:00:43. > :00:47.Afternoon, folks. Welcome to the Daily Politics. It is a big day in
:00:47. > :00:54.Europe - again. This morning, 25 of the 27 countries in the EU signed
:00:54. > :00:58.up to a new treaty committing them to tough new debt rules. Only
:00:58. > :01:01.Britain and the Czech Republic haven't put pen to paper. But David
:01:01. > :01:03.Cameron is not feeling isolated. In fact, he is claiming victory this
:01:03. > :01:08.morning over his ideas on stimulating economic growth in
:01:08. > :01:11.Europe. We will have the latest from Brussels, get reaction from
:01:11. > :01:20.Westminster and hear why the Irish plan another referendum on this
:01:20. > :01:22.latest treaty. And, as Labour gather for their Scottish
:01:22. > :01:25.conference, Shadow Defence Secretary Jim Murphy joins us to
:01:25. > :01:30.talk Europe, Scottish independence and what action needs to be taken
:01:30. > :01:39.Riots on the streets? Petty crime making your life a misery? Bring
:01:39. > :01:44.back national service. Well, the Government have. But there's no
:01:44. > :01:47.marching and it is not compulsory. But should it be? We'll ask the
:01:47. > :01:51.minister in charge of the Big Society idea that the Government
:01:51. > :01:57.claim as a big success. And pity your poor MP, he or she is
:01:57. > :02:01.suffering. No, it is not overwork, in fact it is the opposite, with
:02:01. > :02:11.just one vote in the Commons in the last seven days. We will find out
:02:11. > :02:18.
:02:18. > :02:21.why and ask what they are doing all All that in the next hour. And with
:02:21. > :02:26.us for the duration, Vincent Moss of the Sunday Mirror and Sue
:02:26. > :02:28.Cameron of the Daily Telegraph. Before we get under way, there have
:02:28. > :02:31.been developments in the Chris Huhne court case this morning.
:02:31. > :02:37.Let's go over to our correspondent, Tom Symonds, with the latest
:02:37. > :02:43.outside Southwark Crown Court. What happened this morning? Well, this
:02:43. > :02:48.was always going to be a procedural hearing. It was over in minutes.
:02:48. > :02:53.The any new information was the fact the trial of Chris Huhne and
:02:53. > :02:59.his former wife, Vicky Pryce, will take place in October. The press
:02:59. > :03:05.pack turned out in force. Chris Huhne had to fight his way out into
:03:05. > :03:11.a taxi. It is alleged that in 2003, when his car was registered as
:03:11. > :03:15.speeding in Essex, he was driving and he passed the points to Vicky
:03:15. > :03:22.Pryce and she accepted she could take the points she -- so he did
:03:22. > :03:27.not have to. They are both charged with conspiracy to convert the
:03:27. > :03:32.course of justice. We do not know if they will plead guilty or not
:03:32. > :03:37.guilty. Sir, basically nothing happened this morning of serious
:03:37. > :03:46.development. We do have the date for the trial, which will be
:03:46. > :03:52.October. We will have enormous media interest in S. When will we
:03:52. > :03:58.know when they will plead? It is very dangerous to predict how
:03:58. > :04:04.anyone might plead in a case like this. They are jointly charged with
:04:04. > :04:13.conspiracy and, therefore, the court will hear the case as it one.
:04:13. > :04:17.They are facing individual charges. There is a case management hearing
:04:17. > :04:23.in May but the trial is not until October and that is when the trial
:04:23. > :04:26.will get under way. All eyes will be on the court in October. There
:04:26. > :04:29.are pressures on the Chancellor with the budget just three weeks
:04:29. > :04:32.away. From calls for the abolition of the 50p tax rate to alarm over
:04:32. > :04:35.petrol prices reaching an all-time high, Mr Osborne is getting a lot
:04:35. > :04:45.of advice but, economically and politically, does he really have
:04:45. > :04:45.
:04:45. > :04:50.many options? We are hearing today that Mr Osborne will keep the 50 p
:04:50. > :04:54.rate. We do not really know because it is a budget. It is likely that
:04:54. > :05:02.he will, isn't it? I would have thought it is almost politically
:05:02. > :05:08.impossible to have reduced the 50p. The gross between the rich and poor,
:05:08. > :05:12.people are acutely aware of that. It only applies to people earning
:05:12. > :05:19.over 150,000. Two said they would keep more money in their pockets
:05:19. > :05:23.would be inflammatory at the moment. -- to say. The Liberal Democrats do
:05:23. > :05:27.not want them to do it. Is that really the clinching argument or is
:05:27. > :05:34.it political reality that even if the Lib Dems won a breathing down
:05:34. > :05:38.his neck, he probably still would not do it in this budget? He may
:05:38. > :05:42.give some direction of travel and say it is not raising that much
:05:42. > :05:47.money and say, I am minded to do something towards the end of the
:05:47. > :05:51.parliament. Give a signal but not do it. There is little room for
:05:51. > :05:56.manoeuvre. It if it does not raise much money, and early evidence is
:05:56. > :06:01.that it has not, we had one accountant on the show yesterday
:06:01. > :06:04.who said he thought it would raise 5 billion. If it raised that, it
:06:04. > :06:09.would be impossible to get rid of it. You could see a deal down the
:06:09. > :06:14.road if it does not raise much money. The Lib Dems are saying, we
:06:14. > :06:21.are going to cut the tax on income - on incentive - but we're going to
:06:21. > :06:28.find ways of raising taxes on the property of the better off. I think
:06:28. > :06:34.that is a possibility. It might easier to increase the number of
:06:34. > :06:39.council tax bands. People are living in expensive houses should
:06:39. > :06:44.pay more in that way. I still think, regardless of how much of how
:06:44. > :06:49.little they 50 p raises, it is the signal it sends out to ordinary
:06:49. > :06:56.voters. The politics are very difficult. We have just learnt the
:06:56. > :07:00.price of unleaded petrol has reached a new high of 137.42 4p per
:07:00. > :07:02.litre. So, it's another big day in Brussels. This morning, 25 of the
:07:02. > :07:05.EU's 27 leaders signed the new Treaty on Stability, Coordination
:07:05. > :07:10.and Governance in the Economic and Monetary Union, designed to prevent
:07:10. > :07:20.a repeat of the current debt crisis. It will oblige the signatories to
:07:20. > :07:25.
