22/02/2012

:00:42. > :00:45.Good morning. This is the Daily Politics.

:00:45. > :00:48.Today's top story: Former Defence Secretary, Liam Fox, calls for more

:00:48. > :00:50.public spending cuts to fund tax cuts for business. As lobbying

:00:50. > :00:54.intensifies ahead of next month's Budget, has the Chancellor got any

:00:54. > :00:56.room for manoeuvre? Iain Duncan Smith's flagship work

:00:56. > :01:03.experience programme for jobseekers is under pressure, as Tesco's,

:01:04. > :01:08.Argos and Superdrug demand changes to the scheme. So is it a great

:01:08. > :01:10.leg-up for the unemployed, or the equivalent of 'forced labour'?

:01:10. > :01:14.It's Wednesday so it must be Prime Minister's Questions. We'll bring

:01:14. > :01:18.you live coverage of PMQs from Noon as Ed Miliband squares up to David

:01:18. > :01:21.Cameron. And, as Nick Clegg visits an

:01:21. > :01:31.Olympics venue, the writer and historian, Iain Sinclair, says the

:01:31. > :01:32.

:01:32. > :01:37.Games are a disaster for East London. We need to defend the magic

:01:37. > :01:47.and the interest of what this area already was - a place of industrial

:01:47. > :01:51.

:01:51. > :01:54.fossils, wild beauty and thriving All that to come before 1:00pm, and

:01:54. > :01:58.with us for the whole programme two accomplished political performers.

:01:58. > :02:01.In fact you could say they are the Adele and James Corden of

:02:01. > :02:07.Westminster! Caroline Flint, the shadow energy secretary, and the

:02:08. > :02:10.policing minister, Nick Herbert. Welcome to you both. Now, there are

:02:11. > :02:14.still four weeks to go before the Budget but George Osborne is

:02:14. > :02:23.probably already a bit fed up of all the demands being made on him

:02:23. > :02:26.and the unwanted public advice from some of his own backbenchers.

:02:26. > :02:28.Yes, the former Defence Secretary, Liam Fox, has returned to politics

:02:28. > :02:31.with a call for business regulations to be scrapped and

:02:31. > :02:33.further public spending reductions to pay for tax cuts Some other

:02:33. > :02:36.Conservative backbenchers are threatening to rebel unless the

:02:36. > :02:39.Chancellor changes plans to cut child benefit from all higher rate

:02:39. > :02:49.tax payers The CBI says that business taxes should be cut by

:02:49. > :02:52.

:02:52. > :02:55.�500 million to boost growth and investment. Lib Dem, David Laws,

:02:55. > :03:01.says pension tax relief for high earners should be scrapped to pay

:03:01. > :03:04.for raising the income tax threshold to �10,000 immediately.

:03:04. > :03:07.And Ed Balls, the Shadow Chancellor, has also called for tax cuts

:03:07. > :03:09.suggesting a range of options for the Chancellor to be paid for by

:03:09. > :03:17.extra borrowing. So, Nick Herbert, will the

:03:17. > :03:24.Chancellor listen to his former Cabinet colleague, Liam Fox? They

:03:24. > :03:29.used to share a curry together in the Treasury. We will have to wait

:03:29. > :03:35.and see what happens in the Budget. There is quite an important point

:03:35. > :03:42.of difference between the various representations that have been made

:03:42. > :03:49.for some for reductions in taxation which should be funded by changes

:03:49. > :03:54.and reduction in public spending. And Ed Balls, who is saying let us

:03:54. > :03:58.reduce taxation, but actually we will fund it by borrowing. It is a

:03:58. > :04:02.fundamental difference and fundamentally wrong. Why is it

:04:03. > :04:08.wrong? It would put at risk, confidence in our economy, and at

:04:08. > :04:12.risk, confidence in interest rates which is important for businesses

:04:12. > :04:18.and households with mortgages and for the prospects of returning to

:04:18. > :04:22.sustainable growth. Caroline Flint, what do you say to that?

:04:22. > :04:28.Government is borrowing �158 billion more based on their

:04:28. > :04:33.planned... Over a five-year period. It is part of their plans to cut

:04:33. > :04:37.public spending. Yes, there would be cuts in public spending but you

:04:37. > :04:42.have to stimulate growth and jobs as well on that is why we suggested

:04:42. > :04:47.a temporary VAT reductions. It would cost 12 billion but the

:04:47. > :04:50.dividends would out way that with getting people spending again. But

:04:50. > :04:55.presently people are worrying about spending and it is having an

:04:55. > :04:59.adverse effect on the economy. A temporary VAT cuts would create the

:04:59. > :05:03.opportunity for families to spend more. We think it is the right

:05:03. > :05:09.thing to do. You will never agree and these are well established a

:05:09. > :05:12.opposing positions. But Liam Fox also said it is intellectually

:05:12. > :05:18.unsustainable to believe workplace rights should remain untouchable.

:05:18. > :05:22.Do you agree? We are taking measures to make it easier for

:05:22. > :05:28.businesses to hire people and some of the changes we are making to

:05:28. > :05:32.employment tribunals are about that. So you do agree? The flexibility is

:05:32. > :05:38.important and we are taking steps to enhance that. The do you agree?

:05:38. > :05:46.I think I have just agreed. wanted you to say the words.

:05:46. > :05:50.agreed. We are getting somewhere. Should the Chancellor perform a U-

:05:50. > :05:55.turn and child benefit for higher rate tax players -- taxpayers. He

:05:55. > :05:58.might be defeated in the Commons if he doesn't. This is about the

:05:58. > :06:04.Budget and what the Chancellor is going to say next month. It is

:06:04. > :06:08.never a good idea for his colleagues to predict what he is

:06:08. > :06:13.going to say. There is this idea you start paying benefit right of

:06:13. > :06:17.the income scale even to people who don't require it. I think in all of

:06:17. > :06:23.the changes we have been making, we have been focused on the lowest

:06:23. > :06:29.paid. It is one of the important reasons we are making progress from

:06:29. > :06:33.paying tax at all. Just for clarity, in this case, you don't agree he

:06:33. > :06:38.should do a U-turn? I certainly don't agree that he should do a U-

:06:38. > :06:43.turn, but these are matters for the Chancellor next month. Can I say

:06:43. > :06:48.something about this idea to create jobs, you make it easier to sack

:06:48. > :06:51.people which seems to be the Liam Fox argument. When I talk to

:06:51. > :06:56.businesses in my constituency, the small businesses are worried that

:06:56. > :06:58.even if they have more export opportunities, they are afraid to

:06:58. > :07:03.expand because they don't get support from the banks and

:07:03. > :07:06.elsewhere. The answer isn't growing our economy by making it easier to

:07:06. > :07:12.sack people, we need to get lending going again, so small businesses

:07:12. > :07:15.feel confident about taking people on. It is a disgrace there are

:07:15. > :07:21.firms in our country who could expand but cannot do so because of

:07:21. > :07:24.the mess this Government has got us into now. We will be speaking

:07:24. > :07:28.exclusively to Liam Fox in the Sunday politics this weekend.

:07:28. > :07:31.Now to the story that keeps on running - the Government's plans to

:07:31. > :07:33.reform the NHS. This afternoon the Labour Party are staging a debate

:07:33. > :07:36.in the House of Commons, calling on ministers to publish something

:07:36. > :07:39.called the 'risk register' - a detailed analysis of what could

:07:39. > :07:42.potentially go wrong with the proposed changes in the health

:07:42. > :07:46.service. So far the Government has refused to publish the information.

:07:46. > :07:53.We can talk now to a Lib Dem MP who wants the register to be published,

:07:53. > :07:59.Andrew George. Why is it so important to get the

:07:59. > :08:03.register published? Is it best to go into this debate in the dark, or

:08:03. > :08:07.have the best information available. The fact is, it is better to have

:08:07. > :08:12.as much information as possible from Government, if you are going

:08:12. > :08:16.to particularly give the green light to what is going to beat the

:08:17. > :08:20.biggest reorganisation of the health service in its 63 years.

:08:20. > :08:24.People will say it is just another excuse to block the Bill, as they

:08:24. > :08:30.are going through legislation, it is not wise to publish all of the

:08:30. > :08:36.information, there has to be some confidentiality? The debate around

:08:36. > :08:40.the risk register is it you like, a bit of a sideshow. The main issue

:08:40. > :08:45.is the legitimacy of the Bill itself and the impact it is likely

:08:45. > :08:50.to have on the NHS and that is worth the core of the debate is.

:08:51. > :08:55.The debate about the risk register and its publication, which the

:08:55. > :09:03.information tribunal clearly has instructed the Department of Health

:09:04. > :09:08.to publish, is a sideshow, but it is the information and it would be

:09:08. > :09:13.helpful in informing the debate. you think you'll get any more

:09:13. > :09:18.concessions on the NHS bill? have to continue to work as best as

:09:18. > :09:24.we can to achieve concessions. The latest we are pushing for as limo

:09:24. > :09:28.Democrats, is too constrained democratisation of the NHS through

:09:28. > :09:32.proposed amendments in the House of Lords and it is something I am sure

:09:32. > :09:37.will be welcome if we can achieve it. My position is, although we

:09:37. > :09:43.have made the bill less bad, I'm not persuaded the Bill should go

:09:43. > :09:48.through. OK, Andrew George, thanks very much. Nick Herbert, you must

:09:48. > :09:52.be fed up with your Lib Dem coalition colleagues? They have

:09:52. > :09:56.disrupted this Bill all the way through, caused a pause in the

:09:56. > :10:00.legislation, numerous concessions and they still want more. Nick

:10:00. > :10:04.Clegg is reportedly trying to get more concessions so there isn't a

:10:04. > :10:09.revolt at his party's spring conference. What do you say to

:10:09. > :10:13.them? I am not fed up with them and there has been a process of debate

:10:13. > :10:18.about the health reforms. They are important in terms of the transfer

:10:18. > :10:22.of responsibility from the bureaucracy of Primary Care Trust,

:10:22. > :10:25.and putting that responsibility effectively in the hands of GPs

:10:25. > :10:30.through the commissioning groups, giving patients therefore, more

:10:30. > :10:35.control, more choice. Saving money through the reduction in

:10:35. > :10:41.bureaucracy, �4.5 million will be saved. The direction of travel of

:10:41. > :10:45.these reforms are right. The point is, why at this stage are your

:10:45. > :10:49.coalition colleagues still trying to change the Bill yet again? Is

:10:49. > :10:54.that what Nick Clegg should be doing? Is it what you would expect

:10:54. > :10:58.him to be doing? The Government is committed in seen these reforms

:10:58. > :11:02.through. There is a process of Parliamentary debate. There is a

:11:02. > :11:08.debate outside, the Prime Minister met some of the principal players

:11:08. > :11:12.last week. It is perfectly OK to have a discussion about this and

:11:12. > :11:16.people propose amendments. What is important is we maintain the

:11:16. > :11:20.direction of these reforms. It is important the NHS does change,

:11:20. > :11:24.because we needed to adapt to the modern challenges and rising costs

:11:24. > :11:28.of care. It is important we move away from the bureaucratic system

:11:28. > :11:35.we have had in the past and give it the opportunity to save money and

:11:35. > :11:42.give patients more control. But she judges publish the at-risk register,

:11:42. > :11:48.-- Risk Register? No Government has published a risk register. The

:11:48. > :11:51.previous Government didn't. Andy Burnham himself refused a Freedom

:11:51. > :11:55.of Information Act request to publish the risk register when he

:11:55. > :12:01.was Health Secretary. Now he is calling for it, which is

:12:01. > :12:05.hypocritical. Blatant opportunism? We are talking about a transition

:12:05. > :12:09.risk register which is only to do with this massive reorganisation of

:12:09. > :12:15.the NHS, which this coalition Government has decided to embark on.

