42. > :14:46.people placed to actually understand the needs of their
:14:46. > :14:51.patients and the best people to provide quality patient care.
:14:51. > :14:55.are looking at this from the outside. Does it sound like it is
:14:55. > :15:00.something the government should be embarking on? As a Lehmanns, all I
:15:00. > :15:04.can say is procrastination is a dangerous thing -- Lehman. We all
:15:04. > :15:10.know the NHS has to change. Treatment is getting more expensive,
:15:10. > :15:15.we are living longer and something has to be done. Anything that makes
:15:15. > :15:19.it carers start to run the NHS is good. My experience of the NHS is
:15:19. > :15:25.that the worst thing is government interference and it has lost its
:15:25. > :15:32.humanity. Top-down. It is time we brought humanity down back into the
:15:32. > :15:36.NHS. Their two. I will have to leave it there. -- thank you.
:15:36. > :15:38.Relations between the West and Iran seem to be getting worse and worse.
:15:38. > :15:41.Last week President Ahmadinejad showed off the latest developments
:15:41. > :15:43.in Iran's nuclear programme, and yesterday the country's oil
:15:43. > :15:46.ministry announced it was stopping shipments to Britain and France
:15:46. > :15:51.ahead of new sanctions which were scheduled to come into force in
:15:51. > :15:54.July. But today in the Commons, MPs will discuss a motion calling for
:15:54. > :16:03.the government to rule out the use of force against Iran and reduce
:16:03. > :16:07.tensions by redoubling diplomatic Our correspondent is in the House
:16:07. > :16:13.of Commons, with two MPs who will be taking part in the debate.
:16:13. > :16:23.That's right. That debate kicks off in a few hours' time. I'm joined by
:16:23. > :16:26.two of the protagonists. First of all, John Baron, can I just ask you,
:16:26. > :16:32.can you give me an example of a time when sanctions without the
:16:32. > :16:36.threat of military force actually work? What we do know with regards
:16:36. > :16:41.to Iran is that the policy of the West, of sanctions and sabre-
:16:41. > :16:45.rattling, has clearly failed. These are yesterday's policies. Iran is
:16:45. > :16:50.not going to give up its nuclear programme, it is about time we
:16:50. > :16:55.accepted that. What my motion does is actually to say, let's take off
:16:55. > :16:59.the table the use of force, which everybody says would be a disaster,
:16:59. > :17:03.let's reduce tensions, bring us back from the brink of war, and
:17:03. > :17:09.redouble our diplomatic efforts. Military intervention should always
:17:09. > :17:14.be the last resort, and we have not reached all other avenues yet.
:17:14. > :17:21.your time as Defence Secretary, Bob Ainsworth, what is it that makes
:17:21. > :17:23.you believe that the threat of military action is even credible?
:17:23. > :17:28.agree with the overwhelming majority of what John Baron said,
:17:28. > :17:38.we really do need to avoid a military outcome to this crisis. It
:17:38. > :17:43.is how you do that. The naive notion that some kind of CND-minded
:17:43. > :17:50.approach, dealing with someone like Iran, actually helps, I think is
:17:50. > :17:58.exactly wrong. What is naive is pursuing a policy which is clearly
:17:58. > :18:02.failing. What women -- what we must do is to realise that we must
:18:02. > :18:05.better engage with Iran. We are keeping on the table the option of
:18:05. > :18:09.force, and this is illogical. We are pursuing a policy which
:18:09. > :18:13.everybody accepts would be a disaster, against a country that
:18:13. > :18:18.chooses to ignore it, and yet the policy Haydn's tensions and reduces
:18:18. > :18:25.the chances of a diplomatic, peaceful outcome. It is a complete
:18:25. > :18:30.nonsense. Isn't it really all about Israel, you want sanctions to be
:18:30. > :18:34.given time to work so that Israel does not act unilaterally, and you
:18:34. > :18:39.want them to know that Britain and America will actually support them,
:18:39. > :18:43.so they will not have to go it alone - is that fair? Well, I
:18:43. > :18:48.believe we should offer Iran implicit recognition of its
:18:48. > :18:53.regional superpower status, we should do what Nixon did in the
:18:53. > :18:58.1960s and 1970s, with China, and actually accept the might of China.
:18:58. > :19:02.We should accept that we created this regional superpower in Iran,
:19:02. > :19:06.through our misguided war in Iraq, which fundamentally altered the
:19:06. > :19:10.balance of power in the region. We need to accept that it is a
:19:10. > :19:14.regional superpower, offer this new relationship and try to reduce
:19:14. > :19:18.tensions that way, which, at the end of the day, would be in
:19:18. > :19:24.Israel's best interests. Ainsworth, do you accept that one
:19:24. > :19:28.day Iran will have nuclear weapons? An awful lot of people have tried
:19:28. > :19:36.to do exactly what John says, Jack Straw had real initiatives with
:19:36. > :19:41.Iran, Barack Obama has reached out the open hand. We are dealing with
:19:41. > :19:45.a religious dictatorship there. It is more worried about its own
:19:45. > :19:49.people than anything else, and it is behaving in very strange ways.