:07:25. > :07:28.legislate against a budget deficit None of them are near that at the
:07:28. > :07:31.moment. The treaty will now go to the national parliaments for
:07:31. > :07:35.ratification. Ireland has already said that it will hold a referendum
:07:35. > :07:42.and others may follow. The only leaders not to sign were the Czech
:07:42. > :07:45.Prime Minister, and, of course, David Cameron. Last night, Mr
:07:45. > :07:48.Cameron formally raised objections that his ideas for cutting red tape
:07:48. > :07:50.were not reflected in draft summit conclusions but, today, he said
:07:50. > :07:54.that his growth plans would be incorporated in the final
:07:54. > :08:02.communique after all. And here he is, speaking to journalists in
:08:02. > :08:06.Brussels in the last hour. Before this summer, 11 other EU leaders
:08:06. > :08:11.and myself set at an action plan for growth. Many more have backed
:08:11. > :08:16.our plan since then. This is an unprecedented coalition. It brings
:08:16. > :08:19.together countries from all four corners of Europe. It was not just
:08:19. > :08:25.the traditional allies from the northern European countries, it
:08:25. > :08:30.included Spain, Italy, Poland and many others. This letter has been
:08:30. > :08:35.the main focus at this council. Together, the countries that signed
:08:35. > :08:40.this letter, represent over half of the population of the EU. We made
:08:40. > :08:45.it clear we should agree concrete steps at this meeting. Yesterday it
:08:45. > :08:50.was frustrated that the drug summit communique did not do this. Today,
:08:50. > :08:54.in Brussels, as you will see when the communique is published, we
:08:54. > :09:01.have made our voice heard. It has been fundamentally rewritten in
:09:01. > :09:04.line with our demands. The Prime Minister is claiming a great
:09:04. > :09:08.political victory in Brussels. Sometimes it is true and sometimes
:09:08. > :09:13.it is not. Let's go over to our political correspondent, Iain
:09:13. > :09:20.Watson, in Brussels. You were telling us that it looked like
:09:20. > :09:24.Herman van Rompuy and the Commission had basically ignored
:09:24. > :09:30.the British-backed document. Now the Prime Minister is saying it is
:09:30. > :09:35.at the centre of things. Unravel it for as. The truth lies somewhere in
:09:35. > :09:42.between. David Cameron was keen to show he was not isolated. He turned
:09:42. > :09:49.up early for the summit. Gordon Brown turned up late wants to sign
:09:49. > :09:52.a treaty. 11 other countries had signed this letter, causing formal
:09:52. > :09:56.steps to boost economic growth. Last night he said he was
:09:56. > :10:03.frustrated because he was ignored. Today he said the communique had
:10:03. > :10:08.been fundamentally rewritten to incorporate what he was looking for,
:10:08. > :10:15.specifically timetables for lifting some EU regulations by 20th July 14
:10:15. > :10:21.and he saw that as a significant step forward. Two countries he did
:10:21. > :10:27.not mention were France and Germany. No soon as he claimed victory bend
:10:27. > :10:33.Nicolas Sarkozy issued his own rebuttal. I am not a polyglot. This
:10:33. > :10:38.is the sense of it. He said, he could not considered 10%, 15% of
:10:39. > :10:41.the demands of David Cameron and the temptation for deregulation is
:10:41. > :10:46.ever-present with Britain and Sweden and we do not want to see
:10:46. > :10:51.that on the table. I have spoken to EU Commission sources who said that
:10:51. > :10:56.David Cameron got about half of what he was asking for. That is a
:10:56. > :11:00.negative view. It reflects a bit of scepticism. The Prime Minister is
:11:00. > :11:06.wagging his finger at the rest of them at the EU summit. He was
:11:06. > :11:11.claiming victory today. We should be doing more to claim alliances.
:11:11. > :11:14.Nonetheless, let's be clear about this. The British government would
:11:14. > :11:19.say, if we had not made a point of this and got this round-robin
:11:19. > :11:22.together with 11 other countries, had it not been for the work of
:11:22. > :11:26.officials behind the scenes, there is a possibility would have got
:11:26. > :11:32.more warm words on gross but not what we need to boost the economy
:11:32. > :11:37.in difficult economic times. -- Kriss Akabusi. Was it the intention
:11:37. > :11:42.to ignore what Mr Cameron was asking for because it was not in
:11:42. > :11:50.the original draft? He made a song and dance about it and said, all
:11:50. > :11:55.right, we will write some extra bits into it. I saw at the original
:11:55. > :11:59.draft. There were four pages about the need for economic growth. This
:11:59. > :12:04.was only a draft and for circulation. We were always
:12:04. > :12:10.prepared to beef it up. We have made more progress towards
:12:10. > :12:15.deregulation than David Cameron is admitting. They saw being blunt
:12:15. > :12:19.about it as a manufactured row. The Prime Minister said, I led the way
:12:19. > :12:24.that it was not just me. Other countries like thin and stared up
:12:24. > :12:30.at the summit and decided they were going to back this. -- finance. He
:12:30. > :12:33.was not just playing to the domestic gallery. Herman van Rompuy
:12:33. > :12:38.had just been re-elected as President of the Council for
:12:38. > :12:46.another two-and-a-half years. David Cameron was trying to say, do not
:12:47. > :12:52.just listen to France and Germany. The feature EU budget, that will be
:12:52. > :12:58.negotiated. He says he has a guarantee of a proper discussion of
:12:58. > :13:02.EU trade in July. Thank you very much. He is not a polyglot but he
:13:02. > :13:05.is Scottish. And we are joined by Tory MP Stewart Jackson. He
:13:05. > :13:07.resigned as a government job over Europe last autumn and Sharon
:13:07. > :13:16.Bowles, Liberal Democrat MEP and chairwoman of the European
:13:16. > :13:24.Parliament's Economic Affairs Committee. Sharon, let me come to
:13:24. > :13:29.you. 25 of the 27 have approved the treaty. It has to be ratified but
:13:29. > :13:33.it looks like it is going ahead. It calls for fiscal union, the
:13:33. > :13:39.constitutional budget level laid down in law, and for more and more
:13:39. > :13:44.central control of individual economies on fiscal matters. For
:13:44. > :13:50.the foreseeable future, for this generation, all other means Britain
:13:50. > :13:56.will not join the euro. I think if Britain were to join the euro, it
:13:56. > :14:01.is a long way in the future. long? Certainly more than 10 years.