:12:15. > :12:20.When Andy Burnham was in Government, the issue was the department will

:12:20. > :12:25.register. But this is different. isn't. It is, that is why the

:12:25. > :12:28.information commissioner allowed it. When Andy was in Government, the

:12:28. > :12:33.Information Commissioner did not insist. It is a risk register about

:12:33. > :12:36.the reorganisation of the NHS. The information commissioner has seen

:12:36. > :12:40.it and has said there is information that is pertinent to

:12:41. > :12:45.the debate about the changes to the NHS. That is why we have is motion

:12:45. > :12:51.today and white the Liberal Democrats can go with this today.

:12:51. > :12:56.And why not just publish it? It is naked political opportunism. You're

:12:56. > :13:00.not going to get civil servants to give advice of these risk registers

:13:00. > :13:05.which requires them to set out things like worst case scenarios if

:13:05. > :13:11.what they think is going to happen is, it is going to be published and

:13:11. > :13:19.used for partisan political advantage. Governments have not

:13:19. > :13:25.published these in the past. This is about a bill, an act that will

:13:25. > :13:28.be made by you if you had your way. The public have never heard of a

:13:28. > :13:35.risk register before. This is a sideshow about what the debate is

:13:35. > :13:41.about, which is the importance of these reforms to secure the NHS for

:13:41. > :13:45.the future. Naked political opportunism! We

:13:45. > :13:53.have never heard that on this programme.

:13:53. > :13:57.Is the Government's work experience scheme in trouble? It was hailed as

:13:57. > :13:59.a way to help some of our one million unemployed 16 to 24 year

:13:59. > :14:02.olds get jobs, providing work experience whilst participants

:14:02. > :14:04.claim Jobseeker's Allowance. But it's not quite gone to plan.

:14:04. > :14:07.Critics have accused companies involved of using slave labour and

:14:07. > :14:11.now some of those big stores have also expressed concerns. So what

:14:11. > :14:14.was the big idea, Jo? It must all have seemed so simple

:14:14. > :14:17.when the Department for Work and Pensions came up with the scheme.

:14:17. > :14:20.So how does it work? Under the Work Experience programme, young people

:14:20. > :14:23.on benefits are offered placements of up to two months while still

:14:23. > :14:26.receiving Jobseeker's Allowance plus expenses. The Government says

:14:26. > :14:29.it's a voluntary scheme and participants can pull out in the

:14:29. > :14:33.first week without sanctions. But pulling out any later could mean

:14:33. > :14:38.they lose their benefits. Firms who have signed up include Boots,

:14:38. > :14:42.McDonald's and Primark. Over 34,000 people have taken up the scheme and

:14:42. > :14:44.50% of those have stopped claiming benefits. Work and Pensions

:14:44. > :14:50.Secretary, Iain Duncan Smith, says the scheme gives participants

:14:50. > :14:55.experience, a line for their CV and a stint in business. But not

:14:55. > :14:58.everyone agrees. Critics say people aren't able to do work experience

:14:58. > :15:04.in their chosen field and that big companies are profiting from free

:15:04. > :15:07.labour. Or "slave labour". They say that the scheme isn't voluntary as

:15:07. > :15:11.those who pull out lose their benefits. So is the scheme in

:15:11. > :15:14.danger of failing apart? Tesco, one of the firms who backed the scheme

:15:14. > :15:20.has announced it'll offer paid placements with a guarantee of a

:15:20. > :15:22.job to all those people it takes on - if they do well. And Argos and

:15:22. > :15:26.Superdrug say they're suspending their involvement pending talks

:15:26. > :15:36.with the DWP to ensure the scheme is voluntary and benefits won't be

:15:36. > :15:39.

:15:39. > :15:44.removed from those who leave the scheme. But Hhecalls the scheme's

:15:44. > :15:51.critics "modern-day Luddites" and And we are joined by Anne Marie

:15:51. > :15:56.O'Reilly, from the campaign group Boycott Workfare. We can see the

:15:56. > :16:00.absurdity in a multi-millionaire minister calling people jobs snobs.

:16:00. > :16:08.By at you do not normally get paid work experience but in this case

:16:09. > :16:14.they will get jobseeker's allowance of --. They have to work on threat

:16:14. > :16:18.of sanctions. That is after they signed up. We have been contacted

:16:18. > :16:23.by people this week who having seen it in the headlines, have found out

:16:23. > :16:27.for the first time it is voluntary because that is not how it is being

:16:27. > :16:33.portrayed. Once they signed up to it, they can step away very early

:16:33. > :16:37.without sanctions but if they stay on it for a while, there is as

:16:37. > :16:43.sanction. Most people will think, better to be getting some work

:16:43. > :16:49.experience, getting up in the morning, mixing with colleagues,

:16:49. > :16:55.and sitting at home doing nothing. The opting for one week is true of

:16:55. > :17:03.only one of the government's five schemes. Other people put people to

:17:03. > :17:13.work on threat of sanction it... How are you going to get a job if

:17:13. > :17:14.

:17:14. > :17:19.These schemes are designed to hold another subsidy to big business.

:17:19. > :17:23.ASDA, McDonald's and Tesco can afford to pay wages and they are

:17:23. > :17:28.not. The government is basically introducing an eight-week, unpaid

:17:28. > :17:34.interviewed for jobs? 1100 people worked for Tesco on the schemes and

:17:34. > :17:39.did not get a job from it, which is hundreds of thousands of hours.

:17:39. > :17:43.That is unpaid work. The taxpayer is paying them. Maybe we have a

:17:43. > :17:49.right to expect them to do something for that money. What is

:17:49. > :17:53.wrong with that principle? Young people earning �53 a week on

:17:53. > :17:58.jobseeker's allowance, that is �200 a month. The idea that they should

:17:58. > :18:03.be working 30 hour weeks in order to have the bare minimum to survive

:18:03. > :18:07.is absurd and people can see that. That is why Iain Duncan-Smith is

:18:07. > :18:10.coming out with mad accusations because the public at large can see

:18:10. > :18:19.this is a threat to wall of us, because it is replacing paid work

:18:19. > :18:24.and driving down wages -- threat to all of us. But you on the

:18:24. > :18:29.jobseeker's Allowance, �53.45 for a young person a week, that works out

:18:29. > :18:34.at �1.50 an hour. That is not what I would regard as much experience.

:18:34. > :18:38.That is doing things for nothing. These people would be on this

:18:38. > :18:43.benefit anyway. The question is, should they be allowed to

:18:43. > :18:46.voluntarily joined a scheme that gives them experience? 34,000 have

:18:46. > :18:51.been through this scheme and over half of them have gone into work so

:18:51. > :18:55.it has benefited them and surely that is a good thing. What on earth

:18:55. > :19:00.is wrong with that? In terms of these people who said they have

:19:00. > :19:04.received sanctions, 200 people have received sanctions. You have the

:19:04. > :19:09.option of dropping out after the first week if you do not like it.

:19:09. > :19:15.This has been a good experience for people who would otherwise be on

:19:15. > :19:19.benefits. It is not a form of slave labour, you are confusing it with

:19:19. > :19:25.other schemes... Why are big companies like Tesco and Argos up

:19:25. > :19:29.in arms? Chris Grayling, the minister in charge, said that you

:19:29. > :19:33.were running a disgraceful campaign and when Tesco said, we are not too

:19:33. > :19:38.happy about this, he said it was a U-turn and that it was a better

:19:38. > :19:43.offer for young people. Which bit is the right? The Tesco offer is a

:19:43. > :19:48.good offer! It is a good thing, if not a bad thing! You do not think

:19:48. > :19:52.it is a disgraceful campaign? a misleading campaign. It has

:19:52. > :19:55.benefited a lot of young people with experience while they are

:19:55. > :19:59.claiming benefits and I disagree that the public will be worried

:19:59. > :20:07.about this. The public will see it is voluntary, it is commonsense,

:20:07. > :20:10.and it gives something... Can I correct you? Briefly. It is

:20:11. > :20:15.disabled people and people with terminal cancer that this

:20:16. > :20:21.government wants to make work for free. That is not happening for

:20:21. > :20:26.Tesco. It's is voluntary. Do you have examples of Tesco employees

:20:26. > :20:30.people with terminal cancer under this scheme? The government is

:20:30. > :20:35.trying to keep these figures very much under wraps. You made an

:20:35. > :20:41.accusation. Oh I have not made an accusation at Tesco but it is

:20:41. > :20:45.government policy. You can look a DWP policy... You must approve of

:20:45. > :20:50.what the government is doing because it is a continuation of

:20:50. > :20:54.Labour policies. James Purnell said in 2008 that Reggie everyone on

:20:54. > :20:58.benefits should be forced to do something in return -- that

:20:58. > :21:03.everyone on benefits. When I was Employment Minister we had the

:21:03. > :21:07.scheme to get people ready for work through the JobCentre, so they

:21:07. > :21:11.could apply for apprenticeships and training programmes, but the key

:21:11. > :21:15.issue is about how much these schemes will lead to a job and what

:21:15. > :21:19.you can't have, and maybe this is one of the worries of Argos and

:21:19. > :21:22.Tesco and Primark, is this perceived as a conveyor belt of

:21:22. > :21:26.people coming through on eight weeks cycles replacing people who

:21:26. > :21:31.might be in full-time and part-time work and you have to be on the ball

:21:31. > :21:36.about that. Let me put that to the minister. Of those who have been on

:21:36. > :21:41.it, over half have gone into work so there is evidence it is

:21:41. > :21:46.successful in giving people... into permanent jobs? Into jobs or

:21:46. > :21:51.coming off benefits. What is a permanent job these days? There are

:21:51. > :21:56.no figures on the government about what proportion have gone into work.