:19:49. > :19:54.They are not ready to assume the role that we all know they are
:19:54. > :19:56.capable of assuming, and we all want them to assume, which is as a
:19:56. > :20:00.very important part of the international community. But with
:20:00. > :20:05.the kind of regime they have got in place, they are never going to do
:20:05. > :20:09.that. This is a paranoid police state, with the panoply of
:20:09. > :20:13.religious Islam as a disguise to that basic fact. Thank you both
:20:13. > :20:18.very much indeed for that. As you can see, a very complex question,
:20:18. > :20:21.for which there would seem to be no easy answers, and no consensus in
:20:21. > :20:24.the House of Commons, for the moment. That debate taking place
:20:25. > :20:27.later this afternoon. Recent statistics about British
:20:27. > :20:34.manufacturing show that some parts have been hit by the recession, but
:20:34. > :20:38.other areas, such as car production, are growing well. Are government
:20:38. > :20:48.efforts to rebalance the economy towards manufacturing what
:20:48. > :20:51.
:20:51. > :20:55.businesses actually need? We visited a company and Rochdale.
:20:55. > :21:00.There is an idea that British manufacturing is somehow in
:21:00. > :21:04.terminal decline, from world leader to life-support in 30 years. Like
:21:04. > :21:08.all legends, there is a spark of truth, some firms have gone to the
:21:08. > :21:11.wall, people have lost jobs, certain products we once made and
:21:12. > :21:16.sold to the world are now made to the rest of the world, and we buy.
:21:16. > :21:20.But it is not the whole story. Parts of UK manufacturing are very
:21:20. > :21:24.far from ready to lie down and expire. Granada Material Handling
:21:24. > :21:28.have been building lifting equipment for about 30 years, but
:21:28. > :21:31.whilst everyone was going through a recession, they branched out,
:21:31. > :21:35.taking something of a risk, into the niche market of making lifting
:21:35. > :21:40.equipment for offshore wind farms. And it seems that British
:21:40. > :21:45.manufacturing is not really dying, but those that are small, able to
:21:45. > :21:50.adapt, are the best equipped to survive. The figures tend to hide
:21:50. > :21:54.this evolution, but signs of improvement are there. According to
:21:54. > :21:57.the Office of National Statistics, manufacturing output fell by. Take
:21:57. > :22:07.coffee in the last quarter of last year, however, it bounced back in
:22:07. > :22:11.
:22:11. > :22:17.December, increasing by a 1%. -- fell by 0.8% in the last quarter.
:22:17. > :22:21.The key to rebalancing the economy would seem to be exports. The worst
:22:21. > :22:25.part was October, November, when businesses really battened down the
:22:25. > :22:30.hatches, mainly because they were worried about the eurozone. Now,
:22:30. > :22:36.there are tentative signs that the storm cloud is moving away. Granada,
:22:36. > :22:40.and companies like them, are keen to explore new markets, design new
:22:40. > :22:46.products, and above all, feel positive. They are the best hope
:22:46. > :22:50.for UK manufacturing. Can the state help foster that? There's a lot of
:22:50. > :22:54.businesses out there which are looking to government to help them
:22:55. > :22:59.get over the hurdle of diversifying, getting into new industries. There
:22:59. > :23:03.is also an area of lethargy in British manufacturing - you have to
:23:03. > :23:07.get out there and, to a certain extent, do-it-yourself. There is
:23:07. > :23:14.plenty of work out there, you have just got to go and get it, it is
:23:14. > :23:24.out there. The question that should be rattling politicians is, is the
:23:24. > :23:25.
:23:25. > :23:27.help they are actually offering what firms actually need? Is the
:23:27. > :23:31.government responding quickly enough in a rapidly changing
:23:31. > :23:36.economic landscape? So, is the Government doing the right thing
:23:36. > :23:42.for British business, to rebalance the economy? We are joined by the
:23:42. > :23:46.head of Isuzu Trucks UK, Nikki King, and we are also joined by a former
:23:46. > :23:50.science minister, from the last Labour government, Lord Drayson,
:23:50. > :23:55.who now runs his own company. How much help should the Government
:23:55. > :23:58.give to manufacturing? The state needs to recognise that
:23:58. > :24:02.manufacturing has to go a lot faster, to compensate for the
:24:02. > :24:06.shrinking public sector, and the shrinking financial sector. We
:24:06. > :24:10.already have a strong manufacturing sector, but it needs to do even
:24:10. > :24:13.better. Should it be doing so more on its own, that's the point? Does
:24:13. > :24:18.it come back to the question about picking winners, which has always
:24:18. > :24:22.been dangerous, for the Government, to say, we're going to invest in
:24:22. > :24:26.this car manufacturer, it is going to create such and such a number of
:24:26. > :24:30.jobs. No government should pick winners, but the Government should
:24:30. > :24:34.be identifying, what other things which are stopping growth, and what
:24:34. > :24:40.can government do to remove those? One of the most important right now
:24:40. > :24:43.is the need for investment. We have an opportunity to capitalise on the
:24:43. > :24:51.strong growth which we are seeing in certain sectors, but it is being
:24:51. > :25:01.held back by a lack of finance. That finance is needed to invest in
:25:01. > :25:04.reedack, to invest in plants, which the companies need. The banks are
:25:04. > :25:14.not providing enough financed a manufacturing business. This needs
:25:14. > :25:14.
:25:14. > :25:17.to be addressed quite urgently. Do you agree with that, that the
:25:17. > :25:22.investment should come in some form or another from the government, if
:25:22. > :25:26.the banks are not going to provide it? Yes, absolutely, I think the
:25:26. > :25:32.government ought to be offering guarantees at least to businesses.