:14:01. > :14:06.I think it is off the table currently. To my mind, a lot will
:14:06. > :14:10.depend on what happens with eurobonds. If we get genuine
:14:10. > :14:13.eurobonds were joint and several liability and deep and liquid bond
:14:14. > :14:19.markets, there might come a point where that reflects upon what
:14:19. > :14:25.happens to gilts and we might have to think about it again from that
:14:25. > :14:32.point of view. Good luck with the Germans and that! It sounds as if
:14:32. > :14:37.you are hankering for membership. We have had other ambitions as well.
:14:37. > :14:43.I had interviewed every Lib Dem leader in recent memory and they
:14:43. > :14:52.have all made Europe one of the defining issues of your party. That
:14:52. > :14:56.ambition is not over. Hang on! We are in Europe. To join the euro?
:14:56. > :15:01.still think there are potentially circumstances where the UK may
:15:01. > :15:06.choose. The reasons worried did not join, some have been cured, like
:15:06. > :15:11.the fact there was not enough discipline but the facts such
:15:11. > :15:16.discipline would require much closer union, which was not to the
:15:16. > :15:19.overall UK taste. That has increased. If you look at it
:15:19. > :15:24.democratically, I think it is less likely to happen. You are shaking
:15:24. > :15:28.your head. I just cannot believe this delusion of the Liberal
:15:28. > :15:32.Democrats. They should be honest and say, had we listen to them, we
:15:32. > :15:36.would be more less in the same position as Greece. What the euro
:15:36. > :15:40.has done is inflicted policy and destitution on millions of Greek
:15:40. > :15:45.citizens. It has not worked and it has not worked because essentially
:15:45. > :15:51.it is a political project, driven by the bureaucratic European elite
:15:51. > :15:55.you want to extend their power. It is not about trade. We are a
:15:55. > :16:00.trading nation and a proud trading nation - the 5th biggest in the
:16:00. > :16:04.world. We do not need to be in this high-tax customers Union. The
:16:04. > :16:09.quicker the Liberal Democrats can understand the their way with the
:16:09. > :16:14.rest of the population, the better. That seemed to be a mix-up of the
:16:14. > :16:20.EU and Europe. That sometimes happens. I am talking about the
:16:20. > :16:26.European Union. You want out of the European Union. I have not said
:16:26. > :16:30.that. Let's ask her. I think for too long, you have to be over 55
:16:30. > :16:34.years of age ever to have been asked whether you believe in
:16:34. > :16:37.Britain having a close and what integrated approach to the European
:16:37. > :16:42.Union. The answer to the question is quite straightforward - we
:16:43. > :16:47.should have a referendum on future membership. How would you vote?
:16:48. > :16:52.am still agnostic. You could abstain! I would vote one way of
:16:52. > :16:56.the end of the stub it sounds to me want to vote No But cannot tell us.
:16:56. > :17:06.We are not having a debate. The need to have a debate among
:17:06. > :17:09.
:17:09. > :17:13.everyone. A moderate, well-informed What surprises me is anybody takes
:17:13. > :17:20.any notice. Have part of the deal is Europe will increase its
:17:20. > :17:25.employment rate by 75%, up to send 2%. The lisbon treaty said Europe
:17:25. > :17:30.would be the technological powerhouse of the world by 2010. I
:17:30. > :17:37.don't bake that happened, you just have to go to silicon Valley. Why
:17:37. > :17:41.did people bother? It's all nonsense! They like to put targets
:17:41. > :17:48.in as a headline. This time, there is quite a lot of work to try to
:17:49. > :17:52.make things happen. 20 measures coming forward to actually do more
:17:52. > :17:57.in the Single Market, remove the barriers still there, which should
:17:57. > :18:03.help growth. If you had 20 pieces of legislation referred to, it
:18:03. > :18:09.would stretch even your tolerance. There are much more positive moves.
:18:09. > :18:17.It is a fantasy move. Herman Van Rompuy was tweeting, thank you for
:18:17. > :18:22.re-electing the. I missed the election. Did you get a vote? Don't
:18:22. > :18:26.you think the public is losing patience? They keep on going to
:18:26. > :18:33.these summits, fight their internal battles. For the people watching
:18:33. > :18:38.this programme, for 99.9%, it means next to nothing. It is right it
:18:38. > :18:43.means next to nothing in a way. They have come up with a new
:18:43. > :18:46.agreement setting strict agreements on the size of the deficit. Even
:18:46. > :18:54.before they signed it, Spain and the Netherlands were saying, we are
:18:55. > :19:01.sorry, we can't manage this. We are talking as if, having signed it, it
:19:01. > :19:07.happens. The one they we know about Europe is, when they signed things,
:19:07. > :19:11.that is just the beginning of the argument. Exactly, it is about
:19:11. > :19:17.David Cameron playing to the domestic audience. His own party is
:19:17. > :19:22.at war over this. He tried to veto it. He is widely ignored in Europe.
:19:22. > :19:27.It is about shoring up the right wing of the Conservative Party.
:19:27. > :19:32.There is a settled Euro-sceptic can sentence in the Conservative Party.
:19:32. > :19:37.David Cameron is doing what people criticised him for in the past,
:19:38. > :19:42.building a coalition around growth, low taxes, low regulation, with
:19:42. > :19:50.other parties. We're now joined from Dublin by the
:19:50. > :19:54.Irish Finance Minister Brian Hayes. Thank you for joining us. Am I
:19:55. > :19:59.right in thinking that the legal advice, you might not want a
:19:59. > :20:06.referendum as a government, but the legal advice made it inevitable you
:20:06. > :20:11.have to have won under the Irish constitution? Good afternoon. The
:20:11. > :20:16.advice the Attorney General gave the government this week was that,
:20:16. > :20:23.on balance, a referendum should be held. We love those in Ireland,
:20:23. > :20:27.asking people their views on Europe. The view of the government is, even
:20:27. > :20:31.though this is an Inter governmental treaty, the
:20:31. > :20:35.constitutional test is quite strong here in Ireland and the government
:20:35. > :20:39.is going into this referendum in a positive position because it is
:20:39. > :20:43.good for Ireland and Europe to pass this duty and make sure that the
:20:43. > :20:49.mess created over the last number of years in Ireland and across the
:20:49. > :20:57.eurozone never happens again. We need to put in place strong rules,
:20:57. > :21:01.which get this crisis beyond, so we can move the agenda. 2012 should be
:21:01. > :21:10.the agenda around growth and jobs and creating new prospects for
:21:10. > :21:13.people. It is tough, it involves a considerable loss of sovereignty.