:21:56. > :22:01.Labour, to its shame, introduce these schemes. The difference is

:22:01. > :22:04.the coalition is rolling it out on a massive scale. Nearly 400,000

:22:04. > :22:08.people had been referred to the work programme in the last year and

:22:08. > :22:12.the government has yet to tell us how many have been forced into

:22:12. > :22:16.similar unpaid work positions. It can be for up to six months which

:22:16. > :22:22.is disgusting. You do need to give people out of work the opportunity

:22:22. > :22:26.for work placements. The question is, what support is given to these

:22:26. > :22:30.people on the outset and what journey will they be on? That is

:22:30. > :22:34.why the Future Jobs Fund was very much geared to looking at companies,

:22:34. > :22:38.both in the public and private sector, who could look at their

:22:38. > :22:42.work force and say, we will work with the JobCentre and see if we

:22:42. > :22:48.can get some of your people into jobs. We cannot have a conveyor

:22:48. > :22:53.belt... EU have made that point. The Tory MP said last night that

:22:53. > :23:01.your campaign is a lot of people waving a copy of the Socialist

:23:01. > :23:05.Worker? Absurd! Are you a member of that party? Absolutely not. Boycott

:23:05. > :23:10.Workfare was formed by people who have experience of these schemes

:23:10. > :23:15.and is driven by the public who are outraged that the high street and

:23:15. > :23:21.big companies are being propped up by people... It is not forced.

:23:21. > :23:26.does it have a sanction attached to its then? We have to move on. Thank

:23:26. > :23:31.you for being with us. There is an idea that David Cameron is trying

:23:31. > :23:37.to freeze the minimum wage next month. There is all sorts of talk!

:23:37. > :23:40.We have been discussing it for half-an-hour. Stop doing this!

:23:40. > :23:45.come onto his programme for me to tell you what the government is

:23:45. > :23:48.doing? Let's wait and see what the Chancellor does next month! I know

:23:48. > :23:50.when I am not getting anywhere! Now yesterday Communities Secretary

:23:50. > :23:53.Eric Pickles launched the Government's new community

:23:53. > :24:03.integration strategy, a plan to help us all get along with each

:24:03. > :24:03.

:24:03. > :24:06.other a little bit better. Lovely! It is never going to work! One of

:24:06. > :24:09.his proposals is the concept of a Big Lunch, where neighbours sit

:24:09. > :24:13.down together to eat a big lunch. Who would ever have thought that

:24:13. > :24:20.Eric Pickles would come up with the idea of a big lunch? It would not

:24:20. > :24:25.be a small lunch! If the "big society" has disappeared without

:24:25. > :24:28.trace, why not have a big lunch? And what better way to get a big

:24:28. > :24:32.lunch off to a good start than making sure you've all got the best

:24:32. > :24:37.crockery on show. Something like a Daily Politics mug perhaps. You

:24:37. > :24:41.wondered where we were going with that! So did I because I had not

:24:41. > :24:44.seen the script before! But to get your hands on one you will have to

:24:44. > :24:54.win our Guest the Year competition. Can you remember when this

:24:54. > :25:19.

:25:19. > :25:29.A fair local tax is one which does not fall too heavily on any, single

:25:29. > :25:44.

:25:44. > :25:54.# It's no secret #. Lift-off of Colombia on its first

:25:54. > :26:02.

:26:02. > :26:07.# Looking to your heart, you will find #.

:26:07. > :26:16.We as hostages will give our utmost support to see in this problem

:26:16. > :26:26.finished. # Don't tell me it is not worth

:26:26. > :26:27.

:26:27. > :26:31.# At everything I do, they do it for you #.

:26:31. > :26:36.To be in with a chance of winning a Daily Politics mug, send your

:26:36. > :26:43.answer to our special quiz email address. And you can see the full

:26:43. > :26:50.terms and conditions for Guess The Year on our website.

:26:50. > :26:55.What it is coming up to midday, so we can look at Big Ben behind me.

:26:55. > :27:02.There she is, he is, or whatever. Prime Minister's Questions is on

:27:02. > :27:05.the way. Nick Robinson is with me. An unusual start to PMQs. We have

:27:05. > :27:10.grown used to starts in which tributes are paid to soldiers who

:27:10. > :27:15.have died in Iraq, then in Afghanistan. I am told that he will

:27:15. > :27:19.pay tribute to a Marines, the veteran, brilliant foreign

:27:19. > :27:25.correspondent of the Sunday Times, somebody I know you knew and I

:27:25. > :27:29.think you even hired, who died today in Syria, who so I think it

:27:29. > :27:34.will be a moment in which the House is reminded of the horror of what

:27:34. > :27:43.is happening in Syria, the risks that some extraordinary brave

:27:44. > :27:48.colleagues of hours take to bring that used to the world. -- ours.

:27:48. > :27:51.She was American by background but became very British, one of the

:27:51. > :27:56.foremost correspondents. I think she was the foremost foreign

:27:56. > :28:00.correspondent of her generation. Wherever there was trouble in the

:28:00. > :28:04.world, you could be pretty sure that she was there and she

:28:04. > :28:10.reported... She was always in the thick of it and her reporting was

:28:10. > :28:13.superb, completely honest, no agenda at all, and full of

:28:13. > :28:19.compassion. It is interesting that she was doing that right down to

:28:19. > :28:23.the last minute and broadcasters... She often got to places that we

:28:23. > :28:29.couldn't get too! People listening to Radio 4 this morning we have

:28:29. > :28:33.heard her voice. I think it was recorded yesterday. There was an

:28:33. > :28:38.added poignancy that hours later we learned she had died in an

:28:38. > :28:42.explosion. Very symbolic as the eye patch that she had to wear over ten

:28:42. > :28:49.years because she lost that when a grenade hit her in Sri Lanka, which

:28:49. > :28:56.was just a sign... Sri Lanka, the Maghreb, Chechnya, she was there.

:28:56. > :29:02.It is very sad, I was very sad when I heard that news today. What else

:29:02. > :29:05.will happen? I will be amazed if Ed Miliband does not go on health.

:29:05. > :29:11.Week after week he has made the Prime Minister looks pretty

:29:11. > :29:16.uncomfortable on the subject. A week ago, before half-term, he was

:29:16. > :29:20.able to get away at some of the tensions within the Tory party. I

:29:20. > :29:25.would be surprised if he did not try to do the same for the Liberal

:29:25. > :29:29.Democrats. What we also know it is the Liberal Democrats are having a

:29:29. > :29:32.spring conference. They do this old fashioned thing called democracy in

:29:32. > :29:36.the Liberal Democrats and that means the leadership cannot control

:29:36. > :29:40.what is debated and there is already an emergency motion tabled,

:29:41. > :29:45.it may not get chosen, calling for the Health and Social Care Bill to

:29:45. > :29:50.get scrapped. It is the same man pushing it to push it a year ago.

:29:50. > :29:55.One of the things that contributed to the pause. There is a petition

:29:55. > :30:00.among at Lib Dems to scrap the Bill and there is certainly a sense that

:30:00. > :30:03.even senior Liberal Democrats might want to water down part of the

:30:03. > :30:08.competition clauses. I heard something very interesting

:30:08. > :30:12.yesterday, Andrews. Nick Clegg is now telling his allies that they

:30:12. > :30:17.are losing more activists over this issue of health than they did over

:30:17. > :30:20.the increase in tuition fees. That is how serious the Health and

:30:20. > :30:23.Social Care Bill is a Liberal Democrats because for them, many of

:30:23. > :30:26.whom either work in the health service and have friends in the

:30:26. > :30:29.health service, they have got an instinctive distrust of the

:30:29. > :30:34.Conservatives on this issue and they don't quite get one of their

:30:35. > :30:41.party is going along with it. instinctive rather than detailed. I

:30:41. > :30:46.suspect even Lib Dem activists for don't really know what is in it.

:30:46. > :30:51.absolutely. Vast numbers of people say they don't know what is in it,

:30:51. > :30:57.around 80%. Go around the House of Commons and asked... It is about

:30:57. > :31:02.trust. In the end, the nervousness on the Labour side, privatisation

:31:02. > :31:12.and competition. I occasionally TVs Labour former ministers and say,

:31:12. > :31:15.

:31:15. > :31:23.you brought in private companies -- I occasionally TVs. -- tease.

:31:23. > :31:29.Straight to the House of Commons I am sure the whole House will wish

:31:29. > :31:33.to join me in sending our deepest condolences to the families and

:31:33. > :31:39.friends of senior aircraft man, Ryan Tomlin. It is clear from the

:31:39. > :31:43.tributes paid to him, he was a determined young man with potential.

:31:43. > :31:49.His service and sacrifice to this nation will never be forgotten.

:31:49. > :31:52.Members of the House will have seen the talented and respected foreign

:31:52. > :31:57.correspondents of the Sunday Times, Marie Colvin, has been killed in

:31:57. > :32:02.the bombing in Syria. It is a desperately sad reminder of the

:32:02. > :32:05.risks journalists take to inform the world on what is happening and

:32:05. > :32:09.off thoughts are with her family and friends. I have had meetings

:32:09. > :32:14.with ministerial colleagues and others, and I will have further

:32:14. > :32:20.such meetings later today. Can I associate myself but the

:32:20. > :32:23.Prime Minister's Commons with -- about our brave troops and the

:32:23. > :32:27.brave journalists to report their activities as well. The Prime

:32:27. > :32:31.Minister has said one of his main priorities is fighting crime. Then

:32:31. > :32:35.why since the election there has been a cut in over 4,000 in the

:32:35. > :32:39.number of frontline police officers? In South Yorkshire, the

:32:39. > :32:43.police helicopter which was responsible for apprehending over

:32:43. > :32:46.700 criminals last year, will be scrapped by the police minister

:32:46. > :32:52.against the advice of the Chief Constable? How can he explain these

:32:52. > :32:58.matters, which indicate to the public that crime will rise when it

:32:58. > :33:04.is simply another broken promise... The Prime Minister. I on the issue

:33:04. > :33:08.of the helicopter, there are talks under way between the South

:33:08. > :33:12.Yorkshire Police and ACPO. I'm sure coverage will be maintained. I

:33:12. > :33:17.would make the point recorded crime is down under this Government. And

:33:17. > :33:20.also, if you look at the figures from her Majesty's Inspectorate of

:33:20. > :33:25.the constabulary, they believe there will be more invisible

:33:25. > :33:30.policing roles this march of than there were a year ago.