:25:32. > :25:36.It is a big issue not just in manufacturing, but overall call for
:25:36. > :25:43.-- but overall. It is a fact of life that the banks are not lending
:25:43. > :25:53.money. But how do you pick those businesses? It is such a dangerous
:25:53. > :25:53.
:25:53. > :25:58.game, isn't it, for governments? think we should have a balanced
:25:58. > :26:01.economy, we should be helping everybody. There's strong signs of
:26:01. > :26:08.lots of people starting small businesses, it is an overall
:26:08. > :26:11.situation, but the Government has to grasp. But should we go for the
:26:11. > :26:15.export-led recovery? Absolutely, we know where the growth opportunities
:26:15. > :26:19.are, we know that countries like Brazil and China are growing fast,
:26:19. > :26:23.and we have a good idea of what those countries want, so we can
:26:23. > :26:27.look at the sectors which the UK has real competitive advantage in,
:26:27. > :26:32.and say, if we invest in those sectors, provide the investment
:26:32. > :26:36.that is needed, those sectors can win for us. I agree with the
:26:36. > :26:41.principle, but having dealt for many years with the country 6,000
:26:41. > :26:45.miles away, I know that to grow businesses overseas takes a long
:26:45. > :26:49.time. It is a long-term strategy. You do not just suddenly get up one
:26:49. > :26:54.morning and say, I'm going to sell to Brazil. You have to develop
:26:54. > :26:59.links, partnerships, trust, all of these things. It takes a bit longer
:26:59. > :27:04.than just having a weak pound for a while. But the Government can also
:27:04. > :27:08.do things in small ways, which make a big difference. In my sector,
:27:08. > :27:12.high-performance engineering, motor sport, the UK leads the world, but
:27:12. > :27:17.we have a real shortage in skilled engineers, particularly systems
:27:17. > :27:20.engineers. Where do you get them from? So, we need more people
:27:20. > :27:23.studying these subjects at university. Frankly, the
:27:23. > :27:26.universities need to be directed by the Government to put on the
:27:26. > :27:30.courses that industry needs. We have this tragedy of youth
:27:30. > :27:34.unemployment at the moment. I graduated during a recession in the
:27:34. > :27:38.1980s, I know what it is like. I was lucky enough to study advanced
:27:38. > :27:41.manufacturing, and I have had a successful career. We do not train
:27:41. > :27:44.enough people in Advanced Manufacturing Technologies, and not
:27:44. > :27:48.enough young people know that there are really good job opportunities
:27:48. > :27:56.for them in these areas. But it comes back to the issue of
:27:56. > :28:00.investment, doesn't it? Yes, and again, it is long-term investment.
:28:00. > :28:03.So, is it still the key to the recovery? It is not necessarily
:28:03. > :28:07.about spending more money, it is sometimes about shifting resources
:28:07. > :28:11.from one area to another. For example, that could mean
:28:11. > :28:15.identifying those courses, in pharmaceuticals, another great
:28:15. > :28:19.success story for UK manufacturing, there is a shortage of
:28:19. > :28:26.pharmacologists. So, universities need to train more, there are jobs
:28:26. > :28:29.for those people. Thank you both very much. So, we're back from
:28:29. > :28:33.recess, and we have got a packed week ahead. In a moment I will be
:28:33. > :28:37.joined by two of the brightest and best from Fleet Street. First, we
:28:37. > :28:42.can take a look at what we can expect this week. European finance
:28:42. > :28:48.ministers are meeting today to discuss the bail-out Greece needs
:28:48. > :28:52.to stave off bankruptcy. Some have doubted whether the deal will be
:28:52. > :28:57.enough to keep the country in the euro. On Wednesday, Labour are
:28:57. > :29:07.holding an opposition day debate on the NHS reforms. The debate will
:29:07. > :29:09.
:29:09. > :29:13.centre on the publication of the NHS Risk Register & Report. And
:29:13. > :29:19.following the news that News International will be publishing a
:29:19. > :29:29.Sun on Sunday, we have found out that it will be published this
:29:29. > :29:32.
:29:32. > :29:36.Sunday. I think you can just see the sun over their shoulder. Let's
:29:36. > :29:40.get a little response to the news, first of all, from Craig Woodhouse.
:29:40. > :29:46.The timing is interesting, for the launch of this new newspaper?
:29:46. > :29:49.it was only Friday when Rupert Murdoch said there would be a Sun
:29:49. > :29:53.on Sunday very soon, I don't think anybody thought that would mean a
:29:53. > :29:57.week on Sunday. But it has certainly centre bars around Fleet
:29:57. > :30:04.Street, at a time when we're feeling battered and bruised. -- it
:30:04. > :30:09.has certainly sent a buzz around Fleet Street. I have to say, I
:30:09. > :30:12.thought it was a bit cheeky on the part of Rupert Murdoch, just when
:30:12. > :30:16.some senior journalists are being investigated by the police, he
:30:16. > :30:20.comes in and announces, Right, far from hiding away, we're going to
:30:20. > :30:24.come up with something special, which we were not expecting. You
:30:24. > :30:31.have to hand it to him, amazing. is not holding back. Let's talk
:30:31. > :30:34.about the health reforms. You have written today, Jackie Ashley, that
:30:34. > :30:39.the bill is no longer really functioning, because it has had the
:30:39. > :30:42.guts ripped out of it. But we have heard that there are more than 200
:30:42. > :30:48.new commissioning groups in England, these reforms are happening anyway,
:30:48. > :30:52.aren't they? They are, but I would argue it is not too late to stop it.