:21:13. > :21:23.Your opponents may even exaggerate the loss of sovereignty. You have
:21:23. > :21:24.
:21:24. > :21:28.to give up a lot of budget powers, even some tax powers. In Ireland,
:21:28. > :21:33.Berlin seems to know about one of your budget agreements even before
:21:33. > :21:39.the Irish. It is not plain sailing? It is not, the government knows
:21:39. > :21:44.that. The great majority of people in this country no that the
:21:44. > :21:49.continuation of the euro and the establishment of the euro is
:21:49. > :21:54.crucial. We produce more than we can see him. We are exporting
:21:54. > :21:58.country. The only way back for Ryland is to export our goods and
:21:58. > :22:06.services and the best way it is with a strong attachment to hard
:22:06. > :22:11.currency. We also have over 250,000 direct and indirect jobs in this
:22:11. > :22:15.economy as a result of foreign direct investment, US and
:22:15. > :22:20.multinationals who come to Ireland because of its good location and
:22:21. > :22:29.quality of work force, also we are at the heart of the euro project.
:22:29. > :22:34.To create any uncertainty in economic history would be crazy.
:22:34. > :22:40.Most people realise, if we have to come back as a country, we need the
:22:41. > :22:49.support of all European countries, support of the eurozone. A means of
:22:49. > :22:59.doing that is part in this treaty. It is not going to be plain sailing.
:22:59. > :23:02.
:23:02. > :23:12.I covered your referendum on the niece's treaty, I covered your
:23:12. > :23:19.
:23:19. > :23:23.referendum -- Nice treat. -- and Lisbon. And you're lost. Will you
:23:23. > :23:28.be forced to have a second referendum? This is unlike any
:23:28. > :23:32.other referendum for the following reason. Once the requisite number
:23:32. > :23:38.of countries in the eurozone implement the treaty, the treaty
:23:38. > :23:44.goes on, without us. The question for us, do we have access to key
:23:44. > :23:48.emergency funding which we may or may not require in the future? We
:23:48. > :23:55.have a very precarious public finance position, a current budget
:23:55. > :24:00.deficit, just under 10%, we have got to get that down to 3% by 2015.
:24:00. > :24:07.It will be crazy for this country, in a circumstance where there could
:24:07. > :24:12.be up to 750 billion in a special fund, as a stop gap for the euro,
:24:12. > :24:21.if we couldn't have access. That is something Irish people will be
:24:21. > :24:29.mindful of. Sorry to interrupt. To get clarification, are you saying,
:24:29. > :24:33.even if you vote no, which Brussels which -- will regard as wrong, they
:24:33. > :24:36.won't make you vote again in a second referendum? There won't be a
:24:36. > :24:41.second referendum because no one will be making us do anything
:24:41. > :24:44.because other countries will simply go off on their merry way and
:24:44. > :24:50.create the conditions were the treaty can be established, without
:24:50. > :24:54.us. This isn't about Brussels telling the Irish what to do, it is
:24:54. > :24:58.about ourselves deciding what we want to do. There won't be any
:24:58. > :25:05.second referendum, the Deputy Prime Minister has made that clear. This
:25:05. > :25:15.and we wanted was to campaign on ensuring we don't get into this
:25:15. > :25:18.
:25:18. > :25:25.mess again. It is good for Ireland, and good for Europe.
:25:25. > :25:31.Coming back to London. On this treaty, it puts into law, into
:25:31. > :25:40.constitutional amendment, the size your deficit can be. How does that
:25:40. > :25:48.square with the Liberal Democrats? Your party is riddled with
:25:48. > :25:53.Keynsians. They would say that is nonsense. If there is an over
:25:53. > :25:58.arching problem, externally, there are get-out clauses in his duty. If
:25:58. > :26:08.there is something... It strangely. It is not worth the paper it is
:26:08. > :26:12.written on! The balanced budget aspect as far as I can see, don't
:26:12. > :26:17.make a lot of difference to that we have already put partly into
:26:17. > :26:22.legislation in the last round, where we had balanced budgets in
:26:22. > :26:26.that. There is more that is coming in, in new legislation. The House
:26:26. > :26:32.of Lords has said there is nothing in that treaty the UK could not
:26:32. > :26:42.sign up to. Obviously, finds which applied to the eurozone would not
:26:42. > :26:43.
:26:43. > :26:50.apply. -- fines. But all the rest to do with balanced budgets, we do.
:26:50. > :26:55.The Maastricht criteria contained all the right rules, they are
:26:55. > :27:01.already there. They were broken. Everyone knew Greece was fiddling.
:27:01. > :27:06.The elephant in the room surely... And the UK helped France and
:27:06. > :27:10.Germany escape when it came round to the vote. Surely, the Germans
:27:10. > :27:15.are the influential people, they will dictate whether the European
:27:15. > :27:22.Central Bank will be the lender of key resort. They are not willing to,
:27:22. > :27:24.for political reasons. We should be focusing on a low regulation, this
:27:24. > :27:29.is that institutions and power- broking in Europe.
:27:29. > :27:33.If you're planning a trip to Dundee this weekend, watch out. The place
:27:33. > :27:37.will be crawling with the great and the good from the Labour Party. Get
:27:37. > :27:40.there early, and you might even bump into Ed Miliband, who's taking
:27:40. > :27:48.the fight to Alex Salmond over independence with a speech this
:27:48. > :27:53.afternoon. Among his many warm-up acts today will be Shadow Defence
:27:53. > :28:00.Secretary Jim Murphy. We'll speak to him in a moment. First, here's a
:28:00. > :28:05.flavour of Douglas Alexander's address to conference this morning.
:28:05. > :28:09.As proud Scots, we may feel there is nowhere better, but we also
:28:09. > :28:13.understand there is something bigger. And if, in the coming
:28:13. > :28:17.century, our influence is to be increased and not diminished, our
:28:17. > :28:22.global reach is to be extended not limited, we need the British
:28:22. > :28:26.connection. So, in the months ahead, it will fall to Scottish Labour, to
:28:26. > :28:32.every person gathered in this hall, to every party member in the
:28:32. > :28:35.country, to say in the case that Scotland stands taller on the world
:28:35. > :28:42.stage as part of Britain, we are stronger together and we would be
:28:42. > :28:49.weaker apart. Douglas Alexander. Jim Murphy joins
:28:50. > :28:55.us now, from the conference in Dundee. Is Scotland really up for
:28:55. > :29:02.this fight for independence? Welcome to Dundee. I am looking at
:29:02. > :29:07.the window, it is a lovely day. We meet in Dundee, is city with a
:29:07. > :29:14.great history, through tough times. The Labour Party is up for it, not
:29:14. > :29:20.for our own sake but for the people who are hurting in this city and
:29:20. > :29:24.across the country. We lost an election in Scottish Parliament, we
:29:24. > :29:29.didn't lose our sense of right and wrong or our self-confidence. We
:29:30. > :29:36.have got to stop apologising, and take the fight to the two
:29:37. > :29:42.governments we face, in the Commons and the Scottish Government.