:33:30. > :33:33.This Monday was meant to be a happy reunions for pupils at Alvechurch

:33:33. > :33:37.middle school following their half- term break. But it turned out to be

:33:37. > :33:40.a day of mourning for the school and the community because of the

:33:41. > :33:45.news of a coach crash in France. He claimed the life of a much-loved

:33:45. > :33:49.local teacher, Mr Peter Rippington and left many schoolchildren

:33:49. > :33:53.seriously injured. Will the Prime Minister join me in expressing

:33:53. > :33:59.sympathy for those affected and for those who are still in France being

:33:59. > :34:04.treated, a swift recovery and speedy return home? I am grateful

:34:04. > :34:08.to him for raising this desperately, desperately sad case. I know Peter

:34:08. > :34:12.Rippington was much respected in the local community and that the

:34:12. > :34:18.school and will be missed. Thoughts and sincere condolences I am sure

:34:18. > :34:21.from everyone in the House will be with his constituents. I can tell

:34:21. > :34:26.him our consular staff in France continued to provide support to

:34:26. > :34:28.those in France. The ambassador has visited passengers in hospital and

:34:28. > :34:31.is liaising with the local authorities and we will do

:34:31. > :34:38.everything we can with the French authorities to get people safely

:34:38. > :34:42.home. Mr Ed Miliband. Can I join the Prime Minister in

:34:42. > :34:47.paying tribute to senior aircraft and an Ryan Thomson from the RAF

:34:47. > :34:50.Regiment, who died bravely and courageously serving our country

:34:50. > :34:55.and our thoughts are with his family and friends. We are also

:34:55. > :34:58.thinking today about the tragic death of Marie Colvin. She was a

:34:58. > :35:02.brave and tireless reporter across many continents and in many

:35:02. > :35:07.difficult situations. She was an inspiration to women in her

:35:07. > :35:10.profession. Her reports in the hours before her death showed her

:35:10. > :35:15.works at her finest. Our thoughts today are with her family and

:35:15. > :35:25.friends. Mr Speaker, on Monday the Prime Minister held his emergency

:35:25. > :35:28.

:35:28. > :35:32.NHS summit. He managed to execute - - exclude the main organisations if

:35:32. > :35:37.other following professions, the GPS, the midwives, the

:35:37. > :35:42.psychiatrists, the physiotherapists and the radiologist's. How can he

:35:42. > :35:50.think it is a good idea to hold a held summit which excludes the vast

:35:50. > :35:56.majority of people who work in the NHS? What I want to do a safeguard

:35:56. > :36:03.the NHS. We on this side of the house, we are putting more money

:36:03. > :36:09.into the NHS. Money they are specifically, explicitly committed

:36:09. > :36:13.to taking out. Money alone is not going to be enough. We have got to

:36:13. > :36:18.meet the challenge of an ageing population, more expensive

:36:18. > :36:23.treatments, more people on long- term conditions and that is why we

:36:23. > :36:26.have to reform the NHS. My summit was about those organisations

:36:26. > :36:32.including clinical commissioning groups up and down the country,

:36:32. > :36:38.8,200 GP practices that want to put these reforms in place. A Ed

:36:38. > :36:42.Miliband. So he has no answer to his ridiculous sum at which

:36:42. > :36:46.excluded the bass majority of people who were in the medical

:36:46. > :36:51.profession? Let's remind ourselves what the Prime Minister said just a

:36:51. > :36:55.few short months ago during his so called listening exercise. He said

:36:55. > :37:02.change, if it is to work should have the support of people who work

:37:02. > :37:06.in the NHS. We have to take on nurses and doctors with us. Now he

:37:06. > :37:12.can't even be in the same a room as the doctors and nurses! Doesn't

:37:12. > :37:17.that tell him that he has lost the confidence of those who work in our

:37:17. > :37:23.National Health Service? What I want to know is, when is he going

:37:23. > :37:28.to ask a question about the substance of the reforms? He

:37:28. > :37:32.doesn't want to ask about choice because they used to be in favour

:37:32. > :37:36.of choice. But there won't back choice in the bill for stampede

:37:36. > :37:42.does not want to ask a question about competition because they used

:37:42. > :37:47.to favour competition. They used to support GPs are put in charge of

:37:47. > :37:52.health budgets. They won't support it, even though now it is in the

:37:53. > :37:59.bill. Why not ask a serious question? Why not incidentally, as

:37:59. > :38:09.we are being kept here to vote at 7pm on the publication of the risk

:38:09. > :38:10.

:38:10. > :38:17.registers, why don't it you ask a question about that? Mr Ed Miliband.

:38:17. > :38:21.If he does not think it is a serious question about the

:38:21. > :38:31.exclusion of the vast majority of people the work in the NHS, he

:38:31. > :38:33.

:38:33. > :38:38.shouldn't worried... Order. The house must calm down. Tranquil and

:38:38. > :38:42.statesmanlike is the mode for which a members should stride. Mr Ed

:38:42. > :38:48.Miliband. We will come to the substance of this Bill. But let me

:38:48. > :38:53.ask me -- in his question, there were people who attended the summit

:38:53. > :38:59.and expressed the concerns about his bill, even those who were

:38:59. > :39:06.invited to his summit. So can he tell us what changes, if any, he is

:39:06. > :39:10.planning to make to his bill? doesn't he stop worrying about a my

:39:10. > :39:14.diary and start worrying about his complete lack of substance? We are

:39:14. > :39:18.going ahead with these reforms because we think it is good for

:39:19. > :39:22.patients to have choice. We think it is good to have the involvement

:39:22. > :39:26.of independence and voluntary sectors in the NHS. We think it is

:39:26. > :39:32.good to have more emphasis on public health. That is why we are

:39:32. > :39:35.doing these reforms. Let me remind him of one thing he used to believe.

:39:35. > :39:38.He used to believe this, and this is what his health secretary said -

:39:38. > :39:43.the private sector puts its capacity into the NHS for the

:39:43. > :39:48.benefit of NHS patients, which I think most people in this country

:39:48. > :39:52.will celebrate. They are committed to a 5% cap on the private sector,

:39:52. > :39:58.which would need hospitals like the Marsden Hospital, sacking doctors,

:39:58. > :40:02.sacking nurses and closing wards. Let me ask him again, we are here

:40:02. > :40:08.at 7pm to vote on the risk register, are you going to ask a question

:40:08. > :40:11.about it, or are you frightened of your own motion? It would be good

:40:12. > :40:14.if we can preserve some Parliamentary manners. The Prime

:40:14. > :40:20.Minister will know I am not frightened of anything. Mr Ed

:40:20. > :40:26.Miliband. Mr Speaker, nobody lead - - believes him and nobody trusts

:40:26. > :40:31.him on the NHS. I met with senior staff working with HIV services to

:40:31. > :40:35.explain to me how this Bill will fragment and disrupt services. The

:40:35. > :40:45.Health Secretary should be quiet and listen to the people who work

:40:45. > :40:47.

:40:47. > :40:52.in the health service! If he had done some listening before... He

:40:52. > :40:57.should calm down, Mr Speaker. They explain HIV treatments is

:40:57. > :41:02.commissioned by one organisation, the Primary Care Trust. Under his

:41:02. > :41:05.plans, it will be commissioned by three organisations, the national

:41:05. > :41:10.commissioning Board, the clinical commissioning Group and the Health

:41:10. > :41:14.and well-being board. They certainly it will damage the world

:41:14. > :41:19.class service they provide for patients. Why won't he listened to

:41:19. > :41:23.the people who actually know what they are talking about in the NHS?

:41:23. > :41:29.If the Right Honourable Gentleman is opposing other organisations

:41:29. > :41:31.that have expertise in Aids and treatment taking part in the NHS he

:41:31. > :41:38.will be opposing the Terrence Higgins Trust, who do an enormous

:41:38. > :41:42.amount to support her HIV. The fact is, what we can see is complete

:41:42. > :41:48.opportunism from the party opposite. They used to back choice, backed

:41:48. > :41:56.the independent sector, back reform. I say, you don't save the NHS by

:41:56. > :42:02.opposing reform, you save it by delivering reform. Ed Miliband.

:42:02. > :42:05.does not understand his own bill. Mr Speaker, let me just explain to

:42:05. > :42:15.him the question was about the fragmentation of commissioning and

:42:15. > :42:19.

:42:19. > :42:22.what the experts... Order. Opposition Members are becoming

:42:22. > :42:31.over-excited. And there is a long time to go and I want to get to the

:42:31. > :42:35.bottom of the Order Paper. Let me address the Health Secretary, I

:42:35. > :42:39.don't think the Prime Minister wants advice from him. Let me

:42:39. > :42:44.explain, it is about the fragmentation of commissioning. You

:42:45. > :42:54.have got it, I am glad. Maybe then when you get up Buchan answer the

:42:55. > :43:08.

:43:08. > :43:16.question?! Border! Keep me out of The reason he has lost... Order!

:43:16. > :43:22.Order! I say that to the Shadow Chancellor as well. Members might

:43:22. > :43:28.be enjoying themselves, I ask them to think what the country thinks.