:30:52. > :30:56.There is a sense of, we have made a mess of it, but we're going to
:30:56. > :31:03.carry on and make a worse mess of it. That is a great pity, I think.
:31:03. > :31:08.There are too many doctors, and lots of other people, who should be
:31:08. > :31:10.coming to this summit today, one not. If it is going to work, you
:31:10. > :31:14.have to carry the medical profession with you. That's not to
:31:14. > :31:24.mention the patients, who do not seem to have a voice in this.
:31:24. > :31:25.
:31:25. > :31:30.They spent so long in opposition trying to convince people that the
:31:30. > :31:35.NHS would be safe in Tory hands and Labour have quite rightly jumped on
:31:35. > :31:39.this and every day with a negative headline is another day the voters
:31:39. > :31:44.will think, can we trust the Tories with the NHS? That could be fatal
:31:44. > :31:49.for the next election. Labour think they're on top of this issue and
:31:49. > :31:55.gaining ground but there are problems from the Liberal Democrats
:31:55. > :31:59.still. Simon Hughes effectively said that Andrew Lansley should go
:31:59. > :32:05.and the Lib Dems have their conference coming up where there
:32:05. > :32:08.will be calls to vote against part of the bill. Last year's Liberal
:32:08. > :32:12.Democrats' spring conference was dominated by this issue, it would
:32:12. > :32:19.surely Williams leading the charge, and I think we will get even more
:32:19. > :32:26.on this issue, but it seems to beat the All wrong way round to
:32:26. > :32:30.reshuffle Andrew Lansley after the Bill has been passed. Andrew
:32:30. > :32:33.Lansley should be reshuffled right now and somebody else can at least
:32:33. > :32:39.explain it better and except some of the amendments passed in the
:32:39. > :32:45.Lords and make this Bill a lot better. Moving on to their health
:32:45. > :32:54.of Ed Miliband's leadership. This seems to be Ed Balls's pre-Budget
:32:54. > :32:58.salvo on tax cuts. Economics aside, is this a clever wheeze in terms of
:32:58. > :33:03.trying to allow himself to the Tory Right and Lib Dems of raising the
:33:03. > :33:08.tax threshold at the same time? thought Ed Balls's intervention was
:33:08. > :33:13.fascinating. A lot of what he has already been saying he freshened up,
:33:13. > :33:18.and then allied with the Lib Dem call for the �10,000 income tax
:33:18. > :33:22.threshold. The question is, with people see him already have such a
:33:22. > :33:27.political animal and say, this is Ed Balls using politics but would
:33:27. > :33:33.it be good for the economy? What do you think? With heat and George
:33:33. > :33:36.Osborne to go for these tax cuts -- will he tempt George Osborne?
:33:36. > :33:41.will be difficult for George Osborne to do nothing because the
:33:41. > :33:47.argument everybody has put to him is without tax cuts, there will be
:33:47. > :33:51.no growth. Growth is the big worry. The Tory Right are calling for the
:33:51. > :33:54.50 pence tax rate to come down well made that and the Lib Dems are
:33:54. > :34:00.calling for more help from the bottom but I would be surprised if
:34:00. > :34:03.he did not do something. Thank you. Joining us for the next half hour
:34:03. > :34:06.or so to look forward to the political week is our panel of MPs,
:34:06. > :34:14.the Liberal Democrat, John Pugh. Labour's Theresa Pearce and the
:34:14. > :34:20.Conservative, Gavin Barwell. Welcome. On this call for early tax
:34:20. > :34:27.cuts, what do you think? The Tory party have always called for tax
:34:27. > :34:31.cuts. Unfunded tax cuts are not the right way to go. If we were to put
:34:31. > :34:36.Borodin up even further, that could have serious consequences for
:34:36. > :34:42.interest rates but I think there is a case if we can find a way of
:34:42. > :34:47.making changes to the tax system or other savings or a tax cut to help
:34:47. > :34:55.the economy and personally, my opinion is the priority should be
:34:55. > :35:01.those in work on middle and low incomes. Which bit of good balls's
:35:01. > :35:07.proposals -- Ed Balls? Would you target it directly? The coalition
:35:07. > :35:11.agreement has a clear commitment... Not now. The problem is Ed Balls is
:35:11. > :35:19.making these suggestions were that any idea of how they will be paid
:35:19. > :35:25.for. -- without any idea. Yes, tax cuts are not desirable if you have
:35:25. > :35:32.to borrow more. Labour's five point plan has been set out a number of
:35:32. > :35:36.times. We should be looking at VAT and collecting tax that is due.