:29:42. > :29:49.they will be your allies in the fight for the union? On supporting
:29:49. > :29:53.devolution, they will be our biggest ally, the truth, Logic,
:29:53. > :30:03.common sense, the Scottish public. Folk hero know a good deal when
:30:03. > :30:04.
:30:04. > :30:10.they see one. Ultimately, Scots are patriotic, fiercely so. A good deal
:30:10. > :30:20.is getting a fantastic deal as part of the UK. Who will lead the Labour
:30:20. > :30:22.
:30:22. > :30:29.The Scottish public. Which Labour leader will lead it? We will have
:30:29. > :30:34.Johann Lamont at the head of it. You will have Johann Lamont as
:30:34. > :30:38.leader of the Labour Party campaign for the union? Yes, there will be a
:30:38. > :30:45.Labour Party campaign and an all- party campaign which will involve
:30:45. > :30:50.people from all political parties. That is the way to do it. Come the
:30:50. > :30:53.big debates for independence, if we have this referendum, not just on
:30:53. > :30:58.Scottish television but network television throughout the British
:30:58. > :31:04.Isles, many may be taken throughout the world given the importance of
:31:04. > :31:10.where the United Kingdom stays together or not, who, in these
:31:10. > :31:19.debates, will represent Labour up against Alex Salmond? Let's see who
:31:19. > :31:27.the BBC invites! That is a cop out. Who do you offer? The clever you
:31:27. > :31:32.invite will come on to your television. I know it makes good
:31:32. > :31:37.telly for you and I to shout at one another hundreds of miles apart. No
:31:37. > :31:42.one in Dundee or any street across Scotland is thinking, he will be in
:31:42. > :31:46.the TV debate? What they want is a conversation about what separation
:31:46. > :31:51.means, what interest rates would apply. Those other big questions we
:31:51. > :31:56.will face. At some point we will get the issue of who will make the
:31:56. > :32:00.debate in television studios. understand that. I would not have
:32:00. > :32:06.to shout at you if you just answer the questions. I answered it but
:32:06. > :32:10.you did not give me the answer. did not answer it. Who will lead
:32:10. > :32:14.the campaign against Alex Salmond? There will be a team effort of all
:32:14. > :32:20.the parties. I look forward to playing my part, I look forward to
:32:20. > :32:27.Alistair Darling claimed his pack - - his part. Let's see who the BBC
:32:27. > :32:31.it invites. That is an absurd one such. The viewers will make up
:32:31. > :32:38.their minds. You said you were not share a platform with David Cameron
:32:38. > :32:45.to save the Union, is that still true? I do not think it helped make
:32:45. > :32:49.the argument for the United Kingdom. I saw Labour politicians doing that
:32:49. > :32:53.on the first past the post and the eight the referendums. It is not my
:32:53. > :32:59.politics. There will be an all- party campaign. This campaign will
:32:59. > :33:03.be led in Scotland. David Cameron not be leading this campaign.
:33:03. > :33:07.have called for an all-party campaign. That would imply all
:33:07. > :33:14.three leaders of the mainstream parties should get together to
:33:14. > :33:20.fight Scottish nationalists. You're saying despite the all-party
:33:20. > :33:23.campaign, you would not appear with the Tories. The Labour Party, the
:33:23. > :33:27.Conservative Party and the Lib Dems. Leaders and Scotland will come
:33:27. > :33:33.together. It is not about taking on Alex Salmond, it is about making a
:33:33. > :33:37.case for Scotland in the United Kingdom. If we can set aside the
:33:37. > :33:41.personalities, it is about the substance. That is what the
:33:41. > :33:48.nationalists want. They have the dominant individual who behaves
:33:48. > :33:53.like the King of Scotland. That is not what this debate is about. Who
:33:54. > :33:58.will set the interest rates? How big will the Army be, the Navy?
:33:58. > :34:03.These are enormous issues which will decide the debate in Scotland.
:34:03. > :34:07.It will be all party led by the three party leaders of the Scottish
:34:07. > :34:14.party's. Thank you. We were led to get back to Dundee. Good luck in
:34:14. > :34:19.finding a leader against Mr Salmond. There we have it. A Labour campaign
:34:19. > :34:24.that does not have a leader. would cut this morning to find out
:34:24. > :34:29.it was the BBC who had chosen Engelbert Humperdinck to be our
:34:29. > :34:36.representative in Eurovision. thought he was dead actually! I am
:34:36. > :34:40.glad he is not. He is not running to either a break-up or save the
:34:40. > :34:45.Union. From listening to Jim Murphy there, they have not really got
:34:45. > :34:50.someone to lead their sight of the argument. He is saying, although it
:34:50. > :34:54.is about the future of the country, I will not appear but the Tories.
:34:54. > :35:01.If I was Alex Salmond, Aled Brew up another coffee and say, we're off
:35:01. > :35:06.to the races. -- I would brew up. The Conservatives and Labour in
:35:06. > :35:11.Scotland have some very lightweight politicians. All the best a down in
:35:11. > :35:17.Westminster. Possibly they should be repatriated to lead the campaign.
:35:17. > :35:21.It needs decent politicians of that stature. Alex Salmond is a much
:35:21. > :35:27.better politician. They need more heavyweight characters, the
:35:27. > :35:35.Conservatives as well. What do you think about Johann Lamont leading
:35:35. > :35:41.the campaign? She looks a very small figure when compared with
:35:41. > :35:45.Alex Salmond. And, if you can't get enough of Scottish independence,
:35:45. > :35:55.don't worry. I'll be interviewing First Minister Alex Salmond on the
:35:55. > :35:57.