:43:28. > :43:32.Order! Of what the country things on and we conduct ourselves. He has

:43:32. > :43:35.lost the confidence and the NHS because of the promises he made

:43:35. > :43:41.before the election. Will he give a straight answer to the question I

:43:41. > :43:46.asked two weeks ago, and admits he has broken his promise of no top-

:43:46. > :43:53.down reorganisation? Any longer, I think we would have to put him on a

:43:53. > :44:01.waiting list for care, it took so long. He asked about integration,

:44:01. > :44:06.he asks about... Let me explain to him, caused 22 and caused 25 at

:44:06. > :44:11.plays a specific duty on key organisations to integrate health

:44:12. > :44:15.and social care. The Bill is all about integration. Here we are,

:44:15. > :44:21.question five, and he still won't mention his vote on the risk

:44:21. > :44:25.registers. I think I know why. Because I have here Labour's brief

:44:25. > :44:30.for this afternoon's debate. There is an excellent section explaining

:44:30. > :44:35.why you don't publish risk registers. The second argument is

:44:35. > :44:38.particularly strong, it goes like this. Andy Burnham block the

:44:38. > :44:48.publication of the Department of Health Risk register in September

:44:48. > :44:51.2009. There we are, absolutely revealed as a bunch and rank

:44:51. > :44:58.opportunists, not fit to run opposition and not fit for

:44:58. > :45:02.Government. I will tell you what happens under the last Labour

:45:03. > :45:07.Government, the lowest waiting times in history. A more doctors

:45:07. > :45:15.and nurses than ever before. The high as patient satisfaction on the

:45:15. > :45:18.NHS. I will match our record on a NHS with him any day of the week.

:45:18. > :45:23.And the problem with this Prime Minister is he asked people to

:45:23. > :45:27.trust him and he has betrayed that trust. The problem with this Prime

:45:27. > :45:33.Minister is that on the NHS, he thinks he is right and everyone

:45:33. > :45:39.else is wrong. It has become, not a symbol on how his party has changed,

:45:39. > :45:48.but of his arrogance. I'd tell him this, this will become his poll tax.

:45:48. > :45:54.He should listen to the public and Six questions and not a mention of

:45:54. > :45:59.the motion may have put in front of the House tonight! To not back it

:45:59. > :46:04.up is an absence of leadership. Members of both sides of the House

:46:04. > :46:08.are yelling at each other. It is rude and it should stop. Let me

:46:08. > :46:14.tell him what is actually happening in the health service under this

:46:14. > :46:18.government. Waiting times for outpatients, down. Waiting times

:46:19. > :46:23.for in-patients, down. Number of people waiting in total, down.

:46:23. > :46:31.Number of people waiting for more than a year, half. Hospital

:46:31. > :46:35.infections, down. Mixed-sex wards down by 94%. 4,000 more doctors.

:46:35. > :46:39.1,000 more midwives and fewer managers. He talks about what

:46:39. > :46:44.people think about this government. Let me remind him of what his

:46:44. > :46:49.candidate said about him this week. You are not articulating a vision

:46:50. > :46:54.or destination, you are not clearly identifying a course and no one is

:46:54. > :47:03.following years. My problem is, you are not a leader. If I couldn't

:47:03. > :47:07.have put it better myself. Thank you, Mr Speaker. In 2009 when the

:47:07. > :47:12.Conservatives took control of Lancashire County Council,

:47:12. > :47:18.fostering services were rated as unsatisfactory. Since then, their

:47:18. > :47:23.budget has reduced by �120,000 and they are now rated as outstanding.

:47:23. > :47:25.Would my right honourable friend join me in congratulating the

:47:25. > :47:30.county councillor and his Conservative colleagues for not

:47:30. > :47:34.only do more for less but doing it better as well. I certainly join my

:47:34. > :47:38.honourable friend. Across the country you have different councils

:47:38. > :47:43.could be with the issues of fostering and adoption and

:47:43. > :47:46.producing very different results -- coping with the issues. I think we

:47:46. > :47:50.need to publish these figures for we can see which councils are

:47:50. > :47:54.getting value for money but above all, which families are really

:47:54. > :48:00.doing the best to get those children out of care and into a

:48:00. > :48:05.loving home. The national minimum wage has lifted millions of workers

:48:05. > :48:09.out of poverty pay so will the Prime Minister's support hard-

:48:09. > :48:14.working people and give a commitment today to drop and just

:48:14. > :48:22.plans to freeze it? We support the minimum wage and we have supported

:48:22. > :48:27.its up grading and it has an important role to play.

:48:27. > :48:31.children of Somalia should have an expectation of a life before death.

:48:31. > :48:37.Does not tomorrow's London conference at E opportunity to

:48:37. > :48:42.signal to the terrorists and corrupt that we are determined to

:48:42. > :48:51.do what we can to ensure stability and good governance in Somalia --

:48:51. > :48:55.provide the opportunity? Given Somaliland's experience of peace

:48:55. > :48:59.building in the region. We will be welcoming the President of

:48:59. > :49:03.Somaliland to the conference and Somaliland has taken an important

:49:03. > :49:07.step forward in showing that you can have better governance, better

:49:07. > :49:11.economic progress, and they are in many ways an example to follow but

:49:11. > :49:15.this conference is not about recognising Somaliland, it is about

:49:15. > :49:20.trying to put in place the building blocks in the international

:49:20. > :49:26.computer -- community and the Somalis themselves for a stronger

:49:26. > :49:30.Somalia, and that means taking action on piracy, hostages, and to

:49:30. > :49:35.increase funding in Mogadishu, and working with all parts of Somalia

:49:35. > :49:39.to try to give that country, which has been more blighted by famine,

:49:39. > :49:44.disease, terrorism and violence, and almost any other in the world,

:49:44. > :49:48.to give that country a second chance. Given what the Prime

:49:48. > :49:52.Minister said last week in Scotland, which he devote as much time to

:49:52. > :49:59.facing up to the grievances that the English feel from the current

:49:59. > :50:06.proposals of devolution as he will be giving new proposals to

:50:06. > :50:10.Scotland? When he opened a major debate on the English question so

:50:10. > :50:14.that members of all parts of the house can advise him on what

:50:14. > :50:18.measures of devolution English people need if we are too big

:50:18. > :50:23.equity with other parts of the UK - - will he opened a major debate?

:50:23. > :50:27.have set up a West Lothian group to look at this and we need to make

:50:27. > :50:30.sure that devolution works for everyone in the United Kingdom but

:50:30. > :50:34.I would part company slightly because I believe the United

:50:34. > :50:38.Kingdom has been an incredibly successful partnership between all

:50:38. > :50:43.its members and I think that far from wanting to appeal to English

:50:43. > :50:47.people, to nurture a grievance they feel, I want to appeal to my fellow

:50:47. > :50:51.Englishman to say, this has been a great partnership for Scotland and

:50:51. > :50:55.a great partnership for England. Scotland must make its choice but

:50:55. > :51:01.we hope Scotland will choose to remain in this partnership that has

:51:01. > :51:10.done so well for the last 300 years. Does the Prime Minister agree that

:51:10. > :51:14.an elected mayor with more power presents a great authority for

:51:14. > :51:20.local people, including those of us in Bristol that want more rail in

:51:20. > :51:24.the area? I do support having elected mayors in our great cities.

:51:24. > :51:28.It is for those cities to choose. I am encouraged by what has happened

:51:28. > :51:32.in Liverpool. We will be having a referendum and people in Bristol

:51:32. > :51:36.will be able to make that choice but at the same time, the

:51:36. > :51:39.government is going through a huge act and devolution to cities in

:51:39. > :51:44.terms of the powers and the money that we are prepared to offer them

:51:44. > :51:49.so that they can build their own future. If you think of how Bristol

:51:49. > :51:56.leaves Manchester, Liverpool, Birmingham, -- Bristol, Leeds,

:51:56. > :52:01.Manchester. They built themselves up not from instruction from London.

:52:01. > :52:04.On Tuesday, the Education Secretary said the Prime Minister's decision

:52:04. > :52:10.to set up the Leveson Inquiry is having a chilling effect on freedom

:52:10. > :52:16.of expression. Thus the Education Secretary speak for the government?

:52:16. > :52:20.-- does the? It was right to set up the Leveson Inquiry and that is

:52:20. > :52:24.very supported by the entire government but I do think that my

:52:24. > :52:28.right honourable friend is making an important point, which is even

:52:28. > :52:35.as this inquiry goes on, we want to have a vibrant press that feels it

:52:35. > :52:38.can call the powerful to account and we don't want it... Although

:52:38. > :52:45.sometimes one may feel some advantage to having it been chilled,

:52:45. > :52:50.but that is not what we want. constituents will be supporting the

:52:50. > :52:54.Chancellor's refusal yesterday to sign of the EU accounts. Does the

:52:54. > :52:59.Prime Minister agree with me that it is totally unacceptable that for

:52:59. > :53:04.17 years, they have failed to get orderlies to sign off on their

:53:04. > :53:07.accounts? It wasn't just Britain that took the stand, it was the

:53:07. > :53:11.Dutch and the Swedes as well. For too long these accounts have not

:53:11. > :53:17.been properly dealt with and corruption has not been properly

:53:17. > :53:21.dealt with and it is right to make this stand. Last week in Edinburgh,

:53:21. > :53:25.the Prime Minister said there were more powers on the table for

:53:25. > :53:30.Scotland but could not name any. A few months ago he mocked the idea

:53:30. > :53:36.of Scotland control its own oil wealth. Can the Prime Minister at

:53:36. > :53:40.name one power he has on his mind from this latest U-turn? I did not

:53:40. > :53:43.think that the Scottish Nationalist Party favour devolution! I thought

:53:43. > :53:47.they favour of separation! Yet a thing as you are offered a

:53:47. > :53:52.referendum that gives you the chance to put that in front of the

:53:52. > :53:57.Scottish people, you start running away -- as soon as you. Tomorrow

:53:57. > :54:01.members of this House will have the chance to debate the importance of

:54:01. > :54:06.cycling. The Minister for cycling has made some welcome and

:54:06. > :54:10.announcements and Investment. There is much to do. Will the Prime

:54:10. > :54:13.Minister commit the government to support this campaign, increase

:54:13. > :54:19.investment in cycling and take much greater steps to promote cycling

:54:19. > :54:24.across the country? This Times campaign is excellent. Anyone who

:54:24. > :54:30.has got on a bicycle particularly in one of our busiest cities knows

:54:30. > :54:34.that you are taking your life into your hands. We do need to do more

:54:34. > :54:42.to makes life a link -- cycling safer. The government is making it

:54:42. > :54:46.putting in money for training for children and better cycling routes

:54:46. > :54:51.and facilities. If we want to encourage the growth in cycling we

:54:51. > :55:01.have seen, we want to get behind campaigns like this. Since he has

:55:01. > :55:03.