:35:36. > :35:43.Rangers Football Club 040 it million pounds in tax. That is what
:35:43. > :35:47.we should be doing -- �48 million. Would you be happy to increase
:35:48. > :35:52.borrowing in order to have tax cuts? No, I don't think we should
:35:52. > :35:56.be increasing borrowing. You have a Labour MP who does not think there
:35:56. > :36:00.should be increased borrowing. Where would you make the cut
:36:00. > :36:05.squares that the Chancellor would have to look at how to arrange
:36:05. > :36:10.things. Whether there are changes to make him the tax system to make
:36:10. > :36:15.it their wrath. I want to see people on low to middle income has
:36:15. > :36:20.given a helping hand -- make it Sarah. We don't know if George
:36:20. > :36:24.Osborne has the head room to make any of these changes. It is
:36:24. > :36:28.certainly highly desirable that he does because it will boost consumer
:36:28. > :36:33.demand. Because you think all austerity measures have gone too
:36:33. > :36:38.far? Economics is an art and George Osborne is good at that. He needs
:36:38. > :36:44.to make the relevant adjustments in the right way. We don't need to be
:36:44. > :36:49.too bothered about loss of face, we need to get it right. But you agree
:36:49. > :36:53.with Nick Clegg that raising threshold now...? That is crucial.
:36:53. > :36:57.It is the one lever you can push which will have a definite effect
:36:57. > :37:04.on demand and will feed through into growth. What about mansion
:37:04. > :37:10.tax? I think we should look at that. The research on that is very poor.
:37:10. > :37:13.I think it would be highly desirable, to. Let's move to Greece.
:37:13. > :37:16.Eurozone finance ministers are meeting today and the big question
:37:16. > :37:23.is whether or not to authorise a second bailout for Greece worth 130
:37:23. > :37:25.billion euros. The deal follows months of wrangling, with the Greek
:37:25. > :37:28.parliament agreeing to ever tougher austerity measures and private
:37:28. > :37:32.holders of Greek debt effectively being forced to accept a 70% write-
:37:32. > :37:34.down. On the Sunday Politics yesterday, the Greek Minister for
:37:34. > :37:36.International Economic Relations, Constantine Papadopoulos, told
:37:36. > :37:40.Andrew Neil that Greece was committed to achieving its debt
:37:40. > :37:49.targets but it involved making major sacrifices. It has come to
:37:49. > :37:52.the crunch and don't underestimate what we did under the first
:37:52. > :37:58.memorandum. A lot of things were done but a lot more needs to be
:37:58. > :38:04.done. There is so much to do, it would be unrealistic to expect
:38:04. > :38:09.things to happen in a matter of two years. If it wasn't for the
:38:09. > :38:15.pressure from the financial markets, what we are aiming for would
:38:15. > :38:19.normally take something like five or ten years. That is how ambitious
:38:19. > :38:26.the programme Mears. But we are forced to do it in a much shorter
:38:26. > :38:31.space of time. The pain on the Greek economy. Do you trust the
:38:31. > :38:35.Greeks to make these reforms? sceptical about happy endings. I
:38:35. > :38:40.think it is quite likely that Greece will drop out of the
:38:40. > :38:44.eurozone and there needs to be a mechanism for doing that without
:38:44. > :38:50.damaging the other members. Greece is a drama between austerity and
:38:50. > :38:54.democracy. Austerity being demanded by the world and the people not
:38:54. > :38:59.have the with what they need to do. Because they don't think they will
:38:59. > :39:05.ever be competitive again? Because they are in between a rock and hard
:39:05. > :39:10.place. Should they stay or go? is a really difficult question and
:39:10. > :39:15.it needs to be a problem for the whole of the eurozone. There needs
:39:15. > :39:20.to be collective responsibility. I don't think the Germans are playing
:39:20. > :39:25.a long as they should do. My concern, it is like a giant game of
:39:25. > :39:30.gender. You pull one bit out and everything falls down. The eurozone
:39:30. > :39:35.is totally important to the UK recovery so it is something we need
:39:35. > :39:40.to look at carefully. It is a single currency. We have collective
:39:40. > :39:45.responsibility. It sounds like you would rather Greece stays in the
:39:45. > :39:50.eurozone. I don't think there is a simple answer, that is the problem.
:39:50. > :39:57.The least worst option is what we are looking at now. Is it in terms
:39:57. > :40:01.of Britain? George Osborne has made a lot of the fact that our fortunes
:40:01. > :40:06.have been as a result of what has gone on in the eurozone? Labour
:40:06. > :40:11.disagrees with that to some extent. Would it make a big difference if
:40:11. > :40:17.Greece went? The best option for the UK is a resolution.
:40:17. > :40:20.resolution is the bail-out. seems to me that the other members
:40:20. > :40:26.of the eurozone have dragged their feet about whether they are willing
:40:26. > :40:30.to provide the money because they are not convinced about the Greek's
:40:30. > :40:34.government's ability to repay. I was not in favour of Britain
:40:34. > :40:40.joining the single currency. I think the there is a problem with
:40:40. > :40:46.people having different interest rates with the same currency but it
:40:46. > :40:50.has to stop dragging on. There are elections coming up in April and
:40:50. > :40:56.that is the problem. Are you happy that Britain has contributed to the
:40:57. > :41:02.bail-out? We don't know that yet. The IMF is there to help countries,
:41:02. > :41:07.not the currency. But there is a grey area. Are you in principle
:41:07. > :41:12.happy with that? I think it is right for the IMF to help countries
:41:12. > :41:22.that are in need of assistance. The first responsibility has to be with
:41:22. > :41:24.
:41:24. > :41:28.the eurozone, the he's ECB, I think -- and the ECB. You are looking at
:41:28. > :41:34.potentially a 20% fall in living standards for degrees, twice what
:41:34. > :41:39.this country went through in the Great Depression -- in Greece. I
:41:39. > :41:44.think Parliament will want to look at... This is politically
:41:44. > :41:49.unbelievable in the UK context. Ruling out joining the euro ever?