:35:57. > :36:00.Sunday Politics this Sunday at noon on BBC1. -- at 11:30am. These days,
:36:00. > :36:04.if someone offered you the chance to pay university tuition fees of
:36:04. > :36:06.�1,000, you'd probably bite their hand off. But, back in the early
:36:07. > :36:09.days of the Blair government, their introduction caused outrage. Since
:36:09. > :36:12.then, how we pay for higher education has proved a minefield
:36:12. > :36:15.for both Labour and Coalition governments and it has got
:36:15. > :36:18.increasingly expensive. But what does the man who first brought
:36:18. > :36:28.tuition fees in think about where we are today and what has their
:36:28. > :36:41.
:36:41. > :36:47.Student grants, here to stay it! Protests on the streets of London
:36:47. > :36:52.and many other cities as well. Why? Tuition fees are being introduced
:36:52. > :36:57.by the Government. It seems like a long time ago. Back in the early
:36:57. > :37:01.days of New Labour, it was the job of David Blunkett to sell the idea
:37:01. > :37:05.to a deeply sceptical public. People were genuinely and
:37:05. > :37:12.understandably worried about the breach of the principle over the
:37:12. > :37:15.previous 25 years of so-called free education. So, in the face of
:37:15. > :37:21.pretty fierce opposition, upfront fees came in with concessions for
:37:21. > :37:26.the less well off. In 2001, Labour promised there would be no top pubs.
:37:26. > :37:31.Two years later they changed their minds. Tuition fees would be paid
:37:31. > :37:34.after students graduated but they could be as much as �3,000 a year.
:37:34. > :37:42.More furious protests and it almost brought down the Blair government.
:37:42. > :37:46.Why did they do it? Tony and Gordon got cold feet. They started to feel
:37:47. > :37:51.the wind of parents. Students would not be hit in that way but they did
:37:51. > :37:56.not like the upfront contribution. The demo is of 2004 were repeated
:37:56. > :38:01.six years later when the cap was raised by this government to �9,000.
:38:01. > :38:06.David Blunkett voted against it but sets -- but accepts that Labour set
:38:06. > :38:13.the tone. The pressure once you have changed the system and once
:38:13. > :38:17.you could repeat the mantra there was no bump -- upfront payment -
:38:17. > :38:20.therefore be the students paying at the time they could afford it -
:38:20. > :38:27.that mantra immediately allowed the upward pressure to the point we
:38:27. > :38:31.have seen today. The number of students applying to go to
:38:31. > :38:38.university has dropped by 10%. Has the introduction of students' fees
:38:38. > :38:45.rarely had the chilling effect expected? 18 euros have not had the
:38:45. > :38:52.chance to go to university before. -- year olds. The number has gone
:38:52. > :38:57.down by 4%. That is much less than many of us thought. The number of
:38:57. > :39:01.students who are applying for more -- from more disadvantaged
:39:01. > :39:07.backgrounds has been the smallest dip of them all. Could that move
:39:07. > :39:12.away from the system of upfront fees? I think there is a real risk
:39:12. > :39:17.that upfront payments would have put students off. We have a system
:39:17. > :39:21.where you pay according to how much you earn. In many ways, it is more
:39:21. > :39:26.socially progressive Foster how much you pay depends on what you
:39:26. > :39:30.learn when you graduate. Looking back, does David Blunkett regret
:39:30. > :39:35.being the man who brought in tuition fees? Yes and No. I regret
:39:35. > :39:42.we have ended up with a situation with substantial fees, with a big
:39:42. > :39:48.reduction in England of 10% in those applying for university from
:39:48. > :39:51.autumn 2012. And a great deal of fear, I think, about what it means
:39:51. > :39:56.about the introduction of fees and the contribution that was made
:39:56. > :40:02.first aid by parents and in the feature by students. It has not
:40:03. > :40:07.damaged universities. It has allowed substantial expansion. It
:40:07. > :40:12.has allowed the maintenance of world-class quality. That really
:40:12. > :40:14.does matter. And, to discuss all that, we are joined from Hull by
:40:14. > :40:20.the chair of the Education Select Committee, Conservative MP Graham
:40:20. > :40:25.Stuart. And the author and blogger Owen Jones is with us too. Welcome
:40:25. > :40:31.to both of you. Application figures for 2012 show a minimal drop
:40:31. > :40:36.overall. What was all the fuss about? There has been a drop. It is
:40:36. > :40:40.too early to tell in terms of long- term prospects. This government has
:40:40. > :40:50.scrapped 15,000 places this year. You have to take into account the
:40:50. > :40:52.
:40:52. > :40:59.effect of scrapping of Educational Maintenance Allowance. Where is the
:40:59. > :41:04.support to show that places and applications have dropped? It talks
:41:04. > :41:14.about a drop in public services. When Labour induced top up fees, a
:41:14. > :41:16.
:41:16. > :41:21.disappeared. In Scotland, you have free education and the drop is only
:41:21. > :41:25.3%. Arts and humanities has had its funding completely withdrawn. The
:41:25. > :41:31.Government has an ideological approach to these matters. Courses
:41:31. > :41:37.such as arts and humanities are falling by the wayside. The whole
:41:37. > :41:43.thing was that it would deter kids from the poorest backgrounds. You
:41:43. > :41:46.turned out to be wrong. No, I did not turn out to be wrong.
:41:46. > :41:54.Applications from kits from the poorest backgrounds barely
:41:54. > :42:01.registered a drop at all. How much did they dropped by? 0.2%. That is
:42:01. > :42:09.statistically insignificant. This is from a very low base. The top
:42:09. > :42:13.5th richest students come at over a half applied for university. We are
:42:13. > :42:18.talking about a very low base. Unless we're talking about a
:42:18. > :42:22.dramatic expansion, we want lots of people from all backgrounds to go
:42:22. > :42:27.to university, we will not achieve that if people are deterred by huge
:42:27. > :42:32.amounts. The number of kids from poor backgrounds going to
:42:32. > :42:39.university has barely changed. has not increased from a very low
:42:39. > :42:46.base. I use saying that 0.2% is statistically significant? -- are
:42:46. > :42:51.you saying? It is a low base. The scrapping of Educational
:42:51. > :42:57.Maintenance Allowance - 49% of colleges in this country - have
:42:57. > :43:03.reported a decline in student numbers. The poorest students are
:43:03. > :43:11.not even going to six form. When will fees go up? When will these go
:43:11. > :43:15.up? They have tripled in recent years. When do they go up again?