:55:03. > :55:09.been prime minister,... The company has won contracts on

:55:09. > :55:13.the DWP alone worth 224 million. In view of the facts there are record

:55:13. > :55:17.numbers of unemployed people and that employees of this company have

:55:17. > :55:22.been arrested, what action is he taking to make sure that neither

:55:22. > :55:31.vulnerable unemployed people from all the taxpayer are victims of

:55:31. > :55:36.fraud? This is an important issue. I understand this issue dates back

:55:36. > :55:40.two years to schemes run by the previous government... It was the

:55:40. > :55:43.company itself that raised the issue with the relevant authorities.

:55:43. > :55:47.There is an ongoing police investigation so it would be

:55:47. > :55:51.inappropriate for me to comment further. The investigation needs to

:55:52. > :55:55.be thorough and then we can take into account its findings.

:55:55. > :55:59.Generations of young people have benefited from work experience

:55:59. > :56:02.schemes through getting any experience of the working world.

:56:02. > :56:07.Will the Prime Minister praised those companies who will do

:56:07. > :56:13.everything they possibly can to encourage work experience schemes

:56:13. > :56:22.unlike the militant hard left who would like to see people get a

:56:22. > :56:26.handout rather than a hand up? is true, the overwhelming majority

:56:26. > :56:30.of the country thinks that companies offering work experience

:56:30. > :56:35.schemes to those on benefits is a good thing. It is not a compulsory

:56:35. > :56:38.scheme, it is a scheme that young people have asked to go on and the

:56:38. > :56:43.findings are that around half of them are getting work at the end of

:56:43. > :56:47.these schemes. That is a far better outcome than the Future Jobs Fund

:56:48. > :56:50.and about the 20th of the cost so we should encourage companies and

:56:50. > :56:54.young people to expand work- experience because it gives people

:56:54. > :56:59.the chance of seeing work and all that it involves an gives them a

:56:59. > :57:04.better chance of getting a job. Thousands of workers right across

:57:04. > :57:09.Lancashire in every constituency are concerned and angry about the

:57:09. > :57:14.Eurofighter Indian contract. Earlier this week you her -- had a

:57:14. > :57:18.meeting with the Tory MPs. When will you be arranging a meeting for

:57:18. > :57:23.all Lancashire MPs? I am not arranging any meetings at 10

:57:23. > :57:28.Downing Street but it is possible the Prime Minister might. I met

:57:28. > :57:35.with a number of MPs who have BAE Systems in their constituents,

:57:35. > :57:41.including the honourable member for Hull, so why have had many MPs come

:57:41. > :57:45.to see me. -- so I have had. This government is committed to helping

:57:45. > :57:52.with Thai food in every way we can and that is why I had been taking

:57:52. > :58:00.trips right across the Middle East -- Typhoon. I often get criticised

:58:00. > :58:05.by Labour MPs for taking BAe system on the aeroplane but I think it is

:58:05. > :58:11.right to fly the flag for British Industry! Last week at the

:58:11. > :58:16.breakfast table... My wife was saying how she knew the Prime

:58:16. > :58:26.Minister wanted to deport that terrorist Abu Qatada straight away

:58:26. > :58:29.and put the national interest first,... But she knew it was being

:58:29. > :58:34.blocked by the Deputy Prime Minister and the Liberal Democrats.

:58:34. > :58:43.Suddenly, our 11-year-old son Thomas asked...

:58:43. > :58:48.LAUGHTER Foster are his Nick Clegg a goodie or a bad it? -- is Nick

:58:48. > :58:53.Clegg a goodie or baddie? There is only so much detail I can take from

:58:53. > :58:58.your household! In believing that I am very keen that Abu Qatada should

:58:58. > :59:02.be deported, your wife is indeed psychic. That is exactly what I

:59:02. > :59:06.believe. That is why the Home Secretary is working so hard with

:59:06. > :59:10.the Jordanians to get the assurances that we need so that

:59:10. > :59:20.this can take place and the Deputy Prime Minister family backs that

:59:20. > :59:20.

:59:20. > :59:24.approach! -- fully backs that approach! Rents are falling in the

:59:24. > :59:29.private rented sector, you have said, when the evidence is that

:59:29. > :59:35.rent is rising. Will the Prime Minister now take this opportunity

:59:35. > :59:39.to put the record straight or which he continued to blame the tenant

:59:39. > :59:42.when the real responsibility lies with landlords charging ever higher

:59:42. > :59:52.rent and a failure of his government's house building

:59:52. > :59:58.programme -- which he continued to blame? Coming from a party that saw

:59:58. > :00:03.housebuilding fall to its lowest level since the 1920s! We have put

:00:03. > :00:08.great effort into stamping out and kicking out racism in football in

:00:08. > :00:11.this country. When my right honourable friend brings together

:00:11. > :00:15.the sport later today, will he assure the House he will do

:00:15. > :00:19.everything to ensure that prejudice does not creep back into the game

:00:19. > :00:25.and that racism stays out of football? My honourable friend is

:00:25. > :00:28.right to raise this. It was a huge achievement, where Britain and its

:00:28. > :00:32.football authorities and football clubs lead the world in kicking

:00:32. > :00:37.racism Out Of Football, something that has not happened in all other

:00:37. > :00:40.countries. Some of the recent signs are worrying. This matters so much

:00:40. > :00:44.not just to football but to government and everyone in the

:00:44. > :00:48.country because footballers are role-models to young people. What

:00:48. > :00:52.people see on the football pitch, they copied when they go to learn

:00:52. > :00:59.to play football so it is important to bring people together and make

:00:59. > :01:03.sure we keep racism out of football for good. Can I associate myself

:01:03. > :01:07.with the Prime Minister's condolences to the member of the

:01:07. > :01:11.armed forces who lost his life in the last week? I am sure the Prime

:01:11. > :01:16.Minister would like to join me in thanking the thousands of people we

:01:16. > :01:21.serve in the reserve armed forces. However, does he agree that it is

:01:21. > :01:26.inappropriate and unsatisfactory and perhaps even arrogant that when

:01:26. > :01:31.constituents to serve in the reserve Marine forces in Dundee

:01:31. > :01:35.expressed concerns about the possible closure of that attachment,

:01:35. > :01:39.I wrote to the Ministry of Defence and they have refused to give me a

:01:39. > :01:45.definitive answer? I thank the honourable gentleman for raising

:01:45. > :01:50.the case of the brave man from the RAF who gave his life and all of

:01:50. > :01:55.those who serve in Afghanistan. The Reserve forces in our country are a

:01:55. > :02:03.huge national asset. We want to see them expanded. We have put an

:02:03. > :02:12.billion pounds into that expansion to make sure that we can do that.

:02:12. > :02:18.No decision has been taken on the future of Dundee. If you look

:02:18. > :02:23.across Scotland, you will see we need more people to join the

:02:23. > :02:28.reserves. I hope everybody will back the recruitment campaigns

:02:28. > :02:32.because if we are going to move to an army of 80,000 regulars and

:02:32. > :02:37.40,000 reservists, we need a cultural change will be really

:02:37. > :02:43.respect what our reserve forces are doing -- where we really respect.

:02:43. > :02:48.The US marshals will on Friday is caught my 65-year-old constituent

:02:48. > :02:58.from Heathrow to a jail in Texas where he will face pressure to

:02:58. > :02:59.

:02:59. > :03:03.plea-bargain -- if caught. Can the Prime Minister say the steps he is

:03:03. > :03:08.taking to withdraw the expedition treaty which has been so unfair to

:03:08. > :03:13.the likes of Gary McKinnon and now my constituent. I understand why my

:03:13. > :03:19.honourable friend raises this. In the case of Chris tapping, he has

:03:19. > :03:23.obviously been through a number of processes, and the Home Secretary

:03:23. > :03:27.has thoroughly considered his case. He raised his book point more

:03:28. > :03:32.generally of the report into the extradition arrangements, which we

:03:32. > :03:35.are now considering. He did not call for fundamental reform. The

:03:35. > :03:39.Home Secretary will carefully examine his findings and take into

:03:39. > :03:43.account the views of Parliament that have been expressed in recent

:03:43. > :03:47.debates. Balancing these arrangements is vital but it is

:03:47. > :03:52.important that at the same time we remember why we welcome -- enter

:03:52. > :03:55.into these treaties, which is to show respect for each other's

:03:55. > :04:00.judicial treaties and make sure people can be tried for crimes and

:04:00. > :04:07.Britain can benefit from that as well, so a proper and thoughtful

:04:07. > :04:12.review must take place and this case shows why. My government

:04:12. > :04:18.response to the unfair relationship between pub companies and their

:04:18. > :04:24.licensees so far has been self- regulation, not statutory

:04:24. > :04:29.regulation. On January 12th, this House voted unanimously to set up a

:04:29. > :04:33.review panel to be agreed by the Business Select Committee to review

:04:33. > :04:37.the implementation of self- regulation. To date there has been

:04:37. > :04:42.absolutely no response from the government. Can the Prime Minister

:04:42. > :04:47.tell me, is he back in the will of Parliament or the will of the pub

:04:47. > :04:52.companies? I am a keen supporter of Britain's pubs so I will write to

:04:52. > :04:56.the honourable gentleman and get a good answer. In his speech made in

:04:56. > :05:00.Edinburgh last week, the Prime Minister described Scotland as a

:05:01. > :05:05.pioneering country and a turbine hall of the Industrial Revolution.

:05:05. > :05:10.The next revolution in this country will be in green technology and the

:05:10. > :05:20.Green Investment Bank will be key in its promotion. Does he agree it

:05:20. > :05:28.

:05:28. > :05:35.Edinburgh is the perfect location And the different towns and cities

:05:35. > :05:39.and regions want to host this green investments of the investment bank.

:05:39. > :05:42.Can I ask the Prime Minister returning to the issue of the NHS

:05:42. > :05:47.and the Pirton and question posed by the leader of the opposition,

:05:47. > :05:51.why has the Prime Minister broken his promise not to engage in

:05:51. > :05:55.another top and reorganisation of the National Health Service?

:05:55. > :06:00.What we are doing is abolishing the bureaucracy that has been holding

:06:00. > :06:05.the NHS back. We will be cutting in this Parliament, �4.5 billion of

:06:05. > :06:08.bureaucracy by getting rid of the primary care trusts and strategic

:06:08. > :06:16.health authorities, all of which will be invested in patient care.