:41:49. > :41:54.don't think it is on the distant horizon at the moment. I think that
:41:54. > :41:59.eurozone needs to spend a fair amount of time sorting itself out.
:41:59. > :42:03.The ground rules are not there. Or working effectively. Time to move
:42:03. > :42:06.Now according to at least one newspaper this weekend, the
:42:06. > :42:09.Education Secretary Michael Gove is planning to ban parents in England
:42:09. > :42:13.from taking their children out of school during term time to go on
:42:13. > :42:17.holiday. At the moment, head- teachers have some discretion in
:42:17. > :42:20.this area and often let families sneak off for a couple of weeks.
:42:20. > :42:22.But ministers don't like the effect this all has on overall attendance
:42:22. > :42:26.rates. Russell Hobby, General Secretary of the National
:42:26. > :42:31.Association of Head Teachers, joins us now from Brighton. What do you
:42:31. > :42:35.think of the idea from Michael Gove? Although I sympathise with
:42:35. > :42:40.people in a holiday crisis, education is more precious so I do
:42:40. > :42:45.think we need to do something serious to limit term-time holidays.
:42:45. > :42:49.A child has about 10 days a year off sick leave. If they take
:42:49. > :42:53.another 10 days off on holiday they have lost another 10 days of
:42:53. > :42:57.education and that is very hard to get back. Should it be that Dick
:42:57. > :43:01.tapped? Should it be up to head teachers themselves to make that
:43:01. > :43:08.decision was map we need to be very clear that it is not acceptable and
:43:08. > :43:14.I think it is a social issue rather than the choice of head teachers.
:43:14. > :43:19.There are what occasions where for important reasons, such as service
:43:19. > :43:22.personnel coming back, where you might want to grant that but there
:43:22. > :43:27.needs to be a general realisation that you take holidays in the
:43:27. > :43:31.holiday period. Parents would argue that we know that costs rocket in
:43:31. > :43:35.the school holidays and it seems to be extremely unfair and you may be
:43:35. > :43:39.talking about depriving some families off a break of any sort
:43:40. > :43:46.for the sake of a few days. Does it really have that much impact on
:43:46. > :43:48.their learning? Not two days but when it becomes a persistent habit
:43:48. > :43:53.and there of families that persistently take their holidays
:43:53. > :43:59.during term-time, including skiing trips and that sort of thing. Then
:43:59. > :44:04.I think we need to stop that. you not think it is ironic when the
:44:04. > :44:08.government is advocating free schools, free to put forward their
:44:08. > :44:14.own curriculum, so shouldn't they be free to decide whether they
:44:14. > :44:17.allow children to go on holiday in term time? They should be free to
:44:17. > :44:22.decide when their holiday periods should be and there is a lot to be
:44:22. > :44:26.done in terms of looking at the structure of our holidays. It's
:44:26. > :44:31.different areas had holidays at different times, that would even it
:44:31. > :44:34.out. If we had more holidays for shorter durations, that would take
:44:34. > :44:41.the pressure off the summer holiday, and I think that is what we should
:44:41. > :44:45.do. Russell Hobby, stay with us. That is interesting. Is it time to
:44:46. > :44:51.shake up the system and say, let's have holidays at different times?
:44:51. > :44:54.Parents want holidays at predictable times. I used to be a
:44:54. > :44:58.teacher and head teachers put downward pressure on parents who
:44:58. > :45:04.want to take holidays when the schools do not want them to. This
:45:04. > :45:10.has happened for a long time. But there are extenuating circumstances
:45:10. > :45:14.and there is the schizophrenia in Michael's attitude. At one stage he
:45:14. > :45:19.says head teachers need discretion, and then he is ending discretion in
:45:19. > :45:25.a sense. That seems wholly inconsistent. You can't just into
:45:25. > :45:35.be when you want to. That is the point. We have to see the detail.
:45:35. > :45:39.
:45:39. > :45:43.There is an inconsistency here, isn't there? As Russell said, there
:45:43. > :45:47.is a problem with some families persistently taking children out of
:45:47. > :45:50.school. I imagine the Secretary of State is trying to send a clear
:45:50. > :45:55.message that it is not acceptable. We have already got the clear
:45:55. > :45:59.message, it has been around for generations. The effect on
:45:59. > :46:04.education is marginal, to be absolutely frank. The discretion of
:46:04. > :46:09.Head Teachers is an important aspect of the education system.
:46:09. > :46:13.am a parent, so I have sympathy, in terms of the cost of holidays. Just
:46:13. > :46:17.a couple of days is marginal, but you will know, if you look at the
:46:17. > :46:22.figures, within a families, there are some families for whom it is
:46:22. > :46:25.much more than a couple of days. you agree with the idea of a ban?