:43:15. > :43:20.The important thing is people like Owen have gone on suggesting that
:43:20. > :43:26.these were going up too far for those from disadvantaged
:43:26. > :43:32.backgrounds. So -- statistics show they have not. In a system where
:43:32. > :43:37.most people who go to university, we're going to do our best to close
:43:37. > :43:40.the gap, it will continue to be dominated by people from better-off
:43:40. > :43:45.families. We do not want people who never stood a chance of getting to
:43:45. > :43:48.university and into work longer hours and pay more tax to subsidise
:43:48. > :43:52.the rich to go to university. That is what left-wing people like Owen
:43:52. > :43:57.have been arguing - they have been arguing it would put up the poor.
:43:57. > :44:02.The new system is working. Universities will have 10% more
:44:02. > :44:05.money by 2015. We have a more responsive university sector. We
:44:05. > :44:09.hear from universities that the questions from students and they
:44:09. > :44:15.come to the open days are much more focused. There is a lot more
:44:15. > :44:20.attention to detail. Universities are having to respond. That is fine.
:44:20. > :44:24.I question to you was how can future students of tomorrow and not
:44:24. > :44:27.take it for granted that these will stay roughly in real terms where
:44:27. > :44:34.they are and that we're not on an escalation of fees that will rise
:44:34. > :44:38.and rise and rise and get to American levels? What we have is a
:44:38. > :44:43.system where you do not have to pay until you earn decent money. If you
:44:43. > :44:46.do not earn decent money, you do not have to pay at all. As long as
:44:46. > :44:51.we have the right Progressive support in place, this system is
:44:51. > :44:55.more progressive than the old one. It works out about five had and �40
:44:55. > :45:01.the year less than the old system. You have to earn more money before
:45:01. > :45:08.you start paying. We have a big improvement. As long as we have the
:45:08. > :45:12.right framework in place, these should rise as and when required in
:45:12. > :45:18.future. They should not be frozen for ever. They could be index-
:45:18. > :45:28.linked? Well, we will need to look at what is politically and most
:45:28. > :45:31.
:45:31. > :45:37.importantly education league Do these figures seen convincing?
:45:37. > :45:41.agree with you. I do think we are still in quite troubled waters, it
:45:41. > :45:48.will take a few more years before you can really see what is
:45:48. > :45:53.happening. And it has always been the case, kids from disadvantaged
:45:53. > :45:59.backgrounds found it difficult to get to university. I wouldn't have
:45:59. > :46:08.gone to university if these fees were instituted. We're heading
:46:08. > :46:17.towards an American system where you need a small fortune. Let us
:46:17. > :46:22.see how things develop. The final word? The number of people from the
:46:22. > :46:25.poorest backgrounds going to university is shockingly low. A
:46:25. > :46:31.third of courses in England have disappeared since the introduction
:46:31. > :46:34.of fees. If you're an MP, it's a hard life.
:46:34. > :46:38.I'm not kidding. With constituency surgeries, a bulging post bag and
:46:38. > :46:42.all those babies to kiss, it can be tough. So you'll be pleased to
:46:42. > :46:45.learn that things are easing up over the road in the Commons. In
:46:45. > :46:50.the past seven days, honourable members have only been called to
:46:50. > :46:57.vote once. That was yesterday, and most of them are still having a lie
:46:57. > :47:00.down to get over the shock. But not one man. Ealing MP Stephen Pound is
:47:00. > :47:10.up and about, and joins us from College Green outside Parliament,
:47:10. > :47:11.
:47:11. > :47:16.along with the Independent on Sunday's Matt Chorley.
:47:16. > :47:22.So, you have nothing to do these days? I am grateful for your
:47:22. > :47:26.concern. We have a great deal to do. However, there is an odd mood on
:47:26. > :47:32.the floor of the chamber, Tumbleweed blowing down the
:47:32. > :47:37.corridors. The government has lost control of the timetable. We had
:47:37. > :47:43.the covers on recess and the Lords sitting, then the other way around.
:47:43. > :47:50.This week, you know when you are desperate for business, we debate a
:47:50. > :47:59.motion on protecting UK interest in respect to the Treaty on Stability,
:47:59. > :48:08.Coordination and Governance, you know you were desperate men.
:48:08. > :48:18.you on a one-line whip? No, there is an important debate next Monday
:48:18. > :48:18.
:48:18. > :48:27.with a three-line whip. Because... Because it is a Labour debate! You
:48:27. > :48:37.have to turn up for that. That was confidential! What is the mood up
:48:37. > :48:38.
:48:38. > :48:43.like -- like it at Westminster? are lucky to find an MP. A lot of
:48:43. > :48:47.them are working very hard in their constituencies. The fact we are
:48:47. > :48:57.getting into almost the local election campaigning has nothing to
:48:57. > :49:07.do with a fat it is difficult to find MPs at the moment. -- the fact.
:49:07. > :49:09.
:49:09. > :49:12.It is a very good thing, the less law-making they do, the better!
:49:12. > :49:16.Look at the Health Service Bill, most of which they didn't need
:49:16. > :49:24.legislation for, it has got them into terrible trouble. It is much
:49:24. > :49:27.better if they do not do too much law-making. Isn't it also the
:49:27. > :49:32.product of coalition government, they are running out of things they
:49:32. > :49:37.agree on to legislate on? They put all of the big bills, health,
:49:37. > :49:47.welfare, that went into the Commons first. The Liberal Democrats wave
:49:47. > :49:49.
:49:49. > :49:55.it through. When it got to the House of Lords it got into trouble.
:49:55. > :49:59.There are over 1000 amendments to the health and welfare bill in the
:49:59. > :50:04.House of Lords. When you have over 200 hours of scrutiny, you have
:50:04. > :50:09.either made a catastrophic mistake, or you are so arrogant if you think
:50:09. > :50:19.you can crash this through. We are approaching Belgium where they had
:50:19. > :50:22.
:50:22. > :50:26.the best part of two years without a government. Gentle men, we know
:50:26. > :50:30.you have nothing to do so we had better let you go see you can do
:50:30. > :50:33.It it's a been half a century since the abolition of national service.
:50:33. > :50:37.And whenever the bad behaviour of Britain's youth makes the headlines,
:50:37. > :50:40.as it often does, the cry comes up to restore it. Enter the
:50:41. > :50:44.government's National Citizens Service. How to fix a "broken
:50:44. > :50:47.society"? Well the Prime Minister's big idea, unveiled just before the
:50:47. > :50:54.general election, is the National Citizens Service. Not national
:50:54. > :51:01.service, mind you. There's be no square-bashing on the march to
:51:01. > :51:04.Dave's sunny uplands. Mr Cameron hailed the idea by referencing
:51:04. > :51:10.Mahatma Gandhi's maxim that: "The best way to find yourself is to
:51:10. > :51:14.lose yourself in the service of others." This summer, the programme
:51:14. > :51:18.will be rolled out to 30,000 16 year olds. But eventually, the PM
:51:18. > :51:28.wants all them to take part. The aim is a more responsible and
:51:28. > :51:36.