:06:16. > :06:20.His own party's policy is saying real increases in NHS spending are

:06:20. > :06:24."irresponsible". We think it is responsible and that is why we are

:06:24. > :06:28.putting the money in and they will take the money out. There have been

:06:28. > :06:34.lot of interruptions but I am concerned about the interests of

:06:34. > :06:38.backbenchers. Last week in Ethiopia would save the children, I saw at

:06:38. > :06:43.first hand how malnutrition is stunting the growth of the world's

:06:43. > :06:46.poorest children. Does the Prime Minister agreed the UK as a real

:06:46. > :06:50.opportunity to lead the international debate which will

:06:50. > :06:56.help the growth of the world's children and economic growth as

:06:56. > :07:02.well. I think she is right about this. Not only because we work with

:07:02. > :07:07.excellent organisations, Save the children, who do excellent work,

:07:07. > :07:12.but the UK is the second largest bilateral donor into the horn of

:07:12. > :07:17.Africa where we have seen this awful famine. Not only are we doing

:07:17. > :07:20.our bit in terms of investment and time, but it gives us an

:07:20. > :07:25.opportunity to lead the debate on where we need to take the

:07:25. > :07:31.development on aid agenda next. Order. Ten-minute rule motion.

:07:31. > :07:37.The Speaker allowed PMQs to overrun because of the interruptions and

:07:37. > :07:43.the rowdiness during questions about the NHS. I was thinking I

:07:43. > :07:48.wonder if the founding fathers of the NHS going back to 1848, would

:07:48. > :07:53.have thought by 2012 it could still create such heat and light in the

:07:53. > :07:58.House of Commons, so many years later? Ed Miliband decided to go on

:07:58. > :08:08.that subject. It is the first pit - - fur PMQs in a row he has gone on

:08:08. > :08:09.

:08:09. > :08:12.the NHS. -- third PMQs. As you say, most people think David

:08:12. > :08:19.Cameron was on the run over this issue.

:08:19. > :08:24.Diane said, I have heard nothing from David Cameron that reduces my

:08:24. > :08:32.anxiety and the NHS reforms. This from David in Birmingham -

:08:32. > :08:34.complete hypocrisy. David Cameron said his reforms needed the support

:08:35. > :08:38.of health professionals but he is ignoring them because they don't

:08:38. > :08:43.agree. Someone else said, what of those

:08:43. > :08:48.risk registers Ed Miliband was going on about?

:08:48. > :08:52.Martin from Wolverhampton said, Ed Miliband's questions were shallow,

:08:52. > :08:58.the role of Government should be to lead, that means facing down

:08:58. > :09:03.interest groups who oppose change. Someone else said, are all Ed

:09:03. > :09:09.Miliband cares about is people the work in the NHS, not about those

:09:09. > :09:16.who use it. I remember the days in the NHS was

:09:16. > :09:20.not to talk about it. Except that we will ring-fence it, but it is

:09:20. > :09:25.safe in our hands. When they said that, the polls showed they

:09:25. > :09:35.overtook Labour and trust for a brief period. Today the gap is back

:09:35. > :09:36.

:09:36. > :09:41.to his -- its historic whiteness. Where did it go wrong? It is a

:09:41. > :09:46.self-inflicted wound. People do give David Cameron credit for the

:09:46. > :09:50.reform of the NHS, which since its foundation has been seen as a

:09:50. > :09:54.Labour issue. Margaret Thatcher said she went private because she

:09:54. > :09:58.wanted to go to see the doctor she wanted, on the day she wanted and

:09:58. > :10:02.the time she wanted. But then became the policy of all

:10:03. > :10:06.governments within the NHS, rather than the private sector. The truth

:10:06. > :10:10.is they did not think through the politics of what this Bill would

:10:10. > :10:15.mean and how they would get it through. David Cameron is

:10:15. > :10:22.determined not to abandon it, and as I was saying, the biggest threat

:10:22. > :10:26.to it now comes from the grass roups -- grass roots the Lib Dem

:10:26. > :10:29.revolt rather than the Cabinet, where everyone has decided to hold

:10:29. > :10:36.their nose, carry on until the summer and hope something else

:10:36. > :10:40.comes up. The danger is, if they give in to more concessions to the

:10:40. > :10:46.Lib Dems, or Labour Peers and the House of Lords, and they whittle it

:10:46. > :10:49.down even more, it won't be worth the candle. They have all this he

:10:49. > :10:57.put on them for reforms for skeleton of what it was meant to

:10:58. > :11:01.be? Not only that, what Ed Miliband argued also, a change had to have

:11:01. > :11:07.the doctors and nurses on side, now you won't be in the same room as

:11:07. > :11:10.them. The most interesting one which David Cameron ignored was the

:11:10. > :11:15.complexity of commissioning. I know ministers who are worried, that in

:11:15. > :11:20.an attempt to bite of this opposition, keep the Lib Dems happy,

:11:20. > :11:24.they have created a more and more complex bureaucratic structure, but

:11:24. > :11:31.far from saving cash will involve a series of disputes from different

:11:31. > :11:38.bodies within the NHS, it is this our money to spend? Let's have a

:11:38. > :11:42.legal challenge to it. So the challenge which is recognised by

:11:42. > :11:47.ministers internally. The big week will be next week over the

:11:47. > :11:51.competition. The hints given by Nick Clegg he gave today, is a week

:11:51. > :11:57.are a listening Government. So the hint was, there may be more

:11:57. > :12:01.concessions to come on the issue of competition. It is not just the

:12:01. > :12:05.public understanding the detail, it is most people involved in the NHS,

:12:05. > :12:09.we work for an organisation, we don't always understand the detail

:12:09. > :12:12.on how they run. But the danger is things go wrong in a way that

:12:12. > :12:18.affects patient care and then people turn round and blame the

:12:18. > :12:22.Government. If you could escape Cabinet collective responsibility

:12:22. > :12:28.and able to be honest with us, I bet you would say, Andrew, I wish

:12:28. > :12:33.we had never gone down this road? On the hypothetical, I cannot

:12:33. > :12:38.escape collective responsibility. I don't want it. The choice is

:12:38. > :12:42.whether you think the NHS can standstill or if you have to make

:12:42. > :12:46.changes to enable it to rise to the challenges of the ageing population,

:12:46. > :12:50.the cost of treatment, the long- term illnesses people have. We

:12:50. > :12:56.believe it is necessary to make these changes. It is in the context

:12:56. > :13:00.of rising spending on the NHS, are the principal it remains care that

:13:00. > :13:03.it is free at the point of use and extending the principles the

:13:03. > :13:07.previous Government agreed to. people think you could have done

:13:07. > :13:11.these changes without the need for a massive bill. We could have

:13:11. > :13:18.picked up where Labour left off and you could have continued without

:13:18. > :13:24.the left of the Labour Party and the unions... Then you would have

:13:24. > :13:31.lost significant savings because removing these bureaucracies...

:13:31. > :13:35.have created bigger bureaucracies since the NHS has been founded?

:13:35. > :13:37.is a 4.5 billion saving. I don't think is true there is unanimous

:13:37. > :13:43.opposition amongst the professionals in the health service.

:13:43. > :13:47.I know from my own constituency, talking to GPs, where the ability

:13:47. > :13:50.control services in the interest of the patience is welcomed. It was

:13:51. > :13:56.clear from the summit, where the Prime Minister was talking to these

:13:56. > :13:59.groups on how the changes will work. The other., Labour believed there

:13:59. > :14:04.is a short-term advantage in jumping on this and opposing these

:14:04. > :14:08.reforms. But, look at how they are going back on reforms from a

:14:08. > :14:15.position the previous Government had. Backwards on health reform

:14:15. > :14:20.where they are turning their back on education and the anti- reform

:14:20. > :14:25.parties. It won't do them very good. Caroline Flint, we know Labour is

:14:25. > :14:30.against this health bill, you are voting against it and so on. But

:14:30. > :14:35.does Labour have a policy on health now? We did have a policy on health

:14:35. > :14:40.which we still support. It involves looking at our health service and

:14:40. > :14:44.how it changes. We still support more of the services in hospitals,

:14:44. > :14:49.being in communities to prevent people getting ill. The key issue,

:14:49. > :14:52.is the start of this process the Government embarked upon, a process

:14:52. > :14:57.they promised in the manifesto they wouldn't and wasn't in the

:14:57. > :14:59.coalition agreement. They wanted to put clinicians, the health service

:14:59. > :15:05.workers in the front line of the discussions about the future of the

:15:05. > :15:09.NHS. We now have a situation where, I would say it is unanimous, ensure

:15:10. > :15:13.you will find doctors and nurses who supported - but overwhelmingly

:15:13. > :15:18.all the institutions to represent doctors, radiologist's and nurses

:15:19. > :15:22.and so on, say they are not happy. Why are they not happy? It could

:15:22. > :15:29.open up our NHS to European competition law which would distort

:15:29. > :15:33.the way we have a managed NHS which uses the private and public sector

:15:33. > :15:38.to effect. It is different to using the private sector to get capacity

:15:38. > :15:43.into opening it up to a free-for- all. They are saying in our

:15:43. > :15:47.hospitals, in order to balance the books, half the beds been used for

:15:47. > :15:51.private patients. We are hearing consultants saying, we cannot see

:15:51. > :15:57.within the time limits we used to have, but if you go private we will

:15:57. > :16:02.see you next week. I don't want to go back to those days. Waiting

:16:02. > :16:07.times are falling. They are falling for in-patients and outpatients.

:16:07. > :16:13.Waiting times for A&E are missing their targets, waiting times to get

:16:13. > :16:18.is seen in 18 weeks are. Can I come back and get an answer to my

:16:18. > :16:21.question? How will Labour reform the NHS? We would carry on some of

:16:22. > :16:26.the work we were dealing in Government, which is look at ways

:16:26. > :16:33.in which having services in our community which will better help

:16:33. > :16:38.people prevents illnesses in the future. What else? Collaborative

:16:38. > :16:42.network to do with cancer. One of the dangers the Government is doing

:16:42. > :16:49.now... You on to the Government again, I am asking you about Labour

:16:49. > :16:55.now. Our policy is supporting and managed NHS. I don't know what that

:16:55. > :16:59.means? You have an NHS that has local accountability and we have

:16:59. > :17:04.said we are happy to look at a more clinician input into that. We had

:17:04. > :17:07.an NHS that it was working well, huge satisfaction and cost-

:17:07. > :17:11.effective, when you look at some of the regimes around the world where

:17:11. > :17:15.it is a more private sector involvement. In our country we have

:17:15. > :17:18.something unique and precious, and which is why so many members of the

:17:18. > :17:23.public, including those who vote Conservative are worried about what

:17:23. > :17:28.might happen to something that is so valued within our country.