:46:25. > :46:31.No, I think it should be up to individual schools and head
:46:31. > :46:34.teachers. Although educationally it may not have a huge effect, I think
:46:34. > :46:37.it has a subliminal effect on children, about respecting the
:46:37. > :46:45.rules of the school. I think it is important for them to learn to
:46:45. > :46:51.respect teachers. This is why head teachers in general are very severe
:46:51. > :46:55.on this. But they do allow it, don't they? Well, they have to, in
:46:55. > :47:02.certain circumstances. I do not know how much effect it might have
:47:02. > :47:06.on lessons, on making sure that everybody is keeping up... If there
:47:06. > :47:10.were an absolute ban, do we expect that the attendance officer will be
:47:10. > :47:16.going round to people's houses? I don't think these things have been
:47:16. > :47:21.thought through. Do you think he should drop the idea? I want to see
:47:21. > :47:29.the detail first, but I think we are not talking about a ban, we're
:47:30. > :47:33.talking about headteachers... I think we are. Well, my
:47:33. > :47:39.understanding was that it would actually be unauthorised absence.
:47:39. > :47:43.Well, that is a ban, effectively. think there is an issue in terms of
:47:43. > :47:50.pupil attendance at schools, so I think Secretary of State is right
:47:50. > :47:54.to look at the issue. What about this issue of changing the holidays,
:47:54. > :48:00.this idea that we have so many weeks over the summer, is that
:48:00. > :48:07.practical, should the holidays be rearranged? I think if holidays
:48:07. > :48:10.were shorter, more spread out, it would be better, but what I would
:48:10. > :48:14.not want to see is different schools having different holiday
:48:14. > :48:19.periods, because some families have children at different schools, and
:48:19. > :48:22.that would be a nightmare. Yes, would it not be very difficult to
:48:23. > :48:28.administrate that idea of having a whole range of holidays, it would
:48:28. > :48:31.have to be consistent across the country, wouldn't it? It would have
:48:31. > :48:35.to become law within a local authority area. That would be the
:48:35. > :48:40.main thing, particularly if you have got one child at primary, and
:48:40. > :48:44.another at secondary. Beyond that, there is room for some variation
:48:45. > :48:48.across the country, I think. Members of parliament have just had
:48:48. > :48:58.a recess which is timed to fit in with the school holidays, for those
:48:58. > :48:59.
:48:59. > :49:04.who have got children. So, the News Of The World is dead, long live the
:49:04. > :49:10.Sun on Sunday. But with police investigations and golfing the
:49:10. > :49:13.operations of the newspaper, can the new publication restore
:49:14. > :49:17.fortunes and reputations? Alastair Campbell, Tony Blair's former
:49:17. > :49:21.Director of Communications, thinks the new Sun on Sunday might
:49:21. > :49:31.struggle. I think it is fair to make the case that the closure of
:49:31. > :49:34.the News Of The World came at a moment of panic. I don't know the
:49:34. > :49:39.extent to which the proper preparation for the launch of a new
:49:39. > :49:44.Sunday title has been done. If it has been put together in a rush,
:49:44. > :49:49.then I suspect it will not be a success. In any event, they cannot
:49:49. > :49:52.assume that the daily Sun readers will automatically by the paper on
:49:52. > :50:02.a Sunday, and nor can they assume that former News of the World
:50:02. > :50:05.
:50:05. > :50:15.readers will automatically buy this one. I am joined now by the
:50:15. > :50:15.
:50:15. > :50:19.spokesman for the Hacked Off campaign. I think the question is
:50:19. > :50:24.not whether there is another Sunday paper, good luck to any new entrant
:50:24. > :50:27.into the Sunday market, it is a free market, and Mr Murdoch is
:50:27. > :50:33.entitled to publish a paper in this country, the question is whether
:50:33. > :50:37.the standards will be improved, whether or not News International,
:50:37. > :50:41.and the Sun in particular, has understood what is acceptable and
:50:41. > :50:46.what is not. It is not clear that that's the case, judging from
:50:46. > :50:51.recent events. Saying that, we have had all the revelations, it has
:50:51. > :50:54.been extremely expensive and embarrassing, the News Of The World
:50:55. > :50:59.closed, we have got the Leveson Inquiry - do you not have the faith
:50:59. > :51:04.that they will have learnt lessons from it? I'm fairly confident that
:51:04. > :51:09.they will not hack phones, but there is more to it than that. News
:51:09. > :51:14.International titles, not just the News of the World, were mentioned
:51:14. > :51:19.in the evidence of industrial scale data mining by many of the national
:51:19. > :51:24.newspapers, which was uncovered around 2002. News International, in
:51:24. > :51:28.their evidence to the Leveson Inquiry, have not accepted what the
:51:28. > :51:31.Information Commissioner says, that that was unlawful activity, the
:51:31. > :51:36.procuring of that information - mobile phone numbers, friends and
:51:36. > :51:42.family numbers, accessing vehicle registration numbers at the DVLA -
:51:42. > :51:45.they have not accepted that it was unlawful. So it is not clear that
:51:45. > :51:48.News International have yet understood the difference between
:51:48. > :51:54.lawful and ethical conduct as journalists and unlawful or
:51:54. > :51:58.unethical conduct. And it is the same with the police inquiry.