:51:36. > :51:43.engaged youth. A goal even more pressing since last summers' riots.
:51:43. > :51:48.Tell me, how many 16 year-olds are best in this country? 600,000 at
:51:48. > :51:57.any one time, 8,000 took part in our pilot last year. And, how long
:51:57. > :52:01.will it take to cover, to meet this goal of 600,000 being involved?
:52:01. > :52:05.will take it a step at a time. 30,000 places will be made
:52:05. > :52:11.available this year, in large part because we are so pleased with the
:52:11. > :52:15.results last year. We are committed to 90,000 places in 2014. We have
:52:15. > :52:25.to make a case for it to the Treasury and public, this is a
:52:25. > :52:29.substantial involvement -- investment. Last year, nine out of
:52:29. > :52:35.10 kids who took part said they would recommend it to their friends.
:52:35. > :52:41.We are sitting on something very powerful. The current rate of
:52:41. > :52:46.expansion will mean 23 years to get up to 600,000. We are starting with
:52:46. > :52:52.something new. On the evidence we have had so far, it has had such a
:52:52. > :52:56.positive impact on young people, building their confidence, the soft
:52:56. > :53:00.skills employers have said they need, connecting them with their
:53:00. > :53:05.communities and how to make a difference. If we continue down
:53:05. > :53:12.this track, and build greater awareness, more people will come
:53:12. > :53:20.forward. But, do you have a target date in your mind when you would
:53:20. > :53:25.hope to see everybody covered? that is the long-term aspiration.
:53:25. > :53:29.What I have in my mind is the 30,000 figure this year. Then may
:53:29. > :53:34.have to make a case, it has to work for the taxpayer. Is there any
:53:34. > :53:39.stage way you would consider making this compulsory. Not at this stage.
:53:39. > :53:43.That is not the direction, our mission is to make it as compelling
:53:43. > :53:48.as possible, so many more young people want to take part because
:53:48. > :53:55.they see the value of it for themselves, their employers seek
:53:55. > :53:58.its value. They understand it is not policy now. But, in your view,
:53:59. > :54:04.sitting as you do at the moment, you would not consider making this
:54:04. > :54:12.a compulsory scheme for 16 year- olds? That is the prime minister's
:54:12. > :54:16.decision ultimately. It is not the intention. This started in 2005
:54:16. > :54:20.when David Cameron became Leader of the Opposition. He wanted to do
:54:20. > :54:25.more for young people. We are not good as a country helping young
:54:25. > :54:29.people make that transition to adulthood. Can we, government,
:54:29. > :54:33.charities, work together to construct a modern version of
:54:33. > :54:38.national service which isn't compulsory, which doesn't have a
:54:38. > :54:42.military dimension, which pressures kids together from different
:54:42. > :54:52.backgrounds to have a, expense which challenges them and gives
:54:52. > :54:52.
:54:52. > :54:57.them skills. If it is as good as you say. Why would you make it
:54:57. > :55:02.compulsory? We want a track of proving its value to young people,
:55:02. > :55:06.parents, schools, businesses and ultimately the tax payer. Our
:55:06. > :55:13.belief is we can make it so compelling, it will become a rite
:55:13. > :55:18.of passage for young people. think it sounds a good idea, I am
:55:18. > :55:26.sure it will expand people's horizons, it will be useful and fun.
:55:26. > :55:30.But, it only lasts three weeks. The old National Service used to last
:55:30. > :55:40.for two years. I do not think putting people together, good idea
:55:40. > :55:43.
:55:43. > :55:53.that it might be, it will cost �37 million? It is lovely, warm and
:55:53. > :55:54.
:55:55. > :55:59.cuddly. You are slightly too old. What people want is jobs. It sounds
:55:59. > :56:03.great but all young people want to hear is, how can I get a job? I
:56:03. > :56:07.can't find work. A lot of young people are attracted to this
:56:07. > :56:12.because they know it will look good on their CV. Employers say what
:56:12. > :56:18.they're missing from young people are confidence. This programme is
:56:18. > :56:25.helping to develop it. If it is only three weeks. They can pack a
:56:25. > :56:33.lot into three weeks. We can pack and out into one out of
:56:33. > :56:37.broadcasting. Time now to see what else has been happening over the
:56:37. > :56:41.last seven days. Here's the week in 60 seconds.
:56:41. > :56:44.The week started some nifty Lib Dem positioning on the Health Bill,
:56:44. > :56:48.with Nick Clegg writing to Lib Dem activists promising to back more
:56:48. > :56:53.amendments. I do not know whether he supports the bill or opposes it.
:56:53. > :56:57.I support it. Oh, he supports it! Leveson finally showed us the money.
:56:57. > :57:07.Exactly how much does it cost to buy a police horse? Sorry I mean
:57:07. > :57:21.
:57:21. > :57:24.police force! Three �150,000 in cash. That is a lot of ponies. As
:57:24. > :57:26.one protest came to a close, another stepped up a gear, as anti-
:57:26. > :57:29.workfare campaigners occupied the golden arches.
:57:29. > :57:33.While union leader Len McCLuskey declared he was going for gold,
:57:33. > :57:36.with a plan to disrupt the Olympics. And, who said two wheels are better
:57:36. > :57:44.than four? Boris Johnson unveiled his new Routemaster buses. Although
:57:44. > :57:52.at �1 million a piece, it means he couldn't afford a driver.
:57:52. > :58:00.What about the horse? It is a brilliant story. It will define the
:58:00. > :58:05.whole inquiry. There was a Channel 4 comedy, the kind of thing you
:58:05. > :58:10.would have expected in that. David Cameron was in Brussels wanted to
:58:10. > :58:19.talk about the economy, and the question was, did you ride on
:58:19. > :58:24.Rebekah Brooks's horse? And the answer was, yes. But the horse is
:58:24. > :58:30.no longer, you can't even interviewed the horse. You see,
:58:30. > :58:37.everybody is talking about it. wonder if it gave an exclusive
:58:37. > :58:41.interview? Thanks to our guests. The One