:17:28. > :17:33.Miliband, third week in a row he has done well? Yes, this is a rich

:17:34. > :17:37.seam for him. He is playing the Prime Minister's words back at him.

:17:37. > :17:42.What is so damaging for David Cameron is having those words to

:17:42. > :17:46.say we have to have the doctors and nurses onside, and now the joke,

:17:46. > :17:51.you cannot have them in the same route. It does enormous damage to

:17:51. > :17:54.the Prime Minister. Another break point, Frank Field, Labour

:17:54. > :17:58.backbencher speaking up for the English. And when he did so, saying

:17:58. > :18:08.they should be more devolution, quite a lot of Cheers. I could not

:18:08. > :18:10.

:18:10. > :18:13.see where they were coming from, I There is a growing view that

:18:13. > :18:17.Westminster are just has to negotiate the terms of the divorce,

:18:17. > :18:21.but if the Scottish decide to stay in the UK but want one devolution,

:18:21. > :18:26.that becomes as big an issue for England as for Scotland and it

:18:26. > :18:30.cannot be one way. It is not up to the Scots alone to decide what more

:18:30. > :18:35.devolution should mean. The rest of the United Kingdom has to have a

:18:35. > :18:40.say as well. There are aspects which are important for us to

:18:40. > :18:45.discuss in England. If we look at regions around the country, bit

:18:45. > :18:49.ability for them to encourage investment -- and the ability. I am

:18:49. > :18:54.sure places like the Yorkshire and Humberside, where I have my

:18:54. > :19:01.constituency, we would like to look at opportunities for that... Back

:19:01. > :19:05.to regional government. In the localism built... No... We put in a

:19:05. > :19:10.bill to allow some of the powers that the mayor in London has in

:19:10. > :19:18.other parts of England. This is a debate that is about England as

:19:19. > :19:23.well. There were huge latitude over tax regimes and therefore you get

:19:23. > :19:30.into internal tax competition, where the Scots are able to do one

:19:30. > :19:35.thing in the north and the Midlands have no... A lot of the anger was

:19:35. > :19:40.about MPs just below the border, in the north, who could see the new

:19:40. > :19:45.powers and ability just a few miles away, and thought, what about us?

:19:45. > :19:49.It is the extremities of the UK, often amongst the poorest, the

:19:49. > :19:54.north-east, the south-west for example, where people will say, we

:19:55. > :20:02.need more power. The West Lothian question should remain. A lot of

:20:02. > :20:06.people will think that if there is devolution, more devolution, they

:20:06. > :20:12.will wonder whether Scottish MPs will be voting at all on purely

:20:12. > :20:17.English matters. It is all in debate. Only two more years to go!

:20:17. > :20:23.We don't have to resolve its this week! Big news while we were

:20:23. > :20:30.watching PMQs. Eric Pickles has sent me a tweet to say he wants a

:20:30. > :20:35.cup, too. Being avuncular and friendly, Eric Pickles, we will

:20:35. > :20:40.give you one but you have to come on the programme to get it. A are

:20:40. > :20:42.you going to be Big Lunch? I always like a big lunch.

:20:42. > :20:46.Just 156 days to go before the London Olympics, and preparations

:20:46. > :20:49.for the Games are stepping up a gear. Today a mocked-up terror

:20:49. > :20:53.attack on the London Underground is being staged as part of a massive

:20:53. > :20:57.exercise to test security. And this morning Nick Clegg has been

:20:58. > :21:01.visiting some of the venues for the Games. The Deputy PM said he

:21:01. > :21:05.believed the Olympics will leave a legacy of growth and jobs for the

:21:05. > :21:13.area. But not everyone is happy about the greatest show on earth

:21:13. > :21:15.arriving in London. The writer Iain Sinclair has spent decades

:21:15. > :21:18.documenting the capital city and its edgelands. He says the Olympic

:21:18. > :21:28.development in east London has ruined one of the capital's most

:21:28. > :21:44.

:21:44. > :21:48.magical wildernesses. Here's his The promoters of the great Olympic

:21:48. > :21:54.schemes in the Lower Lea Valley keep stressing at every possible

:21:54. > :21:58.occasion that this area was nothing but a waste land, when in fact it

:21:59. > :22:06.was one of the most magical margins of London, reduced by their

:22:06. > :22:10.activities to nothing but a toxic well than us. -- wilderness. The

:22:11. > :22:17.special quality of this landscape is that it mixed decaying

:22:17. > :22:20.industrialism with grunge pasture, a wild nature of orchards that

:22:20. > :22:26.everybody was free to wander, and we are now in danger of losing all

:22:26. > :22:35.of that for some concrete Arcadia, some computer-generated future, and

:22:35. > :22:40.I am sad about that. One of the consequences of creating the bright

:22:41. > :22:44.new future is the expulsion of the inconvenient old past. The people

:22:44. > :22:50.who used to be here, living in warehouses, walking along the

:22:50. > :23:00.marshes, cycling, fishing. They all had to make way, the whole

:23:00. > :23:05.

:23:05. > :23:10.One of the consequences of the great Olympic development has been

:23:10. > :23:18.the privatisation of public space and a huge growth in the apparatus

:23:18. > :23:22.of security. We have created an area which has to be protected. So

:23:22. > :23:28.this is the legacy that all the fuss has been about. A flat-pack

:23:28. > :23:33.stadium, an Aquatic Centre at looks like a concrete factory, a gigantic

:23:33. > :23:38.artwork and an enormous shopping mall. I don't think it is worth it.

:23:38. > :23:44.I think back to that wonderful will do miss that was here before. Not a

:23:44. > :23:48.waste land. -- wilderness. One of the most manifest, rich and

:23:48. > :23:53.deserving parts of London, and I am sorry to lose it.

:23:53. > :23:58.And Iain Sinclair is with us now. He painted a very poetic picture of

:23:58. > :24:03.an area that others might have said you have romanticised and actually

:24:03. > :24:08.it was wasteland and has now been put to better use. Being a romantic

:24:08. > :24:12.does not disqualify you from being revolutionary. If you go back to

:24:12. > :24:16.Wordsworth and William Blake, romanticism is just having an

:24:16. > :24:20.enriched sense of the past and to honour the past and not to enforce

:24:20. > :24:28.that amnesia upon it that way it's everything out to the glittering

:24:28. > :24:34.better future. -- that wipes everything out. Are you a lone

:24:34. > :24:40.voice? You described the number of people using the area. Locally

:24:40. > :24:45.there is a huge support for what I say. The officials always used this

:24:45. > :24:50.term "Waste Land" and say there was nothing there. One of the things

:24:50. > :24:55.that was there is this list of compulsory purchases and it goes on

:24:55. > :24:59.for page after page, hundreds and hundreds of names. That was what

:24:59. > :25:05.was there. While we were waking that film, an old man with a dog

:25:05. > :25:08.came to me and said, I don't know where I am, I grew up here, there

:25:09. > :25:13.were eight different businesses where I took an apprenticeship. It

:25:13. > :25:18.has all gone. But as you said, it is part of the decay of

:25:18. > :25:22.industrialism and that is why perhaps it has gone. It has gone in

:25:22. > :25:27.that sense. That world has passed and what was left was the

:25:27. > :25:31.environment. Is that not a signal to move on? It was a signal that

:25:31. > :25:34.this was a good territory to exploit because it was dying

:25:34. > :25:38.industrial mixed with a rough country that nobody could see what

:25:38. > :25:43.to do with. The awful thing is that it has been a mirror image of what

:25:43. > :25:47.we think it is. In fact there were active boat clubs and sports

:25:47. > :25:52.facilities, great chunks of Hackney Marshes have been turned into

:25:52. > :25:56.concrete, there is a battle going on at the moment about a car park

:25:56. > :26:01.taking over the marshes and a basketball court and they do not

:26:01. > :26:07.want the tarmac there, but you have to have the tarmac for the cars.

:26:07. > :26:13.not there, where would you have put the Olympic village? Paris.

:26:13. > :26:16.Let's think of something within the UK! I would not have put it is.

:26:17. > :26:21.Really we should not have gone for it. We should have learnt the

:26:21. > :26:25.lesson of pickets lot. We got the World Athletics Championships a few

:26:25. > :26:30.years before this and we had to give them back. We were going to

:26:30. > :26:36.use it to exploit any we around the M25 and it did not make sense

:26:36. > :26:42.economically so we abandoned it. Just to go back to where it is, do

:26:42. > :26:50.you think there is a sense of regret that this Waste Land, will

:26:50. > :26:54.do this, has gone forever? I have no regrets as well at all. It is a

:26:54. > :27:01.wonderful iconoclastic view but it is Waste Land. Let's look at the

:27:01. > :27:06.legacy. There are going to be 11,000 houses permanently created,

:27:06. > :27:11.we desperately need those houses, low-cost accommodation with that,

:27:11. > :27:15.as 10,000 jobs that will be permanently created as well. -- and

:27:15. > :27:21.10,000 jobs. I think that is something the public will welcome.

:27:21. > :27:25.Women look at these industrial and grimy canals -- when they look at.

:27:25. > :27:31.They will say, this is a very good use of the land and something that

:27:31. > :27:37.will benefit the public. We can't put it as housing because this is

:27:37. > :27:41.extremely radioactive soil. 7500 tons of radioactive soil came out

:27:42. > :27:47.under that stadium and is sitting in a disposal unit. This was an

:27:47. > :27:51.area of land on dams, a small nuclear reactor... Which makes the

:27:51. > :27:57.point, this has been a fantastic opportunity for the East End to

:27:57. > :28:03.detoxify the area. But they can't do it! Newham Council have done a

:28:03. > :28:09.fantastic job. They have already got 5,000 people into work, 2500

:28:09. > :28:13.long-term unemployed, they have 300 social homes coming on, 300

:28:13. > :28:19.affordable homes. I look at that as a mother and I want open space but

:28:19. > :28:23.I want open space where I think my children would be safe to go into.

:28:23. > :28:29.That isn't what it represented in terms of what you presented in your

:28:29. > :28:33.film. You have to move on. I have been there 45 years, I have put my

:28:33. > :28:40.children round and my grandchildren round and they have also right!

:28:40. > :28:49.have had the final word, thank you. -- they have all thrived. Their due