:51:59. > :52:01.Nobody is arguing that sources should be protected when they're
:52:01. > :52:05.whistle blowers, but there was a huge difference between a public
:52:05. > :52:09.official who was a whistleblower, and someone in the police force
:52:09. > :52:18.who's paid a retainer of �10,000 a year to systematically give
:52:18. > :52:24.information to a newspaper. Surely the test will be public opinion,
:52:24. > :52:27.whether people buy the paper or not. At has never been an effective test
:52:27. > :52:35.of whether the secret news- gathering methods used by
:52:35. > :52:39.newspapers are lawful, because of the News Of The World -- because we
:52:39. > :52:43.now know what was going on at the News of the World. I don't think
:52:43. > :52:49.anybody is arguing that if people buy it, anything goes. No, we need
:52:49. > :52:54.to make sure that not only the content, which I'm sure will be as
:52:54. > :52:59.edgy as the Sun, and there is nothing wrong with that, complies
:53:00. > :53:06.with the code, but at the same time, that News International
:53:07. > :53:11.demonstrates that it has understood what being ethical means. Will you
:53:11. > :53:21.buy the paper? Actually, I do buy papers which are personally
:53:21. > :53:28.disagree with, to educate myself. So, yes, I will see what it is like.
:53:28. > :53:33.What about in your area, John Pugh, will people be buying it? I am from
:53:33. > :53:37.the Lancashire area, and very few people by the Sun at all. But I
:53:37. > :53:40.would like to see Merga producing a newspaper which is a heck of a lot
:53:40. > :53:45.better than the Sun has been. you think people will buy it in
:53:45. > :53:53.your area? There is very little chance, given the history of the
:53:53. > :53:56.Sun and Hillsborough. Do you welcome this new publication?
:53:56. > :54:01.scandal we have had, and the Leveson Inquiry, have opened up
:54:01. > :54:04.some very important issues, but the tabloid newspapers are a very
:54:04. > :54:09.important part of the political process, in terms of holding the
:54:09. > :54:19.politicians to account, and I think at its best, the Sun can be a
:54:19. > :54:20.
:54:20. > :54:23.strong voice for hard-working people. Incidentally, this is not
:54:23. > :54:26.just an issue for News International. But the point is,
:54:26. > :54:32.there will be no great test of whether or not they have learned
:54:32. > :54:36.those lessons. That's right. It is not a new newspaper we need, it is
:54:36. > :54:41.a new culture. The culture of any newspaper comes from the top, and
:54:41. > :54:46.it remains to be seen whether that has changed. So, has it come too
:54:46. > :54:52.early, do you think? I think it has, and this is not a new newspaper,
:54:52. > :54:56.really, it is just an extra edition of the Sun, on a Sunday. Alastair
:54:56. > :55:04.Campbell alluded to the fact that newspapers running six days a week
:55:04. > :55:08.are not always successful, so, why launch it now? That is a commercial
:55:08. > :55:10.decision for News International, it is a free market. But the test is
:55:10. > :55:20.whether or not we see an improvement in journalistic
:55:20. > :55:24.
:55:25. > :55:29.standards. I think it is important, this cannot be just about News
:55:29. > :55:32.International producing another version of the News Of The World. I
:55:32. > :55:36.think there would be deep distaste from the public if that happens. If,
:55:36. > :55:40.on the other hand, it emerges as something completely different, a
:55:41. > :55:43.better newspaper, then I think people will appreciate that. Do you
:55:43. > :55:48.have faith that the Press Complaints commission, with its new
:55:48. > :55:53.head, will be more effective? particularly, no. We will have to
:55:53. > :55:58.see. I think there is a widespread cynicism on this, about self-
:55:58. > :56:05.regulation in general. I think we will just have to see what happens.
:56:05. > :56:09.But the ball is in the newspapers' court. People said the Press
:56:09. > :56:14.Complaints commission did not do the job it was supposed to do
:56:14. > :56:17.effectively - will it be any different this time? I am cynical
:56:17. > :56:27.about that, I think we need something completely independent of
:56:27. > :56:28.
:56:28. > :56:34.the press. As the public, we are regulators, if you do not like a
:56:34. > :56:38.newspaper, do not buy it. We all have a part to play in this.
:56:38. > :56:41.Whitney Houston died, how many extra editions were put on that
:56:41. > :56:47.morning. We buy things which are salacious and unpleasant, and we
:56:47. > :56:51.have to look to ourselves, we get the press we deserve some times.
:56:51. > :56:55.The press are now in the media spotlight themselves, and it is the
:56:55. > :57:01.media who will keep them honest. Are you going to buy it on Sunday?
:57:01. > :57:06.No, I will probably look at their online content. That's cheating! I
:57:06. > :57:12.do not know how much it will cost. Will you buy it? I doubt it, it
:57:12. > :57:18.will probably be behind a firewall. I do not buy Sunday newspapers,
:57:18. > :57:23.life is too short. Why not? They fill the house, and I never get
:57:23. > :57:29.round to reading them. You said you hoped it would be a success - do
:57:29. > :57:32.you think it will be? I think the Sun and the News Of The World, at
:57:32. > :57:38.their best, performed a very important role. They broke some
:57:38. > :57:42.important stories, as well as the very and six -- as well as the
:57:42. > :57:46.unacceptable things which went on. So in that sense, I hope it is a
:57:47. > :57:56.success, yes. But do you think with the Leveson Inquiry going on, has
:57:57. > :57:57.
:57:57. > :58:03.the whole story moved on, will people forget about this? You would
:58:03. > :58:13.hope that the Leveson Inquiry will set a new standard for journalism.
:58:13. > :58:14.
:58:14. > :58:20.It might not be for another year or so. It needs to be a change in
:58:20. > :58:27.culture, and that culture comes from the top. But a new newspaper,
:58:27. > :58:37.something which keeps journalists in work, I welcome it. Thank you
:58:37. > :58:37.